Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Ian Lynch]

 (but this is a long story based on Sun's global lack of marketing skills).

Yes I had a few meetings with them in the UK in relation to the UK schools
market. Their complete ignorance of the specialist nature of the market and
not even recognising the fact was a good part of the reason I set up on my
own. Difficult starting from scratch as an individual but I suppose one
metric is that I'm still in business and growing and Sun is no more.

-- 
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Headline points in the 2014 and 2015 school league tables

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Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Italo Vignoli]

On 4/29/13 5:21 AM, Marc Paré wrote:

> I am not disputing the fact that it is political etc. Just pointing out
> that in the past, OpenOffice's slow/non-adoption into larger
> organizations was perhaps due to a flaw in our marketing angle and that
> perhaps a different approach may give us a better result. If it did not
> work before, well, it still won't work now. There is something in our
> approach that needs to be addressed and changed.

Hi Marc, we have completely changed the marketing approach in comparison
to OOo, because we were already disputing Sun's strategy since 2005. The
problem is that our approach, based on the development of an independent
ecosystem capable of generating business on top of LibreOffice needs
time and education (and the presence of a competitive project, which is
perpetuating Sun's strategy based on scarcity, does not help at all).

Unfortunately, Sun's strategy turned into a disaster in the Americas,
because in addition to completely missing the business opportunity did
also prevent the development of a local community.

At the end, in Europe most (all) OOo and LibreOffice deployments have
been based on the local community, and this is the reason why we did
chose a different approach (because it worked at least in Europe).

This is the reason why we can tell that decisions are 99% political, and
a LTS version (actually, the slow release cycle of OOo was almost a LTS
version) would not change the situation. It might, though, in the
Americas, because OOo never worked there (but this is a long story,
based on Sun's global lack of marketing skills).

Of course, there might be other valuable marketing strategies, which we
might evaluate. But we are definitely on a completely different path in
comparison with OOo (and although we have a major branding issue, we are
doing rather well).

Best, Italo

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Ian Lynch]

On 29 April 2013 13:53, Marc Paré  wrote:

> Le 29/04/13 04:46 AM, Ian Lynch a écrit :
>
>> On 29 April 2013 04:34, Marc Paré  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ian,
>>>
>>> I am not sure I agree; if this were the case, they would have moved to
>>> OpenOffice already.
>>>
>>
>> Why? No-one with any expertise in their industry has spoken to the
>> right people. Don't under-estimate the time and effort involved.
>>
>
> If there have not been the right people for OpenOffice after having
> presence for 10 years on the scene, then, we need to rethink our marketing
> models.


Have to re-think strategies rather than models.

 I am more of the opinion that we should go to the harder
>>> targets as they have a reason why they will not adopt.
>>>
>>
>> That is the opposite of what all the research on mass marketing tells
>> us. My comments are based on thorough research and visiting probably >
>> 15 countries over the last 7 years coupled with about 35 years working
>> in the education industry, most of it with senior people at a national
>> level.
>>
>
> Mine is based on close to the same amount of experience, but of in-class
> and on committee software evaluation/purchasing as well as being
> math/science/tech consultant. I was, up until my recent surgeries, on the
> committee advising purchasing, and yes, OpenOffice was discussed, but,
> there was no LTS version.


All depends on which country you are in.

 We need to take a
>>> close look at the conditions that make them unable to adopt and see if
>>> there
>>> is a way for us to accommodate these hurdles.
>>>
>>
>> If one of those conditions is not rational and that is very likely,
>> the first thing they will ask is who else has done it? People
>> generally don't like change. They will look for reasons not to have to
>> change so brute common sense rarely works. You need to find people who
>> are ready so you are pushing at an open door with at least one local
>> champion who has enough influence to help you.
>>
>
> Economic conditions have changed, this is our best driving argument for
> change in our category. We market the fact that we have zero cost for
> licensing and of great file compatibility. If some of our lager target
> markets are not considering our product then we need to take a closer look
> at LibreOffice and identify the problem. One of the obvious lack of options
> is a version that is supported by a longer term, along with accredited dev
> support.


Possibly it is a factor in some countries. Not a factor at all in the ones
in Europe that I have been to, definitely not here in the UK.

 Also, most of the places that are having a problem moving on to our
>>> LibreOffice are doing this for specific reasons, which they have found
>>> that
>>> over their years of experience, despite the savings on licensing fees,
>>> make
>>> it too difficult/inconvenient for the change -- don't forget, they are
>>> not
>>> spending their own personal cash, but the cash that was allotted by their
>>> funders/governments.
>>>
>>
>> I'm well aware of that and that simply reinforces why it is difficult
>> to get change in the public sector. Not impossible but very difficult.
>> It's largely not about rationality, it is a management of change issue
>> and if there is no-one with professional training and experience in
>> change management its like trying to code LO with people who don't
>> have in-depth knowledge of C++. If targeting education change you also
>> need expertise in that sector. Try Michael Fullan's books on education
>> change to get an insight into the difficulties in getting meaningful
>> change.
>>
>
> I am not sure how this would help when I speak to our group and passing on
> the information that in my experience an LTS version is what was lacking to
> even be considered a contender in the office suite adoption. Fullan may
> have it right but we may have it wrong.


The better you understand management of change the more likely you will
know if this is just another reason not to change - fix that and they'll
find something else. The real need is to find someone who is internal and a
champion, hopefully with some decision making power.

 Of these, I am suggesting that one of the major hurdles
>>> is not having an LTS version. Something that, IMO, if we really want to
>>> gain
>>> a foothold in larger markets, we need to consider.
>>>
>>
>> I doubt that has any significant influence on the decisions here in
>> the UK. Most would be more familiar with LTS as Linux Terminal Server
>> that Long Term Support.
>>
>
> We are not debating the term LTS. This not an issue. LTS, ESR, ...
> whatever term describes it -- I'm not worried about the term for this
> discussion.


If you are going to market something the market has to understand your
point. If they hadn't even thought about it why would it be a barrier to
them?

It might be an issue in those jurisdictions
>
>> that prescribe the technology to be used centrally and pay for it
>> nationally. If you identify such a j

[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Marc Paré]

Le 29/04/13 02:40 AM, Cor Nouws a écrit :

Marc Paré wrote (29-04-13 05:21)


Where I believe the whole project is disjointed is that without an LTS,
the TDF/LibreOffice project cuts itself out of the large
institutional/organizational market. I doubt very much that a large
institution wishing to save money on licensing fees would be very
willing to spend the savings on devs trying to keep a version of
LibreOffice up and working from one budget period to the next reasonable
budget term.


If you see it like that, I agree. But if a larger organisation deploys
e.g. a 3.6.6, then looks at the 4.0.4/5/6, or skip that and start again
looking at 4.1.4, there is a quite large time frame, which gives the
situation a bit more nuances.
I bet it's not uncommon that organisations stick with versions for
years, because they want to avoid the burden of updating. Which is
something they learned trough time.
(A burden that IMHO is pretty low considered that you understand the
process and spent time at the right moments.)

Regards,
Cor




This is true, but, my concern is that LibreOffice needs to get on the 
list to be considered as an option. Your statement would be true if 
LibreOffice were adopted as the main office suite, however, we have very 
little hope of even getting to your statement of fact due to our lack of 
offering a longer termed supported version.


Cheers,

Marc

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parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
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[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Marc Paré]

Le 29/04/13 04:46 AM, Ian Lynch a écrit :

On 29 April 2013 04:34, Marc Paré  wrote:

Hi Ian,
I am not sure I agree; if this were the case, they would have moved to
OpenOffice already.


Why? No-one with any expertise in their industry has spoken to the
right people. Don't under-estimate the time and effort involved.


If there have not been the right people for OpenOffice after having 
presence for 10 years on the scene, then, we need to rethink our 
marketing models.





I am more of the opinion that we should go to the harder
targets as they have a reason why they will not adopt.


That is the opposite of what all the research on mass marketing tells
us. My comments are based on thorough research and visiting probably >
15 countries over the last 7 years coupled with about 35 years working
in the education industry, most of it with senior people at a national
level.


Mine is based on close to the same amount of experience, but of in-class 
and on committee software evaluation/purchasing as well as being 
math/science/tech consultant. I was, up until my recent surgeries, on 
the committee advising purchasing, and yes, OpenOffice was discussed, 
but, there was no LTS version.





We need to take a
close look at the conditions that make them unable to adopt and see if there
is a way for us to accommodate these hurdles.


If one of those conditions is not rational and that is very likely,
the first thing they will ask is who else has done it? People
generally don't like change. They will look for reasons not to have to
change so brute common sense rarely works. You need to find people who
are ready so you are pushing at an open door with at least one local
champion who has enough influence to help you.


Economic conditions have changed, this is our best driving argument for 
change in our category. We market the fact that we have zero cost for 
licensing and of great file compatibility. If some of our lager target 
markets are not considering our product then we need to take a closer 
look at LibreOffice and identify the problem. One of the obvious lack of 
options is a version that is supported by a longer term, along with 
accredited dev support.





Also, most of the places that are having a problem moving on to our
LibreOffice are doing this for specific reasons, which they have found that
over their years of experience, despite the savings on licensing fees, make
it too difficult/inconvenient for the change -- don't forget, they are not
spending their own personal cash, but the cash that was allotted by their
funders/governments.


I'm well aware of that and that simply reinforces why it is difficult
to get change in the public sector. Not impossible but very difficult.
It's largely not about rationality, it is a management of change issue
and if there is no-one with professional training and experience in
change management its like trying to code LO with people who don't
have in-depth knowledge of C++. If targeting education change you also
need expertise in that sector. Try Michael Fullan's books on education
change to get an insight into the difficulties in getting meaningful
change.


I am not sure how this would help when I speak to our group and passing 
on the information that in my experience an LTS version is what was 
lacking to even be considered a contender in the office suite adoption. 
Fullan may have it right but we may have it wrong.





Of these, I am suggesting that one of the major hurdles
is not having an LTS version. Something that, IMO, if we really want to gain
a foothold in larger markets, we need to consider.


I doubt that has any significant influence on the decisions here in
the UK. Most would be more familiar with LTS as Linux Terminal Server
that Long Term Support.


We are not debating the term LTS. This not an issue. LTS, ESR, ... 
whatever term describes it -- I'm not worried about the term for this 
discussion.


It might be an issue in those jurisdictions

that prescribe the technology to be used centrally and pay for it
nationally. If you identify such a jurisdiction as ready in other
respects it would be worth considering LTS but it really needs the
market research done rather than just guessing.


I am speaking from a N.American perspective where our educational plan 
are made on a wider political scale (provincial) and not locally.





Rather than picking the easiest targets, we should be looking at the tougher
targets, which more than likely are the ones with the deeper pockets in the
educational field, and by finding a way to accommodate them, we will more
than likely gain the easier targets along way.


Those with deep pockets are unlikely to go through the hassle of
change when they can afford to just carry on as they are.


Not in my experience. Those with deeper pockets now need to account for 
the money spent and they must also account for the reasons a more costly 
item is adopted.


In our case (LibreOffice), we do not appear on any acquisition li

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Cor Nouws]

Tom Davies wrote (29-04-13 13:34)


How long does it take an institution to evaluate a peice of software
before they seriously consider installing it?


One day, two houres and 15 minutes.


--
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 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - www.librelex.org


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Ian Lynch]

On 29 April 2013 04:34, Marc Paré  wrote:
> Hi Ian,
>
> Le 28/04/13 06:20 AM, Ian Lynch a écrit :
>
>> It's more complex. It is different in different European countries.
>> Some have more central political control than others. eg in Germany
>> education is by the sixteen Länder in England individual schools have
>> local management. The details are even different in Scotland and
>> Wales. This is why it would make sense to find the country/region most
>> open to LO take up in its schools and put the effort into one place
>> and show how it works. Then show how it can be replicated and the
>> unique selling points (USPs). Target the easiest first, don't waste
>> time and effort on ones that are going to be nearly impossible. The
>> early adopters will make it easier for those to come on board later.
>> Once you identify the easiest target put all effort into a strategy
>> that will make it a "no brainer" for them to adopt. If you can do that
>> you have a chance.
>
>
> I am not sure I agree; if this were the case, they would have moved to
> OpenOffice already.

Why? No-one with any expertise in their industry has spoken to the
right people. Don't under-estimate the time and effort involved.

> I am more of the opinion that we should go to the harder
> targets as they have a reason why they will not adopt.

That is the opposite of what all the research on mass marketing tells
us. My comments are based on thorough research and visiting probably >
15 countries over the last 7 years coupled with about 35 years working
in the education industry, most of it with senior people at a national
level.

> We need to take a
> close look at the conditions that make them unable to adopt and see if there
> is a way for us to accommodate these hurdles.

If one of those conditions is not rational and that is very likely,
the first thing they will ask is who else has done it? People
generally don't like change. They will look for reasons not to have to
change so brute common sense rarely works. You need to find people who
are ready so you are pushing at an open door with at least one local
champion who has enough influence to help you.

> Also, most of the places that are having a problem moving on to our
> LibreOffice are doing this for specific reasons, which they have found that
> over their years of experience, despite the savings on licensing fees, make
> it too difficult/inconvenient for the change -- don't forget, they are not
> spending their own personal cash, but the cash that was allotted by their
> funders/governments.

I'm well aware of that and that simply reinforces why it is difficult
to get change in the public sector. Not impossible but very difficult.
It's largely not about rationality, it is a management of change issue
and if there is no-one with professional training and experience in
change management its like trying to code LO with people who don't
have in-depth knowledge of C++. If targeting education change you also
need expertise in that sector. Try Michael Fullan's books on education
change to get an insight into the difficulties in getting meaningful
change.

> Of these, I am suggesting that one of the major hurdles
> is not having an LTS version. Something that, IMO, if we really want to gain
> a foothold in larger markets, we need to consider.

I doubt that has any significant influence on the decisions here in
the UK. Most would be more familiar with LTS as Linux Terminal Server
that Long Term Support. It might be an issue in those jurisdictions
that prescribe the technology to be used centrally and pay for it
nationally. If you identify such a jurisdiction as ready in other
respects it would be worth considering LTS but it really needs the
market research done rather than just guessing.

> Rather than picking the easiest targets, we should be looking at the tougher
> targets, which more than likely are the ones with the deeper pockets in the
> educational field, and by finding a way to accommodate them, we will more
> than likely gain the easier targets along way.

Those with deep pockets are unlikely to go through the hassle of
change when they can afford to just carry on as they are.

> There is nothing more convincing that to see larger organizations move to a
> new distro for the smaller ones to follow. The reverse is seldom true.

The principles of disruptive innovation research from Harvard Business
School show the exact opposite is true. Community projects usually
bring new people into a market by making the product good enough for
their needs at a price they can afford. eg Wikipedia. They then get
better moving up the market displacing competition that can not
reposition without destroying their own cash cows. A reason MS has
taken so long to get 365 out to compete with Google. It could destroy
revenue from MS Office. Have they left it too late? Time will tell.

-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications

Headline points in the 2014 and 2015 school league tables

www.theINGOTs.org +

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Cor Nouws]

Marc Paré wrote (29-04-13 05:21)


Where I believe the whole project is disjointed is that without an LTS,
the TDF/LibreOffice project cuts itself out of the large
institutional/organizational market. I doubt very much that a large
institution wishing to save money on licensing fees would be very
willing to spend the savings on devs trying to keep a version of
LibreOffice up and working from one budget period to the next reasonable
budget term.


If you see it like that, I agree. But if a larger organisation deploys 
e.g. a 3.6.6, then looks at the 4.0.4/5/6, or skip that and start again 
looking at 4.1.4, there is a quite large time frame, which gives the 
situation a bit more nuances.
I bet it's not uncommon that organisations stick with versions for 
years, because they want to avoid the burden of updating. Which is 
something they learned trough time.
(A burden that IMHO is pretty low considered that you understand the 
process and spent time at the right moments.)


Regards,
Cor


--
 - Cor
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - www.librelex.org


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[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Marc Paré]

Hi Ian,

Le 28/04/13 06:20 AM, Ian Lynch a écrit :

It's more complex. It is different in different European countries.
Some have more central political control than others. eg in Germany
education is by the sixteen Länder in England individual schools have
local management. The details are even different in Scotland and
Wales. This is why it would make sense to find the country/region most
open to LO take up in its schools and put the effort into one place
and show how it works. Then show how it can be replicated and the
unique selling points (USPs). Target the easiest first, don't waste
time and effort on ones that are going to be nearly impossible. The
early adopters will make it easier for those to come on board later.
Once you identify the easiest target put all effort into a strategy
that will make it a "no brainer" for them to adopt. If you can do that
you have a chance.


I am not sure I agree; if this were the case, they would have moved to 
OpenOffice already. I am more of the opinion that we should go to the 
harder targets as they have a reason why they will not adopt. We need to 
take a close look at the conditions that make them unable to adopt and 
see if there is a way for us to accommodate these hurdles.


Also, most of the places that are having a problem moving on to our 
LibreOffice are doing this for specific reasons, which they have found 
that over their years of experience, despite the savings on licensing 
fees, make it too difficult/inconvenient for the change -- don't forget, 
they are not spending their own personal cash, but the cash that was 
allotted by their funders/governments. Of these, I am suggesting that 
one of the major hurdles is not having an LTS version. Something that, 
IMO, if we really want to gain a foothold in larger markets, we need to 
consider.


Rather than picking the easiest targets, we should be looking at the 
tougher targets, which more than likely are the ones with the deeper 
pockets in the educational field, and by finding a way to accommodate 
them, we will more than likely gain the easier targets along way.


There is nothing more convincing that to see larger organizations move 
to a new distro for the smaller ones to follow. The reverse is seldom true.


Cheers,

Marc



--
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m...@marcpare.com
http://www.parEntreprise.com
parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org


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[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Marc Paré]

Le 27/04/13 07:24 PM, Italo Vignoli a écrit :

On 04/25/2013 10:15 PM, Marc Paré wrote:


If we are to expound the values of LibreOffice in the educational sphere
we need to list those values that really count. We already know of the
obvious ones of file compatibility etc., but we need to work on the
assets that really count to educational organizations.


Hi Marc, it looks like the situation is different, at least by
continent. In Europe, the decision is 99% political, and 1% based on
every other issue. This is true not only for the educational system but
also for governments, and this is the reason why proprietary software
vendors invest a huge amount of money on lobbying.

On the other hand, every point you mention would definitely increase the
competitive positioning of LibreOffice, so they are at least worth some
effort, with the exception of the LTS release issue, as our time based
release schedule has been - and continues to be - instrumental in
attracting new developers (which is one of the most important reasons of
our success so far).



It seems to me that there seems to be a flaw in the ideology behind the 
project. There seems to be a want by some devs to keep the project on a 
time release schedule, which by and large is great in attracting devs, 
but, also a group of devs who are hoping that the distro will translate 
into income from the accreditation programme.


Where I believe the whole project is disjointed is that without an LTS, 
the TDF/LibreOffice project cuts itself out of the large 
institutional/organizational market. I doubt very much that a large 
institution wishing to save money on licensing fees would be very 
willing to spend the savings on devs trying to keep a version of 
LibreOffice up and working from one budget period to the next reasonable 
budget term.


To me, it would make much more sense to create an LTS version with our 
group of devs working at keeping it as current and solid for the period 
of the LTS term and this would allow the possibility of acceptance of 
LibreOffice by more organizations, thereby gaining larger income 
possibilities for a larger base of our (soon-to-be) accredited devs.


Otherwise, we leave the door open to a larger institution who could 
accreditate its own devs and then fork its own version of LTS LibreOffice.


I am not disputing the fact that it is political etc. Just pointing out 
that in the past, OpenOffice's slow/non-adoption into larger 
organizations was perhaps due to a flaw in our marketing angle and that 
perhaps a different approach may give us a better result. If it did not 
work before, well, it still won't work now. There is something in our 
approach that needs to be addressed and changed.


Our present approach is well suited for LibreOffice adoption by the 
small office, home use where the need for an accredited dev is minimal 
if not zero. Larger organizations will just look at the fast-paced 
development, often-released versions which just seems to scream more 
money spent of development and keeping up to date of the software on 
their part if they were to adopt it.


Cheers,

Marc


--
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m...@marcpare.com
http://www.parEntreprise.com
parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Ian Lynch]

On 28 April 2013 00:24, Italo Vignoli  wrote:
>
> On 04/25/2013 10:15 PM, Marc Paré wrote:
>
> > If we are to expound the values of LibreOffice in the educational sphere
> > we need to list those values that really count. We already know of the
> > obvious ones of file compatibility etc., but we need to work on the
> > assets that really count to educational organizations.
>
> Hi Marc, it looks like the situation is different, at least by
> continent. In Europe, the decision is 99% political, and 1% based on
> every other issue.

It's more complex. It is different in different European countries.
Some have more central political control than others. eg in Germany
education is by the sixteen Länder in England individual schools have
local management. The details are even different in Scotland and
Wales. This is why it would make sense to find the country/region most
open to LO take up in its schools and put the effort into one place
and show how it works. Then show how it can be replicated and the
unique selling points (USPs). Target the easiest first, don't waste
time and effort on ones that are going to be nearly impossible. The
early adopters will make it easier for those to come on board later.
Once you identify the easiest target put all effort into a strategy
that will make it a "no brainer" for them to adopt. If you can do that
you have a chance.

> This is true not only for the educational system but
> also for governments, and this is the reason why proprietary software
> vendors invest a huge amount of money on lobbying.
>
> On the other hand, every point you mention would definitely increase the
> competitive positioning of LibreOffice, so they are at least worth some
> effort, with the exception of the LTS release issue, as our time based
> release schedule has been - and continues to be - instrumental in
> attracting new developers (which is one of the most important reasons of
> our success so far).
>
> --
> Italo Vignoli - italo.vign...@gmail.com
> mob +39.348.5653829 - VoIP 5316...@messagenet.it
> skype italovignoli - gtalk italo.vign...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Italo Vignoli]

On 04/25/2013 10:15 PM, Marc Paré wrote:

> If we are to expound the values of LibreOffice in the educational sphere
> we need to list those values that really count. We already know of the
> obvious ones of file compatibility etc., but we need to work on the
> assets that really count to educational organizations.

Hi Marc, it looks like the situation is different, at least by
continent. In Europe, the decision is 99% political, and 1% based on
every other issue. This is true not only for the educational system but
also for governments, and this is the reason why proprietary software
vendors invest a huge amount of money on lobbying.

On the other hand, every point you mention would definitely increase the
competitive positioning of LibreOffice, so they are at least worth some
effort, with the exception of the LTS release issue, as our time based
release schedule has been - and continues to be - instrumental in
attracting new developers (which is one of the most important reasons of
our success so far).

-- 
Italo Vignoli - italo.vign...@gmail.com
mob +39.348.5653829 - VoIP 5316...@messagenet.it
skype italovignoli - gtalk italo.vign...@gmail.com

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Ian Lynch]

On 27 April 2013 00:59, Marc Paré  wrote:

> Le 26/04/13 06:14 PM, Jean Weber a écrit :
>
>
>  I agree with Charles that it's mostly a political problem. I also agree
>> with Marc that education sector wants certain features or at least some
>> easy way to do certain things.
>>
>> One item that has been on my documentation wish list for years is a book
>> (or series of tutorials) aimed specifically and teachers and/or academics,
>> explaining how to do things they frequently want or need to do. Kind of a
>> cookbook approach: here's the task you want to accomplish, and here's how
>> to do it. These days I think video tutorials would be the way to go. Of
>> course, such a project needs a team of people to produce the material: a
>> team that includes people who know the audience and their requirements
>> well. At this time we don't have such a team, and I can't see us being able
>> to put together such a team. If we had some money to pay a few
>> professionals whom I know, to do at least some of the work, then it could
>> happen.
>>
>> Perhaps this is something I should develop into a costed proposal for
>> consideration in next year's budget.
>>
>> --Jean
>>
>>
> I don't necessarily see it as a political problem, but mostly a strategic
> problem on our part. Our first objective should be to get the suite on the
> list of contenders to the replacement of MSO. The list that I posted is not
> that difficult to accomplish for our group ... except for an LTS version
> which, for us, is a question of our group's ideology, and, for educational
> institutions, it is a question of money. Getting competent accredited help
> also fits in our largest failing.
>
> Look at the list once again and you will find that except for the LTS
> (event despite having very few accredited individuals) we would be well
> placed.there would not be too much work at getting LibreOffice fit for mass
> institutional consumption:
>
> * Getting a clipart solution ... I am already working on an extremely
> simple package version for schools and students. IT staff normally just
> dump the collection on their servers and let students look these up from
> MSO. We should package a large group of cliparts and have it ready for
> download with easy configuration routine to link it to the LibreOffice
> Gallery.
>
> *templates ... teachers would definitely participate in this for free ...
> they revel at working on such projects. We would only need to mentor groups
> and teach them templating techniques.
>
> * bibliographic tool Zotero ... means partnering up with the company or
> just going it alone with our own plugin and Zotero server solution. This is
> a must for academic users.
>
> * cloud solutions ... we were running a series of blogs where someone was
> showing solid possibilities, we just need to package and market the
> information the right way.
>
> We are really only 6 items short of being more of a credible contender and
> of those 4 are already achievable.
>
> As for video production, sure we now have the YouTube channel (Drew will
> be passing admin on to us soon), we already have Kannan's group that we may
> be able to use, and, teacher groups are also adept at working on some of
> these. We could run some regional teacher video summer projects or even
> apply for grants from different regional governmental agencies who would
> most likely participate.
>
>
> Institutions work at a glacial pace and change is extremely difficult.
> Strategic plans are drawn up in 3 or 5 year and sometime 10 year time
> frames. Yes, it is very politicized, but there are ways to cut through much
> of the politics to get LibreOffice moving, but, the fact remains, that,
> first of all, and, most of all, we need to serve up a LibreOffice version
> that simply has a longer shelf-life. MSO does this well and capitalizes on
> it, we need to re-think our strategy to make things work for these large
> environments.
>

Varies quite a lot between countries. Each has significant education
cultural differences. Teaching and curriculum materials are usually a big
help - Scheme of work, lesson plans, content for them. In the UK if it does
not fit into the performance measures system in terms of assessment it is
unlikely to get taken up quite apart from any of the MSO considerations
etc. Identifying a country/countries most likely to make take up easy is
essential given the limitation on resources. Success in the first  makes
the 2nd, 3rd etc much more likely.


-- 
> Marc Paré
> m...@marcpare.com
> http://www.parEntreprise.com
> parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
> parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org
>

-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications 

Headline points in the 2014 and 2015 school league tables

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.

-- 

[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Marc Paré]

Le 26/04/13 06:14 PM, Jean Weber a écrit :


I agree with Charles that it's mostly a political problem. I also agree with 
Marc that education sector wants certain features or at least some easy way to 
do certain things.

One item that has been on my documentation wish list for years is a book (or 
series of tutorials) aimed specifically and teachers and/or academics, 
explaining how to do things they frequently want or need to do. Kind of a 
cookbook approach: here's the task you want to accomplish, and here's how to do 
it. These days I think video tutorials would be the way to go. Of course, such 
a project needs a team of people to produce the material: a team that includes 
people who know the audience and their requirements well. At this time we don't 
have such a team, and I can't see us being able to put together such a team. If 
we had some money to pay a few professionals whom I know, to do at least some 
of the work, then it could happen.

Perhaps this is something I should develop into a costed proposal for 
consideration in next year's budget.

--Jean



I don't necessarily see it as a political problem, but mostly a 
strategic problem on our part. Our first objective should be to get the 
suite on the list of contenders to the replacement of MSO. The list that 
I posted is not that difficult to accomplish for our group ... except 
for an LTS version which, for us, is a question of our group's ideology, 
and, for educational institutions, it is a question of money. Getting 
competent accredited help also fits in our largest failing.


Look at the list once again and you will find that except for the LTS 
(event despite having very few accredited individuals) we would be well 
placed.there would not be too much work at getting LibreOffice fit for 
mass institutional consumption:


* Getting a clipart solution ... I am already working on an extremely 
simple package version for schools and students. IT staff normally just 
dump the collection on their servers and let students look these up from 
MSO. We should package a large group of cliparts and have it ready for 
download with easy configuration routine to link it to the LibreOffice 
Gallery.


*templates ... teachers would definitely participate in this for free 
... they revel at working on such projects. We would only need to mentor 
groups and teach them templating techniques.


* bibliographic tool Zotero ... means partnering up with the company or 
just going it alone with our own plugin and Zotero server solution. This 
is a must for academic users.


* cloud solutions ... we were running a series of blogs where someone 
was showing solid possibilities, we just need to package and market the 
information the right way.


We are really only 6 items short of being more of a credible contender 
and of those 4 are already achievable.


As for video production, sure we now have the YouTube channel (Drew will 
be passing admin on to us soon), we already have Kannan's group that we 
may be able to use, and, teacher groups are also adept at working on 
some of these. We could run some regional teacher video summer projects 
or even apply for grants from different regional governmental agencies 
who would most likely participate.



Institutions work at a glacial pace and change is extremely difficult. 
Strategic plans are drawn up in 3 or 5 year and sometime 10 year time 
frames. Yes, it is very politicized, but there are ways to cut through 
much of the politics to get LibreOffice moving, but, the fact remains, 
that, first of all, and, most of all, we need to serve up a LibreOffice 
version that simply has a longer shelf-life. MSO does this well and 
capitalizes on it, we need to re-think our strategy to make things work 
for these large environments.


Cheers,

Marc


--
Marc Paré
m...@marcpare.com
http://www.parEntreprise.com
parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Jean Weber]

On 26/04/2013, at 23:57, "Charles-H. Schulz" 
 wrote:

> Hello Marc,
> 
> 
> Le Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:15:07 -0400,
> Marc Paré  a écrit :
> 
>> HI Kannan and Charles,
>> 
>> If we are to expound the values of LibreOffice in the educational
>> sphere we need to list those values that really count. We already
>> know of the obvious ones of file compatibility etc., but we need to
>> work on the assets that really count to educational organizations.
>> Here is what I believe LibreOffice needs to offer to become a solid
>> contender in the "educational organization office suite arena".
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> What I believe would be on an educational IT list of "must-haves"
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> * LTS version (like it or not, an LTS version is most likely a 
>> show-stopper for most educational organizations here in N.America
>> (not sure how much in EU or Asian etc markets), this is just the
>> reality of the way the system works. Educational organizations work
>> on long range planning and they do not like software where there is
>> no long term support -- 2 yrs LTS is what I would consider the
>> shortest acceptable term, and, even then, there would most likely be
>> push back at such a short term, even making it 2.5yrs would be better
>> than only 2yr LTS. Regarding LTS versions and LibreOffice: we just
>> can't seem to acknowledge/admit to the need for an LTS version. We
>> seem to think that the system will bend to our will, but it does not
>> nor will it. Educational organizations work on fixed income delivered
>> through political policy, these policies come with fixed terms and
>> thus, budgets also then come with fixed terms of expenses. All IT is
>> then measured by predictable costs of expense and LTS versions offer
>> this -- that is to say, an LTS version represents to IT staff a
>> predictable expense cost over a certain term of months/yrs. If you
>> manage a small educational setup of 10,000 computers, then paying the
>> MSO tax for an LTS version is a lot less trouble than going with
>> another office suite that has no LTS and thus possible unpredictable
>> costs of maintenance and trouble-shooting. Even FF has recognized
>> this and has its own LTS version that is used by the edu. 
>> organizations.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Firefox#Extended_Support_Release])
>> 
>> * easily configurable to cloud solutions (we need to list the 
>> solutions). Educational organizations do not really care of MSO365 or
>> of the MS cloud. They would prefer to work things out on their
>> intranet. Different stack solutions are more interesting to them. I
>> would suggest we propose a working variety of stacks, with proof of
>> concept where educational organizations could see it at work, Some
>> organizations may in fact team up with LibreOffice to make this work.
>> 
>> * available and accredited support solutions for large enterprise 
>> installations (this is a must!!!) (if we are saving the organizations
>> a large chunk of their budget, it then makes sense that they will
>> have a bit of it to pay for IT support from TDF/LibreOffice
>> accredited sources, it is pretty certain that the educational IT
>> departments will use this money for technical help. All levels of
>> help will most likely be best to make available to the organizations.)
>> 
>> * available on many operating systems (we already have this)
>> 
>> * a robust help network from experienced users (we already have this)
>> 
>> * QA response (I don't really consider our QA worse than that of MS
>> and the team is working on quicker QA) (our dev response to QA
>> identified problems with the suite is quite rapid and IMO quicker
>> than MS)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Must haves for educational organization users
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> * large bank of clipart installable on their intranet (we could have 
>> this from the openclipart.org site. The organizations will want to
>> have the clipart reside on their system to optimize for speed. We
>> could create a bank of clipart or banks of different sizes for their
>> use or users' use -- downloadable from our extensions site)
>> 
>> * bank of templates (we don't have enough, we need to establish a
>> team of template creators whose primary objective is to create
>> templates, the planning pages may be found here 
>> [https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Ideas/Template_team]
>> 
>> * documentation that is easily obtainable and in large sets (we
>> already have a prolific docs team that keeps all module textbooks up
>> to date. Printed materials can be bought in small/large amounts from
>> Lulu.com
>> 
>> * a competent bibliographic tool. (by all accounts, the LibreOffice 
>> bibliographic tool is not useful enough for serious work. It has been 
>> suggested that it be scrapped and re-built. OR in the meantime, we
>> could partner up with Zotero and make sure the Zotero plugin has
>> oversight by our devs who would make sure t

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Marc,


Le Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:15:07 -0400,
Marc Paré  a écrit :

> HI Kannan and Charles,
> 
> If we are to expound the values of LibreOffice in the educational
> sphere we need to list those values that really count. We already
> know of the obvious ones of file compatibility etc., but we need to
> work on the assets that really count to educational organizations.
> Here is what I believe LibreOffice needs to offer to become a solid
> contender in the "educational organization office suite arena".
> 
> 
> 
> What I believe would be on an educational IT list of "must-haves"
> 
> 
> 
> * LTS version (like it or not, an LTS version is most likely a 
> show-stopper for most educational organizations here in N.America
> (not sure how much in EU or Asian etc markets), this is just the
> reality of the way the system works. Educational organizations work
> on long range planning and they do not like software where there is
> no long term support -- 2 yrs LTS is what I would consider the
> shortest acceptable term, and, even then, there would most likely be
> push back at such a short term, even making it 2.5yrs would be better
> than only 2yr LTS. Regarding LTS versions and LibreOffice: we just
> can't seem to acknowledge/admit to the need for an LTS version. We
> seem to think that the system will bend to our will, but it does not
> nor will it. Educational organizations work on fixed income delivered
> through political policy, these policies come with fixed terms and
> thus, budgets also then come with fixed terms of expenses. All IT is
> then measured by predictable costs of expense and LTS versions offer
> this -- that is to say, an LTS version represents to IT staff a
> predictable expense cost over a certain term of months/yrs. If you
> manage a small educational setup of 10,000 computers, then paying the
> MSO tax for an LTS version is a lot less trouble than going with
> another office suite that has no LTS and thus possible unpredictable
> costs of maintenance and trouble-shooting. Even FF has recognized
> this and has its own LTS version that is used by the edu. 
> organizations.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Firefox#Extended_Support_Release])
> 
> * easily configurable to cloud solutions (we need to list the 
> solutions). Educational organizations do not really care of MSO365 or
> of the MS cloud. They would prefer to work things out on their
> intranet. Different stack solutions are more interesting to them. I
> would suggest we propose a working variety of stacks, with proof of
> concept where educational organizations could see it at work, Some
> organizations may in fact team up with LibreOffice to make this work.
> 
> * available and accredited support solutions for large enterprise 
> installations (this is a must!!!) (if we are saving the organizations
> a large chunk of their budget, it then makes sense that they will
> have a bit of it to pay for IT support from TDF/LibreOffice
> accredited sources, it is pretty certain that the educational IT
> departments will use this money for technical help. All levels of
> help will most likely be best to make available to the organizations.)
> 
> * available on many operating systems (we already have this)
> 
> * a robust help network from experienced users (we already have this)
> 
> * QA response (I don't really consider our QA worse than that of MS
> and the team is working on quicker QA) (our dev response to QA
> identified problems with the suite is quite rapid and IMO quicker
> than MS)
> 
> 
> 
> Must haves for educational organization users
> 
> 
> 
> * large bank of clipart installable on their intranet (we could have 
> this from the openclipart.org site. The organizations will want to
> have the clipart reside on their system to optimize for speed. We
> could create a bank of clipart or banks of different sizes for their
> use or users' use -- downloadable from our extensions site)
> 
> * bank of templates (we don't have enough, we need to establish a
> team of template creators whose primary objective is to create
> templates, the planning pages may be found here 
> [https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Ideas/Template_team]
> 
> * documentation that is easily obtainable and in large sets (we
> already have a prolific docs team that keeps all module textbooks up
> to date. Printed materials can be bought in small/large amounts from
> Lulu.com
> 
> * a competent bibliographic tool. (by all accounts, the LibreOffice 
> bibliographic tool is not useful enough for serious work. It has been 
> suggested that it be scrapped and re-built. OR in the meantime, we
> could partner up with Zotero and make sure the Zotero plugin has
> oversight by our devs who would make sure the plugin work correctly
> OR alternatively, create our own Zotero plugin to LibreOffice. Either
> way, we would need to provide a competent bibliographic too

[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Marc Paré]

HI Kannan and Charles,

If we are to expound the values of LibreOffice in the educational sphere 
we need to list those values that really count. We already know of the 
obvious ones of file compatibility etc., but we need to work on the 
assets that really count to educational organizations. Here is what I 
believe LibreOffice needs to offer to become a solid contender in the 
"educational organization office suite arena".




What I believe would be on an educational IT list of "must-haves"



* LTS version (like it or not, an LTS version is most likely a 
show-stopper for most educational organizations here in N.America (not 
sure how much in EU or Asian etc markets), this is just the reality of 
the way the system works. Educational organizations work on long range 
planning and they do not like software where there is no long term 
support -- 2 yrs LTS is what I would consider the shortest acceptable 
term, and, even then, there would most likely be push back at such a 
short term, even making it 2.5yrs would be better than only 2yr LTS. 
Regarding LTS versions and LibreOffice: we just can't seem to 
acknowledge/admit to the need for an LTS version. We seem to think that 
the system will bend to our will, but it does not nor will it. 
Educational organizations work on fixed income delivered through 
political policy, these policies come with fixed terms and thus, budgets 
also then come with fixed terms of expenses. All IT is then measured by 
predictable costs of expense and LTS versions offer this -- that is to 
say, an LTS version represents to IT staff a predictable expense cost 
over a certain term of months/yrs. If you manage a small educational 
setup of 10,000 computers, then paying the MSO tax for an LTS version is 
a lot less trouble than going with another office suite that has no LTS 
and thus possible unpredictable costs of maintenance and 
trouble-shooting. Even FF has recognized this and has its own LTS 
version that is used by the edu. 
organizations.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Firefox#Extended_Support_Release])


* easily configurable to cloud solutions (we need to list the 
solutions). Educational organizations do not really care of MSO365 or of 
the MS cloud. They would prefer to work things out on their intranet. 
Different stack solutions are more interesting to them. I would suggest 
we propose a working variety of stacks, with proof of concept where 
educational organizations could see it at work, Some organizations may 
in fact team up with LibreOffice to make this work.


* available and accredited support solutions for large enterprise 
installations (this is a must!!!) (if we are saving the organizations a 
large chunk of their budget, it then makes sense that they will have a 
bit of it to pay for IT support from TDF/LibreOffice accredited sources, 
it is pretty certain that the educational IT departments will use this 
money for technical help. All levels of help will most likely be best to 
make available to the organizations.)


* available on many operating systems (we already have this)

* a robust help network from experienced users (we already have this)

* QA response (I don't really consider our QA worse than that of MS and 
the team is working on quicker QA) (our dev response to QA identified 
problems with the suite is quite rapid and IMO quicker than MS)




Must haves for educational organization users



* large bank of clipart installable on their intranet (we could have 
this from the openclipart.org site. The organizations will want to have 
the clipart reside on their system to optimize for speed. We could 
create a bank of clipart or banks of different sizes for their use or 
users' use -- downloadable from our extensions site)


* bank of templates (we don't have enough, we need to establish a team 
of template creators whose primary objective is to create templates, the 
planning pages may be found here 
[https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Ideas/Template_team]


* documentation that is easily obtainable and in large sets (we already 
have a prolific docs team that keeps all module textbooks up to date. 
Printed materials can be bought in small/large amounts from Lulu.com


* a competent bibliographic tool. (by all accounts, the LibreOffice 
bibliographic tool is not useful enough for serious work. It has been 
suggested that it be scrapped and re-built. OR in the meantime, we could 
partner up with Zotero and make sure the Zotero plugin has oversight by 
our devs who would make sure the plugin work correctly OR alternatively, 
create our own Zotero plugin to LibreOffice. Either way, we would need 
to provide a competent bibliographic tool for our educational org. users 
[you may find a discussion here: 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/LibreOffice_In_Academia]


This to me would go a long way in making LibreOffice a serio

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
They are kinda like a reverse Robin Hood.  Taking from the poor and giving to 
the rich.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  





>
> From: Charles-H. Schulz 
>To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:00
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced 
>to use MS Office
> 
>
>They do it in France as well and in many other countries. The cost is
>one argument, but then there can be other arguments on costs as well.
>This being said, there are plenty of policy arguments to counter that.
>
>best,
>Charles.
>
>Le mercredi 24 avril 2013 à 20:26 +0530, Kannan Moudgalya a écrit :
>> MS is giving this solution to India free of cost!
>> 
>> Kannan
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/04/13 7:35 PM, Marc Paré wrote:
>> > Le 24/04/13 08:34 AM, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>> >> Dear Kannan,
>> >>
>> >> I think your question is: do we have an online version of Libreoffice ?
>> >> Full answer, we will, there's a prototype anyone can run (instructions
>> >> on the wiki), we just need resources to make sure we have a fully
>> >> dedicated team to fully develop it.
>> >> This LibreOffice OnLine is not distinct from LibreOffice software itself
>> >> (you can configure it as a server platform) and anyone with a reasonably
>> >> sized server will be able to use it and have several users run it in
>> >> their browser.
>> >>
>> >> If your question is : do we have a whole FOSS desktop stack, we don't,
>> >> and we're not looking to have one. I agree with your latest comments
>> >> though, and I again invite interested people/teams who are in contact
>> >> with existing decision makers in ICT and education to ping me and we'll
>> >> open a private mailing list for advocacy/policy coordination.
>> >>
>> >> best,
>> >> Charles.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Taking as example, our school system in Canada.
>> >
>> > I have been a FOSS advocate for over a decade if not more and also sat 
>> > on a committee called ESC (Elementary Software Committee) with my 
>> > school board (for even longer) where we evaluated software destined to 
>> > elementary school use. Our ESC committee also worked cooperatively 
>> > with our IT staff making sure that any acquisitions did not take down 
>> > our servers nor compromised them. In short, our ESC in conjunction 
>> > with the IT staff were pretty well the deciding group for software 
>> > purchases and adoptions.
>> >
>> > At present, we do use some FOSS software but not LibreOffice. As we 
>> > are all aware, moving to LibreOffice in some geographical regions is 
>> > quite difficult due to the MSO penetration within these markets.
>> >
>> > From my point of view, the only way that we could budge the elephant, 
>> > would be to question the financial reasoning and logic behind using an 
>> > expensive suite which often will cost between $35-50/seat per module 
>> > (in Canada and most likely in the US). As most board of educations (in 
>> > Canada) are financially accountable to a publicly elected School BoD, 
>> > then our main option would be of demonstrating publicly the fact that, 
>> > feature for feature LibreOffice offers the same educational advantages 
>> > as MSO. If it were demonstrated publicly that LibreOffice at the 
>> > primary level offered the same identical benefits as MSO BUT without 
>> > its expensive cost, and, if we could demonstrate the LibreOffice suite 
>> > was easily integrated on their server stacks, then, public pressure 
>> > would mount with demands to the school boards of adopting the 
>> > LibreOffice suite as their main teaching tool at the primary level.
>> >
>> > If we were to mount a public ad campaign, in national, provincial and 
>> > community newspapers, for example, starting with the most populous 
>> > province in Canada, we could most likely start a wave of LibreOffice 
>> > adoption throughout that province. Once the wave starts in a populous 
>> > province, it then become difficult to stem this wave from propagating 
>> > to other provinces and of even crossing borders.
>> >
>> > The purpose of the ads would be to get people to discuss in public and 
>> > help mount popular opinion on the savings of millions of dollars from 
>> > unnecessary software.
>> >
>> > We should d

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Charles-H. Schulz]

They do it in France as well and in many other countries. The cost is
one argument, but then there can be other arguments on costs as well.
This being said, there are plenty of policy arguments to counter that.

best,
Charles.

Le mercredi 24 avril 2013 à 20:26 +0530, Kannan Moudgalya a écrit :
> MS is giving this solution to India free of cost!
> 
> Kannan
> 
> 
> On 24/04/13 7:35 PM, Marc Paré wrote:
> > Le 24/04/13 08:34 AM, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
> >> Dear Kannan,
> >>
> >> I think your question is: do we have an online version of Libreoffice ?
> >> Full answer, we will, there's a prototype anyone can run (instructions
> >> on the wiki), we just need resources to make sure we have a fully
> >> dedicated team to fully develop it.
> >> This LibreOffice OnLine is not distinct from LibreOffice software itself
> >> (you can configure it as a server platform) and anyone with a reasonably
> >> sized server will be able to use it and have several users run it in
> >> their browser.
> >>
> >> If your question is : do we have a whole FOSS desktop stack, we don't,
> >> and we're not looking to have one. I agree with your latest comments
> >> though, and I again invite interested people/teams who are in contact
> >> with existing decision makers in ICT and education to ping me and we'll
> >> open a private mailing list for advocacy/policy coordination.
> >>
> >> best,
> >> Charles.
> >>
> >
> > Taking as example, our school system in Canada.
> >
> > I have been a FOSS advocate for over a decade if not more and also sat 
> > on a committee called ESC (Elementary Software Committee) with my 
> > school board (for even longer) where we evaluated software destined to 
> > elementary school use. Our ESC committee also worked cooperatively 
> > with our IT staff making sure that any acquisitions did not take down 
> > our servers nor compromised them. In short, our ESC in conjunction 
> > with the IT staff were pretty well the deciding group for software 
> > purchases and adoptions.
> >
> > At present, we do use some FOSS software but not LibreOffice. As we 
> > are all aware, moving to LibreOffice in some geographical regions is 
> > quite difficult due to the MSO penetration within these markets.
> >
> > From my point of view, the only way that we could budge the elephant, 
> > would be to question the financial reasoning and logic behind using an 
> > expensive suite which often will cost between $35-50/seat per module 
> > (in Canada and most likely in the US). As most board of educations (in 
> > Canada) are financially accountable to a publicly elected School BoD, 
> > then our main option would be of demonstrating publicly the fact that, 
> > feature for feature LibreOffice offers the same educational advantages 
> > as MSO. If it were demonstrated publicly that LibreOffice at the 
> > primary level offered the same identical benefits as MSO BUT without 
> > its expensive cost, and, if we could demonstrate the LibreOffice suite 
> > was easily integrated on their server stacks, then, public pressure 
> > would mount with demands to the school boards of adopting the 
> > LibreOffice suite as their main teaching tool at the primary level.
> >
> > If we were to mount a public ad campaign, in national, provincial and 
> > community newspapers, for example, starting with the most populous 
> > province in Canada, we could most likely start a wave of LibreOffice 
> > adoption throughout that province. Once the wave starts in a populous 
> > province, it then become difficult to stem this wave from propagating 
> > to other provinces and of even crossing borders.
> >
> > The purpose of the ads would be to get people to discuss in public and 
> > help mount popular opinion on the savings of millions of dollars from 
> > unnecessary software.
> >
> > We should definitely be looking at simplifying our cloud version of 
> > LibreOffice so that educational institutions have this on their list 
> > of options. Most of these institutions have their own stacks up and 
> > working already and this is what MSO is hoping to lock them into.
> >
> > I don't believe that this strategy is anything new to MSO as they are 
> > most likely expecting it and hoping that we are languishing enough for 
> > them to lock their client base into their cloud services.
> >
> > And, yes, MS is most likely on these mailing lists and monitoring any 
> > mention of MSO and possible strategic plans being implemented on our 
> > part.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> 
> -- 
> Bridging digital divide through FOSS, Spoken Tutorials and Aakash
> http://aakashlabs.org/builds/genesis-reprint.pdf
> http://spoken-tutorial.org/CSI.pdf
> http://spoken-tutorial.org/What-is-a-Spoken-Tutorial-2-Minute-Video-English
> http://scilab.in/Textbook_Companion_Project
> http://scilab.in/Lab_Migration_Project
> 
> 
> -- 
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? 
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ho

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Kannan Moudgalya]

MS is giving this solution to India free of cost!

Kannan


On 24/04/13 7:35 PM, Marc Paré wrote:

Le 24/04/13 08:34 AM, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

Dear Kannan,

I think your question is: do we have an online version of Libreoffice ?
Full answer, we will, there's a prototype anyone can run (instructions
on the wiki), we just need resources to make sure we have a fully
dedicated team to fully develop it.
This LibreOffice OnLine is not distinct from LibreOffice software itself
(you can configure it as a server platform) and anyone with a reasonably
sized server will be able to use it and have several users run it in
their browser.

If your question is : do we have a whole FOSS desktop stack, we don't,
and we're not looking to have one. I agree with your latest comments
though, and I again invite interested people/teams who are in contact
with existing decision makers in ICT and education to ping me and we'll
open a private mailing list for advocacy/policy coordination.

best,
Charles.



Taking as example, our school system in Canada.

I have been a FOSS advocate for over a decade if not more and also sat 
on a committee called ESC (Elementary Software Committee) with my 
school board (for even longer) where we evaluated software destined to 
elementary school use. Our ESC committee also worked cooperatively 
with our IT staff making sure that any acquisitions did not take down 
our servers nor compromised them. In short, our ESC in conjunction 
with the IT staff were pretty well the deciding group for software 
purchases and adoptions.


At present, we do use some FOSS software but not LibreOffice. As we 
are all aware, moving to LibreOffice in some geographical regions is 
quite difficult due to the MSO penetration within these markets.


From my point of view, the only way that we could budge the elephant, 
would be to question the financial reasoning and logic behind using an 
expensive suite which often will cost between $35-50/seat per module 
(in Canada and most likely in the US). As most board of educations (in 
Canada) are financially accountable to a publicly elected School BoD, 
then our main option would be of demonstrating publicly the fact that, 
feature for feature LibreOffice offers the same educational advantages 
as MSO. If it were demonstrated publicly that LibreOffice at the 
primary level offered the same identical benefits as MSO BUT without 
its expensive cost, and, if we could demonstrate the LibreOffice suite 
was easily integrated on their server stacks, then, public pressure 
would mount with demands to the school boards of adopting the 
LibreOffice suite as their main teaching tool at the primary level.


If we were to mount a public ad campaign, in national, provincial and 
community newspapers, for example, starting with the most populous 
province in Canada, we could most likely start a wave of LibreOffice 
adoption throughout that province. Once the wave starts in a populous 
province, it then become difficult to stem this wave from propagating 
to other provinces and of even crossing borders.


The purpose of the ads would be to get people to discuss in public and 
help mount popular opinion on the savings of millions of dollars from 
unnecessary software.


We should definitely be looking at simplifying our cloud version of 
LibreOffice so that educational institutions have this on their list 
of options. Most of these institutions have their own stacks up and 
working already and this is what MSO is hoping to lock them into.


I don't believe that this strategy is anything new to MSO as they are 
most likely expecting it and hoping that we are languishing enough for 
them to lock their client base into their cloud services.


And, yes, MS is most likely on these mailing lists and monitoring any 
mention of MSO and possible strategic plans being implemented on our 
part.


Cheers,

Marc




--
Bridging digital divide through FOSS, Spoken Tutorials and Aakash
http://aakashlabs.org/builds/genesis-reprint.pdf
http://spoken-tutorial.org/CSI.pdf
http://spoken-tutorial.org/What-is-a-Spoken-Tutorial-2-Minute-Video-English
http://scilab.in/Textbook_Companion_Project
http://scilab.in/Lab_Migration_Project


--
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[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Indian academic institutions forced to use MS Office

[Marc Paré]

Le 24/04/13 08:34 AM, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

Dear Kannan,

I think your question is: do we have an online version of Libreoffice ?
Full answer, we will, there's a prototype anyone can run (instructions
on the wiki), we just need resources to make sure we have a fully
dedicated team to fully develop it.
This LibreOffice OnLine is not distinct from LibreOffice software itself
(you can configure it as a server platform) and anyone with a reasonably
sized server will be able to use it and have several users run it in
their browser.

If your question is : do we have a whole FOSS desktop stack, we don't,
and we're not looking to have one. I agree with your latest comments
though, and I again invite interested people/teams who are in contact
with existing decision makers in ICT and education to ping me and we'll
open a private mailing list for advocacy/policy coordination.

best,
Charles.



Taking as example, our school system in Canada.

I have been a FOSS advocate for over a decade if not more and also sat 
on a committee called ESC (Elementary Software Committee) with my school 
board (for even longer) where we evaluated software destined to 
elementary school use. Our ESC committee also worked cooperatively with 
our IT staff making sure that any acquisitions did not take down our 
servers nor compromised them. In short, our ESC in conjunction with the 
IT staff were pretty well the deciding group for software purchases and 
adoptions.


At present, we do use some FOSS software but not LibreOffice. As we are 
all aware, moving to LibreOffice in some geographical regions is quite 
difficult due to the MSO penetration within these markets.


From my point of view, the only way that we could budge the elephant, 
would be to question the financial reasoning and logic behind using an 
expensive suite which often will cost between $35-50/seat per module (in 
Canada and most likely in the US). As most board of educations (in 
Canada) are financially accountable to a publicly elected School BoD, 
then our main option would be of demonstrating publicly the fact that, 
feature for feature LibreOffice offers the same educational advantages 
as MSO. If it were demonstrated publicly that LibreOffice at the primary 
level offered the same identical benefits as MSO BUT without its 
expensive cost, and, if we could demonstrate the LibreOffice suite was 
easily integrated on their server stacks, then, public pressure would 
mount with demands to the school boards of adopting the LibreOffice 
suite as their main teaching tool at the primary level.


If we were to mount a public ad campaign, in national, provincial and 
community newspapers, for example, starting with the most populous 
province in Canada, we could most likely start a wave of LibreOffice 
adoption throughout that province. Once the wave starts in a populous 
province, it then become difficult to stem this wave from propagating to 
other provinces and of even crossing borders.


The purpose of the ads would be to get people to discuss in public and 
help mount popular opinion on the savings of millions of dollars from 
unnecessary software.


We should definitely be looking at simplifying our cloud version of 
LibreOffice so that educational institutions have this on their list of 
options. Most of these institutions have their own stacks up and working 
already and this is what MSO is hoping to lock them into.


I don't believe that this strategy is anything new to MSO as they are 
most likely expecting it and hoping that we are languishing enough for 
them to lock their client base into their cloud services.


And, yes, MS is most likely on these mailing lists and monitoring any 
mention of MSO and possible strategic plans being implemented on our part.


Cheers,

Marc


--
Marc Paré
m...@marcpare.com
http://www.parEntreprise.com
parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org


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