Re: [Marxism] The Anti-Imperialism of Fools and the Syrian Spring
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == For those of you who believe that revolution by US military intervention is the wave of the future, and you're of military age and in good health, your only option is quite clear. To avoid being accused of hypocrisy, you need to enlist in the US military. Unless you qualify as a pilot, most of the action will be with the ground forces, so for you, that will mean either the Army or Marines. Below see links for recruiting information for both services. It appears US millitary intervention in Syria won't happen until late January. If you enlist by mid August this will give you time to complete both Basic and Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) training. Who knows, if you get lucky, after Syria, Iran. If any of you so affected have any questions about Army Basic Training, please feel free to contact me off list. Please pass on to Pham Binh. Hooorah! http://www.goarmy.com/ www.marines.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://socialistworker.org/2012/07/16/siding-with-the-empire Above link to Socialist Worker article Eli was referring to: On 7/17/2012 2:36 PM, Eli Stephens wrote: In a recent article, the ISO distinguished their position from the pro-intervention arguments of Binh __**__ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.**utah.eduMarxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.** utah.edu/mailman/options/**marxism/kenmor1968%40gmail.comhttp://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/kenmor1968%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] North Star Shows the Way..........
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Apparantly Louis and Jeff are of the opinion that no one has the right to criticize any opinions of Pham Binh. Considering that a significant portions of Binh's political activity is iniating and engaging in a holy war to the death with the ISO, the Socialist Worker article, was rather restrained. Despite Jeff's constant refrain of direct quote, direct quote, most of us who have read Binh's article interpret it as a call for US military intervention in Syria. Is this a mistake on our part? If so, please explain. Humanitarian intervention was the excuse Bill Clinton gave for bombing civilian targets in Serbia, in 1999, and for the weekly bombings of Iraq during his administration. Proponents of the 2003 invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq, claimed humanitarian motives. This is a veiw shared by Aaron Glantz in his book How the US Lost Iraq, in which Glantz all but calls on the U.S. to go forth to assume the white man's burden. Then we have Clay Claiborne, who weighs in. Judging by the URL of his blog Clay is associated with the cruise missle liberals and Bill Clinton suck asses at the Daily Kos. Ad Hominen attack on my part? I don't care. Clinton's crimes against the working class the poor, and humanity in general are too numerous to list here. On the Daily Kos site one can be expelled simply for criticizing Bill Clinton from the left. When Daily Kos was involved with NetRoots nation, their honored guest was he who is totally lacking in honor, Bill Clinton. The DailyKos is to Marxism, what military music is to music. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Brits as Victims....what a load of crap!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The British maintained an effective blockade against Germany during World War I that resulted in a shortage of food and other basic supplies to the German civilian population. After the Armistice of November 1918, the blockade was NOT dismantled. It continued in place until the end of the Versailles Conference, June 1919. Several historians have suggested this resulted in tens of thousands of deaths after the last shot was fired. The continuation of this blockade after the Armistice, directed toward non combatants, was not only a criminal act, but also one of cowardice. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Renegade Kautsky and his Disciple Lenin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Include me in the nodding off group. I had the same response trying to read his book, Lenin Rediscovered. On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:29 AM, Greg McDonald gregm...@gmail.com wrote: I have only one question. How many times did people catch themselves nodding off while trying to watch this insufferably boring and disorganized discourse? On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Tom Quinn tomc...@gmail.com wrote: == Here's a link to a video of a talk by Lars Lih on this topic: http://vimeo.com/6191002 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/kenmor1968%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] North Star shows the way to Imperialist Intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Prior to the Japanese attack on US military bases in Hawaii, the majority of the people in the US opposed US entry into World War II. Earlier in 1941, the extension of military conscription, first passed in 1940, barely passed Congress. If memory serves me, by a 12 vote margin. The rationale for war by the Roosevelt administration had more to do with perceived national interests, than any moral crusade. Like Tom, many of my family members including my father, were World War II vets. Listening to their stories is what motivated my enlistment in the Army during the Vietnam war. Sometimes I'm wrong. Tom Quinn wrote: Shane is expressing the traditional Trotskyist view of World War 2, shared only by them and a few right wing libertarians, that there really wasn't any material difference between the allies and the axis and that guys like Roosevelt and Hitler were really moral equivalents and thus the Second World War should have been opposed as in essence a replay of the World War 1. I have never agreed with that view and I would concede that that is in part conditioned by my upbringing in this country in a family of proud World War 2 veterans. Nonetheless, the SWPers and libertarians like Lawrence Dennis were entitled to their views, which they courageously clung to even in the face of criminal prosecution, and in the case of Cannon and the SWPers, imprisonment. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Question about pre World War I SPD
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I remember reading a biography of Bismarck, that he suggested to the new Kaiser Wilhelm II, that the Geman government should crack down on the Left. Wilhelm rejected the idea, explaining I have no wish to begin my reign with a civil war. This would indicate that the German Left was a force to be reckoned with, as early as 1888. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] World War II and Fascism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The opposition of the ruling classes in the UK and the US, to Germany had nothing to do with Fascism. The German led Nazi government was opposed because of it's expanionist policies. Had the Nazi leadership been content with Germany's 1938 boundaries, Roosevelt, Chamberlain and Churchill could have cared less about the Nazis domestic policies. Churchill was an open admirer of Benito Mussolini. During a break during the 1938 Munich conferece, Chamberlain congragulated Hitler for being an obstacle to Bolshevism. If these stalwarts of democracy were so anti Fascist, where were they during the Spanish Civil War, 1936-1939? This is no reflection on the individuals who served in the armed forces and the merchant marine of the allied side. Among their number there were indeed conscious anti Fascists. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] World War II and Fascism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It wasn't until the German invasion of Poland in September 1939, that the UK and France banally declared war on Germany. It wasn't until December 8, one day after the Japanese attacks on US forces in Hawaii and the Phillipines that the US banally declared war on Japan. It wasn't until December 11, 1941, after the December 8, declaration of war by Germany Italy, that the US banally declared war on Germany and Italy. The US, UK and France had no problems with German and Italian forces banally supporting Franco during the Spanish Civil War, while banally declaring an arms embargo against the Spanish republic. At the same time US oil companies banally sold oil to Franco on credit, no less. Hells bells, I'm all banaled out. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Question about pre World War I SPD
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Have any of you who have researched the history of the German Social Democratic Party,pre World War I, found any guidelines for membership? For example, could someone have been a member by just declaring themselves one, or were their certain norms establised for membership? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Socialism 2012
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://socialistworker.org/2012/07/04/hearing-the-voices-of-the-struggle Dan Lane, a leader of the 1990's Illinois War Zone labor battles, described the many threads woven together throughout the weekend: Again, the ISO has put together another successful summer conference, featuring panels about the major things the capitalist boss tries to shove down our throats. Also discussed were issues like murder-by-cop in the Black community and fightback strategies to challenge the greed of Wall Street and corporate boardrooms with an awareness of all the struggles of our brothers and sisters, whether they are red, brown, black, yellow or white. In conclusion, there is an alternative to the 1 percent answer of capitalism...socialism. It's based on the idea that the poorest worker that will be elevated by all workers, creating a just and equal society. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] The Reactionary Politics of Grace Lee Boggs
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jul2012/bogg-j02.shtml After seeing Grace Lee Boggs on Democracy Now I'm not surprised be her views reflected in the article at the above link. On Democracy Now, April 14, this year, she diminished the role of collective action, with we must all change how we treat each other, and dismissed the decline of Detroit with, what's so great about cities. As she's making these outlandish comments, another guest on the show, Thomas Frank, author of What's the matter with Kansas, is sitting there nodding like a bobble head doll. The host of the show, Amy Goodman, offered no rebuttal. Best not to get me started on Amy Goodman. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Socialism 2012
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I wasn't able to attend the Socialism Conference 2012, held in Rosemont, IL June 28-July 1. The figure I heard most for attendance was 1500. Attendance at the evening panel which included a representative of the Internationalist Workers Left (DEA), from Greece, was over 1,000. Video and audio recordings from the conference will be available at www.wearemany.org https://www.facebook.com/update_security_info.php?wizard=1#!/photo.php?fbid=10151061248584066set=a.188956619065.154281.20615044065type=1theater Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Socialism 2012
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Guy Miller guycar...@msn.com wrote: I was cut short on the speakers' list, but wanted to point out that if the workers' run Basque alternative were a real threat to capitalism, it could expect not only drones, like a sixteen year old in Yemen, but B-52s. Drivel. Good analysis to possible US response to workers collectives. I'm going to use that in the future Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] People's World: Occupy's 89%? Where anarchism shuns unionists, it allies with the ultra-right
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Several months ago, someone posted either an article or statement by the Young Communist League, youth arm of the CP, that the Occupy Movement, should be a re elect Obama electoral movement. In light of that, this article by the Communist Party, would be consistent with that strategy. Is the Occupy movement dead or just somnolent? I don't know. My fear is Occupy may have been, or hopefully is, our last chance to stop the bi partisan drive toward pre New Deal laissez faire economics. On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 6:04 AM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think what used to be the CP has much coherence left. I suspect, though, that's it's orientation to Occupy would not differ substantially from the MoveOn people and others who see anarchists as a rival of the partisan Democrats . . . rival minority perspectives that would rather drive everybody else out and away from Occupy in order to have hegemony over what it does. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/kenmor1968%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Pasok agrees to coalition government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18515185 I can't remember who, but last Sunday, someone on this list predicted that within 2 or 3 days, PASOK, who claimed they wouldn't join a coalition government without Syrizia, would indeed do so. Good call. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Barry Sheppard on Wisconsin recall defeat
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Any fight back movement in the US is going to have to be independent of the union leadership. They didn't get involved in the Occupy Movement, until it got underway, and then the motive of the union leaders was to co opt Occupy into the Democratic Party. As much as I hate to say this, I'm not sure unions in the US are going to play that much of a role in organizing any movement for social and economic justice. On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think the entire recall campaign was a diversion to get the movement on the reservation. The Democrats sucker punched the AFL-CIO leadership into it. That leadership had been addled on such questions after generations of abuse from that quarter anyway. The people in the streets were so flattered by having the organized labor movement out and by their sides that every iota of skepticism seemed to have gone by the board. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/kenmor1968%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Partido ex SWP
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm having trouble finding the Partido (ex-SWP) page. The number of Partido sites on FB are legion. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Why is PASOK and similars called socialist?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Damn good question. I would add why is the French Socialist Party called Socialist or the Labor Party in the UK called a labor party? Michael Parenti, while being interviewed on KPFA radio in Berkeley, after the results for the 2000 presidential elections were announced, referred to the Democratic Party as a social democratic party. The late Michael Harrington considered the Democratic Party as a labor party. Reminds me of the lyrics of an old folk song, it's a strange, strange world we live in. On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Dear People, I cannot find the reason. A party, to be called socialist, should at least have the SYRIZA's program. Isn't that like calling the US's Democrats as socialists? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/kenmor1968%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Barry Sheppard on Wisconsin recall defeat
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It's true that the unions were very much involved with the union drives of the 1930's and often overlooked, 1940's. On the other hand, movements such as the Civil Rights movement and the anti-Vietnam war movement were organized independent of the unions. Some unions did get involved after the movements became significant. At first individual union members such as E.D. Nixon of the Sleeping Car Porters Union during the Montgomery Bus Boycott, then later the leadership of some unions. As an aside I think E.D. Nixon has never received the full credit he deserves. Had the organizers of these movements waited for labor to get involved, well, they might have had a long wait. Same thing for the fight for economic justice. The Occupy movement, with whatever faults, was and hopefully is a positive development. Yes unions will have a role, but unfortunately after others have organized a fight back. On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Ken Hiebert knhieb...@shaw.ca wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Certainly the existing leadership won't organize a fightback. But the existing unions will have a role, if past experience is any guide. Looking at the big struggles of the 30's, typically the existing unions provided the framework for union organizing drives. ken h Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/kenmor1968%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Leftists, Wisconsin and OWS
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 5:14 PM, audrada...@aol.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The following exchange took place between Pham Binh and myself on the listserv of the Occupy Wall Street Labor Outreach Committee Pham Binh I was told there was no push by socialists for a general strike in Wisconsin. No one set a date, came up with aplan of action (everyone use one sick day on day XX), issued a slogan (a day without union workers, for example), or created an all-embracing, inclusive popular body (like a General Assembly) that could make something like that happen. Are we going to blame Democratic politicians and union leaders for that? Contrast Wisconsin to Occupy Oakland's general strike call for Nov. 2. When are we going to get it through our heads that calling for things and putting forward the correct line isn't going to do a damn thing in the real world? The Dem. politicians were able to derail the occupation only because the left failed to do its job. We had the chance to lead, didn't, and got a failed recall when someone else decided to seize the initiative. From the Book of Genesis: And it came to pass, on the 6th day, God did createth the keyboard so Pham Binh could criticize. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/kenmor1968%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Hollywood Leftists?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/339678/20120510/italy-depp-johnny-communist-manifesto-newspaper.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Question re Solidarity
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It's been my understanding that Solidarity is not a vanguardist organization and is multi tendency in the sense that tendencies are allowed. For example there was and maybe still is within Solidarity a tendency that identified with the United Secretariat Fourth International. Has Solidarity now banned tendencies? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Question re Solidarity
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis wrote: Solidarity has not banned tendencies but it is a stretch to call it multi-tendency So if Solidarity isn't multi tendency, it's because no other internal tendencies have been formed as opposed to being banned? I've been informed that Solidarity allows dual membership with the Socialist Party. If true, Solidarity can hardly be accused of being organizationally rigid. I'm somewhat confused as to why Socialists, who are anti-vanguardist aren't in Solidarity or the Socialist Party. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Comment from a Young Marxist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == (This appeared under Pham Binh's Liquidating Lies.) And then when a mass movement does come alone (OWS) they sit on the sidelines criticizing it for not meeting their ideal, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they largely refuse to work with it. Not true. Most of the left groups I'm familiar with are working with OWS, and do so with other movements. Sounds to me the sideline critic is young Marxist. They also have no web presence Once again, wrong. The only thing to be said about Pham Binh's latest article is, go on home folks, nothing to see here. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Which country is Obama running for reelection?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/scandalous-new-campaign-video-obama-takes-israel-pandering-dangerous-levels Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Ron Paul Supporters and the Occupy Movement
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Are there any here who feel that Obama is a lesser evil? That's a straw man argument. Opposing Ron Paul does NOT mean support for Obama. It's irresponsible to even suggest that. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Les Miserables meets Occupy
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2UppIdlTyQ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Iraq in retrospect
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis Proyect wrote: In fact the antiwar movement went into a steep decline after the armed struggle began. The reasons for this are far too complex to go into here, but the use of IED's by scattered, decentralized guerrillas who never put forward a program for national emancipation has a lot to do with it. However, my main point in writing this article was to caution the left against picking good guys from afar on the basis of where they stand in relationship to American military powerhttp://www.marxmail.org/msg98863.html#. Both the Shias and the Sunnis found it useful at one point or another to collaborate with imperialism. To gain national emancipation, you have to put forward a class-based program I could have sworn that all of the different resistance groups did agree on one thing: US out of Iraq. So then Louis your position was that since the US ousted the Sunnis then the war and occupation were a good thing? Yes the anti war movement went into decline, but opposition to the US occupation in Iraq did increase. Every patriotic Americans worst nightmare is an opponent who can fight back. Had there been a peaceful occupation, there would have been very little resistance on the part of the US public. So basically what you're arguing is that only pure and pristine resistance movements have a right to exist? The only legitimate resistance for the Iraqis was an internet discussion list? Kinda difficult without electricity. I suspect this article is an excuse for ISO bashing, 6 years after events. At the risk of over stating the obvious, had there been no US war or occupation, there would have been no resistance.. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Clarification my previous post re Iraq
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I've been contacted off list that my comments after the A. Roy quote gives the impression that I'm criticizing Roy. NOT at all. I'm defending her statement and sharing her criticism of those who Disagree that the Iraqis had a right to resist US occupation. Once again the Roy quote and my comments are directed against those who oppose the right of an occupied people to resist. I AGREE with Roy's statement. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Rocky Anderson Presidential Run
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == To those of you in Utah, any idea why Anderson is forming a new party rather than running as a Green? Just curious. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] White Voting and the Republican Party
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Tristan raised the question about white Southerners and the Civil War. This has been a question that has perplexed many. I had thought that the white Southern ruling class, in it's propaganda ignored the question of slavery, and used patriotism as a ralllying cry, sort of like the US in both Gulf Wars. You can't very well get troops motivated by admitting oil and other economic issues are the cause for going to war. Like Tristan I am also an expatriated white southerner. While all my relatives, except for a few live in Georgia, I was actually born in Charleston, SC. For the benefit of some of you smartasses, no, I did NOT witness the attack on Ft. Sumpter! In her book, What this Cruel War is Over Chandra Manning takes up this question. Manning makes a good argument, that slavery was very much the issue, to poor Southern whites, as well as to the planter aristocracy. To put it in crude terms, the existence of slaves kept poor whites from being on the bottom of the social order. This was certainly a contributing factor to many whites in the south supporting Jim Crow laws that discriminated against Blacks. When I emailed her to discuss her book, she said that she was surprised, that the best response she got was from white southerners over 50! Interesting. When the cops attacked a picket line of Longshore workers at the Port of Charleston, SC, January, 2000, they had planned on dividing the workers based on race. The clerks local is mostly white, while the longshore local is mostly black. Much to the surpise of the cops, they found white and black workers fighting back against the cop attack. This is the only instance I know of in my lifetime, where black and white workers, in the south, fought the cops. The ensuing defense campaign for the 5 longshoremen, the Charleston 5, involved unity between white and black workers in the south. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] White Voting and the Republican Party
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark Lause wrote: Realizing that South Carolina is a kind of special case, this strikes me as a reflection of what one of the liberals was arguing to me the other day, that America's just a reactionary, right-wing country because the people are reactionary and right-wing. It just isn't, for all the muddleheadedness and easy distractions. *Response*: It's not just South Carolina is a special case, but the South, or at least the states of the former Confederacy fall in that category. White Southerners simply did not respond to the events of secession and war the same way. And they have responded to later events with still less unanimity. And still less are white Southerners some kind of surrogate stand-in for the white population in the U.S. (no, not even the males.) *Response:* The majority of white Southerners did support secession and the war, at least until late 1864. The lowest figures I've seen for total number enrolled in Confederate Army is 900,000, or 15% of total white population. this stands in contrast to 12% of total US population in military in World War II. No white Southerners are not some sort of surrogate stand-in for the white population... During the civil rights movement, the majority of white Southerners, were indeed oppossed to desegregation. There is a difference between the South and the rest of the country. The so called rocky mountain states, with the possible exception of Montana, may be as conservative as the South. All of these oft-repeated generalizations ignore the fact that, notwithstanding the hickup of 2008, the participation in elections of those qualified to vote has been declining since World War II. And those who are voting are doing so with less and less enthusiasm for the options. *Response*: For what it's worth, exit polls during the 2008 elections claim the majority of white Southerners under 30 voted for Obama. This is in a region where the Republicans routinely get 75-80% of the total white vote. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Van Jones and OWS
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/11/van-jones-and-democratic-party-operatives-you-do-not-represent-the-occupy-movement/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Michael Moore and OWS
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/where-does-occupy-wall-street-go-here While I understand it's impossible to cover all issues in 10 points, this program seems weak on the issues of unemployment, and economic deprivation. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Occupy Oakland calls for west coast port shutdown, December 12
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://occupywallst.org/article/occupy-oakland-calls-total-west-coast-port-shutdow/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] SF Bay Area Occupy Movement and Robert Reich
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What in the hell is going on with the adualation of former Clinton Secretary of Labor Robert Reich, among activists in the Bay Area occupy movement? Has there been an epidemic of collective amnesia? Last I heard Reich is still unapologetic about his support of NAFTA and the outsourcing of jobs. In a recent book, Super Capitalism he states that a decent standary of living is to be restricted to Physicists, Engineers, and one assumes former Cabinet officers, implying the rest of us should find joy in our poverty. If he's rejected his many past bad positions, fine. If so he needs to state this. His one saving grace was that at one time he supported union recognition by card check, a position he no longer holds. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Hedge's Marx Bashing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark L wrote:Chris Hedges is an admirably honest social critic, but has anyone here actually looked to him for historical or political guidance? No, Hedges doesn't deserve a pass on this one. He needs to stick wth being an admirably honest social critic, and stay the hell away from political and historical analysis! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] RE Regional Fall ISO Marxism Conferences
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Did you ever hear the story about the SWP selling a pamphlet back in the 1930s that had a little slip of paper in the inside front cover correcting something written on page 50 or so? The New Yorker Magazine Talk of the Town referred to the pamphlet with an observation to this effect: and these are the people who are going to take over the world? Actually, I remember it as a book, during the early 1970's, where the author's name was omitted. This was corrected, by typing the authors name on a slip of paper, that was included in every copy of the book. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Open Letter to Oakland Mayor Quan from a leader of Veterans for Peace
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/julie-thi-underhill/letter-from-dan-shea-to-oakland-mayor-jean-quan/10150369424249604 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Occupy Portland
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/10/occupy_portland.html Estimates of crowd size 4,000-5,000. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Occupy Wall Street Crowd 5,000
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Afraid that last picture, showing a very massive crowd, on the page is fake-Tristan Thanks for the heads up on the fake photo, which doesn't do much for that particular blogger's credibility. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Occupy Wall Street Crowd 5,000
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/09/30/huge-crowd-5000-occupywallstreet-protests-wave-union-support-arrives-73461/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Pham Binh Report on Wall St Protests
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The revolution in Egypt began as a mass march against police brutality (an every day occurrence that activists have been protesting and organizing against for many years). The revolution in Libya began as a march against crummy housing. Actions in both countries were rooted in deeply held grievances and the most pressing needs of the population and began with clear-cut political demands and issues that the people rally behind. The only specific demand I could make out was to occupy Wall Street, which doesn't really meet anyone's pressing needs, economic or political. We could learn a lot by how the Egyptians organized and built their protests. I don't know the exact manner how this was done, but I do know how it WASN't done. The Egyptians organizers didn't sit around, impotently lamenting, we can't do anything until the working class in it's entirety begins to move. On the contrary they built a movement, small at first that the working class could relate to, first as individual workers, and then winning over the labor movement. With the exception of union organizing drives, the organized as well as unorganized sectors of the working class relate to already existing movements, such as the civil rights movement and the anti Vietnam War movement rather than initiating such movements. We can't do anything until the working class in it's entirety begins to move, or our only task is to rebuild the labor movement, are excuses for abstention from struggles, which assumes we have an unlimited time to organize a fightback. On the contrary. I predict that unless their is a fightback to protect workers rights in the next few years, that by the US national elections, November, 2016, unemployment insurance, social security, and all union rights will be historic relics. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] California Dems Decertify Progressive Caucus
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The Progressive Caucus of the California Democratic Party (CDP) has been threatened with decertification by the CDP. The reason is that the caucus passed a resolution calling for an exploration of ways to push President Obama in a progressive direction, including the possibility of a primary challenge-=UPDATE: looks like decert has happened according to link below-KM http://www.merge-left.org/2011/08/16/ca-democratic-party-decertifies-the-progressive-caucus/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Democracy DP Style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == In the last couple of days I was expelled from 2 liberal discussion sites, Democratic Underground and Daily Kos for making comments critical of Bill Clinton, Barack Obama and the Dems. Is this par for the course for these types of discussion lists? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Daily Kos Leftist?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == A couple of years ago I was enraged to hear of Bill Clinton, not only being invited to an event called Net Nation but even applauded. Just recently I heard that Net Nation was sponsored by the supposedly leftist website Daily Kos. Is this true? I understand that most people who consider themselves on the left still have some illusions in the Democrats. Fine. However there is a big difference in inviting liberal Dems such as Dennis Kucinich or Barbara Lee, as oppossed to Bill Clinton. What's going on at Daily Kos? My main motivation in posting the Keith Olbermann critique of the so called debt bill, was not only his criticism of Obama, but more importantly his call to action. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] A ‘Roundtable’ on Obama: What Was He Thinking?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Cory Robin comes across as an Obama apologist. He's not convinced by Greenwald's argument? Greenwald makes a good case. What more evidence does he need? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Keith Olberman: Into the streets
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://current.com/shows/countdown/videos/special-comment-the-four-great-hypocrisies-of-the-debt-deal Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] International Workers Day
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBAQyCojqGofeature=fvsr In the video, the demonstration in front of Powell's bookstore, was the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU) meeting in Portland, OR, convening in front of Powells to support the organizing drive of ILWU local 5. The organizing campaign was successful. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Right wing offensive intensifies
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I heard that 3 states are cutting unemployment benefits from 26 back to 20 weeks. I recieved an email from one of the union Pac's that the US house of Representatives is voting on whether to count non voters as no votes in union representation elections in the Railways and Airlines. I thought this was already the case, but if not now, apparantly soon to be. Forward to the 19th century! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
