[Marxism] Obama to avoid the rabble on S.F. visit
Obama to avoid the rabble on S.F. visit By Phil Matier and Andrew Ross SF Chronicle, October 14, 2009 The White House's fear of protests from Code Pink and other left-wingers has put the brakes on President Obama making any public appearances during his visit to San Francisco this week. Obama is scheduled to parachute into Liberalville on Thursday afternoon and pick up a cool $2 million for the Democratic Party at a fundraiser at the St. Francis Hotel - then spend the night, before checking out early the next morning and heading to Houston for a community service forum hosted by former President George H.W. Bush. The St. Francis event is about all the public will see of him here. Concerns about big and loud protests over the war in Afghanistan, the prohibition on open gays and lesbians in the military and other issues have squelched any thought of a trip to a local school or high-tech manufacturing plant that often accompanies such visits, said a source involved in the planning. ... Full item at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/13/BA0B1A52OU.DTL&type=newsbayarea YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The National Equality March: A New Generation of Protesters
Fact: The last National March in 1993 had almost one million people Thus comparing - it failed to even come close to something that was built without the benefit of the internet - and look at the depth of endorsers, to show how small this so called national march for equality truly was - poor organizing! The Parks Police did not give an estimate then or of this recent 2009 event. One can check all the standard legitimate ways to measure sizes of crowds on the National Malll - by space covered and density. One can also check the numbers of buses and trains chartered and filled to also judge attendance. There was plenty of space on the mall this time - as compared to 1993, etc. Since the event organizers were pro-Obama - why did not the large numbers among GLBT activists in organiations, not show up for this event? Facts are facts and words are only - this march was organized top down, no democratic decision making, run by democratic party operatives - as compared to the earlier larger successful marches. Again follow the money on the expensives and who was paid and received funds. And what accountability is there now for the funds after this march? Remember David Mixner's previous 1980's Great Peace March - that he abandoned the marches at the beginning of that march by foot across the U. S. as they entered the desert after his lavish spending? Or the earlier Oct - Dec 1969 Moratorium Committee he and Sam Brown also abandoned? The real leaders of this event were all democratic party operatives - and the ISO was taken in. Watch the 10/11/09 DC rally on tape - and tell me what was so progressive - about how this was organized - and what was said as compared to the earlier real national marches. But the ISO was not involved in those - so I guess they do not matter - only this event - that was just so so very very large - that it was a tenth of the size of the previous march, that did not have the internet, but was more community based than this event! > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:18:38 -0400 > From: amaral1...@gmail.com > > This post is so full of outright misinformation and vapid polemic that it is > hardly even worthy of a response. But to point out one egregious fallacy, > that the march was 'poorly attended': there were easily over 150,000 people > there. Park police estimated the turnout at 150,000. March organizers said > 200,000. > And the Associated Press estimated the crowd at 300,000. > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 10:58 PM, John Obrien wrote: > > > Having been on the National Steering Committees of the 1979 and 1987 > > National Lesbian and Gay Rights Marches on Washington DC - here is my > > feedback: > > > > This Oct 11, 2009 event (so called March) was poorly attended - and much > > smaller compared to the previous real national marches. > > The major reason is that it was called and controlled by three people! > > There was no national organizing conference, as in the previous three > > national marches (1979, 1987, 1993) that invited all to participate and to > > set up a political and financial accountable organization, that was grass > > roots based. The three main organizers of this 10/11/09 event who controlled > > everything - were democratic party adherents, who wanted to keep this as a > > lobbying/pressure group and not to let it get beyond that. They succeeded > > in controlling it - but did not advance the GLBT Movement, by what they did. > > > > > > This so called march - which was more a staged event - was a setback - not > > an advance for the GLBT Movement. Instead of following a good tradition of > > having a grass roots based demorcratic decision making organization, that > > was inclusive and welcoming - this top down controlled event, instead took > > place. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] LatinRadical: More breaking news from Honduras
LatinRadical -- audio -- podcast and radio show http://vensol.blogspot.com/ *Honduras - more breaking news from Ricardo Salgado Ricardo Salgado reports from Honduras on the withdrawal of Resistance Front Representative from the 'dialogue' between President Zelaya and the coup regime. A positive outcome is not likely, and it seems that repression of the Honduran people by the coup regime is growing proportionately. The interview was paused while Ricardo went out to investigate the sound of shooting in the streets - a sound he says, the Honduran people have become all too used to. * Honduras - Israel Salinas habla (Spanish) Israel Salinas del CUTH explicando lo que pasa en una semana critica para Honduras - 'Dialogo' con los golpistas incluyo un representante del Frente de Resistencia, Juan Barahona. Barahona se sentio obligado a retirar del dialogo, porque El Frente esta comprometido de no acceptar la condicion de prohibir una Asamblea Constituyente. Sin embargo El Frente sigue fuerte en su apoyo al Presidente Zelaya. (Israel Salinas, Union leader of the CUTH explains what is happening at the beginnin of a critical week for Honduras. The 'dialogue' with the coup regime included a representative of the massive Honduran Resistance Front, Juan Barahona. Barahona felt obliged to withdraw from the 'dialogue' process because the Front is committed not to accept a condition that would prohibit a Constituent Assembly. Nevertheless, the Front is still strong in its support of President Zelaya. )ma ___ RatbagMedia http://ratbagmedia.wikispaces.com Phone:07 1805 Mobile: 0415040947 Emai: ratbagra...@gmail.com Skype: ratbagradio ___ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Mamet takes the Susan Sontag Memorial Thruway
On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:24:20 -0400 "jayroth6" wrote: > "despite Mamet's biting irony, the Orthodox and lovers of Israel who > might fear this book should breathe a deep sigh of relief." > http://www.jewishchronicle.org/article.php?article_id=11764 Amazing. Somebody else has actually read this crazy little book of Mamet's. My wife, who has a terrific sense of humor, gave me a copy some time ago, and it delighted me so much I wrote a long piece about it on Counterpunch: http://www.counterpunch.org/smith04012008.html -- Michael Smith m...@smithbowen.net http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org http://fakesprogress.blogspot.com YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] David Mamet takes the Susan Sontag Memorial Thruway
"despite Mamet's biting irony, the Orthodox and lovers of Israel who might
fear this book should breathe a deep sigh of relief."
http://www.jewishchronicle.org/article.php?article_id=11764
Mamet takes on 'unaligned' Jews
By Susan Ellman
Special to The Chronicle
"The Wicked Son: Anti-Semitism, Self-Hatred, and the Jews" surprised me. I
hardly recognized it as the work of David Mamet, whose angry characters I've
seen shouting profanities at each other across the theater stage.
Instead of the rapid fire dialogue I have come to expect from Mamet, he writes
in compound complex sentences that often require a second or third reading,
employing an arcane vocabulary that requires the frequent use of a good
dictionary, sentences not unlike this one in fact, making the 189 short pages
feel more like twice that many.
Yet this controversial, thought provoking book, which I thought would remind me
of Isaac Deutscher's "The Non Jewish Jew," contained ideas I would sooner have
expected in a book by Shmuley Boteach.
I recognized the David Mamet whose indictment of his childhood Reform Judaism,
"A Plain Brown Wrapper" appeared in Tikkun in 1988. In other words, despite
Mamet's biting irony, the Orthodox and lovers of Israel who might fear this
book should breathe a deep sigh of relief.
Mamet discusses the "unaligned Jew, the Jew only by an interesting quirk of
heredity - that Jew who refers to his forebears much as a wealthy man might
allude to an ancestor who was a horse thief."
He addresses the book to this same reader, whom he claims was the subject and
intended recipient of the Torah itself: the apikoris, or the rasha ("Wicked
Son") of the Haggadah who excludes himself from the Passover celebration:
Mamet speaks to the "Wicked Son," who asks, "What does all this mean to you?"
To the Jews who, in the 60s, envied the Black Power Movement; who in the 90s,
envied the Palestinians; who weep at Exodus but jeer at the Israel Defense
Forces; who nod when Tevye praises tradition but fidget through the seder; who
might take their curiosity to a dogfight, to a bordello or an opium den but
find ludicrous the notion of a visit to the synagogue," he writes in the
introduction.
"To you who find your religion and race repulsive, your ignorance of your
history a satisfaction, here is a book from your brother."
Ever the artist with words, Mamet carefully crafts his argument, founding it on
the premise that the world hates Jews and that that hatred is irrational. He
builds his case in short essay-like chapters with such titles as "Jewish, but
Not Too Jewish," "You Can Just Be Nothing," "Bar Mitzvah and Golden Calf," "A
Rich Shul and a Poor Shul," "What Israel Means to Me," and "The High School Car
Wash."
His subjects, he says, have abandoned the heritage the world has taught them to
despise, identified with their oppressors, and transferred their fealty to the
stronger group from which they wish to gain acceptance.
Yet they can only seek comfort and community among their fellow Jewish
apostates, happy to announce their ignorance of tradition, to denigrate Jewish
observance, and to berate Israel. Mamet says these Jews, even if they don't
realize it, are deeply troubled people.
The remedy he prescribes for this modern Jewish anomie? The Wicked Son should
come back and rejoin the community he rejected. He should go to shul. He should
study the Torah he derides.
He should rediscover the value of belonging to the Jewish people and living his
life according to the strictures of Jewish tradition. "Only the recognition of
[God] will set him free to reason," Mamet writes.
In places, Mamet's analysis is creative and incisive. He criticizes the
emptiness and purposelessness of modern American society in which we excuse the
poor for murder, but not to theft, and the rich for theft but not murder. He
argues that the disaffected Jew, ignorant of his people's ways, suffers a
deeper malaise that may hinder his moral and intellectual growth. In some
families the modern bar mitzvah has become, like the Golden Calf, a celebration
of the death of Judaism.
Elsewhere, he provokes charges of excess. He claims our society loves victims
for their entertainment value and finds them picturesque and colorful, but only
as long as they are subdued.
"In my lifetime," he writes, "Jews have mythologically served the cause of soft
pornography. The world weeps at our being killed. What fun."
I agree with Mamet that Judaism has critically failed to address and appeal to
the Wicked Child. He might be the writer who could succeed where so many rabbis
and other community leaders have failed.
I would like to think this is the book that will magically solve the problem. I
would consider giving it as a bar mitzvah gift, along with my old favorite,
"The Sabbath," by Abraham Joshua Heschel. The exercise of reading it alone and
looking up so many of its words would boost a bright teenager's SAT score
Re: [Marxism] Overproduction - underconsumption
Nestor Gorojovsky wrote: > However clip the quoted text. Les YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The National Equality March: A New Generation of Protesters
aaron amaral wrote: > This post is so full of outright misinformation and vapid polemic that it is > hardly even worthy of a response. say what you want, but clip the quoted text. Les YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The National Equality March: A New Generation of Protesters
This post is so full of outright misinformation and vapid polemic that it is hardly even worthy of a response. But to point out one egregious fallacy, that the march was 'poorly attended': there were easily over 150,000 people there. Park police estimated the turnout at 150,000. March organizers said 200,000. And the Associated Press estimated the crowd at 300,000. -aa On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 10:58 PM, John Obrien wrote: > > Having been on the National Steering Committees of the 1979 and 1987 > National Lesbian and Gay Rights Marches on Washington DC - here is my > feedback: > > > > This Oct 11, 2009 event (so called March) was poorly attended - and much > smaller compared to the previous real national marches. > > > The major reason is that it was called and controlled by three people! > There was no national organizing conference, as in the previous three > national marches (1979, 1987, 1993) that invited all to participate and to > set up a political and financial accountable organization, that was grass > roots based. The three main organizers of this 10/11/09 event who controlled > everything - were democratic party adherents, who wanted to keep this as a > lobbying/pressure group and not to let it get beyond that. They succeeded > in controlling it - but did not advance the GLBT Movement, by what they did. > > > > This so called march - which was more a staged event - was a setback - not > an advance for the GLBT Movement. Instead of following a good tradition of > having a grass roots based demorcratic decision making organization, that > was inclusive and welcoming - this top down controlled event, instead took > place. > > > > We expected many young people who never had the oportunity before to > participate in a real national GLBT March, to be lured to this event. The > three organizers counted on that. > > However, they were disappointed by the response of the larger majority of > the GLBT Community gave them. - and not because of being pro-Obama - but > because of what they were trying to do. Many long time activists and > fortunately a number of new ones, understood how undemocratic and > self-serving this event was. > > > > What I was surprised about is how the ISO and RCP added their names as > endorsers - without even thinking - was this a good thing to build the GLBT > Movement - and the best way. The ISO and RCP apparently had not thought out > a political understanding or goals to build a mass independent GLBT > Movement, but just to tail after some bourgeois democrats. > > > > As with other small sectarian sects, they apparently in supporting this > undemocratic event, counter their own little vanguard parties for people to > join, than to actually promote and build a mass independent movement. A > better course of action would be to sincerely build a mass independent > movement. Had they been seen as the best builders of promoting a real > independent mass GLBT Movement, they could become leaders of this movement > and the communities it represents. > > > > But the ISO and RCP never reached out to the previous National March > organizers or do any serious outreach to the many existing community > organizations - to analyze what was this event for and about - but instead > chased after this event, to follow the democratic party operatives and > without considering the political demands, outcome and may I mention - any > financial accountability, along with political accountability. They thought > it was great because it appeared to be protesting the Obama government - > when it actually was to only beg and lobby and promise to be loyal defenders > of that government, if some speech was made - without any concrete changes, > in including poor and working people to decision making. > > > > I saw one ISO member state they were so proud to have brought 40 buses from > New York City! Forty buses - that is two thousand people and in 2009 that > is not saying very much about good organizing! Thus instead of thousands of > buses from that city alone - forty buses and this is considered successful? > The 1993 March (before the internet) had a million participants. This one > had a small fraction of that size! > > > > Was this small Oct 11, 2009 turnout due to so many people not wanting to > protest the Obama govenrment - or just bad organizing. I believe mainly the > later. > > > > I did not attend this event in Wash DC this weekend. I watched it on CSPAN > with my partner hoping to see some break with the democratic party - but > there was none! > > > > In 1987, I led the Los Angeles Committee that brought over 30,000 people > from Los Angeles alone, to that real national march and helped to bring from > California, over a hundred thousand - which is more than what showed up in > total on this Sunday (with today's internet - that was not available 22 > years ago). > > > > Is this because support for GLBT Rights has declined - or interest in the > GLBT Movement? > > No - it is not
Re: [Marxism] The National Equality March: A New Generation of Protesters
Having been on the National Steering Committees of the 1979 and 1987 National Lesbian and Gay Rights Marches on Washington DC - here is my feedback: This Oct 11, 2009 event (so called March) was poorly attended - and much smaller compared to the previous real national marches. The major reason is that it was called and controlled by three people! There was no national organizing conference, as in the previous three national marches (1979, 1987, 1993) that invited all to participate and to set up a political and financial accountable organization, that was grass roots based. The three main organizers of this 10/11/09 event who controlled everything - were democratic party adherents, who wanted to keep this as a lobbying/pressure group and not to let it get beyond that. They succeeded in controlling it - but did not advance the GLBT Movement, by what they did. This so called march - which was more a staged event - was a setback - not an advance for the GLBT Movement. Instead of following a good tradition of having a grass roots based demorcratic decision making organization, that was inclusive and welcoming - this top down controlled event, instead took place. We expected many young people who never had the oportunity before to participate in a real national GLBT March, to be lured to this event. The three organizers counted on that. However, they were disappointed by the response of the larger majority of the GLBT Community gave them. - and not because of being pro-Obama - but because of what they were trying to do. Many long time activists and fortunately a number of new ones, understood how undemocratic and self-serving this event was. What I was surprised about is how the ISO and RCP added their names as endorsers - without even thinking - was this a good thing to build the GLBT Movement - and the best way. The ISO and RCP apparently had not thought out a political understanding or goals to build a mass independent GLBT Movement, but just to tail after some bourgeois democrats. As with other small sectarian sects, they apparently in supporting this undemocratic event, counter their own little vanguard parties for people to join, than to actually promote and build a mass independent movement. A better course of action would be to sincerely build a mass independent movement. Had they been seen as the best builders of promoting a real independent mass GLBT Movement, they could become leaders of this movement and the communities it represents. But the ISO and RCP never reached out to the previous National March organizers or do any serious outreach to the many existing community organizations - to analyze what was this event for and about - but instead chased after this event, to follow the democratic party operatives and without considering the political demands, outcome and may I mention - any financial accountability, along with political accountability. They thought it was great because it appeared to be protesting the Obama government - when it actually was to only beg and lobby and promise to be loyal defenders of that government, if some speech was made - without any concrete changes, in including poor and working people to decision making. I saw one ISO member state they were so proud to have brought 40 buses from New York City! Forty buses - that is two thousand people and in 2009 that is not saying very much about good organizing! Thus instead of thousands of buses from that city alone - forty buses and this is considered successful? The 1993 March (before the internet) had a million participants. This one had a small fraction of that size! Was this small Oct 11, 2009 turnout due to so many people not wanting to protest the Obama govenrment - or just bad organizing. I believe mainly the later. I did not attend this event in Wash DC this weekend. I watched it on CSPAN with my partner hoping to see some break with the democratic party - but there was none! In 1987, I led the Los Angeles Committee that brought over 30,000 people from Los Angeles alone, to that real national march and helped to bring from California, over a hundred thousand - which is more than what showed up in total on this Sunday (with today's internet - that was not available 22 years ago). Is this because support for GLBT Rights has declined - or interest in the GLBT Movement? No - it is not that - so I suggest we look at the misleaders and misorganizers of this event, as responsbile for the poor showing. Had they instead allowed a national open organizing process for this - the march would have taken place far differently and next year instead, with the focus not on lobbying, as this event was. What was possibly established, by the ISO and others going to this event - was to allow both allow left cover to the organizers, to appear progressive and to allow any rich billionaire or another small unrepresented
Re: [Marxism] UN
jmcanulty wrote: > Anyone got a good Marxist analysis of the general role of the UN > (rather than role in particular crises? > > John MCa > > http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/fascism_and_war/unitednations.htm YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution
In my view, Trotsky's 'History of the Russian Revolution' presents the best account of the course of Russian Revolution. So far as question of bias is concerned, the preafce deals with it. The beauty is that apart form its literary excellence, this is one of the rare history accounts written by the co-leader of Russian Revolution, alongside Lenin. We are going to publish its Indian version in English and Hindi (vernacular), both. You may visit us here: http://new-wave-nw.blogspot.com/ Rajesh Tyagi -- 'the new wave' new-wave-nw.blogspot.com YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Overproduction - underconsumption
However, under the title "China, a locomotive", there is a short piece of news in Pa'gina 12 of Buenos Aires today, where you can read (fast translation) that "the global steel industry began its recuperation of the crisis sooner than expected. This is due to the strong increase of the sectorial demand in China, according to the World Steel Association (Asociacio'n Mundial del Acero). According to this source, an 8.6 pct contraction is expected for this year, while half a year ago the estimation was a fall of 14.1 pct" If the "global steel industry" is worried by THE FACTS ABOVE, this means that the imperialist bourgeoisies are worried. I won?t sum my own feeling to theirs. S. Artesian escribio': > Latest estimate of China's steel making output capacity I've come across is > in the Financial Times of 12 October-- 600 million tons, so I was > conservative in my estimate of the capacity growth over the last year, and > actual demand vs the increased capacity in China is less than I estimated, > meaning the overcapacity is greater than 22% and probably over 25%. > > Global output has declined more than 20% in the first half of 2009, and > CISA has stated that China's consumption will decline this year. China's > steel exports were about 50 million tons in 2007, current exports are only > 1/10 of that-- at about 5 million tons reported the FT on 5 October. > > However, the recovery in China has the global steel industry worried. > > Says the FT 12 October: "The unexpectedly swift recovery in China's steel > production has sparked fears that a glut of exports counld puncture steel > prices as the global industry struggles to emerge from the downturn" > > The country apparently most concerned with China's exports? India. > > According to the FT: "SK Roongta, chairman of the Steel Authority of India > said Chinese overproduction was 'a point of concern' for the world's steel > producers." > > Those who pay attention to these things, rather than just make things up as > they go along, will also note the recent protest in Brussels, I believe, > where protesting farmers dumped millions of gallons of milk into the > streets. The EU, which already provides euro 55 billion in subsidies to the > agricultural sector was moved to provide an emergency payment of euro 15,000 > per dairy farmer. > > The US has 60,000 dairy farm units, the EU has 1.4 million dairy farms. > The price per liter received by the EU farmers has declinced from 45cents to > 25 cents. > > Now this is overproduction. Does it mean there are any fewer malnourished > children in the world in need of milk? Of course not, there are more than a > year ago. Does it mean that there is less need for milk than a year ago? > Of course not, but capitalist production has nothing to do with need, or its > contact with actual need is tangential, accidental-- mediated by the value > form. > > The very essence of private property in the means of production, the > capitalist production of milk, is that it must be "blind" to the actual > assessment of need, as the private producers try to realize the surplus > value expropriated in production through exchange in the market. Only > through this 'blindness' can capital distribute and ration profit. > > So production becomes overproduction on the very basis of the attempted > realization of the total social value in private production. Production > becomes overproduction based on the very limits of the markets capital so > covets. > > > > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/nmgoro%40gmail.com > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] UN
Anyone got a good Marxist analysis of the general role of the UN (rather than role in particular crises? John MCa Forget the rest, get the best - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/music YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Imperialist control of world petroleum and imperialism assuch (was: The real issue in the Polanski arrest)
Well, since no one has jumped in to the argument about the role of OPEC and imperialism, permit me my usual sarcastic reply to Luko's nonsense: Right, right. "Break the control of the imperialist countries over the world petroleum market." HUGE DIFFERENCE! But you know what? You still don't know what you're talking about. Then to qualify your ignorance you engage in language games-- "oh no not break the power of imperialism, you misunderstand me. I mean the peacock throne, and the royal house of the Saudis, and the representives of the hope-to-be bourgeoisie in Venezuela, were trying to break the control of the imperialist countries OVER the world petroleum market in 1960." Right, that's so much more subtle, precise, accurate an analysis of OPEC. Sure they were. And yes, Virginia there is a Santa Claus, and he's delivered by the oil trucks ever since we switched from coal. See all prior comments re your dissembling and nonsense spewing. Track down yet, Luko, the data on China's need to import as much steel as it can get, or didn't you make that statement either? - Original Message - From: "Lüko Willms" To: "David Schanoes" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:29 AM Subject: [Marxism] Imperialist control of world petroleum and imperialism assuch (was: The real issue in the Polanski arrest) S. Artesian (sartes...@earthlink.net) wrote on 2009-10-13 at 08:02:09 in about Re: [Marxism] The real issue in the Polanski arrest: > > > My invention? Here's what you wrote-- > > "One should remember also that both Iran and Venezuela were among the > five founding members of OPEC [Organization of Petroleum Exporting > Countries] in 1960, the cartel of "Third World" countries trying to break > the control of the "Seven Sisters", i.e. the oil trusts of imperialist > countries, over the world petroleum market." which does not amount to "break the power of imperialism". I consciously made a distinction, and you lump it all together. The truth is concrete, and the world is not a binary either-or in black and white. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt, Germany visit http://www.mlwerke.de Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, Lenin, Trotzki in German YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/sartesian%40earthlink.net YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] REMINDER
Tough to when one guy accuses me of dishonesty, and the other accuses me of Friedmanism, based, of course, on their own ignorance of the subject under discussion-- overproduction and the reproduction of value. - Original Message - From: "Les Schaffer" . perhaps that would be a good > tip for C. Nestor, S.Artesian, and Lüko: if you MUST converse with each > other, ask the other to qualify their position relative to your own and > leave it to the remaining 1200 participants to pick sides. > > Les YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Statement against Government of India ’s planned military offensive in adivasi-popula ted regions
At the end of the day, Louis, Americans feeling the pain at the pump don't complain much about cable news cliches. Not to get emotionally charged or anything. Pull back the curtain. On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: > Bhaskar Sunkara wrote: > > At the end of the day > > ARRGGGH > > It is bad enough that every single talking head on cable news shows uses > this phrase (or "throwing somebody under the bus") without us using it. > > > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/bhaskar.sunkara%40gmail.com > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The real issue in the Polanski arrest
My invention? Here's what you wrote-- "One should remember also that both Iran and Venezuela were among the five founding members of OPEC [Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries] in 1960, the cartel of "Third World" countries trying to break the control of the "Seven Sisters", i.e. the oil trusts of imperialist countries, over the world petroleum market." As I said, you are, at your best, a dissembler. - Original Message - From: "Lüko Willms" To: "David Schanoes" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] The real issue in the Polanski arrest S. Artesian (sartes...@earthlink.net) wrote on 2009-10-12 at 20:41:43 in about Re: [Marxism] The real issue in the Polanski arrest: > > > 1. More nonsense from the man who considers the Shah and OPEC > to be attempts to break the power of imperialism. The "break the power of imperialism" is your invention which you try to plant on me. You are not honest in the way you conduct your discussion here. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] En privado
Sure it was. You stopped the debate on China because you have no understanding of Marx's analysis of capitalism. - Original Message - From: "Néstor Gorojovsky" To: "David Schanoes" Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:11 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] En privado > Sorry, this was meant to be private. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Snipers fire on Zelaya; Colombian paramilitaries infiltrate Honduras
I'm glad that the UN has been attacked. There should be more attacks on the UN. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
