Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Ammonia is another good refrigerant. Not so good when it leaks in enclosed spaces, but otherwise pretty benign from an envrionmental standpoint. Robert Rentfro [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It was reported by those Porsche guys: The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, Firstly...I was unaware there was a rating GWP. That's so green...so Gorey. Secondly...CO2 based...wow such an exotic gas. Can't believe anyone didn't figure this out sooner. Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. Bob R. -- 1983 300D 1966 230 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Would be nasty in a car. An accident hard enogh to rupture the system would make the entire accident scene unapproachable to emergancy services. Pete -- Original message -- From: Allan Streib [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ammonia is another good refrigerant. Not so good when it leaks in enclosed spaces, but otherwise pretty benign from an envrionmental standpoint. Robert Rentfro writes: It was reported by those Porsche guys: The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, Firstly...I was unaware there was a rating GWP. That's so green...so Gorey. Secondly...CO2 based...wow such an exotic gas. Can't believe anyone didn't figure this out sooner. Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. Bob R. -- 1983 300D 1966 230 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
That's exactly what they said about gasoline ~100 years ago. -Dave Walton On Nov 19, 2007 9:34 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would be nasty in a car. An accident hard enogh to rupture the system would make the entire accident scene unapproachable to emergancy services. Pete -- Original message -- From: Allan Streib [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ammonia is another good refrigerant. Not so good when it leaks in enclosed spaces, but otherwise pretty benign from an envrionmental standpoint. Robert Rentfro writes: It was reported by those Porsche guys: The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, Firstly...I was unaware there was a rating GWP. That's so green...so Gorey. Secondly...CO2 based...wow such an exotic gas. Can't believe anyone didn't figure this out sooner. Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. Bob R. -- 1983 300D 1966 230 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would be nasty in a car. An accident hard enogh to rupture the system would make the entire accident scene unapproachable to emergancy services. Would there really be enough in a car-sized system to pose a big hazard? I read that it's 5 - 10 times more efficient than R-22, so I would not think you would need very much. But I speak from ignorance. There's probably a good reason that it is not used. Allan -- 1983 300D 1966 230 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
There's probably a good reason that it is not used. Well, it's extremely poisonous. As is sulphur dioxide and a number of other early refrigerants. There's a reason Freon dominated the market. Also, you have to use all-steel plumbing. Still, an ammonia system would be very unlikely to dump inside the passenger compartment, and minor (harmless) leaks are _very_ obvious to the nose. It could perhaps be practical, the crash scenario is the worst and it would dissipate pretty quickly. RV refrigerators are ammonia-based, for example. (The working fluid is a careful mixture of hydrogen, ammonia, and water. With an anti-corrosive additive, sodium chromate?) The high pressure of CO2 system may not be an efficiency problem, I guess we just have to get used to high and low side pressures 10x (or whatever) higher than we're used to. You can bet that the machinery will be much more expensive than before, and that leaks will be much more common. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There's probably a good reason that it is not used. Well, it's extremely poisonous. As is sulphur dioxide and a number of other early refrigerants. There's a reason Freon dominated the market. Also, you have to use all-steel plumbing. Still, an ammonia system would be very unlikely to dump inside the passenger compartment, and minor (harmless) leaks are _very_ obvious to the nose. You could isolate the ammonia loop to the exterior by having a heat exchanger at the evaporator, and circulate chilled water or something else harmeless through a core in the blower ductwork to cool the air. -- 1983 300D 1966 230 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Having been awakened from a dead-sleep due to an ammonia leak in a fishing boat I once worked on, I never want to re-live that startling-choking-aggravating experience. I'll stick with Gaz d' Cathey refrigerant which has served me ever so well. Thank you, good sir. On Nov 19, 2007 7:09 AM, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's probably a good reason that it is not used. Well, it's extremely poisonous. As is sulphur dioxide and a number of other early refrigerants. There's a reason Freon dominated the market. Also, you have to use all-steel plumbing. Still, an ammonia system would be very unlikely to dump inside the passenger compartment, and minor (harmless) leaks are _very_ obvious to the nose. It could perhaps be practical, the crash scenario is the worst and it would dissipate pretty quickly. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
You've never worked around industrial ammonia!!! Pete -- Original message -- From: dave walton [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's exactly what they said about gasoline ~100 years ago. -Dave Walton On Nov 19, 2007 9:34 AM, wrote: Would be nasty in a car. An accident hard enogh to rupture the system would make the entire accident scene unapproachable to emergancy services. Pete -- Original message -- From: Allan Streib Ammonia is another good refrigerant. Not so good when it leaks in enclosed spaces, but otherwise pretty benign from an envrionmental standpoint. Robert Rentfro writes: It was reported by those Porsche guys: The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, Firstly...I was unaware there was a rating GWP. That's so green...so Gorey. Secondly...CO2 based...wow such an exotic gas. Can't believe anyone didn't figure this out sooner. Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. Bob R. -- 1983 300D 1966 230 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Having been awakened from a dead-sleep due to an ammonia leak in a fishing boat I once worked on, I never want to re-live that startling-choking-aggravating experience. My Father-in-Law is mostly blind in one eye due to an ammonia leak on the farm. A fitting let loose or something like that. (It's used as a fertilizer, for you non-farmers out there. They spray it on the bare dirt or something like that.) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Dangerous? How about the folks using PROPANE in their AC system? Won't that cause a nasty fire in the right crash? Angelo Giaimo/Fishkill/IBM @ IBMUS Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845)894-4296 (tie 533); fax: 892-6235 (tie 532); 2070 Rt. 52; Hopewell Junction, N.Y. 12533 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
ANGELO GIAIMO wrote: Dangerous? How about the folks using PROPANE in their AC system? Won't that cause a nasty fire in the right crash? I'm a lot more worried about 50 pounds of gasoline than I am about 10 ounces of propane. A puddle of liquid gasoline burns nicely. The propane must be at the proper mixture with air for combustion, and dissipates quickly if not immediately burned. Neither gasoline nor propane are intensely poisonous, but ammonia is. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
ANGELO GIAIMO wrote: Dangerous? How about the folks using PROPANE in their AC system? Won't that cause a nasty fire in the right crash? There really needs to be a Mythbusters episode on this the debate *never* ends. John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Propane is heavier than air (if I recall) so it tends to settle lower, and it will not burn except in a limited range of concentrations. The biggest problem is when it lets off in an enclosed space (like your grill with the lid down) then it BOOMS! Those diesel guys running around with propane injection tanks under the truck bed outside the frame rails seem much more of a problem, but even then it is probably less problematic than gasoline. I did some work back when on LNG facility risk analysis. That stuff is pretty hard to get going as it has to vaporize first (takes a lot of heat energy to get it into a vapor), then it has to reach a combustible concentration (takes a lot of air and mixing, and then it burns -- the flame front speed has a lot to do with it too, but I forget those details. It tends to flow out along the ground as a liquid then a very dense vapor, which is sucking out the heat and sorta vaporizing but it spreads faster than it can heat up and vaporize, up to a point. It will tend to settle in low areas, then it starts to mix and vaporize. If it does start to burn, the way the heat radiates does not lead to an explosion as the stuff still does not vaporize really rapidly, the fire uses up the air so it can't mix and get oxygen. All in all very interesting stuff that isn't that dangerous as long as there are dikes to contain it around tanks. Leaks from a ship are more of a problem as it spreads over the surface of the water and it is hard to contain. But the rate at which it can suck heat from the water slows its vaporization (frozen layer on the surface). It burns but does not explode as such unless contained and vaporized in the right concentration. the biggest problem we saw was if the stuff got into sewers and basements, and at some point got set off by pilot lights or electrical arcs. That is not very relevant unless we start using LNG in our cars, but there you go. --R Mitch Haley wrote: ANGELO GIAIMO wrote: Dangerous? How about the folks using PROPANE in their AC system? Won't that cause a nasty fire in the right crash? I'm a lot more worried about 50 pounds of gasoline than I am about 10 ounces of propane. A puddle of liquid gasoline burns nicely. The propane must be at the proper mixture with air for combustion, and dissipates quickly if not immediately burned. Neither gasoline nor propane are intensely poisonous, but ammonia is. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Absorption refrigeration using anhydrous ammonia and hydrogen always amazed me. It only requires a small heat source to provide energy instead of a compressor. There's also been success with thermoelectrics generating electricity with exhaust and eliminating the need for alternators. on 11/19/07 10:02 AM, Allan Streib at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would be nasty in a car. An accident hard enogh to rupture the system would make the entire accident scene unapproachable to emergancy services. Would there really be enough in a car-sized system to pose a big hazard? I read that it's 5 - 10 times more efficient than R-22, so I would not think you would need very much. But I speak from ignorance. There's probably a good reason that it is not used. Allan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Not likely - the CO2 would just dissippate into the air. Thanks, Tom 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: 11/19/07 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant Would be nasty in a car. An accident hard enogh to rupture the system would make the entire accident scene unapproachable to emergancy services. Pete -- Original message -- From: Allan Streib [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ammonia is another good refrigerant. Not so good when it leaks in enclosed spaces, but otherwise pretty benign from an envrionmental standpoint. Robert Rentfro writes: It was reported by those Porsche guys: The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, Firstly...I was unaware there was a rating GWP. That's so green...so Gorey. Secondly...CO2 based...wow such an exotic gas. Can't believe anyone didn't figure this out sooner. Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. Bob R. -- 1983 300D 1966 230 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Tom Hargrave wrote: Not likely - the CO2 would just dissippate into the air. This topic has wandered a bit. Pete was talking about refrigeration grade (weapons grade?) ammonia. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
LarryT wrote: And while trees also contribute to CO2 levels, perhaps we should make them do something different. Given the CO2 problems, I wonder why the UN is pushing a Billion Tree program? Would seem to be counterproductive. Trees remove CO2... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
I'm guessing the patent on 134 runs out about then. The deal about R-12 was that Dupont could no longer control the world supply, and therefore prices for R-12, so we had to figure out a way to get rid of it. Dupont owns the 134 patent. Here we go again. As said patent issues for R-12 and -134a are urban legends stuff. By the cynic wonders how someone might figure how to modify CO2 (or combo with something else) to make THAT patentable and then the lobbyists make sure that's the only permitted blend. Also: With all the trouble with using circulating 120 bar CO2 as a fluid why not just go and compress AIR, dump heat under expansion, and use THAT? I can't pretend to know anything about the efficiency, and moisture would likely be an issue. But it gets me thinking... Tony Wirtel ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Robert Rentfro wrote: Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. I don't think you will be able to convert an R134 system to this new refrigerant. I think it uses significantly higher operating pressures. Its been a while since I've read up on it, but I know there was some gotcha... John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Europe has been using pure CO2 as a refrigerant in some applications for a while now. The problem with pure CO2 is that liquid pressures can run much higher, up to 1800 PSI in some cases. Maybe someone has come up with a gas blend that runs at more reasonable pressure levels? Tom www.kegkits.com Original Message From: Robert Rentfro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11/16/07 08:18 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= It was reported by those Porsche guys: The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, Firstly...I was unaware there was a rating GWP. That's so green...so Gorey. Secondly...CO2 based...wow such an exotic gas. Can't believe anyone didn't figure this out sooner. Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. Bob R. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
It was reported by those Porsche guys: The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, Firstly...I was unaware there was a rating GWP. That's so green...so Gorey. Secondly...CO2 based...wow such an exotic gas. Can't believe anyone didn't figure this out sooner. Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. Bob R. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Very funny, OK Don Bob R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of OK Don Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:28 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant The new refrigerant is fortunately 25% more efficient the R134a. COOL !!! -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
No, I think it was just a couple of months ago, although we might have also had it last year. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730-Tulsa FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant We had this discussion last year On Nov 16, 2007 8:49 AM, John Robbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Loren Faeth wrote: I'm guessing the patent on 134 runs out about then. The deal about R-12 was that Dupont could no longer control the world supply, and therefore prices for R-12, so we had to figure out a way to get rid of it. Dupont owns the 134 patent. Here we go again. Nope. Patents for R12 ran out LONG before the 90's. http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.php John -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
No, they store it, termites and bacteria and humans release it when the trees die and rot or are burned. TANSTAAFL --R John Robbins wrote: LarryT wrote: And while trees also contribute to CO2 levels, perhaps we should make them do something different. Given the CO2 problems, I wonder why the UN is pushing a Billion Tree program? Would seem to be counterproductive. Trees remove CO2... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
The net effect overall is removal, but they do produce it depending where it is in the daily cycle - they give off CO2 at night. Technically, the scenic mist seen in the mountains early in the morning is smog. -Dave Walton On Nov 16, 2007 11:38 AM, John Robbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LarryT wrote: And while trees also contribute to CO2 levels, perhaps we should make them do something different. Given the CO2 problems, I wonder why the UN is pushing a Billion Tree program? Would seem to be counterproductive. Trees remove CO2... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Hmmm, since CO2 is so evil, I wonder how long before humans will be taxed for breathing and expelling CO2? Think of all the money to be turned over to the Govt. ;-)As everyone knows, the air we exhale is heavy in CO2 so perhaps we will be forced to find another means of moving O2 into our lungs? Course the taxation is preferable. And while trees also contribute to CO2 levels, perhaps we should make them do something different. Given the CO2 problems, I wonder why the UN is pushing a Billion Tree program? Would seem to be counterproductive. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs . - Original Message - From: Robert Rentfro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant It was reported by those Porsche guys: The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, Firstly...I was unaware there was a rating GWP. That's so green...so Gorey. Secondly...CO2 based...wow such an exotic gas. Can't believe anyone didn't figure this out sooner. Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. Bob R. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.34/1134 - Release Date: 11/16/2007 9:52 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
We had this discussion last year On Nov 16, 2007 8:49 AM, John Robbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Loren Faeth wrote: I'm guessing the patent on 134 runs out about then. The deal about R-12 was that Dupont could no longer control the world supply, and therefore prices for R-12, so we had to figure out a way to get rid of it. Dupont owns the 134 patent. Here we go again. Nope. Patents for R12 ran out LONG before the 90's. http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.php John -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Tony, Refrigeration systems take advantage of the tremendous amount of energy needed to convert a liquid into gas the tremendous amount of energy released when converting that gas back into a liquid. Air won't work because nitrogen, which is what air is mostly composed of, will not compress into a liquid until you reach pressues way in excess of reasonable. Tom www.kegkits.com Original Message From: Tony Wirtel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11/16/07 11:33 AM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= I'm guessing the patent on 134 runs out about then. The deal about R-12 was that Dupont could no longer control the world supply, and therefore prices for R-12, so we had to figure out a way to get rid of it. Dupont owns the 134 patent. Here we go again. As said patent issues for R-12 and -134a are urban legends stuff. By the cynic wonders how someone might figure how to modify CO2 (or combo with something else) to make THAT patentable and then the lobbyists make sure that's the only permitted blend. Also: With all the trouble with using circulating 120 bar CO2 as a fluid why not just go and compress AIR, dump heat under expansion, and use THAT? I can't pretend to know anything about the efficiency, and moisture would likely be an issue. But it gets me thinking... Tony Wirtel ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
dave walton wrote: Technically, the scenic mist seen in the mountains early in the morning is smog. Now thats a neat fact! :) John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
On Nov 16, 2007 6:39 AM, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Europe has been using pure CO2 as a refrigerant in some applications for a while now. The problem with pure CO2 is that liquid pressures can run much higher, up to 1800 PSI in some cases. Maybe when the CO2 system leaks out at 1800PSI it will help keep the fire under control from your leaking high-pressure direct-injection gas engine. Aren't the latter getting to be pretty common in Europe now too? Deathtrap if you ask me. Alex Chamberlain '87 300D Turbo et al. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
I'm guessing the patent on 134 runs out about then. The deal about R-12 was that Dupont could no longer control the world supply, and therefore prices for R-12, so we had to figure out a way to get rid of it. Dupont owns the 134 patent. Here we go again. At 07:47 AM 11/16/2007, you wrote: Geez, so I am going to have to invest in yet another round of refrigeration equipment? Hopefully its cheaper than 134 is now. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730-Tulsa FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant From the November Porsche Panorama: First Freon was the culprit in damage to the atmosphere and now it's replacement, R134a also has been found to be an environmental hazard and will be banned as of 2011 in the EU. The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, the lowest possible level, whereas R134a has a GWP of 1430. GWP is a new measure and stands for Global Warming Potential. No word on when the U.S. will follow suit on the ban but it is expected to be near simultaneous. The new refrigerant is fortunately 25% more efficient the R134a. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
John, in this case the voice of reason, reminded us: but I know there was some gotcha... I kinda figured if CO2 was being considered for use in auto HVAC they must have addressed the wicked high pressure dilemma. Maybe they haven't. And I'm totally sure there won't be any easy, inexpensive conversion kits developed. Bob R. Looking for the holy grail of HVAC...hoping to find it before March. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Yah, right. Dupont never had an exclusive market for either of these products. R12 was manufactured by several companies, not just DuPont. R134 is being manufactured by several companies, not just DuPont. Tom www.kegkits.com Original Message From: Loren Faeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11/16/07 08:24 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= I'm guessing the patent on 134 runs out about then. The deal about R-12 was that Dupont could no longer control the world supply, and therefore prices for R-12, so we had to figure out a way to get rid of it. Dupont owns the 134 patent. Here we go again. At 07:47 AM 11/16/2007, you wrote: Geez, so I am going to have to invest in yet another round of refrigeration equipment? Hopefully its cheaper than 134 is now. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730-Tulsa FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant From the November Porsche Panorama: First Freon was the culprit in damage to the atmosphere and now it's replacement, R134a also has been found to be an environmental hazard and will be banned as of 2011 in the EU. The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, the lowest possible level, whereas R134a has a GWP of 1430. GWP is a new measure and stands for Global Warming Potential. No word on when the U.S. will follow suit on the ban but it is expected to be near simultaneous. The new refrigerant is fortunately 25% more efficient the R134a. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
We should set up a new business selling R134a offsets. --R [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the November Porsche Panorama: First Freon was the culprit in damage to the atmosphere and now it's replacement, R134a also has been found to be an environmental hazard and will be banned as of 2011 in the EU. The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, the lowest possible level, whereas R134a has a GWP of 1430. GWP is a new measure and stands for Global Warming Potential. No word on when the U.S. will follow suit on the ban but it is expected to be near simultaneous. The new refrigerant is fortunately 25% more efficient the R134a. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Ronald Reagan got vilified for pointing out the fact that trees emit considerable precursors to photochemical smog, esp pine trees. Smoky Mountains are smoky because of tree emissions! Bad trees BAD! --R John Robbins wrote: dave walton wrote: Technically, the scenic mist seen in the mountains early in the morning is smog. Now thats a neat fact! :) John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Geez, so I am going to have to invest in yet another round of refrigeration equipment? Hopefully its cheaper than 134 is now. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730-Tulsa FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant From the November Porsche Panorama: First Freon was the culprit in damage to the atmosphere and now it's replacement, R134a also has been found to be an environmental hazard and will be banned as of 2011 in the EU. The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, the lowest possible level, whereas R134a has a GWP of 1430. GWP is a new measure and stands for Global Warming Potential. No word on when the U.S. will follow suit on the ban but it is expected to be near simultaneous. The new refrigerant is fortunately 25% more efficient the R134a. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Loren Faeth wrote: I'm guessing the patent on 134 runs out about then. The deal about R-12 was that Dupont could no longer control the world supply, and therefore prices for R-12, so we had to figure out a way to get rid of it. Dupont owns the 134 patent. Here we go again. Nope. Patents for R12 ran out LONG before the 90's. http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.php John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
Hi, Crazy as it sounds can we tax California for its wood burning co2 contributions with it forest fires being yearly events? Green state indeed?? Negligence is no excuse, tax Hollywood. Ed in Chicago LarryT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm, since CO2 is so evil, I wonder how long before humans will be taxed for breathing and expelling CO2? Think of all the money to be turned over to the Govt. ;-) As everyone knows, the air we exhale is heavy in CO2 so perhaps we will be forced to find another means of moving O2 into our lungs? Course the taxation is preferable. And while trees also contribute to CO2 levels, perhaps we should make them do something different. Given the CO2 problems, I wonder why the UN is pushing a Billion Tree program? Would seem to be counterproductive. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs . - Original Message - From: Robert Rentfro To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant It was reported by those Porsche guys: The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, Firstly...I was unaware there was a rating GWP. That's so green...so Gorey. Secondly...CO2 based...wow such an exotic gas. Can't believe anyone didn't figure this out sooner. Hope it turns out to be cheap, long lasting and leak free. Bob R. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.34/1134 - Release Date: 11/16/2007 9:52 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
The new refrigerant is fortunately 25% more efficient than R134a. COOL !!! Maybe. First tell me about the oil situation. Propane is 25% more efficient than R12, which is more efficient than R134a, and is mineral-oil compatible. (With a little help from isobutane.) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
From the November Porsche Panorama: First Freon was the culprit in damage to the atmosphere and now it's replacement, R134a also has been found to be an environmental hazard and will be banned as of 2011 in the EU. The new refrigerant, known as R744, is carbon dioxide (CO2) based. R744 has a GWP of 1, the lowest possible level, whereas R134a has a GWP of 1430. GWP is a new measure and stands for Global Warming Potential. No word on when the U.S. will follow suit on the ban but it is expected to be near simultaneous. The new refrigerant is fortunately 25% more efficient the R134a. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] New refrigerant
The new refrigerant is fortunately 25% more efficient the R134a. COOL !!! -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
