Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
Einde O'Callaghan (eind...@freenet.de) wrote on 2009-09-21 at 00:28:04 in about Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left: The key question for Marxists in Germany is not whether DIE LINKE is reformist or not, but where Marxists should be active given the weakness of Marxism in Germany. What is Marxism and what who is Marxist (both with capital M!)? My personal view is that they definitely should not be standing on the sidelines making abstract comments about how inadequate DIE LINKE is. Inadequate for what task? Besides, what is the big difference with doing entryism in the PDL[1]? That is a recipe for disaster analogous to the Class against class! rhetoric of Third-Period Stalinism - although on a lesser scale given that German Marxists today are not as entrenched in the working class as the KPD was. Supporting the combined socialdemocrats and stalinists in their fight for entry into bourgeois governments is something completely different from fighting for a common front of _action_ to defend the working class movement and our institutions against a fascist onslought. Very strange that you can confuse these two issues. And ask yourself: how do you answer the bourgeois commentators who wonder about how little the PDL gained in and from the economic crisis? Comradely yours, Lüko Willms Frankfurt, Germany YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
Einde O'Callaghan (eind...@freenet.de) wrote on 2009-09-21 at 17:20:58 in about Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left: Lüko Willms wrote: Einde O'Callaghan (eind...@freenet.de) wrote on 2009-09-21 at 00:28:04 in about Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left: The key question for Marxists in Germany is not whether DIE LINKE is reformist or not, but where Marxists should be active given the weakness of Marxism in Germany. What is Marxism and what who is Marxist (both with capital M!)? If you don't know what Marxism is (always written with a caöpital letter in English!) I asked you what YOU understand by it. I don't know why you are a member of this list because a number of interesting people from various continents exchange their views on this list (although some very important ones, reflecting the one and only revolutionary leadership in power, has been banned from this list) or run a major German-language website devoted to Marxist theory. it is devoted to documents of the working class movement -- scientific, calls for battle, polemics, etc I consider myself a Marxist (i.e. somebody who attempts to operate on teh basis of the theories developed by marx and Engels and developed by others who consciously regarded themselves as following in this theoretical and political tradition, e.g. Lenin, Luxemburg and Trotsky inter alia). There are certainly quite a number of people who call themselves Marxist and who would tell you that you are not one, or a traitor to it. So what is a Marxist? You might say that Marxists are only those whom I call Marxist. My personal view is that they definitely should not be standing on the sidelines making abstract comments about how inadequate DIE LINKE is. Inadequate for what task? You did not answer that question. Besides, what is the big difference with doing entryism in the PDL[1]? That is a recipe for disaster analogous to the Class against class! rhetoric of Third-Period Stalinism - although on a lesser scale given that German Marxists today are not as entrenched in the working class as the KPD was. Supporting the combined socialdemocrats and stalinists in their fight for entry into bourgeois governments is something completely different from fighting for a common front of _action_ to defend the working class movement and our institutions against a fascist onslought. Very strange that you can confuse these two issues. You did not comment on this either. And ask yourself: how do you answer the bourgeois commentators who wonder about how little the PDL gained in and from the economic crisis? Neither this. I consider that DIE LINKE is a place where a larger number of people dissatisfied with the system as it exists have gathered. True. Among these people there are many peoßple who are open to new ideas and ways of thinking because their traditional political allegiances have been shattered. I have rather the impression that most are closed to new ideas, and just entered the PDL because their own strategy failed, and they now can jump on somebody else's bandwagon, hoping that other forces will carry them forward. This makes it a fertile ground for political intervention by Marxists, certainly more fertile than what existed before the emergence of the WASG. So did you recruit a lot of people to YOUR group? Has the IS group you belong to been dissolved? Does it no longer do any public work on its own? Adopting a prolier than thou attitude and standing alone in glorious isolation is certainly not going to advance the struggle for socialism. Well, you just told me that your attitude is much better than mine. I admit that we may make mistakes but if we can learn from our mistakes and build an organised Marxist core in Germany then we will have made some advance. So that organized Marxist core it the PDL? Or do you operate a public faction? Of course, if people have given up on the idea of socialism - as lots of people in the PDL have done, or never wanted socialism (e.g. the trade-union officials who formed the WASG, and who never wanted a fighting alternative to the class-collaborationist trade-union policy they were and are involved in). as even people who run websites called Voices of the Proletarian Revolution may well do - this is all irrelevant and a retreat into bored cynicism is probably the best way out for a former revolutionary. Whow! Now you really hit me! Should I go to a corner and stand ashamed for 15 minutes, head turned to the wall? The issue is really not if you or I are members of the PDL, but my asessment of that party, which you don't agree with or just don't like to hear. What makes you think you know about my membership or not of the PDL? Do you think I
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
Lenin's Tomb wrote: On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Lüko Willms lueko.wil...@t-online.dewrote: The Partei Die Linke shows the way forward? Well, yes, back into bourgeois politics. Yeah, because the working masses have already *abandoned* bourgeois politics, and the Linke wants to *trick* them back into that old shell game. I feel that both Richard and Lüko have an over-negative attitude to DIE LINKE. It is correct that the party is not THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE PARTY OF THE PROLETARIAN REVOLUTION but adopting an abstentionist attitude to the party is a not very productive way of intervening in the current crisis of German politics. I recommend both Richard and Lüko - and anybody else who is interested - to read the article by Oliver Nachtwey in the forthcoming issue of International Socialism Journal, which has just been translated into English by yours truly. Einde O'Callaghan YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Einde O'Callaghan eind...@freenet.dewrote: I feel that both Richard and Lüko have an over-negative attitude to DIE LINKE. Ahem, ahem! It was *sarcasm*. -- Richard Seymour Writer and blogger Email: leninstombb...@googlemail.com Website: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/leninology Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Seymour_(writer) Book: http://www.versobooks.com/books/nopqrs/s-titles/seymour_r_the_liberal_defense_of_murder.shtml YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
Lenin's Tomb wrote: On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Einde O'Callaghan eind...@freenet.dewrote: I feel that both Richard and Lüko have an over-negative attitude to DIE LINKE. Ahem, ahem! It was *sarcasm*. It must be living in Germany that does it - I'm obviously suffering from an irony deficit! However, I still recommend you - and everybody else - to read Oliver Nachtwey's excellent article in the next ISJ. Einde YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
Lüko Willms wrote: Bhaskar Sunkara (bhaskar.sunk...@gmail.com) wrote on 2009-09-19 at 15:45:13 in about Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left: There is a militant minority in Die Linke that wants to build an oppositional movement and not be mere left-social democrats. The party is not even _left_ social democrats, but just socialdemocrat. A merger of the real social democrats of the SPD with the main stalinist party. And there is nobody advancing a revolutionary program for the working class movement. Sure, the existence of the party is an expression of the fact that the cut-back politics of the past goverments are not accepted without a murmur by the masses. I'll vote for the Pirates next sunday. Vote for the PSG! The only serious choice! Was repräsentiert die Piratenpartei? http://www.wsws.org/de/2009/sep2009/pira-s05.shtml YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
Why do I keep receiving multiple copies of the same post? Jim Farmelant On So, 20 Sep 2009 10:32:05 +0200 (MES) =?iso-8859-1?q?L=FCko_Willms?= lueko.wil...@t-online.de writes: Bhaskar Sunkara (bhaskar.sunk...@gmail.com) wrote on 2009-09-19 at 15:45:13 in about Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left: There is a militant minority in Die Linke that wants to build an oppositional movement and not be mere left-social democrats. The party is not even _left_ social democrats, but just socialdemocrat. Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTFoYdgq8ovZ2gnHV17ZaC2HGDdPOe8gkWisma9lWgkoza1lKNc180/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/783/oskarlafontaine.php Oskar Lafontaine: ‘We want to govern’ The results for the German left party Die Linke in the August 30 regional elections are impressive, particularly the 21.3% achieved in the federal state of Saarland. But is this the beginning of the end for the “party of opposition”? Tina Becker takes a closer look Germany’s so-called ‘super Sunday’ on August 30 was not so super for everybody. The big parties were big losers. Because the parliamentary elections for the national *Bundestag* are less than a month away (September 27), the elections results in three of the 16 German federal states (Thuringia, Saxony and Saarland) have been interpreted as a ‘dry run’. The conservative Christian Democratic Union of chancellor Angela Merkel did worse than predicted - which means the bad results for the Social Democrats (SPD) did not stand out quite as much as expected. The fact that the SPD share of the vote in the east German federal state of Thuringia, for example, increased from a measly 9.8% to a scarcely less measly 10.4% is hardly worth celebrating - especially as the lowest ever turnout means that, in reality, the number of voters remained roughly the same. The only ones for whom Sunday really was ‘super’ are the smaller parties. The Greens, the Liberal Democrats (FDP) and Die Linke increased their share of the vote almost everywhere and are likely to play the kingmaker in the regional government coalitions that will now be formed. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
I don't think it really is as simple as either Luko or Einde (sp?) make it out to be. Some places where Die Linke have entered coalitions with the SPD do show both the limits to electoral politics and the necessity to meet the people were they are at to squeeze out even the slightest of gains for people. However, has the left not learned anything from the many attempts to enter electoral politics within bourgeois democratic limits without a very large movement on the sidelines. If Die Linke has committed one fatal error it is to place more emphasis on electoral party tactics than on movement building. If/when they fail to bring socialism to Germany it will be because of this failure. I think some of the discussions that Bhuskar had linked to a few weeks ago lay out the inherent problems with trying to govern under the current system and these could be elaborated on by bringing in concrete historical examples (of which there are many) of failed attempts to capture bourgeois states in an effort to transcend capitalism. This also relates to the point I made a few weeks ago about the blessing/curse of the US two party system where a anti-capitalist party would never have the pleasure/agony of governing. Brad YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
What about the Antikapitalistische Linke and the other opposition groups. I may be wrong, but I heard they form a fairly sizeable minority within the party. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
Dennis Brasky (dmozart1...@gmail.com) wrote on 2009-09-19 at 13:18:46 in about [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left: [Frank Spieth's] anti-capitalist, pro-social justice Die Linke is striking a chord with an increasingly disenfranchised electorate, espousing causes such as inequality, reunification issues and, crucially, the war in Afghanistan that are finding a receptive audience in both east and west A party which is very eagerly looking forward to manage the bourgeois state. A party which is for a minimum wage, but not for a militant trade union struggle to raise wages for all and to defend the living conditions for all. A party which is for the nationalisations of banks in Sunday speeches, but in the practical day to day international crisis of the banking system does not put the nationalisation of the banking system into a single bank forward, but only bickers about the conditions of the bailouts. A party which is against imperialist wars only if they have not been OK'ed by the UN Security Council. No thanks. The Partei Die Linke shows the way forward? Well, yes, back into bourgeois politics. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt, Germany YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Lüko Willms lueko.wil...@t-online.dewrote: The Partei Die Linke shows the way forward? Well, yes, back into bourgeois politics. Yeah, because the working masses have already *abandoned* bourgeois politics, and the Linke wants to *trick* them back into that old shell game. -- Richard Seymour Writer and blogger Email: leninstombb...@googlemail.com Website: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/leninology Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Seymour_(writer) Book: http://www.versobooks.com/books/nopqrs/s-titles/seymour_r_the_liberal_defense_of_murder.shtml YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
Lenin's Tomb leninstombb...@googlemail.com wrote: the working masses have already *abandoned* bourgeois politics, and the Linke wants to *trick* them back into that old shell game. Is it just me or does laughter tend to echo in Lenin's Tomb? ML YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
There is a militant minority in Die Linke that wants to build an oppositional movement and not be mere left-social democrats. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
The point is the absurdity of the notion that the German working class has repudiated bourgeois politics ML YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
Not only was the content of Richard's post dripping with sarcasm he even put asterisks for extra emphasis. On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: The point is the absurdity of the notion that the German working class has repudiated bourgeois politics ML YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/bhaskar.sunkara%40gmail.com YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Germany's Die Linke shows the way for the left
yes. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
