Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread fmiser via Mercedes 
I never saw the original "part 3" message, so I didn't see any
pictures.  

> Curt wrote:
> 
> As an experiment I stacked another heatsink on top of the first
> one: immediate jump which climbed to just under 1v before
> dropping back to .5 again.

Do you have an IR thermometer?  You can use that to monitor the
temperature of both the hot and the cold side.  And with some small
bits of aluminum flashing it's possible to monitor the air
temperature too.

> My current idea is to see if I can extend my heatsink up
> and away, once you get a few inches above the lantern the
> temperature drops quickly, if I can get up into that cool air...

It's not just a matter of getting into cool air.  The air touching
the heatsink will warm.  Then it will move up because it's warmer
than the air near it. (convection)

If you don't want to use a fan, try to figure a way to use
convection to draw cool air to the heatsink as the hot air rises.

> Another thought I had was to put the peltiers vertical which puts
> the heatsink out of the rising heat stream.

Eek!  Yes!

I haven't seen your heatsink, but what I would try using is a deep
finned model, fins vertical, maybe even a cap to make it "ducted".
Then control what air is allowed to be drawn into the bottom.
Also, the warm air exiting the top of the heatsink probably won't
be as warm as the air exiting the top of the lantern - which could
reduce (or halt) the convection of air at the heatsink.

Quoting what I wrote on Aug 8
  "Much of the heat from the mantles is radiant - and so follows
   line-of-sight.  Keep the heatsinks in the dark, with a cool air
   supply to replace the confection driven hot air that leaves the
   sink and it could work out well."

I would probably build a "wall" to keep the cold-side air away from
the lantern, with the peltier device in a "window".

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread fmiser via Mercedes 
> Curley wrote:
> 
> You started with the assumption that the hot side needs to be on
> the lid.  What happens if you throw that out and try to get the
> cold side in the coolest position and conduct the heat?
> 
> What happens when you put a heat conducter on the lid that hangs
> outside the lantern enough to put the cold side out in the air?
> Gold (Au) is the best conductor.  Followed by silver, copper,
> aluminum. 

Sorry to spoil your hording plans, but gold is worse than both
silver and copper.

A common way to measure thermal conductivity is W/m K  (watts per
metre per Kelvin).  Here are a few common metals.  Big numbers mean
better heat conduction.

W/m K  Name

  8Mercury
 35Lead
 40Carbon steel
 65Tin
 73Iron
111Brass
204Aluminum (pure) 
218Beryllium
315Gold
386Copper
407Silver

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-metals-d_858.html

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread Fred Moir via Mercedes 
Curt.

Fans are cool.

Thermocline?

Fred.


Fred Moir.
Lynn MA.
Diesel preferred.



From: Mercedes <mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com> on behalf of Curt Raymond via 
Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Sent: 09 September 2016 17:08
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Cc: Curt Raymond
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

They work on the same principle. I've considered something like it above my 
heat sinks but then I give up power to power the fan...
-Curt

  From: Fred Moir <fredh.s...@hotmail.com>
 To: Curt Raymond <curtlud...@yahoo.com>; Mercedes Discussion List 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 Sent: Friday, September 9, 2016 12:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

#yiv3263413483 #yiv3263413483 -- P 
{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv3263413483 Curt.These types of things are 
popular for a fan, adapt maybe?
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/ecofan-ultrair-heat-powered-stove-fan-1110367
-Curt
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
They work on the same principle. I've considered something like it above my 
heat sinks but then I give up power to power the fan...
-Curt

  From: Fred Moir <fredh.s...@hotmail.com>
 To: Curt Raymond <curtlud...@yahoo.com>; Mercedes Discussion List 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
 Sent: Friday, September 9, 2016 12:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3
   
#yiv3263413483 #yiv3263413483 -- P 
{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv3263413483 Curt.These types of things are 
popular for a fan, adapt maybe?
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/ecofan-ultrair-heat-powered-stove-fan-1110367


Fred Moir.Lynn MA.Diesel preferred.

From: Mercedes <mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com> on behalf of Curt Raymond via 
Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Sent: 09 September 2016 14:05
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Cc: Curt Raymond
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3 Another thought I had was to put 
the peltiers vertical which puts the heatsink out of the rising heat stream. 
I'm pretty sure thats whats killing it now, when I was testing model B any 
little breeze that blew would show a rise in power output. I was surprised how 
quickly the system would react...
-Curt



   
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread Fred Moir via Mercedes 
Curt.

These types of things are popular for a fan, adapt maybe?


http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/ecofan-ultrair-heat-powered-stove-fan-1110367



Fred Moir.
Lynn MA.
Diesel preferred.



From: Mercedes <mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com> on behalf of Curt Raymond via 
Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Sent: 09 September 2016 14:05
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Cc: Curt Raymond
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

Another thought I had was to put the peltiers vertical which puts the heatsink 
out of the rising heat stream. I'm pretty sure thats whats killing it now, when 
I was testing model B any little breeze that blew would show a rise in power 
output. I was surprised how quickly the system would react...
-Curt

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
The tanks get warm in use, 2 burner units like this one get less warm than the 
singles do.
I was thinking I could build a water reservoir on top, you could be heating 
water and making electricity and light all at the same time.
-Curt

  From: OK Don <okd...@gmail.com>
 To: Curt Raymond <curtlud...@yahoo.com>; Mercedes Discussion List 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
 Sent: Friday, September 9, 2016 11:09 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3
   
Doesn't the fuel need to be pre-heated to burn? Use it to cool the heat sink 
and pre-heat at the same time.
Yes, that will take more modification to the lantern . . .
Take this contraption to the Q and do a show & tell!

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

I am keeping up a temperature difference, just not a big enough one. ;)
My current idea is to see if I can extend my heatsink up and away, once you get 
a few inches above the lantern the temperature drops quickly, if I can get up 
into that cool air...
Anyway today is ChowdaQ prep day so its unlikely I'll have much time for 
experimenting.
-Curt





-- 
OK Don
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our 
people need it sorely on these accounts.” – Mark Twain"There are three kinds of 
men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The 
rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."WILL ROGERS, The 
Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers2013 F150, 18 mpg2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg1957 
C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!

   
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread OK Don via Mercedes 
Doesn't the fuel need to be pre-heated to burn? Use it to cool the heat
sink and pre-heat at the same time.
Yes, that will take more modification to the lantern . . .
Take this contraption to the Q and do a show & tell!

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I am keeping up a temperature difference, just not a big enough one. ;)
> My current idea is to see if I can extend my heatsink up and away, once
> you get a few inches above the lantern the temperature drops quickly, if I
> can get up into that cool air...
> Anyway today is ChowdaQ prep day so its unlikely I'll have much time for
> experimenting.
> -Curt
>
>
>

-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes 
You started with the assumption that the hot side needs to be on the 
lid.  What happens if you throw that out and try to get the cold side in 
the coolest position and conduct the heat?


What happens when you put a heat conducter on the lid that hangs outside 
the lantern enough to put the cold side out in the air?   Gold (Au) is 
the best conductor.  Followed by silver, copper, aluminum.   You could 
wrap an insulator around the conductor outside the lamp top.  If you can 
get the conductor below the light, and get the cold side in the 
conduction air stream caused by the heat of the burners, the thing 
should work better.


You could hoard gold and power your stuff at the same time!


Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
September 9, 2016 at 9:05 AM
Another thought I had was to put the peltiers vertical which puts the 
heatsink out of the rising heat stream. I'm pretty sure thats whats 
killing it now, when I was testing model B any little breeze that blew 
would show a rise in power output. I was surprised how quickly the 
system would react...

-Curt


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
Another thought I had was to put the peltiers vertical which puts the heatsink 
out of the rising heat stream. I'm pretty sure thats whats killing it now, when 
I was testing model B any little breeze that blew would show a rise in power 
output. I was surprised how quickly the system would react...
-Curt

  From: Jim Cathey via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Jim Cathey <jim.cathey...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Friday, September 9, 2016 9:59 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3
   
>
> Maybe a CPU heatsink with a heat pipe to get the "cool" end away from the
> top of the hot lantern?


I'm reminded of the old-school Peltier device I saw in an old Pop. Mechanics
(I think) that was just a bunch of nichrome and copper (or perhaps iron)
wires
twisted together into an asterisk pattern, all in series.  The hot ends
went into
a candle flame, the cold ends hung several inches out into the air.  I
think they
were powering a transistor radio with it.

The semiconductor Peltier devices are a lot more efficient, but only if the
operating temperatures are compatible, and the heat flow is adequate.

Currently, I believe, the lantern rig is deficient on both fronts.  More
work
is required!

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
>
> Maybe a CPU heatsink with a heat pipe to get the "cool" end away from the
> top of the hot lantern?


I'm reminded of the old-school Peltier device I saw in an old Pop. Mechanics
(I think) that was just a bunch of nichrome and copper (or perhaps iron)
wires
twisted together into an asterisk pattern, all in series.  The hot ends
went into
a candle flame, the cold ends hung several inches out into the air.  I
think they
were powering a transistor radio with it.

The semiconductor Peltier devices are a lot more efficient, but only if the
operating temperatures are compatible, and the heat flow is adequate.

Currently, I believe, the lantern rig is deficient on both fronts.  More
work
is required!

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-09 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
I am keeping up a temperature difference, just not a big enough one. ;)
My current idea is to see if I can extend my heatsink up and away, once you get 
a few inches above the lantern the temperature drops quickly, if I can get up 
into that cool air...
Anyway today is ChowdaQ prep day so its unlikely I'll have much time for 
experimenting.
-Curt

  From: Craig via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Craig <diese...@pisquared.net>
 Sent: Friday, September 9, 2016 1:46 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3
   
On Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:08:14 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Initial results were good as you can see in the pic, 1.7v. My USB
> booster is supposed to start working at .9v so thats enough power,
> especially if I set up a couple in series. Sadly it didn't last, once
> everything was completely heated up it dropped to .5v which is where it
> stayed. As an experiment I stacked another heatsink on top of the first
> one: immediate jump which climbed to just under 1v before dropping back
> to .5 again.

Which is what Fred or Phillip (I forget which) said would happen. You
have to keep up a temperature difference.


> So I need to make a system that sheds heat better. 

Maybe a CPU heatsink with a heat pipe to get the "cool" end away from the
top of the hot lantern?


> I've got an idea for that, more to come.

We're waiting!


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3 CIqFlieIy4

2016-09-08 Thread Craig via Mercedes 
On Thu, 8 Sep 2016 23:46:50 -0600 Craig via Mercedes
 wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:08:14 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> 
> > I've got an idea for that, more to come.
> 
> We're waiting!
> 
> 
> Craig

Now this is wierd. The system bounced my email, saying a code was
necessary, so I resend it with the code and both messages show up.


Craig


But this time, it doesn't post it without the code.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3 ANAfLxIW7Y

2016-09-08 Thread Craig via Mercedes 
On Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:08:14 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Initial results were good as you can see in the pic, 1.7v. My USB
> booster is supposed to start working at .9v so thats enough power,
> especially if I set up a couple in series. Sadly it didn't last, once
> everything was completely heated up it dropped to .5v which is where it
> stayed. As an experiment I stacked another heatsink on top of the first
> one: immediate jump which climbed to just under 1v before dropping back
> to .5 again.

Which is what Fred or Phillip (I forget which) said would happen. You
have to keep up a temperature difference.


> So I need to make a system that sheds heat better. 

Maybe a CPU heatsink with a heat pipe to get the "cool" end away from the
top of the hot lantern?


> I've got an idea for that, more to come.

We're waiting!


Craig

Regarding the code: HEY, LET'S GET THIS FIXED!!!

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-08 Thread Craig via Mercedes 
On Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:08:14 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Initial results were good as you can see in the pic, 1.7v. My USB
> booster is supposed to start working at .9v so thats enough power,
> especially if I set up a couple in series. Sadly it didn't last, once
> everything was completely heated up it dropped to .5v which is where it
> stayed. As an experiment I stacked another heatsink on top of the first
> one: immediate jump which climbed to just under 1v before dropping back
> to .5 again.

Which is what Fred or Phillip (I forget which) said would happen. You
have to keep up a temperature difference.


> So I need to make a system that sheds heat better. 

Maybe a CPU heatsink with a heat pipe to get the "cool" end away from the
top of the hot lantern?


> I've got an idea for that, more to come.

We're waiting!


Craig

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[MBZ] OT: Lantern charging part 3

2016-09-08 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
Made a new rig today: 
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/curtludwig/Lanterns/IMG_20160908_120213299_HDR_zps9b5ia6y1.jpgI
 cut a flat disk out of some steel, it sits right above the center of the 
lantern, so in the hottest spot. Initial results were good as you can see in 
the pic, 1.7v. My USB booster is supposed to start working at .9v so thats 
enough power, especially if I set up a couple in series.
Sadly it didn't last, once everything was completely heated up it dropped to 
.5v 
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/curtludwig/Lanterns/IMG_20160908_121431871_HDR_zpssc8g8t0v.jpg
 which is where it stayed.
As an experiment I stacked another heatsink on top of the first one: 
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/curtludwig/Lanterns/IMG_20160908_121555238_HDR_zpsqa2ejpfd.jpg
 immediate jump which climbed to just under 1v before dropping back to .5 
againhttp://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/curtludwig/Lanterns/IMG_20160908_123053114_HDR_zps305w6zek.jpg

This was inside the garage where the temps were in the low 70s with no wind. 
Outside on a breezy day it'd probably do better but I don't think it would be 
all that much better.
So I need to make a system that sheds heat better. I've got an idea for that, 
more to come.
-Curt
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