Re: [MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
Hi, On 04/03/2011 06:30 AM, Gary Birkett wrote: could you post the spreadsheet or a screenshot of the timezones onto the meeting wiki, I think visually showing the timing differences and difficulties with planning would help. I think it would actually help with more meetings than just the TSG and allow the other WGs to actually plan meetings better too. World Clock Meeting Planner is great for this: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=4&day=4&year=2011&p1=101&p2=179&p3=224&p4=248 Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docmaster Email: dne...@maemo.org Jabber: nea...@gmail.com ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 7:04 AM, Carsten Munk wrote: > On Sun Apr 3 2011 01:15:18 AM CEST, Jeremiah Foster > wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Foster, Dawn M >> wrote: >> > On Apr 2, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Jeremiah Foster wrote >> > > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Foster, Dawn M >> > > wrote: >> > > > I wanted to let everyone know that we have a new time for our >> > > > Technical Steering Group meetings. While the 20:00 UTC meetings >> > > > were convenient for the Americas and Europe, it was very difficult >> > > > for people in Asia to participate. [...] >> > > > If you have a better time that works >> > for more people than the current time, I encourage you to propose it. >> >> I propose we leave the time as it is until there is more open >> discussion about when these meetings should occur. I don't see a >> consensus forming around the time yet. >> >> Do those who plan to attend the TSG have opinions on when the meeting >> should be held? > > While it is my belief that the time schedules of the TSG meeting is up to the > members of the TSG to decide The TSG unilaterally decides policy and process in MeeGo. This is a problem because those who sit on the TSG have their company's interests at heart (naturally.) This means that Nokia and Intel decide MeeGo policy along with a member of the Linux Foundation. Shouldn't that be solely the Linux Foundation instead which presumably will be less biased? Currently its just two companies business interests that shape MeeGo policy, one of those companies is scaling back its contribution significantly. > Rotating the meeting from noon pacific, 10pm finland, 3am Asia to > 11pm pacific, 9am finland, 2pm(?) asia seems like a fair time. If there is a > topic you're especially passionate about, it's possible to post comments on > mailing list/have someone be your proxy or show up - 3am in Asia made this > impossible for many to show up. But there has been no presence of LG and China Mobile at the TSG meetings. They didn't show up at the nomination which is reasonable since it was at a ridiculous time for them. But there is no email from Yonghui Wang from China Mobile, for example, on any of the lists I follow or on the Handset list. Yet he's been appointed to the Handset WG. Your suggestion of sending mail to the list or sending a proxy to the meetings is a good one, why hasn't this been done? In fact, why don't we move the decision making process for the TSG to a mailing list where people from any time zone can participate and decision making is done in the open? > Given we have two new players (at least) such as China Mobile and LGE in > MeeGo, it is fair to schedule the meetings to allow them to participate > properly. For those thinking they won't show up anyway, at least LGE guys > (plus handset WG member) already hang out in the MeeGo IRC channels, so not a > big leap to join another IRC channel. If by "players" you mean companies that will make decisions about MeeGo then I don't think it is in fact fair. I thought that participation in the workgroups was going to be contribution based; where is the contribution from these two "players"? What code has been contributed? What architectural decisions made? If positions in the workgroups are not contribution based, what are they based on? Regards, Jeremiah ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 6:21 AM, Thiago Macieira wrote: > On Sunday, 3 de April de 2011 01:15:18 Jeremiah Foster wrote: >> By what measure? Most of the people on the mailing lists are from >> Europe and US. Are we talking corporate head counts or developer >> participation? > > Are you on the same mailing lists as I am? There are many Chinese names > posting on these mailing lists... I mentioned specifically the MeeGo community list. I went through the archives for 2011 and saw very few Asian email addresses comparative to European and US based. Granted this is merely checking things like some...@somecompany.in or intel.com and not some...@gmail.com. There is no way to know just by name which region someone works in. This is why it is so important that those who want to attend the meetings speak up and address the community list. I saw not one single request for meeting times on that list. Shouldn't the TSG meeting times be supported by requests from those who want to attend? Where are those requests? Regards, Jeremiah ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
On Sun Apr 3 2011 01:15:18 AM CEST, Jeremiah Foster wrote: > On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Foster, Dawn M > wrote: > > On Apr 2, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Jeremiah Foster wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Foster, Dawn M > > > wrote: > > > > I wanted to let everyone know that we have a new time for our > > > > Technical Steering Group meetings. While the 20:00 UTC meetings > > > > were convenient for the Americas and Europe, it was very difficult > > > > for people in Asia to participate. > > > > > > Can you explain the decision making process behind this decision? > > > > Here's the logic ... > > > > Needless to say, scheduling global meetings is challenging, > > Understood. > > > I sat down with a spreadsheet marked with times for US west coast, > > western Europe and eastern Asia, which seems to be where most > > of the people working on MeeGo are located, > > By what measure? Most of the people on the mailing lists are from > Europe and US. Are we talking corporate head counts or developer > participation? > > > Clearly, our previous TSG meeting time, 20:00 UTC, Noon Pacific > > and 2:00 / 3:00 am in eastern Asia was making it nearly impossible > > for people from Asia to attend, and the TSG had been receiving > > requests to move the meeting to a time that was more Asia-friendly. > > But wouldn't these requests show up on the mailing list? I went > through the MeeGo community list and I saw very few participants from > Asia at all. And for 2011 I saw not one single request to change the > time of the TSG meeting. If the TSG is receiving these requests, from > whom are they coming and how? > > > I see this not as something that gets decided once and never > > changed. I expect these meetings to move around in time to > > share the burden of early / late meetings and to adapt to locations > > where we have people working on MeeGo. > > I totally agree. But there has to be consultation with those who will > actually attend the meetings. > > > > Naturally MeeGo needs to have times that are friendly to all regions > > > but this decision seems to have been made without any consultation > > > whatsoever with MeeGo developers. > > > > > > > In all fairness, I did post this new time to the mailing lists almost 2 > > weeks in advance of the first meeting to give people time to ask > > questions or voice objections. If you have a better time that works > > for more people than the current time, I encourage you to propose it. > > I propose we leave the time as it is until there is more open > discussion about when these meetings should occur. I don't see a > consensus forming around the time yet. > > Do those who plan to attend the TSG have opinions on when the meeting > should be held? While it is my belief that the time schedules of the TSG meeting is up to the members of the TSG to decide - as the presenters come to them, not reverse(Dawn has been acting as 'secretary' for the meetings), I'd like to offer positive feedback to Dawn's proposal. Usually when people agree with the time they don't protest. Rotating the meeting from noon pacific, 10pm finland, 3am Asia to 11pm pacific, 9am finland, 2pm(?) asia seems like a fair time. If there is a topic you're especially passionate about, it's possible to post comments on mailing list/have someone be your proxy or show up - 3am in Asia made this impossible for many to show up. Given we have two new players (at least) such as China Mobile and LGE in MeeGo, it is fair to schedule the meetings to allow them to participate properly. For those thinking they won't show up anyway, at least LGE guys (plus handset WG member) already hang out in the MeeGo IRC channels, so not a big leap to join another IRC channel. BR, Carsten Munk > > Regards, > > Jeremiah > ___ > MeeGo-dev mailing list > MeeGo-dev@meego.com > http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev > http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Foster, Dawn M wrote: > > On Apr 2, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Jeremiah Foster wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Foster, Dawn M > wrote: > ... > I sat down with a spreadsheet marked with times for US west coast, > western Europe and eastern Asia, which seems to be where most > of the people working on MeeGo are located, so I tried to optimize > for these 3 locations. I put standard working hours in green, yellow > for times 2 hours outside of working times and red for everything > else. Since we've (U.S. west coast) had the meeting in the middle > of our workday up to now, we thought it was only fair to give us the > red time (now 11PM), western Europe was yellow / green (6am / 8am > for most people) and green for Asia (2pm / 3pm for most). > > The other time we considered, based on the red / yellow / green > chart, was 6am pacific, 2pm / 4pm western Europe and 9pm / > 10pm in eastern Asia. In this scenario, Asia would again get the > most inconvenient time, which did not seem fair to me. > ... Regards, > Dawn > Dawn, could you post the spreadsheet or a screenshot of the timezones onto the meeting wiki, I think visually showing the timing differences and difficulties with planning would help. I think it would actually help with more meetings than just the TSG and allow the other WGs to actually plan meetings better too. BR Gar > > ___ > MeeGo-dev mailing list > MeeGo-dev@meego.com > http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev > http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines > ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
On Sunday, 3 de April de 2011 01:15:18 Jeremiah Foster wrote: > By what measure? Most of the people on the mailing lists are from > Europe and US. Are we talking corporate head counts or developer > participation? Are you on the same mailing lists as I am? There are many Chinese names posting on these mailing lists... -- Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org Senior Product Manager - Nokia, Qt Development Frameworks PGP/GPG: 0x6EF45358; fingerprint: E067 918B B660 DBD1 105C 966C 33F5 F005 6EF4 5358 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Foster, Dawn M wrote: > On Apr 2, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Jeremiah Foster wrote: > >> On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Foster, Dawn M >> wrote: >>> I wanted to let everyone know that we have a new time for our Technical >>> Steering Group meetings. While the 20:00 UTC meetings were convenient for >>> the Americas and Europe, it was very difficult for people in Asia to >>> participate. >> >> Can you explain the decision making process behind this decision? > > Here's the logic ... > > Needless to say, scheduling global meetings is challenging, Understood. > I sat down with a spreadsheet marked with times for US west coast, > western Europe and eastern Asia, which seems to be where most > of the people working on MeeGo are located, By what measure? Most of the people on the mailing lists are from Europe and US. Are we talking corporate head counts or developer participation? > Clearly, our previous TSG meeting time, 20:00 UTC, Noon Pacific > and 2:00 / 3:00 am in eastern Asia was making it nearly impossible > for people from Asia to attend, and the TSG had been receiving > requests to move the meeting to a time that was more Asia-friendly. But wouldn't these requests show up on the mailing list? I went through the MeeGo community list and I saw very few participants from Asia at all. And for 2011 I saw not one single request to change the time of the TSG meeting. If the TSG is receiving these requests, from whom are they coming and how? > I see this not as something that gets decided once and never > changed. I expect these meetings to move around in time to > share the burden of early / late meetings and to adapt to locations > where we have people working on MeeGo. I totally agree. But there has to be consultation with those who will actually attend the meetings. >> Naturally MeeGo needs to have times that are friendly to all regions >> but this decision seems to have been made without any consultation >> whatsoever with MeeGo developers. >> > > In all fairness, I did post this new time to the mailing lists almost 2 > weeks in advance of the first meeting to give people time to ask > questions or voice objections. If you have a better time that works > for more people than the current time, I encourage you to propose it. I propose we leave the time as it is until there is more open discussion about when these meetings should occur. I don't see a consensus forming around the time yet. Do those who plan to attend the TSG have opinions on when the meeting should be held? Regards, Jeremiah ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
On Apr 2, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Jeremiah Foster wrote: > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Foster, Dawn M > wrote: >> I wanted to let everyone know that we have a new time for our Technical >> Steering Group meetings. While the 20:00 UTC meetings were convenient for >> the Americas and Europe, it was very difficult for people in Asia to >> participate. > > Can you explain the decision making process behind this decision? Here's the logic ... Needless to say, scheduling global meetings is challenging, and the time will be inconvenient for some set of people in order to be able able to include a majority of time zones. Clearly, our previous TSG meeting time, 20:00 UTC, Noon Pacific and 2:00 / 3:00 am in eastern Asia was making it nearly impossible for people from Asia to attend, and the TSG had been receiving requests to move the meeting to a time that was more Asia-friendly. I sat down with a spreadsheet marked with times for US west coast, western Europe and eastern Asia, which seems to be where most of the people working on MeeGo are located, so I tried to optimize for these 3 locations. I put standard working hours in green, yellow for times 2 hours outside of working times and red for everything else. Since we've (U.S. west coast) had the meeting in the middle of our workday up to now, we thought it was only fair to give us the red time (now 11PM), western Europe was yellow / green (6am / 8am for most people) and green for Asia (2pm / 3pm for most). The other time we considered, based on the red / yellow / green chart, was 6am pacific, 2pm / 4pm western Europe and 9pm / 10pm in eastern Asia. In this scenario, Asia would again get the most inconvenient time, which did not seem fair to me. I see this not as something that gets decided once and never changed. I expect these meetings to move around in time to share the burden of early / late meetings and to adapt to locations where we have people working on MeeGo. > > Naturally MeeGo needs to have times that are friendly to all regions > but this decision seems to have been made without any consultation > whatsoever with MeeGo developers. > In all fairness, I did post this new time to the mailing lists almost 2 weeks in advance of the first meeting to give people time to ask questions or voice objections. If you have a better time that works for more people than the current time, I encourage you to propose it. Regards, Dawn ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Foster, Dawn M wrote: > I wanted to let everyone know that we have a new time for our Technical > Steering Group meetings. While the 20:00 UTC meetings were convenient for the > Americas and Europe, it was very difficult for people in Asia to participate. Can you explain the decision making process behind this decision? Naturally MeeGo needs to have times that are friendly to all regions but this decision seems to have been made without any consultation whatsoever with MeeGo developers. Regards, Jeremiah ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
[MeeGo-dev] Technical Steering Group Meeting: New Day / Time
I wanted to let everyone know that we have a new time for our Technical Steering Group meetings. While the 20:00 UTC meetings were convenient for the Americas and Europe, it was very difficult for people in Asia to participate. The new TSG meetings will be on Thursdays at 06:00 UTC (Wednesday at 11PM Pacific), which puts the meetings in the early morning for Europe, late evening for the US and the middle of the day for Asia. The first meeting will be on April 14 at 06:00 UTC (April 13 11PM Pacific). You can view the meeting in your time zone here: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=4&day=13&year=2011&hour=23&min=0&sec=0&p1=202 More TSG meeting details can be found here: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings Regards, Dawn ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
