Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[MICHAEL ESH]

Andrew,
I am not sure.  His name is Tom.
Carr Auto Electric
His phone # is 231-788-0793


- Original Message - 
From: "andrew strasfogel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on



Michael,

Can he also fix a Bosch 1970 W111 wiper motor that doesn't shut off 
properly

when in low-speed mode?  I


On 12/10/06, MICHAEL ESH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I pulled the alternator and will have it tested tomorrow at a local
shop.  The guy runs a one man auto electric shop and will even let you 
come

back and watch the procedure. He will often rebuild them on the spot. New
bushings,  electrics, diodes, rectifiers, and all that stuff.

Mike
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Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[andrew strasfogel]

Michael,

Can he also fix a Bosch 1970 W111 wiper motor that doesn't shut off properly
when in low-speed mode?  I


On 12/10/06, MICHAEL ESH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I pulled the alternator and will have it tested tomorrow at a local
shop.  The guy runs a one man auto electric shop and will even let you come
back and watch the procedure. He will often rebuild them on the spot. New
bushings,  electrics, diodes, rectifiers, and all that stuff.

Mike
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Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Peter Frederick]

I did that with my 220D alternater.  All I got back was the case 
all replacement guts.


Peter

[MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[MICHAEL ESH]

I pulled the alternator and will have it tested tomorrow at a local shop.  The 
guy runs a one man auto electric shop and will even let you come back and watch 
the procedure. He will often rebuild them on the spot. New bushings,  
electrics, diodes, rectifiers, and all that stuff.

Mike
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What's the list opinion about Bosio vs Bosch *nozzle*s ? Thing about
going with Bosio 

Bill
1981 300 TD

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Hans Neureiter]

Jim; I appreciate this dissertation of the regulator circuitry which I
obviously never fully understod.  I am saving it.
Blame it on the military. Unlike others who gained expertice in electronics
and such, I spend a lot of time on KB duty and in the brigg for being non
conforming, contrary and just a plain A-hole. I am learning now.

On 12/7/06, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> I cannot see how a bad diode/Rectifier, loose belt, bad fuse etc can
> keep
> the light on as you describe.

A bad diode can.  The circuit has already been adequately described,
perhaps a bad ASCII schematic?

 D1  D7Winding A
 D2  D8Winding B
 Terminal D  D3  D9Winding C

/--+--|<|-+-()()()()---+
   |   S1 |   /--|<|/
  |
  /+--o-->o--+--+
+--|<|-+-()()()()---+
  |  |  | |   |--|<|/
  |
=== |  |  
\--|<|-+-()()()()---+
  ==+-|Lamp|--+-|<|/
=== Bat. |Misc.|     | Terminal B
  =   |Loads|=
===   =|Volt.| Field
  =  |  |
Reg.|BR--()()()()---\
  |  |   =
  |

\--+-+---
BR-/

   |
   Rest of Car <-- | ---> Inside alternator
   |

Not shown are D4, D5, and D6, the other three heavy diodes that complete
the three-phase rectifier system.  (They don't matter for the purposes
of
this discussion, and it was hard enough to draw the above and try to
make it clear.)

Normally, when everything is working right, battery current runs through
S1, the ignition switch, and powers various loads (ABS, radio, SRS,
ACC...), as well as running through the lamp to the voltage regulator,
thence through the brushes to the field winding and to ground.  The lamp
is lit by this field current.  No current goes through any of the
diodes.

Once the alternator is spinning, its generated current runs through
D1-D3
(and virtual ground is supplied through the not shown D4-D6) to charge
the battery.  The voltage regulator monitors this voltage, and is
powered
by it too, through D7-D9, resulting in a net zero voltage across the
lamp
which remains dark.

Now, if any of D1-D3 are shorted, even when the key is off battery
current will flow through the offender, through the windings and
through D7-D9, to the voltage regulator which will power the field
winding, _and_ through the lamp to the other normally-switched loads.
There is obviously, in your case, enough current to light the lamp.
It only takes something like 100m-200mA to light the thing.  It's
the alternator field winding that sucked the battery dry so quickly.

All clear?

-- Jim


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--
Hans Neureiter, Houston, TX
'82 300SD, '95 E300D

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Jim Cathey]

perhaps a bad ASCII schematic?


Wow, the word-wrap really hammered that!  Correction
is left as an exercise for the reader...  As a hint,
the three ()()()() windings are all the way out at
the right.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Jim Cathey]

I cannot see how a bad diode/Rectifier, loose belt, bad fuse etc can  
keep

the light on as you describe.


A bad diode can.  The circuit has already been adequately described,
perhaps a bad ASCII schematic?

D1  D7Winding A
D2  D8Winding B
Terminal D  D3  D9Winding C
   
/--+--|<|-+-()()()()---+
  |   S1 |   /--|<|/ 
 |
 /+--o-->o--+--+  
+--|<|-+-()()()()---+
 |  |  | |   |--|<|/ 
 |
=== |  |  
\--|<|-+-()()()()---+

 ==+-|Lamp|--+-|<|/
=== Bat. |Misc.|     | Terminal B
 =   |Loads|=
===   =|Volt.| Field
 =  |  |  
Reg.|BR--()()()()---\
 |  |   =
 |
  
\--+-+--- 
BR-/


  |
  Rest of Car <-- | ---> Inside alternator
  |

Not shown are D4, D5, and D6, the other three heavy diodes that complete
the three-phase rectifier system.  (They don't matter for the purposes  
of

this discussion, and it was hard enough to draw the above and try to
make it clear.)

Normally, when everything is working right, battery current runs through
S1, the ignition switch, and powers various loads (ABS, radio, SRS,
ACC...), as well as running through the lamp to the voltage regulator,
thence through the brushes to the field winding and to ground.  The lamp
is lit by this field current.  No current goes through any of the  
diodes.


Once the alternator is spinning, its generated current runs through  
D1-D3

(and virtual ground is supplied through the not shown D4-D6) to charge
the battery.  The voltage regulator monitors this voltage, and is  
powered
by it too, through D7-D9, resulting in a net zero voltage across the  
lamp

which remains dark.

Now, if any of D1-D3 are shorted, even when the key is off battery
current will flow through the offender, through the windings and
through D7-D9, to the voltage regulator which will power the field
winding, _and_ through the lamp to the other normally-switched loads.
There is obviously, in your case, enough current to light the lamp.
It only takes something like 100m-200mA to light the thing.  It's
the alternator field winding that sucked the battery dry so quickly.

All clear?

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Michael Hall]

On 12/7/06, Hans Neureiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


The lamp gets ground from the "I" wire
only, and only when the alternator charges.




Incorrect, which is why your ign. switch idea is incorrect.

As put by Peter Federick

"The alternator light is the "indicator" in a voltage balance circuit --
it says there is current flowing through the alternator winding, not
"balanced" by output.  The circuit is usually not directional, so
current flow from the battery to the alternator will cause it to come
on (not chargine), but so will current flow from a short."

It's def'n the alternator.

Mike

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Hans Neureiter]

should say:' is not charging'

and only when the alternator 'charges'.




--
Hans Neureiter, Houston, TX
'82 300SD, '95 E300D

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Hans Neureiter]

I cannot see how a bad diode/Rectifier, loose belt, bad fuse etc can keep
the light on as you describe. If you read my reply , everything I predict
happens, including the last part. The lamp gets ground from the "I" wire
only, and only when the alternator charges.
With the key of, do any other switched loads remain on, like windshield
wiper, radio, etc?
Check the wires at the switch. Only one wire should be hot with the switch
in the off position.

On 12/6/06, MICHAEL ESH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Thanks to all for your input.  I just checked a few more things.
Battery takes a charge with charger.
Car starts with good battery.
Light goes off when car starts.
Light comes on when car is shut off.
Voltage at battery cables with car running and unhooked  from battery is
11.1 at idle to 12.2 when revved up with no lights or fans on.

Other facts:  Light goes out when I disconnect the alternator.
I put a new Regulator in about a month ago.

Thanks again for any other thoughts.

Mike in Michigan

- Original Message -
From: "Hans Neureiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Red dash light for Battery is staying on


>i suspect the electrical part in your ignition switch. There may be some
>ice
> inside so the swith doesn't work.
> The charging light gets fed 12V from the switch to one side and ground
(I
> wire) through the field windings on the other. Key on - the lamp lights.
> When the Alternator is producing  output, the windings become forward
12V
> and the light goes ot since the lamp now has 12V at both sides. On a
swith
> that doesn't work, with the key on or off  the light stays where the
> switch
> failed. With the car running and the alternator 'alternatering', the
light
> will go off, irregardless of the swith.
>
> On 12/5/06, MICHAEL ESH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I just went out to start my 1981 300sd and the battery was stone cold
>> dead.  It started fine two days ago. I put a charger on and walked out
15
>> minutes ago and red battery indicator light is on.  It stays on with
key
>> in
>> the off or on position.  In addition the glow light did not come on
when
>> I
>> tried starting it.  It is about 20 digress F out there tonight.  I did
>> not
>> start.  I am going out to try it again.Any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike  in Michigan
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
>> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Hans Neureiter, Houston, TX
> '82 300SD, '95 E300D
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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--
Hans Neureiter, Houston, TX
'82 300SD, '95 E300D

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Jim Cathey]

Battery takes a charge with charger.
Car starts with good battery.
Light goes off when car starts.
Light comes on when car is shut off.
Voltage at battery cables with car running and unhooked from battery
[charger] is 11.1 at idle to 12.2 when revved up with no lights or 
fans.


Bad diode, not usually a replaceable component.

If you kept the bad regulator you could put it back in your
now-dead one for a core, and save your month-old regulator for
a spare.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[David Brodbeck]

Michael Hall wrote:
> Nope, def'n a loose belt.  Go ahead and replace all the belts on the car,
> and while you're at it, any rubber hoses or other components.  Then and only
> then will the light go out.  Except you may also need new injectors, and a
> headlight switch.  But first change the belts.
>   

You left out changing the fuses. ;)

I agree with the other posters who have suggested he's probably got a
shorted alternator diode.

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Peter Frederick]

Mike:

Your diodes are fried.

Please do not run the alternator without the battery in the circuit, it 
will, if working (and your isn't) go way overvoltage and fry things.  
Not good.  This usually finishes off weak diodes, by the way.


12.1V will not charge the battery, you must get at least 12.5, 
preferably 13 at idle, and should get 14-14.5 at 1500 rpm.  anything 
less, the alternator isn't putting out enough voltage (let alone 
amperage!).


Peter

Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Michael Hall]

Nope, def'n a loose belt.  Go ahead and replace all the belts on the car,
and while you're at it, any rubber hoses or other components.  Then and only
then will the light go out.  Except you may also need new injectors, and a
headlight switch.  But first change the belts.

Or - just change the alternator, including voltage regulator.

Mike

On 12/6/06, Loren Faeth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Bad diode in alternator.

At 06:10 PM 12/6/2006, you wrote:
>Thanks to all for your input.  I just checked a few more things.
>Battery takes a charge with charger.
>Car starts with good battery.
>Light goes off when car starts.
>Light comes on when car is shut off.
>Voltage at battery cables with car running and unhooked  from battery is
>11.1 at idle to 12.2 when revved up with no lights or fans on.
>
>Other facts:  Light goes out when I disconnect the alternator.
>I put a new Regulator in about a month ago.
>
>Thanks again for any other thoughts.
>
>Mike in Michigan
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Hans Neureiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:56 PM
>Subject: Re: [MBZ] Red dash light for Battery is staying on
>
>
> >i suspect the electrical part in your ignition switch. There may be
some
> >ice
> > inside so the swith doesn't work.
> > The charging light gets fed 12V from the switch to one side and ground
(I
> > wire) through the field windings on the other. Key on - the lamp
lights.
> > When the Alternator is producing  output, the windings become forward
12V
> > and the light goes ot since the lamp now has 12V at both sides. On a
swith
> > that doesn't work, with the key on or off  the light stays where the
> > switch
> > failed. With the car running and the alternator 'alternatering', the
light
> > will go off, irregardless of the swith.
> >
> > On 12/5/06, MICHAEL ESH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I just went out to start my 1981 300sd and the battery was stone cold
> >> dead.  It started fine two days ago. I put a charger on and walked
out 15
> >> minutes ago and red battery indicator light is on.  It stays on with
key
> >> in
> >> the off or on position.  In addition the glow light did not come on
when
> >> I
> >> tried starting it.  It is about 20 digress F out there tonight.  I
did
> >> not
> >> start.  I am going out to try it again.Any ideas?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Mike  in Michigan
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> >> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Hans Neureiter, Houston, TX
> > '82 300SD, '95 E300D
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
>___
>http://www.okiebenz.com
>For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
>For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Loren Faeth


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Re: [MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[Loren Faeth]

Bad diode in alternator.

At 06:10 PM 12/6/2006, you wrote:

Thanks to all for your input.  I just checked a few more things.
Battery takes a charge with charger.
Car starts with good battery.
Light goes off when car starts.
Light comes on when car is shut off.
Voltage at battery cables with car running and unhooked  from battery is
11.1 at idle to 12.2 when revved up with no lights or fans on.

Other facts:  Light goes out when I disconnect the alternator.
I put a new Regulator in about a month ago.

Thanks again for any other thoughts.

Mike in Michigan

- Original Message -
From: "Hans Neureiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Red dash light for Battery is staying on


>i suspect the electrical part in your ignition switch. There may be some
>ice
> inside so the swith doesn't work.
> The charging light gets fed 12V from the switch to one side and ground (I
> wire) through the field windings on the other. Key on - the lamp lights.
> When the Alternator is producing  output, the windings become forward 12V
> and the light goes ot since the lamp now has 12V at both sides. On a swith
> that doesn't work, with the key on or off  the light stays where the
> switch
> failed. With the car running and the alternator 'alternatering', the light
> will go off, irregardless of the swith.
>
> On 12/5/06, MICHAEL ESH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I just went out to start my 1981 300sd and the battery was stone cold
>> dead.  It started fine two days ago. I put a charger on and walked out 15
>> minutes ago and red battery indicator light is on.  It stays on with key
>> in
>> the off or on position.  In addition the glow light did not come on when
>> I
>> tried starting it.  It is about 20 digress F out there tonight.  I did
>> not
>> start.  I am going out to try it again.Any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike  in Michigan
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
>> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Hans Neureiter, Houston, TX
> '82 300SD, '95 E300D
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Loren Faeth 

[MBZ] Update Re: Red dash light for Battery is staying on

[MICHAEL ESH]

Thanks to all for your input.  I just checked a few more things.
Battery takes a charge with charger.
Car starts with good battery.
Light goes off when car starts.
Light comes on when car is shut off.
Voltage at battery cables with car running and unhooked  from battery is 
11.1 at idle to 12.2 when revved up with no lights or fans on.


Other facts:  Light goes out when I disconnect the alternator.
I put a new Regulator in about a month ago.

Thanks again for any other thoughts.

Mike in Michigan

- Original Message - 
From: "Hans Neureiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Red dash light for Battery is staying on


i suspect the electrical part in your ignition switch. There may be some 
ice

inside so the swith doesn't work.
The charging light gets fed 12V from the switch to one side and ground (I
wire) through the field windings on the other. Key on - the lamp lights.
When the Alternator is producing  output, the windings become forward 12V
and the light goes ot since the lamp now has 12V at both sides. On a swith
that doesn't work, with the key on or off  the light stays where the 
switch

failed. With the car running and the alternator 'alternatering', the light
will go off, irregardless of the swith.

On 12/5/06, MICHAEL ESH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I just went out to start my 1981 300sd and the battery was stone cold
dead.  It started fine two days ago. I put a charger on and walked out 15
minutes ago and red battery indicator light is on.  It stays on with key 
in
the off or on position.  In addition the glow light did not come on when 
I
tried starting it.  It is about 20 digress F out there tonight.  I did 
not

start.  I am going out to try it again.Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mike  in Michigan
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--
Hans Neureiter, Houston, TX
'82 300SD, '95 E300D
___
http://www.okiebenz.com
For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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