Re: [Marxism] Animal Liberation and Socialism

[Max Clark]

If the question of the human is such a outré fad then why can I cite near 
endlessly from Marx with regards to it? E.g., from his critique of St. Max in 
the German Ideology:

'The positive expression human corresponds to the definite relations 
predominant at a certain stage of production and the way of satisfying needs 
determined by them, just as the negative expression inhuman corresponds to 
the attempt to negate these predominant relations and the way of satisfying 
needs prevailing under them without changing the existing mode of production...'

See also the 1844 Manuscripts for tens upon tens of related, if not necessarily 
non-contradictory, passages. 

The ignorance and bigotry camouflaged as a critique of this fad are actually 
an impoverishment of Marx's heritage. For shame. 

The very best,
(St.) Max Clark

http://clarkmax.blogspot.com


  


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Re: [Marxism] Animal Liberation and Socialism

[David Picón Álvarez]

What makes it clear for me that animal liberation is un-marxist is how the 
approaches these people take to the question are completely moralistic and 
not based on materialism. So for instance I'm sympathetic to arguments about 
how conditions of life for farm animals lead to actual dangers for people, 
like the way they are so close they end up needing antibiotics all the time, 
etc. But a moralistic appeal to animal rights(where do rights come from?) 
seems outside our tradition to me.

--David.



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Re: [Marxism] Animal Liberation and Socialism

[Suresh]

To lower the temperature a bit, it's interesting that you mentioned how 
adrenaline originally taken from horse donors can now be artificially 
synthesized. Although, we may not like to think in terms that transcend the 
class struggle, I do think some of the issues related to animal welfare may be 
amenable to *technological fixes*. Eventually, in vitro meat, for example, is 
likely to substitute for some percentage of meat products currently consumed. 
To the extent that it doesn't simply raise the consumption of animal protein 
altogether, it will lead to fewer slaughterhouses, and thus less suffering. And 
conceivably, it may be more environmentally friendly as well. You won't have 
the same levels of methane produced or animal refuse. And this will be a good 
thing, regardless of whether one wants to call oneself an animal rights 
activist or not. 

- Original Message 
From: nada dwalters...@gmail.com
To: Suresh borhyae...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 4:23:18 PM
Subject: [Marxism]  Animal Liberation and Socialism

Suresh, I actually agree, because your judgment is devoid of 
anthropomorphic moralism. And we are making this judgment. You are 
already miles ahead of Singer. Singer and all ALF types have no such 
approach to this issue...they use the concept of 'rights' (you have yet 
to do this, I suspect you will not) and elevating animals legally to 
that of humans. We can, and should be, sympathetic to the plight of 
higher animals, our 'near cousins' facing extinction and...cruelty.

But the Singer and Spira creed is that the *biggest* issue is humans 
using animals as food source. Everything else is secondary to this since 
this, in their view, is the biggest moral violation of animal rights as 
it involves the most number of animals. It's been a while since I read 
Singer's material so I don't know if it means everything from bovines to 
herring. I actually don't know if he makes a distinction.

David


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