Re: Reading raw data

[Richard Gaskin]

Kevin Miller wrote:

>> Michael Kann wrote:
>> 
>>> Richard, if your business analysis is correct why
>>> don't you license the engine from Scott as the
>>> Revolutionaries are doing, toss in your $10k for the
>>> improved GUI, then sell at least a hundred copies of
>>> GaskinCard. You could buy that second house instead of
>>> Scott.
>> 
>> I considered that a while ago, before I learned of Revolution.  A third UI
>> in the mix would sorely fragment things, I believe.  Rev seems to be coming
>> together well, and it may well satisfy peoples' request for a slicker, more
>> HIG-compliant UI.  But until the word spreads about Revolution, there will
>> continue to be feedback on the UI of the sort I was replying to.
> 
> Well, I would agree that improving the interface is important to improve
> sales.  But there is a lot more to it than that, and the sums involved to
> bring the UI up to scratch are way out of the $10,000 order of magnitude.
> Not to mention the work we're doing on databases, K-12 and other areas (as
> Scott recently mentioned here).  The kind of developer that MetaCard appeals
> to right now isn't going to be much affected by a limited $10,000 UI
> improvement, and its certainly not enough to bring the user experience up to
> the mass market level.

The sum of what you're accomplishing with Rev indeed costs more than $10,000
to build, and is well worth it.  By including dozens of powerful features
not found in the MetaCard development environment, Revolution is a very
different product which is likely to appeal to a great many more people than
the 100 or so lost sales I was referring to.

What I was referring to was not so much new sales, but "lost" sales: what I
might call "fence sitters", already proficient in xTalk and looking for a
cool tool, but turned off by MC's UNIX-flavored development UI.  For them, a
friendlier UI would have made a difference.   What I was referring to was an
incremental expansion of MetaCard's user base, still largely addressing the
personality type attracted to it today, just a few more of 'em.

Revolution solves a very different problem.  The cooler-than-Toolbook UI
housing so many valuable utilities could well take the MetaCard engine into
wholly new markets.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web
 _
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com
 Tel: 323-225-3717   ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716



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Re: Reading raw data

[Kevin Miller]

On 12/5/01 6:53 pm, Scott Raney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> But what we'd *really* like to see is for other ISVs to license the
> engine to build products for markets that MetaCard only tangentially
> competes in now.  The one that's currently really crying out for
> something like this is K12 education, where the dominant multimedia
> authoring products like HyperStudio and Digital Chisel are suffering
> from severe neglect by their owners and are rapidly losing market
> share to psuedo-alternatives like Powerpoint and HTML editors.

And, as you know, this is a top portion of the business model for Revolution
- we will be having a "K-12" guide pack produced which covers the principals
of programming for beginners, as well as focusing some of our marketing on
the educational market (e.g. we will be attending major educational trade
shows, etc.)

> Another example is end-user database products like Filemaker and
> Access which because they lack a decent scripting language are much
> more limited than something like MetaCard + a database back end would
> be.  

Again, this is is a top priority for Revolution and a set of database
drivers is going to be rolled out in conjunction with Rev 1.0.

> Other opportunities include CBT (Computer Based Training) and
> HTTP server add-ons (though Simon himself at least is working hard on
> the latter ;-)

Not wishing to dissapoint anyone, we're looking at this stuff too...

>> Anyhow, as for RunRev, I can understand a royalty deal, but not
>> leasing the engine, I can't get my mind around how this could help
>> Scott (unless they renew every 3 months!!! =)
> 
> The license is per-copy, so "royalty" is a better description of the
> arrangement.  And while I appreciate Richard's concern and desire for
> us to increase our revenues, he really needn't worry.  If the next 9
> years are anything at all like the last 9 have been, I'll still be
> retiring very early ;-)

Our aim is to *expand* the MetaCard market and make *new* sales.  We have
enough beta testers and market data to be able to say with confidence that
this is exactly what we expect to happen.

Regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Runtime Revolution Limited - Power to the Developer!
Tel: +44 (0)131 718 4333.  Fax: +44 (0)1639 830 707.


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Re: Reading raw data

[Kevin Miller]

On 12/5/01 5:23 am, Richard Gaskin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Michael Kann wrote:
> 
>> Richard, if your business analysis is correct why
>> don't you license the engine from Scott as the
>> Revolutionaries are doing, toss in your $10k for the
>> improved GUI, then sell at least a hundred copies of
>> GaskinCard. You could buy that second house instead of
>> Scott.
> 
> I considered that a while ago, before I learned of Revolution.  A third UI
> in the mix would sorely fragment things, I believe.  Rev seems to be coming
> together well, and it may well satisfy peoples' request for a slicker, more
> HIG-compliant UI.  But until the word spreads about Revolution, there will
> continue to be feedback on the UI of the sort I was replying to.

Well, I would agree that improving the interface is important to improve
sales.  But there is a lot more to it than that, and the sums involved to
bring the UI up to scratch are way out of the $10,000 order of magnitude.
Not to mention the work we're doing on databases, K-12 and other areas (as
Scott recently mentioned here).  The kind of developer that MetaCard appeals
to right now isn't going to be much affected by a limited $10,000 UI
improvement, and its certainly not enough to bring the user experience up to
the mass market level.

As far as getting it out there goes, we are certainly doing that.  You'll
hear more about Revolution after we release it - we have been offered some
major and decent publicity, and have are also getting some assistance from
the likes of Apple.  The lag people have seen since the last beta has been
because we're putting proper marketing and support strategies in place to
deal with the overwhelming response we've had.  We'll release when we're
fully ready to do so - Revolution itself is just about done.

We'll be at WWDC so please do come along and see us there.

Regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Runtime Revolution Limited - Power to the Developer!
Tel: +44 (0)131 718 4333.  Fax: +44 (0)1639 830 707.


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Re: Reading raw data

[Kevin Miller]

On 13/5/01 11:39 am, Terry Judd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Basically we lose money on each sale of RR if people buy that instead
>> of MC.  On the other hand we come out way ahead if RR appeals to a
>> different market segment than MetaCard.  Which I think is the whole
>> idea.
> 
> OK, I'm in the market for a MC-based authoring tool.  As a longtime
> SuperCard user I have to say that RunRev has more immediate appeal.
> So, what does MetaCard offer me that it doesn't? If it boasts
> features that RunRev lacks then what are they - while ease of use is
> important, in the long term flexibility and functionality are even
> more so.

Well, as we use the MetaCard engine and cost about the same as MetaCard but
have a new UI I would obviously recommend you purchase Revolution once its
out of beta!  Buying MetaCard direct does mean that you get the very latest
alpha and beta engines as they become available - but Rev will never
seriously lag a major engine *release* version.  And you will get a slightly
bumpy road purchasing Revolution with us *before* we come out of beta, as
we're pretty busy (hiring new staff, finishing the product, etc.).  We'll go
1.0 only when we have the new support structure fully in place and ready to
go though. 

Regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Runtime Revolution Limited - Power to the Developer!
Tel: +44 (0)131 718 4333.  Fax: +44 (0)1639 830 707.


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Re: Reading raw data

[Richard Gaskin]

Klaus Major wrote:

>> Funny you should mention AOL:  I was using AOL the other day, and it occured
>> to me that just about any of us could build the AOL client from scratch in
>> MetaCard for Mac, Win, and UNIX in a fraction of the time it takes AOL to
>> engineer a mere upgrade for a single platform.   ;)
> 
> that's very, very true :-)

Not to mention it would work more predictably (it seems there are control
redraw issues with the version of the NeoAccess engine they're currently
using, at least in the Mac version).

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web
 _
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com
 Tel: 323-225-3717   ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716



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Re: Reading raw data

[Klaus Major]

Hi Richard,

> andu wrote:
> 
>> How about an iMac Flower Power running Windows, with a 4 years AOL deal
>> for the internet and financing?
> 
> Funny you should mention AOL:  I was using AOL the other day, and it occured
> to me that just about any of us could build the AOL client from scratch in
> MetaCard for Mac, Win, and UNIX in a fraction of the time it takes AOL to
> engineer a mere upgrade for a single platform.   ;)

that's very, very true :-)


Regards

Klaus Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MetaScape GmbH


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Re: Reading raw data

[Pierre Sahores]

Michael Kann a écrit :
> 
> --- Pierre a écrit:
> 
> remember what Art Tatum can play for us with
> just one hand to imagine what Scott is building for us
> with two
> 
> -- there is an anecdote about Tatum that might apply.
> He's sitting in a bar when the piano player starts
> playing one of Tatum's tunes, imitating him. A friend
> of Tatum's walks over and says, "listen, he's playing
> that song just like you do, can't tell the difference,
> aren't you impressed?" Tatum replies, "nah, he can do
> what I can do, but he doesn't know why I do it."
> 

!!!, :-))) Pierre Sahores

WEB & VPN applications & databases servers
Inspection académique de Seine-Saint-Denis
Qualifier & produire l'avantage compétitif

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Re: Reading raw data

[Terry Judd]

>
>>  Well then what's the deal with Revolution?  I thought it was a GUI
>>  sitting on top of MC (ie, alone Revolution would not function, it
>>  requires mc to be present).
>
>It requires the MetaCard *engine*, but not the MetaCard *product*.
>
>>  But if they leased it then how can they sell the same functionality
>>  for a lower cost?  But even at the same price tag, how will this
>>  affect Scott's revenue if everyone goes to Revolution (hey, it's
>>  nicer and costs less).  I don't get the business angle here.
>
>Basically we lose money on each sale of RR if people buy that instead
>of MC.  On the other hand we come out way ahead if RR appeals to a
>different market segment than MetaCard.  Which I think is the whole
>idea.


OK, I'm in the market for a MC-based authoring tool.  As a longtime 
SuperCard user I have to say that RunRev has more immediate appeal. 
So, what does MetaCard offer me that it doesn't? If it boasts 
features that RunRev lacks then what are they - while ease of use is 
important, in the long term flexibility and functionality are even 
more so.

Terry...

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Re: Reading raw data

[Scott Raney]

Simon Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 > Well then what's the deal with Revolution?  I thought it was a GUI
 > sitting on top of MC (ie, alone Revolution would not function, it
 > requires mc to be present).

It requires the MetaCard *engine*, but not the MetaCard *product*.

 > But if they leased it then how can they sell the same functionality
 > for a lower cost?  But even at the same price tag, how will this
 > affect Scott's revenue if everyone goes to Revolution (hey, it's
 > nicer and costs less).  I don't get the business angle here.

Basically we lose money on each sale of RR if people buy that instead
of MC.  On the other hand we come out way ahead if RR appeals to a
different market segment than MetaCard.  Which I think is the whole
idea.

 > Well, they are likely going to be more successful than my run with
 > KingAuthor for SuperCard (and Richard's SCAuthor - woo hoo, that was
 > a while ago!!!), but I sure did sell a nice bundle of those before I
 > lost interest in Allegiant's leacherous tactics.  I think RunRev
 > will be a huge success for HyperCard and SuperCard users - GO GUYS!

We tried to get Bernard to port Tangerine from SuperCard, but he
passed up the offer.  Not really sure why, because we offered him a
*much* better deal than he got with SC (which was basically no deal at
all including no financial or engineering support).  Maybe he just
figured the commitment required was too much.  And after what happened
to his investment in SC, I guess I can't blame him (i.e., once burned,
twice shy).

I can sort of agree with Richard that just licensing the engine to
someone who would make minor improvements to the UI and resell it
under a different name would lead to dilution of the market and brand
name.  Which is not to say we wouldn't consider such a relationship,
because even this might be beneficial to some potential customers
(e.g., if the new UI and documentation included translation to some
other language).

But what we'd *really* like to see is for other ISVs to license the
engine to build products for markets that MetaCard only tangentially
competes in now.  The one that's currently really crying out for
something like this is K12 education, where the dominant multimedia
authoring products like HyperStudio and Digital Chisel are suffering
from severe neglect by their owners and are rapidly losing market
share to psuedo-alternatives like Powerpoint and HTML editors.
Another example is end-user database products like Filemaker and
Access which because they lack a decent scripting language are much
more limited than something like MetaCard + a database back end would
be.  Other opportunities include CBT (Computer Based Training) and
HTTP server add-ons (though Simon himself at least is working hard on
the latter ;-)

 > Anyhow, as for RunRev, I can understand a royalty deal, but not
 > leasing the engine, I can't get my mind around how this could help
 > Scott (unless they renew every 3 months!!! =)

The license is per-copy, so "royalty" is a better description of the
arrangement.  And while I appreciate Richard's concern and desire for
us to increase our revenues, he really needn't worry.  If the next 9
years are anything at all like the last 9 have been, I'll still be
retiring very early ;-)
   Regards,
 Scott

-- 

Scott Raney  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.metacard.com
MetaCard: You know, there's an easier way to do that...


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Re: Reading raw data

[Michael Kann]

--- Pierre a écrit:

remember what Art Tatum can play for us with
just one hand to imagine what Scott is building for us
with two

-- there is an anecdote about Tatum that might apply.
He's sitting in a bar when the piano player starts
playing one of Tatum's tunes, imitating him. A friend
of Tatum's walks over and says, "listen, he's playing
that song just like you do, can't tell the difference,
aren't you impressed?" Tatum replies, "nah, he can do
what I can do, but he doesn't know why I do it." 



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Re: Reading raw data

[Michael Kann]

--- Simon Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Well then what's the deal with Revolution?  If they
leased [the Metacard engine] then how can they sell
the same functionality for a lower cost?

-- Just curious. What is that lower cost that you
mention?

Thanks, Michael Kann

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Re: Reading raw data

[Pierre Sahores]

Richard Gaskin a écrit :
> 
> I believe that a modest $10k interface overhaul would likely bring in at
> least another hundred sales each year.  At $995 a pop, this would have a
> substantial beneficial impact on Scott Raney's lifestyle in his retirement
> years, and very likely make retirement an option far sooner.  If he's not
> into investing, it could deliver for him a stellar vacation at his choice of
> luxury hotels anywhere in the world, and over time could pay for a second
> home in Hawaii.
> 
> Based on such feedback I've heard directly, I believe that loosing a hundred
> sales a year from a the appearance of the development environment is a
> conservative estimate.
> 
> The biggest factor in this is not just "pretty pictures":  When folks see
> that the vendor's own UI looks so foreign to both Mac and Windows, they get
> the mistaken impression that their apps can look no better.  I've worked
> with it enough to know that's not a fair assessment, but that's the
> difference between an engineer and a marketer:  A good engineer looks at the
> _facts_, while a good marketer focuses on the _perception_ of those facts.
> 
> Scott is one of the finest engineers and technical managers I've ever
> witnessed, with solid business savvy as well.  If coupled with a person
> equally strong in marketing, and a willingness to allow his engineering to
> be at least partially driven by relevant marketing considerations, I believe
> his personal income would grow substantially, at least several times over
> the cost of such an investment.
> 
> While no one can predict such things, I'll wager that if MetaCard's UI were
> as strong as its engine, RealBASIC never would have been able to get enough
> funding to even consider a Windows port, so strong a competitor MC would
> make.
> 
> MC is arguably the most powerful virtual machine on the planet, potentially
> able to save the world's programmers several million person-hours every
> year.  At the moment, the world suffers a global productivity hit from MC
> allowing itself to be underestimated.
> 
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Media Corporation
>  Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web
>  _
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com
>  Tel: 323-225-3717   ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716
> 
> Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard@lists.runrev.com/
> Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm
> Please send bug reports to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, not this list.

Just to say i agree with 100% of what you say there, Richard. Just to say, i'm
fighting lots & lots, for each project i'm working on for the french secretary
of education and some others clients, to promote the use of Metacard as the most
usable background developpment tools to build Web & VPN apps & databases
servers, and, that's new, on-line updatables VPN browsers, alternatively usables
in both off-line and on-line modes.

In letting time to time, it's far sure that Scott will get any second residence
he could want to have all over the world (and why not in Hawai too), Richard...
Just remember what Art Tatum can play for us with just one hand to imagine what
Scott is building for us in using its two and lots more...

The HC spirit is greatly alive, there, and we have just to wait for some ones
more, for some time...

Kind Regards to all, Pierre Sahores

WEB & VPN applications & databases servers
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Re: Reading raw data

[Simon Lord]

Well then what's the deal with Revolution?  I thought it was a GUI 
sitting on top of MC (ie, alone Revolution would not function, it 
requires mc to be present).

But if they leased it then how can they sell the same functionality 
for a lower cost?  But even at the same price tag, how will this 
affect Scott's revenue if everyone goes to Revolution (hey, it's 
nicer and costs less).  I don't get the business angle here.

Well, they are likely going to be more successful than my run with 
KingAuthor for SuperCard (and Richard's SCAuthor - woo hoo, that was 
a while ago!!!), but I sure did sell a nice bundle of those before I 
lost interest in Allegiant's leacherous tactics.  I think RunRev will 
be a huge success for HyperCard and SuperCard users - GO GUYS!

Anyhow, as for RunRev, I can understand a royalty deal, but not 
leasing the engine, I can't get my mind around how this could help 
Scott (unless they renew every 3 months!!! =)

>Michael Kann wrote:
>
>>  Richard, if your business analysis is correct why
>>  don't you license the engine from Scott as the
>>  Revolutionaries are doing, toss in your $10k for the
>>  improved GUI, then sell at least a hundred copies of
>>  GaskinCard. You could buy that second house instead of
>>  Scott.
>
>I considered that a while ago, before I learned of Revolution.  A third UI
>in the mix would sorely fragment things, I believe.  Rev seems to be coming
>together well, and it may well satisfy peoples' request for a slicker, more
>HIG-compliant UI.  But until the word spreads about Revolution, there will
>continue to be feedback on the UI of the sort I was replying to.
>
>--
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Media Corporation
>  Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web
>  _
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com
>  Tel: 323-225-3717   ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716
>
>
>
>Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard@lists.runrev.com/
>Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm
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-- 


Cheers,
Simon

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Re: Reading raw data

[Simon Lord]

Actually this is an idea we already proposed to a client of ours for 
*internalized* training.  Basically you can have an environment 
whereby the viewer gets his *AOL* stack which allows him to connect 
to the web.  This *AOL* stack is nothing except the MC engine.  But 
on startup it looks to the server (IE mine) for information to tell 
the clients, they get stacks, daily news, new training stacks, all 
automatically downloaded and opened on their computer, they can chat, 
view movies, listen to audio etc.

Yes, it would be very easy to do.  Now, just need to find that magic 
potion I have for carving 29 hours out of a 24 hour day...


>andu wrote:
>
>>  How about an iMac Flower Power running Windows, with a 4 years AOL deal
>>  for the internet and financing?
>
>Funny you should mention AOL:  I was using AOL the other day, and it occured
>to me that just about any of us could build the AOL client from scratch in
>MetaCard for Mac, Win, and UNIX in a fraction of the time it takes AOL to
>engineer a mere upgrade for a single platform.   ;)
>
>--
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Media Corporation
>  Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web
>  _
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com
>  Tel: 323-225-3717   ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716
>
>
>
>Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard@lists.runrev.com/
>Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm
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-- 


Cheers,
Simon

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Re: Reading raw data

[andu]

Richard Gaskin wrote:
> 
> andu wrote:
> 
> > How about an iMac Flower Power running Windows, with a 4 years AOL deal
> > for the internet and financing?
> 
> Funny you should mention AOL:  I was using AOL the other day, and it occured
> to me that just about any of us could build the AOL client from scratch in
> MetaCard for Mac, Win, and UNIX in a fraction of the time it takes AOL to
> engineer a mere upgrade for a single platform.   ;)

What makes you think they *are not* using MC for their contraption? Ah,
the size. Maybe they are just not good at it. ;-)

> 
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Media Corporation
>  Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web
>  _
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com
>  Tel: 323-225-3717   ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716

Andu

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Re: Reading raw data

[Richard Gaskin]

Michael Kann wrote:

> Richard, if your business analysis is correct why
> don't you license the engine from Scott as the
> Revolutionaries are doing, toss in your $10k for the
> improved GUI, then sell at least a hundred copies of
> GaskinCard. You could buy that second house instead of
> Scott.

I considered that a while ago, before I learned of Revolution.  A third UI
in the mix would sorely fragment things, I believe.  Rev seems to be coming
together well, and it may well satisfy peoples' request for a slicker, more
HIG-compliant UI.  But until the word spreads about Revolution, there will
continue to be feedback on the UI of the sort I was replying to.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web
 _
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com
 Tel: 323-225-3717   ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716



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Re: Reading raw data

[Richard Gaskin]

andu wrote:

> How about an iMac Flower Power running Windows, with a 4 years AOL deal
> for the internet and financing?

Funny you should mention AOL:  I was using AOL the other day, and it occured
to me that just about any of us could build the AOL client from scratch in
MetaCard for Mac, Win, and UNIX in a fraction of the time it takes AOL to
engineer a mere upgrade for a single platform.   ;)

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web
 _
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com
 Tel: 323-225-3717   ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716



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Re: Reading raw data

[andu]

Richard Gaskin wrote:
> 
> JB wrote:
> 
> > At the risk of being considered as rude & abrasive, I'd like to
> > report a small anecdote :
> >
> > The main reason is that the whole environment (and especially
> > the demo) really s*ck !!! (again I apologize for the comments,
> > but they weren't mine).
> 
> I believe that a modest $10k interface overhaul would likely bring in at
> least another hundred sales each year.  At $995 a pop, this would have a
> substantial beneficial impact on Scott Raney's lifestyle in his retirement
> years, and very likely make retirement an option far sooner.  If he's not
> into investing, it could deliver for him a stellar vacation at his choice of
> luxury hotels anywhere in the world, and over time could pay for a second
> home in Hawaii.
> 
> Based on such feedback I've heard directly, I believe that loosing a hundred
> sales a year from a the appearance of the development environment is a
> conservative estimate.
> 
> The biggest factor in this is not just "pretty pictures":  When folks see
> that the vendor's own UI looks so foreign to both Mac and Windows, they get
> the mistaken impression that their apps can look no better.  I've worked
> with it enough to know that's not a fair assessment, but that's the
> difference between an engineer and a marketer:  A good engineer looks at the
> _facts_, while a good marketer focuses on the _perception_ of those facts.
> 
> Scott is one of the finest engineers and technical managers I've ever
> witnessed, with solid business savvy as well.  If coupled with a person
> equally strong in marketing, and a willingness to allow his engineering to
> be at least partially driven by relevant marketing considerations, I believe
> his personal income would grow substantially, at least several times over
> the cost of such an investment.
> 
> While no one can predict such things, I'll wager that if MetaCard's UI were
> as strong as its engine, RealBASIC never would have been able to get enough
> funding to even consider a Windows port, so strong a competitor MC would
> make.
> 
> MC is arguably the most powerful virtual machine on the planet, potentially
> able to save the world's programmers several million person-hours every
> year.  At the moment, the world suffers a global productivity hit from MC
> allowing itself to be underestimated.

This eternal desire for perfection... specially at someone else's.
In a society whose life line is marketing and not the object of it,
focusing on the object can indeed appear as a defect or handicap,
something to be fixed.

How about an iMac Flower Power running Windows, with a 4 years AOL deal
for the internet and financing?

> 
> --
>  Richard Gaskin

Andu

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Re: Reading raw data

[Michael Kann]

Richard, if your business analysis is correct why
don't you license the engine from Scott as the
Revolutionaries are doing, toss in your $10k for the
improved GUI, then sell at least a hundred copies of
GaskinCard. You could buy that second house instead of
Scott.

--- Richard's well thought out statements ---

I believe that a modest $10k interface overhaul would
likely bring in at least another hundred sales each
year.  At $995 a pop, this would have a substantial
beneficial impact on Scott Raney's lifestyle in his
retirement years, and very likely make retirement an
option far sooner.  If he's not into investing, it
could deliver for him a stellar vacation at his choice
of luxury hotels anywhere in the world, and over time
could pay for a second home in Hawaii.
Based on such feedback I've heard directly, I believe
that loosing a hundred sales a year from a the
appearance of the development environment is a
conservative estimate.

The biggest factor in this is not just "pretty
pictures":  When folks see that the vendor's own UI
looks so foreign to both Mac and Windows, they get the
mistaken impression that their apps can look no
better.  I've worked with it enough to know that's not
a fair assessment, but that's the difference between
an engineer and a marketer:  A good engineer looks at
the _facts_, while a good marketer focuses on the
_perception_ of those facts.

Scott is one of the finest engineers and technical
managers I've ever witnessed, with solid business
savvy as well.  If coupled with a person equally
strong in marketing, and a willingness to allow his
engineering to be at least partially driven by
relevant marketing considerations, I believe his
personal income would grow substantially, at least
several times over the cost of such an investment.
While no one can predict such things, I'll wager that
if MetaCard's UI were as strong as its engine,
RealBASIC never would have been able to get enough
funding to even consider a Windows port, so strong a
competitor MC would make.

MC is arguably the most powerful virtual machine on
the planet, potentially able to save the world's
programmers several million person-hours every year. 
At the moment, the world suffers a global productivity
hit from MC allowing itself to be underestimated.


__
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http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Re: Reading raw data

[Richard Gaskin]

JB wrote:

> At the risk of being considered as rude & abrasive, I'd like to
> report a small anecdote :
>
> The main reason is that the whole environment (and especially
> the demo) really s*ck !!! (again I apologize for the comments,
> but they weren't mine).

I believe that a modest $10k interface overhaul would likely bring in at
least another hundred sales each year.  At $995 a pop, this would have a
substantial beneficial impact on Scott Raney's lifestyle in his retirement
years, and very likely make retirement an option far sooner.  If he's not
into investing, it could deliver for him a stellar vacation at his choice of
luxury hotels anywhere in the world, and over time could pay for a second
home in Hawaii.

Based on such feedback I've heard directly, I believe that loosing a hundred
sales a year from a the appearance of the development environment is a
conservative estimate.

The biggest factor in this is not just "pretty pictures":  When folks see
that the vendor's own UI looks so foreign to both Mac and Windows, they get
the mistaken impression that their apps can look no better.  I've worked
with it enough to know that's not a fair assessment, but that's the
difference between an engineer and a marketer:  A good engineer looks at the
_facts_, while a good marketer focuses on the _perception_ of those facts.

Scott is one of the finest engineers and technical managers I've ever
witnessed, with solid business savvy as well.  If coupled with a person
equally strong in marketing, and a willingness to allow his engineering to
be at least partially driven by relevant marketing considerations, I believe
his personal income would grow substantially, at least several times over
the cost of such an investment.

While no one can predict such things, I'll wager that if MetaCard's UI were
as strong as its engine, RealBASIC never would have been able to get enough
funding to even consider a Windows port, so strong a competitor MC would
make.

MC is arguably the most powerful virtual machine on the planet, potentially
able to save the world's programmers several million person-hours every
year.  At the moment, the world suffers a global productivity hit from MC
allowing itself to be underestimated.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web
 _
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com
 Tel: 323-225-3717   ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716



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re: reading raw data

[diskot123]

>Feel sorry for you to have to spend time with young morons. Chalenge
>them to write a functional application with GUI and all that in
>C,C++,PHP and whatever they heard of,  and time them. Then write the
>same thing in MC and compare.
Then challenge them to make this app work on mac, and windows. Hell just
have them write an application which displays a JPEG image which in
itself requires that you download and learn a few libaries.

Tuviah

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Re: Reading raw data

[andu]

jbv wrote:
> 
> Sjoerd Op 't Land a écrit:
> 
> > jbv wrote/ schreef:
> >
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > > Has anyone already tried to read raw data
> > > on the Mac modem / printer port ?
> > >
> > > Does the following script work :
> > >
> > > open modem:
> > > read from modem:
> > > close modem:
> > Guess it should be "file modem:" instead of "modem:", but then, it should
> > work.
> >
> 
> Thanks for the tip, but I already found the info in the Revolution
> help...
> 
> Actually, since I downloaded the Revolution beta a week ago,
> I'm always using the Rev help when I script with MC...
> I must confess that the Revolution environnement and help are
> much much better done & attractive (with more details and more
> examples) than the MC ones...
> 
> At the risk of being considered as rude & abrasive, I'd like to
> report a small anecdote : we have a few students / trainees at the
> office right now and these youngsters are very deep into Linux,
> C, C++, PHP etc. I spent the last few days trying to introduce
> them to MC but was unable to keep them more than 30 secs on
> the MC website (and I won't mention that after downloading MC,
> running the demo and opening a couple of scripts they threw the
> whole package to the trashcan). They just considered that "it's just
> another scripting language"...

Feel sorry for you to have to spend time with young morons. Chalenge
them to write a functional application with GUI and all that in
C,C++,PHP and whatever they heard of,  and time them. Then write the
same thing in MC and compare.

> The main reason is that the whole environment (and especially
> the demo) really s*ck !!! (again I apologize for the comments,
> but they weren't mine).
> Revolution looks slicker & more attractive, and I was able to
> have those students spend more time on it.
> 
> I'm not sure I fully understand the connection between MC and
> Revolution... Is it an attempt to re-furbish the MC environment in
> order to make it more attractive for Hypercard users ?
> I must confess that I don't fully understand the reason of having
> 2 separate products with almost the same fonctionalities, the
> same licensing price, etc...

The core is the MC engine. MC development environment and Revolution are
some examples of what you can write with that engine (of course you
could just use the command line) and they reflect 2 markets: developers
who need a tool to make something with it and developers who need a tool
to look at it and wonder. The later ones as your anecdote proves, are
the more numerous; what they can show at the end of the day is a
different matter.
 That's not to say that I don't have high regards for Revolution which
is in itself probably the most complex application I've seen made with
MC. I doubt though that it will stimulate the genius in the user more
then vanilla MC.

> 
> Just a couple of naive questions from a dumb end-user...
> 
> JB
> 
> Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard@lists.runrev.com/
> Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm
> Please send bug reports to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, not this list.

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Re: Reading raw data

[Geoff Canyon]

>I'm not sure I fully understand the connection between MC and
>Revolution... Is it an attempt to re-furbish the MC environment in
>order to make it more attractive for Hypercard users ?
>I must confess that I don't fully understand the reason of having
>2 separate products with almost the same fonctionalities, the
>same licensing price, etc...

Everyone feel free to pile on if I get it wrong, but:

MetaCard has been around for almost ten years now. It was inspired 
(as were many other things) by HyperCard. It started on Unix, then 
spread to Windows and finally to the Mac. The people behind it, being 
standard Unix types, seem more concerned with power and stability 
than with style and appearance.

Enter the Revolution crew. They cut their teeth as SuperCard 
developers, then moved to MetaCard. They decided MetaCard needed a 
better development environment. The MetaCard people will tell anyone 
who asks about this that we're all free to make whatever improvements 
we like for our own use. This is possible because the entire MetaCard 
environment is built in MetaCard itself. The Revolutionaries 
suggested that they might want to take it further than that, building 
a whole new development environment.

Conversations were had, meetings were held, agreements were signed, 
and the rest is history. This leaves us with two choices. Both are 
based on the same foundation. Neither has any advantage in access to 
the internals of the engine. MetaCard is responsible for development 
of the engine, and any enhancements they might make to their 
development environment. Revolution is responsible for their 
development environment.

regards,

geoff


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Re: Reading raw data

[jbv]

Sjoerd Op 't Land a écrit:

> jbv wrote/ schreef:
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Has anyone already tried to read raw data
> > on the Mac modem / printer port ?
> >
> > Does the following script work :
> >
> > open modem:
> > read from modem:
> > close modem:
> Guess it should be "file modem:" instead of "modem:", but then, it should
> work.
>

Thanks for the tip, but I already found the info in the Revolution
help...

Actually, since I downloaded the Revolution beta a week ago,
I'm always using the Rev help when I script with MC...
I must confess that the Revolution environnement and help are
much much better done & attractive (with more details and more
examples) than the MC ones...

At the risk of being considered as rude & abrasive, I'd like to
report a small anecdote : we have a few students / trainees at the
office right now and these youngsters are very deep into Linux,
C, C++, PHP etc. I spent the last few days trying to introduce
them to MC but was unable to keep them more than 30 secs on
the MC website (and I won't mention that after downloading MC,
running the demo and opening a couple of scripts they threw the
whole package to the trashcan). They just considered that "it's just
another scripting language"...
The main reason is that the whole environment (and especially
the demo) really s*ck !!! (again I apologize for the comments,
but they weren't mine).
Revolution looks slicker & more attractive, and I was able to
have those students spend more time on it.

I'm not sure I fully understand the connection between MC and
Revolution... Is it an attempt to re-furbish the MC environment in
order to make it more attractive for Hypercard users ?
I must confess that I don't fully understand the reason of having
2 separate products with almost the same fonctionalities, the
same licensing price, etc...

Just a couple of naive questions from a dumb end-user...

JB





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Re: Reading raw data

[Sjoerd Op 't Land]

jbv wrote/ schreef:

> Hi folks,
> 
> Has anyone already tried to read raw data
> on the Mac modem / printer port ?
> 
> Does the following script work :
> 
> open modem:
> read from modem:
> close modem:
Guess it should be "file modem:" instead of "modem:", but then, it should
work.

> Thanks.
> 
> JB

Hope this helps,
Sjoerd


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Reading raw data

[jbv]

Hi folks,

Has anyone already tried to read raw data
on the Mac modem / printer port ?

Does the following script work :

  open modem:
  read from modem:
  close modem:

Thanks.

JB





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