Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > On Apr 29, 2019, at 11:19 AM, MM wrote: > >> On Apr 29, 2019, at 10:55 AM, A.R. G via Marxism >> mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote: >> >> Symbols mean different things depending on how/where/when they are >> depicted. > > Exactly. And the presence of the yarmulke is part of the context for > everything else in the cartoon, and affects to some extent the meaning of > each element, and of the cartoon as a whole. It’s a stretch to argue that its > presence doesn’t signal to the viewer that the whole cartoon is to be read, > at least in part, through the lens of Jew-hatred. Ha’aretz has run an opinion piece by Zeev Engelmayer challenging my assertion above: “Behind Netanyahu the dachshund walks his good friend Trump, sullenly, a kippa on his head, symbolizing the strength of his ties with Netanyahu.” Available here for people without a sub: https://archive.is/3jk0f I have to say I’m not really convinced — Engelmayer is a political cartoonist, so obviously has ink in the game, but also I can’t find anything at all from him that addresses Palestine, Zionism, etc., which obviously says something about him, and not something good. But I’m more interested in getting at the truth than winning a debate — weird, right? — so wanted to share this in case it helps us collectively figure out how to make sense of this. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Not going to bother with John's response line-by-line but his statement about the meaning of the symbol is totally incorrect, again suggesting that symbols have inherent meaning regardless of where/how they are used and depicted, and his suggestion that we should accept that something is offensive based on how it is perceived and how people "feel" (including NYT staffers) is a gateway to chauvinism and war propaganda, including people who "feel" as though it is anti-Semitic when we make legitimate condemnations of Zionism. As I pointed out in my first response, the line of argument from HuffPost has nothing to do with the skullcap (which they skipped over), but simply some sort of vague rhetorical similarity between opposition to Israel/Zionism generally and "anti-Semitic tropes" (read: "Nazis said X about Jews, and so leftists/activists saying something similar to X about the Israeli state is a throwback to Nazism"). It is the same line of reasoning used to smear Ilhan Omar. That line of reasoning is total garbage. Also it is spelled "yarmulke". Best, Amith R. Gupta On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Obrien wrote: > The Star of David is a symbol that represents Jewry, it was long before > the present State of Israel. > Netanyahua is Jewish - but does not represent ALL Jews presently, or > through the ages. > The image on that dog, was not the State of Israel flag, it was a symbol > traced to 1,600 years ago and used to symbolize those identified as > religious faith Jews. > > Do I sense anti-Jew themes and messages in that sketch and tragically in > much else being oozed out - Yes I do! > Am I sensitive about bigotry and hate - yes and as should we all. > > Anti-Semitism against Jews and Arabs, is on the rise. I see it on the > internet and I hear it from those who think that I would be receptive to > hate. > > What do you mean when you write in denial response: "I'll admit the Trump > skullcap is sketch but" - the wording is not clear - > do you mean this was indeed anti-Jewish? (It clearly was) and you now > recognize that . If so, is that not enough and the "but" is not needed to > dilute this? > > The religious head piece is called a Yamika. Trump is not blind - or > being tricked/deceived by "clever Jews". Trump is not even Jewish to my > knowledge. > One of his daughters is - so he therefore is under "suspicion". > > The drawing was offensive to many - accept that - and perhaps learn more > WHY this sketch is viewed that way - due to a history of oppression. > The NY Tmes did not first apologize and only changed when staff quit and > negative blowback. Do you start to get why this cartoon is wrong and > hate? > -- > *.* > I'll admit the Trump skullcap is sketch but the other elements really > aren't. It sounds like the AJC and the Times (and fellow comrades) are > splitting hairs so as to read in anti-Semitic themes in what is plainly a > cartoon about Netanyahu leading an idiot President. I do not see anything > anti-Jewish about depicting Netanyahu or Israel as America's attack-dog. > > That Nazis and others use such imagery for their own nefarious reasons > should not be a reason to read it in to anti-Zionist art, which was the > thrust of the concern voiced in HuffPost. > > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 12:57 AM mkaradjis . via Marxism < > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > > > POSTING RULES & NOTES > > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > > * > > > > "And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make?" > > > > I think it suggests that America is being run by a Jew, and that's why it > > is so strongly supportive of Israel. > > I usually agree with Amith on these issues, but I think here the cartoon > is > > pretty disgusting. > > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:48 PM Ken Hiebert via Marxism < > > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > > > > > POSTING RULES & NOTES > > > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > > > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > > > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > > > * > > > > > > I don’t know what the cartoonist intended, but the cartoon has > problems. > > > There is a distinction to be made if you want to indicate Israel with a > > > Star of David. O
Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The Star of David is a symbol that represents Jewry, it was long before the present State of Israel. Netanyahua is Jewish - but does not represent ALL Jews presently, or through the ages. The image on that dog, was not the State of Israel flag, it was a symbol traced to 1,600 years ago and used to symbolize those identified as religious faith Jews. Do I sense anti-Jew themes and messages in that sketch and tragically in much else being oozed out - Yes I do! Am I sensitive about bigotry and hate - yes and as should we all. Anti-Semitism against Jews and Arabs, is on the rise. I see it on the internet and I hear it from those who think that I would be receptive to hate. What do you mean when you write in denial response: "I'll admit the Trump skullcap is sketch but" - the wording is not clear - do you mean this was indeed anti-Jewish? (It clearly was) and you now recognize that . If so, is that not enough and the "but" is not needed to dilute this? The religious head piece is called a Yamika. Trump is not blind - or being tricked/deceived by "clever Jews". Trump is not even Jewish to my knowledge. One of his daughters is - so he therefore is under "suspicion". The drawing was offensive to many - accept that - and perhaps learn more WHY this sketch is viewed that way - due to a history of oppression. The NY Tmes did not first apologize and only changed when staff quit and negative blowback. Do you start to get why this cartoon is wrong and hate? . I'll admit the Trump skullcap is sketch but the other elements really aren't. It sounds like the AJC and the Times (and fellow comrades) are splitting hairs so as to read in anti-Semitic themes in what is plainly a cartoon about Netanyahu leading an idiot President. I do not see anything anti-Jewish about depicting Netanyahu or Israel as America's attack-dog. That Nazis and others use such imagery for their own nefarious reasons should not be a reason to read it in to anti-Zionist art, which was the thrust of the concern voiced in HuffPost. On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 12:57 AM mkaradjis . via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > "And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make?" > > I think it suggests that America is being run by a Jew, and that's why it > is so strongly supportive of Israel. > I usually agree with Amith on these issues, but I think here the cartoon is > pretty disgusting. > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:48 PM Ken Hiebert via Marxism < > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > > > POSTING RULES & NOTES > > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > > * > > > > I don’t know what the cartoonist intended, but the cartoon has problems. > > There is a distinction to be made if you want to indicate Israel with a > > Star of David. On the Israeli flag it appears between two bars. By > itself > > it might indicate Israel or it might simply indicate someone or something > > Jewish. > > If you want to indicate Israel, why not use the flag? > > > > And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make? How does > > that help anyone to understand the relationship between the US and > Israel? > > > > ken h > > > > > > > > _ > > Full posting guidelines at: > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.marxmail.org%2Fsub.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7C6cf248ec5356423e9dee08d6cca02c59%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636921385637185347&sdata=snB9R2by1Jglv%2BLBPqUSefLpgTMiekQSCYh2puAggCk%3D&reserved=0 > > Set your options at: > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.csbs.utah.edu%2Foptions%2Fmarxism%2Fmkaradjis%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C6cf248ec5356423e9dee08d6cca02c59%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636921385637195358&sdata=JU%2F0t0A1qUe1TMtSCMqXndBieVnxR2Bamfgvct%2Bx2kk%3D&reserved=0 > _ > Full posting guidelines at: > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=h
Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > On Apr 29, 2019, at 10:55 AM, A.R. G via Marxism > wrote: > > Symbols mean different things depending on how/where/when they are > depicted. Exactly. And the presence of the yarmulke is part of the context for everything else in the cartoon, and affects to some extent the meaning of each element, and of the cartoon as a whole. It’s a stretch to argue that its presence doesn’t signal to the viewer that the whole cartoon is to be read, at least in part, through the lens of Jew-hatred. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "If you want to indicate Israel, why not use the flag? " Putting aside whatever other issues might exist with this particular painting, I find this logic problematic. Israel itself does not always use the "two bars" (e.g. on its airplanes which carry the bombs that destroy Gaza) and it's a wonder what might happen to our ability to depict Zionist oppression through art if Israel were to simply remove the bars themselves. In most cases, we judge the meaning of a symbol by its context. We rarely assume that a symbol -- any symbol -- has some sort of intrinsic meaning. A swastika at a Buddhist temple does not mean the same thing as as a swastika on someone's armband at a white supremacist rally. A Christian cross around the neck of a Christian peace activist does not mean the same thing as a cross that is on fire that appears on a black family's lawn. An Islamic statement of faith scrawled on the wall of a mosque does not mean the same thing as when it is put on a black flag that accompanies a video of a gay man being thrown off a roof in Iraq. Similarly, a Jewish star on a synagogue, around the neck of an observant Jew, or likewise does not mean the same thing as a Jewish star on the flags, machinery, uniforms -- or politicians -- associated with the brute forced displacement of non-Jews. Symbols mean different things depending on how/where/when they are depicted. Here there is such a symbol on a caricature of Netanyahu, who is depicted as a cartoon dog leading around Trump, who is blind. The lengths one has to go to assume there is some sort of anti-Semitic aspect to that imagery (that it is like the dehumanizing pictures that Julius Streicher used or something) is a blatant reach. Artist could have avoided giving Trump a yarmulke, though. Not sure why that was necessary and I concede that that single motif does unnecessarily add a discriminatory dimension to the picture and undermines what I maintain is a pretty straightforward and reasonable line of argument about Israel and Trump. Amith R. Gupta On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:41 AM A.R. G wrote: > I'll admit the Trump skullcap is sketch but the other elements really > aren't. It sounds like the AJC and the Times (and fellow comrades) are > splitting hairs so as to read in anti-Semitic themes in what is plainly a > cartoon about Netanyahu leading an idiot President. I do not see anything > anti-Jewish about depicting Netanyahu or Israel as America's attack-dog. > > That Nazis and others use such imagery for their own nefarious reasons > should not be a reason to read it in to anti-Zionist art, which was the > thrust of the concern voiced in HuffPost. > > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 12:57 AM mkaradjis . via Marxism < > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > >> POSTING RULES & NOTES >> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. >> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. >> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. >> * >> >> "And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make?" >> >> I think it suggests that America is being run by a Jew, and that's why it >> is so strongly supportive of Israel. >> I usually agree with Amith on these issues, but I think here the cartoon >> is >> pretty disgusting. >> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:48 PM Ken Hiebert via Marxism < >> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: >> >> > POSTING RULES & NOTES >> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. >> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. >> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. >> > * >> > >> > I don’t know what the cartoonist intended, but the cartoon has problems. >> > There is a distinction to be made if you want to indicate Israel with a >> > Star of David. On the Israeli flag it appears between two bars. By >> itself >> > it might indicate Israel or it might simply indicate someone or >> something >> > Jewish. >> > If you want to indicate Israel, why not use the flag? >> > >> > And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make? How does >> > that help anyone to understand the relationship between the US and >> Israel? >> > >> > ken h >> > >> > >> > >> > _ >> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm >> > Set your options at: >> > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com >> _
Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I'll admit the Trump skullcap is sketch but the other elements really aren't. It sounds like the AJC and the Times (and fellow comrades) are splitting hairs so as to read in anti-Semitic themes in what is plainly a cartoon about Netanyahu leading an idiot President. I do not see anything anti-Jewish about depicting Netanyahu or Israel as America's attack-dog. That Nazis and others use such imagery for their own nefarious reasons should not be a reason to read it in to anti-Zionist art, which was the thrust of the concern voiced in HuffPost. On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 12:57 AM mkaradjis . via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > "And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make?" > > I think it suggests that America is being run by a Jew, and that's why it > is so strongly supportive of Israel. > I usually agree with Amith on these issues, but I think here the cartoon is > pretty disgusting. > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:48 PM Ken Hiebert via Marxism < > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > > > POSTING RULES & NOTES > > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > > * > > > > I don’t know what the cartoonist intended, but the cartoon has problems. > > There is a distinction to be made if you want to indicate Israel with a > > Star of David. On the Israeli flag it appears between two bars. By > itself > > it might indicate Israel or it might simply indicate someone or something > > Jewish. > > If you want to indicate Israel, why not use the flag? > > > > And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make? How does > > that help anyone to understand the relationship between the US and > Israel? > > > > ken h > > > > > > > > _ > > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > > Set your options at: > > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make?" I think it suggests that America is being run by a Jew, and that's why it is so strongly supportive of Israel. I usually agree with Amith on these issues, but I think here the cartoon is pretty disgusting. On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:48 PM Ken Hiebert via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > I don’t know what the cartoonist intended, but the cartoon has problems. > There is a distinction to be made if you want to indicate Israel with a > Star of David. On the Israeli flag it appears between two bars. By itself > it might indicate Israel or it might simply indicate someone or something > Jewish. > If you want to indicate Israel, why not use the flag? > > And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make? How does > that help anyone to understand the relationship between the US and Israel? > > ken h > > > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I don’t know what the cartoonist intended, but the cartoon has problems. There is a distinction to be made if you want to indicate Israel with a Star of David. On the Israeli flag it appears between two bars. By itself it might indicate Israel or it might simply indicate someone or something Jewish. If you want to indicate Israel, why not use the flag? And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make? How does that help anyone to understand the relationship between the US and Israel? ken h _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I found the cartoon to have troubling symbolage with the use of the Star of David and the Yamika on Trump, as being anti-Jewish. It follows a historical usage of anti-Jew hatred. Those as myself who are not of Jewish ancestry, need to be aware and sensitive to how such images and messages, are used to spread hate. That the Star of David was used by zionist to promote their state and views, is to suggest that other symbols used by one segment or sector of another identity group - represents ALL of that group. I am no fan of any organized religion. Too often myelf been attaked by religious fanatics, but I understand the difference of one or a group, as for the whole ancestry of a people and those with religious beliefs, being ALL bad and an enemy and to be feared and hated. It is why I oppose zionism and all forms of wrong misplaced superiority over others. I took the time to learn about history of injustice - and hate and fear of those "different". As a atheist, I will wear a Star of David, or another symbol, if a way to show resistance to wrong and of usually religious based intolerance, focused on those "different". As usual, anti-Semitism conflated with anti-Zionism by arguing some sort of vague rhetorical similarity. NYT's apology is simply an extension of the paper's regular Zionist and anti-Arab & anti-Muslim propaganda. Amith R. Gupta _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * As usual, anti-Semitism conflated with anti-Zionism by arguing some sort of vague rhetorical similarity. NYT's apology is simply an extension of the paper's regular Zionist and anti-Arab & anti-Muslim propaganda. Amith R. Gupta On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 11:10 AM Alan Ginsberg via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > > https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-york-times-antisemitic-cartoon_n_5cc47e9be4b04eb7ff968179 > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-york-times-antisemitic-cartoon_n_5cc47e9be4b04eb7ff968179 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
