Re: [MBZ] Beltless
Making an assumption that a serpentine belt would be used on a old engine to drive all those accessories except the oil pump. New engine uses one belt to drive the alternator, so the number of belts has not changed. Max Dillon Charleston SC '95 E300 '87 300TD '73 Balboa 20 relng...@aol.com wrote: ...So, let me get this straight. One belt drives the alternator. That alternator provides the electricity to run the electric motors, which turn the oil pump, water pump, compressor and power steering pump. And this saves horse power, converting torque into electricity and then back into torque again? The number of belts has stayed the same, the number of electric motors has increased by four, so I don't think any weight has been saved... How do you figure the belt count is the same? The pumps are driven by electric motors. When I referred to pumps, that's plural. There is more than one oil pump and I don't know how many water pumps there may be because the technical descriptions of the engine are not detailed enough, yet. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
With the exception of seat belts and the belts in the radial tires, my Chevy Volt engine and motor are beltless. John On Dec 6, 2012 7:50 PM, Max Dillon meadedil...@bellsouth.net wrote: Making an assumption that a serpentine belt would be used on a old engine to drive all those accessories except the oil pump. New engine uses one belt to drive the alternator, so the number of belts has not changed. Max Dillon Charleston SC '95 E300 '87 300TD '73 Balboa 20 relng...@aol.com wrote: ...So, let me get this straight. One belt drives the alternator. That alternator provides the electricity to run the electric motors, which turn the oil pump, water pump, compressor and power steering pump. And this saves horse power, converting torque into electricity and then back into torque again? The number of belts has stayed the same, the number of electric motors has increased by four, so I don't think any weight has been saved... How do you figure the belt count is the same? The pumps are driven by electric motors. When I referred to pumps, that's plural. There is more than one oil pump and I don't know how many water pumps there may be because the technical descriptions of the engine are not detailed enough, yet. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
Max Dillon wrote: So, let me get this straight. One belt drives the alternator. That alternator provides the electricity to run the electric motors, which turn the oil pump, water pump, compressor and power steering pump. And this saves horse power, converting torque into electricity and then back into torque again? The number of belts has stayed the same, the number of electric motors has increased by four, so I don't think any weight has been saved. I can see how selectively and temporarily removing loads when maximum acceleration is called for can make more power available to turn the driving wheels, but I don't see how this increases fuel economy. 1. Let us assume that the engineers want at least 50psi oil pressure at cruising speed, and that takes about 1/2 gpm. Let us also assume that a mechanical drive oil pump puts out 1.5gpm at that engine speed, and the pressure relief valve is set for 90psi. So the mechanical pump has to pump 1.5gpm at 90psi, while the electric one pumps .5gpm at 50psi. There's room for a large percentage savings in pump power. 2. A mechanical drive water pump has to pump enough water to cool under maximum cooling needs at all times, the thermostat controls how much actually goes through the engine. With our electric PWM drive water pump, we get rid of the thermostat and pump just enough water to cool the engine. I bet the savings are over 90% in the winter, and substantial in the summer except when you're climbing a hill with the A/C on or towing a heavy load. 3. A/C: by far the most efficient home A/C units are the 'inverter drive' compressors, they lose 5-10% converting AC line current to DC, then drive a DC compressor motor with PWM to run the compressor at exactly the needed speed to keep the house at the desired temperature. I'd expect it to save power in a car, too. 4. Power steering is the first thing that got converted to electric with the introduction of GM's Ecotec engines. GM claimed something like 1/2 mpg from getting rid of the engine driven hydraulic pump. Driving in a straight line, the power requirement for electric power steering is zero, and we spend most of our time going straight. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
Mitch and Jim, thanks for trying to educate me. Max Dillon Charleston SC '95 E300 '87 300TD '73 Balboa 20 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
...So, let me get this straight. One belt drives the alternator. That alternator provides the electricity to run the electric motors, which turn the oil pump, water pump, compressor and power steering pump. And this saves horse power, converting torque into electricity and then back into torque again? The number of belts has stayed the same, the number of electric motors has increased by four, so I don't think any weight has been saved... How do you figure the belt count is the same? The pumps are driven by electric motors. When I referred to pumps, that's plural. There is more than one oil pump and I don't know how many water pumps there may be because the technical descriptions of the engine are not detailed enough, yet. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] beltless
...Obviously because the _average_ load is much lower than the peak supply that the mechanical-only is capable of supplying. Enough so that it more than pays for the efficiency losses due to the double conversionThink of the oil pressure relief valves, for example. My guess is the real savings are on water pump and cooling fan... The electric cooling fans are up front with the radiators and oil cooler. ...But we still have cost, space, weight, and reliability issue to deal with... You are seriously underestimating Porsche's Engineering Department. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] beltless
1. Let us assume that the engineers want at least 50psi oil pressure at cruising speed, and that takes about 1/2 gpm. Let us also assume that a mechanical drive oil pump puts out 1.5gpm at that engine speed, and the pressure relief valve is set for 90psi. So the mechanical pump has to pump 1.5gpm at 90psi, while the electric one pumps .5gpm at 50psi. There's room for a large percentage savings in pump power... Let us just throw all that out for this engine. All of it. I recently read a too-short article (don't recall where for the moment) superficially explaining how these electric oil pumps operate in this application. After considerable testing and development, it has been 2. A mechanical drive water pump has to pump enough water to cool under maximum cooling needs at all times, the thermostat controls how much actually goes through the engine. With our electric PWM drive water pump, we get rid of the thermostat and pump just enough water to cool the engine. I bet the savings are over 90% in the winter, and substantial in the summer except when you're climbing a hill with the A/C on or towing a heavy load. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] Beltless, the rest of it
1. Let us assume that the engineers want at least 50psi oil pressure at cruising speed, and that takes about 1/2 gpm. Let us also assume that a mechanical drive oil pump puts out 1.5gpm at that engine speed, and the pressure relief valve is set for 90psi. So the mechanical pump has to pump 1.5gpm at 90psi, while the electric one pumps .5gpm at 50psi. There's room for a large percentage savings in pump power... Let us just throw all that out for this engine. All of it. I recently read a too-short article (don't recall where for the moment) superficially explaining how these electric oil pumps operate in this application. After considerable testing and development, it has been discovered that the oil pressure and flow requirements for these engines (and others, presumably) varies considerably during various operational phases. So, you don't need 50psi all the time except when the engine is really working and most of the time it's less, sometimes a lot less, just maintaining the oil cushion in the bearings. Depending, I suppose on engine temp, manifold pressure, throttle position etc. all sending signals to the ECU which then varies the oil pressure by some quick change method. This was found to save power which eventually translates into economy. Since this is a dry-sump engine, the separate larger scavenge pumps operate at higher speeds because they pump mostly foam back into the tank. 2. A mechanical drive water pump has to pump enough water to cool under maximum cooling needs at all times, the thermostat controls how much actually goes through the engine. With our electric PWM drive water pump, we get rid of the thermostat and pump just enough water to cool the engine. I bet the savings are over 90% in the winter, and substantial in the summer except when you're climbing a hill with the A/C on or towing a heavy load... The thermostats are now electronically variable (my C300 is this way) and the electric water pumps (back to the Porsche) move just enough water to maintain temps, working with the variable speed electric cooling fans. My C300 has one big variable speed electric fan behind the radiator and nothing else. No aux fans any more. The C-300's swash plate AC compressor (still belt driven but no clutch) pumps enough R-134 to cool the cabin and no more. This is all progress and seems to be reliable. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
Other than aircraft and stationary engines I can't think of any. Interesting question. Mike On Dec 3, 2012 7:57 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote: ..Hmm. There are of course plenty of cars out there with chain-driven cams, and a few with gear-driven ones... but was an engine ever made with no belts at all? I.e., all accessories chain- or gear- driven? (Not counting motorcycle engines since they don't have any accessories to speak of.).. There are a few new cars with no belts. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
I have seen fat guys with suspenders only because a belt slides down and does no good. Although interestingly that is called Dunlop's disease, cause their bellies dunlopped over their belts. Even a Dunlop belt would probably not work! Or maybe it would... --R On 12/4/12 10:08 AM, Michael Canfield wrote: Other than aircraft and stationary engines I can't think of any. Interesting question. Mike On Dec 3, 2012 7:57 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote: ..Hmm. There are of course plenty of cars out there with chain-driven cams, and a few with gear-driven ones... but was an engine ever made with no belts at all? I.e., all accessories chain- or gear- driven? (Not counting motorcycle engines since they don't have any accessories to speak of.).. There are a few new cars with no belts. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
...Other than aircraft and stationary engines I can't think of any. Interesting question... It's the coming thing and whether it's going to be limited to high end cars is the question. The new Porsche direct injection 3.8 L 400 hp water cooled flat six in the 991 has only one belt which drives the alternator. The variable flow oil pumps (pressure and scavenge), variable flow water pumps and thermostats, power steering pump, and AC compressor (swash plate type) are all electric. Saves the hp to drive them thus improving fuel economy. Which trumps costs, apparently. MB's new 5.5 550hp Twin-Turbo V-8 uses the same technology and I would bet Audi has jumped on the same bandwagon. With that kind of power you can zip over to Costco in no time flat. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
On Dec 4, 2012 10:07 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote: ...Other than aircraft and stationary engines I can't think of any. Interesting question... It's the coming thing and whether it's going to be limited to high end cars is the question. Isn't the Prius beltless? I think the alternator is integrated with the starter and everything else is electric. (I think...) Maybe there's a belt in the CVT. Tom ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
So, let me get this straight. One belt drives the alternator. That alternator provides the electricity to run the electric motors, which turn the oil pump, water pump, compressor and power steering pump. And this saves horse power, converting torque into electricity and then back into torque again? The number of belts has stayed the same, the number of electric motors has increased by four, so I don't think any weight has been saved. I can see how selectively and temporarily removing loads when maximum acceleration is called for can make more power available to turn the driving wheels, but I don't see how this increases fuel economy. Max Dillon Charleston SC '95 E300 '87 300TD '73 Balboa 20 relng...@aol.com wrote: ...Other than aircraft and stationary engines I can't think of any. Interesting question... It's the coming thing and whether it's going to be limited to high end cars is the question. The new Porsche direct injection 3.8 L 400 hp water cooled flat six in the 991 has only one belt which drives the alternator. The variable flow oil pumps (pressure and scavenge), variable flow water pumps and thermostats, power steering pump, and AC compressor (swash plate type) are all electric. Saves the hp to drive them thus improving fuel economy. Which trumps costs, apparently. MB's new 5.5 550hp Twin-Turbo V-8 uses the same technology and I would bet Audi has jumped on the same bandwagon. With that kind of power you can zip over to Costco in no time flat. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
..Hmm. There are of course plenty of cars out there with chain-driven cams, and a few with gear-driven ones... but was an engine ever made with no belts at all? I.e., all accessories chain- or gear- driven? (Not counting motorcycle engines since they don't have any accessories to speak of.).. There are a few new cars with no belts. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
Such as? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 3, 2012, at 6:57 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote: ..Hmm. There are of course plenty of cars out there with chain-driven cams, and a few with gear-driven ones... but was an engine ever made with no belts at all? I.e., all accessories chain- or gear- driven? (Not counting motorcycle engines since they don't have any accessories to speak of.).. There are a few new cars with no belts. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Beltless
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/0810dp_2008_volkswagen_touareg_v10_tdi/viewall.html VW diesel V10 Touareg. Uses gears. Might be a belt inside the thing somewhere, but no external belts. -Dave Walton On Monday, December 3, 2012, wrote: ..Hmm. There are of course plenty of cars out there with chain-driven cams, and a few with gear-driven ones... but was an engine ever made with no belts at all? I.e., all accessories chain- or gear- driven? (Not counting motorcycle engines since they don't have any accessories to speak of.).. There are a few new cars with no belts. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
