Re: MC Book-other ideas

[Geoff Canyon]

At 10:52 AM 10/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>One possibility (maybe more easily doable, probably less fraught with 
>ownership issues, and certainly more current, than a book) would be to 
>create a MC documentation site similar to the one for MySQL (see 
>http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/index.html ). In that site, each docs page 
>allows registered webusers to add comments at the end. Check it out - some 
>are very helpful, sometimes taking the form of a conversation. Here's an 
>example: http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/Variables.html

The wiki will allow you to do that without a registration, and you can edit 
the actual page -- or add comments if that's all you want to do. I've put 
up an outline at 

regards,

Geoff


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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[Geoff Canyon]

At 03:38 PM 10/4/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>1. Wouldn't this be a good use of a Wiki? Karl B., are you able to set up 
>a Wiki rather than a website?

There is already a Wiki available. Currently it contains the entirety of 
the Revolution documentation, as well as some other material that has been 
added. It's at  and everyone is free 
to add pages as they choose.

gc


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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[andu]

--On Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:34:59 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


> I have to admit, although I'd love to have such a book Andu makes some
> good  points. This has come up on the list before and nothing has come of
> it. An  online strategy is good, but Richard's point about hosting issues
> is well  taken. So here's another idea. Maybe we could contribute to
> Revolution's "Tip  of the week"  just to get things going and see where
> it goes from there? If  we develop a good method for getting things
> written, then maybe we can  consolidate what's done and expand to more
> extensive documentation. Anyone  from Revolution care to comment on the
> idea?  Maybe Scott would be willing to  add something similar to the MC
> site.

Tim is getting it. Richard's point only confirms that without a strong 
incentive things go nowhere.
RR will see the benefits in attracting more traffic to their site and 
invest in replacing their tips page with a more extended database as 
discussed before.
If they could also mention Metacard by name so that MC users don't feel 
intruding...

> --Tim Bleiler
> University at Buffalo
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Regards, Andu Novac
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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[Richard MacLemale]

Andu writes, 

> These users 
> although very helpful on the mailing list don't seem to be the kind of
> crowd to invest a lot of time and energy in activities which don't present
> some possibility of profit

And Phil writes,
> One possibility (maybe more easily doable, probably less fraught with
> ownership issues, and certainly more current, than a book) would be to create
> a MC documentation site similar to the one for MySQL (see
> http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/index.html ).

I agree with Andu that we're not going to get a high percentage of MC users
to contribute, but I disagree with the generalization that we won't be
willing to invest a lot of time and energy.  Some of us would.  I would.

The idea of doing a documentation site IS better, except for one detail...
It would have to be hosted by MetaCard itself, or it would not work...
Meaning that smart people would be reluctant to put a lot of time and energy
into updating a db on a site that may vanish in 6 months.  We did this in
the Macintosh Manager world... A bunch of people all contributed to this
guy's troubleshooting db, and the thing disappeared a few months later.
I'll never, never do that again.  I'd only post if it were hosted by
MetaCard.  Another alternative would be if it were hosted like 5 or 6
different places (mirrored) and MetaCard kept a list of the mirrors posted.
That would work (but would require a whole lot more effort.)  A third would
be for MetaCard to fund someone else hosting it.  Then it wouldn't be on
their "official" site, but we'd have a promise that it wouldn't vanish in
the wind.  My 2 bits per usual...

-- 
:)
Richard MacLemale
Network Administrator
J. W. Mitchell High School

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RE: MC Book-other ideas

[eric engle]

I am an academic and need to publish so I would be
interested in either contributing some stacks (with
commentary, i.e. explanation) or editing. 


=
My Web sites:
http://www.lexnet.bravepages.com/ind.htm (law)
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Help! I need to buy a copy of code warrior pro version 4 (i.e. with pascal) for x86 
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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[andu]

--On Friday, October 04, 2002 22:58:39 -0500 Karl Becker 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Interesting... I do not know what a WIKI is, though I saw someone else
> mention something about it awhile back.  If you're willing to host
> whatever this thing is, that would be great!

In simple terms WIKI is a web site which allows users to edit the content. 
It seems so cool but... They say it is beneficial for group work, 
communications, etc., etc..
I'm beginning to believe those millions of people you see talking on 
portable phones everywhere and almost continuously have indeed so much to 
communicate among themselves that yet another means like WIKI was indeed 
necessary just so that they can catch up with whatever they missed on the 
phone, email, p2p, instant messaging, beeper, answering machine, weblog, 
smoke, mirrors...

>
> PHP.net's reference I love - a user-comments system would just be great.

That I agree and wouldn't mind updating once in a while. Basically a web 
based database of MC knowledge.

>
> I think, as andu said, that people on the list are more
> business/profit-oriented.  I don't want to discourage the idea of it
> being open-source, but as he said, it would probably have to provide a
> little incentive for the writers.  I think making a really quality book
> and getting it published would be a good incentive, since we'd all have
> that to put on our resumes.
>
> I'd love to see a book like this happen though, yes...
>
> Karl
>
>
> On Friday, October 4, 2002, at 08:14  PM, Chipp Walters wrote:
>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> I own a company which sells a Content Management System called
>> Hemingway. It
>> stores data including files and pictures...kinda like blogging and
>> WIKI's on
>> steroids. It builds websites with the data -- and at anytime you can
>> move
>> things around and replace them. There are a number of other features
>> as well
>> including a RunRev client which can automatically post content to
>> websites
>> (view a demo of this client at:
>> http://www.altuit.com/webs/hemingway/HemTools/ItemWizard.htm
>>
>> This isn't a sales call :-) , but rather an offer to host for free the
>> opensource RunRev/MC book effort. If interested let me know and I'll
>> set it
>> up and issue the necessary privileges.
>>
>> best,
>>
>> Chipp Walters
>> www.altuit.com
>>
>> ___
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>>
> --
> Go Bison!
> http://www.karlbecker.com
>
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Regards, Andu Novac
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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[Karl Becker]

Interesting... I do not know what a WIKI is, though I saw someone else 
mention something about it awhile back.  If you're willing to host 
whatever this thing is, that would be great!

PHP.net's reference I love - a user-comments system would just be great.

I think, as andu said, that people on the list are more 
business/profit-oriented.  I don't want to discourage the idea of it 
being open-source, but as he said, it would probably have to provide a 
little incentive for the writers.  I think making a really quality book 
and getting it published would be a good incentive, since we'd all have 
that to put on our resumes.

I'd love to see a book like this happen though, yes...

Karl


On Friday, October 4, 2002, at 08:14  PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> I own a company which sells a Content Management System called 
> Hemingway. It
> stores data including files and pictures...kinda like blogging and 
> WIKI's on
> steroids. It builds websites with the data -- and at anytime you can 
> move
> things around and replace them. There are a number of other features 
> as well
> including a RunRev client which can automatically post content to 
> websites
> (view a demo of this client at:
> http://www.altuit.com/webs/hemingway/HemTools/ItemWizard.htm
>
> This isn't a sales call :-) , but rather an offer to host for free the
> opensource RunRev/MC book effort. If interested let me know and I'll 
> set it
> up and issue the necessary privileges.
>
> best,
>
> Chipp Walters
> www.altuit.com
>
> ___
> metacard mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
--
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http://www.karlbecker.com

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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[andu]

--On Friday, October 04, 2002 15:12:20 -0700 erik hansen 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> --- andu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> The wealth of information and tutorials and
>> free code users of perl, php,
>> python, etc. enjoy will never be matched by
>> metacarders unless:
>> a) Raney looses his mind
>
> looses or loses?

Loses ;-)

>
> =
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.erikhansen.org
>
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Regards, Andu Novac
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RE: MC Book-other ideas

[Chipp Walters]

Hey guys,

I own a company which sells a Content Management System called Hemingway. It
stores data including files and pictures...kinda like blogging and WIKI's on
steroids. It builds websites with the data -- and at anytime you can move
things around and replace them. There are a number of other features as well
including a RunRev client which can automatically post content to websites
(view a demo of this client at:
http://www.altuit.com/webs/hemingway/HemTools/ItemWizard.htm

This isn't a sales call :-) , but rather an offer to host for free the
opensource RunRev/MC book effort. If interested let me know and I'll set it
up and issue the necessary privileges.

best,

Chipp Walters
www.altuit.com

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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[erik hansen]

--- andu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> The wealth of information and tutorials and
> free code users of perl, php, 
> python, etc. enjoy will never be matched by
> metacarders unless:
> a) Raney looses his mind

looses or loses?

=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.erikhansen.org

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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[John Vokey]

I agree with Tim.  Open source book writing would be especially useful 
because scripters using a particular OS could take the result posted by 
one OS user and write the corrections/additions for another.  In that 
way, 3 (4? 5?), OS-specific but otherwise identical books would be 
available without all OS-specific stuff for an OS a scripter is not 
using or doesn't care about.  However, in addition to solutions, I 
think anyone could and should take a shot at writing sections of text, 
not just code.

On Friday, October 4, 2002, at 10:03  AM, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> The fastest way to get such a book would be for members of this list to
> submit their solutions to various challenges to an editor(s). If 
> someone with
> good writing skills could volunteer to be the editor, that would be 
> great.
>
> Another way might be to "write the book" through this list. Many of us 
> would
> have to do a little work, but that might be more practical than one of 
> us
> trying to find the time to do a lot of work. To begin, we'd have to 
> come up
> with a list of chapters; there was a good start in an earlier post. 
> Then,
> people who "know the answers" could post their solutions. One of the 
> people
> who understands the content and can write fairly well would have to 
> volunteer
> to consolidate the solutions into a chapter. They could then post the 
> chapter
> for review by the members of the list. If this is deemed an 
> inappropriate use
> of the list, most of the work could be shifted off list. Think of it 
> as open
> source book writing.
>
> Tim Bleiler
> University at Buffalo
>
-- 
John R. Vokey, Ph.D.   |\  _,,,---,,_
Professor  /,`.-'`'-.  ;-;;,_
Department of Psychology and Neuroscience  |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'
University of Lethbridge  '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)

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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[Phil Davis]

To expand on the DB backend website idea: 

One possibility (maybe more easily doable, probably less fraught with ownership 
issues, and certainly more current, than a book) would be to create a MC documentation 
site similar to the one for MySQL (see http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/index.html ). In 
that site, each docs page allows registered webusers to add comments at the end. Check 
it out - some are very helpful, sometimes taking the form of a conversation. Here's an 
example: http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/Variables.html

If docs pages allowed readers to add comments, we could all add our notes to the parts 
we've learned best, and pretty soon we'll have something *very* helpful.

(I personally think the MySQL doc site is a good model of how to do it right.)

Phil


- Original Message - 
From: "Karl Becker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: MC Book-other ideas


> Would a website with a database backend (the guy who made mctools.org, 
> this would be a great use of those mad database skills ;-) ) be the 
> best way to work this out, or would simply posting to some email list 
> be better?  I almost think the email would be easier, since it would be 
> more in-my-face instead of requiring me to type in some URL.
> 
> I also am willing to forward my problems/solutions, as well.  I tend to 
> think I have a pretty good grasp of this crazy English language, so I'd 
> be happy to be an editor.  Of course, cutting/editing people's work is 
> always a touchy subject, so everyone would have to know that all the 
> editors are simply doing their job if they cut/rearrange an article.  
> Editing isn't a personal slam, unless you have a mean, 
> personally-slamming editor!
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> On Friday, October 4, 2002, at 12:31  PM, Ray Horsley wrote:
> 
> > on 10/4/02 7:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> The fastest way to get such a book would be for members of this list 
> >> to
> >> submit their solutions to various challenges to an editor(s). If 
> >> someone with
> >> good writing skills could volunteer to be the editor, that would be 
> >> great.
> >>
> >> Another way might be to "write the book" through this list. Many of 
> >> us would
> >> have to do a little work, but that might be more practical than one 
> >> of us
> >> trying to find the time to do a lot of work. To begin, we'd have to 
> >> come up
> >> with a list of chapters; there was a good start in an earlier post. 
> >> Then,
> >> people who "know the answers" could post their solutions. One of the 
> >> people
> >> who understands the content and can write fairly well would have to 
> >> volunteer
> >> to consolidate the solutions into a chapter. They could then post the 
> >> chapter
> >> for review by the members of the list. If this is deemed an 
> >> inappropriate use
> >> of the list, most of the work could be shifted off list. Think of it 
> >> as open
> >> source book writing.
> >>
> >> Tim Bleiler
> >> University at Buffalo
> >> ___
> >> metacard mailing list
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
> >>
> >
> > I think this is a good idea.  I'm certainly willing to forward my own
> > problems/solutions to such an effort.
> >
> > Ray Horsley
> > Developer, LinkIt1
> >
> > ___
> > metacard mailing list
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
> >
> >
> --
> Go Bison!
> http://www.karlbecker.com
> 
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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[andu]

--On Friday, October 04, 2002 11:36:15 -0500 Karl Becker 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Would a website with a database backend (the guy who made mctools.org,
> this would be a great use of those mad database skills ;-) ) be the best
> way to work this out, or would simply posting to some email list be
> better?  I almost think the email would be easier, since it would be more
> in-my-face instead of requiring me to type in some URL.
>
> I also am willing to forward my problems/solutions, as well.  I tend to
> think I have a pretty good grasp of this crazy English language, so I'd
> be happy to be an editor.  Of course, cutting/editing people's work is
> always a touchy subject, so everyone would have to know that all the
> editors are simply doing their job if they cut/rearrange an article.
> Editing isn't a personal slam, unless you have a mean,
> personally-slamming editor!
>
> Karl
>

This issue keeps coming up every once in a while and the outcome is always 
the same.
The need is obvious, learning from others' experience which is beneficial 
to users of all levels but particularly newbies.
The difficulty I see in moving beyond status quo (qvo in Latin) is the very 
nature of Metacard: close enough to Hypercard which had a huge following 
due to its ease of use and low price but expansive enough to be treated as 
a business investment and have a limited number of users. These users 
although very helpful on the mailing list don't seem to be the kind of 
crowd to invest a lot of time and energy in activities which don't present 
some possibility of profit, unlike the ones using "free" tools who are 
motivated and justified to "give back" since it comes with the territory.
Of course, these are generalities but the fact that after all this time the 
only 2 sources of documentation and/or tutorials on Metacard are whatever 
is built into the product and this mailing list despite requests for more, 
tends to enforce my speculations. I'm not counting tech support which is 
not free.
I believe the only hope for that much desired book or web site or database 
to materialize is for someone to see a profit at the end of hers/his effort.
The wealth of information and tutorials and free code users of perl, php, 
python, etc. enjoy will never be matched by metacarders unless:
a) Raney looses his mind or
b) Raney joins a religious group which is into giving or
c) Metacard becomes so popular (like Photoshop) that documentation for it 
becomes profitable or
d) Somebody puts Java where it belongs (in the garbage) or
e) Some other miracle


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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[Richard MacLemale]

> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Think of it as open
> source book writing.
> 
> Tim Bleiler
> University at Buffalo


YES.  Count me in.  I'd love to contribute.  I've posted some mc specific
directions on our school website, but it would be great to have a book
available that we could all work on.  When people are interested in
MetaCard, I can say that the mailing list is a great resource, but having a
book available with extensive knowledge would be awesome.

Distribution will be debated here, no doubt, so here's my 2 cents - The
book, when finished, should be available in PDF format for free
(downloadable from metacard.com), or you should be able to order a printed
copy of it for a modest cost from... wherever.  The cost of the printed
version should be enough to cover the expenses (and time) of printing and
mailing the thing.

Really, really good idea, Tim.  There isn't enough market for someone to
write a 400 page book by themselves, but if we all chip in, it's certainly
possible.  


-- 
:)
Richard MacLemale
Network Administrator
J. W. Mitchell High School

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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[Karl Becker]

Would a website with a database backend (the guy who made mctools.org, 
this would be a great use of those mad database skills ;-) ) be the 
best way to work this out, or would simply posting to some email list 
be better?  I almost think the email would be easier, since it would be 
more in-my-face instead of requiring me to type in some URL.

I also am willing to forward my problems/solutions, as well.  I tend to 
think I have a pretty good grasp of this crazy English language, so I'd 
be happy to be an editor.  Of course, cutting/editing people's work is 
always a touchy subject, so everyone would have to know that all the 
editors are simply doing their job if they cut/rearrange an article.  
Editing isn't a personal slam, unless you have a mean, 
personally-slamming editor!

Karl


On Friday, October 4, 2002, at 12:31  PM, Ray Horsley wrote:

> on 10/4/02 7:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> The fastest way to get such a book would be for members of this list 
>> to
>> submit their solutions to various challenges to an editor(s). If 
>> someone with
>> good writing skills could volunteer to be the editor, that would be 
>> great.
>>
>> Another way might be to "write the book" through this list. Many of 
>> us would
>> have to do a little work, but that might be more practical than one 
>> of us
>> trying to find the time to do a lot of work. To begin, we'd have to 
>> come up
>> with a list of chapters; there was a good start in an earlier post. 
>> Then,
>> people who "know the answers" could post their solutions. One of the 
>> people
>> who understands the content and can write fairly well would have to 
>> volunteer
>> to consolidate the solutions into a chapter. They could then post the 
>> chapter
>> for review by the members of the list. If this is deemed an 
>> inappropriate use
>> of the list, most of the work could be shifted off list. Think of it 
>> as open
>> source book writing.
>>
>> Tim Bleiler
>> University at Buffalo
>> ___
>> metacard mailing list
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
>>
>
> I think this is a good idea.  I'm certainly willing to forward my own
> problems/solutions to such an effort.
>
> Ray Horsley
> Developer, LinkIt1
>
> ___
> metacard mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
>
--
Go Bison!
http://www.karlbecker.com

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Re: MC Book-other ideas

[Ray Horsley]

on 10/4/02 7:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> The fastest way to get such a book would be for members of this list to
> submit their solutions to various challenges to an editor(s). If someone with
> good writing skills could volunteer to be the editor, that would be great.
> 
> Another way might be to "write the book" through this list. Many of us would
> have to do a little work, but that might be more practical than one of us
> trying to find the time to do a lot of work. To begin, we'd have to come up
> with a list of chapters; there was a good start in an earlier post. Then,
> people who "know the answers" could post their solutions. One of the people
> who understands the content and can write fairly well would have to volunteer
> to consolidate the solutions into a chapter. They could then post the chapter
> for review by the members of the list. If this is deemed an inappropriate use
> of the list, most of the work could be shifted off list. Think of it as open
> source book writing.
> 
> Tim Bleiler
> University at Buffalo
> ___
> metacard mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
> 

I think this is a good idea.  I'm certainly willing to forward my own
problems/solutions to such an effort.

Ray Horsley
Developer, LinkIt1

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