Re: [Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

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. . . but, that, of course, is the issue.  The action carries an implicit
strategy with it . . . in that it essentially precludes other strategies.


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 11:18 PM, Glenn Kissack via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Dan:
>
> Just one person’s opinion, but I admire what you did. You spent weeks
> educating people about the dangers posed by racists like Spencer, and you
> organized people to confront him and his goons. “A few hundred antifascist
> counter protesters” sounds good to me. And your action convinced Spencer
> that having these campus provocations “are not fun” anymore! That's a
> pretty big accomplishment.
>
> I admire Antifa for bloodying fascists. The problem I have with Antifa is
> they don’t seem to have a strategy for organizing a movement that might one
> day take power and eliminate the really big fascists.
>
> Glenn
>
> > The issue of using physical force to intimidate fascists and deter them
> > from organizing has come up on this list in the past. One week ago
> Richard
> > Spencer spoke at Michigan State University. A few hundred antifascist
> > counter protesters including myself gathered outside the venue in an
> > attempt to block Spencer and attendees from entering the building. About
> > 150 tickets were sold, and only a couple dozen Spencer fans made it into
> > the venue. Many turned away after seeing our numbers. Some, including a
> > contingent of about 30 featuring Matt Heimbach and his Neo-Nazi
> Traditional
> > Workers Party, were turned away only after physical confrontation. Many
> of
> > those who did make it into the venue had to be escorted one at a time by
> > six or so cops through our crowds. This was undoubtedly an unpleasant
> > experience for them. Some were bloodied and some had horse shit thrown on
> > them.
> >
> > Since then, Spencer announced via a youtube video that he would no longer
> > be making planned public speaking appearances
> >  right-leader-richard-spencer-says-his-rallies-arent-fun-anymore/416579002/
> >
>
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Re: [Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited

[Glenn Kissack via Marxism]

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Dan:

Just one person’s opinion, but I admire what you did. You spent weeks educating 
people about the dangers posed by racists like Spencer, and you organized 
people to confront him and his goons. “A few hundred antifascist counter 
protesters” sounds good to me. And your action convinced Spencer that having 
these campus provocations “are not fun” anymore! That's a pretty big 
accomplishment. 

I admire Antifa for bloodying fascists. The problem I have with Antifa is they 
don’t seem to have a strategy for organizing a movement that might one day take 
power and eliminate the really big fascists.

Glenn

> The issue of using physical force to intimidate fascists and deter them
> from organizing has come up on this list in the past. One week ago Richard
> Spencer spoke at Michigan State University. A few hundred antifascist
> counter protesters including myself gathered outside the venue in an
> attempt to block Spencer and attendees from entering the building. About
> 150 tickets were sold, and only a couple dozen Spencer fans made it into
> the venue. Many turned away after seeing our numbers. Some, including a
> contingent of about 30 featuring Matt Heimbach and his Neo-Nazi Traditional
> Workers Party, were turned away only after physical confrontation. Many of
> those who did make it into the venue had to be escorted one at a time by
> six or so cops through our crowds. This was undoubtedly an unpleasant
> experience for them. Some were bloodied and some had horse shit thrown on
> them.
> 
> Since then, Spencer announced via a youtube video that he would no longer
> be making planned public speaking appearances
> 

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Re: [Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/13/18 5:56 PM, Saman Sepehri via Marxism wrote:

Punching a Nazi is a red herring. Who cares if you punch one.


Look, punching Nazis is easy. You don't need to have a clue about 
strategy or tactics to do it. In fact, the video of Richard Spencer 
getting punched that went viral could have been done with someone who 
has never organized anything in his life.


Furthermore, confrontations of this sort pose terrible risks. As I have 
pointed out, people are facing prison terms of more than 20 years for 
having been caught up in a black bloc action on Inauguration Day.


Finally, Richard Spencer has zero political consequences in the USA. If 
someone can persuade me that the labor movement will be strengthened by 
these antics or that transgender people will be able to use the bathroom 
of their choice or--relative to Michigan State University--that adjuncts 
will get the pay and benefits of other professors, I'll go out and punch 
a Nazi myself.

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Re: [Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited

[Saman Sepehri via Marxism]

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Good for you Dan. Keep up the good work. One on one encounters only bring risk 
to you. You did not do that. You organized what you could. Thank you no 
matter what others on this list may lecture you about. I do not want to wait 
for some "Mass Action" to fall out of the sky.  Mass action is organized by 
smaller collective actions that over time emboldens our side, sets an example 
and shows success.  
Punching a Nazi is a red herring. Who cares if you punch one. The point is,  
individual versus more collective action, and whether it  builds our side 
or just nmakes us feel good.  Lecturing others about what not to do can be just 
as irrelevent to building anything, and can be a feel good moment as punching 
anyone.
S.
  From: Dan Michniewicz via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
 To: Saman Sepehri <p70vo...@yahoo.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 11:37 AM
 Subject: [Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited
   
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The issue of using physical force to intimidate fascists and deter them
from organizing has come up on this list in the past. One week ago Richard
Spencer spoke at Michigan State University. A few hundred antifascist
counter protesters including myself gathered outside the venue in an
attempt to block Spencer and attendees from entering the building. About
150 tickets were sold, and only a couple dozen Spencer fans made it into
the venue. Many turned away after seeing our numbers. Some, including a
contingent of about 30 featuring Matt Heimbach and his Neo-Nazi Traditional
Workers Party, were turned away only after physical confrontation. Many of
those who did make it into the venue had to be escorted one at a time by
six or so cops through our crowds. This was undoubtedly an unpleasant
experience for them. Some were bloodied and some had horse shit thrown on
them.

Since then, Spencer announced via a youtube video that he would no longer
be making planned public speaking appearances
<https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/12/alt-right-leader-richard-spencer-says-his-rallies-arent-fun-anymore/416579002/>
.

It's important to note that a diversity of tactics besides physical
intimidation were employed both on the day of his appearance and the days
leading up to it. Notably, the locations and businesses where the fascists
hoped to meet and socialize were made public, and businesses cancelled
their reservations.
<https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2018/03/04/we-found-out-where-the-alt-right-is-holding-its-secret-conference-in-metro-detroit>

My point here though is that physical confrontation--and yes, punching
nazis in the face--played a central role in deplatforming and driving the
figurehead of the Alt-right out of public spaces. Spencer and the TWP have
represented the core of this explicitly fascist movement, and I expect that
the young white men who it has been attracting will be looking elsewhere
going forward to seek refuge from their economic and cultural atomization.
There's more violent options including Atomwaffen and alternatively the
"alt-light" featuring voices like Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson.

Many of us had been spending considerable amounts of time over the past
months organizing teach-ins and doing other work centered around Spencer's
visit to MSU and also a planned visit to the University of Michigan. Now
that he's no longer making public appearances, these lefties are now freed
up and can hopefully focus on less "defensive" measures.  Myself and other
locals are emboldened. Are we wrong to feel this way?
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Re: [Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/13/18 5:10 PM, Jeff via Marxism wrote:
In other words, aim to unite those groups and then carefully consider 
the best tactics that we can unite around. But it is counter-productive 
to denounce either just because you've decided their tactics are inferior.



https://louisproyect.org/2018/03/07/the-alt-right-and-antifa-way-past-their-shelf-life/
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Re: [Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited

[Jeff via Marxism]

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On 2018-03-13 21:11, Dan Michniewicz via Marxism wrote:


 Our numbers were diminished by the fact that the faith
community and MSU college dems/republicans held a separate event far 
away

from the venue.


Which is very typical of liberals: avoiding confrontation to show that 
we are better than them and won't just stoop to their level. Which is 
true, but it also inadvertently sends the message that the fascists can 
get away with their hate campaign just because it consists of "free 
speech." When the fascists enter OUR territory then defending it is our 
right and how we do that is a question of tactics, only.


Everyone reading this prefers mass action to small actions, including 
Dan, and it is insulting for Louis to lecture us in that regard. Faced 
with a small action at the site of the fascists, or a larger and more 
inclusive action at a remote location (where we have thus retreated to), 
I wouldn't call one "wrong" and one "right." If you go to the 
confrontational action, then go there with the aim of expanding 
participation (thus making it safe for all to attend). If you go to the 
remote action, go there with the aim of increasing its militancy and 
effectiveness in shutting down the fascists (rather than ceding 
territory).


In other words, aim to unite those groups and then carefully consider 
the best tactics that we can unite around. But it is counter-productive 
to denounce either just because you've decided their tactics are 
inferior. Getting the liberals and anarchists to fight each other is 
exactly what the right wants to accomplish.


- Jeff




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Re: [Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited

[Dan Michniewicz via Marxism]

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Yeah if we had enough people turn out the Nazis probably would not have
marched right into us, so you are right about that. That said, press
estimated anywhere from 500 to 1,000, which is quite a bit of people for a
small Midwest city. Our numbers were diminished by the fact that the faith
community and MSU college dems/republicans held a separate event far away
from the venue. Wonder which event Louis here would have turned out for.
There were many at the protest outside the venue who were not looking for a
fight.

On Mar 13, 2018 4:00 PM, "Louis Proyect via Marxism" <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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On 3/13/18 2:30 PM, Dan Michniewicz via Marxism wrote:

> Many of us had been spending considerable amounts of time over the past
> months organizing teach-ins and doing other work centered around Spencer's
> visit to MSU and also a planned visit to the University of Michigan. Now
> that he's no longer making public appearances, these lefties are now freed
> up and can hopefully focus on less "defensive" measures.  Myself and other
> locals are emboldened. Are we wrong to feel this way?
>

Yes, you are wrong. Street-fighting is a form of substitutionism. A mass
rally would have been much better since it would have drawn more people
into the protest especially those who are reluctant to use violence.
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Re: [Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/13/18 2:30 PM, Dan Michniewicz via Marxism wrote:

Many of us had been spending considerable amounts of time over the past
months organizing teach-ins and doing other work centered around Spencer's
visit to MSU and also a planned visit to the University of Michigan. Now
that he's no longer making public appearances, these lefties are now freed
up and can hopefully focus on less "defensive" measures.  Myself and other
locals are emboldened. Are we wrong to feel this way?


Yes, you are wrong. Street-fighting is a form of substitutionism. A mass 
rally would have been much better since it would have drawn more people 
into the protest especially those who are reluctant to use violence.

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[Marxism] Punching Nazis Revisited

[Dan Michniewicz via Marxism]

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The issue of using physical force to intimidate fascists and deter them
from organizing has come up on this list in the past. One week ago Richard
Spencer spoke at Michigan State University. A few hundred antifascist
counter protesters including myself gathered outside the venue in an
attempt to block Spencer and attendees from entering the building. About
150 tickets were sold, and only a couple dozen Spencer fans made it into
the venue. Many turned away after seeing our numbers. Some, including a
contingent of about 30 featuring Matt Heimbach and his Neo-Nazi Traditional
Workers Party, were turned away only after physical confrontation. Many of
those who did make it into the venue had to be escorted one at a time by
six or so cops through our crowds. This was undoubtedly an unpleasant
experience for them. Some were bloodied and some had horse shit thrown on
them.

Since then, Spencer announced via a youtube video that he would no longer
be making planned public speaking appearances

.

It's important to note that a diversity of tactics besides physical
intimidation were employed both on the day of his appearance and the days
leading up to it. Notably, the locations and businesses where the fascists
hoped to meet and socialize were made public, and businesses cancelled
their reservations.


My point here though is that physical confrontation--and yes, punching
nazis in the face--played a central role in deplatforming and driving the
figurehead of the Alt-right out of public spaces. Spencer and the TWP have
represented the core of this explicitly fascist movement, and I expect that
the young white men who it has been attracting will be looking elsewhere
going forward to seek refuge from their economic and cultural atomization.
There's more violent options including Atomwaffen and alternatively the
"alt-light" featuring voices like Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson.

Many of us had been spending considerable amounts of time over the past
months organizing teach-ins and doing other work centered around Spencer's
visit to MSU and also a planned visit to the University of Michigan. Now
that he's no longer making public appearances, these lefties are now freed
up and can hopefully focus on less "defensive" measures.  Myself and other
locals are emboldened. Are we wrong to feel this way?
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