Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Benny Pedersen via mailop]

John R Levine via mailop skrev den 2023-03-06 18:55:


Linode has a bunch of different IP address blocks and I would expect
recipients to block the ones that send annoying amounts of spam.
That's what I do.  So as likely as not, you're just lucky that you
don't have annoying neighbors.


linode do pr new vps give a ipv4 range with /24, but still only one 
usable to use, each vps can ask for more ipv4, but this will be another 
/24, doh :)


for ipv6 just ask, unlimited free, free as in /64 only
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[John Levine via mailop]

It appears that Laura Atkins via mailop  said:
>In the B2C space domain reputation is more important than IP reputation 
>anyway. 
>
>You may also want to look at SSDNodes for VPSes. 

Looks fantastic except for the IPv6-only part.

I see the larger ones have both v4/v6, makes sense if you want servers that big.

R's,
John
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 10:52:35 +, Laura Atkins via mailop 
wrote:

>I have had a number of clients over the last 3 or 4 years using SES without 
>any delivery problems that we could attribute to the IP addresses. Once we ran 
>through fixing the things under their control, delivery was great. 

I have a couple of recent (last two months) clients using SES who also saw no
problems, but then they had open rates that climbed to above 50% and complaint
rates close to the cube root of zero.

mdr

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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[John R Levine via mailop]

Huh. We don't have any issues sending email to them from Linode, including

a small number from one of our new IP addresses I've been trying to warm up.


Linode has a bunch of different IP address blocks and I would expect 
recipients to block the ones that send annoying amounts of spam.  That's 
what I do.  So as likely as not, you're just lucky that you don't have 
annoying neighbors.


Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Mark Fletcher via mailop]

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 6:36 AM John Stoffel  wrote:

>
> I've been using digital ocean and then moved to Linode to home my
> personal domain @stoffel.org, but then I'm spending time looking to
> move again because charter.net is my town Cable company and a bunch of
> neighbors use @charter.net emails, and they (charter) just blanket ban
> Linode IP space.
>
> Huh. We don't have any issues sending email to them from Linode, including
a small number from one of our new IP addresses I've been trying to warm up.

Mark
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Atro Tossavainen via mailop]

> I believe it, but the more relevant question is what fraction that is of the 
> total
> mail they send.  I see way more real mail than spam from them.

I can only speak to the mail we see. I am sure all of the entities
that are sending to our spamtraps mostly send good email. I simply
could not have any visibility to the rest.
 
-- 
Atro Tossavainen, Founder, Partner
Koli-Lõks OÜ (reg. no. 12815457, VAT ID EE101811635)
Tallinn, Estonia
tel. +372-5883-4269, http://www.koliloks.eu/
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Laura Atkins via mailop]

> On 5 Mar 2023, at 21:53, Mark Fletcher via mailop  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 1:15 PM John R Levine  > wrote:
>> 
>> If you need a big VM there's always AWS.  They do a surprisingly good job 
>> of managing outbound mail.  You get 62K messages/mo for free, then 10c per 
>> 1000 messages sent from a VM.
> 
> For the amount of email we send, that cost structure wouldn't work for us. 
> And I thought AWS SES didn't have a good reputation, although I admit it's 
> been awhile since I looked.

I have had a number of clients over the last 3 or 4 years using SES without any 
delivery problems that we could attribute to the IP addresses. Once we ran 
through fixing the things under their control, delivery was great. 

In the B2C space domain reputation is more important than IP reputation anyway. 

You may also want to look at SSDNodes for VPSes. 

laura 

-- 
The Delivery Experts

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com 

Email Delivery Blog: http://wordtothewise.com/blog  






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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[John Levine via mailop]

It appears that Atro Tossavainen via mailop  said:
>In February we had close to 6000 separate domains sending from
>AWS SES to our spamtraps.

I believe it, but the more relevant question is what fraction that is of the 
total
mail they send.  I see way more real mail than spam from them.

They're not perfect, but they're not awful.

R's,
John
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Mark Fletcher via mailop]

On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 1:15 PM John R Levine  wrote:

>
> If you need a big VM there's always AWS.  They do a surprisingly good job
> of managing outbound mail.  You get 62K messages/mo for free, then 10c per
> 1000 messages sent from a VM.
>

For the amount of email we send, that cost structure wouldn't work for us.
And I thought AWS SES didn't have a good reputation, although I admit it's
been awhile since I looked.

Thanks,
Mark
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Atro Tossavainen via mailop]

> You have to validate each domain you use for sending, which is a
> modest pain, but that's one of the reasons their mail stream is
> pretty clean.

Do you mean AWS SES specifically? They're consistently #4 by volume
in our dataset (occasionally even #3, rarely #5), next only to
SendGrid, ExactTarget and Mailchimp.

In February we had close to 6000 separate domains sending from
AWS SES to our spamtraps.

The corresponding number is more than 15,500 for SendGrid, less than
5500 for ExactTarget, and close to 15,000 for Mailchimp (closer to
16,000 when you take into account the fact that the senders with
freemail From's are not one, but many).

-- 
Atro Tossavainen, Founder, Partner
Koli-Lõks OÜ (reg. no. 12815457, VAT ID EE101811635)
Tallinn, Estonia
tel. +372-5883-4269, http://www.koliloks.eu/
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[John R Levine via mailop]

It also occurs to me that you don't need to do your computing and mail on 
the same VM.  Mail is rather lightweight so you could run a mail server at 
Tektonic, and send messages from other places via port 587 submission.


On Sun, 5 Mar 2023, Mark Fletcher wrote:


On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 10:20 AM John R Levine  wrote:



I've been happy with a small provider called Tektonic.  If you've never
heard of them, that's a good sign.

Thanks for the recommendation; unfortunately they wouldn't work for us.

Their largest VM is less than half the size we would need for our
databases, also they don't appear to have an API to provision new VMs.

Thanks,
Mark



Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[John R Levine via mailop]

Thanks for the recommendation; unfortunately they wouldn't work for us.

Their largest VM is less than half the size we would need for our
databases, also they don't appear to have an API to provision new VMs.


If you need a big VM there's always AWS.  They do a surprisingly good job 
of managing outbound mail.  You get 62K messages/mo for free, then 10c per 
1000 messages sent from a VM.  If you want big databases, you can run them 
in your own VM but it's easier and probably just as cheap to use one of 
their managed ones.


You have to validate each domain you use for sending, which is a modest 
pain, but that's one of the reasons their mail stream is pretty clean.


Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Mark Fletcher via mailop]

On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 10:20 AM John R Levine  wrote:

>
> I've been happy with a small provider called Tektonic.  If you've never
> heard of them, that's a good sign.
>
> Thanks for the recommendation; unfortunately they wouldn't work for us.
Their largest VM is less than half the size we would need for our
databases, also they don't appear to have an API to provision new VMs.

Thanks,
Mark
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[John R Levine via mailop]

On Sun, 5 Mar 2023, Mark Fletcher wrote:

Best I can tell, in our 9+ years, being hosted by Linode has never been an

issue wrt deliverability, and as a hosting provider, they've been nothing
but responsive and reliable. That said, they were recently bought by
Akamai, and have just raised prices. So I guess I need to start at least
paying attention to other hosting options. Who do you recommend these days?


I've been happy with a small provider called Tektonic.  If you've never 
heard of them, that's a good sign.


Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Bill Cole via mailop]

On 2023-03-05 at 11:47:07 UTC-0500 (5 Mar 2023 11:47:07 -0500)
John Levine via mailop 
is rumored to have said:

I wouldn't try to send mail from Linode if I cared about it being 
delivered.


Indeed.

Linode is a standout amongst cheap VM providers in the supply of attack 
traffic they make available from their cesspool networks. Only Digital 
Ocean is beating them. Never mind discernible spam, this crap actually 
causes availability problems. The only defense is dropping packets from 
them in bulk.


If any of my users want to get Groups.io mail that is impaired by this, 
they know how to address that issue. We're always happy to provide 
bespoke service to paying customers, but the issue hasn't come up.




--
Bill Cole
b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not Currently Available For Hire
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[Mark Fletcher via mailop]

On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 8:53 AM John Levine via mailop 
wrote:

>
> I am reasonably sure that no serious mail system uses UCEPROTECT as
> anything
> other than a very weak signal.  It's not surprising they list what other
> people list, since they list about half the net.
>
> Agreed. I think one of our existing sending IP addresses is listed in
UCEPROTECT and it's never been an issue.

I did check all the new IPs against blocklists before I started trying to
warm them up.

>There are no 'new' IP addresses any more, and in terms of providers,
> >Linode are going to reuse IPs a lot.
>
> I wouldn't try to send mail from Linode if I cared about it being
> delivered.
>
> Best I can tell, in our 9+ years, being hosted by Linode has never been an
issue wrt deliverability, and as a hosting provider, they've been nothing
but responsive and reliable. That said, they were recently bought by
Akamai, and have just raised prices. So I guess I need to start at least
paying attention to other hosting options. Who do you recommend these days?

Thanks,
Mark
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Re: [mailop] warming up IPs, Microsoft?

[John Levine via mailop]

According to Simon Greenwood via mailop :
>All those IPs are reported by UCEPROTECT and Polspam at the moment, and 
>I have seen that the 800lb gorillas seem to refer to UCEPROTECT, or at 
>least their findings coincide.

I am reasonably sure that no serious mail system uses UCEPROTECT as anything
other than a very weak signal.  It's not surprising they list what other
people list, since they list about half the net.

>There are no 'new' IP addresses any more, and in terms of providers, 
>Linode are going to reuse IPs a lot.

I wouldn't try to send mail from Linode if I cared about it being delivered.

R's,
John
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