Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Ah, OK, I was thinking you had to push the pedal nearly to the floor to get the transmission in/out of gear. Yes, slave is external. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt Raymond Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:03 PM To: Diesel List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D I have SHORT pedal travel though, the clutch engages right quick, is that what you're saying? Dwight reports the MC was replaced not too long ago, is the slave external to the trans? -Curt Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:42:47 -0400 From: "Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: <1370e90cffd2ac4b8cb65267ba10c4b80369d...@naeachrlez02v.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Long pedal travel and grinding for gear engagement are classic symptoms for failing clutch master cylinder or slave cylinder, both are very common and relatively easy to fix, and FAR easier than pulling the transmission to check the disk, clutch pressure plate, and bearing. Check for any evidence of wetness at the clutch MC (located right above/behind the clutch pedal under the dash) and then check at the slave cylinder. I like to touch any sign of wetness with a clean finger and then put that finger on the tip of my tongue; brake fluid is very bitter and easy to identify this way. If you find any evidence, replace the suspect component(s). -Max ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
I'm not too familiar with the 240 transmission but given the year and that it's a Mercedes I would be surprised if it didn't have synchros on the first gear. Manfred All MB manual 4 speeds since at least 1959, (and I believe all postwar cars) Are fully synchronized, including first. Reverse is not synchronized. Doesn't matter if they are side shifter or top shifter. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
I'm not too familiar with the 240 transmission but given the year and that it's a Mercedes I would be surprised if it didn't have synchros on the first gear. This is what would slow the gears to a stop and make the chance of grinding into first at a stop a more remote possibility. You might however have noticed a slight hesitation or increase of force needed to put the shifter into first. Reverse on the other hand does not have synchros on it to slow and stop the gears so it grinds. If you wait on the repairs you will start to have more problems getting it into first as well as shifting between gears when rolling. Unless the speed at sift point is just right. Manfred Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:21:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Curt Raymond To: Diesel List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: <353478.27942...@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You are correct on the symptom except its ONLY for reverse. All other gears are fine and reverse would grind when you're moving anyway. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
I have SHORT pedal travel though, the clutch engages right quick, is that what you're saying? Dwight reports the MC was replaced not too long ago, is the slave external to the trans? -Curt Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:42:47 -0400 From: "Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: <1370e90cffd2ac4b8cb65267ba10c4b80369d...@naeachrlez02v.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Long pedal travel and grinding for gear engagement are classic symptoms for failing clutch master cylinder or slave cylinder, both are very common and relatively easy to fix, and FAR easier than pulling the transmission to check the disk, clutch pressure plate, and bearing. Check for any evidence of wetness at the clutch MC (located right above/behind the clutch pedal under the dash) and then check at the slave cylinder. I like to touch any sign of wetness with a clean finger and then put that finger on the tip of my tongue; brake fluid is very bitter and easy to identify this way. If you find any evidence, replace the suspect component(s). -Max ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Weird, I've always found it to be as Fred described. I used to do a lot of those back in the old VW days. Sometimes 3 or 4 a week, most with the same draggy disengagement problem. Usually found to be gunk on the shaft. That's also why when you replace a clutch disk you will usually find that the disk will be more worn on the flywheel side then on the pressure plate side. Manfred Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:43:35 -0500 From: Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I've never seen that. In the gunk situation, with the BMW /5 series, the problem when the shaft got gunked up, manifests itself exactly as Philip described. Fred's situation could happen in theory. But Philip's description would likely happen first. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
You are correct on the symptom except its ONLY for reverse. All other gears are fine and reverse would grind when you're moving anyway. -Curt Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:31:23 -0400 From: MG To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: <4cc1841b.2030...@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I thought his problem was hard to engage when standing still. Thick oil would only cause grinding while the car is rolling. IT would actually help to slow the gears down and make engagement easier when cold while standing still. My vote goes for dry grease on the pilot bushing, gunk on the shaft and low fluid/air in the hydraulics. In that order. Check the hydraulic situation first cause it's the easiest. Then go for the others cause they need tranny removal. While you have the tranny out you will want to replace at least the disk and throwout bearing. Manfred ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Long pedal travel and grinding for gear engagement are classic symptoms for failing clutch master cylinder or slave cylinder, both are very common and relatively easy to fix, and FAR easier than pulling the transmission to check the disk, clutch pressure plate, and bearing. Check for any evidence of wetness at the clutch MC (located right above/behind the clutch pedal under the dash) and then check at the slave cylinder. I like to touch any sign of wetness with a clean finger and then put that finger on the tip of my tongue; brake fluid is very bitter and easy to identify this way. If you find any evidence, replace the suspect component(s). -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of MG Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 8:31 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D I thought his problem was hard to engage when standing still. Thick oil would only cause grinding while the car is rolling. IT would actually help to slow the gears down and make engagement easier when cold while standing still. My vote goes for dry grease on the pilot bushing, gunk on the shaft and low fluid/air in the hydraulics. In that order. Check the hydraulic situation first cause it's the easiest. Then go for the others cause they need tranny removal. While you have the tranny out you will want to replace at least the disk and throwout bearing. Manfred Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:08:18 -0400 From: Frederick W Moir To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: <4cc08fa2.5030...@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Dieselhead, et al. No NOT agree! If the clutch disc will not slide easily on the splines, it will drag on the flywheel or Clutch cover, causing crunchy engagement, esp. when cold, and cause there to be a lot of pedal travel in an attempt to free up the disc. Not so? Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
I thought his problem was hard to engage when standing still. Thick oil would only cause grinding while the car is rolling. IT would actually help to slow the gears down and make engagement easier when cold while standing still. My vote goes for dry grease on the pilot bushing, gunk on the shaft and low fluid/air in the hydraulics. In that order. Check the hydraulic situation first cause it's the easiest. Then go for the others cause they need tranny removal. While you have the tranny out you will want to replace at least the disk and throwout bearing. Manfred Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:08:18 -0400 From: Frederick W Moir To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: <4cc08fa2.5030...@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Dieselhead, et al. No NOT agree! If the clutch disc will not slide easily on the splines, it will drag on the flywheel or Clutch cover, causing crunchy engagement, esp. when cold, and cause there to be a lot of pedal travel in an attempt to free up the disc. Not so? Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
I've never seen that. In the gunk situation, with the BMW /5 series, the problem when the shaft got gunked up, manifests itself exactly as Philip described. Fred's situation could happen in theory. But Philip's description would likely happen first. Fmiser wrote: For the gunk to cause it to not disengage fully, the pedal would not move all the way. The driver with his foot on the pedal can supply _way_ more force to push past gunk than the springs can to "return". Thus it's the return/engage, not the release that the gunk will interfere with. -- Philip Gunk on the input shaft splines wouldn't prevent the pressure plate from moving away from the disk, but it's conceivable it could prevent the disk from moving away from the flywheel. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Fmiser wrote: For the gunk to cause it to not disengage fully, the pedal would not move all the way. The driver with his foot on the pedal can supply _way_ more force to push past gunk than the springs can to "return". Thus it's the return/engage, not the release that the gunk will interfere with. -- Philip Gunk on the input shaft splines wouldn't prevent the pressure plate from moving away from the disk, but it's conceivable it could prevent the disk from moving away from the flywheel. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Phillip. The clutch operates by pinching the clutch disc between the flywheel and the clutch cover. The clutch cover has heavy springs or a spring disc to perform the pinching. when the clutch pedal is pushed down the clutch cover retracts slightly from the clutch disc thus releasing pressure on one side of the disc, the disc then slides slightly along the splined transmission input shaft away from the flywheel, thus "releasing" the pinching of the clutch friction disc. With me so far? IF the friction disc does not slide it will drag on the flywheel face. The pedal travel is a purely mechanical feature dependent upon the geometry of the assorted mechanical and hydraulic parts. We are entitled to our version of the truth, even if it is wrong. Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred. On 10/21/2010 3:49 PM, Fmiser wrote: Frederick W Moir wrote: Dieselhead, et al. No NOT agree! If the clutch disc will not slide easily on the splines, it will drag on the flywheel or Clutch cover, causing crunchy engagement, esp. when cold, and cause there to be a lot of pedal travel in an attempt to free up the disc. Not so? Not so. For the gunk to cause it to not disengage fully, the pedal would not move all the way. The driver with his foot on the pedal can supply _way_ more force to push past gunk than the springs can to "return". Thus it's the return/engage, not the release that the gunk will interfere with. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
> Frederick W Moir wrote: > Dieselhead, et al. > No NOT agree! > If the clutch disc will not slide easily on the splines, it > will drag on the flywheel or Clutch cover, causing crunchy > engagement, esp. when cold, and cause there to be a lot of > pedal travel in an attempt to free up the disc. > Not so? Not so. For the gunk to cause it to not disengage fully, the pedal would not move all the way. The driver with his foot on the pedal can supply _way_ more force to push past gunk than the springs can to "return". Thus it's the return/engage, not the release that the gunk will interfere with. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
> Curt Raymond wrote: > So now that cooler weather has set in I find that the trans on > my '78 240D (that I finally bought from Dwight) doesn't want > to shift in reverse until the car has been driven some. First > thing in the morning I fire it up and it'll go into reverse > (to get out of the driveway) but theres always a little > grinding to do so. Most times I just start in reverse to avoid > the grind but lately its been cold enough I need to scrape the > windshield. Once I've driven enough for the engine to be warm > it'll shift in to reverse no problem... What oil does it have in it? Hopefully not 90W gear oil. Those transmissions respond well to Mobil-1 ATF. (Yes, ATF in the manual transmission.) > The clutch engages very low on the pedal throw compared with > other MBs I've driven. Dwight had mentioned his mechanic said > the car needed a clutch but I can't see why other than *maybe* > it doesn't disengage well... Clutch wear has the opposite problem. That is, as the clutch wears the engage point gets higher. --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
That all makes sense, thanks. The car will go to my Indy sometime soon for a block heater, when we do that I think I'll have him put M1 ATF in the trans and see how it goes. I'll also go out today or tomorrow and make sure the MC is sufficient filled. -Curt Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:14:34 -0500 From: Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" SO this is a 4 speed manual, I gather. 1. Check/change the trans oil. If someone put hypoid gear oil in it, it will smell distinctly. If it is like older 4 speeds, it takes ATF, not gear oil. Gear oil gets very heavy when cold, and the MB transissions are not made for this. It causes the symptoms you describe. (input shaft drives the output shaft because the oil is not slippery enough, causing grinding. If the clutch was worn out, at the end of adjustment, the pedal (release) is too high, not too low. I always tried to keep the release point low to be sure there is plenty of distance to release the throwout bearing from the clutch fingers. If the pedal gets to high, then the bearing rides on the fingers. A worn out clutch will over-rev in high especially when going over bumps. >So now that cooler weather has set in I find that the trans on my >'78 240D (that I finally bought from Dwight) doesn't want to shift >in reverse until the car has been driven some. First thing in the >morning I fire it up and it'll go into reverse (to get out of the >driveway) but theres always a little grinding to do so. Most times I >just start in reverse to avoid the grind but lately its been cold >enough I need to scrape the windshield. >Once I've driven enough for the engine to be warm it'll shift in to >reverse no problem... > >The clutch engages very low on the pedal throw compared with other >MBs I've driven. Dwight had mentioned his mechanic said the car >needed a clutch but I can't see why other than *maybe* it doesn't >disengage well... > >Does the '78 have the same trans as my '83? Might be worth pulling >the trans from my '83 which has a replacement clutch with only >~50,000 miles on it. > >-Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Dieselhead, et al. No NOT agree! If the clutch disc will not slide easily on the splines, it will drag on the flywheel or Clutch cover, causing crunchy engagement, esp. when cold, and cause there to be a lot of pedal travel in an attempt to free up the disc. Not so? Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred. On 10/21/2010 2:28 PM, Dieselhead wrote: The point is, that gunk on the splines does NOT affect clutch release. But is seen in delayed/abrupt engagement of the clutch. The obvious is that on the BWM, you either kill the engine, or do an unexpected wheelie. Worst in first. If Curt's 240D had gunked up splines, it would not cause the symptoms Curt described in my experience. It would cause unintended "popping the clutch." ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
the BMW /5 motorsickles had something like a 21 spline input shaft in place of the normal 6 splines. These have a history of getting gunked up with a little oil seepage, dust from the clutch disk and environmental dust. They regularly have to have the trans removed, spline cleaning, lube with never-seize and reassembly. The point is, that gunk on the splines does NOT affect clutch release. But is seen in delayed/abrupt engagement of the clutch. The obvious is that on the BWM, you either kill the engine, or do an unexpected wheelie. Worst in first. If Curt's 240D had gunked up splines, it would not cause the symptoms Curt described in my experience. It would cause unintended "popping the clutch." Curt. Goo is usually from leaky seals, either engine rear main or trans input shaft seal added to dust, asbestos/ceramic/organic or just plain old MBZ dirt. Some transmissions have no input seals, just an oil slinger. The clutch slave may also be moist from failing seals and dribbling into the clutch housing, though you would see falling M/C fluid levels and a low pedal. Cure is to remove trans and "Stare and compare", coupled with a rigorous cleaning of all parts. Someone else's comment about Hypoid oil in the trans is worth checking out, as it would not be beyond the realm of some Furrin kaar eggspurtz to screw things up by using the knowledge gained under the local shade tree! (Beer in hand) YMMV Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred On 10/21/2010 1:31 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: Goo sounds like a reasonable diagnosis, whats the fix? Does the trans have to come out? If so I probably won't be doing it... I don't think Dwight had noticed anything and I didn't notice anything until we started getting cooler weather. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
It wouldn't. Crawl under and pull the trans fill plug , stick your finger in. If it smells like diff grease, drain and refill with ATF. Hypoid gear oil in the trans will do what you describe, and will change as it warms up. Well having not opened the clutch circuit I wouldn't have thought to bleed air out... I guess I should make sure I've got plenty of fluid but why would the problem go away when warm? -Curt Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:38:36 -0400 From: Mitch Haley To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: <4cc05e7c.30...@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Did you bleed the air out of the clutch circuit? Or is it supposed to self purge the air with use? Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Curt Raymond wrote: Well having not opened the clutch circuit I wouldn't have thought to bleed air out... I guess I should make sure I've got plenty of fluid but why would the problem go away when warm? You may have two problems, late and or draggy clutch release, and stiff tranny fluid. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Curt. Goo is usually from leaky seals, either engine rear main or trans input shaft seal added to dust, asbestos/ceramic/organic or just plain old MBZ dirt. Some transmissions have no input seals, just an oil slinger. The clutch slave may also be moist from failing seals and dribbling into the clutch housing, though you would see falling M/C fluid levels and a low pedal. Cure is to remove trans and "Stare and compare", coupled with a rigorous cleaning of all parts. Someone else's comment about Hypoid oil in the trans is worth checking out, as it would not be beyond the realm of some Furrin kaar eggspurtz to screw things up by using the knowledge gained under the local shade tree! (Beer in hand) YMMV Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred On 10/21/2010 1:31 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: Goo sounds like a reasonable diagnosis, whats the fix? Does the trans have to come out? If so I probably won't be doing it... I don't think Dwight had noticed anything and I didn't notice anything until we started getting cooler weather. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Goo sounds like a reasonable diagnosis, whats the fix? Does the trans have to come out? If so I probably won't be doing it... I don't think Dwight had noticed anything and I didn't notice anything until we started getting cooler weather. -Curt Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:19:53 -0400 From: Frederick W Moir To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: <4cc06829.4050...@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi, Curt, et al. By my experience, non-release of clutch is usually something like the disk not sliding on the input shaft, (rust/dust-filled-oil-goo), or the T/O bearing is getting tight on the shaft from the same stuff, or dry seizure of the pilot bearing, (ball, or sintered bronze/brass). The fact that is is worse cold would seem to point to goo. Low clutch may be worn paatz, T/O, Cover fingers or worn/Mal-adjusted cylinders. What is the history of this slow onset? Dwight? I'll go back to sleep now. Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred. On 10/21/2010 11:31 AM, Curt Raymond wrote: > So now that cooler weather has set in I find that the trans on my '78 240D (that I finally bought from Dwight) doesn't want to shift in reverse until the car has been driven some. First thing in the morning I fire it up and it'll go into reverse (to get out of the driveway) but theres always a little grinding to do so. Most times I just start in reverse to avoid the grind but lately its been cold enough I need to scrape the windshield. > Once I've driven enough for the engine to be warm it'll shift in to reverse > no problem... > > The clutch engages very low on the pedal throw compared with other MBs I've driven. Dwight had mentioned his mechanic said the car needed a clutch but I can't see why other than *maybe* it doesn't disengage well... > > Does the '78 have the same trans as my '83? Might be worth pulling the trans from my '83 which has a replacement clutch with only ~50,000 miles on it. > > -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Well having not opened the clutch circuit I wouldn't have thought to bleed air out... I guess I should make sure I've got plenty of fluid but why would the problem go away when warm? -Curt Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:38:36 -0400 From: Mitch Haley To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D Message-ID: <4cc05e7c.30...@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Did you bleed the air out of the clutch circuit? Or is it supposed to self purge the air with use? Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
SO this is a 4 speed manual, I gather. 1. Check/change the trans oil. If someone put hypoid gear oil in it, it will smell distinctly. If it is like older 4 speeds, it takes ATF, not gear oil. Gear oil gets very heavy when cold, and the MB transissions are not made for this. It causes the symptoms you describe. (input shaft drives the output shaft because the oil is not slippery enough, causing grinding. If the clutch was worn out, at the end of adjustment, the pedal (release) is too high, not too low. I always tried to keep the release point low to be sure there is plenty of distance to release the throwout bearing from the clutch fingers. If the pedal gets to high, then the bearing rides on the fingers. A worn out clutch will over-rev in high especially when going over bumps. So now that cooler weather has set in I find that the trans on my '78 240D (that I finally bought from Dwight) doesn't want to shift in reverse until the car has been driven some. First thing in the morning I fire it up and it'll go into reverse (to get out of the driveway) but theres always a little grinding to do so. Most times I just start in reverse to avoid the grind but lately its been cold enough I need to scrape the windshield. Once I've driven enough for the engine to be warm it'll shift in to reverse no problem... The clutch engages very low on the pedal throw compared with other MBs I've driven. Dwight had mentioned his mechanic said the car needed a clutch but I can't see why other than *maybe* it doesn't disengage well... Does the '78 have the same trans as my '83? Might be worth pulling the trans from my '83 which has a replacement clutch with only ~50,000 miles on it. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Hi, Curt, et al. By my experience, non-release of clutch is usually something like the disk not sliding on the input shaft, (rust/dust-filled-oil-goo), or the T/O bearing is getting tight on the shaft from the same stuff, or dry seizure of the pilot bearing, (ball, or sintered bronze/brass). The fact that is is worse cold would seem to point to goo. Low clutch may be worn paatz, T/O, Cover fingers or worn/Mal-adjusted cylinders. What is the history of this slow onset? Dwight? I'll go back to sleep now. Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred. On 10/21/2010 11:31 AM, Curt Raymond wrote: So now that cooler weather has set in I find that the trans on my '78 240D (that I finally bought from Dwight) doesn't want to shift in reverse until the car has been driven some. First thing in the morning I fire it up and it'll go into reverse (to get out of the driveway) but theres always a little grinding to do so. Most times I just start in reverse to avoid the grind but lately its been cold enough I need to scrape the windshield. Once I've driven enough for the engine to be warm it'll shift in to reverse no problem... The clutch engages very low on the pedal throw compared with other MBs I've driven. Dwight had mentioned his mechanic said the car needed a clutch but I can't see why other than *maybe* it doesn't disengage well... Does the '78 have the same trans as my '83? Might be worth pulling the trans from my '83 which has a replacement clutch with only ~50,000 miles on it. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Could be leaking master cylinder, slave cylinder, piping, or mal-adjusted master cylinder. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt Raymond Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 11:31 AM To: Diesel List Subject: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D So now that cooler weather has set in I find that the trans on my '78 240D (that I finally bought from Dwight) doesn't want to shift in reverse until the car has been driven some. First thing in the morning I fire it up and it'll go into reverse (to get out of the driveway) but theres always a little grinding to do so. Most times I just start in reverse to avoid the grind but lately its been cold enough I need to scrape the windshield. Once I've driven enough for the engine to be warm it'll shift in to reverse no problem... The clutch engages very low on the pedal throw compared with other MBs I've driven. Dwight had mentioned his mechanic said the car needed a clutch but I can't see why other than *maybe* it doesn't disengage well... Does the '78 have the same trans as my '83? Might be worth pulling the trans from my '83 which has a replacement clutch with only ~50,000 miles on it. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Weird trans issue - '78 240D
Did you bleed the air out of the clutch circuit? Or is it supposed to self purge the air with use? Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
