Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

I can get the cooling fan and shroud out in about five minutes now.  I've got 
the MB special socket for the fan clutch center bolt, fits on a 3/8 ratchet.  
The special tool for holding the pulley is not required if one removes that 
center bolt occasionally to keep it limber.  There are 5mm holes on the back 
side of the water pump hub and a nice ridge on the top of the water pump body 
that will act as a stop; stick a 5mm hex key in the hole, center bolt comes 
loose easy-peasy, pull out the fan and then the shroud.  Now you have clear 
access to the 27mm bolt in the crank hub to work the engine over and also room 
to loosen the IP mounts if needed.  No need to remove the radiator.

The key is getting that fan clutch center bolt loose the first time.  I have a 
strap wrench the worked fine, didn't have to get too expensive or crazy.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Craig, your question highlights another uncertainty in my method. I haven't 
found anywhere in the MB literature that there is a specification for the OM603 
for the start-of-delivery method. I'm making an assumption that the same spec 
from the OM617 is applicable
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On September 20, 2015 5:39:40 PM EDT, Max Dillon  wrote:
>Nothing about drip timing.  Manual says to either use the A-B light to
>static tune, or there is a dynamic tune tool that uses the same port on
>the IP as the A-B light and I think also a pick-up sensor for input
>from the pin on the harmonic balancer disk.
>
>Last of the OM617 engines had the same port on the IP, and offered both
>drip timing or use of the aforementioned special tools.
>-- 
>Max Dillon
>Charleston SC
>'87 300TD
>'95 E300
>
>On September 20, 2015 10:21:30 AM EDT, Craig via Mercedes
> wrote:
>>What does the shop manual say to do?
>>
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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Thanks Scott, I think in my next attempt (if there is one) I'll try using
diesel instead of air.  I need to figure out a cheap way to provide low
pressure fuel into the injection pump.

Just changed the oil in the White Whale, took just over an hour from "open
garage door" to cleaned up, old oil poured into empty jugs, tools put away
and entry made in car's maintenance log.

I started the car up to check for oil leaks, and wow! She starts so much
better now after the work yesterday.  I don't know if I've got the IP
timing as good as it can get, but it sure is much better than it was.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> The bubble method works exactly the same way (as drip) except air (being
> much less viscous than DF2) can leak past the plunger if the pressure is
> too
> high making it hard to see when the plunger closes off the fill hole in the
> cylinder.
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

My approach may have been flawed, I was using my air compressor with the 
regulator turned down really low, maybe I should have used lung power?

Maybe air is the wrong working medium, and one should use diesel fuel instead?
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On September 20, 2015 9:15:33 AM EDT, "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes" 
 wrote:
>For some reason I am thinking the bubble method does not work on the
>603.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Sep 19, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes
> wrote:
>> 
>> Hmm, bubble method didn't work so well. The stream of bubbles never
>came to a complete stop, but there was a distinct reduction.  Initially
>that drop-off was at about 19° BTDC.  Ah hah!  The IP timing was too
>retarded, if the start of delivery is supposed to be 24° BTDC for an
>OM603, same as the OM617.
>> 
>> I checked with the locking tool method to validate, and found that to
>be over 16° ATDC.  FSM says it should be 15° ATDC, +/- 1°.  
>> 
>> I didn't want to set the timing using the bubble method due to the
>lack of a clear cut-off in the bubble stream and the disparity versus
>the locking tool method, so I set the IP to ~21° BTDC (start of
>delivery) by bubble method, which was about 13.5° ATDC by locking tool.
>> 
>> Rebuilt all the delivery valves, Lubro Moly Diesel Purge treatment,
>put it all together and clean up, then test.
>> 
>> 0-60 time improved from 13s to 12.25s, and less smoke.
>> -- 
>> Max Dillon
>> Charleston SC
>> '87 300TD
>> '95 E300
>> ___
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>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>> 
>
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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

That's right the drip/bubble method only works on 617 and older because you 
have to have the hand pump. For 60x you need the 2 light tester deal which is 
what I use.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 20, 2015, at 10:31 AM, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The drip method is described in the OM621 manual, and I think it may be in 
> the 616/617 manuals.  I used the primer pump to provide pressure.  It is done 
> with Diesel fuel.  I have never used air for timing the Ip.  On the OM603, I 
> have only used the static timing lock.
> 
> The theory of the drip method is that when the plunger is not in delivery 
> mode, the fuel flows freely out the drip tube. At the start of delivery, the 
> plunger blocks the chamber and the free flow stops. At that point, you read 
> the position on the crank pointer.
> 
> I developed my own method for timing om621/616/617.  It does NOT involve 
> removing the pin on the DV.  I take a straw and blow the fuel out of the 
> flared part of the connector on the IP (DV holder) for the #1 cyl.  turn the 
> engine very slowly when you are coming up to the timing mark.   When the fuel 
> just begins to rise, the delivery is starting.  I set the time 1 to 2 degrees 
> in advance of the book spec to allow for the fact that delivery actually 
> started, and that the DV spring had to be overcome.  It has always worked on 
> the cast iron head engines.
> 
> I don't like disturbing the DV just to do timing.  It increases the 
> possibility of introducing contaminants (grit etc) into the IP. Plus I never 
> had extra seals and orings around to reseal the DV.
> 
> 
>> My approach may have been flawed, I was using my air compressor with the 
>> regulator turned down really low, maybe I should have used lung power?
>> 
>> Maybe air is the wrong working medium, and one should use diesel fuel 
>> instead?
>> --
>> Max Dillon
>> Charleston SC
>> '87 300TD
>> '95 E300
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 09:47:35 -0400 Max Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> My approach may have been flawed, I was using my air compressor with
> the regulator turned down really low, maybe I should have used lung
> power?
> 
> Maybe air is the wrong working medium, and one should use diesel fuel
> instead?

What does the shop manual say to do?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

Yes.  The OM621 shows a suspended reservoir that is hooked up to the 
fuel supply side of the IP.


I don't know why they dropped the drip tube method for the OM60x. 
Seems like it should work.  Biggest problem is there is no good way 
to turn the crank without taking out the radiator & etc.


Curly, I had to read that a couple times before I understood how it 
would work.  I think I've got it; while the IP plunger is rising but 
the chamber opening is still exposed, delivery hasn't started and 
the fuel flows out instead of up.  Once the chamber opening is 
covered, further movement of the plunger pushes the fuel up into the 
dv. 

As I see it, the trick for using a start-of-delivery method is 
"pressurizing" the IP circuit without a priming pump.  A gravity-fed 
reservoir would do it.

--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On September 20, 2015 11:31:24 AM EDT, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
 wrote:

I developed my own method for timing om621/616/617.  It does NOT
involve removing the pin on the DV.  I take a straw and blow the fuel
out of the flared part of the connector on the IP (DV holder) for the
#1 cyl.  turn the engine very slowly when you are coming up to the
timing mark.   When the fuel just begins to rise, the delivery is
starting.  I set the time 1 to 2 degrees in advance of the book spec
to allow for the fact that delivery actually started, and that the DV
spring had to be overcome.  It has always worked on the cast iron
head engines.

I don't like disturbing the DV just to do timing.  It increases the
possibility of introducing contaminants (grit etc) into the IP.
Plus I never had extra seals and orings around to reseal the DV.




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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Nothing about drip timing.  Manual says to either use the A-B light to static 
tune, or there is a dynamic tune tool that uses the same port on the IP as the 
A-B light and I think also a pick-up sensor for input from the pin on the 
harmonic balancer disk.

Last of the OM617 engines had the same port on the IP, and offered both drip 
timing or use of the aforementioned special tools.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On September 20, 2015 10:21:30 AM EDT, Craig via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>What does the shop manual say to do?
>


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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Bubble method uses air, not fuel, and priming pump is not used.  I think maybe 
my IP is worn and allows air to pass regardless of plunger position?  I wonder 
if a priming pump could be retrofitted?

Car started more easily this a.m., far less smoke.  I'm eager to see if fuel 
consumption has decreased.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On September 20, 2015 11:45:18 AM EDT, "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes" 
 wrote:
>That's right the drip/bubble method only works on 617 and older because
>you have to have the hand pump. For 60x you need the 2 light tester
>deal which is what I use.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>


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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Curly, I had to read that a couple times before I understood how it would work. 
 I think I've got it; while the IP plunger is rising but the chamber opening is 
still exposed, delivery hasn't started and the fuel flows out instead of up.  
Once the chamber opening is covered, further movement of the plunger pushes the 
fuel up into the dv.  

As I see it, the trick for using a start-of-delivery method is "pressurizing" 
the IP circuit without a priming pump.  A gravity-fed reservoir would do it.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On September 20, 2015 11:31:24 AM EDT, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>I developed my own method for timing om621/616/617.  It does NOT 
>involve removing the pin on the DV.  I take a straw and blow the fuel 
>out of the flared part of the connector on the IP (DV holder) for the 
>#1 cyl.  turn the engine very slowly when you are coming up to the 
>timing mark.   When the fuel just begins to rise, the delivery is 
>starting.  I set the time 1 to 2 degrees in advance of the book spec 
>to allow for the fact that delivery actually started, and that the DV 
>spring had to be overcome.  It has always worked on the cast iron 
>head engines.
>
>I don't like disturbing the DV just to do timing.  It increases the 
>possibility of introducing contaminants (grit etc) into the IP. 
>Plus I never had extra seals and orings around to reseal the DV.
>
>

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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

The bubble method works exactly the same way (as drip) except air (being
much less viscous than DF2) can leak past the plunger if the pressure is too
high making it hard to see when the plunger closes off the fill hole in the
cylinder.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> Max Dillon via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 5:50 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: Max Dillon <dillonm...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
> 
> Curly, I had to read that a couple times before I understood how it would
> work.  I think I've got it; while the IP plunger is rising but the chamber
opening
> is still exposed, delivery hasn't started and the fuel flows out instead
of up.
> Once the chamber opening is covered, further movement of the plunger
> pushes the fuel up into the dv.
> 
> As I see it, the trick for using a start-of-delivery method is
"pressurizing" the IP
> circuit without a priming pump.  A gravity-fed reservoir would do it.
> --
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> '87 300TD
> '95 E300
> 
> On September 20, 2015 11:31:24 AM EDT, Curly McLain via Mercedes
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >I developed my own method for timing om621/616/617.  It does NOT
> >involve removing the pin on the DV.  I take a straw and blow the fuel
> >out of the flared part of the connector on the IP (DV holder) for the
> >#1 cyl.  turn the engine very slowly when you are coming up to the
> >timing mark.   When the fuel just begins to rise, the delivery is
> >starting.  I set the time 1 to 2 degrees in advance of the book spec to
> >allow for the fact that delivery actually started, and that the DV
> >spring had to be overcome.  It has always worked on the cast iron head
> >engines.
> >
> >I don't like disturbing the DV just to do timing.  It increases the
> >possibility of introducing contaminants (grit etc) into the IP.
> >Plus I never had extra seals and orings around to reseal the DV.
> >
> >
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Hmm, bubble method didn't work so well. The stream of bubbles never came to a 
complete stop, but there was a distinct reduction.  Initially that drop-off was 
at about 19° BTDC.  Ah hah!  The IP timing was too retarded, if the start of 
delivery is supposed to be 24° BTDC for an OM603, same as the OM617.

I checked with the locking tool method to validate, and found that to be over 
16° ATDC.  FSM says it should be 15° ATDC, +/- 1°.  

I didn't want to set the timing using the bubble method due to the lack of a 
clear cut-off in the bubble stream and the disparity versus the locking tool 
method, so I set the IP to ~21° BTDC (start of delivery) by bubble method, 
which was about 13.5° ATDC by locking tool.

Rebuilt all the delivery valves, Lubro Moly Diesel Purge treatment, put it all 
together and clean up, then test.

0-60 time improved from 13s to 12.25s, and less smoke.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[WILTON via Mercedes]

ATTABOY!

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Max Dillon via Mercedes" <mercedes@okiebenz.com>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Cc: "Max Dillon" <dillonm...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today


Hmm, bubble method didn't work so well. The stream of bubbles never came 
to a complete stop, but there was a distinct reduction.  Initially that 
drop-off was at about 19° BTDC.  Ah hah!  The IP timing was too retarded, 
if the start of delivery is supposed to be 24° BTDC for an OM603, same as 
the OM617.


I checked with the locking tool method to validate, and found that to be 
over 16° ATDC.  FSM says it should be 15° ATDC, +/- 1°.


I didn't want to set the timing using the bubble method due to the lack of 
a clear cut-off in the bubble stream and the disparity versus the locking 
tool method, so I set the IP to ~21° BTDC (start of delivery) by bubble 
method, which was about 13.5° ATDC by locking tool.


Rebuilt all the delivery valves, Lubro Moly Diesel Purge treatment, put it 
all together and clean up, then test.


0-60 time improved from 13s to 12.25s, and less smoke.
--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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[MBZ] Max's work list today

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

White Whale ('87 300TD):
She has been running a little smoky and returning fewer miles per gallon, and 
I've been messing with the injection pump, so today I'm going to:
Set the IP timing using the bubble method to 25° BTDC; overhaul all the 
delivery valves with new copper washers, new springs and O-rings; and maybe a 
diesel purge treatment if the first two don't deliver the results I'm looking 
for.  I've also got an oil change due, so that will be last.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

White Whale ('87 300TD):
She has been running a little smoky and 
returning fewer miles per gallon, and I've been 
messing with the injection pump, so today I'm 
going to:
Set the IP timing using the bubble method to 25° 
BTDC; overhaul all the delivery valves with new 
copper washers, new springs and O-rings; and 
maybe a diesel purge treatment if the first two 
don't deliver the results I'm looking for.  I've 
also got an oil change due, so that will be last.

--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300



Does it have the vacuum line unplugged or blocked 
with a BB at the EGR dashpot at the front of the 
exhaust manifold.   If not, unplug the vacuum 
line and plug the vacuum.


The egr hangs open and causes the symptoms you 
describe.  If it is stuck open, I am not sure 
what options you have other than to buy a new EGR 
valve for probably hundreds of $, or to remove 
and block the openings.


There was someone who sold a kit on this list 
maybe 10 years ago to remove and plug the EGR. 
That cleans up the engine bay considerably.  I 
think I bought 3 kits at the time.


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Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Curly,

EGR has been blocked off, vacuum line plugged, for years.

I think the IP is the issue, it is a "new" used IP, long story, I need to dial 
it in.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On September 19, 2015 10:39:07 AM EDT, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>>White Whale ('87 300TD):
>>She has been running a little smoky and 
>>returning fewer miles per gallon, and I've been 
>>messing with the injection pump, so today I'm 
>>going to:
>>Set the IP timing using the bubble method to 25° 
>>BTDC; overhaul all the delivery valves with new 
>>copper washers, new springs and O-rings; and 
>>maybe a diesel purge treatment if the first two 
>>don't deliver the results I'm looking for.  I've 
>>also got an oil change due, so that will be last.
>>--
>>Max Dillon
>>Charleston SC
>>'87 300TD
>>'95 E300
>
>
>Does it have the vacuum line unplugged or blocked 
>with a BB at the EGR dashpot at the front of the 
>exhaust manifold.   If not, unplug the vacuum 
>line and plug the vacuum.
>
>The egr hangs open and causes the symptoms you 
>describe.  If it is stuck open, I am not sure 
>what options you have other than to buy a new EGR 
>valve for probably hundreds of $, or to remove 
>and block the openings.
>
>There was someone who sold a kit on this list 
>maybe 10 years ago to remove and plug the EGR. 
>That cleans up the engine bay considerably.  I 
>think I bought 3 kits at the time.
>
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