Re: [Marxism] Forwarded from Nestor (a sanctimonious reply, as given)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Nestor's forwarded broadside, which includes his unfortunately far too used you-have-no–right-to-discuss… non-Marxist form of discussion, needs a response. Well, it could use a response but since Nestor really failed to make any political point, let's try to deal with the issue of Chavez (since, like Chavez himself, Nestor supports the school of It's All About Chavez) and this latest bruhahah over Chavez's deportation of a Colombian leftist to a country well known for it's sense of justice, paragon of national sovereignty and since the end of the El Salvadorean civil war, the capital of death squad democracy…Colombia. Nestor frowns on those on the list (I suppose the few who have commented on it) who dared criticize Chavez, and, by extension, Venezuela. Unless of course one wrote ones Doctoral Thesis on 19th Century German Unification and Bismarkian Law. Hey, HE raised this, not me. Let's deal with what we DON'T know…we do not, indeed, know if U.S. Imperialism threatened Venezuela with…to use Nester's hyperbole immolation. After all, Nestor did accuse those that criticize the decision to deport Joaquin Perez Becerra, a Swedish citizen formally active in the left in Colombia, to Bogota as being in the school of those that …would love it if Chavez immolated Venezuela, right? So, we don't know that. So we have to go with what we do know. Unlike the quote used by Nestor there were not 'dozens' of protestors who opposed this deportation to the Death Squad Democracy in Colombia (unless if was the very first one that went unnoticed, it seems), it was more like 300. And while it did include, as the quote noted the Bolivarian Continental Movement it also included, according to Venezuelanalysis.com: Coordinadora Simón Bolívar (CSB), the Simón Bolívar National Communal Front (FNCSB), the “Clara Zetkin” Women’s Movement, the Front for the Detained and Disappeared of the Continent, and the Revolutionary Tupamaros Movement. Also in attendance were former Venezuelan Trade Minister Eduardo Samán, current Venezuelan lawmaker Oscar Figueras Yul Yalbur, and investigative journalist Eva Golinger. [Louis, I think if any of these folks try to subscribe to the list, they should be barred from doing so. Ask Nestor's advice here…] http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6160 However, clearly, all of these VENEZUELANS forgot, perhaps deliberately, to ask Argentinian Nestor's to opine as to why these would be traitors and, international provocateurs, if they went ahead with this ac; thow they would be betraying the Revolution. Nestor would (please note, I did not use the term 'Nestor could' because I KNOW Louis would ban ME if I did that) of course, straighten them out from 3000 miles away, I'm sure. But wait! There's more! Chavez, it seems from the reports, is not only a bit touchy about all this but has really failed to explain the details of this act that clearly has a lot of people in VENEZUELA, highly pissed off, by casting Imperialist Sweden to he left of Revolutionary Venezuela, when it comes to the tradition of not sending militants into the hands of those that would kill or imprison them. He clearly by his own lack of explanation, shows that he has little regard to explain to the world movement, the reasons for this act. But wait! There's more! The mass Bolivarian trade union, the UNTE, also joined those that Nestor would condemn, it seems. They also came out against the deportation demanding *political* answers. I wonder what all those who went into exile from Colombia now think of the Venezuelan Revolution? Then again perhaps Chavez thinks all those that defend Venezuela from Imperialism are named Nestor? DW Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Forwarded from Nestor
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis Proyect wrote That is, I guess most comrades in the list would love it if Chavez immolated Venezuela to US brutal justice by giving them a pretext? What kind of a world are they living in? --- Just this kind. An answer is called for: As others have stated, my first thought when I read this message yesterday was why couldn't Chavez have given the order to return Joaquin Perez to Germany? This is done all the time, rather than having to deal with an unwelcome presence, especially if the alternative is to hand a political refugee over to his executioners in a known draconian state, where Santos the current president was the man in charge of the operation that killed Raul Reyes in Ecuador. If as he's stated, he feels that he is obligated to safeguard the sovereignty of the country and the peace of all Venezuelans by refusing entry of a subversive Colombian terrorist, then why turn him over to certain death, instead of excluding him? If, that is, he is really a political refugee as appears to be the case and not a wanted criminal, on charges that were credibly criminal within the definitions and standard of provenance guiding compliance with Interpol. Quoted Colombian sources say only that Perez, a Swedish citizen, was part of the FARC and received money from the FARC to finance the Anncol site, which publishes rebel communiques, interviews with FARC leaders and pro-insurgent editorials. Santos described Perez as the head of the international front of the FARC in Europe. In that role, he allegedly ran a website dedicated to spreading news about the group's efforts, CNN affiliate Caracol TV reported. I gave him the name and asked that he collaborate with us in his capture. He did not hesitate; it was done immediately when the plane landed, Santos said. But even then, since this was not a problem of Chavez's making, why grasp the hot iron? Who could have faulted Venezuela's ruler for refusing to take either pole of this Hobson's choice when there was a way out? The explanation to Santos would simply be, Oh, no you don't. This man is a political refugee. You'll have to deal with Germany about this. Come on, man, this is a form of political extortion. Instead of Chavez shaking his dilemma, we get this quote from Santos, so far not contradicted but affirmed by Chavez: Chavez didn't hesitate. He ordered him arrested,**and he will give him to us, Santos was quoted as saying in an interview published Monday in El Tiempo newspaper: It's another sign that Chavez is keeping his word. Not exactly conveying that he was between a rock and a hard place, as Chavez claims after seizing Joaquin Perez. On its face, this stinks. WTF? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Forwarded from Nestor
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark wrote: I'm sorry if you took offensive at my alleged obsession with Trotskyism or something. I was trying to be offensive in an entirely different way. I'm not offended. Though I will say that if Louis wants to me to avoid rambling about when I'm called a pelotudo (a stupid moron) for the nth timebecause I happen to be skeptical that a bureaucrat who used to work with a paramilitary organization which hunted down communists is to be creditedwith the clarification of the murder of yet another young communist, then...he oughta tell his buddy to get his shit together. But it's not about me. It's about stopping to pretend that it's nuanced and wise (and Marxist!) to turn the blind eye to things like:“It is impossible to achieve even this modest goal without a deal of cudgel brandishing.” –Gorojovsky and calling for broad support of the revolutionary bourgeoisie. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Forwarded from Nestor
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 3/22/11 7:41 PM, Leonardo Kosloff wrote: Not sure Gorojovsky’s distortions need any reply, they pretty much self-refute themselves (which, incidentally, is a form of “proof”). Gorojovsky is G, and I’m LK. G: “As to the Ferreyra murder (the only thing Koslof knows about Galasso is what was his stance on this issue, which paints Koslof as the ignorant sectarian he is), well, let it simply be said that” LK: Ah, we’re about out of ideas, now Goro speculates on what I know or do not know, and since his catechisms cannot for a moment come down to the level of an objective argument it follows I’m an “ignorant sectarian”. Well, being called names by someone who can only call names, doesn’t really do anything for me, guess I need more cowbell. To give Gorojovsky credit, I have not read Galasso’s ‘Peron’ but I skimmed through it (you can see it in google books), if Gorojovsky can refer me to an excerpt where Galasso approaches remotely closely the reasons for Peron’s rise, I’ll be obliged. For the most part I saw a load of quotes about what fulano and mengano said about Peron, (because haven’t you heard? the class struggle is about what people *say*). Followed by distorted narrations, cherry-picked quotes from Peron, etc. etc., curiously I couldn’t find any mention of Peronist repression against, to mention one important case, workers in Tucuman in 1949. But hey, it’s a big book, it must be good… I did read more from Galasso about how he wants to paint the 1810 revolution as led by a group of petty-fogging lawyers which surprise surprise obscures all the social transformation of the time, i.e. the penetration of capitalist relations of production to the core, which was led not by lawyers who didn’t have anything better to do with their time, but pretty bloody Jacobinists like Mariano Moreno. Is that right? I will be checked and double-checked and please pull for me. Will you pull? How many good ones and how many bad ones? Please I had nothing with him he was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fight. No business; no hangout; no friends; nothing; just what you pick up and what you need. I don't know who shot me. Don't put anyone near this check~ you might have -please do it for me. Let me get up. heh? In the olden days they waited and they waited. Please give me a shot. It is from the factory. Sure, that is a bad. Well, oh good ahead that happens for trying. I don't want harmony. I want harmony. Oh, mamma, mamma! Who give it to him? Who give it to him? Let me in the district -fire-factory that he was nowhere near. It smoldered No, no. There are only ten of us and there ten million fighting somewhere of you, so get your onions up and we will throw up the truce flag. Oh, please let me up. Please shift me. Police are here. Communistic...strike...baloney...honestly this is a habit I get; sometimes I give it and sometimes I don't. Oh, I am all in. That settles it. Are you sure? Please let me get in and eat. Let him harass himself to you and then bother you. Please don't ask me to go there. I don't want to. I still don't want him in the path. It is no use to stage a riot. The sidewalk was in trouble and the bears were in trouble and I broke it up. Please put me in that room. Please keep him in control. My gilt edged stuff and those dirty rats have tuned in. Please mother, don't tear, don't rip; that is something that shouldn't be spoken about. Please get me up, my friends. Please, look out. The shooting is a bit wild, and that kind of shooting saved a man's life. No payrolls. No wells. No coupons. That would be entirely out. Pardon me, I forgot I am plaintiff and not defendant. Look out. Look out for him. Please. He owed me money; he owes everyone money. Why can't he just pullout and give me control? Please, mother, you pick me up now. Please, you know me. No. Don't you scare me. My friends and I think I do a better job. Police are looking for you allover. Be instrumental in letting us know. They are English-men and they are a type I don't know who is best, they or us. Oh, sir, get the doll a roofing. You can play jacks and girls do that with a soft ball and do tricks with it. I take all events into consideration. No. No. And it is no. It is confused and its says no. A boy has never wept nor dashed a thousand kim. Did you hear me? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Forwarded from Nestor
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I wasn't responding to anything specific you said, because I find it incomprehensible and as irrelevant as the rantings of those people who used to howl about Pabloism. I'm sorry if you took offensive at my alleged obsession with Trotskyism or something. I was trying to be offensive in an entirely different way. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
