Re: [mailop] Gosh I love sendgrid

[Jarland Donnell via mailop]

That's just too fun not to add: 
https://github.com/mxroute/rspamd_rules/commit/9a697ba947c9a1ad4a9a543fa2984fcd0e9ecd4f


Always glad to reject a few more emails from spamgrid.

On 2021-09-11 22:23, John R Levine via mailop wrote:

Today's phish, sent directly from sendgrid to my father who has been
dead since 2019.

Relevant Received headers in the unlikely event anyone might want to
track it down:

Received: from o3.ptr4431.ordersnapp.com (o3.ptr4431.ordersnapp.com
[167.89.47.140])  by mail1.iecc.com ([64.57.183.56])
  with ESMTPS via TCP (port 20674/25) id 682323596
  tls TLS1_3_ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_AEAD sni mx1.gurus.org; 11 Sep 2021
18:41:35 -
Received: by filterdrecv-55446c4d49-sgpf9 with SMTP id
filterdrecv-55446c4d49-sgpf9-1-613CF85E-32
2021-09-11 18:41:34.618842626 + UTC m=+850909.425078822
Received: from EC2AMAZ-GM5P31T.ec2.internal (unknown)
by geopod-ismtpd-3-0 (SG) with ESMTP id PyG_AmsvSzySaVHEQAwcBQ
for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 18:41:34.502 + (UTC)

Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for 
Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. 
https://jl.ly


-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 14:41:34
From: Security Center 
To: xxx
Subject: Account Security Update 11 September, 2021

[DZGVOMC.png]
We recently detected an unusual activity, We are sorry for the
inconvience caused. Hope you are safe at home   Ꭰеаr chase member,
I'm not the only one here who's not married.We recently detected an
unusual activity. tay Safe Stay Homeon yoI'm not the only one here
who's not
married.ur J.P MorgI'm not the only one here who's not married.an CI'm
not the only one here who's not married.hase online banking account.
UnfortuI'm
not the only one here who's not married.na tely, we had to suspend
your online bankiI'm not the only one here who's not married.ng in
order to ensure
the safety of your account. I'm not the only one here who's not
married.This suspension is temporary. We require some additional
information. I'm not the only one here who's not married.We are sorry
for the inconvience caused.
Verify now
Sincerely,
ChaI'm not the only one here who's not married.se BanI'm not the only
one here who's not married.king

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Re: [mailop] Gosh I love sendgrid

[Chris Huff via mailop]

Wow. I’m used to weird text from some source being copied and pasted, and I’m 
used to obvious phishing language, but I think this is the first time I’ve seen 
both in one email. It’s very jarring.

> On Sep 11, 2021, at 8:23 PM, John R Levine via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> Today's phish, sent directly from sendgrid to my father who has been dead 
> since 2019.
> 
> Relevant Received headers in the unlikely event anyone might want to track it 
> down:
> 
> Received: from o3.ptr4431.ordersnapp.com (o3.ptr4431.ordersnapp.com 
> [167.89.47.140])  by mail1.iecc.com ([64.57.183.56])
>  with ESMTPS via TCP (port 20674/25) id 682323596
>  tls TLS1_3_ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_AEAD sni mx1.gurus.org; 11 Sep 2021 
> 18:41:35 -
> Received: by filterdrecv-55446c4d49-sgpf9 with SMTP id 
> filterdrecv-55446c4d49-sgpf9-1-613CF85E-32
>2021-09-11 18:41:34.618842626 + UTC m=+850909.425078822
> Received: from EC2AMAZ-GM5P31T.ec2.internal (unknown)
>by geopod-ismtpd-3-0 (SG) with ESMTP id PyG_AmsvSzySaVHEQAwcBQ
>for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 18:41:34.502 + (UTC)
> 
> Regards,
> John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for 
> Dummies",
> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 14:41:34
> From: Security Center 
> To: xxx
> Subject: Account Security Update 11 September, 2021
> 
> [DZGVOMC.png]
> We recently detected an unusual activity, We are sorry for the inconvience 
> caused. Hope you are safe at home   Ꭰеаr chase member,
> I'm not the only one here who's not married.We recently detected an unusual 
> activity. tay Safe Stay Homeon yoI'm not the only one here who's not
> married.ur J.P MorgI'm not the only one here who's not married.an CI'm not 
> the only one here who's not married.hase online banking account. UnfortuI'm
> not the only one here who's not married.na tely, we had to suspend your 
> online bankiI'm not the only one here who's not married.ng in order to ensure
> the safety of your account. I'm not the only one here who's not married.This 
> suspension is temporary. We require some additional information. I'm not the 
> only one here who's not married.We are sorry for the inconvience caused.
> Verify now
> Sincerely,
> ChaI'm not the only one here who's not married.se BanI'm not the only one 
> here who's not married.king
> 
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[John Levine via mailop]

In article <1967837452.10796.1608741683...@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> you 
write:
>> ESPs are well within their rights to refuse to do business with some 
>> customers. 
>> 
>I am pretty sure that if an ESP refused to do business with any customer from 
>a specific ethnic group, or
>prohibited email about LGBTIQ issues, that would not be considered within 
>their rights. At least, it would not
>be so in many European countries. So it is not that simple :-)

In the US we have "protected classes" of people against whom one
cannot discriminate, defined by race, gender, age, disability, and
veteran status.

Antivax cranks are definitely not such a group.

My opinions about antivax stuff may be stronger than others because I
am old enough to have a smallpox vaccination scar on my shoulder, to
have known polio victims who walked with braces and canes, and around
1960 having been in the hospital ward with the iron lung at the end
and where they burned everything I touched because they thought I
might have had polio. I had been vaccinated but they weren't yet sure
how effective it was. (Very, it turned out.) Fortunately, it was just
a bad cold.

R's,
John
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Jay Hennigan via mailop]

On 12/22/20 12:34, John Levine via mailop wrote:

In article  you write:


The only basis on which these emails should be judged is on whether
they're spam or malware.


This suggests you're OK with child pornography and beheading videos so
long as subscribers ask for them. And what about the Malware of the
Day club?


Ignoring the obviously illegal child pornography and malware cases, if 
someone affirmatively requests to receive beheading videos, or videos of 
cute kittens, or stock tips, or


then I'm OK with Sendgrid delivering them.

In the case of Sendgrid, speaking from my personal experience, they send 
quite a bit of material that I have definitely NOT affirmatively 
requested to receive, much of it to addresses that have never sent email 
to anyone or subscribed to anything but are easily guessed.


Most of the content isn't offensive such as beheading videos, it's the 
typical webinar/whitepaper cruft and sales pitches, but it's definitely 
NOT anything I've ever asked to receive, and Sendgrid is sending it on 
behalf of people that I have never heard of or done business with. It 
isn't the content which is objectionable, it's the lack of consent.


This has been going on for a long time and is separate and apart from 
their relatively recent delivery of phishing and 419 scams.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Vittorio Bertola via mailop]

> Il 23/12/2020 13:13 Laura Atkins via mailop  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> 
> The discussion is simpler than that. Sendgrid owns their network. 
> Sendgrid gets to make the rules about what is allowed on their network. 
> 
> Spam isn’t illegal, yet they prohibit it. 
> 
> Gambling related email isn’t illegal, yet many ESPs prohibit it. 
> 
> Payday loan related email isn’t illegal, yet many ESPs prohibit it. 
> 
> I can continue to go down the list of types of email that ESPs prohibit, 
> even when the mail is opt-in, but what’s the point.
> 
> ESPs are well within their rights to refuse to do business with some 
> customers. 
> 
I am pretty sure that if an ESP refused to do business with any customer from a 
specific ethnic group, or prohibited email about LGBTIQ issues, that would not 
be considered within their rights. At least, it would not be so in many 
European countries. So it is not that simple :-)

--

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bert...@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bert...@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia 23.12.2020 o godz. 12:13:25 Laura Atkins via mailop pisze:
> 
> Spam isn’t illegal, yet they prohibit it. 

There are at least few countries where spam *is* illegal.

> Gambling related email isn’t illegal, yet many ESPs prohibit it. 

In many countries gambling operators (casinos etc.) need a government
license to operate in that particular country, and advertising gambling that
does *not* have such license *is* illegal.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Laura Atkins via mailop]

> On 23 Dec 2020, at 11:55, Vittorio Bertola via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Il 22/12/2020 21:56 Mark E. Jeftovic via mailop  ha 
>> scritto:
>> 
>> There are clear, existing, unambiguous laws against this, and nobody 
>> questions any entity who not only declines to facilitate this but actively 
>> purges it from their platforms.
>> 
>> Where I have a problem is the idea that infrastructure vendors should take 
>> action against all content John Levine finds irresponsible. Alternative 
>> views on COVID, and the vaccine, if we must get specific, can not in any 
>> reasonable stretch be put into the same bucket as child pornography and 
>> beheading videos. Trying to make that argument is what is really 
>> irresponsible.
>> 
> This thread seems to be reinventing the policy wheel of the discussion about 
> illegal vs harmful content. Illegal content is illegal and no one is allowed 
> to post or redistribute it.

The discussion is simpler than that. Sendgrid owns their network. Sendgrid gets 
to make the rules about what is allowed on their network. 

Spam isn’t illegal, yet they prohibit it. 

Gambling related email isn’t illegal, yet many ESPs prohibit it. 

Payday loan related email isn’t illegal, yet many ESPs prohibit it. 

I can continue to go down the list of types of email that ESPs prohibit, even 
when the mail is opt-in, but what’s the point.

ESPs are well within their rights to refuse to do business with some customers. 

laura



-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Vittorio Bertola via mailop]

> Il 22/12/2020 21:56 Mark E. Jeftovic via mailop  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> 
> There are clear, existing, unambiguous laws against this, and nobody 
> questions any entity who not only declines to facilitate this but actively 
> purges it from their platforms.
> 
> Where I have a problem is the idea that infrastructure vendors should 
> take action against all content John Levine finds irresponsible. Alternative 
> views on COVID, and the vaccine, if we must get specific, can not in any 
> reasonable stretch be put into the same bucket as child pornography and 
> beheading videos. Trying to make that argument is what is really 
> irresponsible.
> 
This thread seems to be reinventing the policy wheel of the discussion about 
illegal vs harmful content. Illegal content is illegal and no one is allowed to 
post or redistribute it. Harmful content is not illegal, yet it can seriously 
harm people; antivax propaganda, and fake news in general, fall into this 
category. The problem with harmful content is that, not being addressed by a 
law, it is generally ill defined, both in terms of what it is and of what you 
are supposed to do with it. There is also an additional dimension to this 
discussion: content which is illegal in one country can be just harmful in 
another, or even perfectly legitimate in a third one.

In general, it is up to each person and company to decide what to do with 
harmful content, and to decide what they think of other people and companies 
that adopt policies about it.

However, there is growing agreement that media and content distribution 
platforms with dominant roles should not define and handle "harmful content" on 
their own terms only, as this may lead to censorship of legitimate views from 
one side, and to mass uncontrolled circulation of harmful content on the other, 
as these platforms have an economic incentive not to remove any content, since 
they make money out of content distribution.

This is leading many countries to establish laws that turn certain kinds of 
harmful content into illegal content and/or define how platforms should deal 
with harmful content, often including procedures to judge the content and to 
review the judgement, and timelines for removal.

This has also created a bit of bad image around the Internet content industry 
as a whole, as "these are people that make a lot of money by spreading hate and 
harmful things, and hide under free expression excuses to continue doing so". 
So this also explains why part of the industry is now (over?) reacting.

For some reason, mass mailing services have always been under the radar, partly 
because mass mailing of harmful content is almost always spam independently 
from the content itself, but also because social networks are a much more 
common way of spreading out harmful content at scale. At this point in time, I 
don't think that there are requirements for email service providers to be 
active against harmful content. There definitely are expectations about it in 
some political spheres, though. But in the end, at this point in time, there is 
no "right" policy and we have to accept that different people will have 
different approaches.

--

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bert...@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bert...@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop]

Am 22.12.20 um 02:56 schrieb Eric Tykwinski via mailop:
> Seriously, this is probably political…  Not saying I agree, but unless it’s 
> spam, i.e. unwanted by your recipients,
> then you just have a bunch of wack jobs as clients and keep it at that.

As John has stated in his original mail, it was spam.

I think in most cases the 
subjectively-undesirable-but-not-illegal-and-not-unsolicited communication is a 
strawman
argument. In my experience, subjectively-undesirable-but-not-illegal content 
such as anti-vaxxing misinformation, fake
dating invitations, dubious investment opportunities are most often sent using 
spam mechanisms to people who did not
subscribe to that stuff.

We're not talking about social media communities sharing their favorite 
conspiracy theories, we're talking about Spam,
Spam, Spam, lovely Spam delivered into people's inboxes. It would be really 
helpful to stop discussing content issues in
the context of spam. As a religious person, I would be just as upset about 
religious spam as about any other. As a
political person, I'd be upset about political spam, even if I share the views 
expressed by it.

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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Alex King via mailop]

On 23/12/20 6:24 am, Mark Fletcher via mailop wrote:
On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 9:53 PM Rob McEwen via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:



The moment "spam" gets away from "consent" and goes into "content"
(specifically *legal* content) - there are enormous problems -
because
it then becomes one person's often very subjective opinion - against
another' subjective opinion - about the content. So I 100% strongly
disagree with this opinion that Sendgrid should be the political
"thought police" for LEGAL content that is sent from their platform. 



I've never understood this line of thinking. Sendgrid is not the 
government. It's a company. If you disagree with whatever choices they 
make about how they run their company, you can go somewhere else.


Mark
(whose service most definitely does not allow some types of legal content)

I've never understood your line of thinking Mark.  The government, 
through democratic majority (in some countries) decisionmaking, gets to 
set the rules.  But most civilized societies include anti-discrimination 
rules.  The majority of citizens may be women but discrimination against 
men should not be allowed.  Just because the majority in a few anglo 
societies are white people, they should not be allowed to discriminate 
against blacks.


Sure at an individual level, people should be able to choose however 
they like.  But at a company level, if you're your town's largest 
employer, or if you in conjunction with a group of similar thinking 
companies have significant power in the (say email provision) market 
place, then you should not be discriminating.


It's not good enough for a few executives in a few companies to be the 
"thought police" for a society. It's not good enough even for a majority 
opinion to be the "thought police".  Companies simply shouldn't 
discriminate.


Alex

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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Mark E. Jeftovic via mailop]

On 2020-12-22 3:34 PM, John Levine via mailop wrote:
> In article  you write:
>> The only basis on which these emails should be judged is on whether
>> they're spam or malware.
> This suggests you're OK with child pornography and beheading videos so
> long as subscribers ask for them. And what about the Malware of the
> Day club?

John, I would have expected better from you. If you want to be taken
seriously, then don't make asinine mis-characterizations like this.

There are clear, existing, unambiguous laws against this, and nobody
questions any entity who not only declines to facilitate this but
actively purges it from their platforms.

Where I have a problem is the idea that infrastructure vendors should
take action against all content John Levine finds irresponsible.
Alternative views on COVID, and the vaccine, if we must get specific,
can not in any reasonable stretch be put into the same bucket as child
pornography and beheading videos. Trying to make /that/ argument is what
is really irresponsible.

> As someone else already said, Sendgrid is not the government. They
> have every right to decline to sign up undesirable customers.

Yes, sendgrid is not the government, and neither are you. As far as I
knew this thread isn't about Sendgrid refusing to take on customers who
are sending out vaccine skepticism emails. It's about /you /thinking
/Sendgrid should /not take on people who are sending out those emails. 

You aren't sendgrid, so unless it's spam, this really isn't your problem.

- mark

>
>
> R's,
> John
>
> PS: As we all know, every complex problem has an answer that is clear,
> simple, and wrong.
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[John Levine via mailop]

In article  you write:
>
>The only basis on which these emails should be judged is on whether
>they're spam or malware.

This suggests you're OK with child pornography and beheading videos so
long as subscribers ask for them. And what about the Malware of the
Day club?

As someone else already said, Sendgrid is not the government. They
have every right to decline to sign up undesirable customers.

R's,
John

PS: As we all know, every complex problem has an answer that is clear,
simple, and wrong.
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Mark E. Jeftovic via mailop]

The only basis on which these emails should be judged is on whether
they're spam or malware.

It is always within the purview of private companies to put whatever
parameters they want around who they do business with. Sometimes the
risk/reward incentives just aren't there. But being an internet
infrastructure supplier and subjecting your clients' content to your own
subjective moral values is highly problematic.

At the risk of talking my own book, (I did write an entire book on this)
what I said specifically around mailer services and citing Mailchimps
banning of "anti-vaxxer" content was this:

/"What you or I believe about vaccinations is immaterial. In my
mind, it is indefensible for an infrastructure provider to make any
subjective opinion about the content of its downstream, paying
customers. The only thing an email service should concern itself
with is whether the recipient list is clean, that their user is not
spamming anybody, and that the content being sent is virus free.
That’s it. //
/

/What’s in the messages shouldn’t be anybody’s business other than
the sender and the recipients, those people who have actually
opted-in to the list. //
/

/Alas, increasingly this is not the world we live in. Service
providers seem to think it’s ok to increasingly moderate the content
of their customers, and all this looks to get worse before it gets
better."/

The reason why this is a problem is because  the linear extrapolations
of this practice at the extreme become dystopian:

/the problem with cancel culture is that Irredeemable Miscreants
also buy MacBook Pro laptops, they may drive to Irredeemable
Miscreant rallies in Teslas and eat vegan soy patties. The only way
to truly guarantee the sterility of all interactions would be
through the enactment of a top-down command-and-control society in
which nobody can do anything until everybody involved can prove
their moral purity. It quickly becomes dystopian, which is why even
a hypothetical impulse toward this “ideal” should be resisted on all
fronts. //
/

/There are far scarier things in the culture wars of today than
Irredeemable Miscreants. Whoever those may be, they are almost
certainly a minuscule rabble of dysfunctional fringe types who would
be completely irrelevant if it weren’t for the incessant din of
hysterics shrieking about how awful they are. There is only one
magic bullet that is guaranteed to kill a truly irredeemable idea,
and that is disinterest./

We've seen this already in recent times as people get hounded out of
restaurants or having their careers destroyed for having voted the wrong
way, liking the wrong tweet or being associated with the wrong political
belief. All of this impetus toward content moderation should really be
called for what it is: thought moderation. If you want to moderate
content, you want to moderate thinking.

/"No man, no group and no nation has the right to any man’s
individual freedom. No matter how pure the motive, how great the
emergency, how high the principle, such action is nothing but
tyranny. It is never justified. The question is: are we able to face
the consequences of democracy?"/

/-- John Parsons, Freedom is a Double-Edged Sword./

- mark

On 2020-12-22 12:24 PM, Mark Fletcher via mailop wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 9:53 PM Rob McEwen via mailop
> mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:
>
>
> The moment "spam" gets away from "consent" and goes into "content"
> (specifically *legal* content) - there are enormous problems -
> because
> it then becomes one person's often very subjective opinion - against
> another' subjective opinion - about the content. So I 100% strongly
> disagree with this opinion that Sendgrid should be the political
> "thought police" for LEGAL content that is sent from their platform. 
>
>
> I've never understood this line of thinking. Sendgrid is not the
> government. It's a company. If you disagree with whatever choices they
> make about how they run their company, you can go somewhere else.
>
> Mark
> (whose service most definitely does not allow some types of legal content)
>
> ___
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> https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
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Mark E. Jeftovic 
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AxisOfEasy.com  - /For full coverage of a world
gone full cyberpunk.../
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Mark Fletcher via mailop]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 9:53 PM Rob McEwen via mailop 
wrote:

>
> The moment "spam" gets away from "consent" and goes into "content"
> (specifically *legal* content) - there are enormous problems - because
> it then becomes one person's often very subjective opinion - against
> another' subjective opinion - about the content. So I 100% strongly
> disagree with this opinion that Sendgrid should be the political
> "thought police" for LEGAL content that is sent from their platform.


I've never understood this line of thinking. Sendgrid is not the
government. It's a company. If you disagree with whatever choices they make
about how they run their company, you can go somewhere else.

Mark
(whose service most definitely does not allow some types of legal content)
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia 22.12.2020 o godz. 00:39:47 Rob McEwen via mailop pisze:
> and the same article FB was using (actually, a few different
> articles did this) said that Remdesivir was our BEST med for
> fighting COVID, yet the WHO recently recommended against use of
> Remdesivir due to the WHO *now* claiming that it is ineffective. My
> point? The "science" is often NOT as settled as many claim - as
> we've ESPECIALLY learn in 2020 - and so this is all the more reason

Off topic: that's exactly how science works - by constantly contradicting
it's own theories. That's the very heart of the scientific method, which
many people seem to not understand. Science is not about proving something
is true. It is usually impossible to prove that some theory is true. It can
be only considered as "probably true unless proven otherwise". What is
possible - and what science actually DOES - is to prove that some theory
that was previously considered true, is actually false. And it's doing that
over and over...
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Rob McEwen via mailop]

On 12/21/2020 9:55 PM, John Levine via mailop wrote:

when antivax nonsense persuades people who would otherwise get
vaccinated that they shouldn't, they or people they infect may die.

The politest term I have for Sendgrid's actions here is deeply irresponsible.



The moment "spam" gets away from "consent" and goes into "content" 
(specifically *legal* content) - there are enormous problems - because 
it then becomes one person's often very subjective opinion - against 
another' subjective opinion - about the content. So I 100% strongly 
disagree with this opinion that Sendgrid should be the political 
"thought police" for LEGAL content that is sent from their platform. 
Someone might respond... "But but but - lives are at stake" (1) a 
pro-lifer could make the SAME argument about Sendgrid allowing some 
organization like Planned Parenthood to use their platform! So should 
that pro-life person or group's subjective/personal political opinion 
prevail? AND (2) this wouldn't be the first time that the "conventional 
wisdom" about COVID from on-high got something very very wrong and they 
later changed their minds. For example, I'm old enough to remember when 
Facebook fact-checkers were linking to articles that used as their 
"proof" a study that has since been pulled for being fraudulent 
(Surgisphere), and the same article FB was using (actually, a few 
different articles did this) said that Remdesivir was our BEST med for 
fighting COVID, yet the WHO recently recommended against use of 
Remdesivir due to the WHO *now* claiming that it is ineffective. My 
point? The "science" is often NOT as settled as many claim - as we've 
ESPECIALLY learn in 2020 - and so this is all the more reason we 
shouldn't be the "thought police" who try to shut down opposing viewpoints.


PS - I'm NOT an antivaxxer - my 4 (now young adult) children got ALL of 
the vaccines recommended by the government and the major medical 
organizations. ALL. OF. THEM. (Does that sound like an antivaxxer?) But 
there was ONE optional one that our doctor recommended that my wife and 
I didn't feel comfortable with. GUESS WHAT - it LATER got pulled off the 
market due to causing too much harmful collateral damage. If ESPs 
existed back then (early 2000s), I abhor the idea that a healthy debate 
about that one that got pulled off the market - might have been silenced 
by the "thought police"!


--
Rob McEwen

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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Chris via mailop]

On 2020-12-21 22:15, Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote:

On 12/21/20 18:55, John Levine via mailop wrote:


The politest term I have for Sendgrid's actions here is deeply 
irresponsible.


Agreed, but not solely because of the content of the message. It, like 
much of what comes from Sendgrid, is bulk unsolicited email. Sendgrid 
are spammers. It doesn't matter whether they spam encouraging or 
discouraging COVID vaccination, it's still spam.


Agreed in spades.  As spammeister in the largest company in Canada (it 
isn't anymore), it was my job to keep spam out.  Yes, there were many 
times where things were brought to my attention because they were 
objectionable on other grounds, that contained an ask to "block all of 
".


In EACH case, I remembered the painful lessons of companies getting into 
embarrassing trouble when explanations of broad blocking are asked, 
especially out in the public (there are many times where such things 
have become almost front page news), so you have to be *careful* even 
with the "my hardware/my people my rules" defense.


I didn't block competitors (many of which we did business with with 
subcomponents/joint projects or industry standards so it would be 
slitting our own throat) as competitors, I blocked ONLY their HR 
(mostly) because their job solicitations were spam and had generated 
complaints.  That was my story, I stuck with it, and taught senior 
management that was the answer you always give when asked.


I knew, that if something were to become public, we could embarrass the 
sender far more than they could us.


Strangely enough, never got any pushback from anyone about those (where 
"block " I translated to block "this thing" because it's spam).

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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Jay Hennigan via mailop]

On 12/21/20 18:55, John Levine via mailop wrote:


Also, while the Skokie march was phenomenally offensive, at that time
there was no issue of physical harm or injury from the march. But now,
when antivax nonsense persuades people who would otherwise get
vaccinated that they shouldn't, they or people they infect may die.


And, it's spam. Regardless of the offensiveness or danger of the 
conTent, there was no conSent.



The politest term I have for Sendgrid's actions here is deeply irresponsible.


Agreed, but not solely because of the content of the message. It, like 
much of what comes from Sendgrid, is bulk unsolicited email. Sendgrid 
are spammers. It doesn't matter whether they spam encouraging or 
discouraging COVID vaccination, it's still spam.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[John Levine via mailop]

In article <6dd6bf78-40da-4b88-afff-2150598f0...@truenet.com> you write:
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>Seriously, this is probably political…  Not saying I agree, but unless it’s 
>spam, i.e. unwanted by your
>recipients, then you just have a bunch of wack jobs as clients and keep it at 
>that.
>If it helps ease your conscience, think of it this way:
>https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/rights-protesters/skokie-case-how-i-came-represent-free-speech-rights-nazis

But that's not comparable at all. The issue in the Skokie march was
whether the government would allow the Nazis to march. Sendgrid is not
the government and does not have to provide service to anyone, give or
take rules about racial discrimination and the like which do not apply
here.

Also, while the Skokie march was phenomenally offensive, at that time
there was no issue of physical harm or injury from the march. But now,
when antivax nonsense persuades people who would otherwise get
vaccinated that they shouldn't, they or people they infect may die.

The politest term I have for Sendgrid's actions here is deeply irresponsible.

R's,
John
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Eric Tykwinski via mailop]

Seriously, this is probably political…  Not saying I agree, but unless it’s 
spam, i.e. unwanted by your recipients, then you just have a bunch of wack jobs 
as clients and keep it at that.
If it helps ease your conscience, think of it this way: 
https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/rights-protesters/skokie-case-how-i-came-represent-free-speech-rights-nazis
 

Honestly, half of my family is jewish and I had relatives in concentration 
camps, but I would like to think by keeping that vitriol in memory we can 
remember to denounce it.

Sincerely,

Eric Tykwinski
TrueNet, Inc.
P: 610-429-8300

> On Dec 21, 2020, at 8:35 PM, Jay Hennigan via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> On 12/21/20 17:21, John Levine via mailop wrote:
>> Now they're sending antivax spam from the pseudoscientific Weston A. Price 
>> foundation.
> 
> As long as the checks don't bounce, I don't think Sendgrid really cares if 
> the mail does.
> 
> -- 
> Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
> Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
> 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
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Re: [mailop] Gosh, I love sendgrid

[Jay Hennigan via mailop]

On 12/21/20 17:21, John Levine via mailop wrote:

Now they're sending antivax spam from the pseudoscientific Weston A. Price 
foundation.


As long as the checks don't bounce, I don't think Sendgrid really cares 
if the mail does.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
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