[Marxism] (Video) Green Left Report: Greece, state of the media, activist news
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkSSeumf0us&list=UU8W1PDkZhEDTV9H31hwJQqQ&index=1&feature=plcp -- “Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is humanity’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.” — Oscar Wilde, Soul of Man Under Socialism “The free market is perfectly natural... do you think I am some kind of dummy?” — Jarvis Cocker Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Mexico: Protests as right claims poll win despite fraud evidence
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The official results in Mexico's July 1 presidential election were published in the early hours of July 4, claiming Enrique Pena Nieto had won. Pena Nieto, the candidate from the Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI), was declared the winner with a 6.5% margin over progressive candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador. A member of the National Regeneration Movement (Morena) and the Party of the Democratic Revolution (PRD), Lopez Obrador is a former Mexico City mayor and presidential candidate in 2006, when his victory was prevented by electoral fraud. This time, Lopez Obrador's supporters, as well as an important part of Mexican civil society organised mainly through the #Yo Soy 132 movement, have documented and reported electoral irregularities. http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/51589 -- “Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is humanity’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.” — Oscar Wilde, Soul of Man Under Socialism “The free market is perfectly natural... do you think I am some kind of dummy?” — Jarvis Cocker Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] What Pham Binh ACTUALLY SAID.....
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 11, 2012, at 9:05 PM, Jeff wrote: ...the preoccupation with the imperialist intervention that >isn't even happening... > Shane: But there is an intervention--not by the Official Imperialists but by the local fascist regimes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, including the death squads of "Al Qaeda (TM)." Is it "counterrevolutionary" to call on the Syrian revolutionaries to reject, and reject violently, such "help?" Suresh: Of course, you cannot have a counterrevolutionary without a revolution. The Middle East has recently become a Rorschach test upon which aging Marxists have envisioned the future of the revolutionary movement. It's a bad joke. Neither the Free Syrian Army nor the Syrian government is anything remotely related to bourgeois, let alone, proletarian revolutionaries. Meanwhile, the "revolution" in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador is ignored. Hugo Chavez has gotten a loud and clear message from American Trotskyists: go to hell. We've moved on to the latest fashion, Israeli blessed Islamic rebels in the Middle East. It's pathetic. Bolivarian socialism and Nepalese Maoism fell out of style in a handful of years to be replaced by bearded guerrillas in the Levant. Marx is rolling in his grave; he's been replaced by scatter-brained dilettantes. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What Pham Binh ACTUALLY SAID.....
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 11, 2012, at 9:05 PM, Jeff wrote: ...the preoccupation with the imperialist intervention that isn't even happening... But there is an intervention--not by the Official Imperialists but by the local fascist regimes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, including the death squads of "Al Qaeda (TM)." Is it "counterrevolutionary" to call on the Syrian revolutionaries to reject, and reject violently, such "help?" Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] World War II and Fascism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It wasn't until the German invasion of Poland in September 1939, that the UK and France banally declared war on Germany. It wasn't until December 8, one day after the Japanese attacks on US forces in Hawaii and the Phillipines that the US banally declared war on Japan. It wasn't until December 11, 1941, after the December 8, declaration of war by Germany Italy, that the US banally declared war on Germany and Italy. The US, UK and France had no problems with German and Italian forces banally supporting Franco during the Spanish Civil War, while banally declaring an arms embargo against the Spanish republic. At the same time US oil companies banally sold oil to Franco on credit, no less. Hells bells, I'm all banaled out. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] What Pham Binh ACTUALLY SAID.....
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I am just amazed at the sorts of questions that are being posed about a supposed call for imperialist intervention in Syria that never existed and a few of us being called before the inquisition not to ask WHAT I think should be done in Syria, but complex questions that sound like "HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN CALLING FOR IMPERIALIST INTERVENTION AND IN HOW MANY OTHER COUNTRIES?" The questions/accusations have gotten ridiculous and I don't have time to write a lot so I am herein posting the entire editorial of Pham Binh, which I almost completely agree with, so that future attacks against the article can (and should!!) quote from the article itself and not what the last person said it says. As anyone knows, the Syrians revolutionaries are not mainly calling for external military intervention, but most of them would like to receive more and better arms and supplies so that they are less at a disadvantage when confronting the Syrian military. And what Binh said that I absolutely agree with, and which the discussion on this list has so well illustrated, is that the preoccupation with the imperialist intervention that isn't even happening after 16 months of street battle (largely, I think, because the imperialists DIDN'T achieve their goals in Libya and learned from their mistake) that preoccupation with the IDEA of imperialist intervention has caused us "revolutionaries" to oppose revolution (no, I won't throw out the term) and so if the Syrians can't get their arms from Cuba (which I greatly lament) then of course they'll get them from wherever and whoever they can. So the irony is that the effect of this ultra-anti-imperialist position is to actually drive the Syrian revolutionaries to MORE reliance on those imperialist forces you think you are slamming whenever you sell a paper or raise a banner with your "pure" "uncompromising" anti-imperialist slogans. Below I have reformatted Binh's article, and I only ask that further criticism of his article, QUOTE FROM THE ARTICLE ITSELF! - Jeff http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=1097 Libya and Syria: When Anti-Imperialism Goes Wrong JULY 1, 2012 By Pham Binh of Occupy Wall Street, Class War Camp Reflexive opposition to Uncle Sams machinations abroad is generally a good thing. It is a progressive instinct that progressively declined in the 1990s, as presidents Bush Sr. and Clinton deftly deployed the U.S. military to execute humanitarian missions in Somalia, Haiti, and the Balkans and progressively increased in the 2000s, as Bush Jr. lurched from quagmire to disaster in transparent empire-building exercises in Afghanistan and Iraq. However, what is generally good is not good in every case. The progressive instinct to oppose anything the U.S. government does abroad became anything but progressive once the Arab Spring sprang up in Libya and Syria, countries ruled by dictatorships on Uncle Sams hit list. When American imperialisms hostility to the Arab Spring took a back seat to its hostility to the Ghadafi and Assad regimes (their collaboration with Bush Jr.s international torture ring notwithstanding), the Western lefts support for the Arab Spring took a back seat to its hostility to American imperialism. The moment the Syrian and Libyan revolutions demanded imperialist airstrikes and arms to neutralize the military advantage enjoyed by governments over revolutionary peoples, anti-interventionism became counter-revolutionary because it meant opposing aid to the revolution. Equivocal positions such as revolution yes, intervention no (the one I defended) were rendered utopian, abstract, and useless as a guide to action by this turn of events. Libyan Winter Heats Up To say that the Libyans were fortunate that anti-interventionists were too weak to block, disrupt, or affect NATOs military campaign would be an understatement. Libya would look like Syria today if the anti-interventionists won at home in the West. In both cases, the Western left mistakenly prioritized its anti-imperialist principles over its internationalist duty to aid these revolutions by any means necessary. By any means necessary presumably includes aid from imperialist powers or other reactionary forces. If this presumption is wrong, then we are not for the victory of the oppressed by any means necessary and should remove those words from our vocabulary in favor of by any means we in the West deem acceptable. When the going got tough and the F-16s got going over Libya, the revolutions fairweather friends in the West disowned it, claiming it had been hijacked by NATO. Instead of substantiating this claim with evidence that NATO successfully pushed the Libyans aside and seized control of their war against Ghadafi, the Western left instead 1) focused on the alleged mis
[Marxism] Chapter Four of Guy Robinson's unpublished book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Just posted on Rosa Lichtenstein's website http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Robinson_Essay_Seven_The_Material_And_The_Ex ternal.htm Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant www.foxymath.com Learn or Review Basic Math Refinance Now at 2.38% $150,000 DYNAMICREGION mortgage $583mo. Fast & Easy Quotes! (3.23%APR) http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ffe1d7831b481d772b77st54vuc Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] What Jack Sheppherd plays represent?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The world revolution in all three sectors are on the rise. These objective developments are going rise to Lenin's and Trotsky's politics. There are two processes Trotskyists need to understand. The masses are going into struggle in their millions in different countries. This is frightening the Imperialist Bourgeoisies. Mandel said in the early 1970s when the ruling class loses ideological control of the masses they go hysterical what it leads to in terms of revolutionary upheavals and gives opening to revolutonaires. What's worrying the Imperialist Bourgeoisies even more is that a layer of intellectuals could become Leninists and Trotskyists. Since 1989 the level of left leadership has not worried them as they have ideologically dominated them. Any kind of serious Leninist-Trotskyist cadre emerging would finish Capitalism off. A handful of cadre could tip the balance as there is not much holding the glue of Capitalism together and any kind of leadership the masses would make revolutions. This is why the British Guardian was so hysterical a week ago playing on the left's mistakes particulary on the workers' states because they know the revisionists cannot stop the dam bursting which will lead to Trotskyist developments. I am in the process of preparing a document answering Stuart Jefferies (the author of that Guardian article!) answering him; as well as the "State Capitalist" revisionists; and attacking Owen Jones's reformism. The ex-Trotskyists have not even got the training of ex-Trotskyists who degenerated in the past few decades but did not forget everything they once knew which gave them room to manouvre and some farsight from their early training. Most of the ex-Trotskyists are now so crude and lacking any theorectical sophisication any Trotskyist cadre given favourable objective situations can clear them out of the way fairly easily and quickly. Despite Jack Shepherd's liberal hesitation on Bolshevism, the very fact that he is putting forward the arguement for a Bolshevik-type of party is good in its self and a sign of the times. It represents a deepening of the middle class radicalization in Britain! This is shown by the fact that he is doing this play in Lewes, West Sussex which is a middle class urban and rural suburb! I have published these two Socialist Web pieces for information despite them beiong one of the worse groups on the international left! They are so sectarian on Trade Unions that at times it takes them to counter-revolutionary conclusions. They good at art critcism. On certain historical questions they defend Trotsky against Bourgeois elements like Robert Service. The paradox is that they are so sectarian (which in certain union situations is a left cover for scabbing - for example they argued for workers to stop a Unionisation drive in one workplace because Bureaucrats sell them out!) in their politics they are in direct conflict with Trotsky! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] World War II and Fascism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Kenneth Morgan wrote: > The opposition of the ruling classes in the UK and the US, to Germany had > nothing to do with Fascism. > If these stalwarts of democracy were so anti Fascist, where were they during > the Spanish Civil War, 1936-1939? Kenneth, what you write is true, but it is also completely banal. The United States was a Herrenvolk democracy with official Apartheid in its Southern States. Britain and France were vicious colonial powers. Soviet Russia was a deformation of the October Revolution. All of this is perfectly true. But in that sort of world-historical emergency, you take what you can get in terms of forces that are willing to stand up to an irrational, genocidal Fascism. With all my love and respect for Ernest Mandel, National Socialist Germany was not simply another imperialist power. It is a trivialization of National Socialism to regard it as merely equivalent to other imperialisms. Other imperialisms operate according to the instrumentalist logic of bourgeois society. Nazi Germany represented a step beyond that. To comrades who need some extra Summer reading, I would recommend Enzo Traverso's _Understanding the Nazi Genocide_ for a sharp Marxist analysis: http://www.iire.org/en/publications-mainmenu-56/notebooks-for-study-and-research-mainmenu-53/77-replaced.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Review by Socialist Web on latest Jack Shepherd play
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jul2012/jsre-j11.shtml Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Important artilce and interview by Socialist Web on Jack Shepphard despite them being the worse on the international left!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jul2012/jsin-j11.shtml Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] World War II and Fascism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The opposition of the ruling classes in the UK and the US, to Germany had nothing to do with Fascism. The German led Nazi government was opposed because of it's expanionist policies. Had the Nazi leadership been content with Germany's 1938 boundaries, Roosevelt, Chamberlain and Churchill could have cared less about the Nazis domestic policies. Churchill was an open admirer of Benito Mussolini. During a break during the 1938 Munich conferece, Chamberlain congragulated Hitler for being an "obstacle to Bolshevism." If these stalwarts of democracy were so anti Fascist, where were they during the Spanish Civil War, 1936-1939? This is no reflection on the individuals who served in the armed forces and the merchant marine of the allied side. Among their number there were indeed conscious anti Fascists. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Question about pre World War I SPD
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I remember reading a biography of Bismarck, that he suggested to the new Kaiser Wilhelm II, that the Geman government should crack down on the Left. Wilhelm rejected the idea, explaining "I have no wish to begin my reign with a civil war." This would indicate that the German Left was a force to be reckoned with, as early as 1888. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Tom Quinn > some huge moral imperative of the kind that existed in World War 2. I presume you mean throwing the British out of India. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Question about pre World War I SPD
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Sorry, you are correct as usual. I got misled by a too rapid reading of Lidtke. There seems to be something else at work at the time, the "Imperial Law of Associations". This may get deeper in German history than we all want to go, but in 1908 it became legal to form associations "as long as such associations did not pursue purposes forbidden by the penal code." With it "Women now had a fully recognized right to participate in political organizations." Also if an organization was political, the new law stated, "Persons under eighteen were neither permitted to join nor to participate in any but social activities." So the parties were legal by 1890 but there were, evidently, ongoing restrictions on participation? Wierd, wierd, and wierder. To the stacks! - Bill On 07/11/2012 2:45 PM, Einde O'Callaghan wrote: The Anti-Socialist Law was Bismarck's bab, so to speak, and lapsed after the Reichstag refused top renew it on 25 January 1890 - in the election on 20 Februarty the SPD got 19.5% of the vote - Bismarck resigned on 18 March and no further serious attempt was made to reintroduce the law (although there were a number of threats to do so). Einde O'Callaghan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Dresden Bombing and More WWII Air War Issues
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Being from an Irish Republican background, I have always been in conflict with my hatred of Winston Churchill for his imperialist murderous actions as the person who ordered the use of poison gas on Iraqis to put down their revolt after WWI and his policies in Ireland that were no better. Yet I am of the opinion that giving aid to the British air forces prior to Pearl Harbor during the period known as the Battle For Britain, was important in the defeat of Nazi Germany. While understanding the then Trotskyist groups basic position of only supporting the Soviet Union and some left wing partisans who fought the Axis in WWII, as compared to the CPUSA swing in positions, that gave total uncritical support to US capitalism, even in the racist interment of Japanese Americans (which I find unjustifiable) - the Air Battle For Britain and the volunteers from several nations that aided the British Air Forces - has remained an exception to the rule of only aiding the Soviet forces, from my perspective. With understanding the history of WWII (and the major decisive Soviet battles in Stalingrad and Kursk) - how should one view the Battle of Britain, when that nation's air force stood alone in fighting the Nazi air force. I believe the support given to that nation's air force, in pilots (including volunteers and not just assigned), equipment and supplies - was a good thing. Does anyone on this list know the position of the British Communist Party on the Battle for Britain (prior to the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union?) - both during the actual time and then later in review? Or of the CPUSA? Obviously Joseph Stalin said nothing publicly, so curious on what others on this list think about the Battle For Britain - and on what CP'ers actually did during that battle? > Subject: Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing > > as a British imperialist > > > On Jul 11, 2012, at 4:02 PM, John Wesley wrote: > > Churchill...wasn't the divinity that the American and British > > ruling classes always painted him to be. > > But he was indeed the imperialist arch-villain that socialists and > communists always knew him to be. > > Shane Mage Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to Imperialist Intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Actually there was also the context of the fall of France and the Nazi Conquest of Western Europe in May-June 1940 and the subsequent Battle of Britain that caused anti-fascists concern as much as any national interest. Moreover, leading sections of the ruling class that included an overwhelming consensus among Republicans was that no threat to national interests was posed by Hitler for whom they had warm feelings. Consistent with that, although some socialists and progressives like Norman Thomas joined with it, the prevalent tenor among the isolationists and the Lindbergh-led America First crowd was distinctly reactionary. It was concern about this and the danger that a fascist sympathizing isolationist would get the Republican nomination- as Dewey, Taft and Vandenberg were all such-that caused a section of the ruling class to get behind Willkie at the last minute as a shill for FDR to cover the off-chance of an FDR defeat in his unprecedented bid for a third time. This period is covered in some detail in Doris Kearns Goodwin's worthy book, "No Ordinary Time". On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Kenneth Morgan wrote: > > Prior to the Japanese attack on US military bases in Hawaii, the majority > of the people in the US opposed US entry into World War II. Earlier in > 1941, the extension of military conscription, first passed in 1940, barely > passed Congress. If memory serves me, by a 12 vote margin. The rationale > for war by the Roosevelt administration had more to do with perceived > national interests, than any moral crusade. Like Tom, many of my family > members including my father, were World War II vets. Listening to their > stories is what motivated my enlistment in the Army during the Vietnam war. > Sometimes I'm wrong. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I seem to recall reading that there may have been a desire on the part of war planners (and Churchill) to demonstrate to the Russians 1) our willingness to help their advance (by closing down major re-supply routes to the Eastern front) and 2) the power of allied bombing, should Stalin be thinking about going beyond Berlin. Probably all conjecture. - Bill On 07/11/2012 3:25 PM, John O'Brien wrote: The 1945 City of Dresden bombings by the Allied air forces served no military purpose, but to inflict suffering on German civilians. Not all Dresden occupants were Nazis, especially the children. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reform in Italy & France?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jul2012/ital-j10.shtml I'm not sure Vendola's criticism was "pathetic": it seems the only real objection on the Italian political scene. --CGE On Jul 6, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Vladimiro Giacche' wrote: The difference with Syriza is crystal clear: Syriza DOESN'T want to ally with Pasok (and hollande naturally didn't do any emergency government with Sarkozy...). vlad Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Re: Guy Robinson 1928-2012
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Original Message Subject:Re: Guy Robinson 1928-2012 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:11:05 +0100 From: Rosa Lichtenstein To: Louis Proyect Hi, Louis, You might like to know that I have now posted Chapter Four of of Guy's unpublished book: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Robinson_Essay_Seven_The_Material_And_The_External.htm_* Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 11, 2012, at 4:02 PM, John Wesley wrote: Churchill...wasn't the divinity that the American and British ruling classes always painted him to be. But he was indeed the imperialist arch-villain that socialists and communists always knew him to be. Shane Mage "L'après-vie, c'est une auberge espagnole. L'on n'y trouve que ce qu'on a apporté." Bardo Thodol Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Syria -two newly published articles
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I admit to falling behind on the Syria discussion. These two pieces look worthwhile. ken h Danger of NATO intervention looms as Syrian crisis deepens http://socialistaction.blogspot.ca/2012/07/danger-of-nato-intervention-looms-as.html The ongoing potential of the Syrian revolution http://socialistaction.blogspot.ca/2012/07/ongoing-potential-of-syrian-revolution.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] North Star shows the way to Imperialist Intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Prior to the Japanese attack on US military bases in Hawaii, the majority of the people in the US opposed US entry into World War II. Earlier in 1941, the extension of military conscription, first passed in 1940, barely passed Congress. If memory serves me, by a 12 vote margin. The rationale for war by the Roosevelt administration had more to do with perceived national interests, than any moral crusade. Like Tom, many of my family members including my father, were World War II vets. Listening to their stories is what motivated my enlistment in the Army during the Vietnam war. Sometimes I'm wrong. Tom Quinn wrote: "Shane is expressing the traditional Trotskyist view of World War 2, shared only by them and a few right wing libertarians, that there really wasn't any material difference between the allies and the axis and that guys like Roosevelt and Hitler were really moral equivalents and thus the Second World War should have been opposed as in essence a replay of the World War 1. I have never agreed with that view and I would concede that that is in part conditioned by my upbringing in this country in a family of proud World War 2 veterans. Nonetheless, the SWPers and libertarians like Lawrence Dennis were entitled to their views, which they courageously clung to even in the face of criminal prosecution, and in the case of Cannon and the SWPers, imprisonment." Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yes and one of them was the worthy David Dellinger who went to prison. And yes, these historians have served to demythologize World War 2 even for those who might not accept their ultimate conclusions. Below is the text of a letter I sent to the New York Times regarding a recent review of the latest book on Hitler in the World War 2 "allied propaganda" hack genre which in essence asks the question, how was a loser like Hitler able to rise to such power and wreak such havoc (what Lincoln Rockwell in his 1967 Playboy interview with Alex Haley referred to as "all that hooey about Hitler")? Hey, how did a functional illiterate and second rate failure of a Hollywood actor like Reagan get to be US President? Dagmar Herzog’s review of A.N. Wilson’s “Hitler” is well taken, but her critique does not go far enough in deconstructing what is in essence another example of superficial World War 2 hack work. While surely Hitler may not be a person deserving of any fair treatment and while certainly the exigencies of World War 2 made cartoonish attacks on the enemy Leader fair game, that historic contest ended 70 years ago, calling now for a more objective and professional approach to this subject, particularly by those who claim to be academic historians. Moreover, that approach trivializes fascism and the Second World War by reducing it to a question of the character and quirks of a single individual. Thus, that during the First World War Hitler fought in 49 different battles and was blinded by poison gas and ultimately was awarded Germany's highest military honor, the Iron Cross, gets ignored, either out of intellectual dishonesty on the part of the author, or because of a lazy cherry picking of facts by someone who really doesn't command his subject matter. Moreover, that such a supposedly lazy and inconsequential person as Hitler, whose commanders ostensibly had no confidence in, could be appointed a political officer by the general staff in 1919 during the suppression of the Spartacist uprising and then be involved in an attempted coup in 1924 with Field Marshal Luddendorf, a German figure comparable to Pershing or MacArthur, is beyond me. Thus, the question comes to mind, in what sense was Hitler a mediocrity? as a political gangster? Perhaps if he had had the patrician bona fides of the likes of Neville Chamberlain-or George W. Bush-he would have been less of one? As Hitler biographer John Toland once asked, how can a person who led a nation in conquering a third of the Earth, causing the death of 50 million people be viewed as a mediocrity, "run of the mill" or a pathetic loser? Egregious yes, mediocre no. Adolf Hitler was no mere seasoned thug, but a world class political gangster and counter-revolutionary imperialist of the first rank. On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > > That might have been true from 1940 to 1960 but not afterwards. A whole > generation of historians who studied with William Appleman Williams and > others from the Progressivist tradition going back to Charles Beard rejected > the "Good War" hypothesis. Among them were Gar Alperovitz and Gabriel Kolko. > > Furthermore, beyond the Trotskyists and the rightwing isolationists, there > were pacifists like Lew Hill who went to form Pacifica radio in 1946. > > It's true that most on the left backed FDR but so did it back the internment > of Japanese-Americans, a no-strike pledge and all the rest of the shit that > went along with it. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == That's right -- Schlachthof 5! Yes, Churchill had a few faults. Needless to say, he wasn't the divinity that the American and British ruling classes always painted him to be. Mike G El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado! From: Tom Quinn To: Mr. Goodman Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Really, and there was also an excellent movie of it. On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Andrew Pollack wrote: > > And good lord, hasn't anyone on this list read "Slaughterhouse-Five"?! > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/godisamethodist%40yahoo.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The facts are there. There was a genocide in Dresden and that should not be forgotten along with any other massacre that we can ever remember. The leftists should not, then, avoid this kind of language, because not using it,] is ignoring the evils caused, in this case, by the capital. The difference here, though, in the nazi use of the tragedy to justify more criminal bloodbath. This is similar to not criticizing Israel for its nearly 60 year long continuous massacre of Palestinians, because that would hurt the suffering the Jews along history and the memory of the Holocaust (as if the Holocaust was any different in scale or tragedy from any other, including those that happened to the Roma, Slavs and Communists in the same concentration camps of nazi germany) 2012/7/11 Angelus Novus > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > Leftists should not adopt this kind of language. > > Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/11/2012 3:32 PM, Tom Quinn wrote: Shane is expressing the traditional Trotskyist view of World War 2, shared only by them and a few right wing libertarians, that there really wasn't any material difference between the allies and the axis and that guys like Roosevelt and Hitler were really moral equivalents and thus the Second World War should have been opposed as in essence a replay of the World War 1. That might have been true from 1940 to 1960 but not afterwards. A whole generation of historians who studied with William Appleman Williams and others from the Progressivist tradition going back to Charles Beard rejected the "Good War" hypothesis. Among them were Gar Alperovitz and Gabriel Kolko. Furthermore, beyond the Trotskyists and the rightwing isolationists, there were pacifists like Lew Hill who went to form Pacifica radio in 1946. It's true that most on the left backed FDR but so did it back the internment of Japanese-Americans, a no-strike pledge and all the rest of the shit that went along with it. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Shane is expressing the traditional Trotskyist view of World War 2, shared only by them and a few right wing libertarians, that there really wasn't any material difference between the allies and the axis and that guys like Roosevelt and Hitler were really moral equivalents and thus the Second World War should have been opposed as in essence a replay of the World War 1. I have never agreed with that view and I would concede that that is in part conditioned by my upbringing in this country in a family of proud World War 2 veterans. Nonetheless, the SWPers and libertarians like Lawrence Dennis were entitled to their views, which they courageously clung to even in the face of criminal prosecution, and in the case of Cannon and the SWPers, imprisonment. Nonetheless, Lincoln and the Union armies committed numerous crimes, like aspects of Sherman's march to the sea. Did that make them moral equivalents with the Confederates? obviously not. History rarely operates in a pure manichean fashion between polar moral opposites in practice. It sure didn't in Russia during its revolution and civil during 1917-21. On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Shane Mage wrote: > If Tom Quinn is looking for a "moral imperative" like that for imperialist > intervention in the second Imperialist World War he will find it much more > easily in Syria, Libya, or even Iraq. The > Rooseveltian/Churchillian/Stalinian war policy was nothing short of > genocidal, both actively (the extermination bombings of German cities from > Hamburg to Dresden, the Tokyo firestorm raid, Hiroshima, Nagasaki) Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My last name is O'Brien. And I never considered David Irving as a legitimate historical source. Or do I consider Frederick Taylor's work if he cites the German Army Weapons Office that exagerated its actual status and the RAF and US air forces, which were major participants in these bombings, and of course would try to cover up, as the chief arguments for the MASS bombing of all of Dresden and not any separate pin point aerial bombing. The 1945 City of Dresden bombings by the Allied air forces served no military purpose, but to inflict suffering on German civilians. Not all Dresden occupants were Nazis, especially the children. There was nothing in the city of Dresden in 1945, that could alter the course of that war. > > > > > John Obrien wrote: > > > The City of Dresden was NOT a justified strategic military site on the > > nights of that mass bombing. > > > Have you read Frederick Taylor's book? It's not as cut and dried. Most of > the arguments about "innocent Dresden" are inherited from David Irving's > book, which is decades out of date, and thoroughly discredited. > > > From Wikipedia: > > Dresden was Germany's seventh-largest city and, according to the RAF at the > time, the largest remaining unbombed built-up area.[25] Taylor writes that an > official 1942 guide to the city described it as "one of the foremost > industrial locations of the Reich" and in 1944, the German Army High > Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops > that were supplying the army with materiel.[26] The contribution to the Nazi > war effort may not have been as significant as the planners thought.[27] > The US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report in response to the > international concern about the bombing, which was classified until December > 1978.[28] This said that there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the > city > supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.[29] According to > the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory > (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory > (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories > producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch & Sterzel AG); gears and > differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebrüder Bassler). It also > said there were barracks, hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot.[30] > The USAF report also states that two of Dresden's traffic routes were of > military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and > east-west along the central European uplands.[31] The city was at the > junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the > Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.[31] Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW > held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, > later said that "I saw > with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German > troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with > supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to > meet the Russians."[32]" > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Jeff Republishes Ken H: "People in Libya and Syria are autonomous. They don't have to agree with us and we don't have to agree with them. But we should look for every opportunity to reach out to them." Here is a thoughtful reply: First question: To whom in Syria do we reach out; or Libya or, for that matter, the people of the United States? Do we reach out to the "Syrian people"? Or, do we reach out to the Syrian workers and farmers? Or, do we reach out to the Syrian revolutionaries involved in the struggle against Assad? And, no, the easy answer of "to them all" is insufficient. In the case of the Syrian "people", are we trying to reach out to the elements of what passes for the liberal bourgeoisie, the Syrian army regulars and their generals, the Syrian masses in the street and the revolutionaries among them because they are all fighting Assad and his own large constituency still supportive of him? You should be able to see where I'm going here. I don't really believe any of you or Binh are taking a "nationalist" view of "reaching out". In reading Binh carefully, I get the distinct impression that he and some of his supporters on this list are interested in being able to say "yes" to Syrian "revolutionaries" when those revolutionaries feel they must be willing to allow imperialist aid so that they don't get massacred as a way to "reach out". [ I should say here that I am a supporter of Binh on most if not all things except his strident belief that anyone who opposes his position on Syria is counterrevolutionary; a rather "knee-jerk" reaction of his own I might add]. Now, I am not really sure--at least from reading Binh's view or from any of the supporters of that position--that I really understand (a) whether these revolutionaries actually are "revolutionary" or (b) who such revolutionaries are. It might be useful to know to whom in Syria this position is trying to reach. Second question: What specifically are we supporting among the myriad demands by the variegated groups and currents in the Assad opposition with regard to Imperialist aid? Have I missed something either in the bourgeois press or the revolutionary press where there is a generalized call adopted by large sections of the Syrian mass movement to "bring in the imperialist troops" (or, even "HELP!" NATO/USA We Demand You Kill Assad For Us!)? Are we being asked to call for Imperialist aid because there is an organized revolutionary opposition serving as a vanguard that has issued such a call for help from the revolutionary Marxists throughout the world? Or, are we simply looking at what is happening in Syria, rightfully outraged by the bloodshed at the hands of Assad, and--like the Imperialists--opining that "something's got to be done" and because the Imperialists have a ready war machine "handy", well, let's use them to get that murdering scoundrel out. To be plain and not be accused of simply being facetious, the first part of my question indicates that revolutionaries must base themselves on a real understanding of the forces within the struggle and find a meaningful, and "thoughtful" way to promote support for a revolutionary struggle that not only helps, but is not a hindrance either to comrade revolutionaries on the ground or, most important, to the interests of Syria's (in this case) working masses. The second part of my set of questions indicates that perhaps taking a moralistic (albeit a humanist moralism) view and offering opinions to a wholly volatile and diverse mass opposition with multiple class perspectives about how "we are with you" and "we care" all primarily based on bourgeois media hype intended to justify imperialist intervention is perhaps a "knee-jerk" reaction. Third question: Why is seeking imperialist aid--a desire of the bourgeoisie in Syria and a perceived necessity by some "revolutionary" elements in the mass movement--helpful in "reaching out" to the Syrian people? Is the relationship of forces within the Syrian opposition that should the Imperialists carry out their "limited" mission of aiding the opposition (making the enormously dubious assumption that such limited aid is truly NATO/USA's only intent) the revolutionary forces could successfully stop Imperialism from further incursions or helping establish an equally oppressive bourgeoisie, but one that would only be oppressive to the previously oppressive sectors of Syrian society (just like in Iraq between Sunni and Shiite)? Specifically, are the revolutionary forces really capable of leading a Syrian workers' revolution once Assad is overthrown with Imperialist aid to "get them started"? And, are these revolutionary forces (the ones Binh and others seem to want revolutionary Marxists to support) actually revolutionar
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == right, and who advocated supporting foreign imperialist intervention there? Not the Bolsheviks. On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:57 AM, John Obrien wrote: > And your trying to compare the Russian 1905/1917 Revolutions and the forces > involved in those revolutions with the current Syrian situation - also does > not > compare, in my opinion. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Really, and there was also an excellent movie of it. On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Andrew Pollack wrote: > > And good lord, hasn't anyone on this list read "Slaughterhouse-Five"?! > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == That's fine, but who gives a shit about what Paul's motives are? So if the liberals have real "Wilsonian" humanitarian motives we should support them? I don't think so. and guess what? the Syrians and the Arabs actually aren't bothering the United States, neither were the Vietnamese, neither was Saddam. I agree with Jeff on one thing, however, no to imperialist intervention in Syria and the Middle East. On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Jeff wrote: > > Excuse me, but the outlook of Ron Paul is that he doesn't give a shit about > the fate of Syrians or any other Arabs or people of color AS LONG AS they > don't bother the United States. And that means he has no problem with the > continued brutal rule of Assad or previously of Gaddafi or Saddam Hussein > or the onslaught of the Bosnian Serbs. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > > See also Mandel's "The Meaning of the Second World War" on the consciously > reactionary political perspective behind saturation bombing -- and the > boomerang effect on German working class consciousness. And good lord, hasn't anyone on this list read "Slaughterhouse-Five"?! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis Proyect: > Most of us know about Dresden from Howard Zinn Zinn is a moral and intellectual giant, and one of my heroes, but his citation of the figure of 100,000 is just wrong. Not that I'm trying to make a numbers game out of it. The bombing of civilians is a crime, but the point is that Dresden was not an act of "extermination" (the term Shane used), and given the strategic considerations that motivated it, is not comparable to the Holocaust, which had no other motivation other than the desire to exterminate Jews. There was no comparable plan on the side of the Allies to exterminate Germans as a race. Not even by Morgenthau. Every February, a broad leftist coalition spanning everybody from Die Linke to anarchists to local Antifa groups gathers in Dresden to prevent the march of Neo-Nazis who misuse the bombing of Dresden to advance their own agenda, and referring to it as an act of "extermination" is one of the main tricks the Nazis use. Leftists should not adopt this kind of language. I didn't want to sidetrack the discussion about Libya, so I'll stop for now. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Comrade Jeff, Your response to my questions - reflects you know very little about the current political forces in Syria. But then what are your sources of information that you are making your calls to support the insurgents? Is it just the corporate media of CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera - or what? Your attempting to equate the removal of the Egyptian Mubarak government with Syria is not accurate. The imperialists SUPPORTED the Mubarak regime. They now support the current military regime - as they did under Mubarak. They never engaged in efforts, they are now doing against the Assad regime. [The events are still unfolding in Egypt with the new president and his challenge to the military regime over having a parliament.] And your trying to compare the Russian 1905/1917 Revolutions and the forces involved in those revolutions with the current Syrian situation - also does not compare, in my opinion. Again, I welcome the Syrian people removing Bashar al-Assad and see some positive signs of this happening, without the imperialist forces being in charge. But I oppose the CIA led groupings and individuals featured on the corporate media coverage. This includes the NGO's that are under capitalist control and seen in interviews seeking imperialists intervention. Be concrete - either give the names of the Syrian left groups we should be aiding and supporting - or be like most on this list (not knowing the current situation and players in the Syrian conflict) and stop calling for support for the U. S. government and its partners intervening. This thread all started with Pham Binh being wrong in giving support to forces that are not socialist and reactionary. It would be best to return to the focus on Pham Binh and his response to the legitimate criticism against his statements that started this thread. Perhaps Pham has more information on these Syrian groups that he seeks support for, than Jeff? But I doubt it. I believe Pham's sources are the same corporate media (CNN, etc.), that were cheer leaders for the 2003 Iraq Invasion. > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:13:02 +0200 > From: meis...@xs4all.nl > Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention > > > > > >Comrade Jeff, > >. > >what do you suggest to support a socialist revolution in Syria and elsewhere? > > Well let's see. The best road toward socialist revolution in Syria (which > may or may not happen) would be to support the DEMOCRATIC revolution, every > bit as much as the October revolution was preceded by the February > revolution which got rid of the Czar but didn't lead toward socialism itself. > > >Is there a Syrian socialist group you seek support for? > > There certainly have been various Syrian left groups in the past, but > unfortunately I haven't learned anything at all about the internal Syrian > situation from reading the posts on this list. That's the sort of thing I'd > like to see changed > > - Jeff > > > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/causecollector%40msn.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Dresden was a strategic city and accordingly a target of allied bombing. The war was both strategically and tactically over. The bombing had and could have no strategic rationale. So what was its intent, if not genocidal (ie., to kill Germans simply because they were Germans)? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Question about pre World War I SPD
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 11.07.2012 19:10, William Quimby wrote: I haven't read Steenson but I know that chapter 2 is on Germany. Lidtke touches on your question in the chapter "Labor Movement Associations: Growth, Structure, and Composition". However he focuses more on the "free trade associations" and their efforts to unite "arbeiters" around sport and cultural activities. The SPD drew heavily on these essentially "non-political" organizations (underground as it were until the anti-Socialist law was repealed on May 15, 1908, and above ground after) for membership and support. The Anti-Socialist Law was Bismarck's bab, so to speak, and lapsed after the Reichstag refused top renew it on 25 January 1890 - in the election on 20 Februarty the SPD got 19.5% of the vote - Bismarck resigned on 18 March and no further serious attempt was made to reintroduce the law (although there were a number of threats to do so). Einde O'Callaghan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/11/2012 2:21 PM, Angelus Novus wrote: Have you read Frederick Taylor's book? It's not as cut and dried. Most of the arguments about "innocent Dresden" are inherited from David Irving's book, which is decades out of date, and thoroughly discredited. Most of us know about Dresden from Howard Zinn: Italy had bombed cities in the Ethiopian war; Italy and Germany had bombed civilians in the Spanish Civil War; at the start of World War II German planes dropped bombs on Rotterdam in Holland, Coventry in England, and elsewhere. Roosevelt had described these as "inhuman barbarism that has profoundly shocked the conscience of humanity." These German bombings were very small compared with the British and American bombings of German cities. In January 1943 the Allies met at Casablanca and agreed on large-scale air attacks to achieve "the destruction and dislocation of the German military, industrial and economic system and the undermining of the morale of the German people to the point where their capacity for armed resistance is fatally weakened." And so, the saturation bombing of German cities began- with thousand-plane raids on Cologne, Essen, Frankfurt, Hamburg. The English flew at night with no pretense of aiming at "military" targets; the Americans flew in the daytime and pretended precision, but bombing from high altitudes made that impossible. The climax of this terror bombing was the bombing of Dresden in early 1945, in which the tremendous heat generated by the bombs created a vacuum into which fire leaped swiftly in a great firestorm through the city. More than 100,000 died in Dresden. (Winston Churchill, in his wartime memoirs, confined himself to this account of the incident: "We made a heavy raid in the latter month on Dresden, then a center of communication of Germany's Eastern Front.") Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == John Obrien wrote: > The City of Dresden was NOT a justified strategic military site on the nights > of that mass bombing. Have you read Frederick Taylor's book? It's not as cut and dried. Most of the arguments about "innocent Dresden" are inherited from David Irving's book, which is decades out of date, and thoroughly discredited. >From Wikipedia: Dresden was Germany's seventh-largest city and, according to the RAF at the time, the largest remaining unbombed built-up area.[25] Taylor writes that an official 1942 guide to the city described it as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich" and in 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops that were supplying the army with materiel.[26] The contribution to the Nazi war effort may not have been as significant as the planners thought.[27] The US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report in response to the international concern about the bombing, which was classified until December 1978.[28] This said that there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.[29] According to the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch & Sterzel AG); gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebrüder Bassler). It also said there were barracks, hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot.[30] The USAF report also states that two of Dresden's traffic routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands.[31] The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.[31] Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, later said that "I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians."[32]" Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Supposedly, Dresden was hit as Churchill's revenge for Coventry ? He was quite aware that it held nothing of strategic importance. Mike G. El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado! From: John Obrien To: Mr. Goodman Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:13 PM Subject: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The City of Dresden was NOT a justified strategic military site on the nights of that mass bombing. It was wrong - and not necessary in efforts to defeat Nazi Germany. I changed this subject heading - so it is not confused with the Syrian intervention thread. > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:02:01 +0100 > From: fuerdenkommunis...@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention > > > > > The point is, no act of genocide took place during the bombing of Dresden. > Dresden was a strategic city and accordingly a target of allied bombing. > That civilians died is of course horrible, but its in no way comparable to > the Holocaust, neither in terms of numbers nor of intent, unless you want to > engage in the obscene intellectual exercise of trying to find a "rational" > aim behind the death camps. > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/godisamethodist%40yahoo.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Dresden Bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The City of Dresden was NOT a justified strategic military site on the nights of that mass bombing. It was wrong - and not necessary in efforts to defeat Nazi Germany. I changed this subject heading - so it is not confused with the Syrian intervention thread. > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:02:01 +0100 > From: fuerdenkommunis...@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention > > > > > The point is, no act of genocide took place during the bombing of Dresden. > Dresden was a strategic city and accordingly a target of allied bombing. > That civilians died is of course horrible, but its in no way comparable to > the Holocaust, neither in terms of numbers nor of intent, unless you want to > engage in the obscene intellectual exercise of trying to find a "rational" > aim behind the death camps. > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't have time to write much now, nor have I heard any new arguments, but here's a quick answer to your questions: At 10:51 11-07-12 -0700, John Obrien wrote: > >Comrade Jeff, >. >what do you suggest to support a socialist revolution in Syria and elsewhere? Well let's see. The best road toward socialist revolution in Syria (which may or may not happen) would be to support the DEMOCRATIC revolution, every bit as much as the October revolution was preceded by the February revolution which got rid of the Czar but didn't lead toward socialism itself. Or the other obvious answer, of course, is that there's no reason the death of 15,000+ Syrians and the jailing and torturing of so many others can't be addressed without a concrete plan for socialist revolution. Or am I just too sentimental? >I am not interested in giving support or funds to some Islamic group Who was talking about supporting some group, Islamic or otherwise? I was talking about supporting the revolution and hopefully the more progressive elements will come to the fore, but if not I'm not going to apologize. Any more than I apologize for having supported the Egyptian revolution which has brought an Islamicist to power, or more correctly to the presidency, with Mubarek's military still in control. Should I have apologized for supporting the February revolution if the October revolution had subsequently failed? >Is there a Syrian socialist group you seek support for? There certainly have been various Syrian left groups in the past, but unfortunately I haven't learned anything at all about the internal Syrian situation from reading the posts on this list. That's the sort of thing I'd like to see changed - Jeff > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Greek Far Right Hangs a Target on Immigrants
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == NY Times July 10, 2012 Greek Far Right Hangs a Target on Immigrants By LIZ ALDERMAN ATHENS — A week after an extremist right-wing party gained an electoral foothold in Greece’s Parliament earlier this summer, 50 of its members riding motorbikes and armed with heavy wooden poles roared through Nikaia, a gritty suburb west of here, to telegraph their new power. As townspeople watched, several of them said in interviews, the men careened around the main square, some brandishing shields emblazoned with swastikalike symbols, and delivered an ultimatum to immigrants whose businesses have catered to Nikaia’s Greeks for nearly a decade. “They said: ‘You’re the cause of Greece’s problems. You have seven days to close or we’ll burn your shop — and we’ll burn you,’ ” said Mohammed Irfan, a legal Pakistani immigrant who owns a hair salon and two other stores. When he called the police for help, he said, the officer who answered said they did not have time to come to the aid of immigrants like him. A spokesman for the party, Golden Dawn, denied that anyone associated with the group had made such a threat, and there are no official numbers on attacks against immigrants. But a new report by Human Rights Watch warns that xenophobic violence has reached “alarming proportions” in parts of Greece, and it accuses the authorities of failing to stop the trend. Since the election, an abundance of anecdotal evidence has indicated a marked rise in violence and intimidation against immigrants by members of Golden Dawn and its sympathizers. They are emboldened, rights groups say, by political support for their anti-immigrant ideology amid the worst economic crisis to hit Greece in a decade. As the downturn deepens across Europe, the political right has risen in several countries, including France, the Netherlands and Hungary. But the situation in Greece shows how quickly such vigilante activity can expand as a government is either too preoccupied with the financial crisis or unable or disinclined to deal with the problem. Greece’s new prime minister, Antonis Samaras, has said he wants to put an end to the “invasion” of illegal immigrants, but “without vigilantism, without extremism.” Yet, as attacks mount even against legal immigrants, he has addressed the violence infrequently. No country willingly tolerates a large population of illegal immigrants, and Greece, a gateway for migrants from Africa and Asia, has long had more than its share. Its border with Turkey is regarded as the most porous in Europe, and European laws require countries to return illegal migrants to the country from which they entered the European Union. While that law is suspended in Greece pending a court case, many remain trapped here because of paperwork problems, with no job or means of integrating. They wind up settling in rougher neighborhoods, deepening trends of poverty, crime and drug dealing, and unleashing a wave of popular discontent for Golden Dawn to ride. Threats, beatings and vows by Golden Dawn followers to “rid the land of filth,” sporadic problems in recent years, have become commonplace since the party claimed 18 of Parliament’s 300 seats in the elections last month, even after Ilias Kasidiaris, the party’s spokesman, repeatedly slapped a female rival during a televised debate. While some attackers are being arrested, Human Rights Watch and other groups accuse the Greek police of increasingly looking the other way when confronted with evidence of violence, and even standing by while the beatings are going on. All of this, the report by Human Rights Watch says, is “in stark contrast to government reassurances.” The report further states that illegal migrants “were routinely discouraged from filing official complaints,” and that “the police told some victims they would have to pay a fee to file a complaint.” In addition, it says, the police told some victims to fight back themselves. “We have hundreds of reports from people who are beaten while policemen were standing there doing nothing,” said Thanassis Kourkoulas, the spokesman for Expel Racism, an immigrant support group. He said officers had been accused of assaulting immigrants in police stations and of giving the telephone number of Golden Dawn to citizens who called with complaints about crime and immigrants. Even a former police union chief, Dimitris Kyriazidis, recently accused police officials of turning “a blind eye to extreme-right groups that are affiliated to Golden Dawn and which are running amok across the country.” A Greek police spokesman, Christos Manouras, strongly denied any official tolerance of attacks on immigrants or any links to or collaboration with Golden Dawn. “It
Re: [Marxism] The "Renegade" Kautsky and his Disciple Lenin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Include me in the "nodding off" group. I had the same response trying to read his book, "Lenin Rediscovered." On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:29 AM, Greg McDonald wrote: "I have only one question. How many times did people catch themselves > nodding off while trying to watch this insufferably boring and > disorganized discourse?" > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Tom Quinn wrote: > > == > > > Here's a link to a video of a talk by Lars Lih on this topic: > > > > http://vimeo.com/6191002 > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/kenmor1968%40gmail.com > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Shane Mage wrote: > I play no numbers game. Then your use of the term extermination is merely for moral effect and has no analytical content. Then every time somebody gets shot in a crime of passion or in a mugging, it's an act of "extermination." The point is, no act of genocide took place during the bombing of Dresden. Dresden was a strategic city and accordingly a target of allied bombing. That civilians died is of course horrible, but its in no way comparable to the Holocaust, neither in terms of numbers nor of intent, unless you want to engage in the obscene intellectual exercise of trying to find a "rational" aim behind the death camps. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Comrade Jeff, Your latest post below states - the imperialists intervention that hasn't even happened? leaving aside the actual financial attacks and political attacks taking place by these imperialists - and their proclamations stating their "rights" to intervene in Syria (which I see as intervention) what do you suggest to support a socialist revolution in Syria and elsewhere? I am not interested in giving support or funds to some Islamic group that wants to cooperate with these imperialist nations and their lackeys and support capitalism. Is there a Syrian socialist group you seek support for? > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:02:17 +0200 > From: meis...@xs4all.nl > Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention > So let's stop talking > about the "imperialist intervention" that hasn't even happened and probably > won't (at least until Assad is on his last leg and they want to influence > which faction then takes power). Let's talk about what we can do to support > revolutions taking place in a number of Arab countries, rather than leaving > intervention to the imperialists so that we'll have something new to protest. > > - Jeff > > > >http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/03/22/liberals-march-to-war/ > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/causecollector%40msn.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 11, 2012, at 1:14 PM, Angelus Novus wrote: the extermination bombings of German cities from Hamburg to Dresden Come on, don't discredit your broader point by adopting this Neo- Nazi phraseology. Credible studies indicate that 25,000 died in Dresden, a far cry from the 500,000 claimed by the Nazis, or the figure of the 202,400 offered by the Holocaust denier David Irving. I play no numbers game. If in one night "only" 25,000 were exterminated is that less monstrous (how many were slaughtered at Srebrenica?)? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were far more monstrous allied war crimes. If numbers are what matters, Tokyo was more monstrous. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Shane Mage wrote: > the extermination bombings of German cities from Hamburg to Dresden Come on, don't discredit your broader point by adopting this Neo-Nazi phraseology. Credible studies indicate that 25,000 died in Dresden, a far cry from the 500,000 claimed by the Nazis, or the figure of the 202,400 offered by the Holocaust denier David Irving. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were far more monstrous allied war crimes. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Question about pre World War I SPD
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Sorry - not answering your question, but you might want to look at these books. (Maybe you have access to a good library?) Gary P. Steenson After Marx, Before Lenin: Marxism and Socialist Working-Class Parties in Europe 1884-1914 Vernon L. Lidtke The Alternative Culture: Socialist Labor in Imperial Germany I haven't read Steenson but I know that chapter 2 is on Germany. Lidtke touches on your question in the chapter "Labor Movement Associations: Growth, Structure, and Composition". However he focuses more on the "free trade associations" and their efforts to unite "arbeiters" around sport and cultural activities. The SPD drew heavily on these essentially "non-political" organizations (underground as it were until the anti-Socialist law was repealed on May 15, 1908, and above ground after) for membership and support. However, though Lidtke refers to the movement of members from the associations to the SPD, he does not appear [maybe it's there - didn't read the entire work] to offer specific membership requirements. I'm going to look for the Steenson book this weekend - if your answer is there I'll let you know off-list. - Bill On 07/10/2012 9:08 PM, Kenneth Morgan wrote: == Have any of you who have researched the history of the German Social Democratic Party,pre World War I, found any guidelines for membership? For example, could someone have been a member by just declaring themselves one, or were their certain norms establised for membership? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 08:17 11-07-12 -0700, Tom Quinn wrote: > >Yeah but, should we become cheerleaders for imperialist intervention >on this basis? Isn't that exactly the approach people like >Christopher Hitchens took on Iraq in 2003? Quite frankly, I'm more >likely to give credence to the outlook of Ron Paul Excuse me, but the outlook of Ron Paul is that he doesn't give a shit about the fate of Syrians or any other Arabs or people of color AS LONG AS they don't bother the United States. And that means he has no problem with the continued brutal rule of Assad or previously of Gaddafi or Saddam Hussein or the onslaught of the Bosnian Serbs. For none of them (George Bush's lies notwithstanding) posed any threat whatsoever to the US, whereas any alternative would be an unknown quantity (as you, Tom Quinn, yourself chimed in with in regards to "Islamic fundamentalism" in a previous post regarding Syria). So Ron Paul -- along with others including antiwar.com which you also point to! -- who you accurately describe as "self avowed right wingers," are perfectly happy to ignore untold suffering be it in Syria, the DRC, Burma anywhere that doesn't border on the US (or involve Al-Qaida since they proved their ability to pilot jumbo jets). And whose opposition (which we all share) to the US aiding Israel has everything to do with antisemitism and nothing to do with the fate of the Palestinians any more than caring for the Syrians. Of course if I wanted to insult your intelligence I could go on to "point out" that Clinton's intervention in Yugoslavia or both Bush's wars against Saddam Hussein also had nothing to do with genuine sympathy for the suffering of those peoples. Please get it through your head that supporters of the Syrian (Libyan, Palestinian) revolution who write on this list did not get their marching orders from any of these liberal (or not so liberal) imperialists, and in most cases were active or vocally opposed to these regimes well before the imperialists undertook (or in the case of Syria, didn't undertake) "humanitarian intervention." The difference is that we didn't feel a burning need to switch sides at the moment the imperialists switched sides (at least verbally). So let's stop talking about the "imperialist intervention" that hasn't even happened and probably won't (at least until Assad is on his last leg and they want to influence which faction then takes power). Let's talk about what we can do to support revolutions taking place in a number of Arab countries, rather than leaving intervention to the imperialists so that we'll have something new to protest. - Jeff >http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/03/22/liberals-march-to-war/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 11, 2012, at 11:17 AM, Tom Quinn wrote: Yeah but, should we become cheerleaders for imperialist intervention...absent some huge moral imperative of the kind that existed in World War 2. If Tom Quinn is looking for a "moral imperative" like that for imperialist intervention in the second Imperialist World War he will find it much more easily in Syria, Libya, or even Iraq. The Rooseveltian/Churchillian/Stalinian war policy was nothing short of genocidal, both actively (the extermination bombings of German cities from Hamburg to Dresden, the Tokyo firestorm raid, Hiroshima, Nagasaki) and complicitly (the Unconditional Surrender doctrine designed to prevent any overthrow of the Hitler genocidal regime by the Wehrmacht High Command, the sustained refusal to bomb the railroad lines to the death camps, the refusal to admit refugee war victims to their countries, the murderous ethnic cleansing of Volksdeutsch from eastern and central Europe)--all in addition to the "normal" purpose of frustrating the aims of their rivals and of preserving and then getting control over the colonial domains of the "Allies." If the devil invites you to supper, better to refuse than just to bring a long spoon. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Rent and the falling rate of profit
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Anthony wrote: > In reply to passing John, of course the falling rate of profit is at the > heart of the historic crisis of capitalism Actually, a lot of recent research into Marx's unpublished manuscripts that are finally seeing the light of day as part of the MEGA project seem to indicate that Marx actually abandoned the "law of the tendential fall in the rate of profit", or at least developed grave doubts about it. I don't want to go into too much detail, because none of the research is mine and an article by Michael Heinrich will be published soon in English dealing with this in much greater detail, but not only is the formula for the rate of profit as presented in Engels' edition of Volume III just not mathematically sound, but Marx appears to have developed severe doubts about the "law" in numerous later manuscripts. Of course, just because Marx says something doesn't mean it's true, but since so much Marxist crisis theory seems to be oriented to the "law", I think eventually Marx scholars will have to start taking a lot of the findings of the MEGA project into account. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Now wasn't Lou just asking contributors to these discussions to avoid "one-liners" that don't really say anything, (especially in this case where it was in reply to a legitimate request for clarification by Clay's post) like this one: At 12:55 10-07-12 -0700, Tom Quinn wrote: > >Sure, if you think the US should be the world's cop. Here's what >Phil Ochs had to say about that. And then on the other hand, my last post provoked a reply from John Obrien which was anything but short and snappy, but rather surprisingly was addressed "Comrade Jeff," (even though it was sent to the entire list) and then went to "patiently explain" to me that imperialism is NOT a true friend to the oppressed of the earth, like I was fuckin born yesterday! I'm not pissed at everyone on this list but I am disappointed that a lot of the serious posts and articles pointed to (such as Binh's article that this thread was supposedly addressing) aren't even discussed on their merits but only in terms of whether the author is a "counterrevolutionary" and retains the right to be called "comrade." Why should I or anyone contribute content for "discussion" if all that comes out of it is this sort of name-calling or condescending explanations of the evils of imperialism?? I'm going to wind up by wasting a little bandwidth and republish the THOUGHTFUL post written by Ken Hiebert (but under a different subject heading so some might have missed it), as he hasn't been identified as being on one or another pole of this discussion, but at least he's thinking and actually contributing some content (which I guess is enough to insure that his post doesn't receive attention or generate a respectful reply). - Jeff At 08:02 10-07-12 -0700, Ken Hiebert wrote: This is also a response to North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention. I am not overly concerned with what label people wish to put on Pham Binh. He is quite capable of speaking in his own defence. But there may be a bigger question behind this. if we label PB "counter-revlutionary" because of his stance on Libya, what do we say about the large number of Libyans who welcomed the imperialist intervention? I know how some people have answered this question. Just google Nato Rats and you'll see what I am talking about. It is easy to write off whole populations because of disagreements with them. Let me start a list. Tibetans Kurds Eastern Europeans Citizens of Leningrad who voted to return to the name St. Petersburg. People in China who erected the Goddess of Democracy. To me it looks suspiciously like the Statue of Liberty. Each time we write off another population, we are more alone in the world. (I am using "we" to mean the left in general and not necessarily anyone on this list.) We still have the task of trying to connect with them. I don't think we are self-important if we believe we might have some political insights that may help them. This does not require us to hide our disagreements with them, but it means we have to look for some common ground from which to start a discussion. For example, Iraq, 2003. It quickly became apparent that many Iraqis were not opposed to the imperialist intervention. This was not because they had illusions as to what the imperialists wanted. Many of them we simply happy to see Saddam Hussein gone. Sections of the left who were "soft" on Hussein had little basis to connect with Iraqis. Those sections of the left that made clear their opposition to Hussein had a starting point to connect with Iraqis. This was not unrealistic. In Vancouver we were in touch with Iraqis and so at one remove we were in touch with people in Iraq. As I say, we do not have to agree with them. In fact, based on the experience since 2003, we can argue that we were right to oppose imperialist intervention. Iraq is so damaged by the imperialist intervention that the "Arab Spring" has by-passed Iraq. We can be reminded that we small. (And mocked because of that as well.) But we are not entirely on the sidelines. Because he was careful how he addressed the Libyan opposition, Gilbert Achcar has had some possibility of connecting with the Syrian opposition. Last fall he was able to address a meeting of oppositionists in Sweden and made a case against calling for imperialist intervention. Of, course that was last October and the situation is very fluid. By comparison, there is no indication of any connection between insurgent Syrians and the Cuban Communist Party or the PSUV led by Hugo Chavez. Based on their public pronouncements, it is hard to believe that they care at all about connecting with Libyans or with Syrians beyond the ruling circles. The closing of the Venezuelan embassy i
Re: [Marxism] Marx Question
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Write it, Michael, while, hopefully a talmudian finds a citation On Jul 11, 2012, at 7:27 AM, michael perelman wrote: > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Where I can find a marxian formulation on the contradiction between > finance capital and industria capital in terms of both process of > capital circulation and institutionalized power bloc within the > bourgeoisie? > > > -- > Michael Perelman > Economics Department > California State University > Chico, CA > 95929 > > 530 898 5321 > fax 530 898 5901 > http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/pegdobbins%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah but, should we become cheerleaders for imperialist intervention on this basis? Isn't that exactly the approach people like Christopher Hitchens took on Iraq in 2003? Quite frankly, I'm more likely to give credence to the outlook of Ron Paul than that of liberal interventionists as I think we have no business injecting American military power into "foreign faction fights" absent some huge moral imperative of the kind that existed in World War 2. Here's a take on this from 2011 regarding Libya, "Liberals March to War". Sad when self avowed right wingers are to the "left" of certain liberals and ostensible marxists. Then again, we are on the eve of the centennial of the infamous imperialist "Great War" in which liberals and social democrats did yeoman work in justifying which in the US involved covering for one of the biggest liberal frauds in history: Woodrow Wilson. In Germany this involved in part casting the war as one of liberation of the Russians from the feudal yoke of Tsarism which Marxist historiographical rhetoric was helpful in justifying. http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/03/22/liberals-march-to-war/ On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Jeff wrote: > > I think Pham Binh's article really hit the nail on the head in relation to > the utter failure of most of the left to do what the left used to be known > for: supporting popular revolution. If anything, he has understated the > danger of leftists becoming -- but only in actual situations, mind you!! -- > an impediment to revolutions which they are not themselves leading. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Communiqué on the meeting of the Central Committee of the Syrian Communist Party
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is a year old, being from June '11. Is the CP still backing Assad? On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Ken Hiebert wrote: > http://wikileaks.org/syria-files/docs/456398_communique-on-the-meeting-of-the-centralcommittee-of-the.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Coles: the bell TOLLS for thee
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is a report and an attempt at analysis of a strike in Ausralia by workers at a major supermarket distribution centre. http://enpassant.com.au/2012/07/11/coles-the-bell-tolls-for-thee/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Rent and the falling rate of profit
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Anthony says: In reply to passing John, of course the falling rate of profit is at the heart of the historic crisis of capitalism, but... Relative surplus value has been used to offset the falling rate of profit in various ways, and The falling rate of profit in production has sent capital in search of other ways to extract surplus value, the most important of which are rents which cycle through various forms of fictitious capital. The most important of those forms are those related to the extraction of land rents, and they are at the heart of the financial crisis. This is what the bursting real estate bubbles is all about. I am glad your French is good enough to have a go at a play on words on my name. Makes a change from what i normally get Andrew. Maybe I missed something. How is land rent at the heart of the financial crisis? You might have to explain that en passant for someone like me. I don't see that as explaining the real estate bubble, necessarily. But that might reflect my own slowness, or to continue the French pun, my pedestrian approach. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] On Haitian TV, Masses Laugh at Other Half
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == NY Times July 10, 2012 On Haitian TV, Masses Laugh at Other Half By ALESSANDRA STANLEY PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti — Two and a half years after the earthquake that devastated Haiti, life here can still be a struggle. “I couldn’t even get my mom a decent Mother’s Day gift,” Soraya said, pouting. “Finally, I used my measly allowance and bought her a ticket to Paris. It’s nothing special, but I figure it’s the thought that counts.” Soraya isn’t a real Haitian, at least not exactly. She’s a character played by a 26-year-old actress named Belinda Paul in a sketch-comedy television show called “Regards Croisés.” Soraya is a caricature of a certain kind of privileged, bubbleheaded daughter of the Haitian elite — a Zuzu. Zuzu girls are conspicuous in places like Miami and Paris, but they are hard to see in the hills of Port-au-Prince, where they shop, go to the gym and party behind high walls topped with bougainvillea and concertina wire. Zuzu-speak, an affected whine of Creole, French and “omigod” English, is deliciously recognizable to the less fortunate masses, and every Saturday night Haitian viewers roar, clap and rock with laughter at Soraya’s airs. “Regards Croisés,” which translates roughly as “Viewpoints,” has been on the air a little more than a year and is a runaway hit with middle- and working-class Haitians who live, as people in the capital put it, “down the hill.” The show’s improvised skits, which feature all-too-familiar character types — the ill-trained schoolteacher, the mercurial embassy consul — gently send up Haitian daily life, particularly the class divides and crushing hardships that make so many Haitians desperate to get out. Haiti is a poor, aid-dependent country rich in political instability, corruption and disaster. People here have a deep craving for comic relief. “Regards Croisés” is one of the few things that provide it; in a spare television landscape dominated by Mexican telenovelas dubbed into French, and Creole rap videos, the show makes Haitians laugh at their misfortunes and themselves. The success of “Regards Croisés” is a little unlikely — it’s a comedy show in a nation full of tragedy — and that says something about Haitian resilience. The limit of its popularity says just as much, though, about the rigidity of Haitian society, the inflexibility of the country’s class boundaries. This low-budget program remains largely unknown or disregarded by Haiti’s tiny French- and English-speaking upper class; it is equally overlooked by the humanitarian agencies that devote time, money and expertise to communicating with the local population. It’s a phantom hit. Foreign aid workers and executives of Haiti’s many commercial TV channels complain that Haitians need meaningful shows made in Haiti for Haitians. Just out of their line of sight, on state-owned TV no less, one is already on the air. In one improv skit, Sophia Baudin plays Consul Sophia, an imperious American Embassy official who finds wildly arbitrary reasons to deny Haitians visas, like bad hair. Flanked by two burly security guards, Consul Sophia torments applicants with their own answers. A meek, educated woman says she owns her own house but can’t remember how much she paid for it. “If you can’t remember how much you paid for your house, how will you remember that I issued you a visa?” Consul Sophia thunders. She shakes her head in disgust and calls for the next case. All comers are rejected until a good-looking, light-skinned man shows up. Consul Sophia loves his shirt, his stylish glasses and courtly manners. “I don’t need to see your papers,” she coos. She gives him a come-hither look and a five-year visa. Like her “Regards Croisés” co-stars, Ms. Baudin gets recognized on the street, but strangers sometimes confuse her with her skit character. “People will shout out, ‘That’s the woman who denied me a visa,’ ” she said with a smile. “A lot of people really hate me.” Consul Sophia has turned the Creole words for “not qualified,” “pa kalifye,” into a comic catchphrase. It resonates most for those in line for visas outside the United States Embassy, where pharmacists, nurses, janitors and farmers wait for interviews that include a DNA test to verify if they are truly related to those they claim as family in the United States. “It is humiliating,” Jessie Paulemon, 36, a social worker, said in line one morning while waiting for her name to be called. “I know a lot of successful people who have been rejected several times, and there’s no criteria, they just tell you you’re ‘not qualified.’ ” “Regards Croisés” is broadcast around 9 p.m. on Saturdays on the state-owned channel, Télévision Nationale d’Haïti. It doesn’t have commerci
Re: [Marxism] The end of China's economic miracle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == it never stops to end since 1978, as we can easily see from their growth rates (this year, for instance, presumably only 7%...) v http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/07/08/the-end-of-china-s-economic-miracle.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Communiqué on the meeting of the Central Committee of the Syrian Communist Party
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://wikileaks.org/syria-files/docs/456398_communique-on-the-meeting-of-the-centralcommittee-of-the.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Learning from Trotsky
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://anticapitalists.org/2012/07/11/1399/ Learning from Trotsky Pham Binh | July 11, 2012 | 0 Comments Pham Binh asks whether the understanding of the relationship between ‘programmatic clarity’ and party building is responsible for the tendency of the Trotskyist movement to split and fracture Andy Yorke’s response to my article “Trotskyism” contains so many misrepresentations of what I wrote it is hard to know where to begin a reply. This is the second time Workers Power have mischaracterized my stance on party-building questions. The odd thing is that this second response by Andy Yorke is actually a confirmation of my central arguments about Trotskyism’s endemic problems. (clip) Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Social Class and the Southern Civil Rights Movement
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://lander.academia.edu/DanielHarrison/Papers/1671686/SOCIAL_CLASS_AND_THE_SOUTHERN_CIVIL_RIGHTS_MOVEMENT Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Scott McLemee reviews Christopher Hayes book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2012/07/11/review-christopher-hayes-twilight-elites-america-after-meritocracy Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Marx Question
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Where I can find a marxian formulation on the contradiction between finance capital and industria capital in terms of both process of capital circulation and institutionalized power bloc within the bourgeoisie? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 530 898 5321 fax 530 898 5901 http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Gravity, the Higgs boson and the law of the TRPF
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/gravity-the-higgs-boson-and-the-law-of-the-trpf/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The "Renegade" Kautsky and his Disciple Lenin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I have only one question. How many times did people catch themselves nodding off while trying to watch this insufferably boring and disorganized discourse? On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Tom Quinn wrote: > == > Here's a link to a video of a talk by Lars Lih on this topic: > > http://vimeo.com/6191002 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
