Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hello, I have thought about this issue for a while whether it should be raised or not, as the logo has been in use for a long time. And I'm not sure if it's ever discussed anywhere about the cultural issue with the GNOME's foot logo, which may obstruct GNOME promotion in some way. In Thai culture, and I'm pretty sure also in the nearby regions, showing foot is considered rude, as it's the lowest part of the body. And a variation of the word 'foot' in Thai is used for scolding, in the tone close to f**k or b*tch in English. I have had hard times introducing GNOME to Thai people who never know about it before, and their reactions are awkward when seeing the foot logo. I have to explain that it's a footprint, not the foot itself. But that doesn't help much, as footprint also indicates treading with a foot. Some people simply refuse GNOME with the reason that it's impolite. That sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to promote GNOME to new users as-is, or with distributions that try to keep upstream look-and-feels like Debian. But with Ubuntu or Fedora, where the main menu logo is replaced with something else, that's more OK. Just avoid letting them see the animated foot on Epiphany or Nautilus, until they are familiar with GNOME enough. I don't know if this is an issue for other cultures. Just want to raise it for awareness on an obstacle. Should there be an alternative logo for GNOME? For example, using a gnome head instead is OK. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: Some people simply refuse GNOME with the reason that it's impolite. That sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to promote GNOME to new users as-is, or with distributions that try to keep upstream look-and-feels like Debian. But with Ubuntu or Fedora, where the main menu logo is replaced with something else, that's more OK. Just avoid letting them see the animated foot on Epiphany or Nautilus, until they are familiar with GNOME enough. I've been thinking that it might be a good idea to replace the animated foot with a spinner like we do in Firefox for a while, but this felt like the tipping point. Filed a bug about it. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558367 - Andreas -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On 29 Oct 2008, at 09:18, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: Hello, I have thought about this issue for a while whether it should be raised or not, as the logo has been in use for a long time. And I'm not sure if it's ever discussed anywhere about the cultural issue with the GNOME's foot logo, which may obstruct GNOME promotion in some way. Yep, it's been brought up from time to time. I actually first mentioned it back in 2001! http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-2-0-list/2001-October/msg00264.html -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
It's quite funny to see how GNOME HIG advises to avoid body parts, but the actual GNOME logo is a foot(print). Do people in Thailand give the same reaction if the logo was a shoe? :) If not http://tango.freedesktop.org/favicon.ico could be an option. Hylke On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I have thought about this issue for a while whether it should be raised or not, as the logo has been in use for a long time. And I'm not sure if it's ever discussed anywhere about the cultural issue with the GNOME's foot logo, which may obstruct GNOME promotion in some way. In Thai culture, and I'm pretty sure also in the nearby regions, showing foot is considered rude, as it's the lowest part of the body. And a variation of the word 'foot' in Thai is used for scolding, in the tone close to f**k or b*tch in English. I have had hard times introducing GNOME to Thai people who never know about it before, and their reactions are awkward when seeing the foot logo. I have to explain that it's a footprint, not the foot itself. But that doesn't help much, as footprint also indicates treading with a foot. Some people simply refuse GNOME with the reason that it's impolite. That sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to promote GNOME to new users as-is, or with distributions that try to keep upstream look-and-feels like Debian. But with Ubuntu or Fedora, where the main menu logo is replaced with something else, that's more OK. Just avoid letting them see the animated foot on Epiphany or Nautilus, until they are familiar with GNOME enough. I don't know if this is an issue for other cultures. Just want to raise it for awareness on an obstacle. Should there be an alternative logo for GNOME? For example, using a gnome head instead is OK. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Hylke Bons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's quite funny to see how GNOME HIG advises to avoid body parts, but the actual GNOME logo is a foot(print). Do people in Thailand give the same reaction if the logo was a shoe? :) If not http://tango.freedesktop.org/favicon.ico could be an option. This should not be too offensive, compared to the foot. So, in 3.0, our gnome gets better dressed somehow. ;) However, how about moving away from that part of the body? Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: However, how about moving away from that part of the body? The following might be culturally offensive in some countries: ()() Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Žygimantas Beručka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tr, 2008 10 29 19:15 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan rašė: On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Hylke Bons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's quite funny to see how GNOME HIG advises to avoid body parts, but the actual GNOME logo is a foot(print). Do people in Thailand give the same reaction if the logo was a shoe? :) If not http://tango.freedesktop.org/favicon.ico could be an option. This should not be too offensive, compared to the foot. So, in 3.0, our gnome gets better dressed somehow. ;) However, how about moving away from that part of the body? And how about making it optional at compile time or changing the foot (e.g. by symlinking images) with something other at run-time if Thai (or any other for that matter) locale is set? People love the GNOME foot and I don't feel there is a real necessity to remove it completely just because some cultures have weird associations or meanings of something, or is it? Personally, I love the foot, too. But general Thai people who are not familiar with GNOME don't. So, we have the difficulty in promotion. And actually, what I proposed was an 'alternative' logo. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi, Thilo Pfennig wrote: Yeah, wouldnt GNOME 3.0 not a good chance to make a logo overhaul? I would suggest to try a new thing. AFAIK similar problems can occur in arabic and muslim countries. Maybe something like a GNOME hat (http://www.garbtheworld.com/items/g0085.shtml). Whenever I hear people propose abandoning an old logo completely, this question comes back to me: would you mind someone using the current GNOME logo for a completely unrelated project? If the answer is yes (which it would be for me), then your current logo probably still has some value. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:33:08AM +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote: Its obvious. Professional translation is a very complex task. You can not expect a high quality from volunteers who often do not have any training and are often developers who also do translations. In relation A lot of the GNOME translator teams are of very high quality. Just because it is paid for doesn't mean it is better. A free for all doesn't work though. This is also the reason why some Dutch translations are really bad (xchat-gnome used to be that way) and some are very good (any GNOME program). -- Regards, Olav -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Vincent Untz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the places where we show a GNOME foot should be themed, so just changing the icon theme should work. If this is not the case, then it's a bug, I'd say. (that's actually why you don't see the GNOME foot in Fedora, I think) Yes, theming does help. But I think that would diversify GNOME looks-and-feels, up to people's preferences. We propably need something more official when talking about, say, screenshots in documents, logos on web sites (e.g. I don't think many general people are happy with the current one in http://th.gnome.org), or any other kinds of promotions. Should there be an alternative logo for GNOME? For example, using a gnome head instead is OK. If we were to change the logo (or adopt a mascot), I'd propose a sea turtle. No idea why, except that I like it :-) That being said, it's kind of hard to change something like this, especially since many people are emotionally attached to the GNOME foot... If the logo needs to be associated with gnomes, I like Thilo's gnome hat. And it may include a gnome's head, i.e., something similar to EOG's former icon. But if it's to be a mascot, there're more possibilities. It can even be the Wanda fish. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Dave Neary schrieb: Whenever I hear people propose abandoning an old logo completely, this question comes back to me: I did not propose this just for fun. If it means that GNOME will never be used in maybe 1/4 of the worlds countries it would be stupid not to change. The question is if one wants to neglect cultural differences. With GNOME the question is how localization and internationalization are related to symbols that offend some people. I do not think it is wise to take this lightly just because oneself does not have that kind of problem. Question is maybe if people in the USA would welcome a new GNOME release to get the name Hussein ;-) -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Am Mittwoch, den 29.10.2008, 19:03 +0100 schrieb Thilo Pfennig: Dave Neary schrieb: Whenever I hear people propose abandoning an old logo completely, this question comes back to me: I did not propose this just for fun. If it means that GNOME will never be used in maybe 1/4 of the worlds countries it would be stupid not to change. The question is if one wants to neglect cultural differences. What about the other 3/4 that will be confronted with another logo and might not be able to link it against the GNOME brand they know? If it's really 1/4 it's bad, but if it's only 1/30 I'd call it multicultural reality on this world. Come up with anything that you consider non offending and I will probably find some culture where it IS offending. ;-) GNOME 3? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_(number)#As_a_lucky_or_unlucky_number Probably not enough reason to avoid 3... but GNOME 4? Considered an unlucky number in CKJ, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_(number)#In_other_fields . Enough reason to avoid 4? *shrug* andre -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | failed http://www.iomc.de/ | http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi, Thilo Pfennig wrote: Dave Neary schrieb: Whenever I hear people propose abandoning an old logo completely, this question comes back to me: I did not propose this just for fun. I understand. I did not reply in jest. When abandoning a logo, you are in essence saying that it has no value to you. If it has no value, you surely wouldn't mind seeing it being used for a completely different purpose. If it means that GNOME will never be used in maybe 1/4 of the worlds countries it would be stupid not to change. Which countries? The question is if one wants to neglect cultural differences. With GNOME the question is how localization and internationalization are related to symbols that offend some people. I do not think it is wise to take this lightly just because oneself does not have that kind of problem. Question is maybe if people in the USA would welcome a new GNOME release to get the name Hussein ;-) We've already had a GNOME release named after Genghis Khan... (OK, I'm not suggesting we do that again) It all comes down to a question of resources, brand value, and project identity. One argument says that whatever we choose it could potentially offend someone. A rebrand is onerous, and politically difficult to make happen. Being actuarial, I'd suggest that the return on moving away from the foot would cost more in the rest of the world in volunteer effort and communication than it would gain for us in Thailand among anyone who considers that an image of a foot is an insult. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
GNOME Events in 2009
I'd like to see us put together a plan for GNOME participation in conferences in 2009 or at least document what we are already planning. I started a wiki page with a number of open source events here, http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/events/2009. If everyone could document what they know is happening, then we could discuss what else we think we should be doing. I will also put the events in the GNOME calendar, but I wanted a place we could plan and document our participation. Please take a look at the wiki page and add your comments. (Even if you add what you know we did last year at any given event, that would be helpful.) Thanks! Stormy -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
Thilo Pfennig [EMAIL PROTECTED], Wed, 29 Oct 2008 00:33:08 +0100: Petr Kovar schrieb: Otherwise, it seems to be quite controversial and, may I say, disrespectful towards translators, whose work, in my humble translator's opinion, is as good and as bad as any other contributions. Its obvious. Professional translation is a very complex task. The same way as is the professional software development. You can not expect a high quality from volunteers who often do not have any training and are often developers who also do translations. In relation to code I guess its often the case that programers aho work on GNOME are professional programmers - not all - but many. How many of them are professionals, actually? 50 %? 25%? 75 %? And what can you expect from the rest? A poor quality code? So is, say, 50 % of the code of poor quality because it was produced by volunteers? The argument that I made was made in a specific context - that it would be desirable to have the whole site translated. The question I rose was in fact if it is better to have a good original english page or rather a not so good translation. And what about having a good original English page, and an excellent translation? A possibility you didn't mention somehow. Try to trust the GNOME l10n work a little bit more, please. So I did not start a thread to disrespect translators. In Maybe you didn't intend so, but your generalization is actually strongly disrespectful. Moin wiki not all help pages are translated because the translations often do not take up the changes fast enough. So generally there is a translation - but the goal is rather to have a good documentation as one that is outdated, wrong and often of lower quality. How can you say the quality is high? You ask me how? Well, I'm part of the process and I see what I see, that is committed volunteers and also professional translators (surprise!) working thoroughly on l10n, using various types of linguistic tools and having a complex and professional-like team work flow at the same time. So their translation outputs may not be always of professional quality, but hey, you can't say there's no possibility it may be so. That's my point here. I guess you cant prove the opposit either. For what it's worth, you should know that I don't have to. ;-) So better what makes you think the quality can be high? See above. I am sure people who translate are motivated and do their best - and it often helps greatly, especially on user interfaces and documentation. I did this myself for the german epiphany manual. But I know my shortcomings as well as I see those of other german translators. It does not matter if I say it or if I do not. Everybody can see it. I don't think so, really. I'm afraid you don't have the necessary insight here (I can't speak for the German translation team, but... you didn't speak about the German one only in your original statement, anyway). Or maybe there's this indefensible generalization of yours just because you want to move the website things the way you want at any cost, with or without the translations. But let me tell you that you picked the wrong part on this one. Best, Petr Kovar PS to others: sorry for being slightly off-topic. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:06 AM, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thilo Pfennig wrote: The question is if one wants to neglect cultural differences. With GNOME the question is how localization and internationalization are related to symbols that offend some people. I do not think it is wise to take this lightly just because oneself does not have that kind of problem. Question is maybe if people in the USA would welcome a new GNOME release to get the name Hussein ;-) We've already had a GNOME release named after Genghis Khan... (OK, I'm not suggesting we do that again) No, neither of these is comparable to the meaning of the foot in my culture. You may think of a release name like Mother F**ker instead. It all comes down to a question of resources, brand value, and project identity. One argument says that whatever we choose it could potentially offend someone. A rebrand is onerous, and politically difficult to make happen. Being actuarial, I'd suggest that the return on moving away from the foot would cost more in the rest of the world in volunteer effort and communication than it would gain for us in Thailand among anyone who considers that an image of a foot is an insult. I don't aim at replacing it. As I said, the logo has been used for a long time, and people love it, including me. The most I wish to get is a secondary logo (if alternative is not obvious enough). Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:06 AM, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which countries? Some of Thailand's neighbors certainly share this convention. I've got a confirmation from my Lao friend (Anousak in Cc:), at least. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
