Re: [mailop] Problems with freenet mails

[John Levine via mailop]

In article <0bb4f8da-c245-cd70-0dee-60801aa3c...@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> 
you write:
>On 6/26/19 9:15 AM, John Levine via mailop wrote:
>> Once again, with free services, sometimes you get what you pay for.
> ...

>The organization in this context /seems/ /to/ /have/ [1] a local policy 
>that requires email purportedly from their users to their users to go 
>through their MSA and reject such email at their MTA.
>
>That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Some mail systems have a goal of delivering the legitimate mail that
that their users want.  Some evidently don't.  Personally I would
prefer to use the first kind, but opinions apparently vary.

There are free mail systems that manage to deal with this situation
without losing legitimate mail.

R's,
John

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Re: [mailop] Problems with freenet mails

[Jost Krieger via mailop]

Am 26.06.2019 um 14:52 schrieb Tobias Matthaeus via mailop:
Unfortunately, some mail users on the mail server I am maintaining 
have a problem with Freenet. Does one of you have such a problem or 
even better: Is there a Freenet postmaster who can take care of it?


The following scenario:

A Freenet user writes an e-mail from bspw us...@freenet.de 
to us...@externedomain.de 

The e-mail address us...@externedomain.de 
is again hosted on my mail server and 
is provided with redirections. One of the redirects is for example 
us...@freenet.de 


The e-mail from us...@freenet.de to 
us...@externedomain.de is now bounced 
on delivery to us...@freenet.de with the note:


relay=emig.freenet.de [195.4.92.216]:25, 
delay=1.3, delays=0.94/0.19/0.16/0.03, dsn=5.0.0, status=bounced (host 
emig.freenet.de [195.4.92.216] said: 587 
Please use submission (587) for local to local mail. (in reply to MAIL 
FROM command))


You are not explicitly saying if the forwarded mail still has an 
envelope sender of us...@freenet.de, but I will assume that.


I've been preaching for quite a few years that same envelope sender 
forwarding is no longer a good idea for totally different reasons.


The main use of the envelope sender is for bounces and a few other 
notifications.
The majority of today's mail users have only a very shady idea of the 
workings of internet mail. If they get a bounce for a mail from an 
address they never sent something to, they will not understand it. Even 
if there is some info about the original message in the bounce mail, 
which some recipients wont even send (except for the recipient's 
address), chances are the bounce will be "helpfully" mistreated by the 
senders mail system.


And, still worse, the original sender can do *nothing* about it.

SRS doesn't help here at all, BTW.

If a user-directed forward doesn't work, the person responsible for the 
forwarding should be informed, not the original sender.


So, please, reset the envelope sender to something like 
real-u...@externedomain.de, or whatever your mail system may use to 
prohibit forwarding. Otherwise you have set up a loop.


There are problems with this approach, of course. If the recipient 
doesn't read his original address, ever, things won't get noticed.


Jost


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Re: [mailop] Problems with freenet mails

[Grant Taylor via mailop]

On 6/26/19 9:15 AM, John Levine via mailop wrote:

Once again, with free services, sometimes you get what you pay for.


I don't see what the price of the Freenet email service has to do with 
anything.


Each and every single organization has the freedom to run their email 
infrastructure however they want.


The organization in this context /seems/ /to/ /have/ [1] a local policy 
that requires email purportedly from their users to their users to go 
through their MSA and reject such email at their MTA.


That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I see no problem at all with any organization making that same policy. 
So, what does the price of the service from said organization have to do 
with this?


[1] I don't know if Freenet has any such policy or not.  I'm suggesting 
that they might based on what little I've seen.  Such a policy would 
explain the symptoms being discussed.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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Re: [mailop] Problems with freenet mails

[John Levine via mailop]

In article <5cfdca56-4974-1408-e4c8-73ae0bc6a...@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> 
you write:
>It looks like Freenet has instituted a policy that all email to @freenet 
>email addresses purportedly from @freenet must go through their MSA and 
>reject any such email that doesn't go through the MSA.

Once again, with free services, sometimes you get what you pay for.

R's,
John

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Re: [mailop] Problems with freenet mails

[Grant Taylor via mailop]

On 6/26/19 6:52 AM, Tobias Matthaeus via mailop wrote:

Hello everybody,


Hi,


The following scenario:

A Freenet user writes an e-mail from bspw us...@freenet.de to 
us...@externedomain.de The e-mail address us...@externedomain.de is 
again hosted on my mail server and is provided with redirections. One 
of the redirects is for example us...@freenet.de


The e-mail from us...@freenet.de to us...@externedomain.de is now bounced 
on delivery to us...@freenet.de with the note:


It sounds like user1@freenet sends an email to user2@externedomain whom 
has their email configured to forward to user3@freenet.


Assuming that you aren't doing anything like SRS, Freenet will see an 
email coming into them from user1@freenet going to user3@freenet.


SRS would change that scenario so that Freenet would see an email coming 
into them from @externedomain to user3@freenet.


relay=emig.freenet.de [195.4.92.216]:25, 
delay=1.3, delays=0.94/0.19/0.16/0.03, dsn=5.0.0, status=bounced (host 
emig.freenet.de [195.4.92.216] said: 587 Please 
use submission (587) for local to local mail. (in reply to MAIL FROM 
command))


It looks like Freenet has instituted a policy that all email to @freenet 
email addresses purportedly from @freenet must go through their MSA and 
reject any such email that doesn't go through the MSA.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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[mailop] Problems with freenet mails

[Tobias Matthaeus via mailop]

Hello everybody,


Unfortunately, some mail users on the mail server I am maintaining have a 
problem with Freenet. Does one of you have such a problem or even better: Is 
there a Freenet postmaster who can take care of it?

The following scenario:

A Freenet user writes an e-mail from bspw us...@freenet.de to 
us...@externedomain.de
The e-mail address us...@externedomain.de is again hosted on my mail server and 
is provided with redirections. One of the redirects is for example 
us...@freenet.de

The e-mail from us...@freenet.de to us...@externedomain.de is now bounced on 
delivery to us...@freenet.de with the note:

relay=emig.freenet.de[195.4.92.216]:25, delay=1.3, delays=0.94/0.19/0.16/0.03, 
dsn=5.0.0, status=bounced (host emig.freenet.de[195.4.92.216] said: 587 Please 
use submission (587) for local to local mail. (in reply to MAIL FROM command))



Thanks,



Tobias

--
Tobias Matthaeus
Systemadministrator
Abteilung Informationstechnik

Max-Planck-Institut für Marine Mikrobiologie
Celsiusstr. 1 - D-28359 Bremen - Raum 1130
Telefon: +49 421 2028 572
Telefon: +49 421 2028 565
E-Mail: tmatt...@mpi-bremen.de

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