[meteorite-list] Canadian Meteorite statistics
Top 10 "largest" meteorites found in Canada based on the weights of single recovered masses: 1. Madoc, Ontario, 1864 167.5 kgIron Find 2. Iron Creek, Alberta, 1869 146.0 Iron Find 3. Abee, Alberta, 1952 107.0 Stony Fall + 4. Osseo, Ontario, 1931 46.3 Iron Find 5. Dresden (Ontario), Ontario, 1939 39.9* Stony Fall 6. Manitouwabing, Ontario, 1962 39.0 Iron Find 7. Springwater, Sask., 1931 38.6* Stony-iron Find 8. Bruderheim, Alberta, 1930 31.2* Stony Fall ! 9. Hagersville, Ontario, 1999 30.0 Iron Find # 10. Vulcan, Alberta, 1962 19.0 Stony Find ~ + Abee fell in 1952. The Catalogue of Meteorites 2000, Fifth Edition, The Natural History Museum, erroneously says 1953 * largest/heaviest mass of more than one; the main mass recovered, and therefore probably still the main mass ! largest meteorite fall in Canada, a meteorite shower of >303 kg recovered # an iron meteorite, single mass, soon to be officially accepted and named, discovered in April 1999 ~ largest stony meteorite find in Canada Please send corrections or discussion to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> RKH _ Dr. Richard K. Herd, Curator / Conservateur, National Collections / Collections nationales, Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada, Natural Resources Canada/Ressources naturelles Canada, 601 Booth Street / 601, rue Booth, Ottawa K1A 0E8 Tel / Tél: (613) 992-4042; 998-0381 Res / Rés: (613) 526-5050 Fax: (613) 954-0481; 943-1286; 954-0482 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] C-éléc:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Percival Lowell Strange Martian Surface Feature
Hello List With all this talk about Intelligent Life on Mars and is Mr. Hoagland a Nutcase, Doe's anyone remember Percival Lowell? A graduated from Harvard in 1876, Lowell spent 15 years intensively studying Mars. By viewing the surface of Mars through the 24-inch Clark Telescope, located on Mars hills 7260' above sea level in Flagstaff Arizona, Lowell produced intricate drawings of the Red Planet, delineating hundreds of straight lines and their intersections (which Lowell called "oases"). Lowell concluded that the bright areas were deserts and the dark were patches of vegetation. He further believed that water from the melting polar cap flowed down the canals toward the equatorial region to revive the vegetation. Lowell believed the canals were constructed by intelligent beings who once flourished on Mars. He published his views in three books: Mars(1895), Mars and Its Canals(1906), and Mars As the Abode of Life(1908). And started the popular Martian mind set, that we are not alone and there proof of intelligent life on Mars. Lowell spent his last years looking for Planet "X", He died in 1916 never finding it. But the search continued after his death at Mars Hill by Clyde Tombaugh who in 1930 discovered planet "X" or the ninth planet", later he named it Pluto. Pluto astronomical symbol became PL are also Percival Lowell's initials. I think we all agree that Percival Lowell didn't get it at all right, and his imagination got the best of him, but Lowell's Research at the observatory led to discovery of the planet Pluto and the first evidence of the expanding universe was also discovered at Mars Hill. Some people think that Percival Lowell was also Nutcase and others a Great Astronomer. Lowell observatory is still open today and provides extensive education and outreach activities to educate visitors and school children about the exciting world of astronomy. And is worth the visit if your ever in Flagstaff area. Given a little time, we will all find out the facts and the truth about Mars and what was just imagination gone wild once again. But if Lowell was Nutcase I don't think history will ever settled this one. What doe's the list think Thanks for your time. Keith Chandler AZ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] re Hoagland etc
Hi all,
Speaking personally, as a science Outreach educator who works in schools, the famous Hoagland-fave "Face on Mars" has been an absolute *godsend*! :-) Showing a slide of it to a class never fails to generate a mass exclamation of "wow!"s or "cool!"s... which lets me tell the kids that yes, it *looks* like a face true enough, but it's not **really** a face, just a mesa under unusual lighting conditions... cue mass exclamations of "ow!"... then I can continue: but actually kids, there *is* a face on Mars, a natural one, and show them a slide of the crater Galle on the edge of the Argyre basin, down in the southern hemisphere, and you'll see it has two central peaks above a curved mountain range which, together, really do make it look like a cosmic-scale "smiley face". My young audiences get a *huge* kick out of that, actually a bigger kick than the thought that there's a face on Mars carved by either ancient martians or, theory #2, space-travelling Egyptians who decided to replicate the Sphinx on Cydonia... ;-)
I know Mr Hoagland has gone way beyond sensible speculation in this, and that makes me sad, because I can't help thinking that if he turned his considerable intellect towards practical Martian exploration he'd be a real asset to the program. But he's chosen his path, so so be it. And yes, there's now a whole "Mars Conspiracy" clique out there, who won't be told otherwise, but that's okay, you know? In my day to day life, at work and after (sometimes during!) the talks I give I still come up against people who believe and insist that the Apollo landings were faked (CAPRICORN 1 has a *lot* to answer for! ;-) ) and that we've never been further than low Earth orbit... it's fun to argue the facts with them, I don't get worked-up about it anymore. I look up at the Moon and *know* that people have been there, and have looked back at Earth too, just as I know that one day we'll go to Mars and the men and women of the first expedition will gaze up into a dust-stained dusk sky and see Earth twinkling above the slopes of Olympus Mons like a sapphire... and will instinctively reach for each others' hands as they watch Earth *set*, and realise for the first time that they really are a long, *long* way from home. It's a faith thing.
And in 100 years time, you just know that there'll be a museum and visitor centre out there on the Cydonia plain, close to where the "Face" is, and settlers will be able to show their native-born kids displays and models of the so-called "Monuments of Mars", and they'll all laugh and wonder how anyone could have imagined such a thing... while secretly wishing it had been true.
As for what the public "want", I know what they want - they want "space" to be exciting and interesting, they want some mysteries and puzzles. That's why they so love seeing and holding the meteorites all of us collect. ("Real rocks from space? wow! But how do we know huh?") I'm a science-type, most of us on this List are, but I still wouldn't want to live in a world without blurred pictures of "Bigfoot" or "Nessie", or faked photos of Roswell aliens, or huge sculpted faces on Mars. To me they just make the "real stuff" even more exciting and awesome... and there are many, many people out there who have been drawn into "real science" after having their imagination fired initially by fake stories and mistakes. A good number of the people who build or even *fly* the shuttle were inspired by STAR TREK in their youth, and no-one can claim that its green-skinned women or furry tribbles were good science. :-)
To answer some recent points tho...
>>Having said that, as I understand it Mr Hoagland was one of the first people
>>to openly suggest that there may be primitive lifeforms beneath the ice on
>>Europa,
>As I understand it, there is no evidence that this statement is true.
Okay, this ***suggestion*** of mine has been countered by people much more knowledgeable than myself. I just remembered reading it somewhere. Grovelling apologies. ;-)
>>an idea which is almost universally accepted by exo-biologists now,
>An idea "universally accepted" by a group of scientists when there isn't a
shred of evidence to support it? Unlikely.
Please see the word *almost* in my statement - and okay, maybe being a little optimistic, but it *is* a very popular and widely-supported theory now.
>>It's all good for debate and
>>increasing public interest in Mars, which is what we really need if we've to
>>have any hope of staging a manned mission anytime soon.
>It's all good for perpetuating long-standing conspiracy theories, outright
>lies, superstitions, and crank publications at the expense of real science
>content which is what the public _really_ wants but too often cannot get
>thanks to the nutcases setting the public agenda.
Well, people will believe what they want to believe, and we have to be honest, there's a market for good science *and* a market for crud - as many people went to see the appalling MISSI
[meteorite-list] test test, TEST
I think that it is more than AOL that is goofy! Dave F. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re: Hoagland
The November/December issue of Skeptical Inquirer has a long article about Mr. Nutcase Hoagland. Very enlightening. >Having said that, as I understand it Mr Hoagland was one of the first people >to openly suggest that there may be primitive lifeforms beneath the ice on >Europa, As I understand it, there is no evidence that this statement is true. >an idea which is almost universally accepted by exo-biologists now, An idea "universally accepted" by a group of scientists when there isn't a shred of evidence to support it? Unlikely. >so let's not condemn the guy *totally*. Sure. He produces valuable carbon dioxide and fertilizers for the plant life on Earth. >It's all good for debate and >increasing public interest in Mars, which is what we really need if we've to >have any hope of staging a manned mission anytime soon. It's all good for perpetuating long-standing conspiracy theories, outright lies, superstitions, and crank publications at the expense of real science content which is what the public _really_ wants but too often cannot get thanks to the nutcases setting the public agenda. Bob MartinoCan you really name a star? http://home.columbus.rr.com/starfaq/ "I look up to the heavens but night has clouded over no spark of constellation no Vela no Orion." -Enya __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re: Strange Martian Surface Feature
My apologies Galileo was not a "nutcase" in those days people who questioned the "natural order" were considered "Heretics" I wonder what they will label them in the future. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Help with Gold Basin locations
Allen Emer wrote: > My thirteen yr old son and I have just recently > started studying and collecting meteorites. Hi Al and Sean, Welcome to the fascinating world of meteorites, welcome to "our" List. With regard to Gold Basin, Ingrid (Twink) Monrad and Jim Kriegh (both Tucson residents), John Blennert and some others, are the most knowledgeable people - Gold Basin has become a second home to them and their advice and their assistance will surely help you get started there without running into avoidable problems as some of the area is also in private hands. As for scientific information, there is Dr. David Kring (UoA) who has published several competent papers and scientific articles about the GB meteorites. One of these articles that will be very helpful for your plans is: KRING D.A. et al. (2001) Gold Basin Meteorite Strewn Field, Mojave Desert, Northwestern Arizona: Relict of a Small Late Pleistocene Impact Event (MAPS 36-8, 2001, pp. 1057-1066). I can't attach it to this email because it would "waste too much bandwidth" (which is forbidden) as it comprises almost 1MB. Best wishes, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Can Someone Explain the Mars Tubes?
Perhaps a more appropriate threshold question is: Are they tubes, or something else (less remarkable) that just resembles tubes in this view? Mark > the original question still remains. > > What the heck are those tubes on Mars? I don't care who pointed them out > first. > > Kevin Kichinka > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Can Someone Explain the Mars Tubes?
Kevin, All: The Hydrologic cycle of Mars is not well-understood - that's a major focus of continuing research. To venture a guess, I'd say that the "tube" formation has something to do with frost and some poorly understood sublimation process. I know that's like blaming everything we don't understand in meteorites on "shock" but it's all that I can think of for now and look forward to the contributions of others. Russ K. At 04:08 PM 03/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I'm not a "Believer" per the definition I note here on the list, but I am a >"seeker." I'm seeking an answer. What are the tubes? I note that my most >honored colleagues and people in the position to know, Ron B and Allan T, >didn't address this in their messages. > >So though we've now somewhat vilified and thoroughly psychoanalyzed Mr. >Hoagland, the original question still remains. > >What the heck are those tubes on Mars? I don't care who pointed them out >first. > >Kevin Kichinka > >__ >Meteorite-list mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Shows
Now that Tucson 2002 is history, what other shows during the year are worthwhile with respect to dealer/collector presence? Thanks, Mark __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Can Someone Explain the Mars Tubes?
I'm not a "Believer" per the definition I note here on the list, but I am a "seeker." I'm seeking an answer. What are the tubes? I note that my most honored colleagues and people in the position to know, Ron B and Allan T, didn't address this in their messages. So though we've now somewhat vilified and thoroughly psychoanalyzed Mr. Hoagland, the original question still remains. What the heck are those tubes on Mars? I don't care who pointed them out first. Kevin Kichinka __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Help with Gold Basin locations
My thirteen yr old son and I have just recently started studying and collecting meteorites. A client has booked me to shoot a video in Las Vegas the week after my son's spring break from school and we are looking forward to taking the opportunity to fly out early for a week to visit meteor crater and do some meteorite hunting in Gold Basin and also on a dry lake bed. My twin brother lives in Vegas and is a geophysicist so we have access to 4 wheel drive transport as well as metal detectors and even a proton procession magnometer if needed. My question to the list is if some one can help us with some GPS lat/longs to find an appropriate place to start our search for both Gold Basin and any dry lake bed in the Nev / Arizona area. We will work our way down to Tucson by the end of the first week in April Any help with directions and location of strewn fields would be greatly appreciated.. Thanks Al & Sean Emer __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Student Navigators Drive Mars Rover Testbed
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/studentnav01.html Student Navigators Drive Mars Rover Testbed Jet Propulsion Laboratory March 7, 2002 Intense discussion, various viewpoints, chairs being scooted around, slightly raised voices, and eventual consensus: just a typical meeting of scientists in the lab; in this case a rover lab at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. The difference, though, was that this group was composed of students from four countries around the world who were planning simulated scientific tasks for exploring the surface of Mars. One of the targets they chose for analysis was a rock that they nicknamed "Pebbles." Only this rock isn't on the red planet; it is located in the JPL Mars Yard, an outdoor test facility that approximates Mars terrain located away from the rover lab. And after the mission, the students were able to visit "Mars" and actually see the rover used to conduct the exercise and "Mars rocks". Student navigators selected by The Planetary Society as part of their Red Rover Goes to Mars program recently visited JPL to participate in a simulated mission operations exercise. They were able to experience the drama and excitement of a mission to Mars "up close and personal," as do scientists and other mission team members currently preparing for the 2003 Mars Exploration Rovers mission. >From a simulated mission control room, the students put the Field Integrated Design and Operations (FIDO) robotic rover through its paces in the JPL Mars Yard. Operations focused on short distance driving, trenching into soil using a FIDO wheel and taking images using a camera on the FIDO robotic arm. Students were able to participate in the process of characterizing exposed sediments using imaging and spectroscopy. Using training prepared by The Planetary Society, students had previously studied physics and geology and participated in on-line exercises to prepare them to interpret what they would see through the rover's sensors. "It was interesting," said Dr. Eddie Tunstel, FIDO lead engineer and JPL point-of-contact for the visit. "The discussions were conducted just as rover mission scientists do here when planning tasks. Their enthusiasm is great - I noticed many members of the FIDO team dropping by just to observe the exercise." On the first day of their three-day visit, students and their parents toured JPL. The second day was taken up with an intensive short course on using JPL's software used for remotely commanding FIDO. The third day was devoted to the simulated mission. Science planning and execution was led by Dr. Bob Anderson, scientist for the rock abrasion tool on an upcoming rover mission, acting as flight manager, and Dr. Ashitey Trebi-Ollennu, mission planner and FIDO control systems engineer. Rover operations engineer Dr. Mark Powell, mission uplink/downlink lead, kept very busy building command sequences for the rover in response to students' decisions about what they wanted to study and noted that they were easy to train in using the software. The JPL team kept the mission planning discussion on course, reminding the student navigators of time and software/hardware constraints. They provided guidance for potential science targets, but let the students make the decisions on the scientific focus. Trebi-Ollennu said, "We've had a fantastic three days with the kids. These tests provided an exciting venue for the kids to apply verbal, written, mathematical and computer skills to solve real-world problems. This international experience also gives the kids a unique insight and perspective as to how to work in a collaborative team of experts from diverse disciplines and cultures, an invaluable asset as aspiring space explorers." While the student navigators were all scientific seriousness in the mission room, excitement and high spirits prevailed on their visit to the Mars Yard. They took pictures and got as close as possible to the rover, asking questions and chattering about their experience. Too soon, it was time to say goodbye to the rover and go back to the lab to conclude the mission. Anderson led the group in a discussion of what they had done and what they had learned during the three days. The students agreed that they had learned to work as a team, to collaborate, to support consensus and they learned scientific procedures. Students also commented that they had learned how helpless they could feel when they couldn't get an image they wanted and couldn't do anything about it, and when the answer they got was not what they thought it would be. "Sometimes a negative answer is the answer," Anderson told them. "Part of learning is that technology doesn't always work." Shaleen Harlalka, an Indian student, said "We're really lucky for this entire experience." The students and their countries are: Paul Nicholas Bonato, 17, Australia; Avinash Chandrashekar, 12, India; Kimberly DeRose, 15, United States; Shaleen Harlalka, 17, India; Jacqueline Cherie Hayes, 17, Austral
[meteorite-list] Re: Strange Martian Surface Feature
>Was Galileo a "nutcase"? No. I've never seen any references where Galileo was referred to as a nutcase. He was persecuted by the Church because he had different views from the Church, but it was not because he was a nutcase. Incidently, unlike Hoagland, Galileo has always been supported by the scientific community. >It is true that Hoagland was the first to suggest that >sub-surface European oceans are a possible home of life. It turns out that is not the case. Hoagland was not the first to suggest that life may exist on Europa. Hoagland wrote an article about that in 1980, but it was suggested by others well before that. See here for more details: http://www.math.washington.edu/~greenber/EuropaFax.html >Arthur C. Clarke verified that Hoagland suggested it to him. It is true Clarke first heard about the possible Europa life from Hoagland, but Arthur C. Clarke later said: "I am also grateful to him [Richard Hoagland] for the excellent 1980 article he wrote--my first introduction to the idea. Since then I have become aware of the fact that many others had thought of it first, as you point out." Ron Baalke __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature
Hi Allan, > Well, IMHO, Hoagland is not a nut case. He is a clever > cynical expert in public relations, who has made a nice > living on the credibility of others. You bring up a good point. It all depends on what Hoagland *personally* believes. If he's just in it for the money and publicity, then that's another thing all together. Like you said, not exactly the sort of living I'd want -- profiting from the ignorance/paranoia of others... --Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] By golly, just the best dream.
almitt jested: > Hi Robert and all, Have you been eating any of your meteorites?? :-) ... because if you haven't but still enjoy a child's dream, it's about time you read STU's (Stuart Atkinson's) story: "LETTERS FROM MARS" Hello STU, are you there :-) Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Massive Star Pair Raises Dust While Doing the Tango
http://www.gemini.edu/project/announcements/press/2002-4.html GEMINI OBSERVATORY Public Information and Outreach Office Science Contacts: Dr. Sergey V. Marchenko Department of Physics and Astronomy Western Kentucky University Bowling Green, Kentucky (270)-745-6201 (Office) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dr. Anthony F.J. Moffat Département de physique Université de Montréal (514) 343-6682 (Office) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Media Contacts: Peter Michaud Gemini Observatory, Hilo HI (808) 974-2510 (Desk), (808) 987-5876 (Cell) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dr. Dennis Crabtree National Research Council (250) 363-0024 (Office) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PRESS RELEASE EMBARGOED FOR RELEASE: 12:30 p.m. EST, Monday, February 25, 2002 ### Massive Star Pair Raises Dust While Doing the Tango A Canadian-led research team using the Gemini Observatory has released tantalizing evidence that tiny dust particles ejected by hot, massive stars, may survive long enough to reach the interstellar medium. This kind of process might have provided some of the materials necessary for the early formation of planetary systems in the young Universe. The research team used the advanced mid-infrared imaging capabilities of the Gemini North Telescope, on Mauna Kea in Hawaii, to study the dynamic interaction between a massive binary star pair engaged in a dusty orbital tango. The star system, named "WR 112", pits stellar winds from one star against the other to produce a bow shock where the stronger wind pushes back the weaker. The extreme compression at the bow shock forms dust that subsequently flows out from the system, tracing a giant spiral that hints at the star pair's ongoing orbital dance. "These massive, most unsuspecting dust-producing Wolf-Rayet stars have been observed as they orbit in binary pairs before, but this is the first time that we have imaged one at multiple, mid-infrared wavelengths at this resolution," says Dr. Sergey Marchenko, formerly of the Université de Montréal (now at the Western Kentucky University) and lead-author of the paper published in the January 20, 2002 Astrophysical Journal Letters. "Looking at this system with Gemini we have revealed that the carbon dust particles, while tiny, are about 100 times larger than state-of-the-art theory predicts. In addition, a significant portion of the dust appears to be escaping into interstellar space before it can be destroyed by the lethal radiation field emanating from the hot, massive stars of the binary system." Theory predicts that very early in the history of the Universe, the majority of stars may have been very massive, like those that become Wolf-Rayet (WR) stars. Because of their high mass, these stars burn rapidly and intensely, living lives about 1000 times shorter than stars like our Sun. It is therefore likely that this process could have injected a large amount of heavy-element (mainly carbon from the nuclear fusion of helium) dust into the interstellar medium while the Universe was still relatively young. "As a result, we might need to consider a relatively early epoch in the history of the Universe when the necessary ingredients first became available in the interstellar medium to seed and form planetary systems," said Marchenko. The images produced by Gemini of this system clearly show the spiraling dust cloud formed by the dance of these two giant stars. Anthony Moffat also of the Université de Montréal, and co-PI with Marchenko, describes the result of this interaction in more earthly terms, "If you look downstream, beyond the central region where the winds from the two stars collide, we see a trail of dust that spirals out due to the combined orbital motions of the two stars. This outflowing is much like the path that water takes as a playful gardener swings around a high pressure garden hose!" One mystery that remains is how the amorphous carbon dust particles form and survive in the harsh environment surrounding these stars. It is also unknown what processes lead to the formation of dust grains that are almost two orders of magnitude larger than theory predicts. Even at this size, each dust particle is still only about the size of cigarette smoke particles, or about 1 micron across. What is understood is that the stellar wind from the carbon-rich Wolf-Rayet star in the WR112 pair is much stronger than that of the companion. As the wind from the Wolf-Rayet star encounters the weaker wind from its companion, a "shock-zone" is formed that bends back around the companion. The increased pressure in the shock-zone is believed to spark the formation of these larger grains of amorphous carbon dust. The dust then is obliged by the stronger WR stellar wind to flow away from and out of the system in the distinctive spiral pattern that was revealed by the Gemini mid-infrared images. See http://www.gemini.edu/media/MSImages.html for illustrations and data showing this process. WR1
Re: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature
Dear Mr. X,
The Meteorite List did not denominate Mr. Hoagland as a "nutcase." I, the
original poster of the inquiry was the one that did that. Although, in fairness,
it seems to have offended no one but a "true believer." As to why, I think the
List has given good reasons.
It is true that Hoagland was the first to suggest that sub-surface Europan
oceans are a possible home of life. Arthur C. Clarke verified that Hoagland
suggested it to him. No one doubts that Hoagland was once bright, intelligent,
constructive, and sane.
I think that Hoagland is a nutcase because if you read Mr. Hoagland's works
over time, you observe a an intelligent and reasoned inquiry (in the 1970's) that
deteriorates progressively in the manner of a classic paranoid delusion. The
scheme of things becomes more grandiose and the claims more outrageous
(miles-high glass buildings on the Moon, aethyric new-age flapdoddle about
"mysterious forces"). A failed Martian mission becomes a "cover-up" devised to
prevent the world from learning his (Hoagland's) truth. And so on.
Curiously, by publishing successive editions of the Monuments of Mars by
appending new revelations to the original text over and over again, Hoagland
himself is the best documentarian of this progression. (I read the Fifth edition;
there may be more.)
You seem to assume that I have not read Hoagland ("perhaps we should look
more closely at that persons research"). Wrong. I've spent (wasted) considerable
time reading the hundreds of pages of Hoagland's magnum opus for just that
reason; true believers always claim (Hoagland does) that they never get a fair
hearing. I gave him one. Which gives me the right to a judgement. There's nothing
to his case.
As a naive nerd at heart, it never occurred to me that Hoagland might be a
con artist as Allan Treimain suggested. Seems a hard way to make a living, but
who knows? He does seem to have a minor industry going, selling to the faithful.
You suggest he's motivated by the pursuit of knowledge. If you're going to
pursue knowledge, like any good hunter, you have to follow its trail, not just
throw yourself into an abyss of silliness.
Sterling K. Webb
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In regard to the comment about Hoagland being an alleged "nutcase" I have to
> ask why? Why is it that someone is a nutcase when he or she looks to the
> extraordinary in hopes of expanding human knowledge? Was Gallileo a
> "nutcase"? Yes, he was in his day a nut case, a heretic and in his own time
> an outcast because he chose "unpopular" realms of knowledge to delve into.
> Realms of knowledge that we today know of as science. Why risk being an
> outcast? The pursuit of knowledge. If we rest on what we have learned and
> think we are experts, if we sit by and point fingers at everyone who does not
> hold the same view of the world or universe the same as we do then we are
> confined to an infinite loop of blindness. Before we point fingers and laugh
> or make fun of someone simply because someone else tells us he or she is a
> nutcase perhaps we should look more closely at that persons research. In
> time we may find that our place in our perceived universe may not be as
> special as we might like it to be.
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] By golly, just the best dream.
Hi Robert and all, Have you been eating any of your meteorites?? :-) --AL Robert & Wendi Beauford wrote: > Woke up from a dream where I was selected to be on a research team to spend > several days in a habitat on the surface of mars. Saw the most outrageous > impact craters, found sedimentary rocks, learned that the face really was > made by sentient hands, and got to bring back a beautiful green and red > banded copper and manganese rich specimen that was sprinkled on one side > with tiny perfect cubic pyrite crystals. Was so happy in the dream that I > weapt with joy! (Wouldn't you with a martian specimen like that!) > Then woke to this fun discussion! > All the best, > Robert Beauford : ) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] By golly, just the best dream.
Woke up from a dream where I was selected to be on a research team to spend several days in a habitat on the surface of mars. Saw the most outrageous impact craters, found sedimentary rocks, learned that the face really was made by sentient hands, and got to bring back a beautiful green and red banded copper and manganese rich specimen that was sprinkled on one side with tiny perfect cubic pyrite crystals. Was so happy in the dream that I weapt with joy! (Wouldn't you with a martian specimen like that!) Then woke to this fun discussion! All the best, Robert Beauford : ) > Thanks to Sterling for his "head's up" on this outrageously "unique" feature > recently photographed on the surface of Mars. If you were in a rush and > didn't check it out, here's another > chance..http://www.enterprisemission.com/samp5.htm > > I'm wondering if Ron Baalke might be able to get some of his colleagues to > explain this phenomenon? > > In awe, > > Kevin Kichinka __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re: Road Worker Finds Canada's Second Largest Meteorite
>http://www.nationalpost.com/news/national/story.html?f=/stories/20020306/250387.html > >The Elm Creek Meteorite, found about 100 kilometres southwest of Winnipeg, >is the second largest find in Canadian history. Someone has pointed out to me that there is a slight error in the article. This meteorite is the second largest *stony* meteorite found in Canada. Ron Baalke __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature
Well, IMHO, Hoagland is not a nut case. He is a clever cynical expert in public relations, who has made a nice living on the credibility of others. He has found a constituency who wants to believe in life-on-Mars, and thinks that anyone who disagrees is part of the Vast Government Conspiracy. Its a living, but not one I'd want. Allan Allan H. Treiman Lunar and Planetary Institute 3600 Bay Area Boulevard Houston TX 77058-1113 281-486-2117 281-486-2162 FAX [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature In regard to the comment about Hoagland being an alleged "nutcase" I have to ask why? Why is it that someone is a nutcase when he or she looks to the extraordinary in hopes of expanding human knowledge? Was Gallileo a "nutcase"? Yes, he was in his day a nut case, a heretic and in his own time an outcast because he chose "unpopular" realms of knowledge to delve into. Realms of knowledge that we today know of as science. Why risk being an outcast? The pursuit of knowledge. If we rest on what we have learned and think we are experts, if we sit by and point fingers at everyone who does not hold the same view of the world or universe the same as we do then we are confined to an infinite loop of blindness. Before we point fingers and laugh or make fun of someone simply because someone else tells us he or she is a nutcase perhaps we should look more closely at that persons research. In time we may find that our place in our perceived universe may not be as special as we might like it to be. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] CLARIFICATION Re;Paleo Guy is back
Hi all; Please NOTE; The person with the ebay auction that Matteo first wrote about is GEOPALEO GUY , on ebay. NOT "PALEOGUY". Paleoguy is Dan Ryder of Texas who is a paleontologist and whom I had dinner with in Tucson. Real nice young man. Deals in Echinoids, Amber, trilobites etc... I state this clarification as some of you have used both names to indicate the same person...and they are not. Best to all; Jake __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Thursday's shameless ebay plug
Of special note on my ebay auctions ending tonight is a very nice oriented Sikhote-alin still at less than $1- per gram. There are also some real bargains on two different R-chondrites. Because I try to refrain from using the Buy-it-now option and start my auctions way below market, these two specimens are still far below recent advertised blow-out prices. I believe that ebay is meant to be a fun auction venue. Sometimes, my items get bid up high and sometimes they go for less than my cost. Overall I make out ok and sometimes some real bargains are grabbed up by collectors just because an auction goes un-noticed. Take a look at the following link: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/catchafallingstar.com/ Best Wishes.. Jim Strope421 Fourth StreetGlen Dale, WV 26038 Catch a Falling Star Meteoriteshttp://www.catchafallingstar.com
