Re: [Marxism] Oxymoron alerty! (was Re: NATO over Libya vs. IDF over Gaza)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Just my opinion, but I find Clay Claiborne's posts unremarkable. I notice no one is taking on Richard Seymour's devastating critique of Clay's "analysis" of the bombing of Libya. Why not? Clay's allies never hesitate to trash anyone else who points out the errors in Clay's ways. Of course, it could be that Seymour has exposed a naked emperor. And if Clay writes 10,000 more words about this, will our knowledge increase? I doubt it. And now we are hearing that short comments just won't do. Well, it was Clay, wasn't it, who referenced for us all to marvel at, his ten most important tweets of 2013. This really too my breath away when I read it. My division chair was once going on about how the IT revolution had doubled his productivity. I said, well, two times zero is zero. We all have a way of defending those we like and trashing those we do not. And using guilt by association whenever possible. And to see the world in black and white terms. The problem arises when we convince ourselves that these are virtues. Here's a question for all you serial, logorrheic bloggers out there: has anything you have ever written saved a life, paid someone's rent, stopped a war, built a movement, fed the hungry, raised a child, or, for that matter, given anyone a moment's pleasure or made someone laugh? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Oxymoron alerty! (was Re: NATO over Libya vs. IDF over Gaza)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 26, 2014, at 11:05 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: On 7/26/14 10:33 AM, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote: On Jul 26, 2014, at 9:16 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: ...a blogger who has made his positions clear in hundreds of thousands of words... Shane, when is the last time you wrote anything longer than 500 words? Long ago I realized the truth of the popular expression "brevity is the soul of wit." But the maxim can be taken to extremes, as typified by the number of relevant words (zero!) that typically are to be found in LP's snarking responses to coherently expressed arguments. Of course, there are complex theoretical topics that demand extended discussion. Last year on the MR website, and on this list, I published a substantial "Defense of Marx's Law" in refutation of M. Heinrich. LP, from his question, seems not to have noticed. It's true, my length didn't quite reach the hundreds of thousands of words he needs to make something clear to him. Shane Mage "scientific discovery is basically recognition of obvious realities that self-interest or ideology have kept everybody from paying attention to" Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Oxymoron alerty! (was Re: NATO over Libya vs. IDF over Gaza)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > > Unfortunately, this list for most users is useful only because of the > occasionally linked articles with a few words of comment. > > Hundred of thousands of words aren't so useful. > Clay Claiborne, Louis Proyect, Sergii Kutnii and others have posted a lot of material about the facts about what is going on in Ukraine, Syria, Libya, etc., and refuting the incredible stream of lies from the revisionist world. I don't agree with all of CC or LP's analysis, but I think the material they have posted is extremely valuable, and I hope they continue to post more. Not everyone has the time to go through all the ins and outs of every claim, or the connections to find the statements from the more serious sources. For myself, I don't find it especially useful when people repeat a "few words" of condemnation of the masses who have risen against backward forces which the revisionists embrace. One can find that anywhere, from RT to Workers World to certain bourgeois liberals. Well, those words are useful here, but only insofar as they inspire others to refute them. Since the crisis in Ukraine began, I have looked for sources on what's going on. I have read much material from various sources. The material from various Ukrainian trends which are independent of the revisionists has been quite valuable, although these trends have had a hard time developing an adequate political stand. (For example, the material from the Autonomous Workers Union is quite significant, and one sees the dedicated efforts of activists to move Ukraine forward, but their anarchist stand blocks them from figuring out what to do in a complicated situation since as that of Maidan and anti-Maidan.) It is said by some that there are many divisions among Ukrainians, and even among Ukrainian workers, coal miners, etc. It's true that there are divisions. But the history since independence shows that a certain slow, zigzag progress takes place. And without Russian interference, the present complicated political situation would not have given rise to armed conflict. Independence in 1991 did not bring utopia to Ukraine, and Ukraine has suffered immensely from the economic miseries of modern capitalism. But there has been slow political progress among the Ukrainian masses; the situation is still freer in Ukraine than in Russia; and the political progress is important for preparing the masses for something better. The overthrow of Yanukovych was a typical Ukrainian political event, a bit of progress and a lot of complication. (That's actually how things move forward everywhere, insofar as they do sometimes move forward, in the present situation in which the workers movement and the left are disorganized and in crisis everywhere.) But it took Russian government interference to turn this into mass bloodshed, and it takes revisionist blindness to fail to see the important of the masses having risen up against Yanukovych, and having risen up despite the lack of a mass political force that could represent their interests. And it takes revisionist blindness to judge things solely from the standpoint of the rivalry of the EU or Eurasian Union capitalists. It's no secret that the Russian government and Russian chauvinists don't accept the right to self-determination of Ukraine and other former regions of the USSR. It's not secret that Putin acted punitively, even while Yanukovych was still president, out of fear that Ukraine wouldn't take part in Eurasianism. The Russian government and the revisionists are ready to fight to the last Ukrainian (whether Russian ethnic Ukrainian or not) to force Ukraine to do what they want. This is a crime against both the people of Russia as well as those of Ukraine, and those who close their eyes to what's going on are harming the interests of the Russian working class (in Russia) as well as those of Ukrainian working people (including Russophones and Russian ethnic Ukrainians). -- Joseph Green > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/jgreen%40communistvoice.org --- Joseph Green m...@communistvoice.org Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Oxymoron alerty! (was Re: NATO over Libya vs. IDF over Gaza)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/26/14 12:01 PM, Vladimiro Giacche' wrote: Unfortunately, this list for most users is useful only because of the occasionally linked articles with a few words of comment. Hundred of thousands of words aren't so useful. Particularly when they are mostly devoted, as unfortunately often occurs also in this list, not to theoretically relevant questions, but on geopolitical issues and - which is worst - are aimed to explain that Ghaddafi, Assad, now perhaps Putin are to overthrown. Without caring of what really happened in Libya (where a state was simply destroyed by NATO), in Syria (where the same is happening thanks to the "insurgents" paid from US and the notoriously marxists in power in Saudi Arabia), and in Kiew (Nazis in power, massacre in odessa, bombing of civilians in the east, illegalisation of the communist party and so on, the treaty with the UE that split the country [the former president of the European Commission Prodi - not a marxist indeed - admitted and reproached it!], the NATO continuing expansion toward the East in a Wehrmacht-like strategy, etc etc). Only about Gaza I recently read more equilibrated views. And now I read that someone should write more... Of course they should write more. You just attempted to analyze global conflicts in 50 words. I would be embarrassed to make such an attempt. But I imagine that it must be tough for you to be subbed here when your sympathies are obviously with Stalinism. In a way, it is too bad that the A-List disappeared (at least I think it did) when servers got switched at the U. of Utah. It was a place where you could read 35 messages a day about how evil NATO was and how beneficent China was, especially through its lifting up the Dark Continent. I imagine that it must be tough for Stalinists to start something up on the Internet. That's the price of 90 years of ideological conformity, I suppose. It is much easier to rely on what party bosses told you was right Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Oxymoron alerty! (was Re: NATO over Libya vs. IDF over Gaza)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Unfortunately, this list for most users is useful only because of the occasionally linked articles with a few words of comment. Hundred of thousands of words aren't so useful. Particularly when they are mostly devoted, as unfortunately often occurs also in this list, not to theoretically relevant questions, but on geopolitical issues and - which is worst - are aimed to explain that Ghaddafi, Assad, now perhaps Putin are to overthrown. Without caring of what really happened in Libya (where a state was simply destroyed by NATO), in Syria (where the same is happening thanks to the "insurgents" paid from US and the notoriously marxists in power in Saudi Arabia), and in Kiew (Nazis in power, massacre in odessa, bombing of civilians in the east, illegalisation of the communist party and so on, the treaty with the UE that split the country [the former president of the European Commission Prodi - not a marxist indeed - admitted and reproached it!], the NATO continuing expansion toward the East in a Wehrmacht-like strategy, etc etc). Only about Gaza I recently read more equilibrated views. And now I read that someone should write more... I would on the contrary say: write better if you can. If you can't, write less. > > On 7/26/14 10:33 AM, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote: >> On Jul 26, 2014, at 9:16 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: >>> ...a blogger who has made his positions clear in hundreds of thousands >>> of words... >> > > Shane, when is the last time you wrote anything longer than 500 words? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Oxymoron alerty! (was Re: NATO over Libya vs. IDF over Gaza)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 26, 2014, at 11:05 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: > Shane, when is the last time you wrote anything longer than 500 words? When > you were a member of the Robertson-Wolforth faction in the SWP? Your PhD > thesis on the FROP? Don't you realize what a waste of time and bandwidth your > sniping is? What accounts for your attention deficit disorder? Too many LSD > trips? Oh yeah, I’m trigger, trigger happy Yes I'm trigger, trigger happy Oh baby, I’m trigger, trigger happy Yes I'm trigger, trigger happy Oh I’m so trigger, trigger happy Yes I'm trigger, trigger happy Better watch out, punk, or I'm gonna have to blow you away -Weird Al Yankovic “Trigger Happy” Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Oxymoron alerty! (was Re: NATO over Libya vs. IDF over Gaza)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/26/14 10:33 AM, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote: On Jul 26, 2014, at 9:16 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: ...a blogger who has made his positions clear in hundreds of thousands of words... Shane, when is the last time you wrote anything longer than 500 words? When you were a member of the Robertson-Wolforth faction in the SWP? Your PhD thesis on the FROP? Don't you realize what a waste of time and bandwidth your sniping is? What accounts for your attention deficit disorder? Too many LSD trips? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Oxymoron alerty! (was Re: NATO over Libya vs. IDF over Gaza)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 26, 2014, at 9:16 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: ...a blogger who has made his positions clear in hundreds of thousands of words... Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
