Re: [Marxism] These People Are Still Being Held by Armed Separatists in Ukraine | VICE News
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On May 4, 2014, at 11:25 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: So how does a People's Republic justify abducting people? I don't remember Marx writing about this in "Class Struggles in France". But in fact Marx did write about the Commune abducting people (including the Archbishop of Paris) and executing them. He even criticized the Commune for this--that is, for *not* executing them until the very end! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] BBC News - The curious survival of the US Communist Party
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On May 2, 2014, at 7:10 PM, sha...@aol.com wrote: Hazarding a guess, I would think Hugh De Lacy, Leo Isacson and Vito Marcantonio. Bur not really sure about Marcantonio. I don't know about De Lacy, but Isacson and Marcantonio were not Democrats. They were elected on the ALP (American Labor Party) ticket. Three Democratic congressmen were secretly Communist Party members. Does anyone know who they were? Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Lawrence & Wishart: despicable bourgeois profiteers
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well said, Joaquin! On Apr 26, 2014, at 6:36 AM, Joaquín Bustelo wrote: On 4/25/2014 8:56 PM, michael yates wrote: "Can comrades explain to me what is so outrageous about the publisher's defense of its actions?" Sure. Lawrence and Wishart have just proved themselves to be opportunist bourgeois profiteers pimping of the workers movement by denying people access to works from a century and a half ago so they can extort money from, in the last analysis, college students or taxpayers. Michael Yates hints that he might be OK with it because they co- published some book about a strike a hundred years ago. Oh! I almost forgot. Eleanor Marx was involved. In the strike, not the book, but --perhaps-- that makes L&W A-OK. Unbelievable. Maybe Michael Yates should post to a Tea Party list, where bourgeois property has more respect, instead of this one, where I hope bourgeois "intellectual property" doesn't have quite the same standing. Information wants to be free, especially if it can help working people understand the nature of the system so we can smash it. David Walters and the MIA have NO CHOICE but to respect this bourgeois "intellectual property," or the MIA would be shut down. So I totally understand and support them in their stance of respecting bourgeois "intellectual property," including making nice-sounding diplomatic noises about copyrights, the DMCA, and so on. But the rest of us are not under those constraints. People should download the material to be censored and share it as widely as possible, especially through torrents, which are a very efficient means of distribution, and through "darknet" sites, though that is quite a bit more complicated. * * * I'm not just being ornery or ultraleft. This is the right policy, the right response, to a bourgeois publisher who PRETENDS to be an ally to the socialist movement, but instead seeks to EXPLOIT working people when the opportunity arises. The argument is that the translations are "new," even if the works are old, and copyright fees are just because the people who made these new translations have to be paid royalties is 1,000% bogus. Find me the translator who says they're getting royalties from sales of Marx and Engels translations and I'll show you a liar. Or any translator of ANY work. Apart from Gregory Rabassa, the translator of Gabo's One Hundred Years of Solitude, and one or two others, any translator who claims he or she has received one cent from royalties AFTER the initial fee is lying. I've been translating "professionally" (i.e., for money) for more than four decades, and Rabassa is the only one of our tribe that I've ever met who got post-publication royalties. And as someone who has been and continues to be a "content creator," I totally support writers, actors, and everyone else like that who is involved in actually creating "works of authorship" getting paid. But PUBLISHERS (whether known by that name or others, like Hollywood studios, record labels, TV networks, web sites, content aggregators, or whatever), are parasites. They are the ENEMIES of content creators (authors, translators, editors, film makers, etc.). In the real world, the monopoly that copyright law grants benefits THEM much much more than it does US, and is even a weapon used against us. The media monopoly mafia use their hoards of "copyrights" to tell us we either sell to them cheap, or we won't sell at all. They have tons of content that they already own and they don't needs ours. And because they own the distribution channels, the threat is quite credible. In practice, this works out to the overwhelming majority of content creators being forced to work under conditions where their EMPLOYER, a corporation, is the "author," and the actual creative human beings have no rights, none whatsoever, under copyright law. This corporate monopoly has been based on the capitalist's control of the means of producing and reproducing works and distributing them. What gave rise to this sort of copyright law is the printing press. You need to be a capitalist to have one. We journalists know that "freedom of the press belongs to those that own one," but the same is true of copyright. Copyright belongs to the capitalists, to the bourgeoisie. Digital technology and especially the Internet has given regular people --us-- tools to begin shattering that monopoly. David Walters and his friends in the MIA deserve credit for using those tools to give untold millions of people access to something that belongs to everyone. Now, some will say that a publisher, even in this day and age, needs to recoup their investment in these "new" tr
Re: [Marxism] Venezuela: ‘Can a country have a revolutionary state and a capitalist economy?’-- Interview with Steve Ellner | Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:08 PM, glparramatta wrote: Poulantzas, Althusser go Caracas Venezuela: ‘Can a country have a revolutionary state and a capitalist economy?’-- Interview with Steve Ellner "the argument that the state under capitalism enjoys a status of relative autonomy vis-à-vis the capitalist class, particularly in the realm of economic policy." This nonsensical (essentially Stalinist) argument simply hypostasizes "the state." But the state is composed of people--hired armed people and commanders who dictate their use of those weapons. And from what class of people are those directors drawn, if not from those who make up the ruling class through their hereditary ownership and control of social property plus a few from lower origins who have won admittance through service? Where do the generals, judges, police commissioners and legislators come from? The Marxist concept of state and revolution requires destruction of the capitalist state--which means that those people are dismissed from their functions and replaced by people drawn from and democratically controlled by the organizations of the working people. Since no ruling class is ever homogeneous the "state" incorporates those internal antagonisms and resolves them through "normal" or violent (as in the German or Russian blood purges, the Chinese 'Cultural Revolution" and current "anti-corruption" campaigns, or political assassinations like that of JFK) processes. This is not "autonomy" in any sense. And when the group of people making up the state apparatus is seriously disrupted by social processes (as in the topical Venezuelan example) and a new group of directors installed from within a military apparatus plus "qualified experts," unless the state has been destroyed in the Marxian sense outlined above those people (as also in Cuba) inevitably restabilize the state with themselves now installed as themselves leaders of the (sometimes called "new") ruling class. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] MH370 kept hidden at top-secret US military base - media reports - News - World - The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current e
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Apr 21, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_31/MH370-kept-hidden-at-top-secret-US-military-base-media-reports-8550/ Hey, I figured that out the moment it was revealed that the plane had turned and headed west. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Apr 16, 2014, at 3:21 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Robert Parry's article...reprises all the stuff about the Right Sector and Svoboda that we have only heard 3000 times before. At least when Parry writes nonsense, he at least makes an effort to compose his thoughts. So tell us, O Unrepentant One, what did Parry say about Ukrainian Nationalists like Pravy Sektor and Svoboda that you found to be "nonsense?" Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The Jewish people have centuries of experience with pogrom-steeped Ukrainian Nationalism, than which there is no Nationalism more loathsome. http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/16/ukraine-through-the-us-looking-glass/ "The acting president of the coup regime in Kiev announces that he is ordering an “anti-terrorist” operation against pro-Russian protesters in eastern Ukraine, while his national security chief says he has dispatched right-wing ultranationalist fighters who spearheaded the Feb. 22 coup that ousted elected President Viktor Yanukovych. On Tuesday, Andriy Parubiy, head of the Ukrainian National Security Council, went on Twitter to declare, “Reserve unit of National Guard formed #Maidan Self-defense volunteers was sent to the front line this morning.” Parubiy was referring to the neo-Nazi militias that provided the organized muscle that overthrew Yanukovych, forcing him to flee for his life. Some of these militias have since been incorporated into security forces as “National Guard.” Parubiy himself is a well-known neo-Nazi, who founded the Social- National Party of Ukraine in 1991... Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Who Goes to Jail? Matt Taibbi on American Injustice Gap from Wall Street to Main Street | Democracy Now!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Apr 16, 2014, at 11:13 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: MATT TAIBBI: ...Fast-forward again to the next big crisis...it wiped out 40 percent of the world’s wealth... What unspeakable bullshit! This guy thinks that the market value of "financial instruments" (what Marx called "fictitious capital") constitutes "the world's wealth!" So now that the market value of that fictitious capital is back around where it was in 2008, he presumably is thankful to Obama, Bernanke, Draghi & Co. for having so brilliantly increased the "world's wealth" by two-thirds in a mere five years. What would it take to make such a type realize that the world's wealth is wiped out even faster during prosperity (through uninhibited resource extraction and environmental degradation) than during a crisis that inhibits economic "growth?" Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Journal of Musicological Research (Volume 30, Issue 1, 2011)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Apr 4, 2014, at 5:31 PM, Craig Butosi wrote: Comrades, Would someone who is able kindly provide me with the full-text to the following citation? Please respond off-list. That "Prague Congress" took place in the immediate aftermath of two events: The "Prague Coup" that established a totalitarian Stalinist dictatorship over the Czechs and Slovaks; and the Zhdanovchina, the Stalinist witch-hunt that began with ludicrous denunciations of the only three great Soviet composers--Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and Khachaturian--before going on to become a veritable pogrom against Jewish cultural figures like Mikhoels. Western musical figures like Bush merited everlasting contempt--like that merited by their Nazi German counterpart Parteigenoss Von Karajan--for their participation in such a totalitarian travesty! Shane Mage > This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it > always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, > kindling in measures and going out in measures." > > Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dugin Tells Separatists in Ukraine What to Do Next | The Interpreter
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:53 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: The only interesting item in this is the following: Pavel Gubarev who has been detained by the Ukrainian security services for his separatist activities. which reveals that in the oh-so-not-fascist Ukraine of today "separatism,"--the advocacy of or organization for national self- determination by a minority nationality like the Scots, Basques, Catalans, Corsicans, Tibetans, Uighurs, Chechens, Papuans, or Puertoricans--is a crime. A political crime, a thought crime. As in so many other Popular Democracies! Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] query re A. Roy
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 27, 2014, at 4:01 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote: And this one, which says it all so succinctly: http://kafila.org/2010/03/22/response-to-arundhati-roy-jairus-banaji/ "...the vision of the Communist Manifesto is reversed. There Marx brings the Communists in not to prevent the expansion of capitalism but to fight it from the standpoint of a more advanced mode of production..." So the expansion of capitalism in 2014 has no significant differences from the expansion of capitalism in 1847? And today we should "fight capitalism" but not its expansion? So unthinkingly you write off the whole environmental defense movement as luddite, and the struggle against Naruda in which she plays such an important role (and all similar struggles) as nothing but a primitive-communist delusion! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] query re A. Roy
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:45 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote: Fortunately I found soon after the piece below, on global south Maoism more generally, which is a welcome emotional and political antidote to Roy A "piece" whose factual value is excellently portrayed in this statement: "MAOISTS ARE back in the news. In Nepal, after many years of guerrilla war, they are now the ruling party of government. They won an overwhelming majority of the popular vote in 2008" This sectarian "authority" misrepresents an election in which the CPN- M gained a plurality of votes but were so far short of an "overwhelming majority" that they were totally unable to secure passage of any important legislation, let alone carry out their promise of enacting a democratic constitution. As a result, today Nepal still has no constitution (it is a de facto, not de jure, republic) and the Maoists no longer are even in the government, having given up their powerless "ruling" position at the head of the government! Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] No, Ukraine is not being run by fascists - The Week
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 14, 2014, at 10:05 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: When we Marxists talk about fascism, it is in terms of a dynamic that is unfolding in capitalist society when parliamentary democracy has exhausted itself and the ruling class throws its weight behind violent groups whose ideology is a mixture of super-nationalism and themes lifted from the socialist movement. Mussolini, for example, was a socialist deputy at one time. His "corporatism" was a distorted version of leftist concepts but robbed of the idea of class conflict. "We Marxists" shouldn't use the word "fascist" in that way. Those who do so have a great deal to repent for, because they are trying to use a word in a self-unique (literally idiotic) way that has no reference at all to that word's usage in general--including Marxist--discourse. It is to live in a world that has not existed for some 75 years now-- and even then the word fascism had already acquired its modern meaning either as applying to every rightist (leaving open the question whether the Stalin/Mao regime and their successors were/are properly termed fascist--Trotsky already had written that Stalinism and Fascism were "symmetrical phenomena") dictatorial regime in which oppositional political activity is ruthlessly suppressed, people have no rights as worker or citizen, and the police apparatus can kill, disappear, and torture with impunity; or as an all-purpose insult for one's political adversaries. If there was, in 1939 (before Aug. 25, anyway), a self- described Marxist anywhere in the world who didn't consider Franco Spain to be a "Fascist" regime, I for one have never heard of that moron. How can a Marxist see any qualitative difference between the Franco and Pinochet regimes? Or, for that matter, the current regime in Egypt or the regime under which the Tibetan people have suffered for the past 55 years? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Information on the Far-Right in Ukraine.
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 13, 2014, at 3:16 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Zoltán Grossman...says: "Some elements of the Tea Party--such as Glenn Beck and Rand Paul--do seem to straddle conservative and fascist ideologies." Really? How neglectful of me not to have noticed such characters using socialist rhetoric in a demagogic fashion. Must be slipping in my old age. Don't know nuthin bout Glen Beck (reputedly a stupid comedian). But I've seen a lot about Dr. Paul and his rhetorical denunciations of NSA spying and US militarism and the drug wars, and as a fetish-free socialist rhetorician I wouldn't orate about them very differently. So his rhetoric sometimes qualifies as socialist. But is it demagogic (and therefore fascist), or an honest expression of his (right) libertarian heritage? Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 12, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 3/12/14 4:31 PM, Shane Mage wrote: Q: How many Nazis were ministers in the German government before they burnt down the Reichstag? A: One I see that Shane is back into his one-line analyses of complex political phenomena. Must have gotten tired of smearing Syrians. Now it is the Ukrainians who get slimed. How is it the "Syrians" who are "slimed" when one mentions who makes up their armed vanguard? How is it the "Ukranians" who are "slimed" when one mentions who makes up their armed vanguard? Are the "Russians" "slimed" when one mentions that their ruling class is still led a clique of gangsters from the Stalinist secret police? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 12, 2014, at 3:15 PM, DW wrote: Yes, and four ministries. To Clay, it seems, Svoboda can't be mentioned or you are a shill for the Russians. The Parliament is part of the "The Revolution". The one that has legally banned the opposition parties. Interesting. Maybe not rump, but far from democratic. Q: How many Nazis were ministers in the German government before they burnt down the Reichstag? A: One Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 12, 2014, at 8:17 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: On 3/12/14 5:15 AM, Richard Fidler wrote: Excellent, informative article: http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/948.php. Well, this is just a crock of shit from Mandel: "The heroes of the western provinces collaborated with the German occupation and participated in its crimes; the heroes of the east and south fought fascism and for the Soviet Union." What evidence is there of the OUN being regarded as "heroes"? I cited a poll conducted by social scientists that found that only 8 percent of Ukrainians regarded the OUN as the fighting force worthy of support during WWII. Well, what is a "hero?" If that refers to the armed, courageous, and self-sacrificing vanguard--well, all the unblind now recognize Pravy Sektor as that vanguard. If that refers to political figures in the lineage of the politically aware population, who in the "western provinces" has that stature? I've not heard of any (AUW and their Makhno fetish notwithstanding) except Bandera? Have you? You cited some poll by "social scientists," but you denounce citing the real poll in the most recent elections, in which Svoboda got 13 percent nationally out of the "western provinces" that make up less than half the voters--thus more than a quarter of the vote in those areas--as a "crock of shit." The only such crock visible being the one from which you seem constantly to be grasping turds to sling at anyone who disagrees with you. Shane Mage "L'après-vie, c'est une auberge espagnole. L'on n'y trouve que ce qu'on a apporté." Bardo Thodol Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marxism versus conspiracism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 9, 2014, at 3:59 PM, Jeff wrote: The Reichstag fire in 1933 was set by Marinus van der Lubbe, an independent left-communist who traveled from Holland to Berlin in the hopes of taking action against the rise of the Nazis...The Nazis used the incident to crack down on some Stalinist leaders... How quickly the supporters of a united front with fascists in Ukraine and Syria morph into open apologists for Hitler and Göring! Shane Mage "L'après-vie, c'est une auberge espagnole. L'on n'y trouve que ce qu'on a apporté." Bardo Thodol Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Xpress Reviews: Graphic Novels | First Look at New Books, February 28, 2014
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:39 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: http://reviews.libraryjournal.com/2014/02/books/graphic-novels/xpress-reviews-graphic-novels-first-look-at-new-books-february-28-2014/ Bohemians: A Graphic Anthology. Verso. Apr. 2014. 207p. ed. by Paul Buhle & David Berger. ISBN 9781781682616. pap. $16.95; ebk. ISBN 9781781682623. bohemian022814 Xpress Reviews Buhle begins with an introduction that distinguishes the denizens of a particular Eastern European district from the colloquial use of Bohemian as a term for artistic, social, and political rebels. Nobody ever thought that the term "Bohemian" had any reference to the nation now known as the Czech Republic (which, by the way is in Central, not Eastern, Europe). It explicitly referred to the Gypsies (now preferably called Roma or Romany) whose lifestyle was in the 19th century thought of as the very image of Freedom. "L'amour est enfant de Boheme; il n'a jamais, jamais, connu de loi" (Carmen, Act I) Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Observations on Credit and Surveillance — Antebellum Red-Baiting: When Slaveholders Accused Northerners of Fomenting Communism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Feb 7, 2014, at 12:37 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: \ http://mattstoller.tumblr.com/post/75618961543/antebellum-red-baiting-when-slaveholders-accused \ See also Richard Hofstedter's chapter on Calhoun, "The Marx of the Master Class." Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Frankenpolitics: The Left defence of GMOs,
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jan 8, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Jeff wrote: Natural cross-breeding introduces nothing into the make-up of an edible plant or animal that hasn't been proven edible over thousands of millennia of practice. Wrong. Of course there are many poisonous plants! "Edible" means edible *to humans*, "practice" means human activity. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Angry Arab" or CIA operative?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Dec 29, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: This Kuwati press functionary in its "Washington Bureau" wants to unmask the "Angry Arab." But he is someone who can perpetrate a howler like "If you are a US citizen, working for the government, including the CIA, is an honorable task. Indeed, Americans are required to recite the pledge of allegiance, and this entails doing whatever it takes to defend the homeland." Someone who can write a sentence like that is obviously someone whose assertions, without independent documentation, should not be given any credence whatsoever. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Castro on WWII
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Dec 21, 2013, at 11:26 PM, Ken Hiebert wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://cubainsidetheworld.wordpress.com/2013/12/20/mandela-is-dead-why-hide-the-truth-about-apartheid/ "The Second World War broke out when, on September 1, 1939, the Nazi- Fascism invaded Poland and fell like a thunderbolt on the heroic people of the USSR, which contributed 27 million lives to preserve humanity from that brutal massacre that took end the lives of over 50 million people." It certainly seems to me that Castro has telescoped the Nazi invasion of Poland with the invasion of the Soviet Union which did not happen until June of 1941. I understand that Castro is a revered figure in Cuba. But still, it seems that an editor should have caught this and corrected it. It's just his ongoing whitewash of Stalinism, his way of hiding (from himself as well?) Stalin's open complicity and participation in the invasion of Poland; his murder of the irreconcilable anti-Nazi communists like Bukharin, Preobrazhensky, Rakovsky, and Trotsky; his decimation of the Red Army command and incompetent preparation for the ultimate German invasion; and the brutal massacre known as the "Great Purge" whose toll was exceeded only by that of the war itself! This sentence is, to put it as charitably as posxsible, senile. Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Yves Smith savages Krugman (gently) on TPP
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Is Krugman Running on Brand Fumes? (TransPacific Partnership Edition) http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/12/krugman-running-brand-fumes-transpacific-partnership-edition.html "It may seem a bit de trop to take on a Paul Krugman blog posts yet again, but the reason for focusing on his post yesterday on the TransPacific Partnership is less for its substance and more as a political zeitgeist indicator. The distressing part about the role Krugman has chosen to play is that he too often throws his good name behind dubious Team Dem initiatives and orthodox economic thinking. Lesser figures, as in mere working journalists and commentators who advance various interests among the political and policy elites (think Ezra Klein or Andrew Ross Sorkin) take care to have enough substantive, independent-looking work so as to lend credence to their defenses of an increasingly corrupt status quo. Krugman, of course, as a Nobel prize winner, operates in a completely different league. His credibility rests on his economics chops. He can thus rely on his established brand more heavily than lesser figures. But even for someone like Krugman, there are limits on how far your authority will take you... Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] SYRIA: Who are Assad’s fascist supporters? | Tahrir-ICN
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Dec 11, 2013, at 4:56 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: anti-semitism (they believe Assad’s regime acts as resistance to Israel). They may be wrong that Assad's regime, any more than his Islamist opponents, acts as resistance to Israel. But to call that error "anti- semitism" marks the authors as Zionist stooges. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Special Page at Monthly Review: Exchange with M. Heinrich on Crisis Theory
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Dec 1, 2013, at 4:00 AM, Angelus Novus wrote: Heinrich's critics, and his answers to his critics. http://monthlyreview.org/features/exchange-with-heinrich-on-crisis-theory My reply to Heinrich's answer: "Shane Mage follows a different strategy to maintain the LTRPF: he simply changes the formula for the profit rate. While Marx considers s/ (c+v) as profit rate, Mage argues that v becomes smaller and smaller and therefore he simply drops it. Mathematically a little bit adventurous, but let us follow his considerations. Instead of the Marxian profit rate s/(c+v) we consider now the “Mage rate of profit” s/c." --- Heinrich begins with a formula [s/c+v)] not to be found in Marx (he originally had called it "implicit") demonstrating his total indifference to the distinction between stocks and flows, between fixed and circulating capital, as if he had not bothered to read my extensive discussion of precisely this and my careful use of upper and lower case symbols to distinguish one from the other. s [=v(s')] is clearly a flow variable, but what about his "c" and his "v?" It is obviously (except to Heinrich?) meaningless to add a stock to a flow. So are they both to be taken as flows? If so we have "v" representing the flow of wages over the course of the year and "c" representing the flow of capital consumption. But the rate of profit--for Marx, for every economist, and for every capitalist--constitutes the return on investment, the ratio between the realized mass of surplus value produced during the year and the average value of the stock of social capital during that year. And that average value of the social capital is a much larger quantity than the amount of capital consumed (and thus to be replaced) during the year. So, if "c" and "s" are both flow variables Heinrich's "Marxian" profit rate s/(c+v) has nothing to do with the profit rate that in Marx's Law falls tendentially. At most it represents a debased form of the *profit margin" (percentage of sale price constituting profit, aka "return on sales") which is calculated by every business as "s/(c+v+s)" Are both, then, to be taken as stocks? We then have p'=s/C+V. But this is just as irrelevant to the Marxian rate of profit's tendency to fall because "V" (the average value of the stock of consumer-goods inventories destined for consumption by productive laborers) has nothing to do with the rate of exploitation, which is the ratio between two flows (surplus value appropriated and variable capital expended, or the unpaid and paid portions of the average working day). Heinrich goes on to demonstrate that he misses what is essential in Marx's conception of the composition of capital: --- "As organic composition Mage does not use the fraction c/v but the fraction c/(v+s), abbreviated by Q. With s′ for the rate of surplus value s/v, Mage now can write for his profit rate s/c = s′ / Q(1+s′) With this formula Mage wants to refute my demonstration that in Marx’s profit rate formula one finds the rate of surplus value in the numerator and the value composition in the denominator and that there is no necessity in any claim as to which one will grow faster. With his new formula Mage states triumphantly that now the rate of surplus value appears “in both the numerator and the denominator”, but constant capital appears only in the denominator. Seemingly Mage has the idea when s′ appears in numerator and denominator this compensates each other to a certain degree and therefore the effect of growing c prevails. However, that s′ appears in the denominator is a kind of illusion. For Q = c/(v+s) we can also write Q = c / v(1+s′) (Mage himself mentions [why does he say "mentions" when I *insist* on} this expression). When we insert this last expression for Q in the “Mage profit rate” we receive p'=s/c = s′ / [c/v(1+s′)] (1+s′) and we can see that s′ appears not only one time in the denominator, it appears two times. And since these two instances cancel each other totally, the two terms (1+s′) in the denominator of Mage’s profit rate can simply be shortened and we receive: s/c = s′/(c/v)" --- Which, of course, simplifies right back
Re: [Marxism] Semour Hersh and Richard Sale’s senior moments | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Dec 9, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: Perhaps betraying senior moments, long-time reporters Seymour “Sy” Hersh (76) and Richard Sale (74) have penned articles of the sort that were rampant in the weeks following Barack Obama’s threats to do something about Bashar al-Assad’s August 21 sarin gas attack on East Ghouta. Despite the consensus among the “anti-imperialist” left was that Obama intended to attack Syria as a prelude to attacking Iran, after the fashion of Hitler using Poland as a launching pad for invading the USSR... Hitler invaded Poland with the full support and cooperation of the USSR and full awareness that the invasion was *casus belli* for Britain and France. It was indeed a launching pad, but for the invasion of Western Europe, not Western Asia. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Special Page at Monthly Review (My reply to Heinrich) Part I
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Dec 2, 2013, at 4:40 PM, shaun may wrote: Not wishing to appear pedantic here but merely hoping to dispel any possible confusion. Shane's formula for the organic composition of capital (which, of course, is a value relation; a value composition) is given as C/(s +v) at the bottom of part 1. I make no claims whatsoever for being better versed in Volume 3 than Shane. However, my formula for the organic composition of capital would be C/v. s (surplus value) is not, as I have read Volume 3, part of this value relation. C/v is consistent with volumes 1 and 2 of Capital. C represents the stock of constant capital (fixed capital plus the inventories of circulating constant capital) v+s [v(1+s')] represents the total labor-time expended by the productive workers, consisting of the value of the real wages plus the surplus value (the two by definition summing to the total of hours of productive labor. The formula C/v is what Marx calls the "value composition" of capital. But he specifies that this is equivalent to Organic composition (the ratio between the value accumulated as "dead labor" and the value ["living labor"] created in the full time worked by the productive workers) only insofar as it reflects "technical composition" (which increases steadily over time). Moreover, the value composition can only be held to represent the organic composition if the value of the real wage is constant (ie., there is absolutely no relative surplus value) because "v" represents only the *paid*, but not the unpaid, labor hours. Of course, I always reserve the right to be wrong and to be educated by my fellow communists. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: [CubaNews] JR/Juana Carrasco Martin: JFK and the Lost Keys
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == JUVENTUD REBELDE JFK and the Lost Keys Juana Carrasco Martín • ju...@juventudrebelde.cu November 21, 2013 22:11:02 CDT Fifty years and the truth is still kept under seven locks. Who killed John F. Kennedy? Elementary: the bullets fired in Dallas on November 22, 1963 sealed a coup d’état where the CIA and the extreme right of the American political and economic power had shaken hands to use as executioners Italian-American mobsters and anti-Cuban terrorists from Miami. Lee Harvey Oswald? A tale of fiction, without science, that even most of the very naive stopped believing long time ago. The unfortunate scapegoat manufactured in an attempt to link Cuba to the assassination, and to have a new pretext to act against the island of strength and dignity; a campaign of rumors and misinformation that was linked to the CIA and retold in a recent book by the former intelligence agency officer, Brian Latell. Cuba was was not the only focal point. There was also an ongoing war against Vietnam whose escalation was of interest to the military industrial complex; there was an agreement to start nuclear disarmament that would put aside the danger hanging over humankind that almost had fatal consequences during the Missile Crisis in October, 1962. The wide conspiracy spun a web of false leads, censored documents, and convenient deaths of witnesses or participants in the events of the assassination or the fruitless investigations... But if there has never been a certain conclusion, and the U.S. citizens were paralyzed by the media, politicians and authorities who were not interested in getting to the truth, doubt persists: 61 percent of Americans are convinced that Oswald did not act alone... Perhaps the assassination of JFK is one of the events that produced more literature in history; and I do not mean the hundreds of thousands of articles written in virtually every country on this planet. I'm talking about books -reaching an estimated figure of over 2000- large volumes ready to prove this or that theory. After five decades of mystery, new research comes to light, like that by Italian journalist Claudio Accogli presented in his book Kennedy deve morire (Kennedy must die ); or that by James W. Douglas described in JFK and The Unspeakable. Why He died and Why It Matters; or the views expressed by David Talbot in The Conspiracy (whose original title is Brothers) who explained in a recent interview: "The plot against JFK was orchestrated by experts, and had all the features of a sophisticated intelligence operation . As soon as Robert [Kennedy, U.S. Attorney General] learned of the death of his brother, he knew he was facing a powerful enemy. And he knew he could not trust the security agencies who had betrayed his brother: the CIA, the FBI or the Secret Service ...” By chance, assassinating a U.S. President was not a federal crime in 1963; it was only declared so in 1965. But hiding the truth of this story is still valid in the imperial country and it is unlikely that, in 2017, they will open the locks that protect the story that is contained in the more than 1100 files related to the assassination; a story that belongs to the American people and the world. Also 50 years ago –on November 23, 1963– Fidel, in an analytical speech on the terrible event, enlightened the world and called on Americans to find out who had –and why– acted in such "a macabre plan to conduct a policy of war and aggression, to put the U.S. government in the hands of the most aggressive circles of monopoly, militarism and the worst government agencies in the United States. It is in our own interest, in the interest of all peoples and the people of the United States to demand this." The call has not been answered; the wound that bled the President, 18,250 days ago, has not yet closed; many questions remain unanswered. JUVENTUD REBELBE JFK y las llaves perdidas http://www.juventudrebelde.cu/opinion/2013-11-21/jfk-y-las-llaves-perdidas/ Juana Carrasco Martín • ju...@juventudrebelde.cu 21 de Noviembre del 2013 22:11:02 CDT Cincuenta años y la verdad sigue guardada bajo siete candados. ¿Quién mató a John F. Kennedy? Elemental, las balas disparadas en Dallas el 22 de noviembre de 1963 sellaron un golpe de Estado donde estrecharon sus manos la CIA y la extrema derecha del poder político- económico estadounidense para utilizar como sicarios a mafiosos italo-estadounidenses y terroristas anticubanos de Miami. ¿Lee Harvey Oswald? Un cuento de ficción, sin ciencia, en el que prácticamente hace mucho que los ingenuos dejaron de creer. El infeliz chivo expiatorio buscado y fabricado para el intento de vin
Re: [Marxism] [lbo-talk] Pope Francis today denounced conservative icons Pat Buchanan and Sarah Palin,
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is such an obvious Onion On Nov 18, 2013, at 8:44 AM, c b wrote: CB: Long Live the South American Revolution ! "VATICAN CITY – Pope Francis today denounced conservative icons Pat Buchanan and Sarah Palin, calling their recent objections to his leadership style “confusing,” “hypocritical” and “borderline-heresy.” The pontiff—who was elected to lead the Roman Catholic Church in March—complained that Buchanan and Palin should “look into their own hearts” before questioning his actions, and suggested that they are “simply jealous, having repeatedly failed to be elected to high office themselves.” - See more at: http://www.newslo.com/pope/#sthash.UmbtaZlm.dpuf ___ http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [Pen-l] Price Fossil Fuels Out of the Market--economic common sense from China!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == (Note: this is reposted from the NYT op-ed page) On Nov 16, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Shane Mage wrote: Zhao Zhong, a former nuclear engineer at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, is the China program coordinator at Pacific Environment, an environmental group. I agree that we should move away from our dependence on greenhouse gas-emitting fossil fuels at a faster pace and find replacements for our energy needs at magnitudes much greater than current expectations. Championing one technology, though, is a distraction. There’s little to be gained in engaging folks in a “solar versus nuclear” battle. The single most important thing we must do is place a high price, or a strict cap, on carbon emissions to make fossil fuel energy less attractive when compared to other energy sources. We are at the beginning stages of capping coal in China but much more needs to be done. If we price coal and other fossil fuels to capture their true costs, it will immediately make all the alternatives to fossil fuels more competitive and drive innovations in the clean energy sector. In China there is huge room for growth in energy efficiency, solar and wind. Nuclear might have a role too, but I predict that it will be more limited than what these climate scientists were suggesting in their recent appeal. Nuclear has problems. To many of us in China and nearby regions, the Fukushima accident was a huge wake-up call on the dangers of nuclear power. First it set off a panic about food safety as millions rushed to grocery stores to buy salt, which helps to prevent illnesses associated with radiation. But more important, we realized that nuclear power creates serious environmental justice burdens: nearby communities face hugely disproportionate risks from a nuclear catastrophe. Nuclear energy itself is also not as low carbon as people think when you factor in true lifecycle costs, including mining uranium. I’d rather see our society focus on new technologies and policy incentives that promote the many safer, truly clean forms of energy. But it all starts with pricing fossil fuels out of the market. That’s the first step and the most important one. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Price Fossil Fuels Out of the Market--economic common sense from China!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Zhao Zhong, a former nuclear engineer at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, is the China program coordinator at Pacific Environment, an environmental group. I agree that we should move away from our dependence on greenhouse gas- emitting fossil fuels at a faster pace and find replacements for our energy needs at magnitudes much greater than current expectations. Championing one technology, though, is a distraction. There’s little to be gained in engaging folks in a “solar versus nuclear” battle. The single most important thing we must do is place a high price, or a strict cap, on carbon emissions to make fossil fuel energy less attractive when compared to other energy sources. We are at the beginning stages of capping coal in China but much more needs to be done. If we price coal and other fossil fuels to capture their true costs, it will immediately make all the alternatives to fossil fuels more competitive and drive innovations in the clean energy sector. In China there is huge room for growth in energy efficiency, solar and wind. Nuclear might have a role too, but I predict that it will be more limited than what these climate scientists were suggesting in their recent appeal. Nuclear has problems. To many of us in China and nearby regions, the Fukushima accident was a huge wake-up call on the dangers of nuclear power. First it set off a panic about food safety as millions rushed to grocery stores to buy salt, which helps to prevent illnesses associated with radiation. But more important, we realized that nuclear power creates serious environmental justice burdens: nearby communities face hugely disproportionate risks from a nuclear catastrophe. Nuclear energy itself is also not as low carbon as people think when you factor in true lifecycle costs, including mining uranium. I’d rather see our society focus on new technologies and policy incentives that promote the many safer, truly clean forms of energy. But it all starts with pricing fossil fuels out of the market. That’s the first step and the most important one. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sawant Campaign Optimistic Of Eventual Victory!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Nov 10, 2013, at 4:36 PM, Mark Lause wrote: I'm trying to figure out what a member of the Seattle City Council would have to do with Syria anyway. For a claim that the electoral results had national significance, the campaigns had to focus prominently on national issues--which, of course, they did. But War and Peace is always and only a national issue. And during the campaign Obama proposed a Congressional resolution giving himself the powers of a Bush to attack one side in the Syrian civil war. In that context a *Socialist* campaign for any office, however humble, had a very great deal to do with "Syria." What should our opinion have been of a "socialist" party that in the 1936 election refused to include in its platform a denunciation of Roosevelt's embargo against the Spanish Republic because "what does a member of a City Council have to do with Spain, anyway?" Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sawant Campaign Optimistic Of Eventual Victory!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Nov 10, 2013, at 3:18 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: In terms of the politics, such as they are, nobody including me has ever "demanded" military support for the FSA. Demands can be put negatively or positively. The steady stream of denunciations of Obama for not providing [enough] support for the Syrian insurgency (there is no FSA, at least not in the sense of an organization with a structured leadership capable of negotiating an end to the horrible civil war and expelling the fascist elements from its ranks) is in every political sense a demand that he at least facilitate provision of that military support by his allies in the neighborhood. The only demand I would consider putting on the CIA is to get the fuck off the borders with Syria so that Libyan MANPAD's can get through QED Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sawant Campaign Optimistic Of Eventual Victory!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Nov 10, 2013, at 1:39 PM, Alan Stewart wrote: Sawant Campaign Optimistic Of Eventual Victory! Election Victories for Socialist Alternative - Huge Opportunities for Working-Class Politics Must be Seized http://www.votesawant.org/election_victories_for_sa Two Socialist Alternative candidates sent historic shock waves through the United States left last night. Both candidates, Kshama Sawant in Seattle and Ty Moore in Minneapolis, mounted the strongest election campaigns by open socialists in a major U.S. city in many decades. From those results, I strongly suspect that these campaigns did *not* include the demand for military support to the Syrian insurgency! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Your latest piece was pretty sectarian also...
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Nov 6, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: I've never met a General I liked, except for Giap of course. Giap was already Ho's military commander in 1945 when the Vietnamese Trotskyists were slaughtered by the Vietnamese Stalinists in order to bring the British military (as placeholder for the French) unresisted into Saigon. What's not to like? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "American Death Spiral in the Middle East"
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Nov 6, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Bob Dreyfuss: American Death Spiral in the Middle East http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/11/bob-dreyfuss-american-death-spiral-in-the-middle-east.html For over a year we have been hearing from Shane about how Obama was so into supporting jihadists. And now he isn't. Why? Obviously I never ever said that Obama was "so into supporting jihadists." The (undeniable except by the blind) reality, to which I repeatedly called attention, was that Obama was explicitly calling for the overthrow of the Syrian regime through an armed insurgency whose most militarily crucial units, whose vanguard, was (and is) made up of nazi-type Islamists bolstered by thousands of foreign Jihadist fascists imported into Syria with the active connivance of Obama's Sunni allies in Turkey and the Gulf (plus the militant political support of the Zionists). "And now he isn't, Why?" Because, when he was on the verge of a Libyan-style aerial aggression in support of an all-out FSA/Jihadi military offensive (unanimous world public opinion counting for nothing) he was smacked down by the people in first the UK and then the USA. Having been repudiated by a parliamentary vote, and on the verge of a disastrous beating in the US Congress, and being told by his military that his scheme was so inadequate that he would be compelled to do a "Boots on the Ground" operation that they refused to contemplate, he called off his bombing campaign at the last minute-- so hurriedly that the planes of his feckless "socialist" French ally were ready to take off when they were told of the stand-down. Now, like a beaten cur, he feigns sanity by offering to negotiate at Geneva and the worst of the worst--the Zionists and their Saudi buddies-- accuse him of betraying their beloved Syrian people. An accusation echoed, alas, by certain wannabe Marxists! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Behind the Blue Veil; Following the Ninth | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Nov 2, 2013, at 3:13 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: "This is not to speak of Beethoven’s own politics that were in sympathy with the French Revolution even when Schiller recoiled from its excesses. None other than the composer who fled Bolshevism made the case for Beethoven’s revolutionary fiber: Beethoven is the friend and contemporary of the French Revolution, and he remained faithful to it even when, during the Jacobin dictatorship, humanitarians with weak nerves of the Schiller type turned from it, preferring to destroy tyrants on the theatrical stage with the help of cardboard swords. Beethoven, that plebeian genius, who proudly turned his back on emperors, princes and magnates – that is the Beethoven we love for his unassailable optimism, his virile sadness, for the inspired pathos of his struggle, and for his iron will which enabled him to seize destiny by the throat.” –Igor Stravinsky Stravinsky was a skilled, indeed important, composer. But as for his politics... Beethoven was no revolutionary or sympathizer with revolution. Unlike Haydn and Mozart he never joined the leading bourgeois revolutionary movement of his day, Freemasonry. At the height of the Great Revolution he wrote a dreadful coronation ode for the ultra- reactionary Emperor Francis II. Later he wrote (and profited hugely from) a "symphony" celebrating the victory of Europe's leading counterrevolutionary, Arthur Wellesley Duke of Wellington. And his celebrated opera, Fidelio, that culminates in the glorification of a Spanish Bourbon monarch. And his tearing up a dedication to Buonaparte solely because the French dictator, whom he had until then admired, deposed Beethoven's own emperor, Francis, and named himself emperor instead. Beethoven was one of the greatest composers. But as for his politics... Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Arab Revolutions and the Renegade Tariq Ali | Democratic Revolution, Syrian Style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Nov 2, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Does the end of the Ben Ali dictatorship in Tunisia and the destruction of its secret police count as “fundamental change“? Under Ben Ali and his secret police (none of whom, by the way, has been "destroyed" or even tried for their crimes) socialist working- class leaders were sometimes imprisoned. Now they are murdered in the streets by Nahda-tolerated Salafists. Now that's a "fundamental" change! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] War on Drugs (antiimperialist version)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == from Cuba News La Paz, Oct 21 (Prensa Latina) The Bolivian Government and the Ombudsman''s Office are currently investigating the causes and people involved in a clash between coca growers and anti-drug agents that resulted in injuries to 27 people and the taking of eight hostages. The incident occurred on Saturday, when farmers from the northern town of Apolo ambushed a group of Joint-Task-Force soldiers preparing to eradicate excess crops of coca leaves in that area, 442 kilometers from La Paz. The Ombudsman's Office confirmed that a commission had been assigned to the locality to analyze the situation, while the Government (Interior) Ministry reported that it would verify with Peruvian authorities the supposed participation of drug traffickers from that country in the clash. After the death of a soldier on Saturday, the Ministry reported the death of a policeman on Sunday afternoon as a result of the wounds suffered and denounced the coca growers seizure of eight soldiers as hostages. Government Minister Carlos Romero said the ambush on the agents was premeditated and supported by foreigners. The coca growers told the local station Radio Fides that the clash was a resistance measure, in the face of police abuse. Although Bolivia defends cultivation of coca as a tradition and way of life for the Andean people, it fights excess crops, due to the danger that they will be used to make cocaine and not as the leaf has been traditionally used for generations. Bolivian legislation recognizes 12,000 hectares of coca crops for chewing, infusions or Andean religious rituals, as legal. According to official data, Bolivia eradicated more than 9,000 hectares of illegal coca plantations this year, and as many as 25,300 hectares in 2012. According to the UN, coca crops in 2005 occupied 25,400 hectares of this nation, but the figure reached 27,500 in 2006, increasing to 28,900 in 2007, to 30,500 in 2008, and to 30,900 in 2009. The crop reached 31,000 in 2010, decreasing to 27,200 in 2011. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Obamacare as model of the pwogwessive future?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == By Lambert Strether of Corrente. "...One of the pervasive tropes that factions in the political class have propagated in the “left”-leaning discourse of the present moment is that the Republicans/Tea Party/conservatives are reactionary and backward-looking, that they want a future where the United States has returned to an inferior past, like the Gilded Age, or even the antebellum South.[1] There’s even a whole cluster of tropes that conservatives like say Wisconsin’s Scott Walker or Alberta’s Ron Harper are really seeking secession and the restoration of the Confederacy. (OK, I made up the part about Harper.) Never mind the teleology implicit in that view, also implicit in the concept “progressive” (progress toward what, one might ask). But for the sake of the argument let’s accept it. But do we ever consider the notion that the Democrats/”progressives”/liberals also have a future in mind for us, forward-looking but just as horrific in its own way as a future that’s backward-looking? I don’t think we do, and in this post I would like to fight my way towards doing so..." What If We Thought of ObamaCare as a New Model for Future Government Programs? http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/10/what-if-we-thought-of-obamacare-new-model-future-government-programs.html Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Historical Precedence of the Question of Revolutionary Agency
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Oct 11, 2013, at 11:21 AM, shaun may wrote: The question of agency is, in my opinion, the historically precedent question of the epoch and must be addessed by the class movement of the proletariat globally. You are far behind the times. Haven't you learned from so many profound comments on this list that agency must no longer be looked for in the working class? It is now to be found in the Arab Democratic People's RRRevolution with its vanguard of Al Nusra-type fighters and their new liberatory tactic of suicide bombing (in which point, alone, they go beyond their heroic inspirers, the Waffen SS). Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 'Sex Jihad' and Other Lies: Assad's Elaborate Disinformation Campaign
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Oct 9, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote: By Christoph Reuter. Spiegel On Line Spiegel has about as much inherent credibility as the Syrian Press Agency. But this one line, presented as factual, has the ring of truth to it: "Hundreds of Islamists have left his country and traveled to Syria, and he [the Tunisian interior minister] is apparently trying to stem the tide by discrediting these fighters." Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Syrian Revolution Commentary and Analysis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sep 26, 2013, at 11:50 AM, Andrew Pollack wrote: Bless you, Michael! This is such a boon to have all your articles, and those you recommend, all in one place! And the one you posted at the top today couldn't be timelier given the lead story in today's NY Times... And which states: "...US imperialist policy of non-intervention..." Saying, in so many words, that opposition to US intervention (like voting against Obomber's abhorrent and abortive attempt to get Iraq- style congressional acquiescence to any military action of his choice) is a PRO-IMPERIALIST stance! And so what once were ordinary parts of the sectarian Left sink into the Pabloite quicksand of the "Arab Revolution." Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] NY Times: Reporter Denies Writing Article That Linked Syrian Rebels to Chemical Attack
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sep 22, 2013, at 3:28 AM, Clay Claiborne wrote: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/21/reporter-denies-writing-article-that-linked-syrian-rebels-to-chemical-attack/?_r=1 Reporter Denies Writing Article That Linked Syrian Rebels to Chemical Attack By ROBERT MACKEY <http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/author/robert-mackey/ > This lie, as reposted, exposes the pro-intervention bias of its authors. It recognizes that Dale Gavrak wrote every word that appeared in the incriminated article--which itself had made it clear that the on-the-spot reporting was done by, and that the original draft had been written in Arabic by, her colleague. The fuss is merely about a *byline*. The real story is that she has obviously been put under extreme pressure to disavow her own work. Do the sources of these pressures include the source of the chemical weapons? That question should be a focus of any honest investigation into those atrocious incidents. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Obama Warned on Syrian Intel | Consortiumnews
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sep 6, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Carla Del Ponte investigated over illegal evidence Former war crimes prosecutor accused of allowing bullying and bribing of witnesses in trial of alleged Serbian warlord Vojislav Seselj Ian Traynor, Europe editor The Guardian, Wednesday 18 August 2010 13.12 EDT Three years ago some Serbian thugs made accusations against del Ponte. Since then, nothing. But your credulity remains intact, now extending to anything Obama & co. alleges against their Syrian targets! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Obama Warned on Syrian Intel | Consortiumnews
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sep 6, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Carla del Ponte, Milosevic's crooked prosecutor... So you still defend Milosevic! del Ponte tried to prosecute Milosevic for murder of civilians in Sarajevo and for a massacre (Sebrenica), depassing anything *alleged* against Assad, for which his command responsibility was obvious (it was carried out with weapons from the "Yugoslav National Army" that he, as ruler of Serbia, aka the rump "Yugoslavia", had turned over to the butchers Mladic and Karadzic). Her zeal would have indeed been excessive if he had been charged with littering. del Ponte, alas, had to contend with international judges for whom genocide and littering were comparable offenses. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Obama Warned on Syrian Intel | Consortiumnews
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Begin forwarded message: From: Shane Mage Date: September 6, 2013 8:20:12 PM EDT To: Shane Mage Subject: Obama Warned on Syrian Intel | Consortiumnews Obama Warned on Syrian Intel September 6, 2013 Exclusive: Despite the Obama administration’s supposedly “high confidence” regarding Syrian government guilt over the Aug. 21 chemical attack near Damascus, a dozen former U.S. military and intelligence officials are telling President Obama that they are picking up information that undercuts the Official Story. MEMORANDUM FOR: The President FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) SUBJECT: Is Syria a Trap? Precedence: IMMEDIATE We regret to inform you that some of our former co-workers are telling us, categorically, that contrary to the claims of your administration, the most reliable intelligence shows that Bashar al-Assad was NOT responsible for the chemical incident that killed and injured Syrian civilians on August 21, and that British intelligence officials also know this. In writing this brief report, we choose to assume that you have not been fully informed because your advisers decided to afford you the opportunity for what is commonly known as “plausible denial.” http://consortiumnews.com/2013/09/06/obama-warned-on-syrian-intel/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] NYTimes.com: Saudis Try to Gather Support for a Strike
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Saudis Try to Gather Support for a Strike BY DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK Saudi Arabia publicly endorsed military action against Syria for the first time on Sunday, with its foreign minister urging other Arab states to back Western airstrikes. Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/17sMFEy To ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdir...@nytimes.com to your address book. ADVERTISEMENT Copyright 2013 | The New York Times Company | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack (from naked capitalism)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Begin forwarded message: From: naked capitalism Date: September 1, 2013 7:04:30 AM EDT EXCLUSIVE: Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack Mint Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Significance of the Referral to Congress
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sep 1, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Paul Flewers wrote: I've just received this from a pal of mine; what do list members, especially US ones, reckon? Paul F * * * * * Obama's decision to refer to Congress military action against Syria can only be an attempt to find reasons not to engage in military operations and reminds me of Michael Jackson's reverse walk. Reasoning: Declaring war in the US has always been considered a Presidential prerogative which the Presidency has always guarded jealously... US Constitution, Article I Section 8: "The Congress shall have Power...To declare War" The founders, notably Madison and Hamilton, were very explicit that this means that the power to take the country to war is *denied* to the Office of the President. Until the advent of the Imperial Presidency and its Cold War, warmongering presidents had to provide pretexts and provocations (The Maine, The Zimmerman Telegram, Pearl Harbor etc.) in order to get a declaration of War. Since then, bald fictions (North Korean invasion of the South, Gulf of Tonkin attack, Kossovo massacres,WMDs, etc.) have usually sufficed to get retroactive congressional consent to undeclared and therefore unconstitutional wars. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Obama balks
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Does that mean Assad scores a run, or does he only advance to second or third base? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Win-Win for Assad as Obama Response to CW Mass Murder Put on Hold
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 31, 2013, at 11:37 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote: Is there any thing else Barack Obama could do to make things better for his good buddy Bashar al-Assad? Obama, faced with overwhelming worldwide and even domestic public opposition against his announced intention to violate international law, US treaty law, and the US constitution by unilateral military aggression in Syria, is forced to climb back down (supposedly until he has had the chance to twist enough "liberal" congressional arms) and, for the time being, refrain from more war crimes. And what do we hear from this self-proclaimed RRRevolutionary opponent of Imperialist Intervention in Syria? A condemnation of Obama that would sound extreme from the mouth of a Cheney or McCain! Shane Mage "L'après-vie, c'est une auberge espagnole. L'on n'y trouve que ce qu'on a apporté." Bardo Thodol Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] query
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 31, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Steve Heeren wrote: Can you recommend any good books or articles on the role Hollywood has played in spreading american ideology (esp. "land of opportunity", "individualism", etc) worldwide through the distribution of its movies? Start (it all starts with) "Hollywood" by Gore Vidal. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Wheels Falling Off the Imperial Reality-CreatingMachine
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 31, 2013, at 1:03 PM, Jeff wrote: Well, because theres a boatload of mis- and disinformation floating about in the form of pictures and YouTubes, thats why. Actually this point is quite true. but it was all Assad... This has certainly required considerable resources, but the government of Syria certainly has those. The rebels and people living in liberated zones don't have paid staff to perform that kind of work nor much free time to do it... Those jihadist gangs sponsored, respectively, by Riyadh, Qatar, and Doha have access to unlimited funds and technical personnel--much more than Damascus (where is the Syrian Al Jazeera or Al Arabiya?)--to carry out propaganda operations in order to provoke US intervention. Are they any less physically or morally capable of slaughtering Syrian civilians than the Assad regime ? Aum Shinrikyu, with far fewer resources available to them than to the jihadist gangs, assembled and used a big arsenal of poison gas. As for the moral scruples of the jihadists... Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Wheels Falling Off the Imperial Reality-Creating Machine
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 31, 2013, at 11:11 AM, shm...@pipeline.com wrote: Wheels Falling Off the Imperial Reality-Creating Machine http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/08/wheels-falling-off-the-imperial-reality-creating-machine.html The sender also included this note: “Wheels Falling Off the Imperial Reality-Creating Machine” -- Sent via a FeedFlare link from a FeedBurner feed. http://www.google.com/support/feedburner/bin/answer.py?answer=78966&topic=13246 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Attack Those With & Using Chemical Weapons
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 28, 2013, at 12:08 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: You can't use MANPAD's as offensive weapons. That is a FACT. The only difference between an offensive and a defensive weapon is whether the force using the weapon is attacking or defending. For Vercingetorix the wall around Alesia was a defensive weapon. For Caesar the wall circumvallating that wall was an offensive weapon and the wall circumvallating that one a defensive weapon. A MANPAD capable of downing a fighter jet would find it even easier to down a civilian airliner. The US authorities are naturally more than reluctant to put such weapons within easy reach of fanatical terrorist fascists, those Frankenstein monsters of their own creation, Al Nusra/Islamic State of Iraq and Syria/"Al Qaeda"/et. al. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fmr. Army col.: Chelsea Manning should be jailed with men — MSNBC
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 26, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Sheldon Ranz wrote: OK, if that's what passes for logic around here now, then the next time MSNBC interviews a bonafide progressive, I'll post here, applying the same argument. That'll be fun! Of what a "bonafide progressive" is I've no idea. Anyway, when they interview Noam Chomsky, certainly the world's #1 expert on US state terrorism, and describe him as a "terrorism expert," you can post away to your heart's content--but, a friendly word, don't try to fast until then! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fmr. Army col.: Chelsea Manning should be jailed with men — MSNBC
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 26, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Sheldon Ranz wrote: By the way, I actually read the article linked to by Louis. The article does not refer to the former army colonel as a 'terrorism expert', but as a...former (or retired) army colonel. Are you blind? msnbc's header for the article on its website was :"http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/**25/terrorism-expert-manning-** still-a-male-and-should-be-**jailed-with-men/<http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/25/terrorism-expert-manning-still-a-male-and-should-be-jailed-with-men/ >" Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fmr. Army col.: Chelsea Manning should be jailed with men — MSNBC
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 26, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Sheldon Ranz wrote: How is the fact that MSNBC is reporting on what the colonel said a reflection on MSNBC? MSNBC is responsible for who it puts on its air. That they call this type a "terrorism expert" is more than a reflection on MSNBC--it is a severe condemnation of it. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What Lenin thought a vanguard was
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 22, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Joaquín Bustelo wrote: The Communists are "that section which pushes forward all the others." It is NOT about being at the front of the parade. So the phrase "vanguard" is as anapt as it is offputting! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What Lenin thought a vanguard was
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Everybody knows (if only subconsciously) that the vanguard is the part of the force destined to undergo the most casualties if not to be wiped out altogether. Ever wonder why vanguard parties find it so difficult to recruit and retain members? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] How Laura Poitras Helped Snowden Spill His Secrets - NYTimes.com
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 18, 2013, at 9:01 PM, Charlie wrote: "Only the Bolsheviks stood uncompromisingly for peace, land, and bread -- the slogan Lenin had given them in April" (Harrison Salisbury!) Salisbury was an ignoramus. "Land, Peace, and Bread" was the slogan of the masses in the March revolution. The slogans Lenin "gave" the Bolsheviks (against the opposition of Stalin and his ilk) in April were "All Power to the Soviets of Workers', Peasants', and Soldiers' Deputies," "Down with the Imperialist War," and "No Confidence in the Providsional Government." Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Escaping from the Friedman Paradigm (Krugman fails to escape.)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == " The idea that an empowered democratic government might drive progress and social transformation, and disrupt the status quo rather than stabilize it, seems utterly alien to these mainstream thinkers" Escaping from the Friedman Paradigm http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/08/escaping-from-the-friedman-paradigm.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Egypt’s Revolution: Democratic, Not Socialist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 7, 2013, at 4:16 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: By Pham Binh. http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=9425 That is not how Marxists consider revolutions. In history revolutions happen all the time without being either democratic or socialist in any sense of either word, and all over the world, not just in Latin America and Africa. Revolution being a positive word for many people, once a popular revolt breaks out everyone trying to use it to seize political power and its perquisites becomes a "rrrevolutionary." The only relevant differentiation is that between POLITICAL and SOCIAL revolutions. The former (commonplace) change the personnel exercising power. The latter (very rare) change the class holding power. The American revolution was a political revolution--rich colonists born in the new world violently replaced rich merchants born in the old. The Great Revolution was a social revolution. The high clergy and high nobility had their property confiscated and taken by formerly small- propertied urban and rural elites (and, of course, most of them also went to exile or the guillotine). In Egypt the army carried out its revolution when they deposed Mubarak and put power in the hands of al- Sisi. Nothing democratic or socialist there. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "The theoretical bankruptcy of a certain far left" (Trotskyist)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 1, 2013, at 10:19 AM, David Thorstad wrote: Critique from Algeria of a European (mostly Trotskyist/oid/ite) far left's bankrupt analysis of the Arab revolts and its realignment with its own countries' imperialist policies (focused mainly on France and the NPA). David http://www.palestine-solidarite.org/analyses.Ahmed_Halfaoui.010813.htm La faillite théorique d’une certaine extrême-gauche 31 juillet 2013, 22:14 L’extrême gauche européenne et française en particulier vient de connaître son second baptême du feu théorique sur les Arabes et assimilés. Il y a 60 ans elle était massivement du côté des luttes de libération contre les impérialismes finissants...Il a dû s’en passer des choses depuis et durant ces quelques années, pour que l’on ne trouve plus cette perspicacité implacable de lucidité et qu’il soit permis à deux ou trois« théoriciens » d’imposer une lecture des faits des plus déconcertantes, de brandir des concepts ou le délire le dispute à la pire des compromissions et de participer sans risque d’opprobre à l’offensive impérialiste contre les peuples. Que cela se fasse au nom de la « démocratie »contre la « tyrannie » ou d’une « lutte des classes » dont ils voient seuls l’expression. Nous faisant oublier la Libye et le lamentable démenti infligé à leur science de la « révolution », ils se sont tournés vers la Syrie où, dès l’entame de la crise, ils ont planté les éléments constitutifs d’une analyse qui ne donne aucune place et aucun rôle fondamental aux entreprises des Etats-Unis et de leurs satellites européens et arabes, ni ne prend en compte l’investissement massif de groupes djihadistes injectés dans la « révolution ». La nébuleuse Armée syrienne libre (ASL), fiction militaire soutenue par les médias atlantistes, bénéficie d’une reconnaissance sans faille de nos théoriciens, alors même que sur le terrain nous sommes en face de chefaillons, la plupart du temps guidés par les desiderata de leurs financiers étrangers ou par l’appât du gain. Vérité que même la presse occidentale n’arrive plus à taire. Mais lorsque nos prétendus « marxistes révolutionnaires » ont dû se rendre à l’évidence, ils continuent de prémunir leur édifice analytique de la faillite. Jusqu’au bout. Ne pouvant ne pas voir et/ou occulter les faits, ils rangent, sans avertir, la « luttes des classes » pour se transformer en simples relais de l’information, du bon côté du manche. Sur le site du NPA, par exemple, nous pouvons lire que« l’état-major de l’ASL et l’opposition syrienne ont appelé les différents groupes de l’ASL à condamner les combats entre frères et mis en garde de ne pas tomber dans le piège des affrontements internes suscités par le régime assassin de Bachar el-Assad ». Il s’agit rappelons-le d’une guerre dans laguerre où il y a une ASL qui combat aux côtés des djihadistes et une ASL qui combat aux côtés des Kurdes (encore un acteur ignoré dans la« lutte des classes » qui fait irruption). Nous aurions dû nous attendre à ce que cela soit une occasion de réviser les prémices et de remise en cause de la ligne adoptée. Il n’en est pas question, il est fait comme si…sauf que l’allusion à la « révolution » n’est plus de mise. Mais il y a quelque chose de plus déconcertant. C’est cet alignement sans hésitation de l’extrême-gauche européenne sur « son propre impérialisme » contre les autres. Le reproche est fait aux puissances occidentales de ne pas« aider » en armes l’ « opposition » ce qui « ne fait que pousser un Assad conforté par ses alliés russes, iraniens et libanaisà accélérer son offensive criminelle ». Plus loin dans la dégénérescence il n’y a pas. Ahmed Halfaoui Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Obama and Boehner "broke arms" to escape Amash/Conyers
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Obama Starting to Lose It Over Snowden http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/08/obama-starting-to-lose-it-over-snowden.html Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] So what happened to imperialist arming of the FSA?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 29, 2013, at 5:19 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote: Then go figure which car bombs were both claimed by the opposition and killed civilians and report back. Nobody claims car bombs. But they happen to be SOP against Shiites and other heretics for "The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" in Iraq. As to the suggestion that the Syrian government sets off car bombs against its own supporters in order to propagandize people like Claiborne and Proyect not to support Al Qaeda and its allies--to quote you, this is quite insane. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] So what happened to imperialist arming of the FSA?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 29, 2013, at 3:21 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: It is worthless because it is a waste of time to even care about this conflict, since it lacks a socialist program... That is quite irrelevant, because socialism (in any sense worthy of the word) is not on anybody's agenda anywhere in the world today. For that to happen working-class political organization, generally moribond, needs massive revitalization. What makes the Syrian conflict "worthless" is that the battle cries, representing the two camps, are "Legitimacy of the State" versus "Allahu Akbar." Both represent reactionary, antidemocratic, ideologies (shared by their governmental backers, respectively). Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] So what happened to imperialist arming of the FSA?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 29, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote: *And I challenge you to backup this slimy pro-Assad charge that the opposition has killed "their own share of the civilians slaughtered"* Have you, for instance, heard of car bombs (as, yesterday, throughout Iraq), the weapon of choice for the "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" fascists who supply the military muscle for your favored insurgents? The government of Calles certainly deserved to be overthrown. Is that why you lined up with the Cristeros? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] So what happened to imperialist arming of the FSA?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 29, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: On 7/29/13 12:56 PM, Shane Mage wrote: Ordinary negotiation technique among that sort of allied types. Let me know when you see conjfirmed reports of the FSA executing all the commanders of Al Nusra/Islamic State of Iraq and Syria and expelling their foreign jihadi recruits from the country. Shane, you are embarrassing yourself but I guess that anybody with the amount of animosity you had toward the FLN in Algeria in the 1960s is beyond being embarrassed. Long before deGaulle showed what he meant by "I understand," the FLN had shown me its true character in the assassination campaign against the USTA and then in the Melouza massacre. If its foreign "leftist" allies were capable of embarrassment they would have shown it when the FLN (aka the ALN of Boumedienne) on being handed power immediately murdered hundreds of thousands of Algerians and expelled more than a million from their homes and their homeland. And repeated that behavior on just as grand a scale in the 1990's. I have seen no sign of embarrassment from any of them. Fighting in Aleppo widens cracks in splintering opposition as military gains are reversed Martin Chulov, Beirut The Observer, Saturday 13 July 2013 Jabhat al-Nusra, the main jihadist group, and the FSA had until recently worked alongside each other during major operations in the north. While relations between them have not yet broken down, the rise in prominence of fringe organisations is eroding discipline across opposition ranks... Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] From the WSJ: Crackdown in Egypt Fans U.S. Fears
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:27 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: "On Sunday, the government granted soldiers the right to arrest civilians, reviving sections of an emergency law under Mr. Mubarak. A day earlier, Interior Minister Mohammed Ibrahim said he planned to reconstitute a secret police unit that was responsible for decades of oppression under Mr. Mubarak...the U.S.'s goal of promoting democracy in Egypt wouldn't be advanced by calling it a coup because doing so would alienate the generals and other leaders who the U.S. is now counting on to foster an inclusive democratic process." The Brothers did their worst but failed in their appointed task of containing the Egyptian working class. So now it's back to open fascist repression, aka "an inclusive democratic process." Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 ___ pen-l mailing list pe...@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] So what happened to imperialist arming of the FSA?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 29, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: On 7/29/13 10:21 AM, Shane Mage wrote: Unfortunately the Syrian faction they want to support is openly allied with Al Qaeda, and that creates a big problem for their domestic propaganda operations. So the financing and arming has to be out of public view and channeled through Arabia, Qatar, Emirates, Turkey. Which, you may [or, if you choose, not] note, are invisible in this article--as invisible as in all the rest of the moaning about the "primitive" state of the FSA weaponry (with which, according to the official UN casualty figures, they have so far managed to kill some 40,000 Syrian soldiers plus their own share of the civilians slaughtered in this worthless conflict). Shane, what are you saying? The Syrian faction they want to support is openly allied with Al Qaeda? Aren't you aware that the jihadists killed a top FSA commander just a couple of weeks ago? Ordinary negotiation technique among that sort of allied types. Let me know when you see conjfirmed reports of the FSA executing all the commanders of Al Nusra/Islamic State of Iraq and Syria and expelling their foreign jihadi recruits from the country. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A missile that can reduce city blocks to rubble
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 27, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: According to the monitors at the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, the attack struck the Bab al-Neirab neighborhood in the city’s southwest, home to the headquarters of a number of rebel brigades, including the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, which is linked to Al Qaeda. It was unclear how many of the dead were civilians... So it was a *military* target, headquarters of at least one fascist gang. The only hope for protection of civilians is an immediate negotiated ceasefire, not support of one reactionary gang or the other. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Blithering idiocy at wsws.org
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:03 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: They use the word "plan" in an utterly perverse manner. Dempsey was asked to draft some possible forms of intervention in Syria but was leery of implementing any of them. If you are going to plagiarize the bourgeois press, you might as well engage with what it reports: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/22/us-military-intervention-syria/ US military intervention in Syria would create 'unintended consequences' General Martin Dempsey, top military officer, warns senators that each option under consideration would be costly and uncertain The question for the anti-anti-imperialists, however, is: Which of Gen. Dempsey's "options" do you support? The anti-anti-anti- imperialists await your answers! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The collapse of legitimacy: How Egypt's secular intelligentsia betrayed the revolution – Opinion – ABC Religion & Ethics (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 23, 2013, at 10:17 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2013/07/11/3800817.htm Fetishism of "the process!" Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] New Study of Foragers Undermines Claim That War Has Deep Evolutionary Roots | Cross-Check, Scientific American Blog Network
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 19, 2013, at 8:49 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: How odd to see people in this day and age channeling Robert Ardrey. Robert Ardrey Who he? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] New Study of Foragers Undermines Claim That War Has Deep Evolutionary Roots | Cross-Check, Scientific American Blog Network
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: It`s also interesting to consider that chimpanzees are over stressed by being hunted by humans or by having groups confined in a too small territory... Those same conditions apply even more, throughout our known history, to the human variety of apes. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Understanding Syria's revolution today | SocialistWorker.org
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 19, 2013, at 3:52 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Understanding Syria's revolution today There can be no greater example of question-begging to impose a preconceived conclusion than to presume that "revolution" rather than "rebellion" is the appropriate label for the Sunni insurrection in Syria. It would seem that, in view of the facts that the insurrection has no political expression other than its universal battle-cry Allahu- Akbar and that its international financiers and armorers are some of the most despicable people in the world (the scorpion bottle containing the despots of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Turkey...), it would require some pretty spectacular contortions for anyone pretending to the appellation "marxist" to refer to what has befallen the Syrians as a "revolution" rather than a "revolt" or "jacquerie." (yes, I know that Pablo and Mandel invented an "Arab Revolution" to justify their tailing the dictatorial Algerian FLN. But why, a half-century later, would someone repeat such an inanity?). Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Egypt's latest revolutionary act was profoundly democratic | Omar Robert Hamilton | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 18, 2013, at 8:38 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: full: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/17/egypt-revolutionary-act-democratic I'm stupified that this could appear in The Guardian: "a possible side effect of which could be the poisoning of the Nile, which 98% of Egyptians live alongside and depend on for their water. This causes tensions with downstream neighbours who have historically been unable to exploit the river as effectively as Egypt." How could they not know that the Nile flows north! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Cognitive dissonance
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 17, 2013, at 12:50 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: I have no idea what the Xinhua reporter thought of the film, but she looked aghast at me when I said I loved it. Maybe it was because I had brought along my pet Python Lucille that was draped across my shoulders. Named after the Revolutionary heroine, Lucille Desmoulins? Shane Mage "L'après-vie, c'est une auberge espagnole. L'on n'y trouve que ce qu'on a apporté." Bardo Thodol Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 13, 2013, at 4:03 PM, DW wrote: Tom, I think the broader point the article was trying to make was that *individuals* ought to choose vegetarianism out of the cruelty to animals... The behavior of the ethical omnivore is based on the premise that animals have the right not to be treated cruelly, an entirely defensible proposition of moral philosophy. But the behavior of the absolute vegetarian is based on the premise that animals have the right not to be eaten, a totally indefensible violation of the most basic laws of our great common-cosmic trogoautoegocrat (aka "nature"). Shane Mage "--Now, Hamlet, where's Polonius? --At supper. --At supper? where? --Not where he eats, but where he is eaten. A certain convocation of politic worms are e'en at him. Your worm is your only emperor for diet. We fat all creatures else to fat us, and we fat ourselves for maggots." (Act IV, Scene III) Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Help Defend Jacobin / CounterPunch and the War on Transgender People
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 13, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Sheldon Ranz wrote: Julian Vigo and Lierre Keith have both claimed that members of the transgenedered community have launched violent assaults against radical feminist women. I would like to see a rebuttal of these charges (if possible). Violent assaults are felonies. And if the cops are uninterested, civil suits are in order. Before asking for "rebuttals" you should first ask for the circumstances: what charges, when filed, against whom, where. If there are no answers, the claims can only be treated as slanders. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Raul Castro’s Remarks on Cuba’s Social Crises
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 12, 2013, at 5:47 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: Cuba is on the right track, indeed After sixty years on the wrong track! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Al Qaeda kills Free Syrian Army commander: FSA spokesman | Reuters
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 12, 2013, at 8:15 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: More evidence that the knee-jerk "anti-imperialist" left is incapable of understanding Syrian reality. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/11/us-syria-crisis-commander-idUSBRE96A10620130711 "Kamal Hamami, a member of the Free Syrian Army's Supreme Military Council, known by his nom de guerre Abu Bassel al-Ladkani, was meeting with members of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant in the port city of Latakia when they killed him, Qassem Saadeddine, a Free Syrian Army spokesman, told Reuters..."He met them to discuss battle plans," Saadeddine added." A falling out among thieves? Or disinformation? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star Debate on the "Military Coup" in Egypt
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 7, 2013, at 2:35 PM, audrada...@aol.com wrote: PHAM BINH: Not backing military coups against democratically elected governments and wholesale repression of mass-based Islamist opposition movements is something socialists anywhere in the world should be able to agree on. What fetid fetishism of the capitalist electoral farce! If Morsi was "democratically elected" so was Mubarek, not to mention Bush and Samaras. If the Muslim Brotherhood is a "mass based" opposition movement so is the Democratic Party, not to mention the PRI. When thieves fall out honest people come into their own--but only if they remember that both of 'em are thieves. The Egyptian Revolutionary Socialists seem to recognize this quite fully. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Johnny Depp’s Tonto misstep: Race and “The Lone Ranger” - Salon.com
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 4, 2013, at 4:11 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: http://www.salon.com/2013/07/03/johnny_depps_tonto_misstep_race_and_the_lone_ranger/ Any writer who says "proscribed" when he means " prescribed" deserves to be proscribed. Lucius Cornelius Sulla pcc Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Syria: Father Francois Murad Beheading Video an Assad Propaganda Hoax - IBTimes UK
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:35 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/485700/20130702/syria-catholic-priest-beheading-video-murad.htm The article confirms two things: That Father Murad was killed by the rrrevolutionaries and that the video shows executions of prisoners by the rrrevolutionaries. nicht wahr? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Economist on Iran's nuclear program
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 27, 2013, at 6:14 PM, Eli Stephens wrote: Iran has repeatedly said that it rejects nuclear weapons as a means of defense (the article talks about "if and when they decide it wants one", conveniently ignoring that it already HAS decided NOT to have one) In the days when Persian rulers adhered to the Magian religion, there primary religious obligation was always to the truth. But Zoroaster and his followers were mere pre-Islamic heathen. Today, there is no reason to regard the Iranian state as any different from all the others. As such all its statements about its plans and intentions must be presumed to be lies. Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 27, 2013, at 4:59 PM, randy...@aol.com wrote: The fact is that Zinoviev, Radek, Kamenev, Bukarrin, were indeed Jewish. Randy None of whom were members of the first Council of Peoples' Commissars In a message dated 6/27/2013 11:34:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time, marvga...@gmail.com writes: I haven't bothered to link to the bios of the others to see whether any others had a Jewish background, although I doubt it Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/shmage%40pipeline.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] From the Belly of the Beast
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 23, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Jeff wrote: The only issue as far as I'm concerned is getting the U.S. the hell out of there, lock, stock and drone. Well finally a statement that everyone on this list can fully agree with! True, but some on this list would add (silently, to themselves) "especially if they were sent, lock, stock, and drone" to the Syria-Hezbollah-Iran front! Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Arming the RRRRevolution (part II)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 23, 2013, at 10:57 AM, Shane Mage wrote: « Kiribati Drowns? Bomb Syria! | Main | Obama: Network Spying Is Serious Human Rights Abuse » June 22, 2013 The 11 countries who form the friends for the destruction of Syria met today in Qatar. Before the meeting started Secretary of State Kerry hadplanned to organize a common distribution of weapons through the CIA controlled Free Syrian Army head General Idris to somewhat cut out the jihadist from the weapon stream: Western and Arab opponents of Bashar Assad met in Qatar on Saturday to tighten coordination of their support for rebels battling to overthrow the Syrian president. Ministers from 11 countries including the United States, European and regional Sunni Muslim powers, held talks that Washington said should commit participants to direct all aid through the Western- backed Supreme Military Council, which it hopes can offset the growing power of jihadist rebel forces. That move was thought to be was necessary as Saudi Arabia as well as Qatar were freely distributing weapon to the various takfiri terrorist groups: Two Gulf sources told Reuters on Saturday that Saudi Arabia, which has taken a lead role among Arab opponents of Assad, had also accelerated delivery of advanced weapons to the rebels. "In the past week there have been more arrivals of these advanced weapons. They are getting them more frequently," one source said, without giving details. Another Gulf source described them as "potentially balance-tipping" supplies. Before today's meeting Qatar made an attempt to put the takfiris it supports under the nominal umbrella of the Free Syrian Army: The Free Syrian Army has offered powerful Islamist rebel groups a share of advanced new weapons if they unify under the FSA banner. "Idriss offered to support the Islamist factions by sharing the weapons he expects to receive, if they joined an alliance with the FSA and agree to certain conditions," the Damascus-based rebel said yesterday. ... He also said a delegation from Qatar had been in attendance - the only non-Syrian presence at the meeting. That had surprised those taking part, the rebel said, but might have been linked to the summit of opposition backers, known as The Friends of Syria, due to take place in Doha today. The conference in Qatar has ended by now and Kerry has (again) failed: Ministers from the 11 main countries which form the Friends of Syria group agreed "to provide urgently all the necessary materiel and equipment to the opposition on the ground, each country in its own way in order to enable them to counter brutal attacks by the regime and its allies". "Each country in its own way" means Kerry failed - badly - to united the weapon flow. It seems then that Saudi Arabia and Qatar will continue to provide weapons to Jabhat al-Nusra and the other takfiri terrorist groups in Syria. This disunity should let the Obama administration recognize that their argument to feed weapons to the "good rebels" to starve the takfiris will not work. When Qatar and Saudi Arabia continue to provide these "in their own way" then the takfiris will continue to be the strongest section of the insurgency. As a lot of new weapons are streaming in the Syrian Arab Army should probably stop its current offense and stay defensive while devising new tactics against such weapons. Tanks advancing openly or as sitting ducks at checkpoints are massive targets and will not survive an onslaught of Konkurs-M, Kornet and other modern anti-tank weapons. There are ways to counter them but that will need some time to be prepared and trained. Meanwhile large weapon transports can be observed and raided in quick and surprising raids could interdict them. « Kiribati Drowns? Bomb Syria! | Main | Obama: Network Spying Is Serious Human Rights Abuse » Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Arming the RRRRevolution (part I)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 23, 2013, at 11:13 AM, Shane Mage wrote: On Jun 23, 2013, at 10:57 AM, Shane Mage wrote: « Kiribati Drowns? Bomb Syria! | Main | Obama: Network Spying Is Serious Human Rights Abuse » June 22, 2013 On June 12 The NYT's CJ Chivers reported from Syria on workshops that make some ammunition for the foreign supported insurgency in Syria. The piece, starting with the headline, was a long whine about the alleged lack of arms of these poor killers. It included photos from the workshops by Chiver's sidekick Tyler Hicks. Starved for Arms, Syria Rebels Make Their Own “Everybody knows we do not have the weapons we need to defend ourselves,” said Abu Trad, a commander of the Saraqib Rebels Front, shortly before he allowed visitors into this mortar-round plant. “But we have the will, and we have humble means, and we have tools.” ... [T]he arms plants remain a prominent feature of the opposition’s logistics, as arms flows from the Arab world fail to keep up with demand. ... “All we need is effective weapons,” [Khaled Muhammed Addibis, a rebel commander,] said. “Effective weapons. Nothing else.” When Chivers wrote the above the official propaganda line said that the US was not actively arming the "rebels" but that Obama was "withstanding the pressure to do so". That was nonsense and Chivers knew it was. While he wrote the story of those poor "rebels" who had to make weapons themselves because they do not get them elsewhere, Chivers also saw many modern weapons coming in from Libya and elsewhere and he knwe that the CIA was involved in distributing them. But he never reported on that. Instead he wrote the above lies. How do we know that? Well, just look what Chivers writes today: Evidence gathered in Syria, along with flight-control data and interviews with militia members, smugglers, rebels, analysts and officials in several countries, offers a profile of a complex and active multinational effort, financed largely by Qatar, to transport arms from Libya to Syria’s opposition fighters. ... [W]hile the system appears to succeed in moving arms across multiple borders and to select rebel groups, once inside Syria the flow branches out. Extremist fighters, some of them aligned with Al Qaeda, have the money to buy the newly arrived stock, and many rebels are willing to sell. ... But the Libyan influx appears to account for at least a portion of the antitank weapons seen in the conflict this spring, including Belgian-made projectiles for M40 recoilless rifles and some of the Russian-made Konkurs-M guided missiles that have been destroying Syrian tanks in recent months. ... Signs of munitions from the former Qaddafi stockpile are readily visible. Late last month The New York Times found crates, storage sleeves and spent cartridge cases for antitank rounds from Libya in the possession of Ahfad al-Rasul, a prominent group fighting the government and aligned with the Supreme Military Council. While he reported on insurgents "starved of arms" Chivers and his photographer Hicks, actually had seen the recoilless rifles, the guided missiles and lots of crates of ammunition from Libya. But at that time the official propaganda theme was "poor underarmed rebels" and Chivers diligently followed it. That propaganda theme was used to create some public support for escalating the war by pushing even more arms into the rebels hands. The story of the "starved of arms rebels" was untrue and Chivers knew that "late last month" when he traveled in Syria. As always their are some nuggets of truth in the NYT's and Chivers' reporting. But often, as shown here, the writers are pushed, or oblige silently, to keep to the official line the White House is distributing. The few time the NYT is going against the official U.S. propaganda are just diversion to keep up an image of a free press. --- « Kiribati Drowns? Bomb Syria! | Main | Obama: Network Spying Is Serious Human Rights Abuse » Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Arming the RRRRevolution
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == « Kiribati Drowns? Bomb Syria! | Main | Obama: Network Spying Is Serious Human Rights Abuse » June 22, 2013 On June 12 The NYT's CJ Chivers reported from Syria on workshops that make some ammunition for the foreign supported insurgency in Syria. The piece, starting with the headline, was a long whine about the alleged lack of arms of these poor killers. It included photos from the workshops by Chiver's sidekick Tyler Hicks. Starved for Arms, Syria Rebels Make Their Own “Everybody knows we do not have the weapons we need to defend ourselves,” said Abu Trad, a commander of the Saraqib Rebels Front, shortly before he allowed visitors into this mortar-round plant. “But we have the will, and we have humble means, and we have tools.” ... [T]he arms plants remain a prominent feature of the opposition’s logistics, as arms flows from the Arab world fail to keep up with demand. ... “All we need is effective weapons,” [Khaled Muhammed Addibis, a rebel commander,] said. “Effective weapons. Nothing else.” When Chivers wrote the above the official propaganda line said that the US was not actively arming the "rebels" but that Obama was "withstanding the pressure to do so". That was nonsense and Chivers knew it was. While he wrote the story of those poor "rebels" who had to make weapons themselves because they do not get them elsewhere, Chivers also saw many modern weapons coming in from Libya and elsewhere and he knwe that the CIA was involved in distributing them. But he never reported on that. Instead he wrote the above lies. How do we know that? Well, just look what Chivers writes today: Evidence gathered in Syria, along with flight-control data and interviews with militia members, smugglers, rebels, analysts and officials in several countries, offers a profile of a complex and active multinational effort, financed largely by Qatar, to transport arms from Libya to Syria’s opposition fighters. ... [W]hile the system appears to succeed in moving arms across multiple borders and to select rebel groups, once inside Syria the flow branches out. Extremist fighters, some of them aligned with Al Qaeda, have the money to buy the newly arrived stock, and many rebels are willing to sell. ... But the Libyan influx appears to account for at least a portion of the antitank weapons seen in the conflict this spring, including Belgian- made projectiles for M40 recoilless rifles and some of the Russian- made Konkurs-M guided missiles that have been destroying Syrian tanks in recent months. ... Signs of munitions from the former Qaddafi stockpile are readily visible. Late last month The New York Times found crates, storage sleeves and spent cartridge cases for antitank rounds from Libya in the possession of Ahfad al-Rasul, a prominent group fighting the government and aligned with the Supreme Military Council. While he reported on insurgents "starved of arms" Chivers and his photographer Hicks, actually had seen the recoilless rifles, the guided missiles and lots of crates of ammunition from Libya. But at that time the official propaganda theme was "poor underarmed rebels" and Chivers diligently followed it. That propaganda theme was used to create some public support for escalating the war by pushing even more arms into the rebels hands. The story of the "starved of arms rebels" was untrue and Chivers knew that "late last month" when he traveled in Syria. As always their are some nuggets of truth in the NYT's and Chivers' reporting. But often, as shown here, the writers are pushed, or oblige silently, to keep to the official line the White House is distributing. The few time the NYT is going against the official U.S. propaganda are just diversion to keep up an image of a free press. --- The 11 countries who form the friends for the destruction of Syria met today in Qatar. Before the meeting started Secretary of State Kerry hadplanned to organize a common distribution of weapons through the CIA controlled Free Syrian Army head General Idris to somewhat cut out the jihadist from the weapon stream: Western and Arab opponents of Bashar Assad met in Qatar on Saturday to tighten coordination of their support for rebels battling to overthrow the Syrian president. Ministers from 11 countries including the United States, European and regional Sunni Muslim powers, held talks that Washington said should commit participants to direct all aid through the Western-backed Supreme Military Council, which it hopes can offset the growing power of jihadist rebel forces. That move was thought to be was necessary as Saudi Arabia as well as Qatar were freely distributing weapon to the various takfiri terrori
Re: [Marxism] Fw: Prehistoric UFO and ET images found in remote cave in India
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 17, 2013, at 11:13 PM, Marla Vijaya kumar wrote: Louis, I wonder why no one has responded to this message I had sent. I would like to have some response from people. I am right now working on the implications of extraterrestial life on Dialectical Materialism. Vijaya Kumar marla That it is a hoax is proven by the "wormhole." A "wormhole" is a purely theoretical construction, a zero-dimensional (ie., non physical) point at the center of another theoretical construction, a "black hole" which is an infinitely massive, infinitely small (ie., non physical) object. By definition (having no physical existence) it cannot be depicted. Only an ignorant hoaxer would even try to depict it. (the brightness of the images also proves it a hoax). Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Subject: [Marxism] Prehistoric UFO and ET images found in remote cave in India I had come across this news item, while I was searching for material on Life in the universe. http://www.archaeologydaily.com/news/20100217/Prehistoric-UFO-and-ET-images-found-in-remote-cave-in-India.html The purported cave painting in remote Jungles of Madhya Pradesh, India, depicts an astronaut, a flying saucer dropping some probes or some such things and emitting radio waves or some Electromagnetic radiation. Additionally, there is a sketch of some mesh like structure, which has been interpreted by the archaeologists who discovered the painting as a 'wormhole", implying that they reached earth after travelling through a wormhole. What is striking about the purported cave painting, said to be thousands of years old is that the representations are quiet modern, in that they resemble the representations being usually made by researchers in their notes. An ancient caveman, 15 thousand yeras back could not represent such scientific concepts as wormholes and em emissions, even if they had been witness to such an encounter. Either it is a modern day hoax or there might have been an alien visit sometime in prehistory and not finding anyone capable of communicating with, would have drawn the sketch themselves. A radio carbon dating of the paints used might give us an idea of how old the painting is. I tend to believe that the whole thing is a clever hoax. Nothing clever about it. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What is a Proxy War? | Darth Nader
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 16, 2013, at 1:45 PM, Jeff wrote: ... Robert Fisk's very mistaken analysis). What is your experience in the Levant, what knowledge do you have of Syria, that qualifies you to correct Fisk instead of learning from him? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Syrian "Revolution:" does justice
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://projects.nytimes.com/watching-syrias-war Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] are you now or ever been a member of the ISO?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 3, 2013, at 11:04 PM, Michael Smith wrote: Perhaps it's a bit like hanging around people who are passionate Bourbon legitimists. Before you know it, you have the Duc d'Orleans' family tree by heart. I'm confused. Wouldn't the Bourbon legitimists be passionate about the pedigree of the Comte de Chambord, and the Orléanists about the Comte de Paris? And isn't there a Bonapartist pretender somewhere? Is there even a Duc d'Orléans any more? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Terry Eagleton says we’ve forgotten how to read. Does it matter? - The Globe and Mail
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 1, 2013, at 11:18 AM, Daniel Lindvall wrote: So really, where is the objectively forcing argument for preferring a brand of malt whiskey to any other or, for that matter, to any other drink that is neither better or worse for your health? Near- consensus among the expertise? We'd all be economic liberals in that case. What makes you think that real expertise doesn't exist and/or that economic liberals exemplify any sort of expertise (except, of course, expertise in falsification)? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Statement: Refusing to Accept Sexism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On May 31, 2013, at 3:04 PM, Thomas Bias wrote: For those not fluent in hypertext markup language, the Greek word is: Βατραχομυομαχία. For those not fluent in Greek (as I am not), I can't help you! "Βατραχομυομαχία"--a battle between frogs and mice. Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
