Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
Most modern high-end cell phones are good enough, but don't have a tripod socket. Most modern compact digital cameras have decent video options as well...Canon, Pentax, Panasonic and some others too. Greg -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rick Knoble Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:27 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera Hey Curt (or ?), What is a good reasonable digital video camera for posting YouTube videos? I was thinking GoPro, but I dislike the fisheye (wide angle) lens. I was going to start videoing MB repairs and posting them (MB content). Rick Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
I have seen a lot of good quality Utube type stuff done with an Iphone or ipod. There are tripod adapters for both. First time I saw an ipad on a tripod, i did a triple take. Never occurred to me to use one like a camera on a tripod. It was recording video for a TV station. I think it was several hours worth, but might have been only 30-60 min, that I saw it there. It was going when i saw it, and still recording when I left probably close to an hour later. This is a real HD Video camera. Only $145. Only problem with the JVC is they record everything in a format that has to be converted before you can use it. .mov These were over $500 a few years ago. https://www.evertek.com/viewpart.asp?auto=86290&cat=CAM&cpc=CAMbsc Doesn't matter all that much, most anything will make it. Lately I've used Angie's Canon point and shoot, you can see the result here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4nl-RiKisE I tried to make that video with the GoPro but the audio was terrible. I've got another video I just finished shooting on cleaning the points on my Polaris snowmobile, the Canon got the nod there too because it is threaded for a tripod. I need to test and see if my Fuji shoots HD, if it does I'll stop stealing Angie's camera, although hers uses an SD card which my Mac has a slot for which is mighty handy. My tape based camera has been sitting around for months. I may have to get a more serious solid state video camera if I do some pro level work but... A lot of stuff you see on TV is shot with DSLR which I think is a tragic waste of a camera. Meaning the camera is being way under-utilized. -Curt Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:27:18 -0600 From: Rick Knoble To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey Curt (or ?), What is a good reasonable digital video camera for posting YouTube videos? I was thinking GoPro, but I dislike the fisheye (wide angle) lens. I was going to start videoing MB repairs and posting them (MB content). Rick ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
You just need something that'll play AVCHD, Media Composer will (shameless plug) as would Pinnacle Studio. I don't know whats happened with Studio since Corel bought Pinnacle from Avid though. If anybody wants a copy of Studio (version 14 I think) I've got one, in box, don't think I ever even opened it. -Curt Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 21:02:14 -0600 From: Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This is a real HD Video camera. Only $145. Only problem with the JVC is they record everything in a format that has to be converted before you can use it. .mov These were over $500 a few years ago. https://www.evertek.com/viewpart.asp?auto=86290&cat=CAM&cpc=CAMbsc ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
> Rick wrote: > > What is a good reasonable digital video camera for posting > YouTube videos? I was thinking GoPro, but I dislike the fisheye > (wide angle) lens. I was going to start videoing MB repairs and > posting them (MB content). It almost hard to find a camera with poor video. And - in my opinion - the best way to make a video look good is improve the audio. With that in mind, I would insist on a camera with a mic jack. Unless you plan to narrate the entire thing during post production (editing). A tripod is pretty important too. If you plan to pan/tilt the camera while the "tape" is running, plan to get a video tripod. If it won't move, any tripod that will hold the camera still should be fine. And at least a couple lights - video lights could be nice, but even just a couple matching lamps in droplights or those spun aluminum reflector cone things. Our eyes are much more forgiving of poor light than the camera. I think the situation has improved, but a few years ago there was often trouble with incompatible codecs between the solidstate record cameras and the edit software. May still be worth checking. I'm quite please with the service and feature set of the various Canon still and video cameras I have owned and used. That's where I would start. *smiles* -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
When shooting outdoors in the daytime lights are usually not required, a bounce card (think cardboard covered with aluminum foil) might be useful in some cases to bounce some more light onto a specific spot but again usually not required. Indoors I've had decent luck with a halogen work light, throws a ton of light for little money. Some kits come with stands and hooks and whatnot. I've also had decent luck with just a compact fluorescent in a clamp on worklight. Today's cameras can white balance on the fly so you don't end up looking green like you would have in the old days. But yeah, the two biggest complaints I have about Youtube stuff is audio and lighting, especially audio... -Curt Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 01:28:52 -0600 From: Fmiser To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera Message-ID: <20140126012852.2da20...@jasper.condray.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It almost hard to find a camera with poor video. And - in my opinion - the best way to make a video look good is improve the audio. With that in mind, I would insist on a camera with a mic jack. Unless you plan to narrate the entire thing during post production (editing). A tripod is pretty important too. If you plan to pan/tilt the camera while the "tape" is running, plan to get a video tripod. If it won't move, any tripod that will hold the camera still should be fine. And at least a couple lights - video lights could be nice, but even just a couple matching lamps in droplights or those spun aluminum reflector cone things. Our eyes are much more forgiving of poor light than the camera. I think the situation has improved, but a few years ago there was often trouble with incompatible codecs between the solidstate record cameras and the edit software. May still be worth checking. I'm quite please with the service and feature set of the various Canon still and video cameras I have owned and used. That's where I would start. *smiles* -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
While the newest video camera I have is a 3 CCD Panasonic standard def, the one thing that has made the results from it as professional as possible is the RODE shotgun mic I use with it. If you buy an external microphone for a video camera and you're a prosumer, the RODE is probably the best bang for your buck. http://www.rodemic.com/mics/videomic Dan Sent from my iPad On Jan 26, 2014, at 2:28 AM, Fmiser wrote: >> Rick wrote: >> >> What is a good reasonable digital video camera for posting >> YouTube videos? I was thinking GoPro, but I dislike the fisheye >> (wide angle) lens. I was going to start videoing MB repairs and >> posting them (MB content). > > It almost hard to find a camera with poor video. And - in my > opinion - the best way to make a video look good is improve the > audio. With that in mind, I would insist on a camera with a mic > jack. Unless you plan to narrate the entire thing during post > production (editing). > > A tripod is pretty important too. If you plan to pan/tilt the > camera while the "tape" is running, plan to get a video tripod. If > it won't move, any tripod that will hold the camera still should be > fine. > > And at least a couple lights - video lights could be nice, but even > just a couple matching lamps in droplights or those spun aluminum > reflector cone things. Our eyes are much more forgiving of poor > light than the camera. > > I think the situation has improved, but a few years ago there was > often trouble with incompatible codecs between the solidstate > record cameras and the edit software. May still be worth checking. > > I'm quite please with the service and feature set of the various > Canon still and video cameras I have owned and used. That's where > I would start. *smiles* > > -- Philip > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
If you can score a few outdated pro cameras that would allow you to use older tech to process video and edit. The local Goodwill puts stuff on fleabay that goes for very reasonable fees. Toss them on tripods for steady shots and multiple angles. I really hate the jiggly cam shots on videos. Way too much glare, flaring, juddering, fast pans and poor audio. GoPro is best suited to bouncing boobs, slow motion sports shots and artsy stuff clay On Jan 25, 2014, at 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble wrote: > Hey Curt (or ?), > > What is a good reasonable digital video camera for posting YouTube videos? I > was thinking GoPro, but I dislike the fisheye (wide angle) lens. I was going > to start videoing MB repairs and posting them (MB content). > > Rick > Sent from my iPhone > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
The handheld stuff on TV and in movies today seems like more of a distraction than an enhancement. I don't like it for the most part. After all, that's what we have Garrett Brown for, right? Dan > On Jan 27, 2014, at 1:50 PM, clay wrote: > > If you can score a few outdated pro cameras that would allow you to use older > tech to process video and edit. The local Goodwill puts stuff on fleabay > that goes for very reasonable fees. Toss them on tripods for steady shots > and multiple angles. > > I really hate the jiggly cam shots on videos. Way too much glare, flaring, > juddering, fast pans and poor audio. GoPro is best suited to bouncing boobs, > slow motion sports shots and artsy stuff > > clay > > > >> On Jan 25, 2014, at 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble wrote: >> >> Hey Curt (or ?), >> >> What is a good reasonable digital video camera for posting YouTube videos? I >> was thinking GoPro, but I dislike the fisheye (wide angle) lens. I was going >> to start videoing MB repairs and posting them (MB content). >> >> Rick >> Sent from my iPhone >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
I got a new camcorder last year (- Dec 2012) and quite like it. It is a Canon (my 3rd Canon Video Camera over the past 30 years) and I cannot recall the model number but it does not matter as they don't make it anymore in any event. My b in l decided he wanted one like it and found that they had run out of stock and there would be no more. I think there is a new and improved version now. It is sort of a middle of the road model. Not the cheapest but not made of gold either. I read reviews online and decided that the lowest price ones were not very satisfactory to most folks. The one thing that it does that I appreciate is work fairly well in low light situations. It has a bunch of bells and whistles that I will never likely use so those were not worth paying more for but the low light issue was in my opinion. The stabilizer works fairly well and it is not too bad to watch later if one walks about with the camera and tries to hold it steady. The cameras have become smaller and lighter without the tape drive etc and I don't know as though that makes them easier to hold steady. I agree that I would like to get a microphone for it as the built in one is somewhat lacking. I just bought a 2nd battery and the charger for it and that cost an arm and a leg so the microphone will be next. I also agree that fast pans are bad new. I found when I got home from Hawaii and sorted out the video that I was in too much of a hurry when panning the camera. That and going to or from telephoto shots too quickly. Slow and smooth is much easier to watch. I think when we are there and filming ( bad word now I suppose) we tend to gloss over things that are obvious. So, stand on the balcony of your room (lanai?) at the Royal Kona Resort and take some video of the shoreline from the hotel around to the point and maybe continue on to some of the boats at anchor and there is a tendancy to rush because you have been looking at it for days and it has become familiar. Get back home and look at it some time later when it has faded from memory somewhat, or try to show it to someone else, and you start wondering, "why was I in such a hurry?" I really need to use the thing more as you really do learn by doing with them if you are paying any attention at all. Randy On 27/01/2014 12:50 PM, clay wrote: If you can score a few outdated pro cameras that would allow you to use older tech to process video and edit. The local Goodwill puts stuff on fleabay that goes for very reasonable fees. Toss them on tripods for steady shots and multiple angles. I really hate the jiggly cam shots on videos. Way too much glare, flaring, juddering, fast pans and poor audio. GoPro is best suited to bouncing boobs, slow motion sports shots and artsy stuff clay On Jan 25, 2014, at 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble wrote: Hey Curt (or ?), What is a good reasonable digital video camera for posting YouTube videos? I was thinking GoPro, but I dislike the fisheye (wide angle) lens. I was going to start videoing MB repairs and posting them (MB content). Rick ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
<< If you can score a few outdated pro cameras...>> Examples please? Greg -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of clay Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 10:50 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera If you can score a few outdated pro cameras that would allow you to use older tech to process video and edit. The local Goodwill puts stuff on fleabay that goes for very reasonable fees. Toss them on tripods for steady shots and multiple angles. I really hate the jiggly cam shots on videos. Way too much glare, flaring, juddering, fast pans and poor audio. GoPro is best suited to bouncing boobs, slow motion sports shots and artsy stuff clay On Jan 25, 2014, at 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble wrote: > Hey Curt (or ?), > > What is a good reasonable digital video camera for posting YouTube videos? I was thinking GoPro, but I dislike the fisheye (wide angle) lens. I was going to start videoing MB repairs and posting them (MB content). > > Rick > Sent from my iPhone > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
I've tried this game before, pro gear will be beat. Somebody who spends $3,000 on a camera works it to death. Back when I first got out of school I tried buying a couple but they didn't last good. If you're okay with SD look for a Sony VX-1000 or VX-2000 or Canon XL-1 or XL-2 or (I think) GL-1. My preference is the Sony, I've used both and the Sony is handier. For HD the Canon is the XL-h1, Sony would be FX-1 or another one which model number escapes me now. I've got a JVC thats a good camera too but the Sony is way better. I've got a little Sony to, HC3 maybe? I've used it for all my lantern videos, its very handy and has surprisingly good glass. I think I paid $800 new for the little Sony, and $3000 for the VX-2000. I got the VX-2000 10 years ago, its earned its living but hasn't worked all that hard. If you could find one like mine it'd be a good deal but I wouldn't let mine go for less than a grand which is to say I don't particularly want to sell it... -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 12:13:02 -0800 From: "Greg Fiorentino" To: "'Mercedes Discussion List'" Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera Message-ID: <007901cf1b9c$2f67e5a0$8e37b0e0$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" << If you can score a few outdated pro cameras...>> Examples please? Greg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
Really depends upon phase of the moon and whose girl friend got peeved and tossed all his stuff out of her apartment, what shows up. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-LX2-10-2MP-Digital-Camera-w-Batteries-Charger-/400650601070?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d48a3026e http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMBICO-Video-V-0312-Telephoto-1-5x-Converter-w-49-58-Stepping-Ring-and-Case-/400650856564?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d48a6e874 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-M-DSLR-A100-/310852693696?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item486043aec0 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-DVX100-Digital-Video-Camera-Recorder-Lecia-Lens-/400653313239?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Cameras&hash=item5d48cc64d7 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Realistic-Stereo-Microphone-w-Stand-12A6-/400653509441?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Microphones&hash=item5d48cf6341 clay 2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored chap 1974 450sl - Frosch - Two tone green 1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran 1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers On Jan 27, 2014, at 12:13 PM, Greg Fiorentino wrote: > << If you can score a few outdated pro cameras...>> > > Examples please? > > Greg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
Apparently the current version of the Sony FX-1 is the "Sony HDRFX1000 High Definition MiniDV Handycam Camcorder" which is "only" $3,200 at Amazon now. Perhaps a bit more than I am going to spend . . . On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > I've tried this game before, pro gear will be beat. Somebody who spends > $3,000 on a camera works it to death. Back when I first got out of school I > tried buying a couple but they didn't last good. > > > For HD the Canon is the XL-h1, Sony would be FX-1 or another one which > model number escapes me now. > -Curt > -- OK Don "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin 1775 "in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." - Benjamin Franklin 1789 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
> Greg wrote: > > << If you can score a few outdated pro cameras...>> > > Examples please? Canon GL2 is one of my favorite SD, mini-DV (tape) camcorders. I personally think the XL1 and XL2, though higher priced and longer featured have little value unless interchangeable lenses is important. The Canon XH-AS1 is positioned at a similar market as the GL2, but HD. I haven't liked any of the little JVC camcorders. --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
To quote an old news photographer (still and moving), "Motion should be captured by the camera, not created by it!" On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Randy Bennell wrote: > > I also agree that fast pans are bad new. I found when I got home from > Hawaii and sorted out the video that I was in too much of a hurry when > panning the camera. That and going to or from telephoto shots too quickly. > Slow and smooth is much easier to watch. I think when we are there and > filming ( bad word now I suppose) we tend to gloss over things that are > obvious. So, stand on the balcony of your room (lanai?) at the Royal Kona > Resort and take some video of the shoreline from the hotel around to the > point and maybe continue on to some of the boats at anchor and there is a > tendancy to rush because you have been looking at it for days and it has > become familiar. Get back home and look at it some time later when it has > faded from memory somewhat, or try to show it to someone else, and you > start wondering, "why was I in such a hurry?" > > I really need to use the thing more as you really do learn by doing with > them if you are paying any attention at all. > > Randy > >> >> I really hate the jiggly cam shots on videos. Way too much glare, >> flaring, juddering, fast pans and poor audio. GoPro is best suited to >> bouncing boobs, slow motion sports shots and artsy stuff >> >> clay >> >>> >>> -- OK Don "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin 1775 "in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." - Benjamin Franklin 1789 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
The DVX100 is the only one there worth having. The microphone and Lumix are low end consumer stuff. -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:38:47 -0800 From: clay To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Really depends upon phase of the moon and whose girl friend got peeved and tossed all his stuff out of her apartment, what shows up. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-LX2-10-2MP-Digital-Camera-w-Batteries-Charger-/400650601070?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d48a3026e http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMBICO-Video-V-0312-Telephoto-1-5x-Converter-w-49-58-Stepping-Ring-and-Case-/400650856564?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d48a6e874 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-M-DSLR-A100-/310852693696?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item486043aec0 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-DVX100-Digital-Video-Camera-Recorder-Lecia-Lens-/400653313239?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Cameras&hash=item5d48cc64d7 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Realistic-Stereo-Microphone-w-Stand-12A6-/400653509441?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Microphones&hash=item5d48cf6341 clay 2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored chap 1974 450sl - Frosch - Two tone green 1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran 1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
And remember thats the low end prosumer camera. If money was know problem I'd have one of these: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-xdcam/cat-broadcastcameras/product-PMW160/ Huge chips, microphone mount, XDCAM solid state recording which works directly in Media Composer, super duper. -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:54:06 -0600 From: OK Don To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Apparently the current version of the Sony FX-1 is the "Sony HDRFX1000 High Definition MiniDV Handycam Camcorder" which is "only" $3,200 at Amazon now. Perhaps a bit more than I am going to spend . . . On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > I've tried this game before, pro gear will be beat. Somebody who spends > $3,000 on a camera works it to death. Back when I first got out of school I > tried buying a couple but they didn't last good. > > > For HD the Canon is the XL-h1, Sony would be FX-1 or another one which > model number escapes me now. > -Curt > -- OK Don "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin 1775 "in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." - Benjamin Franklin 1789 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera
Ahh right, GL2, I think I said GL1, I meant GL2 though. I like that one nearly as good as the VX-2000, slight nod to the Sony for ergonomics, maybe a tip of the hat to Canon for better glass. If I remember correctly the GL2 won awards for its lens... -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:54:26 -0600 From: Fmiser To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera Message-ID: <20140127165426.4e6ce...@jasper.condray.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Greg wrote: > > << If you can score a few outdated pro cameras...>> > > Examples please? Canon GL2 is one of my favorite SD, mini-DV (tape) camcorders. I personally think the XL1 and XL2, though higher priced and longer featured have little value unless interchangeable lenses is important. The Canon XH-AS1 is positioned at a similar market as the GL2, but HD. I haven't liked any of the little JVC camcorders. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
Luther, I've been lusting after the Samsung Duo-Cam, for several reasons. Best street price I've found is around $479. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1682930,00.asp Jerry Ö¿Ö ~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luther Gulseth Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes mailing list Subject: [MBZ] OT-video camera I'm in the market for a good digital video camera. I don't want to break a budget, but would like a good quality camera, reliable, still shot feature, firewire output. What are good brands/models to look at? TIA all. -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (happily running WVO/diesel mix) '82 300CD (Slate grey, black MBTex, WVO/D mix) '82 300D '90 300E (both parts or can run??) ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
The best color is Sony followed by Panasonic . hope you are looking at HD, if not it's a wast of money HD 1080i format will show quality just under a 16 mm movie camera with color like Star War and beyond . enough to display a trillion colors http://www.camcorderinfo.com is a good place to start pay close attention to the color bar test .and see the color difference between each model poor color will look like your non-HD tv of today .. Bill 1981 300 TD Gerald R. Flintrop wrote: Luther, I've been lusting after the Samsung Duo-Cam, for several reasons. Best street price I've found is around $479. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1682930,00.asp Jerry Ö¿Ö ~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luther Gulseth Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes mailing list Subject: [MBZ] OT-video camera I'm in the market for a good digital video camera. I don't want to break a budget, but would like a good quality camera, reliable, still shot feature, firewire output. What are good brands/models to look at? TIA all.
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
I have the Sony HC-21 Handycam and it works great. With an extra battery and some tapes it was about $500. I compared ease of use(touch screen and small size), price and mostly the quality of the lens and the power of the zoom. The Sony excelled in all of them. My $.02, Mike - Original Message - From: "Luther Gulseth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mercedes mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: [MBZ] OT-video camera I'm in the market for a good digital video camera. I don't want to break a budget, but would like a good quality camera, reliable, still shot feature, firewire output. What are good brands/models to look at? TIA all. -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (happily running WVO/diesel mix) '82 300CD (Slate grey, black MBTex, WVO/D mix) '82 300D '90 300E (both parts or can run??) ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
I picked up a HP Photosmart that takes exellent pictures and comes with a docking station that links up with a HP printer. The whole package was under $300 "Mike Canfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I have the Sony HC-21 Handycam and it works great. With an extra battery >and some tapes it was about $500. I compared ease of use(touch screen and >small size), price and mostly the quality of the lens and the power of the >zoom. The Sony excelled in all of them. My $.02, Mike >- Original Message - >From: "Luther Gulseth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mercedes mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 2:49 PM >Subject: [MBZ] OT-video camera > > >> I'm in the market for a good digital video camera. I don't want to break >> a budget, but would like a good quality camera, reliable, still shot >> feature, firewire output. What are good brands/models to look at? TIA >> all. >> >> -- >> Luther KB5QHU >> Alma, Ark >> '83 300SD (happily running WVO/diesel mix) >> '82 300CD (Slate grey, black MBTex, WVO/D mix) >> '82 300D '90 300E (both parts or can run??) >> >> ___ >> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net >> > > >___ >For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > -- 69 280 SEL 120,000 Miles 72 350SL 108,000 Miles 2004 VW Passat 4 Motion 1999 Mazda Miata __ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
Is that a video, a still, or a combination? Jerry Ö¿Ö ~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Harry " M.)" Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 9:31 PM To: Mercedes mailing list Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera I picked up a HP Photosmart that takes exellent pictures and comes with a docking station that links up with a HP printer. The whole package was under $300
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
Does Nikon make one? On 9/6/05, Gerald R. Flintrop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Is that a video, a still, or a combination? > > Jerry Ö¿Ö > ~ > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Harry "M.)" > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 9:31 PM > To: Mercedes mailing list > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera > > I picked up a HP Photosmart that takes exellent pictures and comes with a > docking station that links up with a HP printer. The whole package was > under > $300 > > > > > > > ___ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net >
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
HDV is still a long way from the consumer realm. Its still too expensive, Sony has promised a sub $1000 camera by Christmas but for now ~$1600 is the best you're going to do. Then theres the question of distribution. Once you've shot on HDV how do you deliver it to your family and friends? Theres no HD DVD standard as of yet, Blueray and HDVDVD are still dukeing it out. For somebody looking for a hobby camcorder or just a toy I'd of course say go digital, anything else is a waste. For $200-$300 you can get a Sony digital8 which is the same quality as miniDV but in a cheaper camcorder with generally cheaper tapes. For any camcorder make sure its got a firewire port (Sony calls it iLink, also known as IEEE1394). JVC made some cams without them and thats a pain when it comes to editing. I've made a living in video for nearly a decade now, any questions just shout. -Curt Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:43:02 -0400 From: Bill Gallagher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mercedes mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed The best color is Sony followed by Panasonic . hope you are looking at HD, if not it's a wast of money HD 1080i format will show quality just under a 16 mm movie camera with color like Star War and beyond . enough to display a trillion colors http://www.camcorderinfo.com is a good place to start pay close attention to the color bar test .and see the color difference between each model poor color will look like your non-HD tv of today .. Bill - Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
Do you recall a review on a sony camera low cost, $500 range, with video quality rivaled a $3,000 professional camera in daylight mode the review was about year or so ago Bill Curt Raymond wrote: HDV is still a long way from the consumer realm. Its still too expensive, Sony has promised a sub $1000 camera by Christmas but for now ~$1600 is the best you're going to do. Then theres the question of distribution. Once you've shot on HDV how do you deliver it to your family and friends? Theres no HD DVD standard as of yet, Blueray and HDVDVD are still dukeing it out. For somebody looking for a hobby camcorder or just a toy I'd of course say go digital, anything else is a waste. For $200-$300 you can get a Sony digital8 which is the same quality as miniDV but in a cheaper camcorder with generally cheaper tapes. For any camcorder make sure its got a firewire port (Sony calls it iLink, also known as IEEE1394). JVC made some cams without them and thats a pain when it comes to editing. I've made a living in video for nearly a decade now, any questions just shout. -Curt Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:43:02 -0400 From: Bill Gallagher <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=9014&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=9014&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b>, Mercedes mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=9014&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=9014&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed The best color is Sony followed by Panasonic . hope you are looking at HD, if not it's a wast of money HD 1080i format will show quality just under a 16 mm movie camera with color like Star War and beyond . enough to display a trillion colors http://www.camcorderinfo.com <http://www.camcorderinfo.com/> is a good place to start pay close attention to the color bar test .and see the color difference between each model poor color will look like your non-HD tv of today .. Bill Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. <http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/> ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
Seriously guys I did TONS of research before buying mine...Go to the store and look at the Sony HC-21I don't think you could find a better camera for the money anywhere. Mike - Original Message - From: "Bill Gallagher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera Do you recall a review on a sony camera low cost, $500 range, with video quality rivaled a $3,000 professional camera in daylight mode the review was about year or so ago Bill Curt Raymond wrote: HDV is still a long way from the consumer realm. Its still too expensive, Sony has promised a sub $1000 camera by Christmas but for now ~$1600 is the best you're going to do. Then theres the question of distribution. Once you've shot on HDV how do you deliver it to your family and friends? Theres no HD DVD standard as of yet, Blueray and HDVDVD are still dukeing it out. For somebody looking for a hobby camcorder or just a toy I'd of course say go digital, anything else is a waste. For $200-$300 you can get a Sony digital8 which is the same quality as miniDV but in a cheaper camcorder with generally cheaper tapes. For any camcorder make sure its got a firewire port (Sony calls it iLink, also known as IEEE1394). JVC made some cams without them and thats a pain when it comes to editing. I've made a living in video for nearly a decade now, any questions just shout. -Curt Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:43:02 -0400 From: Bill Gallagher <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=9014&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=9014&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b>, Mercedes mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=9014&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=9014&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed The best color is Sony followed by Panasonic . hope you are looking at HD, if not it's a wast of money HD 1080i format will show quality just under a 16 mm movie camera with color like Star War and beyond . enough to display a trillion colors http://www.camcorderinfo.com <http://www.camcorderinfo.com/> is a good place to start pay close attention to the color bar test .and see the color difference between each model poor color will look like your non-HD tv of today .. Bill Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. <http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/> ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
Nope, but its not a fair comparison. Beware anything you read in the consumer press about "rivialing pro equipment". Realistically the basics of the prosumer, that is made for highend hobbists and low end pros and consumer cameras are nearly the same. The difference is the addition of better audio inputs and other options that pros want. Plus the larger chips that give better low light and a slightly sharper picture. I have a Sony VX-2000 which is a great camera. When I bought it 2 years ago it retailed for $1600, I bought right before the VX-2100 came out. Definately not the camera for everybody though, its got alot of features most people don't need. For the average user a TRV-230 Digital8 or TRV-11 miniDV (or whatever this season's equivalent) for $400-$500 is more than plenty. Canon also makes excellent cameras in the price range. -Curt Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:50:57 -0400 From: Bill Gallagher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera To: Mercedes mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Do you recall a review on a sony camera low cost, $500 range, with video quality rivaled a $3,000 professional camera in daylight mode the review was about year or so ago Bill - Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera
Color bars and the like are shown beside each camera for the reader to compare . it is not a word comparison but bar, graphic, and the like technical in nature with examples and explains/shows clearly DAYLIGHT SHOT compared .. if the light is changed i.e. sun set the clear winner is $3,000 camera which is well designed for a RANGE of Light conditions The two camera have very close overlapping quality within a small range, in this case, Daylight .. The review was not a Reader's Digest type, or Consumer Reports which keeps the viewer away from the technical data... Bill Curt Raymond wrote: Nope, but its not a fair comparison. Beware anything you read in the consumer press about "rivialing pro equipment". Realistically the basics of the prosumer, that is made for highend hobbists and low end pros and consumer cameras are nearly the same. The difference is the addition of better audio inputs and other options that pros want. Plus the larger chips that give better low light and a slightly sharper picture. I have a Sony VX-2000 which is a great camera. When I bought it 2 years ago it retailed for $1600, I bought right before the VX-2100 came out. Definately not the camera for everybody though, its got alot of features most people don't need. For the average user a TRV-230 Digital8 or TRV-11 miniDV (or whatever this season's equivalent) for $400-$500 is more than plenty. Canon also makes excellent cameras in the price range. -Curt Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:50:57 -0400 From: Bill Gallagher <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=12516&order=down&sort=date&pos=0>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT-video camera To: Mercedes mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=12516&order=down&sort=date&pos=0>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://us.f328.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&YY=12516&order=down&sort=date&pos=0>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Do you recall a review on a sony camera low cost, $500 range, with video quality rivaled a $3,000 professional camera in daylight mode the review was about year or so ago Bill Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. <http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/> ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera thumbs
I gave you a thumbs down for insulting old Mercs and that thing on your head. Then again what can we expect from VW drivers, Aldi parking lots are full of them. Also don't like it when people point the camera at something and then say what the camera sees "negative 4, 4.5". We can see that, how much was the temperature thingy and where do the probes go. What about telling 99.9% of the world which operates in Celsius, how cold it is? Is this the coldest start you have had for a while? No no no, just whine about old Mercs. Seriously though, I reckon the level of camera depends on how serious you wanna get, along the lines of Kent Bluecoat, who uses his videos for business purposes and thus has to have a reasonable degree of quality. Or is is just a bit of fun, where the content is more important than the quality. Ideally you want a quality video that is entertaining and informative but when it come down to it a vid about DIYing something is best if it is concise and understandable. Things like subtitles or text helps a lot, for instance when talking about fluids, part numbers and torques. This something that Kent has yet to master. Hendrik who has yet to figure out how to publish vids from an ipod to adtube, have some nasty wicked footage of Australian killer drop bears attacking On 26/01/14 13:05, Curt Raymond wrote: Doesn't matter all that much, most anything will make it. Lately I've used Angie's Canon point and shoot, you can see the result here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4nl-RiKisE I tried to make that video with the GoPro but the audio was terrible. I've got another video I just finished shooting on cleaning the points on my Polaris snowmobile, the Canon got the nod there too because it is threaded for a tripod. I need to test and see if my Fuji shoots HD, if it does I'll stop stealing Angie's camera, although hers uses an SD card which my Mac has a slot for which is mighty handy. My tape based camera has been sitting around for months. I may have to get a more serious solid state video camera if I do some pro level work but... A lot of stuff you see on TV is shot with DSLR which I think is a tragic waste of a camera. Meaning the camera is being way under-utilized. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera thumbs
Hendrik who has yet to figure out how to publish vids from an ipod to adtube, have some nasty wicked footage of Australian killer drop bears attacking Lets see them thar ozzie drop bear attacks. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera thumbs
Google is being a pain, I try to sign in to ytube and then it want me to sign into my google account with a BS user name. I am starting to get a bit sick of google and the way it is bullying people into doing what they want. Hendrik who is a tad frustrated On 26/01/14 14:34, Dieselhead wrote: Hendrik who has yet to figure out how to publish vids from an ipod to adtube, have some nasty wicked footage of Australian killer drop bears attacking Lets see them thar ozzie drop bear attacks. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: Video Camera thumbs
OK, use Bing instead. On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Hendrik and Fay wrote: > Google is being a pain, I try to sign in to ytube and then it want me to > sign into my google account with a BS user name. > I am starting to get a bit sick of google and the way it is bullying > people into doing what they want. > > Hendrik > who is a tad frustrated > > On 26/01/14 14:34, Dieselhead wrote: > >> Hendrik >>> who has yet to figure out how to publish vids from an ipod to adtube, >>> have some nasty wicked footage of Australian killer drop bears attacking >>> >> >> Lets see them thar ozzie drop bear attacks. >> >> > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
