Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == "gyp" as in cheat as in Gypsy? Prolly so... On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Ken Hiebert wrote: > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Ken H. said: > If we can pride ourselves on being more advanced today, don't we owe this > to the struggles of those who have fought racist oppression? In the absence > of such struggles, how many of us would be more advanced than Marx? (The > "us" I am referring to is in particular whites who oppose racism). > > Mark L. said: > I have no idea what this means. Can you clarify, please > > > Ken Hiebert replies: > Thanks for giving me the chance to express myself more clearly. > > Marx was highly intelligent and a humanist, but this was not enough to > free him from racist ideas. The generations that came after him were > exposed to anti-racist and anti-colonialist struggles. These struggles > helped the later generations to free themselves of racist ideas. So, if we > are more advanced than Marx on racism, it is not because we are morally or > intellectually superior. (Not that anyone was suggesting that}. > > Revolutionaries working in unions have been confronted with a workforce > divided by race and ethnicity and have had to develop a response to that. > I don't know if Marx had that experience in the union movement of his day. > > I look at my own history of ignorance and how I overcame it. When I was a > child I would sometimes hear the expression "to jew someone down," meaning > to haggle or to drive a hard bargain. I remember clearly that i used this > expression one day in the classroom and my teacher challenged me on it. I > had used the expression as thoughtlessly as you might say "to gyp someone." > i wonder how long I might have gone on using that expression if my teacher > had not challenged me. > > I remember as well being at university and standing looking at a plaque > that reported the number of women and men in the Arts department. Men out > numbered women about 2 to 1. It didn't dawn on me that there was anything > wrong with this (aside from the difficulty in dating). This was 1966. It > was a few more years before I was influenced by the women's liberation > movement. Without the women's movement would I have advanced at all in my > thinking? > > ken h > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/gulfmann%40gmail.com > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ken H. said: If we can pride ourselves on being more advanced today, don't we owe this to the struggles of those who have fought racist oppression? In the absence of such struggles, how many of us would be more advanced than Marx? (The "us" I am referring to is in particular whites who oppose racism). Mark L. said: I have no idea what this means. Can you clarify, please Ken Hiebert replies: Thanks for giving me the chance to express myself more clearly. Marx was highly intelligent and a humanist, but this was not enough to free him from racist ideas. The generations that came after him were exposed to anti-racist and anti-colonialist struggles. These struggles helped the later generations to free themselves of racist ideas. So, if we are more advanced than Marx on racism, it is not because we are morally or intellectually superior. (Not that anyone was suggesting that}. Revolutionaries working in unions have been confronted with a workforce divided by race and ethnicity and have had to develop a response to that. I don't know if Marx had that experience in the union movement of his day. I look at my own history of ignorance and how I overcame it. When I was a child I would sometimes hear the expression "to jew someone down," meaning to haggle or to drive a hard bargain. I remember clearly that i used this expression one day in the classroom and my teacher challenged me on it. I had used the expression as thoughtlessly as you might say "to gyp someone." i wonder how long I might have gone on using that expression if my teacher had not challenged me. I remember as well being at university and standing looking at a plaque that reported the number of women and men in the Arts department. Men out numbered women about 2 to 1. It didn't dawn on me that there was anything wrong with this (aside from the difficulty in dating). This was 1966. It was a few more years before I was influenced by the women's liberation movement. Without the women's movement would I have advanced at all in my thinking? ken h Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > Of course we should be honest and up-front about any of Marx's failings (his > personal treatment of his wife has always stuck in my craw, and in general he > seems to have been a pretty miserable bastard). Perhaps I haven't read the right biographies, but the ones I've seen argue that Marx had a particularly close and warm relationship with Jenny and his children, who adored him. This includes Mary Gabriel's recent book, Love and Capital. This despite serious family problems of debt, ill health and the pressure of Marx's writing and political work. Glenn Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Of course we should be honest and up-front about any of Marx's failings (his personal treatment of his wife has always stuck in my craw, and in general he seems to have been a pretty miserable bastard). And I'm perfectly willing to accept the obvious interpretation (i.e., he didn't like LaSalle and used a racist (though kind of non-sensical) epithet in private correspondence, indicating a retrograde attitude on race)--if the evidence adds up. But we should be careful to draw too much from this, especially as others have pointed out, that Marx was particularly annoyed with LaSalle's lack of support for the North in the US Civil War. Add in the fact that Marx was ethnically Jewish and dark-complexioned (called "the Moor" by his friends and family), and that he's using the English phrase in another language in private correspondence a century and a half ago, and things get tenuous pretty fast. Quite simply, we don't know the context. Perhaps this phrase had a particular popular usage in Germany (or France or England). Perhaps LaSalle had called Marx that in person and Marx was turning it around? Perhaps this is an example of the "in-crowd" phenomenon (say, if they had both been called that by others and appropriated the name in casual conversation). Verbal nuances are hard enough to decode when we know all these things. It's understandable that people would perform a Google search of Marx's works for offensive terms. And of course we should be aware of it (and not apologize or justify or be defensive when people on the left say or do retrograde things). But we should also be aware of our limited ability to draw any solid conclusions from such scant evidence (particularly when there's overwhelming evidence of Marx's anti-racism). my two bits. soli, DCQ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Garibaldi got stabbed in the back by those guys so often that he must have been a psychological pin cushion. In the end, though, he supported the Paris, endorsed the International, and became something of a godfather of the socialist movement. i'd certainly claim him as one of ours . . . despite the cowboy outfit. -) ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:34 PM, Mark Lause wrote: ...Engels served under Willich and he and Marx--between the lines-- were clearly enamoured of Garibaldi. His 1860 landing in Sicily of the "Thousand" that grew as it advanced through the countryside to a point where it could take Palermo and help detonate a revival of the national movement across Italy... Willich failed totally, but Garibaldi succeeded. The Bavarian republic was isolated. Garibaldi, however sincere, had massive ruling- class backing from Cavour (the "Bismarck" of Savoy and its king Vittorio Emmanuele). Bribery played a major role in the military collapse of the Bourbon Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. A chapter of Umberto Eco's wonderful novel *The Prague Cemetery* is revelatory about this whole episode. Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I have no idea what this means. Can you clarify, please On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Ken Hiebert wrote: > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > My thanks to those who have brought this to our attention. I'd rather find > out about this on this list than be surprised by this in a public meeting. > > If we can pride ourselves on being more advanced today, don't we owe this to > the struggles of those who have fought racist oppression? In the absence of > such struggles, how many of us would be more advanced than Marx? (The "us" I > am referring to is in particular whites who oppose racism). > > ken h > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/markalause%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It's a great subject, Andrew, though the circumstances are so different today, it's hardly comparable. In Marx's day, the armed militaries that propped up those top-heavy regimes were much smaller than we can imagine. And building a military force that could confront and defeat them was just within reach. Generally Marx and Engels snorted and snickered about such things, particularly when their comrades like August Willich were doing such things in Baden in 1849. Then again, though, Engels served under Willich and he and Marx--between the lines--were clearly enamoured of Garibaldi. His 1860 landing in Sicily of the "Thousand" that grew as it advanced through the countryside to a point where it could take Palermo and help detonate a revival of the national movement across Italy. Then, too, we should remember the importance of the legions of black soldiers in the American Civil War, who changed its course and character. Moreover, both Baden in 1849 and in Sicily in 1860 had International Legions. The concept probably survived into the twentieth century through things like the International Brigades in Spain or the Irish Republican Army, though the history of both of these underscore the outdated nature of the strategy today. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My thanks to those who have brought this to our attention. I'd rather find out about this on this list than be surprised by this in a public meeting. If we can pride ourselves on being more advanced today, don't we owe this to the struggles of those who have fought racist oppression? In the absence of such struggles, how many of us would be more advanced than Marx? (The "us" I am referring to is in particular whites who oppose racism). ken h Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == In keeping with the overall honesty of "Revolution in the Air", Max Elbaum admits that the New Communist Movement held fairly retrograde ideas on same-sexers: "The first wave of party builders also foundered in addressing the oppression of gay men and lesbians. Doctrinally, most of the movement simply ignored this issue, though the Guardian did decide by 1971 that it was appropriate to include opposition to discrimination against gays under the broad rubric of defending democratic rights. But whatever was formally said or not said, for the most part the movement's attitude toward homosexuality and the gay movement was decidedly negative. Fundamentally, most Marxist-Leninists shared the homophobia prevalent in society as a whole, and on the issue of gay rights they surrendered to prejudice instead of analyzing and opposing it." While most of the left, including these Maoists, eventually superseded this kind of backwardness, a few individuals and sects continue to bash gays. Among them is a micro-sect in Germany called Neue Einheit that was a continuing nuisance in the dark ages of Marxism on the Internet. When their gay-baiting reared its ugly head on an email list initiated by Mark Jones called Leninist-International, lines were drawn over whether homophobia was compatible with Marxism. Those who felt that homophobia was okay eventually launched an email list called Marxism-Leninism that is singularly meatheaded on all sorts of questions, including gay liberation. Neue Einheit's specialty is dredging through the writings of well-known leaders and thinkers in the Marxist movement in order to find some particularly nasty crack against gays. (http://www.neue-einheit.com/english/homoeng.htm) It is not surprising that you could find something like this in Engels's private correspondence since he was a product of the Victorian era despite his advanced thinking on the need for socialism. (It should be pointed out that Marx and Engels often said crude things in their private correspondence that reflected sexist or racial prejudices. In a talk at NYC's Brecht Forum a couple of years ago, Tariq Ali explained that since telephones were not available in those days, people could only rely on letters for personal communications. Whether Marx or Engels could anticipate that their future enemies would mine their private correspondence for gaffes is open to question. This includes a number of black nationalists who tried to prove that Marx's use of the term 'nigger' rules out historical materialism as a tool for black liberation. It also includes people like Neue Einheit who use exactly the same kinds of lapse to shore up their own reactionary prejudices in *the name of Marxism*.) full: http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/sex_gender/engels_homophobia.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == In his brilliant book Marx at the Margins, author Kevin Anderson writes: "In his often-cited letter, Marx also makes some very problematic personal remarks, referring to 'the Jewish nigger Lassalle' (der judische Nigger Lassalle) and writing as well that 'the impertinence of the fellow is also niggerlike" (niggerhaft) (MECW 41, 389, 390). That Marx was capable of making such racist remarks in private should not obscure the fact that a major part of what had made him so angry with Lassalle was the latter's indifference to the Civil War and the issues of slavery and racism in America." (page 266, note 22) Marx wrote a great deal about the Civil War and the abolitionist cause, which he avidly supported. In an 1862 letter to Engels on the conduct of Northern military strategy, Marx predicted: "The North will finally wage war seriously, adopt revolutionary methods, and overthrow the domination of the border state statement. A single nigger-regiment would have a remarkable effect on Southern nerves …." Anderson comments: "In the block quote above, the term "nigger-regiment" is written in English in the middle of a German sentence. This is an instance of Marx using what today would be considered a very racist phrase to make an equally strong anti-racist point. Ironically, it is here that Marx makes his strongest case to date on the issue of Black troops, not only for military reasons, but also for political and psychological ones." Anderson notes that in the same month Marx wrote the letter quoted above, he also "publishes several critiques of Lincoln's failure to abolish slavery." In short, Marx consistently took anti-racist positions, despite his unfortunate use of contemporary racist terms. Glenn Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == "As quoted in William Otto Henderson (1989). Marx And Engels And The English Workers: And Other Essays, Psychology Press, ISBN" There is a link to a PDF to this work but I can't copy anything out of it. Note 11 refers to a letter from Marx to Engels July 30, 1862. Note 12 refers to an 1858 letter by Jenny Marx quoting Karl referring to Lassalle as a "Jewish nigger". On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Mark Lause wrote: > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Anybody can put anything in Wiki. What's the citation on thjis? > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Anybody can put anything in Wiki. What's the citation on thjis? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Marx's Racist Put-Down of Lassalle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This from Wikipedia's article on Ferdinand Lassalle: "In the 1850s and '60s, Karl Marx was in regular contact with Lassalle. Their relationship was superficially cordial, and Marx asked for a loan of £30. Yet in letters to Friedrich Engels, Marx made disparaging and racist comments about Lassalle, speculating that his dark complexion and coarse hair were evidence that 'he is descendant from the negroes who joined in the flight of Moses from Egypt (unless his mother or grandmother on the father’s side was crossed with a nigger)' and declaring that 'the importunity of the fellow is also niggerlike.' Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
