Re: [Marxism] More on the 'Anti-German' Idiocy

[Einde O'Callaghan]

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On 09.12.2012 22:14, Angelus Novus wrote:

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Paul Flewers wrote:


still lurks around the German left in respect of the prevalence of
pro-Zionism


Yeah, again, this is nothing that originated with the Anti-Germans.  You can 
consult Ulrike Meinhof's earliest writings to see that it was fairly 
uncontroversial that the pre-67 New Left in Germany was basically supportive of 
Israel.  In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Noam Chomsky writes in _The Fateful 
Triangle_ that pre-67, pro-Israel sentiment was fairly widespread in the New 
Left internationally.

Then there were debates around the time of the first Intifada in the mid-80s concerning the legacy 
of anti-Semitism in the extra-parliamentary left of the 70s, which is largely unknown to people who 
aren't familiar with the history of the post-war (West-)German left.  Incidents like the Tupamaros 
West Berlin planning to bomb the Jewish Community Center, or one part of the Revolutionary Cells 
engaging in a separation of hostages into "Jewish" and "non-Jewish" during an 
Air France hijacking.

All of this is completely unfamiliar to most British and American leftists, since in the 
British and American context, "anti-Semitism" is usually just a cudgel wielded 
to silence criticism of Israel, whereas in the German left of the 1970s and early 80s, 
there were actually very real, very ugly manifestations of anti-Semitism, and the 
autonomist milieu of the 80s and early 90s was engaged in a critical process of 
processing those experiences.

It gives too much credit to the Anti-Germans to assume they had much of anything to do with it.  All they 
ever did was introduced obfuscatory jargon and idiotic "theory" into the discussion, like the 
completely bananas notion of any criticism of finance being a "structural anti-Semitism" (for a 
good critique of this bonkers notion, see Gerhard Hanloser's piece here: 

 )

All I can say is that the arguments I've encountered again and again 
both in the Antifa and in and around DIE LINKE within the former GDR 
aren't a re-hash of the arguments in the West German left during the 
1970s or 1980s but more or less watered-down versions of the hardline 
anti-German arguments developed around Jungle World and Bahamas.



which has a grip in the Left Party. He added that a move to expel the
hard-line pro-Zionists from the Left Party was defeated


It's been a while since I took a look at the party program, but I'm fairly 
certain the position on Israel and Palestine is standard peace movement 
boilerplate, support for the rights of both peoples to live in peace and 
security, a full withdrawal of Israel to the 67 borders and compliance with UN 
resolutions, dismantling of all settlements, etc.  Basically, what folks like 
Chomsky and Finkelstein demand.  This is more or less the consensus position.

You're more or less right about the party programme, it's more or less 
the same as the consensus position within the German peace movement. But 
sections of the FDS (Realos) - going beyond the "anti-German" spectrum - 
wanted to include a statement defending "Israel's right to exist" and 
they haven't gone away - but this probably had more to do with their 
desire to be accepted as a possible coalition partner by the SPD and the 
Greens than with any question of principle. And the attacks by some not 
unimportant party members on Inge Höger, a Bundestag member who was on 
the Mavi Marmara when it was stormed by Israeli commandos, were 
particularly vicious.


Einde O'Callaghan


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Re: [Marxism] More on the 'Anti-German' Idiocy

[Angelus Novus]

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Paul Flewers wrote:

> still lurks around the German left in respect of the prevalence of 
> pro-Zionism

Yeah, again, this is nothing that originated with the Anti-Germans.  You can 
consult Ulrike Meinhof's earliest writings to see that it was fairly 
uncontroversial that the pre-67 New Left in Germany was basically supportive of 
Israel.  In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Noam Chomsky writes in _The Fateful 
Triangle_ that pre-67, pro-Israel sentiment was fairly widespread in the New 
Left internationally.

Then there were debates around the time of the first Intifada in the mid-80s 
concerning the legacy of anti-Semitism in the extra-parliamentary left of the 
70s, which is largely unknown to people who aren't familiar with the history of 
the post-war (West-)German left.  Incidents like the Tupamaros West Berlin 
planning to bomb the Jewish Community Center, or one part of the Revolutionary 
Cells engaging in a separation of hostages into "Jewish" and "non-Jewish" 
during an Air France hijacking.

All of this is completely unfamiliar to most British and American leftists, 
since in the British and American context, "anti-Semitism" is usually just a 
cudgel wielded to silence criticism of Israel, whereas in the German left of 
the 1970s and early 80s, there were actually very real, very ugly 
manifestations of anti-Semitism, and the autonomist milieu of the 80s and early 
90s was engaged in a critical process of processing those experiences.

It gives too much credit to the Anti-Germans to assume they had much of 
anything to do with it.  All they ever did was introduced obfuscatory jargon 
and idiotic "theory" into the discussion, like the completely bananas notion of 
any criticism of finance being a "structural anti-Semitism" (for a good 
critique of this bonkers notion, see Gerhard Hanloser's piece here: 

 )

> which has a grip in the Left Party. He added that a move to expel the 
> hard-line pro-Zionists from the Left Party was defeated

It's been a while since I took a look at the party program, but I'm fairly 
certain the position on Israel and Palestine is standard peace movement 
boilerplate, support for the rights of both peoples to live in peace and 
security, a full withdrawal of Israel to the 67 borders and compliance with UN 
resolutions, dismantling of all settlements, etc.  Basically, what folks like 
Chomsky and Finkelstein demand.  This is more or less the consensus position.




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[Marxism] More on the 'Anti-German' Idiocy

[Paul Flewers]

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Re comments by Angelus and Einde on the Anti-Germans, I was talking
yesterday to Ben Lewis of the CPGB/Weekly Worker about them, and whilst he
agreed that the Anti-Germans have drifted away from any commitment to
left-wing politics, he feels that their baleful influence still lurks
around the German left in respect of the prevalence of pro-Zionism, which
has a grip in the Left Party. He added that a move to expel the hard-line
pro-Zionists from the Left Party was defeated, not least through an appeal
to the legacy of Rosa Luxemburg, on the grounds that one must not deal
forcibly with oppositional views. As Ben is not on this list, I shall pass
to him the correspondence here, particularly Angelus' second posting in
which he says that the pro-Zionism within the German left is not primarily
the work of the Anti-Germans.

Paul F

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Re: [Marxism] More on the 'Anti-German' Idiocy

[mazdak]

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This is my first post and I try to be clear: 

Just a thought on Anti-Germans: I think that the same phenomenon takes place in 
different shapes in many places around the world. Or perhaps I am wrong to 
generalize. 

There are people in China who call themselves Maoists or new Maoists and 
present a strange blend of chauvinism and some elements from Mao's politics, 
there is this semi-gangster structure called communist party in Moscow that 
reclaims Stalin and collaborates with a faction of oligarchy. And some of those 
"trendy" post-structuralisms, won't they sooner or later pave the way for an 
ethnic or gender-based rehabilitation of a culturalist type of racism?

To make it clear, I think that anti-Geman stuff, dead or alive, is something in 
need of better analysis than what was on the site of British Communist party: 
National Socialists started their carrier by calling themselves socialists. 
What made that maneuver possible or imaginable for some people? Something close 
to those mechanisms but not entirely in the same order of things, is at work 
now again.
 
On 8 Dec 2012, at 01:21, Angelus Novus wrote:
> 
> I maintain: The Anti-Germans are dead.  For some it was a transitory stop on 
> the way to shitty politics (Neo-Conservatism or right-wing Social Democracy), 
> others abandoned it for better politics (the milieu around Junge Linke or ums 
> Ganze), but in its post-2001 manifestation, it was a short-lived phenomenon.
> 


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Re: [Marxism] More on the 'Anti-German' Idiocy

[Angelus Novus]

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Einde wrote:

> and within DIE LINKE and particularly it's youth group the anti-Germans 
> around BAK Shalom are still active in attempting to witchhunt 
> anti-Zionists in the party.

See, I think this dilutes the term to the point of making it conceptually 
meaningless.

BAK Shalom are essentially right-wing social democrats, similar to the rotten 
milieu in the United States around SDUSA, or Albert Shanker, the American 
Federation of Teachers, or Max Shachtman's later years. Or, in fact, large 
swathes of the right-wing of the AFL bureaucracy in general. In other words, 
they occupy the space where pro-imperialist Social Democracy blends into 
Neo-Conservatism.  Unwavering commitment to Zionism has always been 
characteristic of this wing of the social democratic and labor bureaucreacy.

A couple of figures in BAK Shalom, like Sebastian Vogt (is he even still in DIE 
LINKE?) come out of the rotten Leipzig milieu, but they quickly seemed to 
realize that any rhetorical affirmations of "communism" stood in the way of 
their realpolitik commitments to Zionism.

Others, like Bahamas, abandoned any tenuous contact with the left at all and 
have retreated into a sort of weird blend of cultural pessimism and affirmation 
of "Western liberal values".  They don't even like the label "Anti-German" 
anymore, since it interferes with their attempts to make out potential 
Pro-Israel allies among the likes of the CSU or Joseph Ratzinger/Pope Benedict 
XVI.  They've long since abandoned any commitment, even rhetorical, to opposing 
"Germany" or some perceived German national collective.  They have basically 
adopted completely bog standard Neo-Conservative politics.

That's why the attempts by Platypus to make out the Anti-German milieu as some 
sort of interesting political novelty is such a joke.  The original 
anti-national movement of the 1990s is an interesting object of historical 
inquiry, but the "Anti-German" movement that emerged in the brief window 
between Second Intifada-Afghanistan/Iraq wars - Gaza/Lebanon wars was basically 
just a transitional phase for people leaving the left and becoming right-wing.  
The momentary superficial adoption of Adorno phrase-mongering was just the 
particular German manifestation of this neo-conservative transformation (just 
like absurd Trotsky and Orwell posturings were the mode of expression of the 
Hitchens and Eustonite goofballs).

> Katja Kipping, one of the party chairpersons, is strongly influenced by > the 
> anti-German milieu

Again, I think you're using the term in an inflated sense to basically mean 
"soft on/supportive of Israel", but that was never a position unique to the 
Anti-Germans.  It's a peculiar idiosyncrasy of the (West-)German left that goes 
all the way back to Ulrike Meinhof's pre-RAF writings, not to mention the 
debates within the Autonomist milieu in the 1980s concerning the legacy of the 
uglier manifestations of Palestinian solidarity in Germany (see the text by the 
Revolutionary Cells, "Gerd Albertus is dead", or various writings by the 
Autonome L.U.P.U.S. Gruppe).

Kipping seems primarily influenced by a lot of trendy Post-Structuralist and 
Queer Theory, and like many German leftists, she's got a wishy-washy position 
on Israel that wouldn't fly in any context outside of Germany.  I think it's a 
huge stretch to consider her in any way "Anti-German."

I maintain: The Anti-Germans are dead.  For some it was a transitory stop on 
the way to shitty politics (Neo-Conservatism or right-wing Social Democracy), 
others abandoned it for better politics (the milieu around Junge Linke or ums 
Ganze), but in its post-2001 manifestation, it was a short-lived phenomenon.




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Re: [Marxism] More on the 'Anti-German' Idiocy

[Einde O'Callaghan]

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On 07.12.2012 17:15, Angelus Novus wrote:


Honestly, what decade is the Weekly Worker living in?  If I were cynical I'd 
suspect they were conspiring with the Playtpus sect to pretend that the 
Anti-Germans were still relevant, or even that such a thing still exists.

The whole "Anti-German" thing is deader than doornail.  Has been since around 
2006.

I don't know about that. There are still far too many people running 
around with American and Israeli flags on anti-fascist demos denouncing 
people wearing Palestinian scarves (kheffiyehs) - and within DIE LINKE 
and particularly it's youth group the anti-Germans around BAK Shalom are 
still active in attempting to witchhunt anti-Zionists in the party.


Some of those within DIE LINKE may be "soft" anti-Germans but they're 
still a pain in the arse and Katja Kipping, one of the party 
chairpersons, is strongly influenced by the anti-German milieu.


Einde O'Callaghan



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Re: [Marxism] More on the 'Anti-German' Idiocy

[Angelus Novus]

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Honestly, what decade is the Weekly Worker living in?  If I were cynical I'd 
suspect they were conspiring with the Playtpus sect to pretend that the 
Anti-Germans were still relevant, or even that such a thing still exists.

The whole "Anti-German" thing is deader than doornail.  Has been since around 
2006. 

 The hardcore Anti-Germans around Bahamas and similar formations no longer 
consider themselves "communists" or even "Anti-Germans" anymore and instead are 
just openly neo-conservative reactionaries.

What used to be considered the "softcore" Anti-German milieu has abandoned the 
idiotic theoretical posture entirely, many having moved on to a sort of general 
anti-nationalism inspired by the journal Gegenstandpunkt (which was always 
hostile to the "Anti-Germans").

Bahamas made a rather public show a few years ago of disclaiming any 
pretensions to being communists or in any way a part of the left, and even 
decided that the label "Anti-German" was no longer any kind of indication of 
their politics (this is the magazine, by the way, that engaged in apologetics 
for the EDL).

Susann Witt-Stahl is a decent journalist, so I'm not sure why she's indulging 
in this weird alarmist sensationalism for an English-speaking audience, 
pretending that a marginal sect has any kind of influence in the left.

What *is* true to some extent is that the German left as a whole, even the 
radical left, has a somewhat indulgent position toward Israel that would 
probably shock most leftists from Anglophone countries, but that doesn't have 
anything to do with the "Anti-Germans."  You can kind that sort of thing going 
all the way back to the extra-parliamentary milieu of the 1980s.  

But the Anti-German tendency belongs to an era when the iPod was considered a 
bold new technological innovation, Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films 
still topped the box office charts, and George W. Bush still occupied the White 
House.  

Usually it's only the Platypus cult who try to rehabilitate the Anti-Germans 
and assert their supposed relevance.  How weird to see their critics doing the 
same.





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