Re: [Marxism] World's Glaciers Continue to Melt at Historic Rates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Paula wrote: Gary, there will always be droughts. They are a normal phenomenon - as are storms, floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. They wouldn't be so horrific if society was rationally organized, and that's the main point the left should be making. My reply: Sorry I missed this Paula. I have been traveling. Look we are obviously at the stage where we have nothing new to say to each other. But I will make a final effort at dialogue. I have to confess though -that I simply don't understand where you and Shawn are coming from. As I see it there are three positions. A.. The world is not getting warmer. B. Global warming is a fact but it is caused by cyclical events. C Global warming is a fact and it is caused or aggravated by carbon emissions. The deniers seem to me to move in an unprincipled way between positions A. and B. For instance it seems to me at times you occupy position B and at other times you move to A. Certainly Shawn bewilders me with his switching. My position is C. and I also add that the cost of holding B. is greater than the cost of holding C. If people like me are wrong then it is not a catastrophe. If you and Shawn are wrong then it is a terminal disaster for the human race. I personally think that puts a moral onus on all you Bers to be extra careful. Now Shawn jumping up and down about routine academic thuggery at East Anglia is not being serious in my opinion. I teach a class on scientific method. I am absolutely frank about the academy. When paradigms clash it is like something out of the Godfather movies. I have lived all that shit and I know it. But I tell my students that they must put the dialectics of epistemology i.e academic thuggery aside and seek the ontological. Jones may be and I am certainly inclined to think so one of the greatest shits on the planet but he may still be right about global warming. As the notorious Chinese Machiavelli said seek truth from facts! comradely regards Gary Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] World's Glaciers Continue to Melt at Historic Rates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2/11/2010 4:19 AM, Gary MacLennan wrote: I teach a class on scientific method. I am absolutely frank about the academy. When paradigms clash it is like something out of the Godfather movies. hahahahahha. nice ... clash of little kingdoms and all that... I have lived all that shit and I know it. But I tell my students that they must put the dialectics of epistemology i.e academic thuggery aside and seek the ontological. Jones may be and I am certainly inclined to think so one of the greatest shits on the planet but he may still be right about global warming. As the notorious Chinese Machiavelli said seek truth from facts! Gary, what -- as you see it -- did Jones do that was so bad? the trick issue is not an issue scientifically. as you say, bad-mouthing goes on all the time. plus these research centers are deluged by denialist requests and they have no PR departments like Exxon (pacem Shawn) to handle the overload. i've been planning to write on the IPCC/CRU storm for a while now, but am curious to hear your thoughts Gary in more detail. Les Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] World's Glaciers Continue to Melt at Historic Rates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis asked: Why is so hard to pin you down on the *science*? Louis, it's because the science itself is difficult to pin down. That's why scientists are still investigating climate change, improving their models, etc. For an example see this recent report, 'Water Vapor Caused One-Third of Global Warming in 1990s, Study Reveals': http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/29/water-vapour-climate-change Paula Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] World's Glaciers Continue to Melt at Historic Rates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Paula wrote: Louis asked: Why is so hard to pin you down on the *science*? Louis, it's because the science itself is difficult to pin down. No, what is difficult to pin down is Paula. You posted a refutation on the Bolivia glacier melting based on a article that clearly states that exceptionally high temperatures in the summer over a 4 year period melted it. You are a charlatan and something of a troll, I should add. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] World's Glaciers Continue to Melt at Historic Rates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2/11/10 5:19 PM, Paula wrote: Louis, it's because the science itself is difficult to pin down. That's why scientists are still investigating climate change, improving their models, etc. For an example see this recent report, 'Water Vapor Caused One-Third of Global Warming in 1990s, Study Reveals': http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/29/water-vapour-climate-change for which there is a nice discussion over at realclimate.org from a few weeks ago: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2010/01/the-wisdom-of-solomon/ along with copious scientific discussion. doubtless, Paula is entranced by the headlines because the media speculates this could fuel further attacks on the science of climate change. i assume she knows climate scientists have ALWAYS known about water vapour and its contribution to climate. as the authors of the current study state, their work is investigating decadal changes in climate due to changes in water vapour concentrations in the lower stratosphere. and in fact this may explain some suggestion that warming leveled off some in the last decade. remember that denialists ragged on Kevin Trenberth for stating we should have a better handle on *short-term* changes. well, here is a contribution, which Paula turns around and tries to push its relevance, presumably, for the longer term climate dynamics. here is from Trenberth's website, as a response to the CRU emails: In my case, one cherry-picked email quote has gone viral and at last check it was featured in over 99,200 items (in Google). Here is the quote: /The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't./ It is amazing to see this particular quote lambasted so often. It stems from a paper I published this year bemoaning our inability to effectively monitor the energy flows associated with short-term climate variability. It is quite clear from the paper that I was not questioning the link between anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions and warming, or even suggesting that recent temperatures are unusual in the context of short-term natural variability. http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/Trenberth/statement.html see also: http://www.skepticalscience.com/Understanding-Trenberths-travesty.html nice coverage at NOAA: The new study used calculations and models to show that the cooling from this change caused surface temperatures to increase about 25 percent more slowly than they would have otherwise, due only to the increases in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2010/20100128_watervapor.html and better coverage in the popular press: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704194504575031404275769886.html Les Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] World's Glaciers Continue to Melt at Historic Rates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Paula wrote: Gary, there will always be droughts. They are a normal phenomenon - as are storms, floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. They wouldn't be so horrific if society was rationally organized, and that's the main point the left should be making. Why is so hard to pin you down on the *science*? You are like an eel slathered in vaseline. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] World's Glaciers Continue to Melt at Historic Rates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis wrote: Paula, have you ever read any Marxist ecological literature? [clip] Please don't waste our time. I see - another Argument from Authority. It's a good thing those Authorities have got everything worked out. Paula Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] World's Glaciers Continue to Melt at Historic Rates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 4:11 PM +1000 2/6/10, Gary MacLennan wrote: But we shouldn't worry should we as them there long haired scientists are all a bunch of fakers and liars and data fudgers, aren't they? They might be communists and homosexuals too, y'know. (Thomas Kuhn + Carolyn Merchant) Hyperbole Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] World's Glaciers Continue to Melt at Historic Rates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Paula wrote: Critical minds would ask a few questions about this before jumping to conclusions - for example, what is meant by 'historic rates'? How were the highest and medium scenarios obtained? And, why is there 'an expected continuation in the rise of global average temperatures'? But supposing Haeberli is right, and the Pyrenees are ice-free by the middle of the century, how catastrophic would that be? More catastrophic than the level of unemployment in Spain, which has just reached 4 million people? More catastrophic than Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc? Paula, have you ever read any Marxist ecological literature? Like John Bellamy Foster, Mike Davis, Donald Worster, or Paul Burkett? You seem singularly uninformed, especially in light of your organized intervention around these questions. Please don't waste our time. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
