Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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In the first place, as far as building a mass movement against a possible
US invasion: There was exactly such a movement against a US invasion of
Iraq, and we saw how successful it was in preventing that invasion. I am
all in favor of organizing against such an invasion again, but if they have
decided to go ahead and invade, we have to be realistic as to the effect it
will have. One thing is for sure: Ignoring or denying the anti-working
class nature of the Maduro regime will not help as far as attracting
workers. Just the opposite.

As far Maduro and Assad: Of course there are huge differences. For one
thing, US imperialism is actually trying to get Maduro out. For another,
the scale of repression is qualitatively greater in Syria. But we shouldn't
blind ourselves to the similarities either. They both base themselves on
the military. Also, the elder Assad actually carried out some positive
reforms that weren't all that totally different from what Chavez carried
out. Then, under the pressure of global capitalism, Assad the younger
reversed those reforms and then some. This is similar (although not
identical) to the process in Venezuela, where Maduro has now made the
working class pay for the economic crisis there. And while I don't know if
all the "misiones" have been formally eliminated, the unavailability of
medicine and of food stuffs largely ends many of them in practice. As for
the level of corruption, I'm not sure if it is all that different in the
two countries. So, yes there are important differences and, yes, there are
also some similarities.

The main thing, though, is that it's a serious mistake to just ignore the
blunders and crimes of the Maduro administration.

John Reimann
PS. I am just hearing news that the US is removing its remaining staff in
its embassy in Venezuela. Up until now, I had thought that a US invasion
was possible but unlikely. The removal of the staff changes things a bit.
We have to ask whether that is in preparation for an invasion from the US
and/or from Colombia and Brazil. If so, then that still brings to the fore
the question of the role of the working class, both in those countries and
in the US. It would also bring to the fore in a slightly different way the
necessity for a mass working class party here.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 5:49 PM Chris Slee  wrote:

> John Reimann says:
>
> 'Chris Slee adds to the confusion by writing "The main way in which
> socialists in the United States and its allies can influence events in
> Venezuela is by campaiging to end the economic blockade." But it's pretty
> clear that that has not has any significant degree of "influence" on events
> there either.'
>
> To have any effect on US policy would require a large scale campaign with
> hundreds of thousands of people in the streets.  Building such a campaign
> is one of the tasks of the US left.  This would require educating large
> numbers of people about the role of US imperialism in Latin America.  This
> is part of the process of building "a mass, independent, radical working
> class movement" in the US.
>
> John says:
>
> 'Both Maduro and Chavez before him massively
> mishandled the oil industry by using all its profits to create the
> "misiones" for the workers and the poor in Venezuela. As a result, there
> was no reinvestment in maintaining and modernizing the oil industry.'
>
> This may well have been a mistake, but their desire to bring health,
> education and housing to the poor through the misiones was progressive.
> Hence I don't think John's analogy between the Chavez/Maduro government and
> the Assad regime is valid.
>
> Chris Slee
>
> --
> *From:* Marxism  on behalf of John
> Reimann via Marxism 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 13 March 2019 9:42:46 AM
> *To:* Chris Slee
> *Subject:* Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left
> Weekly)
>
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>
> Louis Proyect writes:
> On 3/12/19 2:14 PM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote:
> > None of this means support for Guaido and for US intervention (of any
> > sort). But there is an alternative - that of the action of the Venezuelan
> > working cla

Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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John Reimann says:

'Chris Slee adds to the confusion by writing "The main way in which
socialists in the United States and its allies can influence events in
Venezuela is by campaiging to end the economic blockade." But it's pretty
clear that that has not has any significant degree of "influence" on events
there either.'

To have any effect on US policy would require a large scale campaign with 
hundreds of thousands of people in the streets.  Building such a campaign is 
one of the tasks of the US left.  This would require educating large numbers of 
people about the role of US imperialism in Latin America.  This is part of the 
process of building "a mass, independent, radical working class movement" in 
the US.

John says:

'Both Maduro and Chavez before him massively
mishandled the oil industry by using all its profits to create the
"misiones" for the workers and the poor in Venezuela. As a result, there
was no reinvestment in maintaining and modernizing the oil industry.'

This may well have been a mistake, but their desire to bring health, education 
and housing to the poor through the misiones was progressive.  Hence I don't 
think John's analogy between the Chavez/Maduro government and the Assad regime 
is valid.

Chris Slee


From: Marxism  on behalf of John Reimann 
via Marxism 
Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2019 9:42:46 AM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

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Louis Proyect writes:
On 3/12/19 2:14 PM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote:
> None of this means support for Guaido and for US intervention (of any
> sort). But there is an alternative - that of the action of the Venezuelan
> working class, acting as its own independent force through its own
> independent organizations.

Yes, John, we all know that. But even if you managed to convince every
last Green Left supporter to agree with you, that would make zero impact
on Venezuela politics. All of these things have been understood to one
degree or another since the mid-20s but repeating them in ritual
incantations has no effect unless you believe in magic.

Just throwing names at something ("ritualistic incantations") doesn't make
it so. Louis takes a couple of sentences from the entire email and makes it
seem that this was the purpose of the email as a whole. I am not so
delusional as to think that I can influence Maduro's policies. Neither can
Green Left Weekly, nor even Louis Proyect. In fact, the only way that
events can be influenced to any significant degree from here in the US is
through a mass, independent, radical working class movement, and what is
required for that is a change in objective conditions. The entire socialist
movement combined cannot produce that.

Chris Slee adds to the confusion by writing "The main way in which
socialists in the United States and its allies can influence events in
Venezuela is by campaiging to end the economic blockade." But it's pretty
clear that that has not has any significant degree of "influence" on events
there either.

What we can do is try to clarify things in preparation for a future
movement. That was exactly the point of what I wrote. Unfortunately, the
way Louis attacks that attempt - by using phrases like "ritual
incantations" does not help. Nor does whitewashing the Maduro regime as did
the Green Left Weekly article.

Incidentally, one point I forgot to mention in my previous letter is this:
That article in effect says that the entire economic crisis in Venezuela is
caused by the decline in the price of oil. That, of course, is a part of
the cause, but only a part. Both Maduro and Chavez before him massively
mishandled the oil industry by using all its profits to create the
"misiones" for the workers and the poor in Venezuela. As a result, there
was no reinvestment in maintaining and modernizing the oil industry. To add
insult to injury, there has been massive corruption in the military-run oil
industry as well as in the government as a whole.

Nobody on this list (I think) would deny the massive confusion on the left
in regard to Syria. There, all to much of the left only sees the (supposed)
US hostility to Assad. All they can see is "regime change&q

Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/12/19 6:42 PM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote:

Just throwing names at something ("ritualistic incantations") doesn't make
it so. Louis takes a couple of sentences from the entire email and makes it
seem that this was the purpose of the email as a whole. I am not so
delusional as to think that I can influence Maduro's policies. Neither can
Green Left Weekly, nor even Louis Proyect.


If I were you, I would lay off verbiage like "only the working class can 
lead a revolutionary struggle...", etc. Unless you enjoy preaching to 
the choir.

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Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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Louis Proyect writes:
On 3/12/19 2:14 PM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote:
> None of this means support for Guaido and for US intervention (of any
> sort). But there is an alternative - that of the action of the Venezuelan
> working class, acting as its own independent force through its own
> independent organizations.

Yes, John, we all know that. But even if you managed to convince every
last Green Left supporter to agree with you, that would make zero impact
on Venezuela politics. All of these things have been understood to one
degree or another since the mid-20s but repeating them in ritual
incantations has no effect unless you believe in magic.

Just throwing names at something ("ritualistic incantations") doesn't make
it so. Louis takes a couple of sentences from the entire email and makes it
seem that this was the purpose of the email as a whole. I am not so
delusional as to think that I can influence Maduro's policies. Neither can
Green Left Weekly, nor even Louis Proyect. In fact, the only way that
events can be influenced to any significant degree from here in the US is
through a mass, independent, radical working class movement, and what is
required for that is a change in objective conditions. The entire socialist
movement combined cannot produce that.

Chris Slee adds to the confusion by writing "The main way in which
socialists in the United States and its allies can influence events in
Venezuela is by campaiging to end the economic blockade." But it's pretty
clear that that has not has any significant degree of "influence" on events
there either.

What we can do is try to clarify things in preparation for a future
movement. That was exactly the point of what I wrote. Unfortunately, the
way Louis attacks that attempt - by using phrases like "ritual
incantations" does not help. Nor does whitewashing the Maduro regime as did
the Green Left Weekly article.

Incidentally, one point I forgot to mention in my previous letter is this:
That article in effect says that the entire economic crisis in Venezuela is
caused by the decline in the price of oil. That, of course, is a part of
the cause, but only a part. Both Maduro and Chavez before him massively
mishandled the oil industry by using all its profits to create the
"misiones" for the workers and the poor in Venezuela. As a result, there
was no reinvestment in maintaining and modernizing the oil industry. To add
insult to injury, there has been massive corruption in the military-run oil
industry as well as in the government as a whole.

Nobody on this list (I think) would deny the massive confusion on the left
in regard to Syria. There, all to much of the left only sees the (supposed)
US hostility to Assad. All they can see is "regime change". They are blind
to the role of and experiences of the working class. Leaving completely
aside the fact that the US supports Assad, even if it didn't, I think we
would all condemn that regime. But there is a similar blindness in regards
to Venezuela. That's what socialists should be trying to clear up.

John Reimann

-- 
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Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
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Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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The main way in which socialists in the United States and its allies can 
influence events in Venezuela is by campaiging to end the economic blockade.

Chris Slee

From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2019 5:33:02 AM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

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On 3/12/19 2:14 PM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote:
> None of this means support for Guaido and for US intervention (of any
> sort). But there is an alternative - that of the action of the Venezuelan
> working class, acting as its own independent force through its own
> independent organizations.

Yes, John, we all know that. But even if you managed to convince every
last Green Left supporter to agree with you, that would make zero impact
on Venezuela politics. All of these things have been understood to one
degree or another since the mid-20s but repeating them in ritual
incantations has no effect unless you believe in magic.
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Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

[Greg McDonald via Marxism]

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I’m certainly not an expert on Venezuela by any stretch, but the idea that
the Bolivarian military and civilian militias are agents of the working
class is not a new idea. The Argentine Jorge Abelardo Ramos developed  a
synthesis of Bolivar and Marx. Néstor G. introduced me to his writings some
time ago, none of which have been translated into English as far as I know.

Greg McDonald
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Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/12/19 2:14 PM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote:

None of this means support for Guaido and for US intervention (of any
sort). But there is an alternative - that of the action of the Venezuelan
working class, acting as its own independent force through its own
independent organizations.


Yes, John, we all know that. But even if you managed to convince every 
last Green Left supporter to agree with you, that would make zero impact 
on Venezuela politics. All of these things have been understood to one 
degree or another since the mid-20s but repeating them in ritual 
incantations has no effect unless you believe in magic.

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Re: [Marxism] Grand alliance? threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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Major wings of the socialist left are in an ideological crisis similar to
that of the 1930s and '40s. Back then, the ideas of the Soviet bureaucracy
- as expressed by Stalin - pretty much dominated the socialist movement.
Now, it's facing a similar crisis, and a major aspect of those ideas again
dominates. That is the idea that in the ex-colonial world, the only
consideration is the role of US imperialism. The role of the working class
in the ex-colonial world, and therefore their experiences, doesn't matter.
That was the position of Stalinism, and it's being adopted by so much of
the left.

All too much of the "socialist" left takes it a step further: Their
position is to support Russian imperialism. That's why they support Assad.

It's good that Green Left Weekly doesn't go that far, but they apparently
have accepted the first step, more or less negating the role and experience
of the Venezuelan working class. At least if the article on Venezuela that
Chris Slee sent is any measure. Totally absent from the article is the
slightest hint of criticism of the military-based rule of Maduro. In fact,
the article goes so far as to imply that the military is an agent of the
working class. ("Citizen militia [is] ready to back up the army..." they
write.)

In the first place, except in the case of a working class revolutionary
overthrow of the capitalist state and the establishment of a working class
rule through workers' councils, the military can never be an agent of the
working class. Some will denounce this as abstract theoretical dogma, but
theory does play a role; it is important. And if the theory is correct, it
will explain the concrete situation. The situation in Venezuela is proof of
that. The military tops have vastly enriched themselves through their
control over major industry, including the PDVSA. They are part and parcel
of the bolibourgeoisie. As for the rank and file, Maduro is using special
privilege - the monthly food parcels - to maintain their loyalty. Maduro
has cracked down on the working class, repressing union organizing. His
agents have aligned with the old landlords in the rural areas, attacking
peasant groups. His government in repressing freedom of speech, such as in
the case of the disappearance for 8 hours of journalist Luis Carlos Diaz.
(It was subsequently revealed that he had been arrested.)

None of this means support for Guaido and for US intervention (of any
sort). But there is an alternative - that of the action of the Venezuelan
working class, acting as its own independent force through its own
independent organizations. This is what's been lost sight of time and time
again, and with it the actual experiences of the masses of people. That's
what the Green Left Weekly's article also ignores. The most recent and most
blatant example of this is Code Pink's shameful trip to Iran where they
helped provide cover for that criminal regime. It is unfortunate that Green
Left Weekly has added to this confusion.

John Reimann
-- 
*“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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[Marxism] ‘Grand alliance’ threatens Venezuela (Green Left Weekly)

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/%E2%80%98grand-alliance%E2%80%99-threatens-Venezuela


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