Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2014-03-09, at 12:19 AM, Clay Claiborne wrote: *UPDATED 8 Mar 2014*: The *Toronto Star* reports http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/03/07/the_fog_of_war_russianstyle.html that Olga Bogomolets says that the reported conversation with Urmas Paet never happened... Which sounds like she agrees with me that a doctor couldn't know that victims were shot by the same sniper just by examining the wounds. And actually, I was wondering if the cops and activists would have been treated by the same doctors. Now that question is answered. So now the ball is in Paet's court. He now needs to say where the story came from. Ashton may be the headliner, but she was just the patsy, all she did was listen while Paet told the tale that made the tape that then got leaked. I don't give the same credence you do to the line being peddled by the Ukrainian government - that the sniper incident was a Putin propaganda ploy - nor to the recanted statements of Dr. Bogomolets, which damaged the government she supports and quite possibly her own career when they were made public. Now the Ukrainian health minister quoted below spins the yarn further with the suggestion that the Russian objective was to topple Yanukovych, in the full knowledge it would bring the opposition to power. Since the Ukrainian government is very unlikely to permit a full and impartial investigation to support its fantastic claims, we might as well just leave it at that. Russia, Ukraine feud over sniper carnage By Mike Eckel Associated Press March 8 2104 KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — One of the biggest mysteries hanging over the protest mayhem that drove Ukraine's president from power: Who was behind the snipers who sowed death and terror in Kiev? That riddle has become the latest flashpoint of feuding over Ukraine — with the nation's fledgling government and the Kremlin giving starkly different interpretations of events that could either undermine or bolster the legitimacy of the new rulers. Ukrainian authorities are investigating the Feb. 18-20 bloodbath, and they have shifted their focus from ousted President Viktor Yanukovych's government to Vladimir Putin's Russia — pursuing the theory that the Kremlin was intent on sowing mayhem as a pretext for military incursion. Russia suggests that the snipers were organized by opposition leaders trying to whip up local and international outrage against the government. The government's new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullet wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych. I think it wasn't just a part of the old regime that (plotted the provocation), but it was also the work of Russian special forces who served and maintained the ideology of the (old) regime, Health Minister Oleh Musiy said. Putin has pushed the idea that the sniper shootings were ordered by opposition leaders, while Kremlin officials have pointed to a recording of a leaked phone call between Estonia's foreign minister and the European Union's foreign policy chief as evidence to back up that version. This much is known: Snipers firing powerful rifles from rooftops and windows shot scores of people in the heart of Kiev. Some victims were opposition protesters, but many were civilian bystanders clearly not involved in the clashes. Among the dead were medics, as well as police officers. A majority of the more than 100 people who died in the violence were shot by snipers; hundreds were also injured by the gunfire and other street fighting. On Tuesday, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov signaled that investigators may be turning their attention away from Ukrainian responsibility. I can say only one thing: the key factor in this uprising, that spilled blood in Kiev and that turned the country upside down and shocked it, was a third force, Avakov was quoted as saying by Interfax. And this force was not Ukrainian. The next day, Prosecutor General Oleh Makhntisky said officials have found sniper bullet casings on the National Bank building a few hundred yards up the hill from Maidan, the square that became the center and the symbol of the anti-government protests. He said investigators have confirmed snipers also fired from the Hotel Ukraine, directly on the square, and the House of Chimeras, an official residence next to the presidential administration building. Deputy Interior Minister Mykola Velichkovych told AP that commanders of sniper units overseen by the Berkut police force and other Interior Ministry subdivisions
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == There were no recanted statements by Dr. Bogomolets. To recant is to deny the truth of what one has previously said or written was the truth. In both reports previoulsy posted here, Dr. Bogomolets said that the accusations of sniping by protesters attributed to her were falsification. It would be accurate to say Dr. Bogomolets repudiated the lies attributed to her. For a full exposition of the methodology employed to attribute the lies to Dr. Bogomolets, the following reference may be useful. http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1937/ssf/ T -Original Message- From: Marv Gandall marvga...@gmail.com Sent: Mar 9, 2014 10:29 AM To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story I don't give the same credence you do to the line being peddled by the Ukrainian government - that the sniper incident was a Putin propaganda ploy - nor to the recanted statements of Dr. Bogomolets, which damaged the government she supports and quite possibly her own career when they were made public. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Am 09.03.2014 16:49, schrieb T: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == There were no recanted statements by Dr. Bogomolets. To recant is to deny the truth of what one has previously said or written was the truth. In both reports previoulsy posted here, Dr. Bogomolets said that the accusations of sniping by protesters attributed to her were falsification. It would be accurate to say Dr. Bogomolets repudiated the lies attributed to her. For a full exposition of the methodology employed to attribute the lies to Dr. Bogomolets, the following reference may be useful. http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1937/ssf/ I must say that the same thought crossed my mind when I read the word recant after reading the doctor's statement. I sometimes wonder where some people's principles disappear to when there is a conflict between the West and Russia. It seems that far too many people on the left believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend is some sort of Marxist axiom! Einde O'Callaghan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Marv Gandall said: Since the Ukrainian government is very unlikely to permit a full and impartial investigation to support its fantastic claims, we might as well just leave it at that. Ken Hiebert replies: We shouldn't start with confidence in the truthfulness of any of the parties to this conflict. If you are suggesting that our small forces may not have the resources to dig out the truth, then you may be right. But I am not satisfied to say that we simply don't know. Is there no force that we can call upon to investigate the incident? The Permanent People's Tribunal, for example? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I also recall that some police on the Maidan were starting to defect to the protesters. What was the timing relationship between than and cops being shot by snipers. Might the old regime have an interest in shooting some cops to keep them against the protesters? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 3/8/14 12:39 AM, Clay Claiborne wrote: What gets left out of most reports on this /sensational/ story is that in the leaked conversation, Estonia Foreign Minister*Urmas Paet* is telling European Union foreign policy chief*Catherine Ashton* what*Olga Bogomolets* told him. He is not telling Ashton what he knows to be fact; he is telling her a rumor he was told by an activist doctor who treated some of the sniper victims. It would seem that if the story came from an activist on the side of the protests that it would have even more merit. Just to repeat, I think that those of us who support the right of Ukrainians to determine their own destiny have every interest in a thorough-going investigation. Of course, in the current balance of forces, that is not likely to happen. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I agree with Louis that we should pursue this story and do our best to get to the truth. All the more so since Socialist Action (US) takes the story seriously. http://socialistaction.org/2014/03/7822/ One question that needs to be asked is where was the (previous) Ukrainian government during these events? What did they say in response to the shootings? An alert, politically astute government would have rushed to the media to denounce the shootings and to say they were sure it was not their own forces who had carried them out. Further, they might have called for a third force to join them in investigating the killings. The Red Cross? The Vatican? The African National Congress? Noam Chomsky? Jimmy Carter? The Non-Aligned Movement? The Permanent People's Tribunal? No doubt there are even better suggestions. If the tactic of sending in snipers to shoot demonstrators and frame the government is this effective, we should be thankful it has not been used against the government of Venezuela. We might also ask why it was used in the Ukraine rather than Venezuela. ken h Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mar 8, 2014, at 12:39 AM, Clay Claiborne clayc...@gmail.com wrote: What gets left out of most reports on this /sensational/ story is that in the leaked conversation, Estonia Foreign Minister *Urmas Paet* is telling European Union foreign policy chief *Catherine Ashton* what *Olga Bogomolets* told him. He is not telling Ashton what he knows to be fact; he is telling her a rumor he was told by an activist doctor who treated some of the sniper victims. (Paet: /There is this lady called Olga.../ [2:27 on tape]) All those who take this story as truth are taking the word of this one woman and all those who peddle this story without making that clear are engaged in a Putin propaganda effort. Dismissing Paet's concerns, anxiously expressed in confidence to Ashton, as a sensational story and a Putin propaganda effort lacking any real foundation sounds very much like special pleading for the new Ukrainian regime. As I understand it, the regime has not issued a denial, which would be commonplace. Paet was not idly chatting with Ashton about a rumor he heard from a Maidan activist, as you suggest. By his own admission, he considered the rumour to be credible in the context of a stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers it was...somebody from the new coalition and that it's really disturbing that now the new coalition says that they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. This was said to Ashton in confidence by a resolutely pro-Western supporter of the new government. See: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet You bend the stick back way too far in your support of the heterogenous opposition movements to Assad and Putin, and don't seem to much distinguish between the left and right wing forces which compose them. Worse, you imfer that any critical approach to these contradictory movements makes one an apologist for the Syrian and Russian governments. In truth, there are apologists on both sides, yourself included. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 03/08/2014 02:57 PM, Sebastian Clare wrote: Well, it *was *used in Venezuela - in April of 2002. Indeed, and this was powerfully presented in The Revolution Will Not Be Televised documentary. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Sebastian Clare said: Well, it *was *used in Venezuela - in April of 2002. During two confrontational marches - one Chavista, one anti-Chavista - snipers who were almost certainly agents provocateurs fired on the demonstrators. The snipers themselves did not appear to discern between pro- and anti-Chavez individuals, and although members of the crowd fired back (gun ownership in Venezuela is apparently insanely high) there is no question that the shooting was initiated by the unseen gunmen. The police and army responded to the shots, but as far as I know it has never been revealed who those shooters were or indeed if they escaped undetected. In any event, the violence was the catalyst for the (thankfully abortive) Coup against Chavez. Now that he is gone, it looks like the Opposition are willing to try again against his successor... Ken Hiebert responds: Thank you for this reminder. Do you have any recollection of what the Venezuelan government said about this at the time? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 03/08/2014 10:19 AM, Marv Gandall wrote: Dismissing Paet's concerns, anxiously expressed in confidence to Ashton, as a sensational story and a Putin propaganda effort lacking any real foundation sounds very much like *UPDATED 8 Mar 2014*: The *Toronto Star* reports http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/03/07/the_fog_of_war_russianstyle.html that Olga Bogomolets says that the reported conversation with Urmas Paet never happened: The Olga in question was identified by Russian media as Olga Bogomolets, a Ukrainian doctor who worked throughout the clashes to treat wounded. Told of the tape, however, Bogomolets denied having any such conversation. She said she has no such evidence as she was never in a position to compare wounds. /During the entire confrontation in Kyiv, I did not have access to law enforcement officers who died, and therefore I could not give any information on the nature of the injuries,/ she told Ukrainska Pravda. /I'm a doctor, not a forensic medical examiner to give this kind of assessment./ Which sounds like she agrees with me that a doctor couldn't know that victims were shot by the same sniper just by examining the wounds. And actually, I was wondering if the cops and activists would have been treated by the same doctors. Now that question is answered. So now the ball is in Paet's court. He now needs to say where the story came from. Ashton may be the headliner, but she was just the patsy, all she did was listen while Paet told the tale that made the tape that then got leaked. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Ukraine: The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The truth about the leaked Maidan sniper story http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-truth-about-leaked-maidan-sniper.html Dr. Olga Bogomolets, source of sniper story Here is the short story behind headlines like this one from *RT*: *Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape* They are based 100% on hearsay from the woman pictured on the left, Olga Bogomolets. What gets left out of most reports on this /sensational/ story is that in the leaked conversation, Estonia Foreign Minister *Urmas Paet* is telling European Union foreign policy chief *Catherine Ashton* what *Olga Bogomolets* told him. He is not telling Ashton what he knows to be fact; he is telling her a rumor he was told by an activist doctor who treated some of the sniper victims. (Paet: /There is this lady called Olga.../ [2:27 on tape]) All those who take this story as truth are taking the word of this one woman and all those who peddle this story without making that clear are engaged in a Putin propaganda effort. *More...* http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-truth-about-leaked-maidan-sniper.html* * Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at theLinux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
