Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
In book one of the _Aeneid_, there is a simile describing the Greek
attacker Pyrrhus which compares Pyrrhus to a snake _mala gramina pastus_
(a snake which has fed on evil grasses).
Hope this helps,
Randi Eldevik
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Dave McLean/Justine Viets-McLean wrote:
> Hello,
> I am interested in finding out the context and intended meaning of Virgil's
> quote: "A snake lurks in the grass".
> So far, I have been provided with the source:
> Eclogues 3.93: "Frigidus, o pueri (fugite hinc!), latet anguis in herba"
> ("A cold snake lurks in the grass, boys: fly hence").
> Can anyone tell me more?
> Many thanks in advance,
> Dave McLean
>
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Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
I can't tell you much about where it comes from, but it is a fairly popular quote in the middle ages - it is even turns up in der wilde Alexander! Helen Conrad-O'Briain --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:42:00 -0400 From: Andy Lafrenz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This follows up on Randi Eldevik's comments about the coluber mala gramina pastus. Actually, the phrase occurs in Book II of the Aeneid, at line 471. Virgil (Vergil?) uses a snake motif a little earlier in the same book, where the Greek commander Androgeos suddenly realizes that he has fallen in with Trojans disguised as Greeks. His horror , Virgil tells us at lines 379-382, is like one who unwittingly steps on a snake and tries to flee the enraged serpent. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
The idea of the 'cold snake' may come from Theocritus, 'Idyll' 15 (The Adonis Festival): Gorgo and Praxinoe are making their way to the festival through the crowded streets and, fearing that she may be trampled, Praxinoe mentions that since childhood she's always been terrified of "a horse and a cold snake." I suspect Vergil uses the snake in Ecl.3 as an example of the dangers found in the pastoral world. What's interesting (to me, anyway) is that the motif appears on the Ara Pacis: among the foliage on the lower register are found all sorts of creatures engaged in various activities. One of these is a snake emerging from the grass and heading toward a nest of eggs. Yet another Vergilian passage that has (coincidentally?) found its way onto this monument. jg --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
Before I get to John Geyssen's comment, one point: I thank David Wilson for correcting my typographical slip from Book 1 to Book 2 of the _Aeneid_. It _was_ purely a slip of the finger, for I certainly do know in which book of the _Aeneid_ the fall of Troy is described, and I wouldn't want anyone to think I didn't. Now, about the snake attacking the bird's nest on the Ara Pacis: I agree that it represents the dangers of the natural world, "nature red in tooth and claw" and all that. But in addition I have always thought that this particular image might have been chosen because of Homer's description in the _Iliad_ of a snake attacking baby birds in a nest. This comes in conjunction with a prophecy, by Calchas I think, about how long the Trojan War will last. So perhaps, on the Ara Pacis, we also have a subtle visual allusion to the world of heroic epic and military prowess, reminding viewers of what must be done to achieve peace, and the cost of peace. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, and sometimes even innocents must suffer, etc. John, or others, does this seem a reasonable interpretation? Best wishes, Randi Eldevik Oklahoma State University On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, John Geyssen wrote: > The idea of the 'cold snake' may come from Theocritus, 'Idyll' 15 (The > Adonis Festival): Gorgo and Praxinoe are making their way to the > festival through the crowded streets and, fearing that she may be > trampled, Praxinoe mentions that since childhood she's always been > terrified of "a horse and a cold snake." I suspect Vergil uses the > snake in Ecl.3 as an example of the dangers found in the pastoral world. > > What's interesting (to me, anyway) is that the motif appears on the Ara > Pacis: among the foliage on the lower register are found all sorts of > creatures engaged in various activities. One of these is a snake > emerging from the grass and heading toward a nest of eggs. Yet another > Vergilian passage that has (coincidentally?) found its way onto this > monument. > > jg > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You > will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe > mantovano" in the body. > --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
I wonder . . .wasn't there a religion in the ancient world that worshipped a snake as the symbol of the evil creator of the world? And isn't the egg symbolic of the soul? I realize this is fairly pop information, but I do wonder if it applies. I believe the snake worshippers were called the Ophates or something like that. Anyone have any information? Laugh at me if you must . . . but you never know . . . --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
I am not sure that anyone has actually answered the original question
of the context of the Latin tag in Virgil's poem. To hope that the
following might be of use to the person who put the question to the
Mantovani.
1. THE ORIGINAL CONTEXT OF "LATET ANGUIS IN HERBA"(Eclogues III.93)
The Third Eclogue of Virgil,tells how two herdsmen,
Menalcas and
Dam¦tas, meet and trade insults, before deciding on an am¦bæan singing
match to be umpired by Palæmon, a third herdsman. The singing match
takes place, but Palæmon cannot decide on a winner, and praises both
contestants.
The quotation "latet anguis in herba" is part of a line in
the
singing contest between two herdsmen, Menalcas and Dam¦tas, who are
trying to outdo one another in inventing lines "ex tempore". In these
rustic singing-matches, the contestants were to sing an equal number of
verses alternately. The first singer suggested a subject in his verses
which his rival had to try and outdo in as many verses on the same or a
similar subject. At one point in the contest,Dam¦tas sings "Qui legitis
flores et humi nascentia fraga,/frigidus,o pueri, fugite hinc, latet
anguis in herba"(III.92-93), the gist of which is " O herd-boys picking
flowers and strawberries,beware of the snake lurking in the grass!".
Menalcas replies "Parcite,oves,nimium procedere:non bene ripæ /
creditur:ipse aries etiam nunc vellera siccat."(III.94-95), the gist of
which is "O Sheep, beware of going too close to the water, the river
bank is dangerous (and the ram has already fallen in)!" Thus there are
dangers on land for the shepherds in Dam¦tas' lines, and dangers in the
water for the sheep in Menalcas' lines. The snake has no deeper
significance here than as an example of a natural danger on land.
2.THE LATIN TAG "LATET ANGUIS IN HERBA"(Eclogues III.93)
However, taken out of context, this quotation from Virgil has
become
almost proverbial as a Latin tag about hidden danger, ambush, deceit or
simply "Beware!".
My "Dictionary of Foreign Phrases and Classical Quotations" edited by
H.P.Jones (1923)glosses the Latin as "A Hidden Danger", while "Bohn's
Dictionary of Classical Quotations"(1895) comments on the Latin
that"Individuals, like armies,suffer most from perils that lie in
ambush."
Brewer's "Dictionary of Phrase and Fable"(5th edition,1959) explains
the English phrase"A snake in the grass" as "A hidden or hypocritical
enemy, a disguised danger." and tells us that the phrase is from Virgil.
[Under the entry "snake" he explains that the word "snake" was ( or
still is) rhyming slang "for a looking -glass,the missing portion being
'in the grass'"!]
My "Roget's Thesaurus"(1852) gives "a snake in the grass" as a phrase
denoting "a source of danger"[667] along with "the sword of Damocles"
and"proximus ardet Ucalegon"(see Æneid II.311-2).
It is also listed as an English proverb in the form "There is a snake
in the grass"["Bohn's Handbook of Proverbs"(1855)p.521;G.L. Apperson
"Wordsworth Dictionary of Proverbs"(1994)p.583.]
In the English emblem book "A Choice of Emblemes"(1586) by Geffrey
Whitney (1548-1603) the Virgilian tag "latet anguis in herba" appears
with a magnificent woodcut of a snake curled around a strawberry plant,
but no grass is depicted. (p.24). These strawberries are Virgilian (see
III.92 "fraga"). [It may be that "in herba" is here meant to be taken to
mean the strawberry plant itself, but I am not sure if "herba" can have
this meaning("plant") in Neo-Latin] The accompanying verses explain that
the snake and the strawberry symbolise deceitful and false friends of
whom one should be beware.
"Of flatteringe speeche, with sugred words beware,
Suspect the harte,whose face doth fawne, and smile,
With trusting theise, the worlde is clog'de with care,
And fewe there bee can scape theise vipers vile:
With pleasinge speeche they promise, and protest,
When hatefull hartes lie hidd within their brest.
The faithfull wight,dothe neede no collours brave,
But those that truste, in time his truthe shall trie,
Where fawning mates,can not theire credit save,
Without a cloake, to flatter, faine, and lye:
No foe so fell, nor yet soe hard to scape,
As is the foe, that fawnes with freindlie shape."
Cesare Ripa's "Iconologia" (first edition 1593, I am using Edward A.
Maser's translation (Dover Books 1971) of the 1758-60 Hertel edition
based on Ripa's 1603 edition for its text ) depicts Deceit ("Falsitas")
as a woman with a mask and various other attributes, including "a
bouquet of flowers in which a snake is hidden" which is interpreted as
representing "the misleading sweet perfume of apparent goodwill which
hides the poison of an enemy"(p.127). Here again there is no grass but
the flowers are Virgilian (see Eclogue III.92
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
WRHare wrote:
>
> I wonder . . .wasn't there a religion in the ancient world that worshipped a
> snake as the symbol of the evil creator of the world? And isn't the egg
> symbolic of the soul? I realize this is fairly pop information, but I do
> wonder if it applies. I believe the snake worshippers were called the Ophates
> or something like that. Anyone have any information? Laugh at me if you must
> . . . but you never know . . .
Interesting as these matters are I don't think they have much relevance
to Virgil.(See my other posting) The snake worshippers seem to be
attested after the coming of Christianity, in the second century A.D.(
Incidentally, I would never laugh at a fellow Mantovanus.)
1.THE EGG
The egg is not as far as I know a symbol of the soul, but rather a
symbol of the world. (e.g. in Orphism I think)
2.THE SNAKE WORSHIPPERS
The snake revering group were called the Ophites,[from a Greek word for
snake ("ophis"]by St.Irenæus( c.A.D.130-c.200) "Adversus Hæreses".1.30,
and Origen (c.A.D.185-c.254) "Contra Celsum"vi.24ff. They are thought to
be the same as the Naasseenes[ from the Hebrew for snake("nahash"
hellenized into "naas"] mentioned by St.Hippolytus(c.A.D.170-c.236)
"Hæreses"5. The Ophites and Naassenes were merely some of the many
"Gnostic" sects which arose in the second century A.D and afterwards.
The Gnostics substituted salvific "knowledge" (Gk"gnosis") brought by a
divine messenger for the faith ("pistis") in a divine Saviour required
in Christianity.Although various Gnostic groups had different stories of
the Fall and different redeemer figures,they all shared in a radical
dualism of a evil material world and a good world of the spirit. Hence
the Judaeo-Christian God as a creator of the material world was to the
Gnostic groups evil and inferior , and anyone in the Scriptures who was
portrayed as evil was actually good. Thus, for example, the Cainites
apparently revered Cain, and the Ophites and Naassenes revered the
serpent in "Genesis" as symbol of the higher True God.
Peter JVD Bryant
Perth
Western Australia
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Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
I greatly enjoyed the exchange about the snake in the grass and its evolution as described by Peter Bryant: >So it seems that by the Renaissance ,if not earlier, Virgil's snake >which in the context of the original poem was merely a dangerous >reptile, has in its long life as as a Latin tag and English proverb >and phrase become conflated with the Biblical"old serpent,which is the >Devil,andSatan"(Revelation.XX.2) to symbolise deceit. In other words I >doubt if Virgil considered the snake to be evil, merely dangerous. > >Peter JVD Bryant >Perth >Western Australia Recently on another discussion list there arose questions about another serpent, the one in Genesis 49:17. This is in the passage where the dying Jacob issues prophecies about his sons. Dan, it seems, is fated to be "a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward." Third party ambush! There doesn't seem to be any of this type of manipulation in the classical passages cited by Prof Bryant, just wiliness and hypocrisy. Does this lurking snake ever nip at horse heels in Virgil? I'm not sure the Trojan horse would count! Nancy Charlton --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
Well, here's one example of how the phrase is currently understood: "Who has not known the fear of trust betrayed, when a cuckoo is uncovered in the nest, a viper in the bosom, a snake in the grass?" (Louise Guinness, reviewing Sophia Watson's novel The Perfect Treasure in Literary Review, May 1998, p. 38). Learned disquisitions on the cuckoo in the nest and the viper in the bosom, anyone? (Like Nancy Charlton, I much enjoyed Peter Bryant's recent piece. I was beginning to wonder if Mantovanists had forgotten what the English word "context" means.) >From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
Learned? I can't vouch for this adjective being applicable to my response; but of the cuckoo, I believe she means sexual betrayal: to be cuckholded, to find someone else in your bed with your lover. As for the viper in the busom, I think this is easily understood; and it sounds very like Lady Macbeth. It also seems reminiscent of Cleopatra's death. These are my unlearned opinions, but I stick by them. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
At 21:37 98/05/14 EDT, you wrote: >Learned? I can't vouch for this adjective being applicable to my response; >but of the cuckoo, I believe she means sexual betrayal: to be cuckholded, to >find someone else in your bed with your lover. >As for the viper in the busom, I think this is easily understood; and it >sounds very like Lady Macbeth. It also seems reminiscent of Cleopatra's >death. These are my unlearned opinions, but I stick by them. >--- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You >will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, >send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe >mantovano" in the body. > > Do Cuckoos, like Starlings, invade the nests of other birds? James R. Baron Department of Classical Studies The College of William and Mary Box 8795 Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795 Phone: (757) 221-2165 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICBM: W 76d 45' N 37d 16' --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
Simon Cauchi wrote: > Well, here's one example of how the phrase is currently understood: > > "Who has not known the fear of trust betrayed, when a cuckoo is > uncovered > in the nest, a viper in the bosom, a snake in the grass?" (Louise > Guinness, > reviewing Sophia Watson's novel The Perfect Treasure in Literary > Review, > May 1998, p. 38). > > Learned disquisitions on the cuckoo in the nest and the viper in the > bosom, > anyone? Some species of cukoos are nest parasites, laying their eggs in other species' nests. They young cuckoo hatches first, then pushes the other young out of the nest so as to get all the food brought by the parent. And of course, from this, cuckold... Ken Parejko --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
(Fwd) Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass"
And don't forget Clytemnestra's dream of nursing a snake that then bit her in Aeschylus' _Libation Bearers_. Her son Orestes fulfilled the dream by killing her. --- Forwarded Message Follows --- Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:57:26 -0400 (EDT) To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: James Baron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Context of "A snake lurks in the grass" Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 21:37 98/05/14 EDT, you wrote: >Learned? I can't vouch for this adjective being applicable to my response; >but of the cuckoo, I believe she means sexual betrayal: to be cuckholded, to >find someone else in your bed with your lover. >As for the viper in the busom, I think this is easily understood; and it >sounds very like Lady Macbeth. It also seems reminiscent of Cleopatra's >death. These are my unlearned opinions, but I stick by them. >--- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You >will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, >send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe >mantovano" in the body. > > Do Cuckoos, like Starlings, invade the nests of other birds? James R. Baron Department of Classical Studies The College of William and Mary Box 8795 Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795 Phone: (757) 221-2165 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICBM: W 76d 45' N 37d 16' --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
