RE: Mersenne: Dissed again
> We could set a contest, where people should give answers in the spirit > of this answer by Spike, to the question: "What is the use of large > primes?" My entry: To piss off phone companies. :-D Do I win? _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
Daidalos wrote: Great! great!! We could set a contest, where people should give answers in the spirit of this answer by Spike, to the question: "What is the use of large primes?" Are we allowed more than one entry? spike _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Uses for large primes (Was: dissed again)
Del Brand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime >numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. OK, I hafta confess. I do it just for the prime parties we have every time we actually bag one. spike _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
At 05:22 PM 10/23/02 -0400, C. Garrison wrote: > I look at GIMPS' finding of large primes as an avenue of advancing the > concept of a Unified Theory for Mathematics - much like that which you > hear about in Physics. Should everything that one does in life have to have a noble higher purpose? I stay in GIMPS because crunching on gigantic numbers has fascinated me ever since I discovered the subject in college, and I love it. The explanation stops there; I don't care if someone else believes I can do something more altruistic or worthy. I will never apologize for or qualify that which I love doing. Two more data points: The science editor of the Washington Post once lectured to the physics dept. at the U of MD College Park one day. In his opinion, the folks who tried (and failed) to get funding for the superconducting supercollider did it all wrong. They tried to emphasize all the good and useful technologies that would eventually come out of the project. Instead, he thought they just should have said "we need this thing to discover the secrets of the universe". Finally, when asked what possible use the newly discovered electromagnetic field could have, van Oersted reportedly answered "Madam, of what use is a newborn child?" jasonp _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
Great! great!! We could set a contest, where people should give answers in the spirit of this answer by Spike, to the question: "What is the use of large primes?" Best answers will win the 'Prize of the Great Expert Primus', or something, etc. I am usually quoting with care, but this time I'll copy the message again, so that you can enjoy it again. > > Del S. Brand wrote: > > > > I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime > > numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > D.Brand > > > Its a universal defense mechanism, similar to the > Egyption pyramids. When invaders wandered into > Egypt, they saw these enormous squared-off mountains, > clearly man made. Surely this society had s > many guys and s much spare time on its hands > as to do this, they better not mess with them. They > turned south and invaded there instead. > > If we contact extra-terrestrials, we send them our > enormous primes. They realize we have so many > idle computer and brains, they better be nice to > us. They turn south and go invade Venus instead. > > spike Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS Idalion, LefkosiaTO FOBO TOU QANATOU" Kypros -- _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
Has anyone looked into getting GIMPS into a major Linux distribution? Maybe the program call be relegated into a hardware benchmark/burn-in category.
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
I would be in favor of a screen saver version as long as it can: a) run in the non-screen saver background (as it currently does) b) have the screen saver option disabled c) have same pretty screen accessible via menu for us geeks to check periodically So us geeks can run it faster and mainstream users can watch pretty colors. - Original Message - From: Brian J. Beesley To: Aaron Blosser Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Mersenne: Dissed again On Tuesday 22 October 2002 16:31, you wrote: And we tend to run in the background, all the time, instead of wasting cycles waiting for a screen saver to kick in, then wasting even more cycles drawing "pretty" graphics :-PProbably we would get more participants if we had a screen saver version. This has been mentioned many times before.
Re: Mersenne: On v18 factoring
Is there any kind of assignment that will force the client to try to calculate a divide by zero and crash? Or would other safe testing still be desired? <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>Subscribe to The Gann Letter if you are interested in:varying levels of humor/jokes/quotes, parody/satire,science/space/technology items, cool news, games,programs, pics, and other interesting stuff. subscribe #1: [EMAIL PROTECTED]subscribe #2: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGannLetter/joinsubscribe #3: gann (at) ganns.comread online : http://ganns.com/TheGannLetter<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> - Original Message - From: Brian J. Beesley To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 1:52 AM Subject: Re: Mersenne: On v18 factoring On Tuesday 22 October 2002 19:09, Gordon Bower wrote:> [... snip ...]> Does anyone have any suggestions for how to stop a runaway copy of> v18? Perhaps in a few weeks the server can be updated to return an "out of> exponents" error to v18 instead of offering it an assignment it can't> handle?This is not trivial - if you do this then a "broken" client will probably request another assignment immediately - thus trapping the client and the server into a vicious circle. Whilst the client can go hang for all anyone else cares, the effects on the server would probably be much the same as handing out an "unacceptable" assignment.Other people have mentioned the possibility of "automatically" disengaging or updating the client. I have very serious reservations about this; the problem is that it leaves the system hosting the client wide open to use of the mechanism for malicious purposes, e.g. "updating" to a client containing a trojan or switching it to a different project, or attacking a user by disengaging his systems so that you can leapfrog him in the league tables. I'm afraid that I would have to withdraw my systems from the project, and recommend that other people did the same, if any such capability was added to the client.Given that the server can tell the difference between a v18 client and a later one, would it not make most sense to have the server assign a LL test on the _highest_ unallocated exponent which v18 can handle if a v18 client asks for a factoring assignment and none suitable are available. This action would effectively remove the client from the loop for a while (probably a few months, given that most v18 clients will be running on slowish systems), thereby alleviating the load on the server, and buying time to contact the system administrator - when this is still relevant, of course. And some useful work may still be completed, eventually!RegardsBrian Beesley_Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htmMersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
In a message dated 10/23/2002 3:05:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'Volunteer' goes without saying. Certainly we need a marketing effort. Does anyone have any ideas? What about a campaign directed at schools? Alex
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
May that those who are better qualified to correct my assumptions, but here's my take... I look at GIMPS' finding of large primes as an avenue of advancing the concept of a Unified Theory for Mathematics - much like that which you hear about in Physics. Number Theory. Facinating field of study. Many seemingly unrelated ideas show interconnectedness. Example; take the series 1/(n-squared) where n goes from 1 to infinity; sum all the terms together and you get the value (pi-squared)/6. How does the summation of the inverse of all squares relate to the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter?! How about another value that shows up all the time? - e the logarithmic constant. The distribution of primes across the natural number line has a logarithmic form. So we have a way of closely estimating the nth prime P[n} but "close" just doesn't cut it does it? The fact is, as simple the concept of a prime is, we cannot say what the nth prime is. Nor can we say if P[n] is prime, what is P[n+1]? We know there are twin primes, but we don't know if there are an endless number of them. We know there are Mersenne primes, but we don't know if there are an endless number of them either. The way I see it. If we can find rhyme or reason to the exact nature of Mersenne primes (hopefully acquiring more data points will spur a new line of thought), that may help with the nature of primes in general. And that will undoubtedly have an impact across many current Number Theory dilemmas. Results from that would quite possibly become the glue to a Unified Theory. If you can't find the answer to a whole problem, break it down and try solving some of the pieces. If you solve a piece of the problem, the larger problem becomes easier. That's the way I think of GIMPS. aka DigitalConcepts www.teamprimerib.com - Original Message - From: Del S. Brand To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 3:14 AM Subject: Re: Mersenne: Dissed again I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. Any ideas? D.Brand
Re: Mersenne: On v18 factoring
George Woltman wrote: (B> At 02:03 AM 10/23/2002 +, Russel Brooks wrote: (B> >How about a "Black List" of clients that the server will no (B> >longer give work to? I would think the problem of pcs no longer (B> >under your control would be an increasing problem. (B> (B> We want to give them double-checks so that the client isn't continually (B> asking the server for work. This wastes bandwidth needlessly. (B (BAren't Double Checks going to increase in size until we have the (Bsame problem we're having now with first checks? If yes then (Bwhat do you give them at that time? Can you give Factoring if (Bthe client is asking for an LL test? (B (BCheers... Russ (B (BDIGITAL FREEDOM! --> http://www.eff.org/ (B (B_ (BUnsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm (BMersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
On 23 Oct 2002 at 19:42, Daran wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "E. Weddington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 4:09 PM > Subject: Mersenne: Dissed again > > > Folding@Home's success: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/10/021022070813.htm > > > > Again, they mention SETI@home. As if that were the only other > > distributed project out there. *sigh* > > Indeed they're not. > And neither are we. Once upon a time GIMPS was the only show in town, > so it got all the kudos. Now there are dozens of distributed > computing projects. We're going to have to come to terms with the fact > that the the world doesn't 'owe' us a mention. > The point is, whenever another distributed project is mentioned, seti@home invariably gets a mention. When a distributed project shows any kind of success, seti@home gets a mention. It's not about anybody 'oweing' us a mention. It's about marketing and spin. Why should seti@home get a mention in just about every journal piece that get's written about distributed computing? Especially since GIMPS is probably *the* most successful distributed project around. It's about changing the mindset of people to when they think "distributed project", they don't think "chasing aliens", they instead think of GIMPS, because it's the most successful, best executed, distributed project. This is about behavioral psychology! It's like when Richard Stallman keeps harping that it's GNU/Linux not *just* Linux. It's about executing a #define distributed_computing GIMPS in the wetware of technical writers. Eric _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
On Tuesday 22 October 2002 16:31, you wrote: > Yeah, well, we don't have a super cool Trojan horse program that can > update itself (and crash machines) like these other ones, and we're not > out there looking for ET or saving cancer boy or anything... just a > bunch of geeks looking for big numbers. :) (tongue planted firmly in > cheek here). And we tend to run in the background, all the time, instead of wasting cycles waiting for a screen saver to kick in, then wasting even more cycles drawing "pretty" graphics :-P Probably we would get more participants if we had a screen saver version. This has been mentioned many times before. And, _are_ we just looking for "big numbers"? There are software applications for improved algorithms & implementations of algorithms developed for this project; there are engineering spinoffs - a couple of years ago, the problem was how to keep GHz+ CPUs cool enough to be reliable, now the problem is how to make systems quiet enough to live with as well; there are cryptological spinoffs, not withstanding the obvious point that knowledge of a few very large primes is not in itself useful ... for instance, has anyone considered using the sequence of residuals from a L-L test as a practical one-time pad? The problem with one-time pads is distributing the data - but you can effectively transmit a long sequence of residuals by specifying only the exponent and the start iteration, which can be transmitted securely using only a tiny fraction of your old one-time pad data ... OK, this is pretty geekish stuff, but so what? Regards Brian Beesley _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: On v18 factoring
On Wednesday 23 October 2002 07:26, Nathan Russell wrote: > >Other people have mentioned the possibility of "automatically" disengaging > > or updating the client. > > I am aware of several linux distributions which do the exact same > thing (in fact I am not aware of any widely popular one which > doesn't). Eh? I'm not aware of any major OS which even attempts to automatically install upgrades, with the exception of Win 2000 (if you applied SP3 and forgot to disable automatic updating) and Win XP (if you applied SP1 and forgot to disable automatic updating). The problem here is one of _control_. If you allow someone else - whatever their intentions are - to install & run software on your system without your explicit permission on a case-by-case basis, you are effectively handing over full control of your system & all the data on it to someone else. > > However, they require the user to initiate the update. Ah, I see what you mean. > Would you be > more comfortable if that was done, as well as some sort of signature > on the update files? Here's the difference: when I'm updating my (Red Hat) linux systems, _I_ wrote the script that downloads the update files (from a local mirror of my choice) & checks the certificates. Only then do I trust someone else's software to unpack and apply the updates. I'd far rather run an unpatched, insecure service than depend on something that is in principle uncheckable to download & install software automatically. The problem is that, if the connection can be hacked in to, an attacker can supply anything they like Better still if I just download the source code & compile it myself. That way I am absolutely sure that what I use is what I think I'm using. Obviously this principle can apply only to programs which are 100% open source. But here's the crunch: this discussion is related to the current problems with seriously obsolete clients. By definition these do not contain auto-update code, so the discussion is (+/-) pointless. To fix the problems, we really need to take a "belt and braces" approach: (1) the server needs to protect itself from "machine gun" requests. I reckon the best way to do this is for the server to detect continuous repeat requests & automatically command its firewall to block data from that source address for a limited time (say one hour). This would protect the server from excess load, yet is not exploitable by remote attackers - all they can do is temporarily block themselves out! Although not neccessary to the project, I'd reccomend that the blocking action be logged so that it can be followed up (manually or automatically) by contacting the user concerned. Actual contact may sometimes not be possible because the registered user no longer controls the system. (2) future clients should be modified so that, if PrimeNet has no suitable work to allocate, they back off for a few hours before trying again. Even if this means running out of work altogether - though, given the "days of work" parameter, they should run "in need of more work" for some time before finishing the current assignment. In addition the server probably would benefit from addition of "intelligence" so that it does not attempt to assign work which specific versions of the client cannot accept. However, the action I suggest under (1) alone is sufficient; no automatic or forced upgrade is _required_. Regards Brian Beesley _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
- Original Message - From: "E. Weddington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 4:09 PM Subject: Mersenne: Dissed again > Folding@Home's success: > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/10/021022070813.htm > > Again, they mention SETI@home. As if that were the only other > distributed project out there. *sigh* Indeed they're not. And neither are we. Once upon a time GIMPS was the only show in town, so it got all the kudos. Now there are dozens of distributed computing projects. We're going to have to come to terms with the fact that the the world doesn't 'owe' us a mention. > Eric Weddington Daran G. _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
- Original Message - From: "E. Weddington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:19 PM Subject: Re: Mersenne: Dissed again > On 22 Oct 2002 at 14:40, Jeff Woods wrote: > > Either they were really great activists in signing people up, or GIMPS > > has SOMETHING about it that won't get people to participate. We > > either need to step up our profile, be more active at recruiting, or > > do SOMETHING to get us off the static bubble we've been on, at about > > 18,000 members, 31,000 computers, and falling. Our output goes up > > ONLY because most of our members upgrade as CPUs get better and > > cheaper. GIMPS's problems are:- 1. Very long work units. People - especially newbies - want to see results fast. They don't want to have to wait a week before they find themselves on the chart. 2. No obvious benefit to mankind. 3. 'Unsexy' subject matter. > What do you have in mind, a volunteer marketing effort? 'Volunteer' goes without saying. Certainly we need a marketing effort. Does anyone have any ideas? > Eric Daran _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
Well... spike66 wrote: Del S. Brand wrote: I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. Any ideas? D.Brand Del S. Brand wrote: I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. Any ideas? D.Brand Its a universal defense mechanism, similar to the Egyption pyramids. When invaders wandered into Egypt, they saw these enormous squared-off mountains, clearly man made. Surely this society had s many guys and s much spare time on its hands as to do this, they better not mess with them. They turned south and invaded there instead. If we contact extra-terrestrials, we send them our enormous primes. They realize we have so many idle computer and brains, they better be nice to us. They turn south and go invade Venus instead. spike Maybe they just give us the next 75 Mersenne numbers, and tell us to clear that piece of real estate they plan to settle. _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://users.skynet.be/hermandw/index.html _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Uses for large primes (Was: dissed again)
I guess I'm much more straightforward in my thinking... "why not?" :) We have all those unused cpu cycles, just itching for something to do besides run NOP loops... why not put that wasted electricity to use. I don't believe in ET's, and while some of the projects like the protein folding are interesting, they should at least get paid for using their computers to do research work like that since somewhere, sometime, someone's gonna make money out of whatever they come up with from that. :) Cracking cryptography is interesting, but the way they went about those projects, just throwing massive horsepower at a factoring problem, by trying every possible key combination... it certainly lacked finesse. It got the job done, but didn't really prove anything useful that we didn't already know (throw enough horsepower at cracking encryption and you can do it eventually... gee... who would have guessed that?) Something about the pure theory behind Mersenne primes has a certain sex appeal. The number itself is of little use, besides as a curiosity perhaps, just like knowing the billionth digit of pi. Then again, maybe we'll learn something about prime number distributions, Mersennes in particular, but you won't know until you find more of them to be able to make predictions to be able to formulate some formulas... :) Just never know... The algorithms used to test for primality have been advanced quite a bit, and it's a good thing that Mssrs. Lucas and Lehmer didn't just throw up their hands and say "well, it's of little practical use to find mersenne primes, so why bother". The LL algorithm is pretty neat, and I can only imagine that it has some practical applications elsewhere, besides looking for big prime numbers. Maybe not, what do I know, I'm just a sys admin with a mild fascination with math. :) Aaron -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:mersenne-invalid-reply-address@;base.com] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 10:17 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Mersenne: Uses for large primes (Was: dissed again) Del Brand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime >numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. Well, the prime numbers GIMPS has discovered are so overwhelmingly large as to make them completely impractical for (present-day) cryptographic purposes that the old saw about "more secure cryptography" doesn't hold water. I always tell people that it's not the numbers themselves that are of practical importance - rather, it's the algorithms that are developed to manipulate them efficiently that are important. For example, efficient large-integer arithmetic is important both in basic number-theoretic research and in applications such as cryptography. Fast transform arithmetic (which we use to perform the large-integer multiplies that are the rate-limiting operation in most primality-testing algorithms) has a huge range of applicability, from the signal processing that goes on every time one makes a call on a mobile phone to analysis of scientific data. Being able to squeeze a factor of 2-5x in speed out of one's CPU (the typical speed ratio of the GIMPS' clients' FFTs versus various "industry standard" FFTs like that in Numerical Recipes or the like) via a well-crafted hardware implementation of the algorithm is also a useful thing. Personally, I need no immediate practical justification - I just find working at the interface between number theory and computer science to be endlessly fascinating - but for those who do, there is no lack of such. Cheers, -Ernst _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Mersenne: Uses for large primes (Was: dissed again)
Del Brand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime >numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. Well, the prime numbers GIMPS has discovered are so overwhelmingly large as to make them completely impractical for (present-day) cryptographic purposes that the old saw about "more secure cryptography" doesn't hold water. I always tell people that it's not the numbers themselves that are of practical importance - rather, it's the algorithms that are developed to manipulate them efficiently that are important. For example, efficient large-integer arithmetic is important both in basic number-theoretic research and in applications such as cryptography. Fast transform arithmetic (which we use to perform the large-integer multiplies that are the rate-limiting operation in most primality-testing algorithms) has a huge range of applicability, from the signal processing that goes on every time one makes a call on a mobile phone to analysis of scientific data. Being able to squeeze a factor of 2-5x in speed out of one's CPU (the typical speed ratio of the GIMPS' clients' FFTs versus various "industry standard" FFTs like that in Numerical Recipes or the like) via a well-crafted hardware implementation of the algorithm is also a useful thing. Personally, I need no immediate practical justification - I just find working at the interface between number theory and computer science to be endlessly fascinating - but for those who do, there is no lack of such. Cheers, -Ernst
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
At 11:35 AM 10/23/02 -0400, you wrote: Crunching for distributed computing projects can be thrilling. Watching the number of work units you put out per day can make you excited about your throughput. The work pours in quickly and the results leave even faster. I want a computer JUST LIKE THAT. ;-) _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
Here is something I intend to put up on the web shortly to address the problem of "why gimps?" Please feel free to use, plagerize, or rewrite this in the hopes that it brings in at least one new member to the project. Why donate your computer cycles to GIMPS? I could give you technical reasons for crunching for GIMPS, but I wont. Most people arent interested in them, though they exist and are quite persuasive. I find the psychological reasons far more compelling because, in the end, these are the reasons you will stay with the project. Tell me something I dont know. There is something very gratifying about knowing the actual outcome of your work unit. A GIMPS client returns very definite results. If you trial factor an exponent successfully, it will not only tell you so but give you the factor that it found. If you Lucas-Lehmer test an exponent, you will know that it is, or isnt, prime because it actually tells you. Results are forever. You can always refer back to them at any time. Twenty years down the road you will be able to state with certainty that you proved that suchand-such a Mersenne number was composite. This is not the case of most other distributed computing projects. You will never have a screen that pops up and tells you that you just found E.T. You will endlessly process work unit after work unit and never will you be able to distinguish between the first one and the ten-thousandth. Anthropomorphic personification. Crunching for distributed computing projects can be thrilling. Watching the number of work units you put out per day can make you excited about your throughput. The work pours in quickly and the results leave even faster. GIMPS is a different sort of project for it is slow and deliberate. The work units are so unlike most others projects that we dont even call them work units at all. We call them exponents or assignments because the term work unit isnt personal enough. With todays computers these exponents can take anywhere between two days to two months to complete. Running a Lucas-Lehmer test on a 33M (a Lucas-Lehmer exponent that is in the thirty-three million range or, when expanded, is a ten million digit number) is an intimate process. You will probably have to trial factor it. Then it passes into L1 factoring stage 1, on to L1 stage 2, and finally it spends weeks on the Lucas-Lehmer testing. All the while you watch it slowly mature. The exponent ceases to be a mathematical representation of an integer but instead takes on a life all its own. It is a life that you and your computer nourish with CPU cycles. Even though you know that only a tiny fraction of the Lucas-Lehmer test could possibly have been performed, you check on it several times a day just in case something goes wrong. You get to know it like a friend. You can recite it by number and you remember it long after the result of the test has been sent in to Prime Net. No other distributed computing project comes close to this level of emotional attachment for the cruncher. The time invested on each exponent is what makes GIMPS special. It teaches the user patience and perseverance. Devotion and loyalty soon follow. Its quiet... too quiet. Another unique aspect of GIMPS is that you can use the client program to search for prime numbers completely on your own. You do not have to go through the server to get your assignments, nor do you have to use the manual web pages. You can, at any time, test any exponent that you wish. The results will be reported to you in the normal fashion, at which point you simply test another one at your leisure. This allows you to do your own search, testing your own range of exponents, building up your own data sheet of results with no one else the wiser. You can be like the mathematicians of old, working in solitude, hoping to find that one number that will put them in the history books. Should you find a one, you will be accredited, along with the project programmer who after all did write the application. Alas, Horatio, I knew him well. The greatness of a distributed computing project isnt dependant on the kind of work it researches, but rather the quality of its client program. This is in turn influenced solely by the competence of the programmer behind it. Some distributed computing projects have client programs that are rarely updated, or worse still, that are rewritten by the users because the programmer himself is not talented enough to handle the job. GIMPS George Woltman is a singular man in this respect. Easily reachable by any and all who want to talk to him, he listens to the needs of his crunchers. He continually seeks to optimize the clients code, often rewriting it completely for every new instruction set that is released. If a bug is found then it is fixed. If you have a suggestion then he will listen. He just plain takes the time and effort. All of this is because he is passionate abo
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
Del S. Brand wrote: I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. Any ideas? D.Brand Del S. Brand wrote: I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. Any ideas? D.Brand Its a universal defense mechanism, similar to the Egyption pyramids. When invaders wandered into Egypt, they saw these enormous squared-off mountains, clearly man made. Surely this society had s many guys and s much spare time on its hands as to do this, they better not mess with them. They turned south and invaded there instead. If we contact extra-terrestrials, we send them our enormous primes. They realize we have so many idle computer and brains, they better be nice to us. They turn south and go invade Venus instead. spike _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Dissed again
> The reason that this answe ris somewhat of a lie is that the > prime numbers > used in cryptography are usually NOT the "largest prime > numbers in the > world" at the time, nor too close to it. (It'd be easy to > crack such keys > if they were limited to the 1000 largest primes -- then > you're down to a > trial and error set of about a million combinations). Actually, it's about a thousand times easier than that if all you want to do is break a particular key. Use trial division by each of a thousand primes and see which gives no remainder. You get the other prime for free. Actually, it's even easier than that! The thousand largest primes are of disparate lengths. A table containing the lengths of the million possible combinations would be both small and easy to search. Look up the length of the key and you will usually know which two primes produced it and no division is required. Where two or more combinations give the same length of key, one single-precision multiplication of the leading few bits of the primes concerned will usually distinguish between them and no multiprecision arithmetic is required. Paul _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Dissed again
At 12:14 AM 10/23/02 -0700, you wrote: I always get asked what is the purpose or use for such large prime numbers. Since I'm not a math geek, I don't know what to tell them. The stock answer is usually somewhat of a lie. Huge prime numbers are useful in cryptography and and encryption, and helps to make data more secure. This is because one of the common encryption methods is to create a "key" using two very large prime numbers multiplied together. To read the encrypted message one would need both of the original prime numbers. Without the ability to factor that product into the original prime numbers, the message is unreadable. The reason that this answe ris somewhat of a lie is that the prime numbers used in cryptography are usually NOT the "largest prime numbers in the world" at the time, nor too close to it. (It'd be easy to crack such keys if they were limited to the 1000 largest primes -- then you're down to a trial and error set of about a million combinations). _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re[2]: Mersenne: Dissed again
hi, Tuesday, October 22, 2002, 8:40:08 PM, "Jeff Woods" wrote: > Either they were really great activists in signing people up, or GIMPS has > SOMETHING about it that won't get people to participate. We either need > to step up our profile, be more active at recruiting, or do SOMETHING to > get us off the static bubble we've been on, at about 18,000 members, 31,000 > computers, and falling. Our output goes up ONLY because most of our > members upgrade as CPUs get better and cheaper. as i said some years ago: GIMPS misses sex-appeal! make it look cooler, hipper, with status graphs, prime server statistics, etc. it must LOOK scientific! WE may know that scientific stuff doesn't look like it, but the average user does not. (s)he might want something that looks like from the movies. look at SETI, then look at GIMPS. no wonder people don't sign up. if the UI is basically all you have (since there are so very seldom results, like once a month or so), then the UI is the thing you have to invest into. it is all you have. it is all that the users gets. please comment... /chris/ _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: On v18 factoring
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:52:54 +, "Brian J. Beesley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Other people have mentioned the possibility of "automatically" disengaging or >updating the client. I have very serious reservations about this; the problem >is that it leaves the system hosting the client wide open to use of the >mechanism for malicious purposes, e.g. "updating" to a client containing a >trojan or switching it to a different project, or attacking a user by >disengaging his systems so that you can leapfrog him in the league tables. I am aware of several linux distributions which do the exact same thing (in fact I am not aware of any widely popular one which doesn't). However, they require the user to initiate the update. Would you be more comfortable if that was done, as well as some sort of signature on the update files? Nathan _ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
