[Marxism] Articles on Australia's hung parliament

[Peter Boyle]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


This is the first time since 1940 that Australia facing the prospect of a
minority federal government so there is quite a lot of political discussion
in the public. I suspect the last time in recent history there was as wide
political discussion was when the racist populist Pauline Hanson won a
million votes in 1999!  There are now a number of post-Australian election
articles published on the Green Left website:

We didn’t get what we deserved  by
Fred Fuentes.

‘Greenslide’ a shift to left — neither major party wins majority mandate <
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/45183> by Peter Boyle.

The political record of the independent MPs <
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/45186> by Graham Matthews

Anti-Intervention vote high in NT Indigenous communities <
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/45184> by Peter Robson.

Creating the democracy we don't have yet <
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/45181> by Tim Anderson.

As well as the comment I wrote before the election

Looking beyond the elections  by
Peter Boyle.

Please share these links. Hopefully we'll be putting more election analyses
up on the website soon.

We want to invite a broad progressive input into the discussion on Green
Left Online. There is the beginning of discussion about these articles in
the comments section below each article and I would urge you to use that
facility and encourage others to do so as well.

Regards
Peter Boyle

Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Truthers and Conspiracy Theory

[Mark Lause]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


The CIA admitted many years ago that it used the UFO story to shield
experimental military craft.  Interestingly, the bozos have prattled right
past that and still babble about how disturbing it is that the scouts from
Alpha Centari are hanging out around "our" military bases.

Fancy that.

That people from the intelligence community or military or the contractors
are still coming forward with stories about UFOs and little green men fits
the pattern of disinformation pretty nicely

ML

Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Truthers and Conspiracy Theory

[Joseph Catron]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

My old friend Sander Hicks's
> time would be better spent trying to track down a member of this
> supposed conspiracy and getting him or her to spill their beans
> rather than raising questions about whether jet engine fuel can
> melt a steel girder.
>

God knows I'm not going a-Googling after it, but haven't a number of the
members of the United States' aerospace establishment, for example,
"spill[ed] their beans" over supposed UFO conspiracies? What the hell does
that prove?

-- 
"Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen
lytlað."

Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] A query

[Gary MacLennan]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


I have come across an article by "Andrew Lewis is a senior writer for the Ayn
Rand Institute  in Irvine, Calif. The
Institute promotes the philosophy of Ayn Rand, author of Atlas Shrugged and
The Fountainhead.".

Does anyone have any thoughts on Lewis?  Is he just another right wing froot
loop?  Or is he important in some way?  I am wondering whether his abhorrent
views on Australian aborigines are worth attacking.

comradely

Gary

Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Is Israel an apartheid state?

[Manuel Barrera]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==




Fred: > Manuel agrees with me, seemingly, and then complains:

Me: Well, "complain" is a strong word. It would imply some emotional attachment 
to my being "peeved" at what appears to be condescension. You know, similarly 
to when Fred seems to think I have a problem with speaking (and writing) in 
English simply because I chose to register a protest in solidarity with my 
brothers and sisters who are undocumented and were calling for me (nosotros) to 
write (and speak) in Spanish for one day (on that occasion, I do confess a bit 
of "emotion", read humor, i.e., I LMAO) . . . no, I was just peeved. 


More to the point, yes, I am sure Palestinians are capable of making mistakes 
and perhaps Fred "May" be correct that there are multiple perspectives on 
solutions that are held among the Palestinian people. However, wouldn't that 
not simply be because of the "weak and disorganized" leadership of the PLO or 
Hamas? Wouldn't it also be because of the scale of terror and "prison"-like 
conditions to which the Palestinian people are being subjected; of a kind 
legitimately considered as "apartheid" and perhaps close enough to holocaust 
proportions? What exactly would any of us be willing to accept as the " real 
situation and consciousness their real level of unity, the strength or weakness 
of their alliances, and the strength of the enemy which is far from evaporating 
as yet" if we were being obliterated by U.S. and European funded, U.S. and 
European inspired, and Zionist implemented starvation and degradation at the 
point of all those guns and bombs? Wouldn't you do anything just to survive? 
Wouldn't any of us buckle under such pressure? Don't you think it is of 
monumental and historic proportion the heroism, courage, and the continuing 
willingness of the Palestinian people literally to throw up some of the most 
unrelenting albeit obdurate leaderships to challenge the Zionist and U.S. 
bullies? There is a reason for the responses that Palestinians make in the form 
of their opinions and the leaderships they choose to follow (all with the 
historic lack of a "traditional" revolutionary leadership) in the face of death 
and annihilation. Shouldn't we be at least willing to demand the "Cadillac" 
when such heroic people are literally forced to fight for just horses and 
buggies? I am reminded of the Vietnam war and some of the discussion we had 
regarding the Paris Peace Talks and the negotiations of the Vietnamese 
fighters. Then we maintained the principled demand for immediate and 
unconditional withdrawal from Vietnam regardless what the Vietnamese people 
were forced to accept. It worked; at least better than had we tried to follow 
along  with whatever the Vietnamese delegation tried to negotiate at any given 
time. We cannot blame the Palestinian people for doing what they need to 
survive and maintain the ability to continue to fight "another day." But We Can 
Never Believe That What They Are Forced To Accept is the Same As 
Self-Determination! Today, if the Palestinian Will is to survive, we should not 
interpret that as what they actually want (you know, what E.V. Debs said about 
voting for what you want and not getting it being better than voting for what 
you don't want, right?). 

I, of course, can agree with Fred that the people of the solidarity movement, 
like the Palestinian people, and all us humans,  are capable of making mistakes 
in making unrealistic or impertinent demands (including telling Palestinians 
what they should and should not do). The Palestinian people can accept or 
reject any and all advice, I am sure. What I am also sure of is that without 
"us" on the outside standing up to the bullies and murderers who kill and force 
a people into submission (or at least try to do so), with all our, let's say, 
"diversity" of solutions and demands, working in concert with the heroic 
defense of their right to exist from the Palestinian people on the "inside" . . 
. well, the consequences would be dire indeed. 

The Palestinian people and every oppressed people have every right to accept, 
reject, listen to, or ignore any advice or perspective "we" may give them. We 
can never reject what they are are willing to do in defense of their right to 
be even if we may not be willing to act in the same manner or consider some of 
their actions ineffective. They can chide us for our ignorance, but they will 
never see us stand away from them.

I hope that is what Fred (and others) meant.
> Fred responds:
> Where did I suggest that the "apartheid Israel" slogan would lead
> Palestinian fighters astray? Nowhere, although I admit that Palestinian
> fighters are not unique in the world in being incapable of making mistakes.
> 
> No, my concern is with the international solidarity

[Marxism] The Roma: Europe's favorite Scapegoat

[Dennis Brasky]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


The Roma: Europe's favorite Scapegoat



Dispatches From The Edge



Conn Hallinan





August 23, 2010





clip -



Scapegoating the Roma is an old European tradition,

almost as old as the initial migration of the Romany

people out of Rajasthan, India in the 11th century. Most

of those Roma settled in Moldavia and Wallachia -

today's Romania - where they were quickly enslaved.

Those Romany who did not escape enslavement by to taking

up the nomadic life remained slaves until 1856.



According to Maria Ochoa-Lido of the Council of Europe,

those centuries of slavery essentially sentenced the

Roma to poverty-stricken lives on the margins, with life

expectancy considerably lower than other populations in

the EU.



A lack of access to education, social services,

education and the legal system for Romania's 2.5 million

Roma still drives many of them to take to the road. As

bad as conditions for the Roma are in countries like

France and Germany, they are better than those in

poverty-stricken Romania.



The attacks on the Roma could well be a prelude to

similar campaigns against other European minorities:

Turks in Germany, Pakistanis in England, Moroccans and

Algerians in Spain and Italy, and Africans scattered

throughout the continent. Xenophobia in a time of

economic crisis rarely restricts itself to a single

target.


full -

http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2010-08-24/article/

36127?headline=Dispatches-From-The-Edge-Roma-Europe-s-

Favorite-Scapegoat-

Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Is Israel an apartheid state?

[johnedmundson]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


John:
>> To claim that the "independence of Gaza ... is a fact" is simply absurd.
>> How many independent countries are denied the right to control
>> their own borders, immigration, travel, sea space, defence policy,
>> the right to an army.

Luko:
> Lebanon. Somalia.

Me:
Of course Somalia's independence is only a legal formality. It is not truly or
meaningfully independent, as I'm sure everyone here would agree. Lebanon's
independence is slightly more credible but its existence is pretty tenuous too
in many respects. I don't think a resolution to the Palestinian issue will come
about beyond the context of the greater Arab revolution, which is likely
(unfortunately) to have a strongly Islamic current within it.

John:
>> Gaza is not independent of the PA and neither Gaza nor
>> the PA are independent of Israel.

Luko:
> But the government in Gaza does not take orders from Tel Aviv.

> The government in Gaza is an instrument of the Palestinian Arabs for their
> self-determination, not a transmission belt of the colonial settler state.
> That's why all imperialist powers treat the government in Gaza as an outcast >
which has to be isolated.

Me:
It is true that the Hamas government is not simply a conduit for Israeli policy.
It attempts to assert some sort of independent stance, but all its actions are
constrained almost entirely by Israel. Even under international law, Gaza is
still officially occupied territory because of the degree of day to day control
Israel exerts over Gaza and its residents. I don't need to detail what those
controls are.

> That is what justifies to call Gaza the Palestinian state.

Me:
Even if the people in Gaza and their government don't? Considering Gaza as "the
Palestinian state" would also play directly into the hands of those (even more
than normally) right wing Zionists who are talking about a single state
excluding Gaza. Why should we buy into that? Hamas certainly don't seem about to
gift that to Israel.

Fred:
> No, my concern is with the international solidarity movement, where there
> are strong tendencies in many radical groups to see their pet "one-state
> solutions" as the only way forward, and partial steps as Bantustans,
> sell-outs, or hopeless "concentration camps," with all these conclusions
> seen as flowing from the apartheid analysis. While Edmundsen claims to
> reject this kind of thinking, his comments about Gaza show that he
> nonetheless buys into it.

Me:
"One-state solutions" are not simply pet projects of out-of-touch international
solidarity movements. A one state solution is the objective of the PFLP and
other left and secularist Palestinian groups. The PFLP for example sees a state
within the 67 borders as a stepping stone to a final one-state solution. I think
they are in a better position than Fred, Luko or me to make that sort of
judgement. I'd be surprised if they see calls for an independent Gaza as a
particularly shrewd strategy.

A future Palestinian state within 67 borders would not be a Bantustan for
several reasons. But mostly they have to do with Israel's needs. Israel doesn't
need Palestinian labour in the way South Africa needed the labour of the
Bantustans. South Africa wanted the Bantustans as nominal homelands and dumping
grounds where a reserve army of labour could eke out an existence at little cost
to the Apartheid state. Israel would primarily see a fragmented Palestinian
state as merely a dumping ground for people it "doesn't" want living or working
in Israel. Ideally, it would be so unpleasant that with the political issue of
Palestinian independence "resolved", Palestinians would simply leave and they
could eventually absorb them into a more "complete" Israel, including Judea and
Samaria. But in the sense that Palestinian independence within such states would
be largely constrained by Israel, that they would be largely surrounded by and
economically and politically dependent on Israel, they would bear some
resemblance to bantustans. In that sense, use of the term as a rhetorical device
would not be dishonest, although it isn't one I would ever use without strict
qualification. Many Palestinians do use the term apartheid themselves,
especially in relation to the "separation barrier". I tend to avoid it myself,
except, again in a qualified sense, to make specific points about what it is
like for Palestinians to live day to day. New Zealand had a huge anti apartheid
movement so the terms are a bit more familiar here amongst older people.

> Edmundson suggests that Gaza cannot be independent in any sense because the
> Palestinians and Gazan are not strong enough to prevent Israeli violations
> of their borders and so forth. But this would apply as well to independent
> to "independent" North Vietnam or "independent" Nor

[Marxism] US judge blocks stem cell research funding

[Stuart Munckton]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


<http://www.smh.com.au/world/science/stem-cell-research-funding-blocked-20100824-13qb6.html>
http://www.smh.com.au/world/science/stem-cell-research-funding-blocked-20100824-13qb6.html
-- 
“Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is humanity’s
original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made,
through disobedience and through rebellion.” — Oscar Wilde, Soul of Man
Under Socialism

“The free market is perfectly natural... do you think I am some kind of
dummy?” — Jarvis Cocker

Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Declining trees spells doom for planet

[Stuart Munckton]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


Declining trees spell gloom for planet
 Ben Cubby ENVIRONMENT EDITOR August 25, 2010

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/declining-trees-spell-gloom-for-planet-20100824-13qfn.html

 LESS rainfall and rising global temperatures are damaging one of the
world's best guardians against climate change: trees.

A global study, published in the journal *Science*, shows that the amount of
carbon dioxide being soaked up by the world's forests in the past decade has
declined, reversing a 20-year trend.

It diminishes hopes that global warming can be seriously slowed down by the
mass planting of trees in carbon sinks. Although plants generally grow
bigger as a result of absorbing carbon-enriched air, they need more water
and nutrients to do so, and they have been getting less.

A fierce drought that dried out vast areas of the Amazon Basin in 2005 is
seen as a key to the global decline in carbon sinks in the past decade, but
Australia is not immune.

''Australia is a significant contributor to the global pattern, and the
findings are consistent to what we have seen here,'' said a senior CSIRO
researcher and director of the Global Carbon Project, Dr Josep Canadell.

''There has been a measurable decline in the leaf area of plants this
decade, though we don't have all the data for Australia yet. What we have
seen is strongly consistent with projected patterns of climate change.''

The *Science* study, *Drought-induced Reduction in Global Terrestrial Net
Primary Production from 2000 through 2009*, used data from a NASA satellite
that orbits Earth every 15 days to build up a global map of changing leaf
density and forest cover. It estimated net primary production, a measurement
of how much CO2 is taken in by plants and stored as part of their biomass.

The study found that in some areas of the world, higher temperatures had
driven more plant growth. But these gains have been cancelled out by drier
conditions in rainforests, leading to the overall decline in total amount of
CO2 the forests are soaking up.

The findings reinforce work being done at the Australian Bureau of Rural
Sciences, which is researching how much carbon can be stored on a long-term
basis in the landscape.

Scientists say that a sustained decline in the amount of carbon being stored
in forests risks locking in a vicious cycle, in which trees absorb less
carbon because the world is warmer and drier, while the rising carbon levels
in the atmosphere continue to trap heat.

''There is no single silver bullet answer to this, but one of the partial
solutions is the protection of old-growth forests, which store a lot of CO2,
and the replanting of those that have been removed,'' said Professor Andy
Pitman, the co-director of the Climate Change Research Centre at the
University of NSW.

''This doesn't actually get to the heart of the problem though, which is
rising CO2 emissions from human activity.''

Rainfall patterns in Australia are expected to alter significantly over the
next few decades as average temperatures increase, with more rain likely to
fall in the north and north-west and less precipitation likely in southern
Australia. This means that many of Australia's existing old-growth forests,
which are located in NSW, Victoria and Tasmania, can be expected to become
less efficient carbon sinks.


-- 
“Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is humanity’s
original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made,
through disobedience and through rebellion.” — Oscar Wilde, Soul of Man
Under Socialism

“The free market is perfectly natural... do you think I am some kind of
dummy?” — Jarvis Cocker

Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Unexpected ideas [Re: Is Israel an apartheid state?]

[johnedmundson]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


johnedmund...@paradise.net.nz escribió:
>
>
> Fred wrote:
>
>> Do we defend the independence of Gaza? It is a fact and it will not do to
>> simply dissolve this development into terms like "prison camp" because of
>> the imperialist-supported Israeli boycott, war, and its brutal consequences.
>> Should the Gazans demand reintegration into Israel on the basis of one-man,
>> one-vote? More importantly, should we call on them to do so?
>
> I find it odd that someone with such long experience in the Marxist movement
> would even ask such a question. That "we" should call on the Gazans to demand
> anything!!! Of course we shouldn't. Who are "we" to tell the Gazans we know
> better than them how to conduct their struggle? Oh, silly me. The US SWP had a
> successful revolution and so has the authority to call on people to do that 
> sort of thing . . .
>

On which Nestor comments:
I don´t think Fred is delivering any lesson to anyone.

This said, however, I feel that John´s comment betrays the idea that
succesful revolutionaries have some right to tell others what to do.
Socialism in a single country seems to be a diehard...

Me;
No, I was just being facetious. I think the Palestinians have every right to
make their own decisions for themselves and Western Marxists have more important
things to do in their own back yards than start coming up with demands that "we"
should then "call on" the people of Gaza to take up.
Cheers,
John



Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] IRA/Catholic Church in 1972

[Ben Ben]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


Do comrades have any comments on this story, that broke today?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11077333

It would seem that an unholy trinity of the British government / RUC, the 
Catholic church in Northern Ireland and the even IRA conspired to deal with the 
fall-out over the involvement of a Catholic priest with a IRA bombing action in 
1972. All involved now, usefully, long since dead, and leaving a distinct lack 
of documents and images behind them… and the timing of this report’s 
publication seems like an attempt to get one back at Republicans and 
sympathisers after the very limited and grudging acknowledgments of the British 
government’s criminal actions in Bloody Sunday, made a couple of months ago 
(upon the publication of that report).

Even in respect of what’s now in the public domain, more to this story seems 
obvious; one wonders at what level the RUC’s “Research Unit” was aware of 
and/or sanctioned/facilitated the priest’s recruitment and action. One wonders 
at the opportunism of the Catholic hierarchy in accommodating the RUC’s 
cover-ups (or perhaps vulnerability to blackmail in relation to other crimes 
committed by the church, known to the RUC)… and what of those within the NI 
police force keen to investigate, apparently, only to then be stood down?

Despite the UK media’s extensive coverage, I haven’t come across anyone 
suggesting that the actions of the priest might be considered in relation to 
his South American counterparts, or Liberation Theology. Yet this seems the one 
connection between these three bodies that hasn’t been made by the 
commentariat: between the IRA and the Catholic church… suggesting that perhaps 
more is to be said?

I know that Fr Chesney’s actions have always been a matter for rumour and 
speculation; what other facets have historically been associated with this 
story?



  


Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Last man standing

[Alan Bradley]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


From: Gary MacLennan 
> I believe that the vote reflects the hegemony of the mining companies.
> The Qld economy is firmly based on coal exports.

The irony here is that the mining companies were behind the removal of Rudd, 
which contributed to the antipathy towards Labor here.

> Those Marxists that remain or somehow got into the Greens do largely as
> Alan appears to do.

That's a bit of a raw nerve, Gary.

Most of the Marxists in the Greens have drunk the green Kool-Aid. If you ask 
them, they'll tell you how wonderful the Greens are, how awful the non-Greens 
(Party) left are, and so on and so forth. If they oppose the non-Greens left 
joining the Greens en masse, it's because the non-Greens left are such Evil 
Sectarians, and not because the right of the Greens would go berserk. 

Others, of course, think that the non-Greens left SHOULD dissolve their 
organisations and join the Greens. These people are called 'idiots', and 
probably should be expelled from the Greens for the good of the organisation.

Personally, I'm mainly in the Greens because they're the only leftish 
organisation  within an 80 mile radius of where I live. Also, I'm a bit annoyed 
by the insularity of the inner-city Brisbane "Marxist" left, who, crudely 
lumped together in a completely incorrect manner, show very little interest or 
insight into anything much beyond their own little villages.

So I work with the Greens because the Greens are here. Doing so, though, has of 
course influenced my perspective.

I see that there are two main ways the Greens could destroy themselves. These 
could basically be summed up as: the NDP or the Australian Democrats.

My objection to the left joining the Greens is derived from the first case. I 
remember the amount of shit the then Socialist Workers Party took when they 
were (wrongfully) blamed for the right splitting from the NDP. I am not keen to 
see that happen again with the Greens.

If the Greens are going to destroy themselves, it has to be clear that it was 
the right that did it. In other words, it has to be the 'Democrats option', 
where the Greens implode due to opportunism and electoral cretinism. I don't 
expect this to happen in the short term, but I do expect the major parties to 
win back some of the Greens support, at least for a while.

Alan B


  


Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Last man standing

[Gary MacLennan]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


It's complicated.  The conservative coalition did very well in Queensland.
In fact if they win government it will be because of the swing in Qld.

I believe that the vote reflects the hegemony of the mining companies.  The
Qld economy is firmly based on coal exports.

There is also the age old parochialism of Queenslanders, who feel neglected
by and paranoid about the South i.e. New South Wales and Victoria.

However there is disaffection among the progressive educated middle class
with Labor and it is this I think that has given the Greens their increased
vote.

However I remain sceptical about the Greens having the capacity to morph
into an anti-capitalist Party.  To an extent this probably reflects the
continued influence of the former Anarchist clique who ran the Greens and
still have considerable if not dominant influence.

The Libertarians use the Green veto to preclude any discussion of class
politics in "The most important thing is the ozone layer, climate change,
etc".  There is also an element of out and out dislike or hatred of what
they call the "authoritarian Left" i.e. Marxist Left. In theoretical terms
the Libertarians have not advanced beyond the politics of Michnik, Kuron &
co.  The fact that these East European "dissidents" have long come in from
the cold and now enthusiastically support American Imperialism has had as
far as I can see no impact on the "thinking" of the Green Libertarians.

But I would not put too much store on political ideologies here.  They
function mainly to keep the Marxists out of the Greens. The fact that the
politics of the former Libertarians are out of date and frankly ridiculous
does not matter all that much in the climate of 'rural idiocy' that so
prevails in Queensland.

Those Marxists that remain or somehow got into the Greens do largely as Alan
appears to do.

comradely

Gary

Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Last man standing

[Alan Bradley]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


From: Louis Proyect 
> Maybe this makes more sense than the Socialist Alliance?

Well, if you mean: should the members of the Socialist Alliance disband it and 
join the Greens? - My answer is an unambiguous NO!!!

I'm a member of the Greens, and any attempt by socialists to join the Greens en 
masse would cause right wing Greens to start a civil war that would tear the 
Greens apart, and almost certainly end up with the socialists expelled. 
Including me, because of course I would side with them against the right.

More to the point, of course, such a faction fight would be a godsend to the 
major parties and the bourgeois media, who would go into a frenzy of redbaiting.

Basically, the Greens would split, their vote would collapse, and essentially, 
they would die.

And the left would be blamed, even though the right would be responsible. This 
must not be allowed to occur.

Another coal article: 
http://www.thechronicle.com.au/story/2010/08/25/friends-flag-new-policy-as-crucial/


  


Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Last man standing

[Louis Proyect]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


Alan Bradley wrote:
> This is part of why the Greens performed so well in the recent Australian 
> election.
> 
> (It's also relatively near where I live).
> 
> http://toowoomba.finda.com.au/features/2010/08/23/acland-darling-downs-coal-mine-glen-beutel-last/

Maybe this makes more sense than the Socialist Alliance?


Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Last man standing

[Alan Bradley]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


This is part of why the Greens performed so well in the recent Australian 
election.

(It's also relatively near where I live).

http://toowoomba.finda.com.au/features/2010/08/23/acland-darling-downs-coal-mine-glen-beutel-last/


  


Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Is Israel an apartheid state?

[Fred Feldman]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


Manuel quoted me:

Fred said: " I want stress that I would have no trouble accepting the
"apartheid" label (as a popular synonym for "racist regime") if I was
convinced that comrades really grasped that the Palestinians have a right to
fight not just for a single-state Palestine solution, but for whatever they
are strong enough to take in their native land."

Manuel agrees with me, seemingly, and then complains:

However, I always find it perplexing (read peeved) to hear self-professed
revolutionists worrying whether popularizing a well-known sentiment
("apartheid Israel") will somehow lead the Palestinian fighters and their
allies to make a wrong turn because they seek to build popular support for
their struggle on a world stage in terms comprehensible especially to the
oppressed nationalities and nations never mind the privileged workers and
students of imperialist countries. 

Fred responds:
Where did I suggest that the "apartheid Israel" slogan would lead
Palestinian fighters astray? Nowhere, although I admit that Palestinian
fighters are not unique in the world in being incapable of making mistakes.

No, my concern is with the international solidarity movement, where there
are strong tendencies in many radical groups to see their pet "one-state
solutions" as the only way forward, and partial steps as Bantustans,
sell-outs, or hopeless "concentration camps," with all these conclusions
seen as flowing from the apartheid analysis. While Edmundsen claims to
reject this kind of thinking, his comments about Gaza show that he
nonetheless buys into it.

I believe this is true not only in regard to Hamas but even the weak and
disorganized PLO leadership in the West Bank, where the mass fight against
the settlements is a fight to retrieve bits and pieces of territory for a
potential Palestinian state, which the Israeli ruling class continues to
block despite the alleged advantage of the "Bantustans" that would
supposedly surely result. Israel has a ruling class, by the way, and it is
not just all Jews, to put it mildly.
 
The fact is that single state solutions (including the "democratic secular
state," logical and inevitable as they MAY prove to be as ultimate
solutions, do not have a mass base today among either the Palestinians (most
of whom think they are utopian at best) or the colonial-settler population. 

The fight has to begin from where the Palestinians are, from their real
situation and consciousness their real level of unity, the strength or
weakness of their alliances, and the strength of the enemy which is far from
evaporating as yet.

Many non-Palestinian radicals assume that Hamas rejects a two-state
solution, favoring a united Islamic Israel, free of all Jews. But this
"militant" position is yesterday's paper. Hamas clearly favors a two-state
agreement. Of course, they do not believe this should involve only Gaza but
also the West Bank, where they attempt, whether in the best way or not is
beside the point in this context, to find some common ground with the PLO
that wants to fight.

It may be true, as Manuel speculates, that only the most implacable foes of
Israel gain popular support in Palestine, but for them this is expressed in
struggle, not in programmatic positions. There is no sign at all that the
majority of the Palestinian population insists on a one state solution or
nothing. All signs are to the contrary. Those who fight get support and
sympathy. Those who seem to cave in GENERALLY (not absolutely and
unanimously) are viewed with contempt.

Edmundson suggests that Gaza cannot be independent in any sense because the
Palestinians and Gazan are not strong enough to prevent Israeli violations
of their borders and so forth. But this would apply as well to independent
to "independent" North Vietnam or "independent" North Korea or even (future
tense quite possibly) "independent Iran" which were not strong enough to
prevent their territory from being invaded and attacked by the imperialist
powers. Since Cuba could be blockaded militarily and is still b

That's why I brought forward Arafat's 1975 (at the UN) perspective of
establishing a state on any territory that can be liberated from Israel,
which still seems sound to me.  And counterposing such rhetorical "final
solutions" to the partial struggles that go on and must go on today to
assert Palestinian sovereignty wherever it can be asserted seems to me like
complete sectarian nonsense.
Fred Feldman
 




Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Israel tells schools not to teach nakba

[Dennis Brasky]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


>
>
> Israel tells schools not to teach nakba
>
> Government officials warned Israeli teachers last week not to
> cooperate with a civic group that seeks to educate Israelis about how
> the Palestinians view the loss of their homeland and the establishment
> of the state of Israel in 1948...
> To read click here:
>
> http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100822/FOREIGN/708219932/1011/NEWS
>
>

Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Climate & Capitalism, August 24, 2010

[Ian Angus]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


CLIMATE AND CAPITALISM
An online journal focusing on capitalism, climate change, and the
ecosocialist alternative.
http://climateandcapitalism.com
Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/CandC-FaceBook

August 24, 2010

GREENS GAIN IN AUSTRALIAN ELECTION
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=3035
Progressive social movements will be looking to the Greens to offer
strong support in the struggles ahead, no matter which major party
eventually forms government

OUTRAGE AT SHELL-FUNDED UN REPORT ON NIGERIA OIL SPILLS
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=3037
UNEP study using information from the oil companies responsible for
the massive oil pollution in Nigeria

RUSSIA’S FIRES AND PAKISTAN’S FLOODS:
A TASTE OF WHAT’S TO COME
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=3021
The disasters of the past few weeks sound a warning: this is the way
of the 21st century, if decisive action isn’t taken soon

THIS IS AGRIBUSINESS:
EXPLOITING WORKERS AND POISONING CONSUMERS
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=3026
If the theory of ‘consumer sovereignty’ is correct, then U.S.
consumers must want salmonella in their omelets, and the DeCoster
agribusiness operation, a habitual violator of safety, environment and
other laws, is just responding to market demand.

ECONOMICS: GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=3023
We interrupt this journal for a brief rant

NEW BOOK:
CLIMATE CHANGE: WHO’S CARRYING THE BURDEN?
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=3015
New book from CCPA “rallies the call of climate justice advocates and
activists concerned with system change not climate change”

+++

Other Recent Articles

THE LATIN AMERICAN LEFT AND INDIGENOUS AUTONOMY
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=2986

ARE THE SUPER-RICH HUMAN?
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=3002

BOOK REVIEW: BILL MCKIBBEN’S EAARTH
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=2991

OILING THE WAR MACHINE
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=2988

DID CONSUMERS CAUSE THE BP OIL DISASTER?
by Ian Angus
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=2957


Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com