Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
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"But that Sanders poses as a socialist and projects a sort of crude and erratic
class divide -- in the context of the US Presidential Game Show : that has
to be very significant. That has to be a plus because, despite what ever his
preferences, Sanders unleashes and inspires forces that may later find him,and
his party allegiance, wanting. What happens 'if'/when he backs Clinton? Where
does that momentum and frustration go? It won't default to a bunch of wannabe
'we-told-you-so' outfits who did not go through the Sanders experience with
them. It will instead be demoralised. And the promise fades because the 'real'
socialists could not harness it."
I would say, Dave, that your points are really an argument that would give many
leftists in the U.S. a justification to support Sanders, much like a similar
argument made it palatable for otherwise skeptical people of color--and some
leftists--to support Obama in 2008 (and only less so in 2012). I believe that
what is remarkable about this "up-ante'd" posing of a "socialist" running for
a capitalist party is NOT that it "unleashes and inspires forces that may later
find him . . . wanting" (THAT is the trap), but the reason behind this event;
namely that the economic crisis created by the capitalists and the political
bankruptcy of their TWIN parties has resulted in growing disaffection with
capitalism and openness (openly so) to ideas that are both truly socialist and
the phony "socialism" propounded by Sanders and, now, some of those "wannabe"
outfits trying to ride the coattails of this "Sanders experience".
It is indeed remarkable that there are more people looking to socialist ideas.
But that yearning for socialist ideas is an argument actually to BE socialist,
to Explain socialism for what it truly IS and for veritable socialists engage
larger numbers of interested youth and the oppressed that "crude and erratic
class divide" by showing WHERE that divide actually is, between the interests
of the working and oppressed masses and that of the liberal wing of the ruling
classes on the one hand and, as well, against the pessimism and frustration
emanating from the disaffected privileged and reactionary elements among the
classes that represent the fascist alternative.
Now is the time to be clear ("patiently explain") about the lessons and
devastating results inherent in what has up to now only been an esoteric notion
(for the masses) of "lesser-evil politics". Now is the time to present truly
anti-capitalist, "socialist", or independent-of-the-capitalist-parties
alternative to the Twin Pillars of Continued War, Repression, Environmental
Devastation, and Economic Disaster that are the Democratic and Republican
Parties. Supporting a (supposed) radical to "build a people's movement" within
the capitalist parties is exactly the wrong thing to do and does nothing to
"unleash and inspire" social forces that have already become inspired and
already at least partially unleashed by their/our own reaction to the ongoing
capitalist drive toward barbarism. It is not Sanders that unleashing or
inspiring anything, but only reflecting the very real potential for actually
building a "people's movement" and "political revolution" against the
capitalist parties an
d their failed policies. Indeed, the liberal capitalists may not have seen
the potential for drawing the masses back into their lesser-evil trap, but it
is plainly clear that supporting that attraction is likely a great opportunity
for creating that very "demoralisation" that would come of the Sanders campaign
and--to be very clear--even his potential victory if it comes to that!
A Sanders presidency would do the same for all the working masses that the
Obama victory did for the Black and Brown communities, a descendant spiral into
continued and acquiescent misery at the hands of our murderous rulers with a
"socialist" at the helm. Rather than building momentum for change we would see
more economic devastation, more suppression of democratic rights, and continued
war and militarization of communities with effect that even "radicals" would be
giving such outcomes their tacit endorsement at worst or weakened credibility
in trying to counter it at best. The masses may actually learn from such an
experience, but they will be doing so with an even more moribund
"revolutionary" current flailing away in the wake of the demoralising "flood"
that entrapped the "socialists" to bring Sanders to power. And, such an outcome
would be the result of a "victory" and not the more likely "defeat" of the
Sanders campaign to run capitalism for the cap
Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Manuel Barrera writes: "Heatwaves rising from the desert always seem like an oasis.' ..only if you think that the Sanders phenomenon has no cause in real angst and suffering. It is a symptom of the everyday experience of millions -- most of whom would not be able to make the transition, on their own, to relating to another alternative left voice. If Sanders had remained an 'independent' -- of course that may indeed be a different challenge with an easier tactical passage. But inside the DEMs...!? That's your problem, stateside. But that Sanders poses as a socialist and projects a sort of crude and erratic class divide -- in the context of the US Presidential Game Show : that has to be very significant. That has to be a plus because, despite what ever his preferences, Sanders unleashes and inspires forces that may later find him,and his party allegiance, wanting. What happens 'if'/when he backs Clinton? Where does that momentum and frustration go? It won't default to a bunch of wannabe 'we-told-you-so' outfits who did not go through the Sanders experience with them. It will instead be demoralised. And the promise fades because the 'real' socialists could not harness it. dave riley _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * " We may not have to deal with the impact the Sanders campaign may have on US 3rd party politics -- but , let's say, Sanders is useful even a world away." Heatwaves rising from the desert always seem like an oasis. It's pathetic to support Sanders if you're a revolutionary when in the U.S. From "a world away" it is like spears urging the buffalo to the cliff. "But nothing ever stays the same, Nothing's explained, The longer it takes, the looser the ties, 'Cause this is it for all we know, So say goodnight to me, And lose no more time, no time, Resisting the flow" _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * A graphic I put together on Sanders maybe didn't go down so well in some quarters:'the lesser of 2 Democrat evils'. http://www.punchratbag.org/2016/01/bernie.html But I've seen US Dem populism before -- albeit from my posey in Australia. However, I think there is some stuff happening around the Sanders phenomenon that warrant relating tosomehow. Being stand offish doesn't cut the tactical mustard...as it woudl not have around the Jesse Jackson 'Rainbow' of 1984 I think HERE, in Australia, Steve O'Brien captures that potential pretty well in an op ed piece for the Newcastle Herald. Steve is a Socialist Alliance member and a local activist . 'Bernie Sanders and his example for Australian voters' http://www.theherald.com.au/story/3707623/sanders-shows-social-potential-to-australians/ We may not have to deal with the impact the Sanders campaign may have on US 3rd party politics -- but , let's say, Sanders is useful even a world away. As Steve writes: I suspect that millions of US citizens, just like my family, live with the fear and insecurity of being just one major illness away from bankruptcy and homelessness. Given this insecurity and the threat to jobs posed by neo-liberal globalisation, US working people are looking for solutions. Some are attracted to candidates like Trump who scapegoat immigrants and refugees. In contrast, Sanders sees corporate America as being responsible for, and benefiting from, the GFC and supports affordable healthcare, free education, a minimum wage and income equality. Sanders has also created space for grassroots socialists – such as Seattle City Councillor Kshama Sawant who was recently re-elected after helping win a $15 minimum wage. The progressive governments in Latin America, the emergence of Syriza in Greece, Podemos in Spain and the elevation of Jeremy Corbyn to leader of British Labour demonstrate the appeal of socialist policies. The Labor Party in Australia hasn’t caught on to the political shift represented by Sanders and Corbyn. ALP leader-in-waiting Anthony Albanese even red-baited his Green opponent in the seat of Grayndler for being a ‘socialist’ last week. An ALP break with neo-liberalism would show a difference between Shorten and Turnbull. Sanders shows the potential of the progressive vote and demonstrates that people need to be energised and inspired in order to want to exercise it. dave riley _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Well I have to confess, to a sneaking pleasure that Sanders was doing well. I know, I know. My Bad. But there is an absolute dearth of anything like the Good News. Here in Australia a billionaire Tory phoney has the liberal progressives in a swoon. The Arab Spring was strangled in the cradle. Syriza cut its own throat. And the sight of Putin in Moscow makes me want to retch. I won't go on. Alewitz is absolutely correct, (unfortunately). And I have been pulled into line, and I promise I won't backslide...still comradely Gary On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 3:25 AM, Michael Yates via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > From the fine artist, Mike Alewitz's Facebook page: > UNDERSTANDING THE SANDERS REVOLUTION > Let me see if I get this correctly: > Bernie Sanders went on demonstrations in the early 1960s, but then took a > 50-year break until 2014.So he skipped the anti-Vietnam War movement, the > women’s movement and the other critical social movements of his > generation.Now he supports working people, but thinks its ok to bomb them > in other countries.And he’s for democracy, but he supports monarchies and > Israeli apartheid.He’s for government transparency, but wants Snowden to > stand trial.He’s independent, but has always supported the corporate > Democratic Party candidates.He’s against police violence, but thinks the > police are a socialist institution.He voted against the Iraq War, but then > voted to fund it.He’s battling the Washington establishment, but he’s a > lifelong professional politician.He’s against Hillary Clinton, but has > pledged to support her after she wins the primary.He’s a democratic > socialist, but assures us he will not threaten capitalism.And he has > proclaimed that his vote in Iowa was the beginning of a Political > Revolution...So - he’s getting movement activists off the streets and > signing them up to strengthen the Democratic Party, a party that destroys > progressive movements, so he can lead the revolution that will end > Democratic Party politics, in order to move to a kind of socialism that > preserves capitalism? > Makes total sense.___ > What a complete waste of time by left-liberals devoting their energies to > tweeting and facebooking every ten seconds during Sanders-Clinton debates, > going on and on about a Sanders' revolution. Meanwhile, death and > destruction are rained down upon people all over the world, ignored by both > candidates, who would do nothing to end it. And the environment gets more > unlivable by the month, and again neither candidate gives a shit about it > and has no plan to change things. Just as those who support, directly or > indirectly, butchers like Assad and Putin should be shunned, so too should > those who more or less demand that leftists support Sanders be, scorned and > shunned. They are enemies of the left and make no mistake about it. > > > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > Bernie Sanders went on demonstrations in the early 1960s, but then took a 50-year break until 2014.So he skipped the anti-Vietnam War movement, the women’s movement and the other critical social movements of his generation.Now he supports working people, but thinks its ok to bomb them in other countries.And he’s for democracy, but he supports monarchies and Israeli apartheid.He’s for government transparency, but wants Snowden to stand trial.He’s independent, but has always supported the corporate Democratic Party candidates.He’s against police violence, but thinks the police are a socialist institution.He voted against the Iraq War, but then voted to fund it.He’s battling the Washington establishment, but he’s a lifelong professional politician.He’s against Hillary Clinton, but has pledged to support her after she wins the primary.He’s a democratic socialist, but assures us he will not threaten capitalism.And he has proclaimed that his vote in Iowa was the beginning of a Political Revolution...So - he’s getting movement activists off the streets and signing them up to strengthen the Democratic Party, a party that destroys progressive movements, so he can lead the revolution that will end Democratic Party politics, in order to move to a kind of socialism that preserves capitalism? I'll be honest, I've never completely understood this line of reasoning. The guy is running in the elections of the American empire. Obviously he's not a revolutionary. But participating in a 4-year ritual and being "pulled off the streets" are quite different things. It is in the nature of capitalism and its institutions to attempt to co-opt resistance movements. Any movement worth supporting will be able to survive Bernie Sanders. But more importantly, how can anyone deny that having a Bernie Sanders on stage challenging the Clinton aristocracy, its decades of Zionist/neocon warmongering, neoliberal economic planning, and chardonnay liberalism is not opening doors for us? Bernie is not a Communist or a socialist and his credentials fail to deliver what we want, but prior to Bernie it was almost impossible to have the discussion at all. The problem with these kinds of assessments of mainstream political candidates is that they are applying the measure we use as advocates, socialists, and so on to the way we measure establishment representatives. There should be a different calculus, namely whether or not Bernie's running will open doors for us. In the event of a Hillary presidency the mere fact is that Bernie-like candidates, whether they are members of the Democratic Party or not, will force HRC to have to address her left flank (AKA us) and has made it clear exactly how large that flank is. Moreover, whoever he endorses in the event that he loses (something that isn't completely decided yet depending on how much he can capitalize on the Iowa "coin toss victory" and the debate performance), the simple fact is he injected "the war on the billionaire class" into mainstream discussion. I am not personally a fan of lesser-evilism. Lesser evilism is stupid, as it ignores that within undemocratic elections, the issue isn't whether A is a better candidate than B, the issue is whether A's differences from B are outweighed by his/her similarities from B. I don't think anyone can deny that Bernie's similarities with HRC are limited given the vast differences they have in policy. Hence, Bernie is worth a vote even if it is essentially a protest vote. We need to divide the ruling institutions and their representatives while consolidating revolutionary causes. Bernie performs the former role even though he would be a complete flop if his function were the latter. For the purposes of the latter, we need to organize in ways that will be highly functional after the election regardless of who wins. *That *is how we make sure "left-liberals" aren't "pulled off the streets" for Bernie. When Bernie's campaign dies (if it does) we can still gather the remnants. My $0.02. - Amith On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > By "shunning" I wasn't suggesting that united front actions were > impermissible with them. Granted, I didn't define who, how and when to shun > them. > What I meant was that on the level of political analysis, we have the d
Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * By "shunning" I wasn't suggesting that united front actions were impermissible with them. Granted, I didn't define who, how and when to shun them. What I meant was that on the level of political analysis, we have the duty to tell Socialist Action to stop supporting genocidal maniacs, and to educate potential recruits to SA about their bankruptcy. And to open a dialogue about what a principled antiwar/solidarity movement could look like. On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > On 2/5/16 2:31 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote: > >> Good for Mike A.! >> Both in general, and for this in particular: >> "... those who support, directly or indirectly, butchers like Assad and >> Putin should be shunned." >> (This would mean, by the way, shunning Socialist Action... ) >> See his book at: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Insurgent-Images-Agitprop-Murals-Alewitz/dp/1583670343 >> > > Shunning is problematic. > > I don't think that Syria can be a litmus test for left unity even though > the positions adopted, for example, by the Alan Woods sect are ghastly. > > For example, if there was a protest against fascists in Britain, you can > expect this sect, CounterFire, and other pro-Russian leftists to be > involved in the organizing. It, of course, is their contradiction that the > fascists are likely to agree more with Alan Woods than with them on Putin. > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/5/16 2:31 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote: Good for Mike A.! Both in general, and for this in particular: "... those who support, directly or indirectly, butchers like Assad and Putin should be shunned." (This would mean, by the way, shunning Socialist Action... ) See his book at: http://www.amazon.com/Insurgent-Images-Agitprop-Murals-Alewitz/dp/1583670343 Shunning is problematic. I don't think that Syria can be a litmus test for left unity even though the positions adopted, for example, by the Alan Woods sect are ghastly. For example, if there was a protest against fascists in Britain, you can expect this sect, CounterFire, and other pro-Russian leftists to be involved in the organizing. It, of course, is their contradiction that the fascists are likely to agree more with Alan Woods than with them on Putin. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Good for Mike A.! Both in general, and for this in particular: "... those who support, directly or indirectly, butchers like Assad and Putin should be shunned." (This would mean, by the way, shunning Socialist Action... ) See his book at: http://www.amazon.com/Insurgent-Images-Agitprop-Murals-Alewitz/dp/1583670343 On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 12:58 PM, Michael Yates via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > In my post, the words from "What a complete waste of time" on are mine not > Mike Alewitz's. > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * In my post, the words from "What a complete waste of time" on are mine not Mike Alewitz's. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Mike Alewitz on Bernie Sanders
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * >From the fine artist, Mike Alewitz's Facebook page: UNDERSTANDING THE SANDERS REVOLUTION Let me see if I get this correctly: Bernie Sanders went on demonstrations in the early 1960s, but then took a 50-year break until 2014.So he skipped the anti-Vietnam War movement, the women’s movement and the other critical social movements of his generation.Now he supports working people, but thinks its ok to bomb them in other countries.And he’s for democracy, but he supports monarchies and Israeli apartheid.He’s for government transparency, but wants Snowden to stand trial.He’s independent, but has always supported the corporate Democratic Party candidates.He’s against police violence, but thinks the police are a socialist institution.He voted against the Iraq War, but then voted to fund it.He’s battling the Washington establishment, but he’s a lifelong professional politician.He’s against Hillary Clinton, but has pledged to support her after she wins the primary.He’s a democratic socialist, but assures us he will not threaten capitalism.And he has proclaimed that his vote in Iowa was the beginning of a Political Revolution...So - he’s getting movement activists off the streets and signing them up to strengthen the Democratic Party, a party that destroys progressive movements, so he can lead the revolution that will end Democratic Party politics, in order to move to a kind of socialism that preserves capitalism? Makes total sense.___ What a complete waste of time by left-liberals devoting their energies to tweeting and facebooking every ten seconds during Sanders-Clinton debates, going on and on about a Sanders' revolution. Meanwhile, death and destruction are rained down upon people all over the world, ignored by both candidates, who would do nothing to end it. And the environment gets more unlivable by the month, and again neither candidate gives a shit about it and has no plan to change things. Just as those who support, directly or indirectly, butchers like Assad and Putin should be shunned, so too should those who more or less demand that leftists support Sanders be, scorned and shunned. They are enemies of the left and make no mistake about it. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
