Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

It was about two years ago that the Feds announced they would be “adjusting” 
the flood insurance program premiums to better reflect a particular property’s 
risk.  Needless to say that freaked a lot of people out.

It happened, but they tempered it a little so owners didn’t get slammed in one 
big hit.  I think they agreed to phase the increased premiums over a period of 
time, I’m not sure what.  All I know is that a lot of properties around here 
that are in flood zones that were on the market at the time came off the market 
in a big hurry.  Potential buyers wouldn’t even look at them, as the ramp-up 
for premiums only applied to existing owners.  That meant new owners would get 
hammered with 100% of the “new” premiums.

There were all sorts of “the world is falling” pieces in the local media about 
the effects on home values.  Doesn’t seem to have had much of an effect from 
what I can see.

As far as I’m concerned that’s the way it should be.  They should ban 
construction in flood zones and make those who have property in them pay their 
fair share of the risk.

And I say this as someone who is on the edge of a flood zone and still carries 
Federal flood insurance.  The “AE and “X” zones bisect my property, but when 
the property was built an exemption (“LOMA”) was filed with FEMA due to the 
ground level being raised from 20 some feet to nearly 38 feet.  That 
effectively took me out of the flood zone, but if you look at the FEMA maps the 
zones still cross my property.

FEMA has this weird arrangement where they don’t update maps when changes are 
made - they issue exemptions called LOMAs, or “Letter of Map Amendment”, to the 
property which the County keeps on file.  So if you go and look up my address 
you’ll see that it’s in a flood zone.  If you contact the County about anything 
regarding my property, such as title insurance, underwriting, etc., they’ll 
offer up the exemption to show the ground level has been changed.

Goofy.

Dan


> On May 31, 2015, at 4:08 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Aha!  I guess things change.  I became a halfback (one-time Yankee who lived
> in FL but later moved halfway back) 10 years ago, right after Katrina
> (although that was not a factor).  Back then my FL homeowners and flood
> insurance was not bad (less than$2K); the bayou lot with 19 ft elevation was
> worth a lot more than the 50-year-old house.   But FL is still a bargain,
> IMO.  I have a brother who still lives in Northern suburban NJ and his taxes
> and insurance would water your eyes.
> 


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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Aha!  I guess things change.  I became a halfback (one-time Yankee who lived
in FL but later moved halfway back) 10 years ago, right after Katrina
(although that was not a factor).  Back then my FL homeowners and flood
insurance was not bad (less than$2K); the bayou lot with 19 ft elevation was
worth a lot more than the 50-year-old house.   But FL is still a bargain,
IMO.  I have a brother who still lives in Northern suburban NJ and his taxes
and insurance would water your eyes.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan
> Penoff via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 3:50 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Cc: Dan Penoff
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of
Worldwide
> Changes
> 
> That's more our wonderful Federal flood program. Laws and regulations have
> changed significantly to shift more of the burden to the insured with
higher
> and higher premiums and deductibles.
> 
> Dan
> 
> > On May 31, 2015, at 3:24 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> >
> > That's because all Floridians get the privilege of subsidizing (via FL
windstorm
> rider) uninsurable millionaires homes and ritzy developments built right
on
> the ocean and other places where they should not be.
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Dan > Penoff
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 9:46 AM
> >> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of
> >> Worldwide Changes
> > ...  > Understand that
> >> homeowners insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At
> >> one time my homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house
> valued at $185,000.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

That's more our wonderful Federal flood program. Laws and regulations have 
changed significantly to shift more of the burden to the insured with higher 
and higher premiums and deductibles.

Dan

> On May 31, 2015, at 3:24 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> That's because all Floridians get the privilege of subsidizing (via FL 
> windstorm rider) uninsurable millionaires homes and ritzy developments built 
> right on the ocean and other places where they should not be.  
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Dan > Penoff
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 9:46 AM
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide
>> Changes
> ...  > Understand that
>> homeowners insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At one time 
>> my
>> homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house valued at $185,000.
>> 
>> Dan
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

That's because all Floridians get the privilege of subsidizing (via FL 
windstorm rider) uninsurable millionaires homes and ritzy developments built 
right on the ocean and other places where they should not be.  

> -Original Message-
> From: Dan > Penoff
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 9:46 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide
> Changes
> 
...  > Understand that
> homeowners insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At one time my
> homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house valued at $185,000.
> 
> Dan


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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Dan Penoff]

+1

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Andrew Strasfogel  wrote:
> 
> Amen, brother.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>> 
>> Florida is one of the stupidest states in the union why would you be
>> surprised? ;)
>> The electric utilities need to realize that their mission is changing from
>> "provider of electricity" to "provider of transmission medium" and learn
>> how to bill that correctly. The increase in solar actually decreases strain
>> on the grid, little places out on the ends of transmission lines are
>> learning this and using it effectively.
>> Like most disruptive technologies the big companies are resisting change...
>> -Curt
>> 
>>  From: G Mann 
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 11:25 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of
>> Worldwide Changes
>> 
>> Some of the success with solar installation in Arizona is due to
>> legislation that is solar friendly.
>> 
>> For example, in AZ, a HOA may NOT refuse to allow solar panels on your
>> roof.
>> There are other nuances of law included in the legislation which restrain
>> virtually any act that would come between the homeowner and his use of
>> solar power.
>> 
>> The result of this legislation has been very positive for the use of solar
>> PV mounted on your roof.
>> 
>> It seems strange to me that the "sunshine state of Florida" is restrictive.
>> 
>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Dan Penoff  wrote:
>>> 
>>> True, but that's what net-zero is.
>>> 
>>> Also, due to things like building codes and insurance requirements,
>>> putting a solar array on your roof can increase costs elsewhere.  In my
>>> case I would probably have to replace my roof, as it's coming up on the
>>> point where it needs to be replaced, and as a result most reputable
>>> contractors would not be willing to install a solar array until it was
>>> done. The cost to R&R a solar array in order to replace the roof is
>> pretty
>>> significant.
>>> 
>>> Homeowner's insurance would increase as well.  Understand that homeowners
>>> insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At one time my
>>> homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house valued at
>> $185,000.
>>> 
>>> Dan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Craig  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:28:15 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number
>> of
>>>>> net-zero installs a year.  If you don’t get into that group, which is
>>>>> done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, but that is having a utility connection and solar panels, not
>>>> standalone.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Craig
>>>> 
>>>> ___
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>> 
>> 
>>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Andrew Strasfogel]

Amen, brother.



On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> Florida is one of the stupidest states in the union why would you be
> surprised? ;)
> The electric utilities need to realize that their mission is changing from
> "provider of electricity" to "provider of transmission medium" and learn
> how to bill that correctly. The increase in solar actually decreases strain
> on the grid, little places out on the ends of transmission lines are
> learning this and using it effectively.
> Like most disruptive technologies the big companies are resisting change...
> -Curt
>
>   From: G Mann 
>  To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 11:25 AM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of
> Worldwide Changes
>
> Some of the success with solar installation in Arizona is due to
> legislation that is solar friendly.
>
> For example, in AZ, a HOA may NOT refuse to allow solar panels on your
> roof.
> There are other nuances of law included in the legislation which restrain
> virtually any act that would come between the homeowner and his use of
> solar power.
>
> The result of this legislation has been very positive for the use of solar
> PV mounted on your roof.
>
> It seems strange to me that the "sunshine state of Florida" is restrictive.
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Dan Penoff  wrote:
>
> > True, but that's what net-zero is.
> >
> > Also, due to things like building codes and insurance requirements,
> > putting a solar array on your roof can increase costs elsewhere.  In my
> > case I would probably have to replace my roof, as it's coming up on the
> > point where it needs to be replaced, and as a result most reputable
> > contractors would not be willing to install a solar array until it was
> > done. The cost to R&R a solar array in order to replace the roof is
> pretty
> > significant.
> >
> > Homeowner's insurance would increase as well.  Understand that homeowners
> > insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At one time my
> > homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house valued at
> $185,000.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Craig  wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:28:15 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number
> of
> > >> net-zero installs a year.  If you don’t get into that group, which is
> > >> done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.
> > >
> > > Yes, but that is having a utility connection and solar panels, not
> > > standalone.
> > >
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
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> > >
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>
>
> > >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Dan Penoff]

The insurers in Florida freaked out after the major storms in the late 
80s/early 90s. They didn't want to accept the losses yet they still wanted to 
sell insurance in the state.

As a result of this, many carriers stopped writing new policies. The state 
forced them into a pool, much like most states have for high risk drivers, if 
they wanted to continue to do business in Florida.

Pool policies were not cheap, and the only way you could get homeowner's 
insurance at the time. Coverage was minimal as well. We had a pool policy when 
we first moved here, and it wasn't until about 2-3 years later that we could 
get an insurer to write a policy on our house.

They still have a pool that is run by the state (Citizen's Insurance) but most 
carriers are writing policies on their own.

The way they protect themselves now is by creating a subsidiary that is only 
licensed for the state. Our homeowner's policy is under one of these carriers 
who's parent is Allstate.

Rates have come down significantly as well. We pay about $1600/year for our 
policy, and it's a pretty typical homeowner's policy like I would expect to 
have anywhere else.

Dan

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Curly McLain <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Ins can be very significant.  Especially if you have to buy wind, fire and 
> flood as separate policies.
> 
> The wind insurance alone on my daughter's house is $3000+ a year.  I figure 
> not paying ins for one year will pay for a roof, and not paying the wind ins 
> for 2 years pays for the roof and someone else to install it.  It survived 
> Katrina, and other than a direct hit from a tornado, not much else will 
> challenge the force of katrina.  Many of her neighbors don't pay for wind 
> ins.  Lloyds of london was about the only carrier for wind ins.  Different 
> companies sold the policy, but the actual policy came from Lloyds.
> 
> After seeing inscos refuse to pay for repairs after Iniki and Katrina, 
> because "their shareholders expect a dividend," (not to mention the salaries 
> and perks of the executives) it makes me cynical about inscos in general.   
> They are right there with lawyers and crooked accountants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> True, but that's what net-zero is.
>> 
>> Also, due to things like building codes and insurance requirements, putting 
>> a solar array on your roof can increase costs elsewhere.  In my case I would 
>> probably have to replace my roof, as it's coming up on the point where it 
>> needs to be replaced, and as a result most reputable contractors would not 
>> be willing to install a solar array until it was done. The cost to R&R a 
>> solar array in order to replace the roof is pretty significant.
>> 
>> Homeowner's insurance would increase as well.  Understand that homeowners 
>> insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At one time my 
>> homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house valued at $185,000.
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
 On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Craig  wrote:
 
 On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:28:15 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
 
 In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number of
 net-zero installs a year.  If you don't get into that group, which is
 done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.
>>> 
>>> Yes, but that is having a utility connection and solar panels, not
>>> standalone.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Craig
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[OK Don]

When the corporations own the government, the shareholders come first, the
citizens last.

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> 
> Like most disruptive technologies the big companies are resisting change...
> -Curt
>
>
>


-- 
OK Don

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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Dan Penoff]

We have similar HOA laws - you cant restrict the installation of solar panels 
or other equipment.

Dan

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 11:25 AM, G Mann  wrote:
> 
> Some of the success with solar installation in Arizona is due to
> legislation that is solar friendly.
> 
> For example, in AZ, a HOA may NOT refuse to allow solar panels on your roof.
> There are other nuances of law included in the legislation which restrain
> virtually any act that would come between the homeowner and his use of
> solar power.
> 
> The result of this legislation has been very positive for the use of solar
> PV mounted on your roof.
> 
> It seems strange to me that the "sunshine state of Florida" is restrictive.
> 
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Dan Penoff  wrote:
>> 
>> True, but that's what net-zero is.
>> 
>> Also, due to things like building codes and insurance requirements,
>> putting a solar array on your roof can increase costs elsewhere.  In my
>> case I would probably have to replace my roof, as it's coming up on the
>> point where it needs to be replaced, and as a result most reputable
>> contractors would not be willing to install a solar array until it was
>> done. The cost to R&R a solar array in order to replace the roof is pretty
>> significant.
>> 
>> Homeowner's insurance would increase as well.  Understand that homeowners
>> insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At one time my
>> homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house valued at $185,000.
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
 On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Craig  wrote:
 
 On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:28:15 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
 
 In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number of
 net-zero installs a year.  If you don’t get into that group, which is
 done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.
>>> 
>>> Yes, but that is having a utility connection and solar panels, not
>>> standalone.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Craig
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Curt Raymond]

Florida is one of the stupidest states in the union why would you be surprised? 
;)
The electric utilities need to realize that their mission is changing from 
"provider of electricity" to "provider of transmission medium" and learn how to 
bill that correctly. The increase in solar actually decreases strain on the 
grid, little places out on the ends of transmission lines are learning this and 
using it effectively.
Like most disruptive technologies the big companies are resisting change...
-Curt

  From: G Mann 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
 Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 11:25 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide 
Changes
   
Some of the success with solar installation in Arizona is due to
legislation that is solar friendly.

For example, in AZ, a HOA may NOT refuse to allow solar panels on your roof.
There are other nuances of law included in the legislation which restrain
virtually any act that would come between the homeowner and his use of
solar power.

The result of this legislation has been very positive for the use of solar
PV mounted on your roof.

It seems strange to me that the "sunshine state of Florida" is restrictive.

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Dan Penoff  wrote:

> True, but that's what net-zero is.
>
> Also, due to things like building codes and insurance requirements,
> putting a solar array on your roof can increase costs elsewhere.  In my
> case I would probably have to replace my roof, as it's coming up on the
> point where it needs to be replaced, and as a result most reputable
> contractors would not be willing to install a solar array until it was
> done. The cost to R&R a solar array in order to replace the roof is pretty
> significant.
>
> Homeowner's insurance would increase as well.  Understand that homeowners
> insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At one time my
> homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house valued at $185,000.
>
> Dan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Craig  wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:28:15 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
> >>
> >> In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number of
> >> net-zero installs a year.  If you don’t get into that group, which is
> >> done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.
> >
> > Yes, but that is having a utility connection and solar panels, not
> > standalone.
> >
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


> >
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[G Mann]

Some of the success with solar installation in Arizona is due to
legislation that is solar friendly.

For example, in AZ, a HOA may NOT refuse to allow solar panels on your roof.
There are other nuances of law included in the legislation which restrain
virtually any act that would come between the homeowner and his use of
solar power.

The result of this legislation has been very positive for the use of solar
PV mounted on your roof.

It seems strange to me that the "sunshine state of Florida" is restrictive.

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Dan Penoff  wrote:

> True, but that's what net-zero is.
>
> Also, due to things like building codes and insurance requirements,
> putting a solar array on your roof can increase costs elsewhere.  In my
> case I would probably have to replace my roof, as it's coming up on the
> point where it needs to be replaced, and as a result most reputable
> contractors would not be willing to install a solar array until it was
> done. The cost to R&R a solar array in order to replace the roof is pretty
> significant.
>
> Homeowner's insurance would increase as well.  Understand that homeowners
> insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At one time my
> homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house valued at $185,000.
>
> Dan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Craig  wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:28:15 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
> >>
> >> In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number of
> >> net-zero installs a year.  If you don’t get into that group, which is
> >> done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.
> >
> > Yes, but that is having a utility connection and solar panels, not
> > standalone.
> >
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
>
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Curly McLain]

Ins can be very significant.  Especially if you have to buy wind, 
fire and flood as separate policies.


The wind insurance alone on my daughter's house is $3000+ a year.  I 
figure not paying ins for one year will pay for a roof, and not 
paying the wind ins for 2 years pays for the roof and someone else to 
install it.  It survived Katrina, and other than a direct hit from a 
tornado, not much else will challenge the force of katrina.  Many of 
her neighbors don't pay for wind ins.  Lloyds of london was about the 
only carrier for wind ins.  Different companies sold the policy, but 
the actual policy came from Lloyds.


After seeing inscos refuse to pay for repairs after Iniki and 
Katrina, because "their shareholders expect a dividend," (not to 
mention the salaries and perks of the executives) it makes me cynical 
about inscos in general.   They are right there with lawyers and 
crooked accountants.







True, but that's what net-zero is.

Also, due to things like building codes and insurance requirements, 
putting a solar array on your roof can increase costs elsewhere.  In 
my case I would probably have to replace my roof, as it's coming up 
on the point where it needs to be replaced, and as a result most 
reputable contractors would not be willing to install a solar array 
until it was done. The cost to R&R a solar array in order to replace 
the roof is pretty significant.


Homeowner's insurance would increase as well.  Understand that 
homeowners insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At 
one time my homeowner's insurance was over $3,000/year for a house 
valued at $185,000.


Dan

Sent from my iPad


 On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Craig  wrote:


 On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:28:15 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:

 In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number of
 net-zero installs a year.  If you don't get into that group, which is
 done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.


 Yes, but that is having a utility connection and solar panels, not
 standalone.


 Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Dan Penoff]

True, but that's what net-zero is.

Also, due to things like building codes and insurance requirements, putting a 
solar array on your roof can increase costs elsewhere.  In my case I would 
probably have to replace my roof, as it's coming up on the point where it needs 
to be replaced, and as a result most reputable contractors would not be willing 
to install a solar array until it was done. The cost to R&R a solar array in 
order to replace the roof is pretty significant.

Homeowner's insurance would increase as well.  Understand that homeowners 
insurance in Florida can be very, very significant.  At one time my homeowner's 
insurance was over $3,000/year for a house valued at $185,000.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Craig  wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:28:15 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
>> 
>> In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number of
>> net-zero installs a year.  If you don’t get into that group, which is
>> done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.
> 
> Yes, but that is having a utility connection and solar panels, not
> standalone.
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Curly McLain]

I promised more about Helco.  FWIW:

One of our neighbors was an engineer who helped with the setup of the 
first windmill farm.  He was a great guy.  However:  Helco/Hawaiian 
Electric owned an insurance co.  Nice way to make a lot of extra 
money.  All was great until Hurricane Iniki hit Kauai.  The massive 
devastation caused lots of insurance claims.  So what's an insurance 
co to do?  Well, contractually, they should pay the claims and lick 
their wounds.  Not Helco.  They went to the state legislature and 
asked for a donation (very large donation) from the state's taxpayers 
without their knowledge or consent.  Nach, the D legislators are 
quite happy to donate other people's money.  SO Helco got their 
extortion money "donated."


Nothing unusual about the above.   Here is the punch line:  Helco 
claimed they needed to extort taxpayer money for the damage because 
"their shareholders expected a dividend every year, and Helco felt 
the investors should have a dividend, and should not suffer a loss 
because of the hurricane!"


Yeah!  Hey state!  I suffered losses, I want a dividend and to earn 
money!  Where's my bailout?


WHAT?  I don't get one? ...

HELCO  is a sack of excrement.  I lost any respect for HELCO after 
that.  THe shareholders "deserved" dividends no matter what.  screw 
the taxpayers.


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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Mountain Man]

I like this guy:
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/04/15/breaking-news-over-unity-reactionless-generator-invented-in-india/

And then there is Joe Newman in LA or MS who sez he has the same setup.
Letting people be off grid is a function of money chasing legislation.
Nothing changes, everything remains the same.

What would the world look like if CC / GW were to be central to all
legislation? i.e. no more combustion?  The issue has been offlist for
a couple weeks but in pondering... What does life look like if all
things happened according to those of us okiebenz that desire
legislation and enforcement to stop CC / GW?  I don't want to use the
inflamatory language, hence CC / GW.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[G Mann]

In Arizona, which is solar friendly, I have two friends who had grid tie
systems installed, under a lease purchase arrangement. Each has 8,500 watts
of solar panels on their roof, installed for ZERO down and a 25 yr pay out
of about $90 per month. The install can be purchased at any time for the
remaining full value and the install runs with the property if it is sold.
All win/win.

One friends electric bill went from $400 a month in July to $80 for
electricity purchased, plus a check for electricity sold to the power
company.

The system has a solar controller as part of the system that runs the house
of solar generated energy and shunts excess  to the grid.. if solar
production drops, it shifts to power company energy to make up the
difference in energy to keep the house systems working at required
voltage.. Pretty smart box. The system comes with included maintance, so
any thing that doesn't preform gets replaced with a phone call.

The second friend has a duplicate of the first. Both are working well, and
saving money. They both run AC systems non stop during the day, one runs a
pool pump as well...

It can work well.. and here it does.. with 360 days of sun each year..

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Meade Dillon  wrote:

> I wonder if a dual-circuit set-up would work.  Have part of your home load
> on the PV cells, and ability to load-shed back to utility power when
> needed.  You may not be able to run HVAC and other big resistive loads, but
> you should be able to run lights / TV / computers / refrigerator / clothes
> washer / dishwasher.  Get a gas stove, water heater, clothes dryer, and a
> solar water heater.  If you can install a "florida" heat pump, your utility
> power bill be cut significantly.  If your power company uses a tiered
> billing scheme, you'd probably drop into the bottom tier.
>
> Big upfront costs, most of the ROI would probably be in the form of
> increased home value, but if you live there another ten or more years
> Don't forget to calculate the rate of inflation of the utility bill.
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Meade Dillon]

I wonder if a dual-circuit set-up would work.  Have part of your home load
on the PV cells, and ability to load-shed back to utility power when
needed.  You may not be able to run HVAC and other big resistive loads, but
you should be able to run lights / TV / computers / refrigerator / clothes
washer / dishwasher.  Get a gas stove, water heater, clothes dryer, and a
solar water heater.  If you can install a "florida" heat pump, your utility
power bill be cut significantly.  If your power company uses a tiered
billing scheme, you'd probably drop into the bottom tier.

Big upfront costs, most of the ROI would probably be in the form of
increased home value, but if you live there another ten or more years
Don't forget to calculate the rate of inflation of the utility bill.

-
Max
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[G Mann]

So much for all the government money spent on promoting renewable energy.

One side is screaming,, renewable energy or else, Congress passed a law
which requires all utility companies to generate 25% of their power via
renewable sources [I think it was Congress, if not some agency did it.]

The other side, the utility companies, are pushing back hard to keep
renewables from happening..

It seems unlikely to work out on it's own.. in the mean time.. citizens
suffer higher bills and higher rates.. I see no logic in it all.



On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Dan Penoff  wrote:

> Nothing, and some have done that.  The big issue is that in this climate
> our largest energy consumer is air conditioning, which is pretty much
> electricity and nothing else.  I’m not quite sure how they are doing solar
> and covering AC, but it’s being done.
>
> Here is an example of a net-zero development over near Orlando that is
> quite successful:
>
>
> http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/energy/net-zero-communities-that-make-solar-power-work-expand-in-florida/2211425
> <
> http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/energy/net-zero-communities-that-make-solar-power-work-expand-in-florida/2211425
> >
>
> You could never do this on your own as an individual, as the electric
> utilities in Florida are not (legally) obligated to do net-zero metering.
> If you want to do it, it’s on their terms, which are not terribly equitable
> as I understand it.  In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a
> limited number of net-zero installs a year.  If you don’t get into that
> group, which is done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too
> bad.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> > On Apr 20, 2015, at 12:55 PM, Craig  wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 05:40:16 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
> >
> >> Similar situation in Florida.  The utilities have a stranglehold on the
> >> legislature, and as a result the laws are such that it’s near
> >> impossible to do residential solar.
> >
> > What could they do if you generated all your electricity and cut yourself
> > off from the grid?
> >
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > ___
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> >
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> >
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Craig]

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:28:15 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:

> In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number of
> net-zero installs a year.  If you don’t get into that group, which is
> done at the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.

Yes, but that is having a utility connection and solar panels, not
standalone.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Mitch Haley]

Dan Penoff wrote:

Nothing, and some have done that.  The big issue is that in this climate our 
largest energy consumer is air conditioning, which is pretty much electricity 
and nothing else.  I’m not quite sure how they are doing solar and covering AC, 
but it’s being done.



PV actually helps smooth the grid load in an AC driven climate.
It's not perfect, output peaks at 1pm DST and load peaks 2-4 hours later, but it 
is a help, not a hindrance until you get a *lot* of PV hooked up to the grid.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Dan Penoff]

Nothing, and some have done that.  The big issue is that in this climate our 
largest energy consumer is air conditioning, which is pretty much electricity 
and nothing else.  I’m not quite sure how they are doing solar and covering AC, 
but it’s being done.

Here is an example of a net-zero development over near Orlando that is quite 
successful:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/energy/net-zero-communities-that-make-solar-power-work-expand-in-florida/2211425
 


You could never do this on your own as an individual, as the electric utilities 
in Florida are not (legally) obligated to do net-zero metering.  If you want to 
do it, it’s on their terms, which are not terribly equitable as I understand 
it.  In my area, the electric utility, TECO, only allows a limited number of 
net-zero installs a year.  If you don’t get into that group, which is done at 
the beginning of the year on a lottery basis, too bad.

Dan



> On Apr 20, 2015, at 12:55 PM, Craig  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 05:40:16 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
> 
>> Similar situation in Florida.  The utilities have a stranglehold on the
>> legislature, and as a result the laws are such that it’s near
>> impossible to do residential solar.
> 
> What could they do if you generated all your electricity and cut yourself
> off from the grid?
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Curly McLain]

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 05:40:16 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:


 Similar situation in Florida.  The utilities have a stranglehold on the
 legislature, and as a result the laws are such that it's near
 impossible to do residential solar.


What could they do if you generated all your electricity and cut yourself
off from the grid?

Craig


NOT A THING.  There are thousands of "off grid" people in HI.  We had 
a lot of friends and acquaintances who lived "off grid"   Most of 
Oceanview is off grid.  A lot of people are off grid in the  Puna, 
Kau and Hamakua districts.


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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Rich Thomas]

SC recently passed a law over the objections of the power utilities to 
allow home-based solar electric.  Apparently third parties will install 
and lease back the panels and the savings are supposedly fairly 
reasonable.  I live in the woods so don't get much direct sunlight on 
the roofs or I would probably look into it.


--R



On 4/20/15 12:55 PM, Craig wrote:

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 05:40:16 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:


Similar situation in Florida.  The utilities have a stranglehold on the
legislature, and as a result the laws are such that it’s near
impossible to do residential solar.

What could they do if you generated all your electricity and cut yourself
off from the grid?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Craig]

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 05:40:16 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:

> Similar situation in Florida.  The utilities have a stranglehold on the
> legislature, and as a result the laws are such that it’s near
> impossible to do residential solar.

What could they do if you generated all your electricity and cut yourself
off from the grid?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Dan Penoff]

Similar situation in Florida.  The utilities have a stranglehold on the 
legislature, and as a result the laws are such that it’s near impossible to do 
residential solar.

Dan


> On Apr 19, 2015, at 6:20 PM, Curly McLain <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Solar is nothing new in Hawaii.  30 years ago most houses had solar hor water 
> systems, thanks largely I'd surmise to the Jimmay cahtah tax credits.   
> Hawaii retired the first major wind turbine farm nealty 20 years ago.  It is 
> not surprising the Hawaii residents want solar electric, nor that HELCO is 
> suppressing solar.
> 
> More on HELCO later.
> 
> 


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Re: [MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[Curly McLain]

Solar is nothing new in Hawaii.  30 years ago most houses had solar 
hor water systems, thanks largely I'd surmise to the Jimmay cahtah 
tax credits.   Hawaii retired the first major wind turbine farm 
nealty 20 years ago.  It is not surprising the Hawaii residents want 
solar electric, nor that HELCO is suppressing solar.


More on HELCO later.


 > HONOLULU - Allan Akamine has looked all around the winding, palm 
tree-lined cul-de-sacs of his suburban neighborhood in Mililani here 
on Oahu and, with an equal mix of frustration and bemusement, seen 
roof after roof bearing solar panels.
 Mr. Akamine, 61, a manager for a cable company, has wanted nothing 
more than to lower his $600 to $700 monthly electric bill with a 
solar system of his own. But for 18 months or so, the state's 
biggest utility barred him and thousands of other customers from 
getting one, citing concerns that power generated by rooftop 
systems was overwhelming its ability to handle it.
 Only under strict orders from state energy officials did the 
utility, the Hawaiian Electric Company, recently rush to approve 
the lengthy backlog of solar applications, including Mr. Akamine's.
 It is the latest chapter in a closely watched battle that has put 
this state at the forefront of a global upheaval in the power 
business. Rooftop systems now sit atop roughly 12 percent of 
Hawaii's homes, according to the federal Energy Information 
Administration, by far the highest proportion in the nation.
 "Hawaii is a postcard from the future," said Adam Browning, 
executive director of Vote Solar, a policy and advocacy group based 
in California.Other states and countries, including California, 
Arizona, Japan and Germany, are struggling to adapt to the growing 
popularity of making electricity at home, which puts new pressures 
on old infrastructure like circuits and power lines and cuts into 
electric company revenue.
 As a result, many utilities are trying desperately to stem the 
rise of solar, either by reducing incentives, adding steep fees or 
effectively pushing home solar companies out of the market. In 
response, those solar companies are fighting back through 
regulators, lawmakers and the courts.
 The shift in the electric business is no less profound than those 
that upended the telecommunications and cable industries in recent 
decades. It is already remaking the relationship between power 
companies and the public while raising questions about how to pay 
for maintaining and operating the nation's grid.

 The issue is not merely academic, electrical engineers say.
 In solar-rich areas of California and Arizona, as well as in 
Hawaii, all that solar-generated electricity flowing out of houses 
and into a power grid designed to carry it in the other direction 
has caused unanticipated voltage fluctuations that can overload 
circuits, burn lines and lead to brownouts or blackouts.
 "Hawaii's case is not isolated," said Massoud Amin, a professor of 
electrical and computer engineering at the University of Minnesota 
and chairman of the smart grid program at the Institute of 
Electrical and Electronics Engineers, a technical association. 
"When we push year-on-year 30 to 40 percent growth in this market, 
with the number of installations doubling, quickly - every two 
years or so - there's going to be problems."
 The economic threat also has electric companies on edge. Over all, 
demand for electricity is softening while home solar is rapidly 
spreading across the country. There are now about 600,000 installed 
systems, and the number is expected to reach 3.3 million by 2020, 
according to the Solar Energy Industries Association.


 full 
story:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/business/energy-environment/solar-power-battle-puts-hawaii-at-forefront-of-worldwide-changes.html


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[MBZ] Solar Power Battle Puts Hawaii at Forefront of Worldwide Changes

[arche...@embarqmail.com]

> HONOLULU — Allan Akamine has looked all around the winding, palm tree-lined 
> cul-de-sacs of his suburban neighborhood in Mililani here on Oahu and, with 
> an equal mix of frustration and bemusement, seen roof after roof bearing 
> solar panels.
> Mr. Akamine, 61, a manager for a cable company, has wanted nothing more than 
> to lower his $600 to $700 monthly electric bill with a solar system of his 
> own. But for 18 months or so, the state’s biggest utility barred him and 
> thousands of other customers from getting one, citing concerns that power 
> generated by rooftop systems was overwhelming its ability to handle it.
> Only under strict orders from state energy officials did the utility, the 
> Hawaiian Electric Company, recently rush to approve the lengthy backlog of 
> solar applications, including Mr. Akamine’s.
> It is the latest chapter in a closely watched battle that has put this state 
> at the forefront of a global upheaval in the power business. Rooftop systems 
> now sit atop roughly 12 percent of Hawaii’s homes, according to the federal 
> Energy Information Administration, by far the highest proportion in the 
> nation.
> “Hawaii is a postcard from the future,” said Adam Browning, executive 
> director of Vote Solar, a policy and advocacy group based in California.Other 
> states and countries, including California, Arizona, Japan and Germany, are 
> struggling to adapt to the growing popularity of making electricity at home, 
> which puts new pressures on old infrastructure like circuits and power lines 
> and cuts into electric company revenue.
> As a result, many utilities are trying desperately to stem the rise of solar, 
> either by reducing incentives, adding steep fees or effectively pushing home 
> solar companies out of the market. In response, those solar companies are 
> fighting back through regulators, lawmakers and the courts.
> The shift in the electric business is no less profound than those that 
> upended the telecommunications and cable industries in recent decades. It is 
> already remaking the relationship between power companies and the public 
> while raising questions about how to pay for maintaining and operating the 
> nation’s grid.
> The issue is not merely academic, electrical engineers say.
> In solar-rich areas of California and Arizona, as well as in Hawaii, all that 
> solar-generated electricity flowing out of houses and into a power grid 
> designed to carry it in the other direction has caused unanticipated voltage 
> fluctuations that can overload circuits, burn lines and lead to brownouts or 
> blackouts.
> “Hawaii’s case is not isolated,” said Massoud Amin, a professor of electrical 
> and computer engineering at the University of Minnesota and chairman of the 
> smart grid program at the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, 
> a technical association. “When we push year-on-year 30 to 40 percent growth 
> in this market, with the number of installations doubling, quickly — every 
> two years or so — there’s going to be problems.”
> The economic threat also has electric companies on edge. Over all, demand for 
> electricity is softening while home solar is rapidly spreading across the 
> country. There are now about 600,000 installed systems, and the number is 
> expected to reach 3.3 million by 2020, according to the Solar Energy 
> Industries Association.

> full 
> story:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/business/energy-environment/solar-power-battle-puts-hawaii-at-forefront-of-worldwide-changes.html

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