Re: [Marxism] Labour parties and their left oppositions
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It all reminds me of the immortal lines Big fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite them, and little fleas have lesser fleas, and so *ad infinitum.* *comradely* *Gary* On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Just as, in the imperialist countries, the ruling class requires a 'loyal > opposition' in the form of Labour parties - indeed, today LPs are generally > an integral part of capital's political establishment, not oppositional in > any sense - so Labour parties require internal loyal oppositions. > > > https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/labour-parties-and-their-left-oppositions/ > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Amazon
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * This post was partly inspired by Luko's comment on Louis's recommendation of a book to be ordered from Amazon, but I didn't want to misdirect the original thread. So anyways... We all know the working conditions at Amazon are a horror show. Same at Foxconn (the huge PC/iPhone/etc. manufacturer in China). Same at Walmart. Of course the reason each can exploit so barbarically so many so terribly with so little (as of yet) resistance is their huge size and reach - a reach however which also represents their objective socialization. The question I keep coming back to and will one day write more on is how the technical and organizational sides of that objective socialization make them ripe for the picking - i.e. how after the Revolution each will facilitate democratic self-management by workers in and across such huge institutions. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Amazon
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 1/7/16 8:55 AM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote: This post was partly inspired by Luko's comment on Louis's recommendation of a book to be ordered from Amazon, but I didn't want to misdirect the original thread. So anyways... You can also order it from the publisher: http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/H/bo20708635.html _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Syria Solidarity UK: How can ‘Stop the War’ help stop the war in Syria?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * See also the section on war and Syria here: http://socialistworker.org/2016/01/06/the-view-from-a-rise-in-scotland And NYers, see you Saturday at the protest against the siege of Madaya: https://www.facebook.com/events/1548801398778302/ Saturday, 1 pm, Times Square, 44th and 7th, NYC On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > > I was delighted to accept an invitation to attend a public meeting in > December organised by Waltham Forest Stop the War and Stand Up to Racism, > and an invitation to speak at a Stoke on Trent protest organised by > Staffordshire Stop the War. I am anti-war myself and I believe in engaging > with people. I wanted to speak to the conscience of the Stop the War > members and try to convey the voices of victims of the war in Syria. I met > many wonderful people, and I was touched by their compassion and eagerness > to campaign against wars. I have so much respect for Stop the War’s > protests against the Iraq invasion in 2003. I highly appreciate their > recent campaign to welcome refugees. > > I also have so much disappointment and disagreement regarding Stop the > War’s position on Syria. I am aware that many members of Stop the War are > perceiving the Syria war through the same lense as they saw the Iraq > invasion in 2003, as ‘an unjust imperial war.’ This is one of the main > reasons for the big clash between Stop the War and people supporting the > Syrians’ struggle for freedom, dignity, and democracy. I will present my > perspective about the Syrian revolution, which might be different to their > perspective; it is always helpful to see the other side of the story. > Acknowledging our differences can help us to find a common ground and to > work together for a just cause. The Syria war is tragic and I am writing to > the minds and hearts of peace-loving people to reflect, and to suggest > things we can do to help. > > full: > http://www.syriauk.org/2016/01/how-can-stop-war-help-stop-war-in-syria.html > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Amazon
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * on Donnerstag, 7. Januar 2016 at 15:07, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: > You can also order it from the publisher: > http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/H/bo20708635.html That's better Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt/Main, Germany http://www.mlwerke.de _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Amazon
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Google Amazon strike and many mainstream articles come up about December strikes the last few years. Also this detailed overview http://libcom.org/blog/welcome-jungle-working-struggling-amazon-warehouses-20122015 On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Einde O'Callaghan via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > On 07.01.2016 14:55, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote: > >> This post was partly inspired by Luko's comment on Louis's recommendation >> of a book to be ordered from Amazon, but I didn't want to misdirect the >> original thread. >> So anyways... >> We all know the working conditions at Amazon are a horror show. >> Same at Foxconn (the huge PC/iPhone/etc. manufacturer in China). >> Same at Walmart. >> Of course the reason each can exploit so barbarically so many so terribly >> with so little (as of yet) resistance is their huge size and reach - a >> reach however which also represents their objective socialization. >> The question I keep coming back to and will one day write more on is how >> the technical and organizational sides of that objective socialization >> make >> them ripe for the picking - i.e. how after the Revolution each will >> facilitate democratic self-management by workers in and across such huge >> institutions. >> > For those of us living in Germany there are particular reasons for > boycotting Amazon. Here there is an ongoing dispute between Amazon and the > Amazon workers' union ver.di to win a proper contract and ver.di has called > on people to boycott Amazon as a token of solidarity. > > Einde O'Callaghan > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Katha Pollitt on My Turn | LBO News from Doug Henwood
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Doug Henwood responds to Kathe Pollitt's pro-Clinton criticisms. http://lbo-news.com/2016/01/07/katha-pollitt-on-my-turn/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] One punch tragedies, racism and deaths on building sites
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * One punch tragedies, racism and deaths on building sites There was another death recently that we didn't hear much from the media about. On Tuesday a 24-year-old electrician at Dallas in Melbourne’s north was electrocuted on a building site. Not much mass media reporting, no mass outpouring of grief, no questioning why, and certainly no campaign in the media calling for tougher criminal sanctions against employers for deaths on site or for better policing of safety on building sites. ... To save lives on building sites would mean empowering workers and their unions. Defending building unions is literally a life or death matter. To read the whole article click here. http://enpassant.com.au/2016/01/08/one-punch-tragedies-racism-and-deaths-on-building-sites/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Thoughts triggered by the passing of Paul Bley | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Sad news, but very interesting thoughts, Thanks, V > > An avant-garde jazz pianist. > > http://louisproyect.org/2016/01/06/thoughts-triggered-by-the-passing-of-paul-bley/ > _ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Seymour Hersh report on Syria: White House knew US was arming Islamic State - David Duke.com | David Duke.com
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "Anti-imperialism" makes strange bedfellows. http://davidduke.com/seymour-hersh-report-syria-white-house-knew-us-arming-islamic-state/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Seymour Hersh report on Syria: White House knew US was arming Islamic State - David Duke.com | David Duke.com
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I wouldn't take this line of reasoning too far. David Duke has attached himself to just about everything, including Ralph Nader, the Atkins diet, the Presbyterian Church's divestment from Israeli occupation, at least one former Black Panther Party member running for election, Donald Trump, Ron Paul, the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory movement, Rachel Corrie and her death at the hands of Israel, Occupy Wall Street, the Tea Party, the Walt/Mearsheimer thesis on the Israel Lobby, and so forth. He is a pro at mixing his weirdo white supremacist politics with otherwise legitimate politics -- or, at least, political causes that don't necessarily even want him. - Amith On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > "Anti-imperialism" makes strange bedfellows. > > > http://davidduke.com/seymour-hersh-report-syria-white-house-knew-us-arming-islamic-state/ > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Thoughts triggered by the passing of Paul Bley | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Thanks Louis for the piece. We lost Charlie Haden a year and half ago- beginning of summer, 2014. Charlie and the Liberation Music Orchestra. Bley, Haden, Motiana generation which time is letting slip through its fingers. Thanks for remembering. S. From: Vladimiro Giacche' via Marxism To: Saman Sepehri Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Thoughts triggered by the passing of Paul Bley | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Sad news, but very interesting thoughts, Thanks, V > > An avant-garde jazz pianist. > > http://louisproyect.org/2016/01/06/thoughts-triggered-by-the-passing-of-paul-bley/ > _ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/p70volkl%40yahoo.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Seymour Hersh report on Syria: White House knew US was arming Islamic State - David Duke.com | David Duke.com
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 1/7/16 7:38 PM, A.R. G wrote: I wouldn't take this line of reasoning too far. David Duke has attached himself to just about everything, including Ralph Nader, the Atkins diet, the Presbyterian Church's divestment from Israeli occupation, at least one former Black Panther Party member running for election, Donald Trump, Ron Paul, the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory movement, Rachel Corrie and her death at the hands of Israel, Occupy Wall Street, the Tea Party, the Walt/Mearsheimer thesis on the Israel Lobby, and so forth. Except that Ahmadinejad invited Duke to Tehran but not the Presbyterians wouldn't go near him with a ten foot pole. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Thoughts triggered by the passing of Paul Bley | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 1/7/16 7:38 PM, Saman Sepehri via Marxism wrote: Thanks Louis for the piece. We lost Charlie Haden a year and half ago- beginning of summer, 2014. Charlie and the Liberation Music Orchestra. Bley, Haden, Motiana generation which time is letting slip through its fingers. Thanks for remembering. S. This comment just showed up on my blog. Totally agree on Sonny Meets Hawk. That's my favorite of Sonny's recordings from the '60s, and Bley's comping is a big part of what makes it so great. Sonny was playing his craziest shit at peak of his craziest period, I think to challenge Hawk to play something akin to the crazy shit on his earliest recordings, like the ones with Bessie, but Bley seemed able to catch any bizarre note Sonny might play and immediately come up with the perfect chord to fit it. Just a wonderful record. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] World War 2: the battle of the books
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * James Heartfield, author of the excellent Unpatriotic History of the Second World War, on the battle of the books about WW2: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2013/11/26/second-world-war-the-battle-of-the-books/ There is a link at the end to a video of Heartfield speaking on his WW2 book. Phil _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Saudi Iran tensions
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * A mate of mine had an article published in the Otago Daily Times - the Dunedin daily paper - yesterday, which folks might be interested in. http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/opinion/369024/regional-rivalry-ratcheted-notch Phil _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Seymour Hersh report on Syria: White House knew US was arming Islamic State - David Duke.com | David Duke.com
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Funny thing: Amith was trying to make one point. But the list he compiled about David Duke (whose political shifts I do not follow, believe it or not) to me makes just about the opposite point (the one Louis was trying to make regarding Syria): At 16:38 07-01-16 -0800, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: > >... David Duke has attached >himself to just about everything, [Well "everything" is an awfully big set. I think I could jot down a much longer list of issues which David Duke surely does NOT (without even checking) support at all. Obviously. Which is why it makes sense to consider exactly who is on the list and why.] > including Ralph Nader, the Atkins diet, >the Presbyterian Church's divestment from Israeli occupation, at least one >former Black Panther Party member running for election, Donald Trump, Ron >Paul, the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory movement, Rachel Corrie and her death at >the hands of Israel, Occupy Wall Street, the Tea Party, the >Walt/Mearsheimer thesis on the Israel Lobby, and so forth The problem here isn't with David Duke, who is a populist (and fascist, I believe) and attaches himself to issues on a list that was partly predictable. It is leftists who are involved in any of these themselves, if they haven't insulated themselves from, and hopefully considered their relationship in practice to, participation by the class enemy. In most cases listed it is rather clear (related to conspiracy theories for instance). In the ones related to Israel (I carefully say "Israel" and not "Palestinians" who rightists have no more regard for than other third world peoples) we have discussed in the past (hell, Amith brought it up himself as an invited topic for discussion!) the "paradox" if you will of opposition to Israel by both the left and much of the right and far-right. Briefly, I'd identify two reasons for the curious affection for Palestine by segments of the right-wing: 1) Latent or in some cases overt antisemitism, in which political power held specifically by Jews infuriates them; 2) A genuine analysis (which may be somewhat or largely true) that support to Israel by the US (or whichever Western capitalist country they claim to) causes them more harm that good. That it is a mistaken policy FROM the standpoint of ruling class interests. And I don't know which *former* Panther he supported for office, and among those on the left I can sort of see why the rhetoric of Ralph Nader might be acceptable to a populist on the right. And he may have had a positive attitude to parts of Occupy Wall Street in some temporally or geographically limited scope (I didn't hear about the cops busting him) -- that doesn't mean much. >. He is a pro at >mixing his weirdo white supremacist politics with otherwise legitimate Again, when someone encounters cognitive dissonance, they need to consider not only that the world might be acting in unexplainable ways, but that their preconceptions were a bit off. All the leftists supporting Assad need to do that. Amith's theory that he expressed once (paraphrasing) about "right-wingers who support leftist causes", similarly needs to be questioned. - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Seymour Hersh report on Syria: White House knew US was arming Islamic State - David Duke.com | David Duke.com
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Hi, I have to admit, I'm not sure what point Jeff thinks I am trying to make, or what point he is trying to make. The point is that Neo-Nazis like DD attach themselves to otherwise legitimate causes. I would bet that most (though not all) who have been approached by him have rejected any such "support". Assad and Ahmadinejad didn't, but I do not expect much from either of them. On Thursday, January 7, 2016, Jeff via Marxism wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Funny thing: Amith was trying to make one point. But the list he compiled > about David Duke (whose political shifts I do not follow, believe it or > not) to me makes just about the opposite point (the one Louis was trying to > make regarding Syria): > > At 16:38 07-01-16 -0800, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: > > > >... David Duke has attached > >himself to just about everything, > > [Well "everything" is an awfully big set. I think I could jot down a much > longer list of issues which David Duke surely does NOT (without even > checking) support at all. Obviously. Which is why it makes sense to > consider exactly who is on the list and why.] > > > including Ralph Nader, the Atkins diet, > >the Presbyterian Church's divestment from Israeli occupation, at least one > >former Black Panther Party member running for election, Donald Trump, Ron > >Paul, the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory movement, Rachel Corrie and her death at > >the hands of Israel, Occupy Wall Street, the Tea Party, the > >Walt/Mearsheimer thesis on the Israel Lobby, and so forth > > The problem here isn't with David Duke, who is a populist (and fascist, I > believe) and attaches himself to issues on a list that was partly > predictable. It is leftists who are involved in any of these themselves, if > they haven't insulated themselves from, and hopefully considered their > relationship in practice to, participation by the class enemy. In most > cases listed it is rather clear (related to conspiracy theories for > instance). In the ones related to Israel (I carefully say "Israel" and not > "Palestinians" who rightists have no more regard for than other third world > peoples) we have discussed in the past (hell, Amith brought it up himself > as an invited topic for discussion!) the "paradox" if you will of > opposition to Israel by both the left and much of the right and far-right. > Briefly, I'd identify two reasons for the curious affection for Palestine > by segments of the right-wing: 1) Latent or in some cases overt > antisemitism, in which political power held specifically by Jews infuriates > them; 2) A genuine analysis (which may be somewhat or largely true) that > support to Israel by the US (or whichever Western capitalist country they > claim to) causes them more harm that good. That it is a mistaken policy > FROM the standpoint of ruling class interests. > > And I don't know which *former* Panther he supported for office, and among > those on the left I can sort of see why the rhetoric of Ralph Nader might > be acceptable to a populist on the right. And he may have had a positive > attitude to parts of Occupy Wall Street in some temporally or > geographically limited scope (I didn't hear about the cops busting him) -- > that doesn't mean much. > > >. He is a pro at > >mixing his weirdo white supremacist politics with otherwise legitimate > > Again, when someone encounters cognitive dissonance, they need to consider > not only that the world might be acting in unexplainable ways, but that > their preconceptions were a bit off. All the leftists supporting Assad need > to do that. Amith's theory that he expressed once (paraphrasing) about > "right-wingers who support leftist causes", similarly needs to be > questioned. > > - Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > -- - Amith _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Seymour Hersh report on Syria: White House knew US was arming Islamic State - David Duke.com | David Duke.com
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Also, by "legitimate" I do not mean left. I mean non-Nazi. I'd agree that leftists should generally push out bourgeois elements and other problematic tendencies, but of course that includes far more tendencies than DD. In fact i'd argue that of the problematic tendencies, including on Syria, DD is probably not even the biggest problem because he is a well-established pariah. On Thursday, January 7, 2016, A.R. G wrote: > Hi, > > I have to admit, I'm not sure what point Jeff thinks I am trying to make, > or what point he is trying to make. The point is that Neo-Nazis like DD > attach themselves to otherwise legitimate causes. I would bet that most > (though not all) who have been approached by him have rejected any such > "support". Assad and Ahmadinejad didn't, but I do not expect much from > either of them. > > On Thursday, January 7, 2016, Jeff via Marxism < > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > > wrote: > >> POSTING RULES & NOTES >> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. >> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. >> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. >> * >> >> Funny thing: Amith was trying to make one point. But the list he compiled >> about David Duke (whose political shifts I do not follow, believe it or >> not) to me makes just about the opposite point (the one Louis was trying >> to >> make regarding Syria): >> >> At 16:38 07-01-16 -0800, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: >> > >> >... David Duke has attached >> >himself to just about everything, >> >> [Well "everything" is an awfully big set. I think I could jot down a much >> longer list of issues which David Duke surely does NOT (without even >> checking) support at all. Obviously. Which is why it makes sense to >> consider exactly who is on the list and why.] >> >> > including Ralph Nader, the Atkins diet, >> >the Presbyterian Church's divestment from Israeli occupation, at least >> one >> >former Black Panther Party member running for election, Donald Trump, Ron >> >Paul, the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory movement, Rachel Corrie and her death at >> >the hands of Israel, Occupy Wall Street, the Tea Party, the >> >Walt/Mearsheimer thesis on the Israel Lobby, and so forth >> >> The problem here isn't with David Duke, who is a populist (and fascist, I >> believe) and attaches himself to issues on a list that was partly >> predictable. It is leftists who are involved in any of these themselves, >> if >> they haven't insulated themselves from, and hopefully considered their >> relationship in practice to, participation by the class enemy. In most >> cases listed it is rather clear (related to conspiracy theories for >> instance). In the ones related to Israel (I carefully say "Israel" and not >> "Palestinians" who rightists have no more regard for than other third >> world >> peoples) we have discussed in the past (hell, Amith brought it up himself >> as an invited topic for discussion!) the "paradox" if you will of >> opposition to Israel by both the left and much of the right and far-right. >> Briefly, I'd identify two reasons for the curious affection for Palestine >> by segments of the right-wing: 1) Latent or in some cases overt >> antisemitism, in which political power held specifically by Jews >> infuriates >> them; 2) A genuine analysis (which may be somewhat or largely true) that >> support to Israel by the US (or whichever Western capitalist country they >> claim to) causes them more harm that good. That it is a mistaken policy >> FROM the standpoint of ruling class interests. >> >> And I don't know which *former* Panther he supported for office, and among >> those on the left I can sort of see why the rhetoric of Ralph Nader might >> be acceptable to a populist on the right. And he may have had a positive >> attitude to parts of Occupy Wall Street in some temporally or >> geographically limited scope (I didn't hear about the cops busting him) -- >> that doesn't mean much. >> >> >. He is a pro at >> >mixing his weirdo white supremacist politics with otherwise legitimate >> >> Again, when someone encounters cognitive dissonance, they need to consider >> not only that the world might be acting in unexplainable ways, but that >> their preconceptions were a bit off. All the leftists supporting Assad >> need >> to do that. Amith's theory that he expressed once (paraphrasing) about >> "right-wingers who support leftist causes", similarly needs to be >> questioned. >> >> - Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _
