Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice download page: updating the text
On 6/12/24 10:39 AM, Mike Saunders wrote: On 12/06/2024 16:22, Justin Luth wrote: FRESH is still only suitable for early adopters. OK, but that raises the question then of whether we should even offer it prominently on the download page, or as the first option. In your view, should we then offer the "branch formerly known as still" first? For the benefit of the downloader, yes, I would say it should be listed first. For the benefit of TDF and promotional hype and getting large numbers of people banging on the product to find bugs and crashes, I can see that it makes good sense to put the newest version as the first option. That is why it needs to be very clear that this is only for early adopters. Use the FRESH version if you want to help the community improve the product by testing and bug reporting. We already encourage (technically-minded) users to help test during the development cycle: alpha, beta, release candidates etc. So we have to be careful, not that we imply: Thanks for helping to test all during the development cycle and RCs! But even though we've released it, it's still not ready and needs more testing. Actually, that is exactly what we should be implying. While it is FRESH, it still is not really ready, and definitely needs more real-world testing. Justin -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice download page: updating the text
I completely disagree with your definition of "stable". Stable in this context means "it works just as good (or better) with my existing documents as the version of LO that I want to upgrade from". It means no regressions, no crashing, no surprises. It does not mean "no new development" since nothing on the download page has "new development" in it. This is important because EVERYTHING about the download page revolves around the issue of whether one version is "more stable" than the other version, and is the whole reason why people should chose between "the older" and "the newer" version. FRESH is still only suitable for early adopters. 24.2 will only be suitable for "everyone" when it reaches STILL status. (For me personally, I don't even consider STILL to be stable and won't deploy it until it has reach the last planned point release.) [I see that you have dropped the FRESH/STILL wording, but the underlying concept is still 100% valid.] By removing "early adopter", you actually confuse the issue, because now there really is no distinction between what FRESH and STILL mean. It shouldn't be that hard for people to choose. Use the STILL version if you just want to "do work". Use the FRESH version if you want to help the community improve the product by testing and bug reporting. It doesn't get much clearer than the current "If you're a technology enthusiast, early adopter or power user, this version is for you!". You can only be confused about that if you don't know what an enthusiast or an early adopter is. FRESH is for people who want to "Get Involved". STILL is for people who want to "take". If you change the wording now, you will just confuse the issue in a month, when 24.2.5 moves into STILL status, and 24.8 becomes the FRESH version. Are you going to imply that 24.8.0 will be "ideal for everyone and not just early adopters"? I certainly hope not. You need to get out of marketing mode. People are correct to believe that 24.2 is "not stable" yet. You shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge that. And until you acknowledge that, you will continue to make it difficult for people to "decide" which of the two options to chose from. Justin On 6/12/24 8:51 AM, Mike Saunders wrote: Hi everyone, Check out the two boxes on the download page, for (currently) the LibreOffice 24.2 and 7.6 branches: https://www.libreoffice.org/download/download-libreoffice/ We've heard from users on social media and at our info@ and download@ addresses that they're confused which version to choose, or believe the 24.2 branch isn't stable etc. Obviously both branches are stable (in the sense that they don't change radically, and only receive bug and security fixes -- no new features in the middle of the branch). So let's look at updating the text for clarity! My initial suggestion: Newer branch (currently 24.2): The very latest version, with lots of new features and improvements. Older branch (currently 7.6): Our previous release, which we are still supporting. For business deployments, we strongly recommend getting long-term supported versions from our ecosystem. What do you think? Bear in mind that we want to keep the text short and snappy here! -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-marketing] The version after 7.6 will be 24.2.0 - 24.2.7 (was: Please communicate the next version number)
The ESC agreed that the version after 7.6.x will be 24.2.0 - 24.2.7. On 5/30/23 7:57 AM, Justin Luth wrote: On 5/30/23 5:28 AM, Italo Vignoli wrote: We will announce the change explaining in detail what will happen in the interim period (i.e. when we will have the 2024.2 and the 7.6 releases). Italo, you have now communicated two different names for the "new" process. Originally you said it was "24.2", but here you have noted it as 2024.2. Please clarify. Since marketing indicated that "The one that fits best development: 24.2 or 2024.2 are the same for marketing", the ESC today agreed to specifically go with 24.2 for the new numbering scheme. ESC minutes recapped here: + marketing clarified that the next version number is 24.2 (or 2024.2) (Justin) + "The one that fits best development: 24.2 or 2024.2 are the same for marketing" -suggest NOT 2024.2 (either 2024.02 or 24.(0)2 (date-hints are always 2 digit) -suggest 24.2.0 - 24.2.7 as first stated/hinted at by marketing (Justin) -safe: no need to require LO or external scripts to handle zero-padded versions. - concerned about dropping "20" from the "2024" (Stephan) - jumping from 99 to 2100 would be a possibility - 2024.2 is easier to recognize (Heiko) - 24 internally, 2024 externally? (Hossein) - important point: date-based (Cloph) - wonder if it'll be always releasing in February / August (Xisco) - don't think it'll be that confusing (Cloph) - the version label will reflect the change, if needed - main reason is to avoid finding arguments for version bump, made up, after the fact - was it considered to just always increment the major version like Firefox / Chrome does it? (Khaled) - would avoid completely switching - was considered, but rejected: would not provide any benefit compared to randomly bumping the major version (Cloph) - just increasing major version would also follow some projects (Michael S) - difference vs Firefox / Chrome (Thorsten) - nobody cares about the version anymore, due to auto-update - technically, 2024.2 is possible? (Hossein) - 2024.1, 2024.a or .b? - 2024 would be possible, but would prefer 24 (Cloph) - letters are harder (think of app stores) - not great to use different internal / external versions - x.y as major had the opportunity to make big noise about a release (Olivier) => go with 24.2 / 24.8 (all) AI: get back to Italo with this (Justin) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Development will branch off of 7.6 on Jun 5. Please communicate the next version number
On 5/30/23 5:28 AM, Italo Vignoli wrote: On 30/05/23 10:19, Stephan Bergmann wrote: * How does the new versioning scheme fit with the current setup of having two parallel streams of "fresh" (currently LO 7.5.3) and "still" (currently LO 7.4.7) versions? We will announce the change explaining in detail what will happen in the interim period (i.e. when we will have the 2024.2 and the 7.6 releases). Italo, you have now communicated two different names for the "new" process. Originally you said it was "24.2", but here you have noted it as 2024.2. Please clarify. I don't see any problem whatsoever with the shorter 24.2. I'm quite sure the project will be able to transition to the latest versioning fad before 2099. By the way, I think that the distinction between "fresh" and "still" is now obsolete and can be deprecated. Unfortunately, that is wishful marketing speak. Regressions are still a huge concern. The distinction is absolutely relevant, and always will be. But in regards to Stephan's still/fresh question, I wouldn't expect any change here. When 24.2.0 - 24.2.4 are released, they should be "fresh/beta+/enthusiast/bleeding edge" and when 24.2.5 - 24.2.7 are released they are "still/stable/safe(r)". That third-digit aspect is no longer a marketing concern but a technical consideration. If there are intentions to overturn the release plan for 24.2, that needs to be communicated/debated soon. I was expecting to see the release plan updated next week... So I hope that Italo meant to communicate "when we have started 24.2 development and released 7.6.0" - meaning August 2023 at the very latest. Justin -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-marketing] Development will branch off of 7.6 on Jun 5. Please communicate the next version number
Dear Marketing, In a few weeks, the next version of LibreOffice will branch off of 7.6, and gain its new name. Additionally, a release plan needs to be published imminently. Now is an ideal time for deciding and communicating what the next version number will be. This also impacts things like bibisect repositories, patch notifications in bugzilla etc. Thanks for helping to make a smooth transition, Justin (as directed by ESC) CC: LibreOffice Development mailing list Italo Vignoli on Apr 11 13:30:27 UTC 2023 in “Next LibreOffice version will be 7.6” wrote: “At the same time, announce that this will be the last version following the "old" numbering scheme, without providing clues for the following numbering scheme (which will be based on the year.month paradigm).” ESC minutes from May 25 It would be nice to have the proper next version number (after 7.6) ready when master branches in a few weeks, and for the new release plan. Has that been finalized yet? If not, can we get the decision made before 7.6 branches off? NOW is the appropriate time for deciding if we go to 7.7, or 8.0 or 24.02. (Justin) + my option (Justin): 24.02 is fine - good fit for regular, timed releases. + 7.7 is better. Nothing has "changed", so why make any change? + good time to change would be after 7.9, since 7.10 looks like 7.1.0. + TDF has donation money for development - so TDF/marketing has the means to control when an 8.0 is appropriate. + for example, although I personally hate the notebookbar, there is high user demand for it. Something like defaulting to the notebookbar would be a worthy 8.0 designation - since it is a highly user visible, significant change. + notebookbar wouldn't/couldn't be ready as default in 7.7 timeframe. + remember it was a marketing topic / issue (Olivier) + prefer to leave it that way (Thorsten) + like the idea (Miklos) + two versions: still vs fresh (Heiko) + current schema (7.4 vs. 7.5) is easy to recognize in contrast to 24.2 vs... 22.x? + if we change, it should be coupled with rolling releases + plan to write to the marketing mailing list, explaining it's a good idea to make that decision now (Justin) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?
You are already getting my code contributions completely free, so IMHO you should be satisfied with people making general donations to TDF instead of ever nagging them via infobars. So I still think this is a bad idea. Justin On 4/27/21 5:28 PM, Mike Saunders wrote: Hello everyone, In recent versions of LibreOffice, we have an infobar that's periodically displayed at the top of the screen, including some text and a link. Currently the configuration is: * 90 days after installation: show a "Get involved" button * 180 days after installation: show a "Donate to support our community" button We know that the donate infobar results in a lot of donations; people using LibreOffice for six months are (hopefully!) still satisfied. So the question is: should we change how often these are shown? We don't want to "nag" anybody, but at the same time, one bar every three months isn't much, I think, given that users get a completely free office suite. IMO we could show the "get involved" bar after two months, and the "donate" after four -- but what do others think? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
I think that the prominent box at the top linking to reasons why businesses should find a supported release to be desirable is a good improvement. However, for the remainder of the page the existing content was much better, and much more accurate. "LibreOffice 7.0.x: If you're a technology enthusiast, early adopter or power user, this version is for you!" (Well, I disagree with power user, I would say "software tester"), but be that as it may.) "LibreOffice 6.4.x ..." The existing information on this is fine I would say. The point is that this would be the one for people who don't consider themselves to fit in the first two categories. Your suggested description is full of licensing implications, which is not helpful (as others are already stating). Justin On 11/11/20 5:30 PM, Mike Saunders wrote: Hi Cor, everyone, On 11/11/2020 14:19, Cor Nouws wrote:I made this mock-up for a download page update (of course, the "Edition"tagline is still open for discussion):https://blog.documentfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/download_page_concept.pngBut I think something like that would be good: segment users early on, pushing businesses towards the ecosystem offerings, while making it clear that the TDF version only has community support. But still giving everyone the freedom to do what they choose. What do you think? Mike -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
When it comes time to vote, please make sure there is some kind of "none of the above" option on the ballot. Otherwise some people will not be able to vote, and then there will be complaints that the percentage of members voting is too low. In fact, I would add both a "none of the above", and a "no label at all (even though this will not be an acceptable option)" choices to the ballot, just so that all members at least have a chance to participate in the vote. Thanks, Justin On 11/10/20 11:59 AM, Michael Weghorn wrote: after thinking about the whole topic once again, I have to say that I wouldn't personally consider the approach to "exert some moral suasion" by putting a label that is more or less supposed to say "Either buy a LibreOffice Enterprise edition from an ecosystem company or don't use LibreOffice at all in your organization" an approach that I'd be happy with. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] The Edition Matter
+1 to what Uwe and Michael and Telesto have been saying. Personal / Community are not accurate labels because they imply missing features. LibreOffice as we currently know it is full featured. By introducing these labels, you are signaling an intent to "dumb down" LibreOffice. The current real distinction is around support. So, using Linux terminology, a more accurate label would be LibreOffice Rolling verses LibreOffice LTS. But that is geeky terminology, so for that reason it probably isn't appropriate. Therefore since none of the suggested labels properly convey meaning, I too prefer the supposedly unavailable "no label" solution for TDF builds. Justin On 10/21/20 11:52 AM, Uwe Altmann wrote: Hi Am 20.10.20 um 10:50 schrieb Michael Weghorn: If "no label is not an option" (as stated by Italo), I'd currently prefer something like "TDF Edition" over "Personal Edition" or "Community Edition" as well, given the negative/misleading connotations the latter may result in. "no label is not an option" is Italos and some others - professional as I have to admit - option. But "no label" also still is an option - no decision made yet. And imho no label is the preferred option (as stated in past). Uwe Altmann -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Since in two weeks no one has objected to using Tip of the Day (and in fact, I see that both GetInvolved and Donate have already been included as Tips of the Day...) I will go ahead and remove the now redundant infobar code. I will ask Heiko to review it. Thanks, Justin On 4/13/19 10:22 PM, Justin Luth wrote: On 1/30/19 7:26 PM, Italo Vignoli (and Sophi and Mike) wrote: Of course, this does not mean that the current solution is the best one and therefore there is space for improvement (which is not getting rid of the request, as that would not be an improvement at all). The recent LO 6.3 addition of "Tip of the Day" might be the solution that we are all looking for. It has these benefits: 1.) A built-in, discoverable method of disabling the pop-up for those who don't want to see the message again. 2.) It cleanly fits the purpose of a "tip" - to point the user to a function of the program (help-get involved, help-donate) that they might want to learn about and explore 3.) It remove duplication of effort in the codebase. Moving GetInvolved and Donate notifications into TipOfTheDay would return the infobar's status to "you must act on this in order for your document to function properly" (like read-only warning, or macro disabled warning). It seems like a much more natural fit as "informational tips". Therefore I suggest converting these two infobar messages into Tips. Thanks, Justin -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
On 1/30/19 7:26 PM, Italo Vignoli (and Sophi and Mike) wrote: Of course, this does not mean that the current solution is the best one and therefore there is space for improvement (which is not getting rid of the request, as that would not be an improvement at all). The recent LO 6.3 addition of "Tip of the Day" might be the solution that we are all looking for. It has these benefits: 1.) A built-in, discoverable method of disabling the pop-up for those who don't want to see the message again. 2.) It cleanly fits the purpose of a "tip" - to points the user to a function of the program (help-get involved, help-donate) that they might want to learn about and explore 3.) It remove duplication of effort in the codebase. Moving GetInvolved and Donate notifications into TipOfTheDay would return the infobar's status to "you must act on this in order for your document to function properly" (like read-only warning, or macro disabled warning). It seems like a much more natural fit as "informational tips". Therefore I suggest converting these two infobar messages into Tips. Thanks, Justin -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
On 1/30/19 7:26 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote: The fact that you do not see the request for donations from Thunderbird confirms what I have written in my previous message: Your screen does not reflect in any way what actually happens on any of my machines. And I am quite sure that I have never done anything to avoid seeing it. That's my whole point. If that screen was visible to me or my users, I would have scripted into my setup workflow some way to avoid that. But I don't have any scripts for Thunderbird except for backup and restore. I never needed to search the internet asking how to hide/disable it and encounter only evasion. I didn't have to read through any source code in order to find answers. Despite the fact that Thunderbird has publicly proclaimed that they are basically a dead, homeless project, they have managed to not once force their donation pixels onto any part of my screen. When open-source projects turn to intrusive begging, the marketing message that I hear is that the project is dying. I start looking for viable alternatives at that point. Hopefully I am once again only one in a million who picks up on that marketing message. Justin -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions. First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an untargeted and intrusive irritant. Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place. And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an improvement. Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up! That will feel extremely offensive! Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let us remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage. Thanks, Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support (who is damaged in each of these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user advocate. [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved” pop-up, Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team) providing an actually supported version would show this to their users”. P.S. Sorry for not realizing that the ESC decision to remove GetInvolved from 6.1.5 Stable should have been confirmed by other bodies before being acted on. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
