Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
On 04/12/2011 2:47 PM, Fmiser wrote: Dan Penoff wrote: My last house (4500 sf) had a 400 amp service, for what I don't know. Theater lights? A really, really big welder? -- Philip Grow Op?? Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
On 03/12/2011 7:10 PM, Craig wrote: On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 18:57:22 -0600 Fmiserfmi...@gmail.com wrote: Scott and Gwen Ritchey wrote: A 200 amp service entrance is pretty-much standard so that's probably what you have. Standard as of when? Not everyone lives in a15 year old house. -- Philip, in a house that was old when it was electrified. Our house was built in 1959 with a 60 Amp service. We upgraged it this summer to 200 Amps. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
On 03/12/2011 6:57 PM, Fmiser wrote: Scott and Gwen Ritchey wrote: A 200 amp service entrance is pretty-much standard so that's probably what you have. Standard as of when? Not everyone lives in a15 year old house. -- Philip, in a house that was old when it was electrified. ___ My house was built in 1981. It had 100Amp but it also has underground wiring to the transformer and I believe we were told that all of the underground wiring here is good for 200Amp. I guess we will find out as I think we need to bite the bullet and get it done come summer. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Hmm. Hadn't thought about that one... Dan Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2011, at 12:22 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: On 04/12/2011 2:47 PM, Fmiser wrote: Dan Penoff wrote: My last house (4500 sf) had a 400 amp service, for what I don't know. Theater lights? A really, really big welder? -- Philip Grow Op?? Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
And one can run chilled water through copper lines (slightly larger) just as easy as freon but with a lot less loss due to gas leaks. That's why I don't like using freon as a distribution medium. Look at any specification for a central AC system and you will see a specified loss of freon of as much as 1/4 oz. or more per year. The more the connections the more loss will occur. With water there is no such loss as water will not be in a gaseous state while in this use nor under anywhere near the same pressures. Ducts don't come into it at all in either scenario. Manfred Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:50:57 -0500 From: Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT MG trainpain2...@yahoo.com writes: still don't like the freon circulation. Why not? A heck of a lot easier to snake copper tubing through existing construction than to install ductwork. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I work in an office that is part of a data center (our cubicles are part of an old tape library vault) that is covered by a gas discharge fire protection system. It was Halon at one time, but I believe it is now charged with CO2 or some other inert gas that is not a fluorocarbon. I walk by the big tank all the time - I'll look at it tomorrow and report back what sort of agent is in it. Dan Sent from my iPhone On Dec 4, 2011, at 10:34 PM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net wrote: Haylon. We still have a system like that at work for some reason (the current excuse is that there is an I/O board in there for a current loop system) left over from the days when a VAX lived in there. We are required to evacuate the building if it ever goes off, Halon is a chloro-fluorcarbon of some sort, and once you breath it in, it's very difficult to get it back out of your lungs -- very dense. NASCAR and Indycar racing had a couple fatalities with it in the 60's or early 70's and quit using it in race cars -- tended to extinguish the driver along with a fire. Pretty funny that most smartphones have an order of magnitude better processor performance than a DEC VAX. Peter On Dec 4, 2011, at 9:20 PM, Rich Thomas wrote: I worked in an office once where the middle of the space was a raised floor glassed-in room with a bunch of PDPs and VAxs in it. One day someone tripped the fire suppressant (I forget what it was called, some kind of freon) and it took about 30sec to completely blow down, alarms going off, etc. It cost a fair amount to replace it all. No one died but I think the guy who tripped it wished he were dead. --R On 12/4/11 7:09 PM, Walt Zarnoch wrote: Newer refrigerants are quite inert, so explosion/fire issues aren't that big. The worst problem I can foresee would be if a unit vented the entire charge in a closed room, in which case you would have oxygen displacement. Walt On Dec 4, 2011 6:51 PM, Allan Streibstr...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: MGtrainpain2...@yahoo.com writes: still don't like the freon circulation. Why not? A heck of a lot easier to snake copper tubing through existing construction than to install ductwork. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
My last house (4500 sf) had a 400 amp service, for what I don't know. Didn't have electric heat, had forced air, and only one AC unit. Dan Sent from my iPhone On Dec 3, 2011, at 8:10 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 18:57:22 -0600 Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: Scott and Gwen Ritchey wrote: A 200 amp service entrance is pretty-much standard so that's probably what you have. Standard as of when? Not everyone lives in a 15 year old house. -- Philip, in a house that was old when it was electrified. Our house was built in 1959 with a 60 Amp service. We upgraged it this summer to 200 Amps. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Yes, I think those are the ones I looked at. The only problem with them is that for the size I need it would not split to enough cooling points inside. If I remember two smaller units would also not split enough, can't really remember now. Then there was also the problem that I did want to use geothermal cooling which was and as far as I know still is not available in those type of units. The other down side of those units is they pump freon around rather then chilled water. With the water units the individual cooling units can be over-sized due to the self throttling of the water flow. That way a smaller chiller can be used since not all the units will be going full out at any one time and probably not at any time due to the shape of and insulation in my house (dome). In the winter any heating needed can also be done using the same system. It would also be a lot easier to make changes in the system to see what might be a better location of cooling units. Yeah I do like to experiment and see 'what if'. Manfred Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 22:02:56 -0500 From: Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT There is a system called a mini-split or multi-split that sounds like what you are describing. It doesnt work with your radiators but it's an installed outdoor unit connected to one or more interior units. I believe they can work in AC and/or heating modes. Allan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I am going to put a mini-split heat pump system in my addition, 4 9+9+12+12 kBTU head units, the outside unit is 36k and it can throttle down pretty low. I gotta order the lines and cabling soon to get it in the walls. My calculations show the whole thing needing only 18k to heat/cool it, so this should be enough to add a bit to the rest of the house when it is cranking. These things are pretty efficient and easy to install in new work, and even in existing houses if you can easily route the lines from outside or a basement or something. --R On 12/4/11 11:27 AM, MG wrote: Yes, I think those are the ones I looked at. The only problem with them is that for the size I need it would not split to enough cooling points inside. If I remember two smaller units would also not split enough, can't really remember now. Then there was also the problem that I did want to use geothermal cooling which was and as far as I know still is not available in those type of units. The other down side of those units is they pump freon around rather then chilled water. With the water units the individual cooling units can be over-sized due to the self throttling of the water flow. That way a smaller chiller can be used since not all the units will be going full out at any one time and probably not at any time due to the shape of and insulation in my house (dome). In the winter any heating needed can also be done using the same system. It would also be a lot easier to make changes in the system to see what might be a better location of cooling units. Yeah I do like to experiment and see 'what if'. Manfred Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 22:02:56 -0500 From: Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT There is a system called a mini-split or multi-split that sounds like what you are describing. It doesnt work with your radiators but it's an installed outdoor unit connected to one or more interior units. I believe they can work in AC and/or heating modes. Allan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Dan Penoff wrote: My last house (4500 sf) had a 400 amp service, for what I don't know. Theater lights? A really, really big welder? -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
A 400 amp service was/is the trendy thing in mcMansions. they get lots of breaker spaces for all the circuits that are supposed to be on a dedicated circuit. Stove, dryer, MW, DW, A/C 1, A/c2, A/C 3, entertainment center 1, 2 and 3. swimming pool equipment, hot tub, water heaters 1, 2 and 3, Garage door openers 1,2 and 3, then add on whatever is the latest thing. I count 29 breaker spaces just for the stuff I mentioned. Then there are lights and outlets. I wonder what the service entrances look like in albore's mansion. at 20,000 dollars a month, that is a lot of amps. Dan Penoff wrote: My last house (4500 sf) had a 400 amp service, for what I don't know. Theater lights? A really, really big welder? -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
- Original Message - From: Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT Dan Penoff wrote: My last house (4500 sf) had a 400 amp service, for what I don't know. Theater lights? Grow house? Gerry A really, really big welder? -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2102/4056 - Release Date: 12/04/11 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Apparently that is the standard now for big houses as they tend to have 2-200A panels for all the stuff in them. Interesting you had that service -- did you also have 2 panels+main breakers? --R On 12/4/11 3:47 PM, Fmiser wrote: Dan Penoff wrote: My last house (4500 sf) had a 400 amp service, for what I don't know. Theater lights? A really, really big welder? -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Yup. That's what I remember. I was thinking that because of the size of the rooms and open areas I would need to get two of those units and then I would be at 3 tons over the amount of cooling needed. If there was one unit that could split into 8 that would work but still don't like the freon circulation. Manfred Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:42:44 -0500 From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT I am going to put a mini-split heat pump system in my addition, 4 9+9+12+12 kBTU head units, the outside unit is 36k and it can throttle down pretty low. I gotta order the lines and cabling soon to get it in the walls. My calculations show the whole thing needing only 18k to heat/cool it, so this should be enough to add a bit to the rest of the house when it is cranking. These things are pretty efficient and easy to install in new work, and even in existing houses if you can easily route the lines from outside or a basement or something. --R ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
MG trainpain2...@yahoo.com writes: still don't like the freon circulation. Why not? A heck of a lot easier to snake copper tubing through existing construction than to install ductwork. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Newer refrigerants are quite inert, so explosion/fire issues aren't that big. The worst problem I can foresee would be if a unit vented the entire charge in a closed room, in which case you would have oxygen displacement. Walt On Dec 4, 2011 6:51 PM, Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: MG trainpain2...@yahoo.com writes: still don't like the freon circulation. Why not? A heck of a lot easier to snake copper tubing through existing construction than to install ductwork. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I worked in an office once where the middle of the space was a raised floor glassed-in room with a bunch of PDPs and VAxs in it. One day someone tripped the fire suppressant (I forget what it was called, some kind of freon) and it took about 30sec to completely blow down, alarms going off, etc. It cost a fair amount to replace it all. No one died but I think the guy who tripped it wished he were dead. --R On 12/4/11 7:09 PM, Walt Zarnoch wrote: Newer refrigerants are quite inert, so explosion/fire issues aren't that big. The worst problem I can foresee would be if a unit vented the entire charge in a closed room, in which case you would have oxygen displacement. Walt On Dec 4, 2011 6:51 PM, Allan Streibstr...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: MGtrainpain2...@yahoo.com writes: still don't like the freon circulation. Why not? A heck of a lot easier to snake copper tubing through existing construction than to install ductwork. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Oooh, HALON! Safer than CO2 at the recommended concentrations when used as a fire suppressant, but bad for the ozone layer. Also a #%^@ of a lot more expensive than CO2 setups, or extinguishers, but won't harm equipment. Walt On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: I worked in an office once where the middle of the space was a raised floor glassed-in room with a bunch of PDPs and VAxs in it. One day someone tripped the fire suppressant (I forget what it was called, some kind of freon) and it took about 30sec to completely blow down, alarms going off, etc. It cost a fair amount to replace it all. No one died but I think the guy who tripped it wished he were dead. --R On 12/4/11 7:09 PM, Walt Zarnoch wrote: Newer refrigerants are quite inert, so explosion/fire issues aren't that big. The worst problem I can foresee would be if a unit vented the entire charge in a closed room, in which case you would have oxygen displacement. Walt On Dec 4, 2011 6:51 PM, Allan Streibstr...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: MGtrainpain2...@yahoo.com writes: still don't like the freon circulation. Why not? A heck of a lot easier to snake copper tubing through existing construction than to install ductwork. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Haylon. We still have a system like that at work for some reason (the current excuse is that there is an I/O board in there for a current loop system) left over from the days when a VAX lived in there. We are required to evacuate the building if it ever goes off, Halon is a chloro-fluorcarbon of some sort, and once you breath it in, it's very difficult to get it back out of your lungs -- very dense. NASCAR and Indycar racing had a couple fatalities with it in the 60's or early 70's and quit using it in race cars -- tended to extinguish the driver along with a fire. Pretty funny that most smartphones have an order of magnitude better processor performance than a DEC VAX. Peter On Dec 4, 2011, at 9:20 PM, Rich Thomas wrote: I worked in an office once where the middle of the space was a raised floor glassed-in room with a bunch of PDPs and VAxs in it. One day someone tripped the fire suppressant (I forget what it was called, some kind of freon) and it took about 30sec to completely blow down, alarms going off, etc. It cost a fair amount to replace it all. No one died but I think the guy who tripped it wished he were dead. --R On 12/4/11 7:09 PM, Walt Zarnoch wrote: Newer refrigerants are quite inert, so explosion/fire issues aren't that big. The worst problem I can foresee would be if a unit vented the entire charge in a closed room, in which case you would have oxygen displacement. Walt On Dec 4, 2011 6:51 PM, Allan Streibstr...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: MGtrainpain2...@yahoo.com writes: still don't like the freon circulation. Why not? A heck of a lot easier to snake copper tubing through existing construction than to install ductwork. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I don't know anything about the specific product but I've never lived anywhere that didn't have oil heat which shared hw and heating duties... Actually, thats only mostly true, my grandmother's house has scorched air. I'll do my dammedest never to live anywhere with forced hot air. -Curt Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 22:26:51 -0600 From: Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT Message-ID: calk3cy5sm4jt-yqzrtnbvtnp_c7soqdn+vcshmmuvjmdeks...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Has anyone used the Amtrol BoilerMate heat exchanger for WH? Not for forced air house heat. For pumped hot water radiator house heat, a boiler zone is run to BoilerMate which is a heat exchanger for HW. Sounds reasonable, but... is it? Any experience? mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
my grandmother's house has scorched air. I'll do my dammedest never to live anywhere with forced hot air. I _love_ scorched air, esp. oil-heated scorched air. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I had considered doing that. I think that code requires conduit or BX cable from the heater up into the ceiling joists (floor joists for the main floor too) but I have not done that yet either. I may put a switch in if I do that as I will be re-wiring that part of the system. I don't think we are required to have a switch near the tank but it would be handy. The panel is within sight of the tank as my basement is unfinished and open without any partition walls at this time. I need to have the whole panel replaced with a bigger one and to move from 100 A to 200 A as I want more power in my garage too. Not going to attempt that by myself as it would need to be done fast and inspected and turned back on in one day. I might manage to do it in a week but not in a day by myself. Randy On 02/12/2011 4:57 PM, Rich Thomas wrote: You can run a 30A breaker box off the main panel -- run it off the 40A breaker you have (with #8 wire) then wire the WH right to the 30A-out in the box. Don't know about where you live, but code here requires a cutoff at the water heater electrical connection, so a small breaker box would do that well (as would just a big throw switch, but since you have the breaker issue...). The idea is that you can actually see the power is off before you fool with the heater. I had to replace my water heater right after I got hit by the truck while riding my bike. The thing died Sat night, after my ride Sunday morning I was going to Lowes to get a new one and put it in that afternoon. So instead I come home hurting like hell, to take a cold shower, ugh. I rested up the rest of the day and went and got the thing Mon morning after the doctor visit (and another cold shower), still hurting bad despite the drugs. Then the door in the closet was too small for the new higher-insulated unit to fit, so I had to tear out the door/framing to get a new door, reframe it all, put in the new door and trim Ended up being a 2-day job, Not Fun but the nice hot shower was very nice. --R On 12/2/11 5:35 PM, Randy Bennell wrote: The wire issue was something I stewed about for a bit. I have an oddball panel in the house. GE. So, it is somewhat difficult to come up with breakers. I had a spare set of 40 amp but not 25 or 30 which is what was called for. I thought I might just up the wire to #8 instead of #10 but that makes it much more difficult to work with. So after a bit of mucking about, an idea dawned on me. I just used the # 10 and borrowed the breakers for the AC as I will not need it in the near future. Long before spring I can get another pair of breakers. Menards in Grand Forks has them and I can get a set soon. ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Thanks Wilton. I actually enjoy things like that. Don't know that I want to do it every day but I do enjoy the challenge of doing things like this and believe that at the end of the day, I generally do them better than the trades folk just because I can take the time to do it my way and not have to cut corners to make money. Randy On 02/12/2011 5:46 PM, WILTON wrote: ATTABOY! Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:35 PM Subject: [MBZ] More OT - HWT How can you tell it is Friday afternoon? I had a fun week. Monday about 6 PM we discovered our hot water tank had sprung a leak. No flood as it is in the basement and on a concrete floor about 2 feet from the sump pump pit. However, it was leaking quite badly so it had to be fixed. My wife and I went out Monday evening looking at new tanks but did not get one. We went to 3 places. The first did not have the one I wanted in stock. The 2nd did not appear to have what I wanted and by the time we got to the 3rd place, they were more interested in closing than selling. So, I went back Tuesday morning and got a tank and some of the other odds and ends needed to swap. We changed from a 40 US Gallon gas fired tank to a 60 Imp gallon electric tank. The major reason to change was the idea that we will put in a new efficient furnace in the near future and disposing of the gas HWT will permit us to also remove the chimney (gas vent) so the house should be tighter etc. However that sort of thing comes with a cost. I had to cap off the gas and the vent from the HWT to the main vent that the furnace uses. Just replaced the pipe where it had been attached rather than patching it. Since the new tank is physically larger - electric does not recycle quite as fast so bigger is needed to maintain the hot water capacity - the plumbing had to be moved etc. These things are bulky and heavy so it is not an easy job to do. I got the old one loose, the gas capped and the vent changed on Tuesday afternoon as well as running out to get more supplies. My younger son came by on his way home from work and we carried the old one out and the new one in. Not easy to set into the hole behind the furnace as the water meter and the laundry tub make for a small opening. Got it in without hurting ourselves. Empty it weighs about 185# according to the box. I figure at 61.5 imperial gallons it must weigh about 800# full of water. Wednesday, I worked on the plumbing. Changed over the water feed line as the new one fills at the bottom and the old one filled from the top. Also pulled the drain valve and installed a stub and a T etc and more valves and a check valve as I intend to hook up a thermal siphon to provide faster hot water in the 2nd floor bath. Also ran out to get wire etc to feed from the panel over to the tank. That is another story that I will touch on in a minute. Did not get the plumbing finished until about 9:30 Wednesday night. Then did the wiring and finally finished up about 11:30 Wednesday night. Let me tell you I am more used to sitting in a chair all day than working like this. I was dead tired and then stiff and sore yesterday. Today is better. The wire issue was something I stewed about for a bit. I have an oddball panel in the house. GE. So, it is somewhat difficult to come up with breakers. I had a spare set of 40 amp but not 25 or 30 which is what was called for. I thought I might just up the wire to #8 instead of #10 but that makes it much more difficult to work with. So after a bit of mucking about, an idea dawned on me. I just used the # 10 and borrowed the breakers for the AC as I will not need it in the near future. Long before spring I can get another pair of breakers. Menards in Grand Forks has them and I can get a set soon. My wife wonders why I do things like this myself instead of just calling someone in to do it. I might have done so if it meant just swapping a similar tank as that would have been fast and easy. If I have to stand there and watch the tradesman, I might as well be doing it. Besides, I do a better job as I care about my house. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
On 03/12/2011 9:08 AM, Jim Cathey wrote: my grandmother's house has scorched air. I'll do my dammedest never to live anywhere with forced hot air. I _love_ scorched air, esp. oil-heated scorched air. -- Jim ___ The advantage as I see it to forced air heat, is the ducts also work for the cooled air come summer. I know folks with hot water heat and they have no reasonable means of installing AC except for the noisy window units. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I suggest you install a 200A main breaker between the meter and the panel, these usually are placed outside next to the meter. There are meter/breaker panels too but for some reason are more expensive. I presume the power line coming into your house (meter) is sufficient to handle 200A? With the main breaker, you can shut off the power to the existing panel, pop in another one, and put in your breakers and run your circuits to them. It can actually go pretty quickly if you have the ahead stuff organized -- have the power company come and pop the meter (or maybe an electrician can do that?) or shut off the power at the pole, put in/wire your main breaker next to the meter, then reconnect your panel line to the main breaker, put the meter back in, and you are good to go. That shouldn't take very long or cost too much. The concern is that your cables from the breaker to your panel are rated for 200A, you will probably need to get that in place before doing anything else. You can then take your time by just connecting up the circuits you need first (fridge, heater, GP circuits, whatever) then do the others as you have time (soon!). I would also suggest adding a second main breaker for your garage, and running to a new panel in the garage, say 100A or whatever you think you need. You might need to upgrade the lines coming in for that. Or you can just run 60A or so off your new 200A panel to the garage and put a subpanel out there with some breakers for various circuits. Sometimes running big cable off an existing panel is harder than running it around the house or burying it from an outside breaker. I am wiring up my addition now, have put in a new meter panel (supplied by the electric co-op), 2-200A main breakers outside next to it (one has a bunch of circuit breakers too, for any outside circuits I might want to add), one 200A panel in the addition with all new circuits, and a line to the existing panel which I will reconnect off the temp pole/meter/breaker I set up when I had to move the buried line. Once I free up some circuits on the existing panel I might redirect those to the garage too as I only have a couple of circuits out there, and they are insufficient. It is all pretty straightforward and can be done pretty quickly, and here the homeowner can do it if you pull the permit and then get the inspector to approve. I have my rough inspection (the inspector took about 2 min looking at my work and signed off, saying, You did a nice job!) and will start hooking stuff up soon. Copper is expensive now!!! This reminds me I need to go get my plumbing stuff... --R On 12/3/11 12:13 PM, Randy Bennell wrote: I had considered doing that. I think that code requires conduit or BX cable from the heater up into the ceiling joists (floor joists for the main floor too) but I have not done that yet either. I may put a switch in if I do that as I will be re-wiring that part of the system. I don't think we are required to have a switch near the tank but it would be handy. The panel is within sight of the tank as my basement is unfinished and open without any partition walls at this time. I need to have the whole panel replaced with a bigger one and to move from 100 A to 200 A as I want more power in my garage too. Not going to attempt that by myself as it would need to be done fast and inspected and turned back on in one day. I might manage to do it in a week but not in a day by myself. Randy On 02/12/2011 4:57 PM, Rich Thomas wrote: You can run a 30A breaker box off the main panel -- run it off the 40A breaker you have (with #8 wire) then wire the WH right to the 30A-out in the box. Don't know about where you live, but code here requires a cutoff at the water heater electrical connection, so a small breaker box would do that well (as would just a big throw switch, but since you have the breaker issue...). The idea is that you can actually see the power is off before you fool with the heater. I had to replace my water heater right after I got hit by the truck while riding my bike. The thing died Sat night, after my ride Sunday morning I was going to Lowes to get a new one and put it in that afternoon. So instead I come home hurting like hell, to take a cold shower, ugh. I rested up the rest of the day and went and got the thing Mon morning after the doctor visit (and another cold shower), still hurting bad despite the drugs. Then the door in the closet was too small for the new higher-insulated unit to fit, so I had to tear out the door/framing to get a new door, reframe it all, put in the new door and trim Ended up being a 2-day job, Not Fun but the nice hot shower was very nice. --R On 12/2/11 5:35 PM, Randy Bennell wrote: The wire issue was something I stewed about for a bit. I have an oddball panel in the house. GE. So, it is somewhat difficult to come up with breakers. I had a spare set of 40 amp but not 25 or 30
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
'Zackly! Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT Thanks Wilton. I actually enjoy things like that. Don't know that I want to do it every day but I do enjoy the challenge of doing things like this and believe that at the end of the day, I generally do them better than the trades folk just because I can take the time to do it my way and not have to cut corners to make money. Randy On 02/12/2011 5:46 PM, WILTON wrote: ATTABOY! Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:35 PM Subject: [MBZ] More OT - HWT How can you tell it is Friday afternoon? I had a fun week. Monday about 6 PM we discovered our hot water tank had sprung a leak. No flood as it is in the basement and on a concrete floor about 2 feet from the sump pump pit. However, it was leaking quite badly so it had to be fixed. My wife and I went out Monday evening looking at new tanks but did not get one. We went to 3 places. The first did not have the one I wanted in stock. The 2nd did not appear to have what I wanted and by the time we got to the 3rd place, they were more interested in closing than selling. So, I went back Tuesday morning and got a tank and some of the other odds and ends needed to swap. We changed from a 40 US Gallon gas fired tank to a 60 Imp gallon electric tank. The major reason to change was the idea that we will put in a new efficient furnace in the near future and disposing of the gas HWT will permit us to also remove the chimney (gas vent) so the house should be tighter etc. However that sort of thing comes with a cost. I had to cap off the gas and the vent from the HWT to the main vent that the furnace uses. Just replaced the pipe where it had been attached rather than patching it. Since the new tank is physically larger - electric does not recycle quite as fast so bigger is needed to maintain the hot water capacity - the plumbing had to be moved etc. These things are bulky and heavy so it is not an easy job to do. I got the old one loose, the gas capped and the vent changed on Tuesday afternoon as well as running out to get more supplies. My younger son came by on his way home from work and we carried the old one out and the new one in. Not easy to set into the hole behind the furnace as the water meter and the laundry tub make for a small opening. Got it in without hurting ourselves. Empty it weighs about 185# according to the box. I figure at 61.5 imperial gallons it must weigh about 800# full of water. Wednesday, I worked on the plumbing. Changed over the water feed line as the new one fills at the bottom and the old one filled from the top. Also pulled the drain valve and installed a stub and a T etc and more valves and a check valve as I intend to hook up a thermal siphon to provide faster hot water in the 2nd floor bath. Also ran out to get wire etc to feed from the panel over to the tank. That is another story that I will touch on in a minute. Did not get the plumbing finished until about 9:30 Wednesday night. Then did the wiring and finally finished up about 11:30 Wednesday night. Let me tell you I am more used to sitting in a chair all day than working like this. I was dead tired and then stiff and sore yesterday. Today is better. The wire issue was something I stewed about for a bit. I have an oddball panel in the house. GE. So, it is somewhat difficult to come up with breakers. I had a spare set of 40 amp but not 25 or 30 which is what was called for. I thought I might just up the wire to #8 instead of #10 but that makes it much more difficult to work with. So after a bit of mucking about, an idea dawned on me. I just used the # 10 and borrowed the breakers for the AC as I will not need it in the near future. Long before spring I can get another pair of breakers. Menards in Grand Forks has them and I can get a set soon. My wife wonders why I do things like this myself instead of just calling someone in to do it. I might have done so if it meant just swapping a similar tank as that would have been fast and easy. If I have to stand there and watch the tradesman, I might as well be doing it. Besides, I do a better job as I care about my house. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I have gas-fired circulating hot water heat to convectors beneath each window and three heat pumps, one for first floor, one for each half of second floor. AC was first installed in the house in '64; ductwork already in place when I installed heat pumps 'bout 10 years ago. Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT On 03/12/2011 9:08 AM, Jim Cathey wrote: my grandmother's house has scorched air. I'll do my dammedest never to live anywhere with forced hot air. I _love_ scorched air, esp. oil-heated scorched air. -- Jim ___ The advantage as I see it to forced air heat, is the ducts also work for the cooled air come summer. I know folks with hot water heat and they have no reasonable means of installing AC except for the noisy window units. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Thanks for your input. I like some of your ideas. I have wondered about putting in a main breaker and then some form of splitter box and running a couple of 100A panels off of it. That way, I could just leave my original panel in place and add another. I think the underground wire from the transformer at the lane to the meter socket is good for the 200A setup. I think even my existing meter socket is ok for 200A. We will have to verify that but I believe I was told that by some fellows who work for Hydro who came to the house a couple of years back to inspect when we had some repairs done to the basement wall on the side where the panel and gas meter are located. We are permitted to do our own electrical work here as well. Either the homeowner or a licenced electrician can pull a permit. My younger son has a friend who is almost finished his apprenticeship as an electrician and my elder son's girlfriend's father and brother are electricians so I have some folks I can seek opinions from at least. I have also found the elecrical inspector to be a useful resource but right now I would be reluctant to let them see my panel. I have the cover off and wires hanging out all over. That could be fixed I guess but I prefer to leave it alone until we do the upgrade if possible. I would just have to remove and label the unused wires. What has happened is that since I have run out of breaker spots, I have disconnected things not being used to provide spots for things we need. For example, when we added on to the house a number of years back, we put in 5 electric baseboard heaters in the addition on the main floor. We have never used them and I have disconnected the wiring in th panel and used the breakers for other purposes. I have not pulled the wires totally out of the panel so they are bent back away from the open part but that means I cannot put the cover on unless I remove them totally. There is no space in the panel to push the wires in easily. I also have a 2nd kitchen stove in the basement. When we got a new convection oven stove a few years back, our existing stove was good and worth nothing to sell so I put it in the basement and we have used it at Christmas time when we are cooking a lot of stuff at once. Unfortunately, I am planning to disconnect it for now in order to make space to install the breakers for the HWT that I just put in. I won't have to do that for a bit if I don't want to as I can leave the HWT on the breakers for the AC until spring but sooner or later it will need to be done unless we upgrade the panel before then and I will most likely wait until at least warmer weather before embarking on this endeavor. My garage is currently fed from the panel in the house via underground wire and a subpanel in the garage. It is only about 50 feet from the house so not too bad. It currently has 10/3 running out to the garage so 30A at 220V but that is not really sufficient. I can run the compressor or the welders or the planer, or some electric heat, but only one at a time. The compressor and welders are pushing the limits. I bought a big long chunk of Teck cable a couple of years back with the intention to use it to feed the garage but have not dug it in yet as there is little point until the panel in the house is bumped to 200A. I cannot recall what the Teck is at the moment but it will be at least #6 and maybe bigger than that. I also think it is 4 wire but I could be wrong. It was used cable that was removed form a commercial building that was being remodelled. It looks like new and I assume it had not been there for very long before it got removed. I have no where to connect to at the moment. I already have 2 sub panels and all of the original panel filled with 30A or 40A breakers so I am sort of pushing my limits. The one sub panel is only 8 breakers so I could put in a bigger one and both of the subs are fed by 40A breakers so I could switch to #6 and 50A breakers but sooner or later I am going to push too far. Time to upgrade! Randy On 03/12/2011 11:43 AM, Rich Thomas wrote: I suggest you install a 200A main breaker between the meter and the panel, these usually are placed outside next to the meter. There are meter/breaker panels too but for some reason are more expensive. I presume the power line coming into your house (meter) is sufficient to handle 200A? With the main breaker, you can shut off the power to the existing panel, pop in another one, and put in your breakers and run your circuits to them. It can actually go pretty quickly if you have the ahead stuff organized -- have the power company come and pop the meter (or maybe an electrician can do that?) or shut off the power at the pole, put in/wire your main breaker next to the meter, then reconnect your panel line to the main breaker, put the meter back in, and you are good to go. That shouldn't take very long or cost too much. The concern is that
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I was seriously interested in ground source heat pumps but unfortunately, I don't really have enough land to do it easily. They need to be able to drill about 40 to 50 holes about 10 feet apart on a grid unless they drill fewer holes much deeper. Deeper becomes more expensive and I really don't have a space big enough to drill that many holes. It would cost $20K or better to install but the cost of operation would be almost nil. Generally just the electricity to run the pumps and fans except perhaps in the coldest weather when electric backup might be required. If I were going to build a new home, I would certainly want that system. Randy On 03/12/2011 12:58 PM, WILTON wrote: I have gas-fired circulating hot water heat to convectors beneath each window and three heat pumps, one for first floor, one for each half of second floor. AC was first installed in the house in '64; ductwork already in place when I installed heat pumps 'bout 10 years ago. Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca On 03/12/2011 9:08 AM, Jim Cathey wrote: my grandmother's house has scorched air. I'll do my dammedest never to live anywhere with forced hot air. I _love_ scorched air, esp. oil-heated scorched air. -- Jim ___ The advantage as I see it to forced air heat, is the ducts also work for the cooled air come summer. I know folks with hot water heat and they have no reasonable means of installing AC except for the noisy window units. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I'm very fond of ground source heat/cooling systems, too. Better to transfer heat from/to constant (or nearly so) ground or water than air that's often too hot or too cold. BTW, what's the constant ground (below frost line) temp there, 'bout 55F? Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT I was seriously interested in ground source heat pumps but unfortunately, I don't really have enough land to do it easily. They need to be able to drill about 40 to 50 holes about 10 feet apart on a grid unless they drill fewer holes much deeper. Deeper becomes more expensive and I really don't have a space big enough to drill that many holes. It would cost $20K or better to install but the cost of operation would be almost nil. Generally just the electricity to run the pumps and fans except perhaps in the coldest weather when electric backup might be required. If I were going to build a new home, I would certainly want that system. Randy On 03/12/2011 12:58 PM, WILTON wrote: I have gas-fired circulating hot water heat to convectors beneath each window and three heat pumps, one for first floor, one for each half of second floor. AC was first installed in the house in '64; ductwork already in place when I installed heat pumps 'bout 10 years ago. Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca On 03/12/2011 9:08 AM, Jim Cathey wrote: my grandmother's house has scorched air. I'll do my dammedest never to live anywhere with forced hot air. I _love_ scorched air, esp. oil-heated scorched air. -- Jim ___ The advantage as I see it to forced air heat, is the ducts also work for the cooled air come summer. I know folks with hot water heat and they have no reasonable means of installing AC except for the noisy window units. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
If you ever want a standby generator, subpanels are the way to go. Put all the critical stuff on one subpanel and then you can use an automatic transfer switch for that panel. The 100 amp transfer switches won't break the bank (the 200 amp switches will). A 200 amp service entrance is pretty-much standard so that's probably what you have. The main panel should have the capacity marked. Scott -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Randy Bennell Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 2:20 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT Thanks for your input. I like some of your ideas. I have wondered about putting in a main breaker and then some form of splitter box and running a couple of 100A panels off of it. That way, I could just leave my original panel in place and add another. I think the underground wire from the transformer at the lane to the meter socket is good for the 200A setup. I think even my existing meter socket is ok for 200A. We will have to verify that but I believe I was told that by some fellows who work for Hydro who came to the house a couple of years back to inspect when we had some repairs done to the basement wall on the side where the panel and gas meter are located. We are permitted to do our own electrical work here as well. Either the homeowner or a licenced electrician can pull a permit. My younger son has a friend who is almost finished his apprenticeship as an electrician and my elder son's girlfriend's father and brother are electricians so I have some folks I can seek opinions from at least. I have also found the elecrical inspector to be a useful resource but right now I would be reluctant to let them see my panel. I have the cover off and wires hanging out all over. That could be fixed I guess but I prefer to leave it alone until we do the upgrade if possible. I would just have to remove and label the unused wires. What has happened is that since I have run out of breaker spots, I have disconnected things not being used to provide spots for things we need. For example, when we added on to the house a number of years back, we put in 5 electric baseboard heaters in the addition on the main floor. We have never used them and I have disconnected the wiring in th panel and used the breakers for other purposes. I have not pulled the wires totally out of the panel so they are bent back away from the open part but that means I cannot put the cover on unless I remove them totally. There is no space in the panel to push the wires in easily. I also have a 2nd kitchen stove in the basement. When we got a new convection oven stove a few years back, our existing stove was good and worth nothing to sell so I put it in the basement and we have used it at Christmas time when we are cooking a lot of stuff at once. Unfortunately, I am planning to disconnect it for now in order to make space to install the breakers for the HWT that I just put in. I won't have to do that for a bit if I don't want to as I can leave the HWT on the breakers for the AC until spring but sooner or later it will need to be done unless we upgrade the panel before then and I will most likely wait until at least warmer weather before embarking on this endeavor. My garage is currently fed from the panel in the house via underground wire and a subpanel in the garage. It is only about 50 feet from the house so not too bad. It currently has 10/3 running out to the garage so 30A at 220V but that is not really sufficient. I can run the compressor or the welders or the planer, or some electric heat, but only one at a time. The compressor and welders are pushing the limits. I bought a big long chunk of Teck cable a couple of years back with the intention to use it to feed the garage but have not dug it in yet as there is little point until the panel in the house is bumped to 200A. I cannot recall what the Teck is at the moment but it will be at least #6 and maybe bigger than that. I also think it is 4 wire but I could be wrong. It was used cable that was removed form a commercial building that was being remodelled. It looks like new and I assume it had not been there for very long before it got removed. I have no where to connect to at the moment. I already have 2 sub panels and all of the original panel filled with 30A or 40A breakers so I am sort of pushing my limits. The one sub panel is only 8 breakers so I could put in a bigger one and both of the subs are fed by 40A breakers so I could switch to #6 and 50A breakers but sooner or later I am going to push too far. Time to upgrade! Randy On 03/12/2011 11:43 AM, Rich Thomas wrote: I suggest you install a 200A main breaker between the meter and the panel, these usually are placed outside next to the meter. There are meter/breaker panels too but for some reason are more expensive. I presume the power line
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 14:34:21 -0500 WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: I'm very fond of ground source heat/cooling systems, too. Better to transfer heat from/to constant (or nearly so) ground or water than air that's often too hot or too cold. BTW, what's the constant ground (below frost line) temp there, 'bout 55F? I don't know what it is in Canada, but I recall it's about 43F in Colorado. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
You can do that but you have to mind the cable sizes and have breakers in the panels so that you don't overload the cable from the main breaker. You could feed 2-100A panels off a 200A main breaker, but each panel would need its own 100A breaker, sorta like feeding a 30A circuit off a 200A panel, you need that 30A breaker in there so it does not pull a full 200A. You can get a thingie (not sure what it is called) that will screw onto the post off the load side of the 200A breaker, then turns into two holes to slide your two panel feed cables into. Some breaker panels have those two connections provided,. I got some of those adapters to put on the load terminals of the meter panel to feed my 2-200A panels. Interesting, when I submitted my electrical plan, one of the guys in the inspection office said I had made an error. A 400A meter is really a 320A meter, so he was concerned that 2x200A breakers/panels would overload it. Not so, as the 200A breakers are rated at 80% ( 160A) to trip, so that even if both breakers/panels were drawing full load they would trip at 160A, keeping them in the 320A meter limit. Here are some pics: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7InQXxhJqg8/TfKWVSMCJoI/AjU/YW1BCciTyIY/s1600/DSC_0365.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IpbfZVsaA5E/TfKWWOamvjI/AjY/GsZapWeaseM/s1600/DSC_0366.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BubiliYBoPU/TfKWWiaT2HI/Ajc/eZhdydDNCnk/s1600/DSC_0367.jpg There are some interesting aspects to the electrical code once you dig into it, but most of it is pretty logical. I am sure your code is similar to the US National Electrical Code (which most all jurisdictions adopt), I found some used books on Amazon for cheap that detail it all -- sorta NEC for Dummies but oriented to field electricians and training/reference. Same for plumbing... --R On 12/3/11 2:19 PM, Randy Bennell wrote: I have wondered about putting in a main breaker and then some form of splitter box and running a couple of 100A panels off of it. That way, I could just leave my original panel in place and add another. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca writes: The advantage as I see it to forced air heat, is the ducts also work for the cooled air come summer. I know folks with hot water heat and they have no reasonable means of installing AC except for the noisy window units. If you have a one-story house, you can install insulated ducts in the attic and have ceiling registers for the AC, which is ideal. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Scott and Gwen Ritchey wrote: A 200 amp service entrance is pretty-much standard so that's probably what you have. Standard as of when? Not everyone lives in a 15 year old house. -- Philip, in a house that was old when it was electrified. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 18:57:22 -0600 Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: Scott and Gwen Ritchey wrote: A 200 amp service entrance is pretty-much standard so that's probably what you have. Standard as of when? Not everyone lives in a 15 year old house. -- Philip, in a house that was old when it was electrified. Our house was built in 1959 with a 60 Amp service. We upgraged it this summer to 200 Amps. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Our wall unit (a window type mounted in the wall) is mounted quite high in the wall of the living room and works very well. We have ceiling fans in every room which helps. The apartment we lived in previously had a wall mount but it was right at the bottom of the wall in the living room and was a bastard. Had to put a fan in front of it set to blow air upward to get some circulation. No ceiling fans there though. -Curt Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 19:07:11 -0500 From: Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT Message-ID: m17h2dqjww@cs.indiana.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca writes: The advantage as I see it to forced air heat, is the ducts also work for the cooled air come summer. I know folks with hot water heat and they have no reasonable means of installing AC except for the noisy window units. If you have a one-story house, you can install insulated ducts in the attic and have ceiling registers for the AC, which is ideal. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
I remember researching a way to use chilled water circulating in a fan driven radiator system that would supply air conditioning to each room with individual thermostats in each room. Wish I could get a system like that put into my house but no AC company around here knows anything about it or is even willing to research it. A system like that would easily lend itself to being put into an older house like that. I believe the University of Alabama used something like this in some of their old dorms quite a few years ago. For all I know it is still in place. I seem to recall that the fans were even driven by the water flowing through the pipes so as the thermostat set slowed the flow of water through the radiator in the room the fan also automatically ran slower. Manfred Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 11:19:11 -0600 From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca Subject: Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT ___ The advantage as I see it to forced air heat, is the ducts also work for the cooled air come summer. I know folks with hot water heat and they have no reasonable means of installing AC except for the noisy window units. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
MG trainpain2...@yahoo.com writes: I remember researching a way to use chilled water circulating in a fan driven radiator system that would supply air conditioning to each room with individual thermostats in each room. Wish I could get a system like that put into my house but no AC company around here knows anything about it or is even willing to research it. There is a system called a mini-split or multi-split that sounds like what you are describing. It doesnt work with your radiators but it's an installed outdoor unit connected to one or more interior units. I believe they can work in AC and/or heating modes. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
You can run a 30A breaker box off the main panel -- run it off the 40A breaker you have (with #8 wire) then wire the WH right to the 30A-out in the box. Don't know about where you live, but code here requires a cutoff at the water heater electrical connection, so a small breaker box would do that well (as would just a big throw switch, but since you have the breaker issue...). The idea is that you can actually see the power is off before you fool with the heater. I had to replace my water heater right after I got hit by the truck while riding my bike. The thing died Sat night, after my ride Sunday morning I was going to Lowes to get a new one and put it in that afternoon. So instead I come home hurting like hell, to take a cold shower, ugh. I rested up the rest of the day and went and got the thing Mon morning after the doctor visit (and another cold shower), still hurting bad despite the drugs. Then the door in the closet was too small for the new higher-insulated unit to fit, so I had to tear out the door/framing to get a new door, reframe it all, put in the new door and trim Ended up being a 2-day job, Not Fun but the nice hot shower was very nice. --R On 12/2/11 5:35 PM, Randy Bennell wrote: The wire issue was something I stewed about for a bit. I have an oddball panel in the house. GE. So, it is somewhat difficult to come up with breakers. I had a spare set of 40 amp but not 25 or 30 which is what was called for. I thought I might just up the wire to #8 instead of #10 but that makes it much more difficult to work with. So after a bit of mucking about, an idea dawned on me. I just used the # 10 and borrowed the breakers for the AC as I will not need it in the near future. Long before spring I can get another pair of breakers. Menards in Grand Forks has them and I can get a set soon. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
ATTABOY! Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:35 PM Subject: [MBZ] More OT - HWT How can you tell it is Friday afternoon? I had a fun week. Monday about 6 PM we discovered our hot water tank had sprung a leak. No flood as it is in the basement and on a concrete floor about 2 feet from the sump pump pit. However, it was leaking quite badly so it had to be fixed. My wife and I went out Monday evening looking at new tanks but did not get one. We went to 3 places. The first did not have the one I wanted in stock. The 2nd did not appear to have what I wanted and by the time we got to the 3rd place, they were more interested in closing than selling. So, I went back Tuesday morning and got a tank and some of the other odds and ends needed to swap. We changed from a 40 US Gallon gas fired tank to a 60 Imp gallon electric tank. The major reason to change was the idea that we will put in a new efficient furnace in the near future and disposing of the gas HWT will permit us to also remove the chimney (gas vent) so the house should be tighter etc. However that sort of thing comes with a cost. I had to cap off the gas and the vent from the HWT to the main vent that the furnace uses. Just replaced the pipe where it had been attached rather than patching it. Since the new tank is physically larger - electric does not recycle quite as fast so bigger is needed to maintain the hot water capacity - the plumbing had to be moved etc. These things are bulky and heavy so it is not an easy job to do. I got the old one loose, the gas capped and the vent changed on Tuesday afternoon as well as running out to get more supplies. My younger son came by on his way home from work and we carried the old one out and the new one in. Not easy to set into the hole behind the furnace as the water meter and the laundry tub make for a small opening. Got it in without hurting ourselves. Empty it weighs about 185# according to the box. I figure at 61.5 imperial gallons it must weigh about 800# full of water. Wednesday, I worked on the plumbing. Changed over the water feed line as the new one fills at the bottom and the old one filled from the top. Also pulled the drain valve and installed a stub and a T etc and more valves and a check valve as I intend to hook up a thermal siphon to provide faster hot water in the 2nd floor bath. Also ran out to get wire etc to feed from the panel over to the tank. That is another story that I will touch on in a minute. Did not get the plumbing finished until about 9:30 Wednesday night. Then did the wiring and finally finished up about 11:30 Wednesday night. Let me tell you I am more used to sitting in a chair all day than working like this. I was dead tired and then stiff and sore yesterday. Today is better. The wire issue was something I stewed about for a bit. I have an oddball panel in the house. GE. So, it is somewhat difficult to come up with breakers. I had a spare set of 40 amp but not 25 or 30 which is what was called for. I thought I might just up the wire to #8 instead of #10 but that makes it much more difficult to work with. So after a bit of mucking about, an idea dawned on me. I just used the # 10 and borrowed the breakers for the AC as I will not need it in the near future. Long before spring I can get another pair of breakers. Menards in Grand Forks has them and I can get a set soon. My wife wonders why I do things like this myself instead of just calling someone in to do it. I might have done so if it meant just swapping a similar tank as that would have been fast and easy. If I have to stand there and watch the tradesman, I might as well be doing it. Besides, I do a better job as I care about my house. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] More OT - HWT
Has anyone used the Amtrol BoilerMate heat exchanger for WH? Not for forced air house heat. For pumped hot water radiator house heat, a boiler zone is run to BoilerMate which is a heat exchanger for HW. Sounds reasonable, but... is it? Any experience? mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
