Re: [Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

[Ratbag Media via Marxism]

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This obsession with the 'correctness' or not of Scottish independence,
as though it's a unique or un-welcomed  dynamic, is hard to relate to.
If you were to come visit the Antipodes, socialists here have
cohabited for decades and worked with (and been replenished from) many
ethnic groups with strong nationalist aspirations: Croatians, Kurds,
Greek Macedonians, Armenians, Sri Lankan Tamils, Irish...just to name
a few.

'Nationalism' ain't something you can treat paternalistically with a
score card. Indeed, key struggles in our region have been governed by
nationalist aspirations: Timor Leste/East Timor, Aceh, Irian Jaya/West
Papua, Bougainville (30 languages), Tamil Ealem... and there are major
conundrums presented by seeming contradictory perspectives  of Kanak
nationalism in Vanuatu  vs indigenous  manoeuvres to oppress
Indo-Fijians in Fiji.

Further offshore, national and regional independence is a growing
issue  in Hawaii, and in Mexico and other Central American
countries... and further south...even in Venezuela.

What happens in Scotland will also impact directly on Catalonia, the
Basque Country and the Six Counties.

Among many Australian Aborigines and Torress Strait Islanders survival
is formatted by the perspective of Aboriginal Sovereignty.
https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/13502

dave riley

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Re: [Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

[Einde O'Callaghan via Marxism]

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Sent from my Sony Xperia™ smartphone

 DW via Marxism wrote 
> 
> I don't have a position on this question (simply because I haven't studied
> it) but i do have some questions. I could be wrong but they are not voting
> for a Republic. The Queen remains head of state, it seems, or will. Also
> the continued use of the Pound as their currency seems to . And there seems
> to be a general consensus the new Scottish entity will surrender their
> sovereignty to Europe pretty quickly. There seems to be a rip roaring
> debate on this question on the left in Scotland and the UK. I will read the
> articles posted by Richard and see what they have to say.
> 
> DW
> 
Think Norway and Sweden as discussed by Lenin - Norway remained a monarchy but 
Lenin supported the Norwegians' right of self-determination.

Einde O'Callaghan 

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Re: [Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

[Ratbag Media via Marxism]

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Richard Fidler: "Neil Davidson ... the correct standpoint of revolutionary
socialist strategy...":

http://www.socialistproject.org/the-left/for-a-yes-vote-without-illusions-on-the-scottish-independence-referendum/

You mean obscurantist correctness like this:

"We need to begin with what I regard as fundamental principles. Socialists
cannot be nationalists for any nation, but especially not their own, *even
if their nation is oppressed*. What they can do is support certain national
movements and demands, up to and including secession. The basis for
deciding which-if any to support in any given situation is political, which
is not to say that it can be determined by the blunt instrument of the
'oppressed/oppressor' formula: there are situations where even oppressed
nationalities cannot be supported if their objectives are essentially part
of a greater imperialist strategy, as was the case for Pan-Slavism in 1848,
for Serbia in 1914 and for the Iraqi Kurds today. And Scotland is not, and
has never been, an oppressed nation."

As one commentator to Davidson's piece quite rightly wrote about his
argumentation:'For a yes vote without any illusions there is any point
voting yes?'

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Re: [Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

[Ratbag Media via Marxism]

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While I would have thought that support for Scottish independence -- esp
given Scottish history from Culloden to the Clearances and the First World
War -- was a 'no brainer' for any Marxist, I note a certain  preference
 for schematism inherent in the left No arguments. Good example: George
Galloway -- who is now trying to colonise Scotland on a NO! to independence
platform.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-george-galloways-stirring-speech-in-defence-of-the-union-9566418.html

"I know which side I'm on. I'm with JK Rowling. Just say No."

The left no arguments in support of Cameron!

There's also a gross obscenity embedded in the argument that you can't
warrant independence BECAUSE you're not oppressed! How many times have the
oppressed been told that before by those who reap the benefits of their
exploitation!

However, what's often missing from  this discourse is the actuality of
lived experienced in contemporary Britain.

As Paul Mason  observes in
the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/31/scottish-independence-yes-vote-turnout-polls

"What this means is, even if the yes vote fails on 18 September, scoring
somewhere in the mid 40s, the pattern of all future Scottish independence
debates is set. Independence has become a narrative of the people against
big government; about an energised Scottish street, bar and nightclub
versus the sleazy elite of official politicsIf it happens there'll be a
lot of finger pointing, but it's obvious in advance where the biggest
problem lies: it's become impossible to express opposition to free market
economics via the main Westminster parties."

Indeed this is the point:the  independence movement in Scotland is a hub
for a broader dynamic that  goes back to the Poll Tax fight  and the
Thatcher Divide.It sits in the context of decades of neo-liberal austerity
 and serves to aggregate a collective discussion about the sort of society
the Scots can make together and how it could be reached. It also registers
 the collapse of the Labour Party and the Tories in Scotland and the rise
of new forces.

And some lefts want to argue that it's all a mistake! Or a distraction
from?

Of relevance to this is the significant and growing support for
independence among migrant groups within Scotland...which is an interesting
phenomenon  in light of UKIP activism in England.

dave riley

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Re: [Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

[DW via Marxism]

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John, I think you write this without reading the arguments.  If you read
the links provided by Richard, including the SSP one, and, the links I
found on the Weekly Worker as well as the one just posted Sandy McBurney
the debate is a lot richer than simply, even at all, about "British
privileges". It seems far more complex and goes to the question not simply
of self-determination but of *oppression* and if a united *British* working
class (which I would think excludes the Irish in the north of their island
currently occupied by the British) that the debate is far richer, far more
complex than you make it out to be...on both sides of the argument.

This is much more fascinating that I thought it was going to be...

DW

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Re: [Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Do not have a position on weakening the British State?  
 
Some British lefties identify with the British State privileges and occupations,
but no surprise that all the Irish nationalists welcome a YES vote - to cause 
the
ending of the "United Kingdom" - that will directly aid the ending of the 
British
occupation of Northern Ireland.  
 
Perhaps one should understand The National Question that led to the Soviet Union
being the first and only nation for many years to give official recognition to 
the
nation of Ireland.  Perhaps DW does not realize there is a "connection" to the
Scotland and Ireland Independence struggles?
 
Always excuses by the privileged in England to identify with the real British 
imperialists
and offer fears of instability of having oppressed people having control of 
their
own nation, even when just a bourgeois democracy. The working people of Scotland
and Ireland will do better with a less powerful England!
 
 

 


 
> I don't have a position on this question (simply because I haven't studied
> it) but i do have some questions. I could be wrong but they are not voting
> for a Republic. The Queen remains head of state, it seems, or will. Also
> the continued use of the Pound as their currency seems to . And there seems
> to be a general consensus the new Scottish entity will surrender their
> sovereignty to Europe pretty quickly. There seems to be a rip roaring
> debate on this question on the left in Scotland and the UK. I will read the
> articles posted by Richard and see what they have to say.
> 
> DW
  

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Re: [Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

[Richard Fidler via Marxism]

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Yes, debate there certainly is. As usual in such matters, the content of the
question is decided by the party that organizes the referendum -- in this
case, the Scottish National Party, very bourgeois. Hence the stuff about the
Queen, the pound, the EU membership, etc. But Scottish socialists have for
the most part found ways to participate with their own campaign. Here's
more, on the SSP website:  http://tinyurl.com/knmr482

RF

-Original Message-
From: Marxism [mailto:marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu] On Behalf Of DW
via Marxism
Sent: September-03-14 4:29 PM
To: rfidle...@sympatico.ca
Subject: [Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

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I don't have a position on this question (simply because I haven't studied
it) but i do have some questions. I could be wrong but they are not voting
for a Republic. The Queen remains head of state, it seems, or will. Also
the continued use of the Pound as their currency seems to . And there seems
to be a general consensus the new Scottish entity will surrender their
sovereignty to Europe pretty quickly. There seems to be a rip roaring
debate on this question on the left in Scotland and the UK. I will read the
articles posted by Richard and see what they have to say.

DW

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[Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

[DW via Marxism]

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I don't have a position on this question (simply because I haven't studied
it) but i do have some questions. I could be wrong but they are not voting
for a Republic. The Queen remains head of state, it seems, or will. Also
the continued use of the Pound as their currency seems to . And there seems
to be a general consensus the new Scottish entity will surrender their
sovereignty to Europe pretty quickly. There seems to be a rip roaring
debate on this question on the left in Scotland and the UK. I will read the
articles posted by Richard and see what they have to say.

DW

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[Marxism] English radicals in support of Scottish independence

[Richard Fidler via Marxism]

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Two excellent articles on the Scottish independence referendum, to be held
September 18

Scotland: Independence without borders, by Hilary Wainwright
http://links.org.au/node/4022

Scots voting no to independence would be an astonishing act of self-harm, by
George Monbiot
http://tinyurl.com/kd83ywt

-- Richard


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