[Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China's high speed rail plans,

[Lüko Willms]

Leonardo Kosloff (holmof...@hotmail.com) wrote on 2009-09-04 at 13:14:26 
in  about [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: 
China's high speed rail plans, :
 
 
> @Nestor: Well, then, what makes you think that the Chinese bureaucracy 
won't betray the interests of workers, China's and the world's over, just as 
Peron did? (...taking into account that it is already doing that, unless you 
want to "dialectically" abstract from the fact that the CCP is Washington's 
main creditor.)
> 
   The Chinese stalinists have alway betrayed the interests of workers in 
China and the world over, so is there anything new you have to say? 

   But what has that to do with the price of fish? 


Cheers, 
Lüko Willms
Frankfurt, Germany



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Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China's high speed rail plans,

[Lüko Willms]

S. Artesian (sartes...@earthlink.net) wrote on 2009-09-04 at 10:59:55 in  
about Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: 
China's high speed rail plans,:
> 
> 
> And what is that issue?  Let's review, according to LW and Nestor, the CCP 
> is not bowing down to capitalism, it is using capitalism to build 
> socialism;it is using capitalism to make the Chinese nation stronger; in 
> making the Chinese nation stronger, it, the embrace of capitalism is making 
> the proletariat stronger.

   No that is not the issue. Or only the issue with what you imagine, but you 
have to discuss your own products of your own fantasy with those people 
dealing with your mind, but not with me. What you attribute to me is 
completely the product of YOUR OWN IMAGINATION. 

  So, no need to deal with the rest of your stuff. 


Cheers, 
Lüko Willms
Frankfurt, Germany



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[Marxism] who uses which marxmail archive?

[Les Schaffer]

someone asked me about searching the archives,

   http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/index.htm

wishing it were faster.

i highly recommend using google search for fast searches, particularly 
for stuff that has been in the archives "for a while"; remember that 
google will not scan the archives everyday like our search engine does. 
but, google is fast and accurate.

for example, type this into google search:

   "John Brown" site:archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism

finds much stuff (215 hits) from 2004-2006.

Les





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[Marxism] Town Hall Yell Meetings

[Greg McDonald]

  http://www.redstateupdate.com/video/death-panels-guns-health-care

The boys from Murfreesboro strike again


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Re: [Marxism] John Brown anniversary

[Mark Lause]

The Bible Thumpers have made every effort to kidnap John Brown
posthumously, but he was never intolerant or bigoted in his
Christianity.  I think he was certainly one of us in every important
sense...though I can't for the life of me imagine him wading through
emails.  He used to pace in the back of meetings and complain
"talk, talk, talk."

Scholars usually make every effort to misrepresent his views on race
as somehow unique, but he represented a genuinely egalitarian current
in abolitionism.  (I've plugged John Stauffer's book on the Radical
Abolitionists before and am doing so again here)

His comrades in Kansas included people like the Wattles
brothers...Augustus and John Otis Wattles, Fourierists whose community
at Utopia, Ohio had been washed away by the river a few years before
the struggle for Kansas began.  The Wattles had started an illegal
school here for blacks, and one of their students was Peter H. Clark,
later known as the first prominent black socialist in U.S. history.

Brown himself saw slavery as the greatest evil of his day...that
capital should own laboring people...and he was absolutely correct in
that, of course.  However, he was always critical of the essential
ethos of capitalism, criticized land monopoly, etc.  His allies out in
Kansas organized the first territorial women's rights organization
there in 1859...

The abolitionists hired and sent him, as a military advisor, Hugh
Forbes, almost always misrepresented in the literature as a mercenary
or crackpot.  Forbes was the secretary of what became the First
International in NYC, but had been in the British Army and was a
veteran of the Italian revolutionary movements under Garibaldi.  He is
usually trashed in the literature because he was critical of the
Harpers ferry scheme...and for good reason...

Brown's friend and early biographer, Dick Hinton was a former Chartist
who later helped officer one of the first black regiments raised...and
the first to see action.  After the war, he went on to organize
sections of the First International and help to lead the early
Socialistic Labor Party.

It's worth noting that Hinton died back in London around the turn of
the century, while he was on a research trip, hunting down old
Chartists, etc.  John Brown had been in Europe in the wake of the
1848-49 revolutions.  And Hinton was always convinced that he had some
direct ties to anticapitalist radicals there.

ML


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Re: [Marxism] John Brown anniversary

[Tom Cod]

Didn't Owen Brown serve as an officer in the Union Army during the Civil War?

> Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 20:15:16 -0400
> From: piein...@igc.org
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] John Brown anniversary
> To: t...@hotmail.com
> 
> About 10 years ago maybe, Noel Ignatieff and the Race Traitor folks 
> tried to start up an annual commemoration of Brown's martyrdom at the 
> farm in Elba (Lake Placid) upstate New York where Brown and several of 
> his sons are buried under a huge glacial boulder (and practically in the 
> shadow of the ski jump from the Winter Olympics.  Some friends and I 
> went once.  Russell Banks (author of "Cloudsplitter" written in the 
> voice of Brown's surviving son, Owen -- whom was named I think for 
> Robert Owen) spoke and some black churches brought buses up from 
> Harlem.  I haven't heard anything about it in more recent years.  So I 
> assume it stopped happening. But check with them. Maybe they're doing 
> something this year.  Somebody definitely should have an observance. 
> Either there and/or at Harper's Ferry.
> 
> jay
> 
> 
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Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1

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Re: [Marxism] John Brown anniversary

[Jay Moore]

About 10 years ago maybe, Noel Ignatieff and the Race Traitor folks 
tried to start up an annual commemoration of Brown's martyrdom at the 
farm in Elba (Lake Placid) upstate New York where Brown and several of 
his sons are buried under a huge glacial boulder (and practically in the 
shadow of the ski jump from the Winter Olympics.  Some friends and I 
went once.  Russell Banks (author of "Cloudsplitter" written in the 
voice of Brown's surviving son, Owen -- whom was named I think for 
Robert Owen) spoke and some black churches brought buses up from 
Harlem.  I haven't heard anything about it in more recent years.  So I 
assume it stopped happening. But check with them. Maybe they're doing 
something this year.  Somebody definitely should have an observance. 
Either there and/or at Harper's Ferry.

jay


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Re: [Marxism] Interesting China article

[Marv Gandall]

Louis posted:

> http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/22515
==
Along the same lines, but from a right-wing source:

"China is running away with the green technology prize. It has conquered a
third of the world market for solar cells and is on a breakneck course to
build 100 gigawatts of wind turbines by 2020...

"The credit crunch has been brutal for solar start-ups in the West, but not
for Chinese firms with access to almost free finance from the state banking
system.

"While the West bails out banks, China is spending a big chunk of its $600bn
stimulus on 'clean tech' projects and a smarter grid. Yes, you still have to
wear a face mask to breathe in the soot-blackened industrial hubs of the
interior. By the same token, the solar-and-wind hub of Baoding has become
the first carbon-positive city in the world."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/6077374/China-powers-ahead-as-it-seizes-the-green-energy-crown-from-Europe.html



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[Marxism] Interesting China article

[Louis Proyect]

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/22515


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[Marxism] Phil Gasper on Iran

[Louis Proyect]

http://www.isreview.org/issues/67/critthink-iran.shtml
ISR Issue 67, September–October 2009

CRITICAL THINKING by PHIL GASPER

Which side are you on?

Why are some U.S. leftists siding with the repressive Iranian regime 
against pro-democracy protesters?

At the beginning of August, the government of Iran launched a trial 
against more than 100 of its most prominent opponents, claiming that 
they had conspired with foreign governments to overthrow the Iranian 
regime by organizing a campaign to discredit the legitimacy of the 
country’s presidential election in June. Among those accused were former 
vice president Mohammad Ali Abtahi, former deputy interior minister 
Mohammad Atrianfar, former deputy economic minister Mohsen 
Safai-Farahani, former deputy speaker of the Parliament Behzad Nabavi, 
and Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi, as well as various Iranians 
living outside the country. That the conservative theocratic Iranian 
government, which has faced widespread street protests since the 
disputed election, should respond to its critics in this way was perhaps 
not surprising. Sadly, however, over the past few months, similar 
accusations have been leveled against the protesters by sections of the 
U.S. left.

In fact a fierce debate has been raging on the left about the character 
of the protests in Iran and whether or not anti-imperialists in this 
country should support them. Neo-Stalinist groups like the Party for 
Socialism and Liberation (PSL) and the organization from which it split 
a few years ago, the Workers World Party (WWP), have predictably 
denounced the protesters as stooges of Western governments, and accused 
them of being secretly funded by U.S. government organizations like the 
National Endowment for Democracy.

Both PSL and the WWP operate on the principle that my enemy’s enemy is 
my friend, and have a history of supporting the repression of popular 
movements that challenge regimes that are opposed by the U.S. 
government. In 1956, the WWP supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary to 
crush a mass workers’ rebellion calling for greater freedom, and which 
had begun to establish factory councils. Similarly, the WWP backed the 
suppression of Solidarity, the mass independent trade union in Poland in 
the early 1980s, and the Chinese government’s brutal crackdown on the 
Tiananmen Square protests in 1989. In the case of Iran, the argument is 
that simply challenging the regime—no matter how repressive it may 
be—plays into the hands of the U.S. and other Western imperialist 
powers, who would dearly like to reverse the results of the country’s 
Islamic revolution in 1979.

Similar arguments have been made by a variety of other influential 
figures on the left including the Marxist sociologist James Petras, 
radical media critics Edward Herman (who has co-authored several books 
with Noam Chomsky) and David Peterson, and Yoshie Furuhashi, editor of 
MRZine, the daily Web magazine of the socialist journal Monthly Review. 
In fact MRZine has turned itself into a forum for critics of the Iranian 
protests and for apologetics for Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, 
leading one member of the Monthly Review editorial board to resign.

Much of the controversy has focused on the election itself, in which 
official results gave Ahmadinejad an unexpected landslide victory over 
the main opposition candidate, Mir-Hossein Mousavi. With an official 
turnout of 85 percent, Ahmadinejad was awarded 63 percent of the votes 
versus Mousavi’s 34 percent. The results were so hard to believe that 
they resulted in the biggest street protests in Iran since the 1979 
Revolution. But Petras, Herman and Peterson, Furuhashi, and others all 
argue that there is no serious evidence that the results were rigged. 
According to Herman and Peterson, for example, in an article published 
in late July, allegations of “massive vote fraud and a possible Mousavi 
majority are not based on any credible evidence whatsoever.”

Herman and Peterson point to a preelection poll that gave Ahmadinejad 34 
percent of the vote and Mousavi 14 percent. But it is worth noting that 
the poll was conducted by telephone from outside the country by the 
Washington organization Terror Free Tomorrow: The Center for Public 
Opinion. As the Iranian historian Ervand Abrahamian points out, “the 
name and location of the polling organization” may well have influenced 
the results.

In any case, the poll was taken in May, several weeks before the 
election. Abrahamian notes, “Once the actual electoral campaign—by law 
restricted to just ten days—got started, the race became much tighter.” 
Abrahamian points to three factors that may have shifted public opinion:

 • First, a series of TV debates in which Ahmadinejad was generally 
thought to do poorly. Herman and Peterson dispute this, claiming that 
Ahmadinejad won the debates, but their only source for this is Time 
magazine journalist Joe Klein, who does not speak Farsi;

 

Re: [Marxism] Cockburn takes jeff mackler to task

[Tom Cod]

Well, at least Socialist Action and Jeff Mackler are involved in the anti-war 
struggle to the extent that they would earn the public animosity of Cockburn, a 
nationally known columnist, a fact that by itself merits respect from those of 
us who might not have been in SF during this particular incident.  



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Re: [Marxism] U.S. Suspends $30 Million To Honduras

[Bhaskar Sunkara]

Actually I'm sorry I linked to yesterday's article.  Here is today's news

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/imf-may-withold-aid-honduras/

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Bhaskar Sunkara
wrote:

> Reports right now make it seem likely that the IMF is going to withhold
> those funds in the wake of Clinton's announcement.
>
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/sep/03/imf-honduras-aid-zelaya
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Intense Red  wrote:
>
>>
>>   And on the third hand, Democracy Now! reports this morning that the IMF
>> is giving Honduras $150 million, which more than makes up for the loss of
>> the $30 million from the US.
>>
>>

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Re: [Marxism] U.S. Suspends $30 Million To Honduras

[Bhaskar Sunkara]

Reports right now make it seem likely that the IMF is going to withhold
those funds in the wake of Clinton's announcement.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/sep/03/imf-honduras-aid-zelaya

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Intense Red  wrote:

>
>   And on the third hand, Democracy Now! reports this morning that the IMF
> is giving Honduras $150 million, which more than makes up for the loss of
> the $30 million from the US.
>
>

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[Marxism] Where jazz meets hip hop

[c b]

Where jazz meets hip hop
Detroit-born Karriem Riggins grooves at the corner
By W. Kim Heron




http://metrotimes.com/music/story.asp?id=14332

SEE ALSO
More Jazz Stories
Jazz fest highlights (9/2/2009)
Some high notes among fest offerings

Life lesson (9/2/2009)
A tribute to Eric Dolphy — years in the making

The last king of swing (9/2/2009)
Gerald Wilson paints his hometown in sound

More from W. Kim Heron
Jazz fest highlights (9/2/2009)
Some high notes among fest offerings

Life lesson (9/2/2009)
A tribute to Eric Dolphy — years in the making

The last king of swing (9/2/2009)
Gerald Wilson paints his hometown in sound


By W. Kim Heron


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[Marxism] Cockburn takes jeff mackler to task

[Eric Johnson]

http://www.counterpunch.com/cockburn09042009.html

CounterPunch Diary 
Deeper Into the Tunnel 
By ALEXANDER COCKBURN 

As General Stan McChrystal plans his march on Washington to demand more troops 
in Afghanistan the antiwar movement lies on the sidewalk, as inert and forlorn 
as a homeless person in the rain at a street corner, too dejected even to hold 
up a sign. This is at a time that as Mark Ames has just pointed out, “Obama is 
doubling down in Afghanistan with more troops deployed now than the Soviets 
ever had.” Yes, add up US troops and contractors and you get a US invasion of 
Afghanistan bigger than the Soviet force at its peak.

Is there any sign of life in a movement that marshaled hundreds of thousands to 
march in protest against war in Iraq?  Ah, but those were the Bush years. Now 
we have a Democrat in the White House.

One person hasn’t tossed aside her peace sign. Cindy Sheehan sees war as war, 
whether the battle standard is being waved by a white moron from Midland, Texas 
or an eloquent black man from Chicago. But when she called for protesters to 
join her on Martha’s Vineyard to stand outside Obama’s holiday roost for four 
days at the end of August there was a marked contrast to the response she got 
when she rallied thousands to stand outside Bush’s Crawford lair.

As John Walsh described it here last week, “the silence was,  as Cindy put it 
in an email to this writer, ‘crashingly deafening.’  Where are the email 
appeals to join Cindy from The Nation or from AFSC or Peace Action or 
“Progressive” Democrats of America (PDA) or even Code Pink?   Or United for 
Peace and Justice. And what about MoveOn although it was long ago thoroughly 
discredited as principled opponents of war or principled in any way shape or 
form except slavish loyalty to the ‘other’ War Party.  And of course sundry 
‘socialist’ organizations are also missing in action since their particular 
dogma will not be front and center.  These worthies and many others have 
vanished into the fog of Obama’s wars.”

Before he joined Sheehan on Martha’s Vineyard, Walsh says he contacted several 
of the leaders of the “official” peace movement in the Boston area – AFSC, 
Peace Action, Green Party of MA (aka Green Rainbow Party) and some others.  Not 
so much as the courtesy of a reply resulted from this effort - although the GRP 
at least posted a notice of the action. 

Click through the leftish or progressive websites these days and you’ll find 
endless alarums about the renascent right, the brownshirt threat, the massed 
stormtroopers of Glenn Beck. You won’t find too much practical organizing 
against Obama’s escalation in Afghanistan. 

Take the craven behavior of the leadership of the October 17 anti-war protest 
in San Francisco, the first scheduled  to be held in the Obama era. In the 
nuts-and-bolts details  of organizing and endorsements, the saga tells us much 
about the spavined state of the antiwar movement.

On August 29, the October 17 Coalition voted to endorse a protest at the 
Westin-St. Francis, one of the city’s flashier hotels,  the following Friday 
where San Francisco Congresswoman and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, was to be 
honored with a $100 a plate breakfast. But by the end of the day the October 17 
coalition leadership got cold feet when it learned that the host of the 
breakfast was none other than the San Francisco Labor Council.

Now, in the Bay Area, the bleak truth is that organized labor’s participation 
in marches and demonstrations has been minimal since the first Gulf War. But 
rather than challenging the Labor Council about its apathy on the war questions 
and about its choice of Pelosi, a war supporter, as its breakfast honoree, the 
coalition – replete with supposedly fiery socialists -  promptly tried to 
cancel the protest.

There’s nothing new here. Genuflections to the Labor Council has long 
characterized San Francisco’s anti-war movement leadership when it comes to 
determining its public agenda. 

Unsurprisingly, panic at anything to do with Israel’s conduct has characterized 
many of these more odious chapters in this history, as was forcefully 
demonstrated by the refusal of what was then called the Spring Mobilization for 
Peace, Jobs and Justice to planks to its major marches against US intervention 
in Central America  and apartheid in South Africa in 1985 and 1988 that 
demanded,   “No US Intervention in the Middle East,” and “End US Support for  
Israeli Occupation,” respectively.

In the spring of 1985, Israel was in its fourth year of occupation of Lebanon 
after an invasion that had been publicly supported by the AFL-CIO with no 
dissent from San Francisco’s labor bureaucracy. The main organizer of both of 
those marches was Socialist Action. In its newspaper this group regularly 
boasted of its anti-Zionism and solidarity with the Palestinian cause. 
Nonetheless, in this instance Socialist Action promptly turned into Socialist 
Inaction. The group was adamant abou

[Marxism] who uses which marxmail archive?

[Les Schaffer]

this is an informal poll of people reading marxmail via the web.

if you can send me an email offlist ( les.schaf...@gmail.com ) letting 
me know whether you read the web via the '100 Latest Messages' page:

http://www.marxmail.org/maillist.html

or one of the archives at the Utah server:

   http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/marxism/
   http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/

it would be helpful to us to have this information.

thanks

Les



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[Marxism] SPIEGEL ONLINE - Scandalous Images from Kabul: Guards at US Embassy Organized Humiliating Sex Games

[David Thorstad]

The outrage many have expressed over this latest all-American wartime 
"sex scandal" is more amusing than outrageous, insofar as it 
demonstrates the following:
1. Universal homoerotic impulses can emerge in twisted (or, 
depending on one's point of view, creative) ways under wartime and 
all-male sex-deprived circumstances. Not all repressed homoerotic 
impulses come out in vanilla ways.
2. It is interesting how the ruling-class (and other) media have 
nearly completely suppressed the fact that the United States' Pashtun 
"allies" in Afghanistan practice pederasty (a form of male homosexuality 
that is also universal in Iran, despite the idiotic comments of 
Ahmadinejad at Columbia University that homosexuality doesn't exist in 
Iran). So, Our Savior's losing war in Afghanistan is tied to a tribe 
whose homosexual practices are illegal in most U.S. states. (I don't 
think they should be, but they are, and most American liberals, 
including most "leftists," think they should be.)
I am sure many gay Americans would find some of these sex games fun.
David


SPIEGEL ONLINE, 09/04/2009
-
Scandalous Images from Kabul: Guards at US Embassy Organized
Humiliating Sex Games
-

Photos of embassy guards holding sex parties in Kabul have caused a
stir in Washington. Some of the men involved claim they were forced
to participate by their supervisors at the ArmorGroup security firm.
The scandal could yet again call into question the role of private
contractors in US military missions.

By Britta Sandberg

You can download the complete article over the Internet at the
following URL:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,646977,00.html






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[Marxism] T-Shirts with Marxist and Progressive Themes Available

[jollyjack]

To Readers of the Marxism List,
Several years ago I sent a notice to the list announcing the opening of our web 
store promoting T-Shirts with Marxist themes. Since that time we have expanded 
our selection greatly to include buttons and hats and have added many new 
designs.
 
Most of our shirts are designed by Michael Martinez, a leader of Miami's 
Bolivarian Youth organization. We have just introduced a new line of shirts 
commemorating Native American leaders, We also have shirts with poster art from 
the May 1968 revolt in France along with shirts honoring Gramsci, Trotsky and 
other revolutionary leaders. Of course we have a large number of shirts focused 
on our current struggles including health care.
   
  Most of the shirts were designed by Michael and we produce them ourselves 
right here in Miami. They are all top quality and send a  progressive message.  
We

I would like to invite you to please visit our site and let us know what you 
think 
about it!  We can also design and produce T-Shirts for organizations, a 
mobilization or  businesses and have them union made if you wish. Please  call 
me at 305-582-4846 if you are interested any special orders or requests. 

All of our profits go to support the progressive movement, so the money 
generated by your purchases will be used to support the struggles you believe 
in!  Please click the following link to reach our store.
http://www.radicaljack.com/ 

Best  Regards,
Jack Lieberman

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Re: [Marxism] Econ Rebounding?

[S. Artesian]

I don't believe "the end is nigh."  I am simply saying that the talk of 
recovery is vastly overrated, overrated in the terms that matter even to the 
bourgeoisie.


- Original Message - 
From: "brad bauerly" 
To: "David Schanoes" 
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Econ Rebounding?


> All well and good S. Artesian. 



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Re: [Marxism] Econ Rebounding?

[brad bauerly]

All well and good S. Artesian.  However, capitalism's self produced
gravediggers are the workers, not financiers, world leaders or
'overaccumulation'.  Otherwise Marx would have said capitalism produces its
own graves or death, not gravediggers.  The workers must destroy the system
it will not destroy itself.  Under the current supine politics of the
working class we will get Patrick's "crisis solutions from above".  It is
fun, and serves a very real tactical political purpose, to argue that the
'end is nigh' for capitalism due to its own contradictions.  However, sober
analysis also reveals a very real lack of movement towards that end by the
working class.  How does this fact impact your analysis?

Brad

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Re: [Marxism] John Brown anniversary

[Mark Lause]

Thanks for asking.   :-)

This is due out this fall.  A cheaper, paperback version will follow

ML

RACE AND RADICALISM IN THE UNION ARMY

In this compelling portrait of interracial activism, Mark A. Lause
documents the efforts of radical followers of John Brown to construct
a triracial portion of the Federal Army of the Frontier. Mobilized and
inspired by the idea of a Union that would benefit all, black, Indian,
and white soldiers fought side by side, achieving remarkable successes
in the field. Against a backdrop of idealism, racism, greed, and the
agonies and deprivations of combat, Lause examines links between
radicalism and reform, on the one hand, and racialized interactions
among blacks, Indians, and whites, on the other.

full at http://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/67zda4ns9780252034466.html


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[Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China's high speed rail plans,

[Leonardo Kosloff]

@Nestor: Well, then, what makes you think that the Chinese bureaucracy won't 
betray the interests of workers, China's and the world's over, just as Peron 
did? (...taking into account that it is already doing that, unless you want to 
"dialectically" abstract from the fact that the CCP is Washington's main 
creditor.)

_
Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. 
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_faster:082009

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Re: [Marxism] Econ Rebounding?

[S. Artesian]

More reasons why I don't believe in the recovery :

Wall Street Journal, September 5 2009

States Shut Down to Save Cash

Maine Maryland Michigan Slash Service:
'Nightmare' at California Vehicle Registry

[graphic] Feeling the Pinch: Imapct of budget cust and one day shutdowns

Washington 7000 jobs eliminated
California  27000 teachers laid off.  Drivers can't register their cars in 
person.
Arizona 1000 workers laid off.  Furloughs [unpaid] of 1-2 days a month
Wisconsin No birth certificate copies available
 Michigan 38,000 employees facing furloughs.  Most stating shooting ranges 
and visitor center will be closed
Maine  Families cannot apply for food stamps or Medicaid
Maryland  The Highway Administration will be operating half the usual number 
of traffic patrols
Georgia 25,000 employees facing furloughs.  Lawyers can't file papers with 
the State Court of Appeals.
__

But to our anarch-monetarist, liquidationist bourgeoisie, these are the very 
elements of a recovery, right?  Like I said, the thing about capitalism is 
that contraction and expansion take on each other's characteristics. 



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Re: [Marxism] U.S. Suspends $30 Million To Honduras

[Intense Red]

 > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/world/americas/04honduras.html?em
 > Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton announced Thursday that the
 > United States would formally suspend nearly $30 million in aid to the
 > coup-installed government in Honduras.

   But on the other hand (!) the US did not call it a military coup, which 
would have meant tighter restrictions on Honduras.

   And on the third hand, Democracy Now! reports this morning that the IMF 
is giving Honduras $150 million, which more than makes up for the loss of 
the $30 million from the US.

-- 
"The courts have ruled that the police can search your data without a 
warrant, as long as others hold that data. If the police want to read the 
e-mail on your computer, they need a warrant; but they don't need one to 
read it from the backup tapes at your ISP." -- Security expert Bruce 
Schneier.


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Re: [Marxism] Long posts not allowed??

[brad bauerly]

I think it is imperative that we allow posts of articles.  In order to have
discussion we must be discussing the same thing and we must begin at the
same place.  Without posts of articles we are all coming to the conversation
with different levels of knowledge and understandings of an issue and it
will only lead to more fighting and less fruitful discussions.  Besides I
like seeing what others are reading and finding interesting.

Brad

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Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argent ina Re: China's high speed rail plans

[Lüko Willms]

Néstor Gorojovsky (nmg...@gmail.com) wrote on 2009-09-04 at 06:00:26 in  
about Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: 
China's high speed rail plans:
> 
> 
> Sorry, I was thinking in Argentinean parliamentary terms.
> 
> "Voting with the feet", here, means "leaving the Hemicycle" so that
> the numbers fall below the minimum required to vote a law. "Voting
> with the ass" means remaining at one⌂s seat even though one does not
> favor a law, but at least provides the minimum number. This numer,
> here, is known as quorum.

  Thanks for the explanation, which will be useful for more people than just 
me. I actually intended my query mail as a private one, off-list... hm, good 
that it was diverted! 


Saludos, 
Lüko Willms
Frankfurt, Germany



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Re: [Marxism] China's high speed rail plans

[S. Artesian]

Context Luko, context.  You really have to read the posts before you spew 
your distortions.

1. The entire post to which you refer was a response to MG's speculation 
that the actions of revolutionary government/state in China, and the 
response of the bourgeoisie, would be devastating to the workers of China 
and the US, and produce a worsening of living conditions.

2. The entire post to which you refer dealt with actual revolutionary 
situations.

3. The paragraph regarding the Russian Revolution to which you refers 
follows and is linked directly to the preceding paragraph regarding the 
impact of "developmentalism" and nationalizations in the real revolutionary 
situations of Bolivia and Chile.

4.  Indeed, the soviets may have discussed street lighting.  The FEJUVE in 
El Alto in Bolivia certainly did, just as they discussed and took direct, 
collective action regarding the privatization of the municipal water supply. 
The difference between that and your cheerleading for the development of 
capitalism in China is the difference, well it's the difference between 
revolutionary organization, its struggle for power, and cheerleading for 
capitalism.

- Original Message - 
From: "Lueko Willms" 
To: "David Schanoes" 
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] China's high speed rail plans




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Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China's high speed rail plans,

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

2009/9/3 nada :
>
> Let's use Nestor's country as an example. When Peron came to power he
> implemented what the left had demanded in the unions for decades:
> nationalization of British owned meat packing industry, one of the
> largest employers in the country. So...for workers in the industry and
> as a class as a whole, any further demands are then...what? Not
> important? Please. They would demand and expect and *expansion* and
> *modernization* of their industry.

Well, David, though of course I share the general thrust of  your
thought on this issue, there is a factual mistake in the above, a
factual mistake that I would not be able to leave unnoticed because it
has political consequences.

In fact, Perón did not nationalize the meat packing industry. He just
promoted the meatpacking plants of the Corporación Argentina de
Productores de Carnes (CAP), and even that he did without great
enthusiasm because the CAP was headed by oligarchs.

Although our friend S. Artesian tends to believe I forget these
issues, I never forget that Perón was a bourgeois, not a socialist,
leader. Thus, he kept his nationalizations ALWAYS to a minimum. But
there exists something some like me like to call "permanent
revolution", a political consequence of something else, which we like
to call "uneven and combined development".

This bourgeois "minimum" was unacceptable for imperialism, local
oligarchs and even local bourgeois, an entirely different matter.
Perón ruled with working class support not because nationalizations of
imperialist concerns was a part of the unions´ programmes before 1945
but because it hadn´t been. In fact, this wasn´t even broached by
labor in those times,  poor understanding of imperialist activity in
Argentina so blatantly characterized our "Left" that it left our
working class without its own nationalistic, patriotic, and
revolutionary program exactly when it was more necessary.

So that economic nationalism against imperialist aggression was a
_novelty_ in Argentina around 1945, nothing _that_ usual among local
socialists or communists. Let us face it, Marxists, the workers
supported Perón because what he did was to adopt a general position of
antiimperialist national defense, by  nationalizing the general
framework wherein the Argentinean economic life took place, something
most Arg Marxists had no idea of before he came to power.

Now, again. He did it as a bourgeois could do it. Cowardly, if moral
cathegories can be used.

He nationalized foreign trade, and he nationalized the financial
sector as a whole (not private banks themselves, but again the general
framework within which the banks operated). He nationalized the
transportation system (both merchant navy and railroads), but he did
_not_ nationalize the large ranches (estancias) that formed the kernel
of oligarchic power.

In the end, that is why he was overthrown in 1955, why the third
Peronist term (initiated in 1973) came to so horrible a halt in 1976,
and why this tepidly petty bourgeois Peronist government we have now
is facing a probable defeat in 2011 that may have devastating and
enduring effects on the general progressive and revolutionary trend in
Latin America.

Keep it clear, comrades: if Argentina falls in the hands of the sepoy,
Quisling and proimperialists in 2011, the risks that Venezuela is
isolated will grow at a geometric pace. This last fact is what makes
Arg Marxists so necessary, BUT only if they reject the "classist"
approach of the ultra-left. I don´t know if we shall have the time to
do it in order to take over from the national bourgeois. In more
senses than one, we are playing with fire here.

-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría


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Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] US cuts more aid to Honduras coup regime, rejects stacked election

[John]

On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 18:50 +1200, John wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 11:43 +0530, Sukla Sen wrote:
> > Quote
> > The US announcement of an aid cutoff to Honduras is a "direct blow" against
> > the strategy of the coup regime in Honduras, deposed President Manuel Zelaya
> > declared in an interview with The Nation today.
> > Unquote
> > 
> > What a sea change!
> > Just compare with Sept 11 1973 (in Chile) or April 11 2002 (in Venezuela).
> > 
> > It is one thing to tell that things have not changed enough - not even
> > nearly enough. They must change much further.
> > And quite another to claim: "not a damn thing has changed"!
> > And to pretend that Obama is a Kim Il Sung or Khomeini.

Actually having now read the story, it turns out the Obama government
hasn't actually "done" anything at all. The money had already been
suspended and they still haven't declared the coup to be a coup. I don't
blame Zelaya for making a propaganda point about it - it's a moral
victory - but it changes nothing. Certainly it's nothing to start
getting all googly eyed about Obama over.
Cheers,
John



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Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China's high speed rail plans

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

Sorry, I was thinking in Argentinean parliamentary terms.

"Voting with the feet", here, means "leaving the Hemicycle" so that
the numbers fall below the minimum required to vote a law. "Voting
with the ass" means remaining at one´s seat even though one does not
favor a law, but at least provides the minimum number. This numer,
here, is known as quorum.

Many are "voting with their feet" on sublimate "Leftist" or
"progressive" arguments here, solidly backing by that simple move the
positions of the "agrarian" bloc. Keep in mind that the "agrarian"
bloc is the ramhead of reaction and imperialism here.

2009/9/4 Lüko Willms :
> Querido Nestor,
>
> Nestor Gorojovsky (nmg...@gmail.com) wrote on 2009-09-03 at 18:47:15 in
> about [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re:  China's
> high speed rail plans:
>>
>>
>> Well, Lüko, there are already too many people who vote with their feet
>> (or perhaps their hoof) there, but you would hardly like their company.
>
>   No entiendo lo que tu quieres decir. Podrias elaborar, por favor?
>
>
-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría


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[Marxism] Samir Amin critiques Stiglitz report

[John E. Norem]

This critique relates to the Report of the Commission of Experts of the 
President of the UN General Assembly on Reforms of the International 
Monetary and Financial System . This 
commission was set up by the current president of the United Nations 
General Assembly, Padre Miguel D’Escoto, and presented to that Assembly 
at its meeting of 24–26 June, 2009. Professor Stiglitz, the chair of the 
commission, had clearly imposed his own personal views. Therefore I 
consider correct entitling my critique ‘A critique of the Stiglitz 
Report’. The UN Assembly, therefore, experienced a setback, hardly 
noticed by the media. In reality, this was a victory for the countries 
of the South which, in abstaining from being represented at the required 
level, showed thereby, their refusal to ratify the unilateral decisions 
of the North, the only positions presented in the report.
http://pambazuka.org/en/category/features/58453



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Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China's high speed rail plans

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

A national issue is, by definition, a class issue.

The national question is a class question.

Imperialism 101, dear Artesian.

Of course there are lots of class analyses to be made on the national
question, and related issues.

The first and foremost being what bloc of classes will succesfully
confront, in the territory of a semicolonial or colonial country, the
pressure of the bloc of classes that, from the imperialist countries,
permanently attempts to drive the development of productive forces in
the former towards the best satisfaction of the ruling class (and its
associates) in the latter.

But what am I doing. I already know what will S. Artesian answer, etc., etc.

2009/9/3 S. Artesian :
> And if you strip the question of infrastructure development away from the
> class analysis of the actual relations of production in 3rd world countries,
> if you regard infrastructure, development as a thing in itself, a "national"
> task, if you use that as an excuse to support, applaud, embrace expansion of
> the capitalist relations of production, then you're no Marxist, no way,
> you're a poseur
>
> .
> - Original Message -
> From: "Nestor Gorojovsky" 
> To: "David Schanoes" 
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:47 PM
> Subject: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re:
> China's high speed rail plans
>
>
> .
>
> These issues are adamant in any Third World country. If you can´t guess
> this, then you not only can call yourself a Marxist, you can hardly call
> yourself a serious person.
>
>
>
> 
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>



-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría


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[Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China's high speed rail plans

[Lüko Willms]

Querido Nestor, 

Nestor Gorojovsky (nmg...@gmail.com) wrote on 2009-09-03 at 18:47:15 in  
about [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re:  China's 
high speed rail plans:
> 
> 
> Well, Lüko, there are already too many people who vote with their feet 
> (or perhaps their hoof) there, but you would hardly like their company. 

   No entiendo lo que tu quieres decir. Podrias elaborar, por favor? 


Saludos revolutionarios, 
Lüko Willms
Frankfurt, Germany



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Re: [Marxism] invasion of the Israelii (or Jewish) bo9dy snatcchers

[Fred Feldman]

Les wrote: 
i didn't see an outpouring of discussion on this topic, in spite of its 
full posting to the list.   
Les wrote:
i didn't see an outpouring of discussion on this topic, in spite of its 
full posting to the list.


Fred comments:
 No "outpouring," true.  Just four or five, not counting yours kor my
comnents other than the one you cited introducing the article, which I know
you don't think counts as discussion because of the offense of posting an
article. I am relieved to get your report that Louis has, in my opinion, a
sounder view of this than you do. 






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Re: [Marxism] Long posts not allowed??

[joel cosgrove]

I agree with Richard on this. I look at the list each day (or couple of
days) and try to figure out what I need to read first. There are currently
upwards of 4000 unread messages in the inbox.
That's not to say i'm not against huge volumes of email, *if *it leads to
further discussion. But a lot of it seems to just sit there.

2009/9/4 

> In a message dated 9/3/2009 9:15:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight  Time,
> schaf...@optonline.net writes:
>
>
> It's just that what  I find most interesting here are the unvarnished
> opinions of my comrades,  rather than the polished reports of professional
> journalists.
>

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