Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 3133
Adam, I grow weary of your diatribes to establish yourself as the last word on any subject you choose. It's still a pretty grey area. You've made a few reasonable points but I've yet to see the true decision makers stand up and back you in a public forum. Bill -- Original message -- From: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Hi Stan, > > No less than four laboratories were involved with the classification of NWA > 3133. No laboratory has reported a pairing between NWA 1839 with a reported > TKW of 122 grams and NWA 3133 with a TKW of 2,393 grams. You said that NWA > 1839 had a TKW of over 3 kilos and was paired to NWA 011 and posted this to > the List. I would say get documentation proving these claims or submit > samples for classification. When the NomCom authorized paperwork is in > hand share it with us all. I grow weary of all these fantastic claims > without proper documentation. When proper credentials are shown I will > recognize pairings. > > All the best, > > Adam > > - Original Message - > From: "stan ." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:42 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 3133 > > > > > > > > >I think pairing conclusions are the job of scientists and the NomCom. I > > >have seen NWA 1839 being called an L7, a pairing to NWA 011 and now NWA > > >3133, all by informal sources. > > > > Adam, > > just to make sure that I'm not (and no one else is) misunderstanding what > > you may be saying here - nwa 1839 was originally classified as an L7 by > the > > same lab that classified NWA 3133. Since that time nwa 1839 has been > looked > > at again by the same lab and reclassified as a primitive achonderite - one > > that has essentially the same oxygen isotopse signiture and similar > > minerology as nwa 3133. I know people have drawn similarities between both > > stones and nwa 011, not because of a genetic relationship, but rather > > because of the fact that they both originate on previously unsampled > parent > > bodies. > > > > > > I belive David Weir published the preliminary reclassification data on the > > list not too long ago. > > > > > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] Fwd: The Next Five Big NASA Failures [Editorial]
Interesting editorial. What people often forget though is that space exploration is still primarily about military technology and politics. It's a lot easier to get funding for 'a science survey mission' than a 'new spy camera technology mission'... One wonders how the current (& slightly misguided imo) paranoia over terrorism will effect future missions? - No doubt many more "telecoms" satellites will be launched! ;) This guy wonders 'what it must be like to spend months working on a dead end project', he obviously hasn't worked as an engineer on any commercial projects! Best, Mark Ford -Original Message- From: Robert Verish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 November 2004 22:22 To: Meteorite-list Meteoritecentral Subject: [meteorite-list] Fwd: The Next Five Big NASA Failures [Editorial] For the part that is relevant to meteorites, Skip down to the 5th Failure - "Mars Sample Return": -Original Message [non-HTML format]- Subject: The Next Five Big NASA Failures (Editorial) http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-04zh.html The Next Five Big NASA Failures by Jeffrey F. Bell SpaceDaily November 15, 2004 ETC __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite?
Hello Adam and Walter, Most important meteorite: ALH 84001 or NWA 3133? I think it is difficult to say and is always biased by the personal preferences of the collector or scientist, but there is a fairly objective measure (at least for scientific importance): the number of publications on a specific meteorite. Presently, the score is as following (based on a survey of 76,000 references in MetBase from year 1492 to 2003): Allende: 2121 references Murchison: 1200 references ALH 84001: 478 references Not counted are publications in minor/local journals or newspapers. Considering that Allende and Murchison have a headstart of about 15 years, ALH 84001 will probably close the gap in the coming years. However, this is pure speculation as there are still plenty of studies on Allende and Murchison going on. Best regards, Jörn Koblitz MetBase editor > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Adam Hupe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 15. November 2004 22:51 > An: Walter Branch > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 3133 > > > Hi Walter, > > According to some scientists, Maybe so. I personally think > ALH84001 is > probably the most important meteorite ever found. I guess it > depends on how > you view importance. > > All the best, > > Adam > > - Original Message - > From: "Walter Branch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 3133 > > > > Hi Adam, > > > > >NWA 3133 may be the most important > > >meteorite to have been found in 30 years > > > > More important than ALH84001? > > > > -Walter > > > > - > > - Original Message - > > From: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:03 PM > > Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 3133 > > > > > > > Dear List, > > > > > > Several have been asking about NWA 3133. NWA 3133 is > destined to be a > > > famous set of stones exclusive to the Hupe Collection. > NWA 3133 was the > > > very first achondrite to plot on the CV mixing line using > oxygen isotope > > > testing. It has been stated that NWA 3133 may be the > most important > > > meteorite to have been found in 30 years and is destined > to become a > > classic > > > among scientists. There are several abstracts in > progress in regards to > > NWA > > > 3133 and one that is already complete. Here is a link to > the completed > > > abstract: > > > > > > http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm04/fm04-sessions/fm04_P31C.html > > > > > > I have not seen anything formal on any other meteorite > that would cause > me > > > conclude a pairing. Here is the classification submitted > to the NomCom: > > > > > > Northwest Africa 3133 > > > Morocco > > > Purchased 2004 March/August > > > Primitive achondrite (anomalous) > > > Several complete, dense, brown stones (total 2393 g) were > purchased in > > > Tagounite by a Moroccan dealer for A. and G. Hupé (Hupé) > in 2004 March > and > > > August. Classification and mineralogy (T. Bunch and J. > Wittke, NAU; A. > > > Irving and S. Kuehner, UWS): equigranular texture of subhedral to > anhedral > > > grains with ~120° triple junctions; mean grain size = > 0.28 mm. Moderate > > but > > > pervasive weathering (W2) has converted some metal and > troilite to brown > > > iron hydroxides, which also coat grain boundaries. > Mineral mode in > vol.%: > > > olivine 46, orthopyroxene 28, plagioclase 7, Cr-diopside 5, > Na-Mg-bearing > > > merrillite 4, metal (including associated hydroxides) 5, > chromite 3 and > > > troilite 2. Highly equilibrated mineral compositions: > olivine (Fa22.2 > to > > > Fa22.6, FeO/MnO = 57 - 69), orthopyroxene (Fs18.6Wo2.8 to > Fs19.2Wo2.1, > > > FeO/MnO = 38 - 49), diopside (Fs7.3Wo44.6 to Fs8.7Wo42.2, > FeO/MnO = 21 - > > 33, > > > Cr2O3 = 0.56 to 0.82 wt.%, Al2O3 =1.21 to 1.74 wt.%), plagioclase > > > (An50.1Or2.5 to An53.5Or2.3), metal (Ni = 17.4 - 20.2 > wt.%), chromite > > (TiO2 > > > = 2.61 wt.%, Cr/(Cr+Al) = 0.73), troilite (Ni = 1.2 - 5.2 > wt.%). Oxygen > > > isotopes: replicate analyses of an acid-washed whole rock > sample by > laser > > > fluorination (D. Rumble, CIW) gave respectively ?18O = > 3.06, 2.46, ?17O > > > = -1.75, -2.25, ?17O = -3.36, -3.54 per mil, and > triplicate analyses of > an > > > acid-washed olivine-rich separate by laser fluorination > (T. Larson and > F. > > > Longstaffe, UWO) gave respectively ?18O = 1.78, 0.92, 0.89, ?17O > > > = -2.91, -3.67, -3.62, ?17O = -3.84, -4.16, -4.08 per > mil. All of these > > > oxygen isotope compositions plot on the CV3 mixing line, > suggesting that > > > this achondritic meteorite has affinities with CV > chondrites (Irving et > > al., > > > 2004). Specimens: type specimens, 20.1 g, and one polished thin > section, > > > NAU; 40.3 g, and four polished thin sections, UWS
Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite?
Jörn kindly wrote: > Most important meteorite: ALH 84001 or NWA 3133? > > I think it is difficult to say and is always biased by the personal > preferences of the collector or scientist, > but there is a fairly objective measure (at least for scientific > importance): the number of publications on a specific meteorite. Hi Jörn and All, I struggled with this same question in my lastest column in Meteorite Magazine. I reviewed meteorite books counting the number of times particular meteorites were referenced in their historical or scientific context. My focus was on those meteorites that were instrumental in changing our collective understanding of meteorites. I narrowed the pool further based upon significant contributions compared to supporting contributions. Sure, the list of suspects could be longer, but I doubt it could be any shorter. As for ALH84001, I believe the most important contributions it has made are that ALH84001: 1) was the focus of a US Presidential p ress conference, 2) forced us to (yet again) adjust our collective understanding of evidence of life, and 3) definded a period of meteorite studies that involved widespread popular discussion that (my poetic license here) had not been seen since L'Aigle. I did not mention the particular specimens in the article here. Sorry about that, but that is what purchasing a subscription is all about Meteorite Magazine subscription info @: http://www.meteor.co.nz/ Cheers, Martin H __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: The Next Five Big NASA Failures [Editorial]
Bob Verish's forward does have some good critiques about NASA. One book of NASA critique is Lost in Space: The Fall of NASA and the Dream of a New Space Age by Greg Klerkx (Pantheon Press), now available for $6.95 from Edward Hamilton, bookseller, Falls Village CT 06031. (+ $3.50 S&H of course!) I saw the CRAF spectrometer exhibited at the '87 Planetary Science Conf. I wonder what happened to it. But the critiques of NASA, although some are valid, do not detract from the fact that NASA is better than no NASA or a greatly reduced NASA. It is still the big space money powerhouse. They provided funds, for example, for me to help build the Observatory here at Kent State University (with J.D. Keller, the primary team leader, and T. Koontz). It's not a big research observatory. Just a little teaching observatory, but NASA helped! Made a big difference in what we could offer students and local high school folks. Is NASA managed at optimum with respect to the goal of exploration of space and development of space technology? Probably not. Few things are managed at optimum, though. Could NASA do better? Probably. The critiques must center on a popular discussion on what can be done to improve NASA for its stated mission. But to downsize NASA any more or replace it with another agency is unthinkable, IMHO. One thing NASA might do more is reach out and interface more with other groups such as amateur astronomy groups (Astronomical League) and amateur rocket groups (Tripoli Rocketry Assn.) and even amateur collectors (IMCA)with lots of internships. Now that the internet exists, internships can be remote, and take the place of a second job, except for preset orientations and meetings at fixed dates at some location. Hm. Maybe I should write this idea up, d'ya think? Francis Graham __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Magazine comments
Hello Dr. Svend Buhl and list, I would like to challenge people on the list to a sort of contest. Lets see who can get the most Meteorite Magazine subscriptions from now until the end of the year! Winner gets a paid subscription for a full year (and yes it counts as one of my totals :-) and I'll throw in a meteorite along with that. I'll pick a nice specimen out that I have worked on. I'll annouce what it is in a few days. It is a good way to get new people interested in meteorites, expand Meteorite Magazine's subscription list and have a bit of fun while we are at it. So what do you say? Are you up to it? Let the subsciptions begin! All my best and comments welcome. --AL Mitterling "Dr. Svend Buhl" wrote: But there is also an appeal by the editor which I may forward to this list since not all of its members have the opportunity to read this unique periodical. He is asking us to support his endeavors by helping to build up the community of readers. Just be creative. Donate a subscription to your local school or planetarium or present a gift subscription to a friend or acquaintance who is interested in meteorites. Link the Meteorite Magazine homepage (http://www.meteor.co.nz/) from your site. Take a copy to meteorite fairs and exhibitions and display it on your table. Recommend it to fellow dealers and clients. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite?
Hi Martin, Yes. That is why I think ALH84001 is the most important meteorite to date. Not because of the tangibles (the jury is still out) but because of the intangibles. ALH84001 made us all (meteorite enthusiasts or not) think of the origins of life and the definition of life, focused attention on rocks from space, focused attention on the planet Mars (and the upcoming Mars pathfinder mission) and heightened awareness of things outside this planet -Walter - - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jörn Koblitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Walter Branch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:48 AM Subject: Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite? Jörn kindly wrote: > Most important meteorite: ALH 84001 or NWA 3133? > > I think it is difficult to say and is always biased by the personal > preferences of the collector or scientist, > but there is a fairly objective measure (at least for scientific > importance): the number of publications on a specific meteorite. Hi Jörn and All, I struggled with this same question in my lastest column in Meteorite Magazine. I reviewed meteorite books counting the number of times particular meteorites were referenced in their historical or scientific context. My focus was on those meteorites that were instrumental in changing our collective understanding of meteorites. I narrowed the pool further based upon significant contributions compared to supporting contributions. Sure, the list of suspects could be longer, but I doubt it could be any shorter. As for ALH84001, I believe the most important contributions it has made are that ALH84001: 1) was the focus of a US Presidential p ress conference, 2) forced us to (yet again) adjust our collective understanding of evidence of life, and 3) definded a period of meteorite studies that involved widespread popular discussion that (my poetic license here) had not been seen since L'Aigle. I did not mention the particular specimens in the article here. Sorry about that, but that is what purchasing a subscription is all about Meteorite Magazine subscription info @: http://www.meteor.co.nz/ Cheers, Martin H __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] STOLEN NWA #s
This is out of control. I got an email from a very nice guy and well known dealer today. He was selling meteorites for someone else (meaning he is not pulling the scam, but someone is), and included are two meteorites (actually 3) that are MY METEORITES. 90% of each of them are sitting here in my safe, and yet someone else seems to think that they have pairings to them. I am confused since these meteorites were mine, I bought them, I had them classified, and the NWA #s are for my pieces! These meteorites are: NWA 1906. An interesting brecciated R4 bought in 2003. A single stone weighing 560 grams. This one is very distinct from the other R chondrites. While NWA 753 is everywhere, I have never seen one like this, and the person is selling an individual, so I am confused how they come to the conclusion that it is paired with mine? Second is NWA 2085. This is the impact-melt breccia that rivals Cat Mountain! Uof A is working on a complete comparison of this with CM. This is a one of a kind meteorite, I have NEVER seen an NWA that could touch this one's rust! Again, the piece being offered is an individual, NO chance to even have a clue until it was cut! Third is NWA 1929. We have all discussed this one, and there are more like it so it is the least of my concern. Let's get something clear. I have no problem with pairing obviously paired meteorites, I think we should, but pairing things since they might "look like them" on the exterior. A paired Mars rock is less problem for me than these pairings, since a Martian is pretty hard to scam on, but a chondrite, can be lumped by lazy dealers not wanting to pay the money or spend the time doing the work. I saw this email this morning from the dealer and am now furious. NO ONE has seen an NWA impact melt breccia like NWA 2085. I would love to see another one, but have not. Now someone is trying to pawn a piece as my meteorite. I will let them make this right before I publicly reveal the dealer, they can correct this, since these are my meteorite numbers, and they belong to meteorites sitting in my safe, and anyone trying to pawn meteorites under those numbers is doing nothing more than stealing, and pulling a scam. Michael Farmer http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa20851.jpg.JPG The photo above is NWA 2085. Now that is a meteorite to drool over! __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite?
Dear Martin, No one can argue against personal views. ALH 84001 is a very interesting meteorite for sure. But it remains highly subjective and is biased by temporary fashion or even hype. I think, ALH 84001 is a good example for such a hype. A group reports evidence for extraterrestrial life with much public noise (I assume also with the background idea to booster public funding for NASA). There are strong arguments by other research groups against a biogenic origin of these fossil-like features. As far as I know, there majority of scientists currently disapprove. About 40 years ago, another group around Bartholomew Nagy announced the recovery of extraterrestrial lifeforms in carbonaceous chondrites (see e.g. http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/O/Orgueil.html). There was much hype at that time about these findings and some people for sure would have called Orgueil the most important meteorite in history. For the development of meteoritics and in historical perspective, I still think that CURRENTLY Allende has the by far strongest impact. Some meteoriticists are talking about a "pre-Allende" and a "post-Allende" era. Allende has contributed so much to the our understanding of the origin and development of the solar system. Jörn > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. November 2004 14:49 > An: Jörn Koblitz > Cc: Adam Hupe; Walter Branch; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite? > > > Jörn kindly wrote: > > > Most important meteorite: ALH 84001 or NWA 3133? > > > > I think it is difficult to say and is always biased by the personal > > preferences of the collector or scientist, > > but there is a fairly objective measure (at least for scientific > > importance): the number of publications on a specific meteorite. > > Hi Jörn and All, > > I struggled with this same question in my lastest column in > Meteorite Magazine. I reviewed meteorite books counting the > number of times particular meteorites were referenced in > their historical or scientific context. My focus was on those > meteorites that were instrumental in changing our collective > understanding of meteorites. I narrowed the pool further > based upon significant contributions compared to supporting > contributions. Sure, the list of suspects could be longer, > but I doubt it could be any shorter. > > As for ALH84001, I believe the most important contributions > it has made are that ALH84001: 1) was the focus of a US Presidential p > ress conference, 2) forced us to (yet again) adjust our > collective understanding of evidence of life, and 3) definded > a period of meteorite studies that involved widespread > popular discussion that (my poetic license here) had not been > seen since L'Aigle. > > I did not mention the particular specimens in the article > here. Sorry about that, but that is what purchasing a > subscription is all about > > Meteorite Magazine subscription info @: > > http://www.meteor.co.nz/ > > Cheers, > > Martin H > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re: Blaine Reed's yahoo group
Hi All Blaine wanted me to let everyone know that he will be making a sale post to his list within a day or two. He will not be using this list to place ads. So if you want a chance to see what he has for sale please sign up for his list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brmeteorites_list/ If you have any questions don't hesitate to email your questions. Mike Mike Jensen IMCA 4264 Bill Jensen IMCA 2359 Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: AW: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite?
Jörn kindly wrote: "About 40 years ago, another group around Bartholomew Nagy announced the recovery of extraterrestrial lifeforms in carbonaceous chondrites..." Hello again, And if one continues further back in time to 1879, Otto Hann though he found plant fossils in thin sections of Knyahinya and other meteorites. And before that, Carl A. Gumbel searched for organic structures in carbonaceous chondrites, in particular Cold Bokkeveld and Kaba. There is no shortage of important meteorites, and Allende is, no doubt, one of the most important stones ever both in shear quantity, scientific importance, and fall timing. However, we must not forget the shoulders upon which we stand. Cheers, Martin H __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Blaine and David
Hello Al, Mike, list, Nothing to add to the below statement as Al perfectly summarized who is Blaine. Although I like to diversify my purchase sources, many of my own meteorites came from David and Blaine as well. These 2 guys were (David) and are (Blaine) among the most reputable and reliable meteorite experts I have experienced. Their main goal was always to have their customers fully satisfied, sometimes at the expense of their profit. I use to deal with David since...1975 (minerals) and shifted my interests to meteorites thanks to him, after a couple of visits in his area (Washington state) in 1992. Unfortunately he is now out of business, but he is still active in many other (related or not) topics and I have the privilege to still share with him interesting mails at least once a week. You might know that he is one of the initiators of the new TCU meteorite exhibit along with his friend Art Ehlmann (museum curator). I haven't had the posibility to visit this said outstanding exhibit but, knowing David and his extended expertise in largely contributing to select the about 1,200 (!) most significant meteorites worth being shown (along with the unvaluable collection already gathered by Oscar Monnig for years and that was at TCU), I only could encourage everybody (including myself!) to visit one day this exhibit and just appreciate (see a report on that in a recent "Meteorite" issue). In 1993, I met Blaine at the Denver show and, after an interesting purchase of very valuable and extremely fairly priced meteorites at his booth there, I use to rely on him and deal with him on a regular and very satisfactory basis. This is being currently done through his reputed regular lists he uses to send us by regular mail. I believe that the creation of the new sales lists through Yahoo mail (thanks Mike for detailed info, it fairly succeeded to get included) will (continue to) provide to everyone a good opportunity to at least have a look at the items Blaine happens to find out here and there and propose for our collections for our outmost pleasure and satisfaction. I wish all the dealers from this list behave the fair and friendly way Blaine and David did, for the best mutual profit of both parties, thus you, dealers, in achieving sane business and us, collectors, to continue to fulfill our passions with significant and affordable samples. Perhaps this is one of the main reasons why this list was created ? Regards to all, Zelimir A 15:24 15/11/04 -0500, vous avez écrit : Hi Mike and list, Just a note to encourage list members to subscribe to Blaines new sells list. Blaine Reed has been a dealer for more years than most dealers and is a little along the lines of David New, except he is still in business. Blaine is a full time dealer and has great prices and a wide variety of items available and comes up with many new and neat hard to find items from time to time. He is also one of the most reputable and consciences dealers that I have ever known. He knows more about meteorites than any ten dealers, myself included and is always fun to talk to in this regards. He also isn't a high pressure salesmen and works with folks to see they get what they want and certainly stands behind what he sales. Hope to see folks on his list with his offerings. All my best to all! --AL Mitterling __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Prof. Zelimir Gabelica Université de Haute Alsace ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC, 3, Rue A. Werner, F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94 Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Magazine comments
Al and list, no question, lets go for it. We should add that the task is not too difficult. Last time I mentioned Meteorite Magazine to a friend he subscribed right away. He just recieved his first issue today and is full of praise. (first score!;) Svend Buhl www.niger-meteorite-recon.de almitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb am 16.11.04 16:40:24: Hello Dr. Svend Buhl and list, I would like to challenge people on the list to a sort of contest. Lets see who can get the most Meteorite Magazine subscriptions from now until the end of the year! Winner gets a paid subscription for a full year (and yes it counts as one of my totals :-) and I'll throw in a meteorite along with that. I'll pick a nice specimen out that I have worked on. I'll annouce what it is in a few days. It is a good way to get new people interested in meteorites, expand Meteorite Magazine's subscription list and have a bit of fun while we are at it. So what do you say? Are you up to it? Let the subsciptions begin! All my best and comments welcome. --AL Mitterling "Dr. Svend Buhl" wrote: But there is also an appeal by the editor which I may forward to this list since not all of its members have the opportunity to read this unique periodical. He is asking us to support his endeavors by helping to build up the community of readers. Just be creative. Donate a subscription to your local school or planetarium or present a gift subscription to a friend or acquaintance who is interested in meteorites. Link the Meteorite Magazine homepage (http://www.meteor.co.nz/) from your site. Take a copy to meteorite fairs and exhibitions and display it on your table. Recommend it to fellow dealers and clients. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Blaine and David
Hi Zelmir and List, Unfortunattely I never met David New but Blaine Reed is as honest and fair a meteorite dealer as you will meet. He doesn't go for a lot of hype either. I don't think I have ever had a bad deal with Blaine and for the newcomers, if you don't sign up for Blain's list you will be missing out. I get his mailings and the fist thing I do when I see it has arrived in the mailbox is literally rip it open, scan it then I am on the phone to Blaine as I can usually find something I want from almost every list. -Walter - - Original Message - From: "Zelimir Gabelica" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Blaine and David Hello Al, Mike, list, Nothing to add to the below statement as Al perfectly summarized who is Blaine. Although I like to diversify my purchase sources, many of my own meteorites came from David and Blaine as well. These 2 guys were (David) and are (Blaine) among the most reputable and reliable meteorite experts I have experienced. Their main goal was always to have their customers fully satisfied, sometimes at the expense of their profit. I use to deal with David since...1975 (minerals) and shifted my interests to meteorites thanks to him, after a couple of visits in his area (Washington state) in 1992. Unfortunately he is now out of business, but he is still active in many other (related or not) topics and I have the privilege to still share with him interesting mails at least once a week. You might know that he is one of the initiators of the new TCU meteorite exhibit along with his friend Art Ehlmann (museum curator). I haven't had the posibility to visit this said outstanding exhibit but, knowing David and his extended expertise in largely contributing to select the about 1,200 (!) most significant meteorites worth being shown (along with the unvaluable collection already gathered by Oscar Monnig for years and that was at TCU), I only could encourage everybody (including myself!) to visit one day this exhibit and just appreciate (see a report on that in a recent "Meteorite" issue). In 1993, I met Blaine at the Denver show and, after an interesting purchase of very valuable and extremely fairly priced meteorites at his booth there, I use to rely on him and deal with him on a regular and very satisfactory basis. This is being currently done through his reputed regular lists he uses to send us by regular mail. I believe that the creation of the new sales lists through Yahoo mail (thanks Mike for detailed info, it fairly succeeded to get included) will (continue to) provide to everyone a good opportunity to at least have a look at the items Blaine happens to find out here and there and propose for our collections for our outmost pleasure and satisfaction. I wish all the dealers from this list behave the fair and friendly way Blaine and David did, for the best mutual profit of both parties, thus you, dealers, in achieving sane business and us, collectors, to continue to fulfill our passions with significant and affordable samples. Perhaps this is one of the main reasons why this list was created ? Regards to all, Zelimir A 15:24 15/11/04 -0500, vous avez écrit : >Hi Mike and list, > >Just a note to encourage list members to subscribe to Blaines new sells >list. Blaine >Reed has been a dealer for more years than most dealers and is a little >along the >lines of David New, except he is still in business. Blaine is a full time >dealer and >has great prices and a wide variety of items available and comes up with >many new >and neat hard to find items from time to time. He is also one of the most >reputable >and consciences dealers that I have ever known. He knows more about >meteorites than >any ten dealers, myself included and is always fun to talk to in this regards. > >He also isn't a high pressure salesmen and works with folks to see they >get what >they want and certainly stands behind what he sales. Hope to see folks on >his list >with his offerings. All my best to all! > >--AL Mitterling > >__ >Meteorite-list mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Prof. Zelimir Gabelica Université de Haute Alsace ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC, 3, Rue A. Werner, F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94 Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Magazine comments
Dear Fellow Meteorite Enthusiasts, A few facts that you ought to know. Color pictures in Meteorite magazine cost the publisher a great deal. Hence their cost limits the use in each edition. Each time I renew I put in $50.00 extra to help support the continued quality of this highly respected publication. Just a suggestion to consider; after all it is our most important meteorite news source. Bill Mason "rusty" -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dr. Svend Buhl Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:11 PM To: almitt Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Magazine comments Al and list, no question, lets go for it. We should add that the task is not too difficult. Last time I mentioned Meteorite Magazine to a friend he subscribed right away. He just recieved his first issue today and is full of praise. (first score!;) Svend Buhl www.niger-meteorite-recon.de almitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb am 16.11.04 16:40:24: Hello Dr. Svend Buhl and list, I would like to challenge people on the list to a sort of contest. Lets see who can get the most Meteorite Magazine subscriptions from now until the end of the year! Winner gets a paid subscription for a full year (and yes it counts as one of my totals :-) and I'll throw in a meteorite along with that. I'll pick a nice specimen out that I have worked on. I'll annouce what it is in a few days. It is a good way to get new people interested in meteorites, expand Meteorite Magazine's subscription list and have a bit of fun while we are at it. So what do you say? Are you up to it? Let the subsciptions begin! All my best and comments welcome. --AL Mitterling "Dr. Svend Buhl" wrote: But there is also an appeal by the editor which I may forward to this list since not all of its members have the opportunity to read this unique periodical. He is asking us to support his endeavors by helping to build up the community of readers. Just be creative. Donate a subscription to your local school or planetarium or present a gift subscription to a friend or acquaintance who is interested in meteorites. Link the Meteorite Magazine homepage (http://www.meteor.co.nz/) from your site. Take a copy to meteorite fairs and exhibitions and display it on your table. Recommend it to fellow dealers and clients. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] BIG NWA869 SALE ON EBAY
These NWA869 auctions have all been listed by my new wife who has inherited my AZTECFEAST ebay user id. Click here or do an ebay search on AZTECFEAST if this link dont work. http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQcatrefZC6QQfromZR7QQnojsprZyQQnojsprZyQQpfidZ0QQsacategoryZQ2d1QQsassZaztecfeastQQsatitleZQQsinceZ30QQsofindtypeZ15QQsofocusZbsQQsorecordsperpageZ200QQsorecordsperpageZ50QQsosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1QQsspagenameZhQ3ahQ3aadvsearchQ3aUS She has around 400 meteorite auctions listed - mostly NWA869. She she has been very busy and has lots of meteorites there for you to look over. If you look over my usual AMUNRE ebay user id you will probably find a few more meteorites although since I have gotten somebody else to do my work for me I sort of have gotton lazy so my auction numbers are down now. But look over both AZTECFEAST and AMUNRE and you will find lots of meteorites Cheers DEAN __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
Anyone out there got any opinions on this? Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite. http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti. Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given this number: http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced. Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any way. Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even come close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules, multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there are clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at top, very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom, smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated. These meteorites are totally different. I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this. What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that my stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you doing this? Edwin Thompson is the one who is using a whole host of my numbers, I have not spoken with him yet, but there is no justification for it other than trying to pawn off unclassified meteorites as names pieces. This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market. We are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do things right. I would NEVER sell someone a meteorite that is not what it is claimed to be. But this is what these dealers are doing, making visual pairings to keep from having to do their own work. Buyer beware, it seems that the only way to get official material is to buy from the dealer who made the official classification. Michael Farmer Awaiting a response from Polandmet and Edwin Thompson. http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Ad - More Awesome Auctions Ending!
Dear List Members, Auctions representing over 130 great specimens are ending tonight. Many are still just 99 cents representing some true bargains. This week's rare material special is NWA3139, a rare CK4 with a TKW of only 130 grams. This is a very nice looking CK with black chondrules. To see these auctions and other officially classified items of interest please click on the link below and go to "Go see all current items for sale by this member." The weekly rare material specials are always listed last so you will have to go to the bottom of the list. http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=meteoritelab We have a piece of the ultra cool NWA 3133 running at this link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2284272955 And several other nice meteorites can be found at this link: http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=raremeteorites True bargains can always be found on our ebay auctions because there are never reserves and most items are started out at just 99 cents. Remember to buy with confidence because we are rated number one on ebay with a greater than 7:1 return customer ratio. This is the highest level ever achieved by far in the meteorite/tektite subsection. This means several things, customers are pleased with pricing, selection, quality and customer service. Thank you for looking and if you are bidding, good luck. Adam and Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection Team LunarRock IMCA 2185 [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
Mike (Farmer) wrote: > This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market. We > are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do > things right. I would NEVER sell someone a meteorite that is not > what it is claimed to be. I would like to publicly thank Mike for presenting his, in all probability, justified criticism and dislike of what is going on with *his* NWA numbers, in a way that leaves no doubt about how angry he is about what is going on, but, at the same time, also in a way that is without personal attacks and rude words. I, for my part, very much appreciate this toned-down but very clear and unambiguous criticism because it *does* show that it is possible to utter one's dislike in a civil way, although the message is absolutely clear and urges the person(s) he is addressing to justify their doings. Kudos from Germany !!! Best wishes, Bernd P.S.: This mail does not automatically imply that I think the persons mentioned in Mike's mail are "guilty" of what they are accused. This mail is only meant to show that is should be possible to sort things out without jumping at each other's throats ... so, let's hope for the best and let's hope the persons involved will clear this up in a "cordial", in a "peaceful", in a "list family" way. Keeping my fingers crossed !!! __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 3133
"stan ." wrote:
> I belive David Weir published the preliminary reclassification data > on the
> list not too long ago.
Actually I was only passing along a post from Nelson since he was having
e-mail trouble, and of course he is the owner who had this one
classified. Interestingly, a comparison of NWA 1839 with NWA 3133
doesn't appear to be a very close match in mineral composition, though
it does appear somewhat close in some elemental ratios. O-isotopic
ratios show for D17O: -3.81 to -4.18 for 1839, and -3.34 to -3.53 for
3133, but I have no idea of the significance of the spread in these
numbers. Suffice it to say they both plot near the CCAM line near CV
chondrites. So I'm just waiting for one of the primary scientists to
make a determination on their possible pairing.
The classification data for NWA 1839 and NWA 3133 is repeated below,
thanks to the Hupes and Oakes.
David
-
Northwest Africa 1839
Morocco
Found 2003
Primitive achondrite (ungrouped)
A 121.8 g, partially crusted stone was purchased in Rissani, Morocco in
June 2003. Description and classification (T. Bunch and J. Wittke, NAU):
polygonal, equigranular (<0.75 mm grain size); no relict chondrules;
prominent twinning in plagioclase. Mineral modes: orthopyroxene, 37 vol.
%; olivine, 35 vol. %; plagioclase, 12 vol. %; Ca-rich pyroxene, 6 vol.
%; troilite, 4.5 vol. %; metal (taenite only), 3.5 vol. %; chromite, 2
vol. %. Very homogeneous; silicate compositional range is within the
analytical precision of ± 0.2 mol %. Orthopyroxene, Fs18.9Wo2.3, FeO/MnO
= 41; olivine, Fa22.0, FeO/MnO = 63; plagioclase, An53.4Or2.2;
clinopyroxene, Fs7.2Wo47; taenite, Ni = 16.7 wt. %; chromite, Cr/(Cr+Al)
= 73. Oxygen isotope (D. Rumble, CIW) replicate analyses of acid-washed,
bulk sample by laser fluorination gave d18O = 0.51 and -0.73, d17O =
-3.54 and -4.57; D17O = - 4.18 and - 3.81 that plot near the CCAM line
and within the region of CV compositions. Shock level, S1; weathering
grade is W2. Specimens: 20.1 g, NAU; main mass, Oakes.
NWA 3133
found in Northwest Africa (as several stones totaling 4 kg) has a
metamorphic texture with 120deg triple grain junctions (mean grainsize =
0.28 mm); no chondrules are present. Olivine (46 vol.%;
Fa_{22}, FeO/MnO = 64) and orthopyroxene (28 vol.%; Fs_{18.9}Wo_{2.3},
FeO/MnO = 42) are the most abundant phases, with less intermediate
plagioclase (An_{53.5}Or_{2.3}), Cr-diopside (Fs_{7.5}Wo_{48.3},
Cr_{2}O_{3} = 0.71 wt.%), Al-Ti-bearing chromite (Cr/(Cr+Al) = 0.73,
TiO_{2} = 2.6 wt.%), Na-Mg-bearing merrillite, troilite (1-5 wt.% Ni)
and Fe-Ni metal (15-20 wt.% Ni). Clinopyroxene, chromite and merrillite
are inhomogeneously distributed as relatively large grains. Metal is
partially altered to limonite (W1-2), and minor limonite and calcite
occur along grain boundaries. Oxygen isotopic compositions (delta^17O,
delta^18O) determined in two laboratories by laser fluorination on
handpicked olivine (-3.67, +0.94; -3.62, +0.89; -2.91, +1.78 per mil)
and on acid-washed whole rock fragments (-2.25, +2.46; -1.75, +3.06 per
mil) plot on the mixing line for Allende and other CV3 chondrites. Thus,
NWA 3133 could be regarded as the first known "CV7 chondrite", and may
have been formed by metamorphic recrystallization (or perhaps igneous
processes) in the CV parent body. Other meteorites with oxygen and/or Cr
isotopic affinities to the CV3 chondrites are the three members of the
Eagle Station pallasite grouplet and the silicated irons Bocaiuva and
NWA 176 (Clayton and Mayeda., 1996; Liu et al, 2001; Shukolyukov and
Lugmair, 2001). Our inference from these data is that the CV parent body
was an at least partially differentiated (and relatively large) object
consisting of a metal+silicate core region surrounded by a presumably
silicate-rich mantle and a chondrule-CAI-rich regolith, the deepest
portions of which were metamorphosed and/or partially melted to form
primitive achondritic lithologies.
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Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Yes, I, indeed, do have an opinion: It is one thing to lamblast Matteo, who has dealt dirty with numerous members of this list or even to sling mud back & forth between yourself and Adam - it is quite another to go off on a person of E.T.'s dignity, venerable tenure and hard earned reputation for honesty! Anyone on this list who has dealt with ET will tell you he bends over backwards for even the most obnoxious customer (I have SEEN him do this, myself), NEVER rips people off and has been dealing meteorites as long as anyone (and I mean ANYONE) in the business. You even ADMIT you have not spoken to him about this, so WHAT IN THE HELL are you doing posting it to the list!? Get a grip. If you somehow lack contact information, contact me and I will be happy to supply you with his phone number and email address. If you can't manage to act like a gentleman, at least pretend to have a modicum of decency and good business sense! Sincerely, Michael Blood on 11/16/04 1:14 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Anyone out there got any opinions on this? > Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite. > http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm > This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti. > > Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given this > number: > http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm > > The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced. > Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any > way. > Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even come > close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules, > multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there are > clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at top, > very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom, > smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated. > These meteorites are totally different. > > I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this. > What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that my > stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you doing > this? > > Edwin Thompson is the one who is using a whole host of my numbers, I have > not spoken with him yet, but there is no justification for it other than > trying to pawn off unclassified meteorites as names pieces. > > This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market. > We are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do things > right. I would NEVER sell someone a meteorite that is not what it is claimed > to be. > But this is what these dealers are doing, making visual pairings to keep > from having to do their own work. > Buyer beware, it seems that the only way to get official material is to buy > from the dealer who made the official classification. > Michael Farmer > Awaiting a response from Polandmet and Edwin Thompson. > > http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Michael, you seem to leave out the obvious, he is using numbers for meteorites sitting in my safe, I paid to have classified and worked. Michael, can you explain that, or does it not matter since he is your friend. This is very simple Michael, no genius needed here. I will make it simple though Guy A owns an item. Guy B starts selling the same item which is not possible since it is sitting guy A's safe. Who is the liar here? Guy A who paid to have the stone classified or Guy B who did not? So calm down Blood, and look at things rationally. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Yes, I, indeed, do have an opinion: It is one thing to lamblast Matteo, who has dealt dirty with numerous members of this list or even to sling mud back & forth between yourself and Adam - it is quite another to go off on a person of E.T.'s dignity, venerable tenure and hard earned reputation for honesty! Anyone on this list who has dealt with ET will tell you he bends over backwards for even the most obnoxious customer (I have SEEN him do this, myself), NEVER rips people off and has been dealing meteorites as long as anyone (and I mean ANYONE) in the business. You even ADMIT you have not spoken to him about this, so WHAT IN THE HELL are you doing posting it to the list!? Get a grip. If you somehow lack contact information, contact me and I will be happy to supply you with his phone number and email address. If you can't manage to act like a gentleman, at least pretend to have a modicum of decency and good business sense! Sincerely, Michael Blood on 11/16/04 1:14 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone out there got any opinions on this? Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite. http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti. Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given this number: http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced. Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any way. Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even come close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules, multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there are clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at top, very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom, smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated. These meteorites are totally different. I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this. What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that my stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you doing this? Edwin Thompson is the one who is using a whole host of my numbers, I have not spoken with him yet, but there is no justification for it other than trying to pawn off unclassified meteorites as names pieces. This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market. We are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do things right. I would NEVER sell someone a meteorite that is not what it is claimed to be. But this is what these dealers are doing, making visual pairings to keep from having to do their own work. Buyer beware, it seems that the only way to get official material is to buy from the dealer who made the official classification. Michael Farmer Awaiting a response from Polandmet and Edwin Thompson. http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Michael, I am incensed by your email. Edwin is publicly using numbers that pertain to my stones, so why not publicly call him out? A real gentleman would not steal other people's numbers or try to pawn off stones with numbers which do not pertain to them. Endwin NEVER once contacted me regarding these stones. So Michael, this is the most simple complaint I have made. This is hurting me and my business with people mooching off of my work. So tell me how this is uncalled for? Time to pay the piper and get this problem dealt with. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Yes, I, indeed, do have an opinion: It is one thing to lamblast Matteo, who has dealt dirty with numerous members of this list or even to sling mud back & forth between yourself and Adam - it is quite another to go off on a person of E.T.'s dignity, venerable tenure and hard earned reputation for honesty! Anyone on this list who has dealt with ET will tell you he bends over backwards for even the most obnoxious customer (I have SEEN him do this, myself), NEVER rips people off and has been dealing meteorites as long as anyone (and I mean ANYONE) in the business. You even ADMIT you have not spoken to him about this, so WHAT IN THE HELL are you doing posting it to the list!? Get a grip. If you somehow lack contact information, contact me and I will be happy to supply you with his phone number and email address. If you can't manage to act like a gentleman, at least pretend to have a modicum of decency and good business sense! Sincerely, Michael Blood on 11/16/04 1:14 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone out there got any opinions on this? Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite. http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti. Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given this number: http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced. Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any way. Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even come close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules, multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there are clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at top, very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom, smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated. These meteorites are totally different. I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this. What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that my stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you doing this? Edwin Thompson is the one who is using a whole host of my numbers, I have not spoken with him yet, but there is no justification for it other than trying to pawn off unclassified meteorites as names pieces. This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market. We are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do things right. I would NEVER sell someone a meteorite that is not what it is claimed to be. But this is what these dealers are doing, making visual pairings to keep from having to do their own work. Buyer beware, it seems that the only way to get official material is to buy from the dealer who made the official classification. Michael Farmer Awaiting a response from Polandmet and Edwin Thompson. http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Hi Mike, The issue I made is NOT who is right or wrong. If you were to post a very similar announcement, saying you had addressed this issue with ET and was told to take a long walk off a short pier and he didn't care what you thought about what he was doing and you think collectors should be aware this is going on - THAT WOULD BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT situation. Instead, you FIRST publicly chastise him. Whatever is going on - that is a poor start at ANY attempt for remedy, regardless of the circumstances involved. You don't know what is take on the situation is - you haven't even addressed the issue with him. MAYBE there is a good explanation - MAYBE there isn't. MAYBE he looked at it one way and will change his perspective once he hears what you have to say - MAYBE he won't we don't know, because YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT. There are a good many of us who will be far more interested in ANY issue you have with any other dealer IF you report civil attempts to resolve the issue on your part met with a lack of cooperation on their part. THEN I start wondering what is going on. Then I start listening to the content. However, when it is a one way mud throwing event, all I see is mud throwing - the content is unimportant to me if the process isn't clean. Other than that, thanks for a relatively civil response on your part. Sincerely, Michael on 11/16/04 3:10 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Michael, you seem to leave out the obvious, he is using numbers for > meteorites sitting in my safe, I paid to have classified and worked. > Michael, can you explain that, or does it not matter since he is your > friend. > This is very simple Michael, no genius needed here. > I will make it simple though > Guy A owns an item. > Guy B starts selling the same item which is not possible since it is sitting > guy A's safe. > Who is the liar here? Guy A who paid to have the stone classified or Guy B > who did not? > So calm down Blood, and look at things rationally. > Michael Farmer > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:57 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business > > >> Yes, >>I, indeed, do have an opinion: >>It is one thing to lamblast Matteo, who has dealt dirty with >> numerous members of this list or even to sling mud back & forth >> between yourself and Adam - it is quite another to go off on >> a person of E.T.'s dignity, venerable tenure and hard earned >> reputation for honesty! >>Anyone on this list who has dealt with ET will tell you he >> bends over backwards for even the most obnoxious customer >> (I have SEEN him do this, myself), NEVER rips people off and >> has been dealing meteorites as long as anyone (and I mean >> ANYONE) in the business. >>You even ADMIT you have not spoken to him about this, >> so WHAT IN THE HELL are you doing posting it to the list!? >>Get a grip. >>If you somehow lack contact information, contact me and I >> will be happy to supply you with his phone number and email >> address. >>If you can't manage to act like a gentleman, at least pretend >> to have a modicum of decency and good business sense! >>Sincerely, Michael Blood >> >> >> on 11/16/04 1:14 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >>> Anyone out there got any opinions on this? >>> Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite. >>> http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm >>> This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti. >>> >>> Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given >>> this >>> number: >>> http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm >>> >>> The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced. >>> Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any >>> way. >>> Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even >>> come >>> close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules, >>> multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there >>> are >>> clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at >>> top, >>> very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom, >>> smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated. >>> These meteorites are totally different. >>> >>> I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this. >>> What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that >>> my >>> stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you doing >>> this? >>> >>> Edwin Thompson is the one who is using a whole host of my numbers, I have >>> not spoken with him yet, but there is no justification for it other than >>> trying
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Again Michael, first off he is selling publicly, so why should it not be discussed publicly? The damage has been done to me in public, so I see no need to try and hush this up. I know that Edwin and you are good friends, and that you depend on his stuff for sale and for your auctions, so I would suggest to you that when you have stuff listed for your upcoming Tucson auction, that you make a disclaimer that tells people who submit that they better know what they are submitting and should have the rights to use the classification. I fear that a scene will ensue if I come into your auction and find meteorites being falsely sold there using my numbers. I have spoken privately today to several people and this is a problem which is about to explode. Freeloaders are too lazy or cheap to do their own work and are mooching off of those dealers and collectors who take the time and spend their hard-earned money to make all of the analyses. I will not stand by quietly while people are mooching off of my work, and selling an item using false pairing claims. This is extremely serious business. I have more money that you know invested in my work and my stones, and I will not allow people to try and lump their stuff under my numbers. How do you collectors feel? You are being had, being sold rocks with cards and the expectation that it is what they say it is, and now we see that isn't the case! Your stones may be worth far less than you realize if pairings are being made by looking at the outside of a stone! I think it is time to demand paperwork from your dealers, classification data on stones, showing that it is what they say, or is fully classified as a pairing. That is the only way we can stop this scam, is by forcing people to show documentation to prove it is what they claim it is. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Hi Mike, The issue I made is NOT who is right or wrong. If you were to post a very similar announcement, saying you had addressed this issue with ET and was told to take a long walk off a short pier and he didn't care what you thought about what he was doing and you think collectors should be aware this is going on - THAT WOULD BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT situation. Instead, you FIRST publicly chastise him. Whatever is going on - that is a poor start at ANY attempt for remedy, regardless of the circumstances involved. You don't know what is take on the situation is - you haven't even addressed the issue with him. MAYBE there is a good explanation - MAYBE there isn't. MAYBE he looked at it one way and will change his perspective once he hears what you have to say - MAYBE he won't we don't know, because YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT. There are a good many of us who will be far more interested in ANY issue you have with any other dealer IF you report civil attempts to resolve the issue on your part met with a lack of cooperation on their part. THEN I start wondering what is going on. Then I start listening to the content. However, when it is a one way mud throwing event, all I see is mud throwing - the content is unimportant to me if the process isn't clean. Other than that, thanks for a relatively civil response on your part. Sincerely, Michael on 11/16/04 3:10 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael, you seem to leave out the obvious, he is using numbers for meteorites sitting in my safe, I paid to have classified and worked. Michael, can you explain that, or does it not matter since he is your friend. This is very simple Michael, no genius needed here. I will make it simple though Guy A owns an item. Guy B starts selling the same item which is not possible since it is sitting guy A's safe. Who is the liar here? Guy A who paid to have the stone classified or Guy B who did not? So calm down Blood, and look at things rationally. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Yes, I, indeed, do have an opinion: It is one thing to lamblast Matteo, who has dealt dirty with numerous members of this list or even to sling mud back & forth between yourself and Adam - it is quite another to go off on a person of E.T.'s dignity, venerable tenure and hard earned reputation for honesty! Anyone on this list who has dealt with ET will tell you he bends over backwards for even the most obnoxious customer (I have SEEN him do this, myself), NEVER rips people off and has been dealing meteorites as long as anyone (and I me
Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
Hello list. I will try to answer to every questions that Mike is asking here. > Anyone out there got any opinions on this? > Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite. > http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm > This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti. > > Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given this > number: > http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm Yes on photos they looks different. I newer see Your specimens in real, but also I never know that NWA1906 is "Your" number. But this WHY i named is as NWA1906 I will explain bottom. > > The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced. > Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any > way. > Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even come > close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules, > multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there are > clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at top, > very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom, > smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated. > These meteorites are totally different. Yes, specimen on top I buy first, second specimen was purchased later, but both stones are THE SAME METEORITE. I not delete photos from sold slices from first specimen to SHOW that every slice, begin from endpiece have less " normall orange" matrix and more perfect chondrules matrix, and finally last slices have only perfect chondrules and no "orange" matrix. This is any kind of chondrite-rich inclusion, just a special specimen. I hope photos explain everything. > I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this. I publicly answering , but I not understand why You doing this publicly. If I make a "crime" against "Your" numbers we should resolve this off-line, becouse this is case beetween us. From my side results of my answer will be the same as when this will be readed by 600 persons or only by you. > What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that my > stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you doing > this? I purchased this specimen in Morocco. I was there for the first time last april. I buy it from a well know Maroccan dealer AS NWA1906. Later in June I saw in Ensisheim other persons selling THE SAME material as NWA1906 R4 and NWA2289 R3-6. Comparing photos is not the same as comparing material in real, slice to slice under loupe. So I was sure that I have NWA1906 and NWA2289. So I start selling this without any BAD intention to anyone. Just another meteorite, as other that I buy in Morocco. Im only astonished Mike, why u asking me about NWA1906 right now ? I not sell on ebay this meteorite for more than month, where You should see it as possible wrong named material ? Why u not sended this email in september when I selling few slices per week, and announced it on this list many times ? Why this happend right now ? > This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market. > We are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do things > right. I would NEVER sell someone a meteorite that is not what it is claimed > to be. > But this is what these dealers are doing, making visual pairings to keep > from having to do their own work. > Buyer beware, it seems that the only way to get official material is to buy > from the dealer who made the official classification. > Michael Farmer > Awaiting a response from Polandmet and Edwin Thompson. Last word Now we have a little different view for some things. I talking about all this emails from Hupes Team about NWA1877 / NWA1110 not autorised sale. But half year ago I must say that I not thinking much about this if my Rumuruti is NWA1906 or not. I was sure that I sell right meteorite, the same as IM SURE that I sell now Amgala as Amgala, NWA869 as NWA869, Gao-Guenie as Gao-Guenie or Kilabo as Kilabo. Becouse e.g. someone is "owner" of Gao-Guenie name so I should classify my next shipment from Burkina Faso as Gao-Guenie (f) or Ouagadougou H5, becouse I buy it from this city, not from Gao village. The same is with many other meteorites. So why here NWA1906 can be exception ? Who is "owner" of Amgala name ? Tell me please if I have right to use this name for my specimens purchased in Morocco ? Ask Dean Bessey if his lot of Amgalas comes from right source or maybe he just buy them on desert and his WISH is that he have Amgala? All dealers who just buying for example Ben-Sours or Taza in Morocco. Why they are "sure" that they have the original material ? I think that my pairing, using my own eyes is not exception. Many dealers, include You Mike, classify meteorites "on the fly" using loupes or You just TRUST Your marocan friend. I just trusted person I meet in Morocco. Now I see that I should be more carefull. But importand is that my mete
[meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
I'm with Mike Farmer on this. First, to lay out the issues without any name calling is NOT mudslinging. Second, think of the following analogy. I rob a bank and get caught red handed. Someone contacts me privately and offers me a chance to return the money and my identity will never be revealed to the public. Do you think the public's interest is served? If Mr. Thompson has a good explanation, I'm sure he will make it known and each list member can make his own evaluation. Meantime I think this is a very serious business. I've invested many thousands of dollars in my meteorite collection. How am I to know if what I paid for is what I'm told it is? It is based on trust. If various dealers are claiming to be selling material that they don't have and maybe others are relying on "pairings" based on looks or an opinion where does it end? This could be just the tip of the iceberg. For example, I bought a piece of Lueders, a Silicated Iron. To me it looks a lot like a piece of silicated campo, What's the difference, they're both IAB Irons? Well, one is worth 5-10 times as much as the other. Once trust in the sellers of meteorites breaks down, it would call into question the value of all the rare material in our collections!! From what I've heard so far, I'm not likely to ever take my chances on a dealer who does not adhere to nomcom rules. And equally unlikely to purchase from persons who ridicule attempts to keep the selling of meteorites from descending into an bottomless pit of unverifiable pairings and unauthorized number piggybacking. My 2 cents. Mike Fowler Chicago -- Michael Blood wrote: The issue I made is NOT who is right or wrong. If you were to post a very similar announcement, saying you had addressed this issue with ET and was told to take a long walk off a short pier and he didn't care what you thought about what he was doing and you think collectors should be aware this is going on - THAT WOULD BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT situation. Instead, you FIRST publicly chastise him. Whatever is going on - that is a poor start at ANY attempt for remedy, regardless of the circumstances involved. You don't know what is take on the situation is - you haven't even addressed the issue with him. MAYBE there is a good explanation - MAYBE there isn't. MAYBE he looked at it one way and will change his perspective once he hears what you have to say - MAYBE he won't we don't know, because YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT. There are a good many of us who will be far more interested in ANY issue you have with any other dealer IF you report civil attempts to resolve the issue on your part met with a lack of cooperation on their part. THEN I start wondering what is going on. Then I start listening to the content. However, when it is a one way mud throwing event, all I see is mud throwing - the content is unimportant to me if the process isn't clean. Other than that, thanks for a relatively civil response on your part. Sincerely, Michael - __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
I think Marcin deserves our support for the honorable way he has responded to this problem. Mike Fowler Chicago PS The chondrules in the "not-NWA 1906" are georgeous!! -- Marcin of Polandmet wrote: At last: Comparing now Your photos with all specimens of NWA1906 I saw on fairs or internet and with all my specimens I must say that THIS IS NOT THE SAME MATERIAL. I make mistake. But I not do this with Bad intention. I not named my material as NWA1906 becouse this number was first I saw or becouse I wanted make anything against You Mike. I can say only "Im sorry Mike". I will right now stop selling this meteorite as NWA1906, and anyone who buy this meteorite from me and are unhappy, can return specimens with full refund. PS, Material that was sell by me as NWA1906 was also classified as NWA2289 R3-6. For compare NWA2289 R3-6 http://www.meteoriten.com/special.html For me its the same meteorite and now this cant be another mistake, but ofcourse I will not rename my rumuruti to another "good" number. -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
on 11/16/04 4:44 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I know that Edwin and you are good friends, and that you depend on his stuff > for sale and for your auctions, - Actually, Mike, I don't think ET has EVER sold a single specimen in any of my auctions. Not one. Michael __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
In all fairness, this "scam" and "mooching" has been the way of things for a couple hundred years now. Just because the Nom Com has imposed different naming rules on NWA meteorites does not mean that every Gao, every Murchison, every L'Aigle hasn't been sold by this mooching scam. It is not called theft in the non-NWA arena, it is called competition. Every dealer is in a glass house in this regard and blinding the real issue, a quick fix effort by the Nom Com versus really coming up with a viable mutual solution, is destructive to the dealers and collectors alike. Rob Wesel -- We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Again Michael, first off he is selling publicly, so why should it not be discussed publicly? The damage has been done to me in public, so I see no need to try and hush this up. I know that Edwin and you are good friends, and that you depend on his stuff for sale and for your auctions, so I would suggest to you that when you have stuff listed for your upcoming Tucson auction, that you make a disclaimer that tells people who submit that they better know what they are submitting and should have the rights to use the classification. I fear that a scene will ensue if I come into your auction and find meteorites being falsely sold there using my numbers. I have spoken privately today to several people and this is a problem which is about to explode. Freeloaders are too lazy or cheap to do their own work and are mooching off of those dealers and collectors who take the time and spend their hard-earned money to make all of the analyses. I will not stand by quietly while people are mooching off of my work, and selling an item using false pairing claims. This is extremely serious business. I have more money that you know invested in my work and my stones, and I will not allow people to try and lump their stuff under my numbers. How do you collectors feel? You are being had, being sold rocks with cards and the expectation that it is what they say it is, and now we see that isn't the case! Your stones may be worth far less than you realize if pairings are being made by looking at the outside of a stone! I think it is time to demand paperwork from your dealers, classification data on stones, showing that it is what they say, or is fully classified as a pairing. That is the only way we can stop this scam, is by forcing people to show documentation to prove it is what they claim it is. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Hi Mike, The issue I made is NOT who is right or wrong. If you were to post a very similar announcement, saying you had addressed this issue with ET and was told to take a long walk off a short pier and he didn't care what you thought about what he was doing and you think collectors should be aware this is going on - THAT WOULD BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT situation. Instead, you FIRST publicly chastise him. Whatever is going on - that is a poor start at ANY attempt for remedy, regardless of the circumstances involved. You don't know what is take on the situation is - you haven't even addressed the issue with him. MAYBE there is a good explanation - MAYBE there isn't. MAYBE he looked at it one way and will change his perspective once he hears what you have to say - MAYBE he won't we don't know, because YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT. There are a good many of us who will be far more interested in ANY issue you have with any other dealer IF you report civil attempts to resolve the issue on your part met with a lack of cooperation on their part. THEN I start wondering what is going on. Then I start listening to the content. However, when it is a one way mud throwing event, all I see is mud throwing - the content is unimportant to me if the process isn't clean. Other than that, thanks for a relatively civil response on your part. Sincerely, Michael on 11/16/04 3:10 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael, you seem to leave out the obvious, he is using numbers for meteorites sitting in my safe, I paid to have classified and worked. Michael, can you explain that, or does it not matter since he is your friend. This is very simple Michael, no genius needed here. I will make it simple though Guy A owns an item. Guy B starts selling the same item which is not possible since it is sitting guy A's safe. Who is the liar here? Guy A
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Hi List, I agree, this mooching, unauthorized number piggybacking and taking a free ride has got to stop. It takes a lot of work to catalog, prepare type specimens, manage names and promote official meteorites. The dealer who does the right thing might have to wait years for a classification and pay lab costs. Why should just anybody be able to piggyback for free immediately on a dealer who is doing the right thing? The NomCom rules have been made pretty clear so there is no longer any excuse for this unprofessional behavior. In my opinion, this is a public issue. It is pretty simple: If a dealer does not have paperwork proving he submitted a type sample and is not listed as the main mass holder, be cautious. If he is unable to demonstrate he acquired the material from somebody who put out the effort and is listed on the documents, be careful. If he cannot prove provenance, then more than likely what he is offering is not official. Unofficial pieces should not command the respect of specimens that have been studied. People who piggyback are undermining consumer confidence and the public should be made aware of this unsavory practice. Everybody should do his/her best to do the right thing, Adam - Original Message - From: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 5:06 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business > I'm with Mike Farmer on this. > > First, to lay out the issues without any name calling is NOT > mudslinging. > > Second, think of the following analogy. I rob a bank and get caught > red handed. Someone contacts me privately and offers me a chance to > return the money and my identity will never be revealed to the public. > Do you think the public's interest is served? > > If Mr. Thompson has a good explanation, I'm sure he will make it known > and each list member can make his own evaluation. > > Meantime I think this is a very serious business. I've invested many > thousands of dollars in my meteorite collection. How am I to know if > what I paid for is what I'm told it is? It is based on trust. If > various dealers are claiming to be selling material that they don't > have and maybe others are relying on "pairings" based on looks or an > opinion where does it end? This could be just the tip of the iceberg. > > For example, I bought a piece of Lueders, a Silicated Iron. To me it > looks a lot like a piece of silicated campo, What's the difference, > they're both IAB Irons? Well, one is worth 5-10 times as much as the > other. Once trust in the sellers of meteorites breaks down, it would > call into question the value of all the rare material in our > collections!! > > From what I've heard so far, I'm not likely to ever take my chances on > a dealer who does not adhere to nomcom rules. > And equally unlikely to purchase from persons who ridicule attempts to > keep the selling of meteorites from descending into an > bottomless pit of unverifiable pairings and unauthorized number > piggybacking. > > My 2 cents. > > Mike Fowler > Chicago > > -- > > Michael Blood wrote: > > The issue I made is NOT who is right or wrong. > If you were to post a very similar announcement, > saying you had addressed this issue with ET and was told to take a > long walk off a short pier and he didn't care what you thought > about what he was doing and you think collectors should be > aware this is going on - THAT WOULD BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT > situation. > Instead, you FIRST publicly chastise him. Whatever > is going on - that is a poor start at ANY attempt for remedy, > regardless of the circumstances involved. You don't know > what is take on the situation is - you haven't even addressed > the issue with him. MAYBE there is a good explanation - MAYBE > there isn't. MAYBE he looked at it one way and will change his > perspective once he hears what you have to say - MAYBE he > won't we don't know, because YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM > ABOUT IT. > There are a good many of us who will be far more > interested in ANY issue you have with any other dealer IF you > report civil attempts to resolve the issue on your part met > with a lack of cooperation on their part. > THEN I start wondering what is going on. Then I start > listening to the content. However, when it is a one way mud > throwing event, all I see is mud throwing - the content is > unimportant to me if the process isn't clean. > Other than that, thanks for a relatively civil response on > your part. > Sincerely, Michael > > - > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Mete
Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
Marcin, you don't seem to understand much about what I am trying to show. You see, for the last months, I have been to about 9 different countries, so very little time to cruise the internet. I didn't know you were selling that meteorite until someone told me today. Now, you didn't know that was my number? It doesn't matter who's number it is, what matters is that the number corresponds to a stone that was submitted for classification. ONLY that stone was thin sectioned and analyzed, so how could another stone from Morocco be the same? You are being scammed in Morocco if they start telling you what NWA # it is. I think I have a pretty good idea of who is doing that since only one guy in Morocco seems to do that and I have been there 33 times now. You fail to see the point. You are selling a stone, claiming it to be NWA 1906, but it is not. You have no data to back that up, not even any to suggest it is a Rumurutiite. People who bought it now have no idea what you sold them. That is the problem Marcin, I am not trying to fight with you or anyone, but this is a big problem, and you are selling on ebay and on your website to the public, so what purpose does keeping it private serve? Not to mention that when accusations are made in public such as the fact that stones are being sold under false names, then people demand proof, names etc. So why beat around the bush as we say here in the USA, let's get to the point and solve the problem. Now I see what you mean about Amgala. That is a little different. The falls, and other extremely identifiable meteorites can not be held to the same standard. Taza is obviously Taza, Bensour obviously Bensour. The problem with NWA is that boxes of different stones are being sold in bulk. That is what the Nomenclature Committee came up with the numbering scheme. It is clear that for a meteorite to be classified, a sample must be donated to the lab and worked on. For the NWA scheme to work, all specimens need to get analyzed and given a number. The system breaks down if people just start trying to lump new meteorites into already named specimens. We can all get through this, with everyone respecting the rules and if you want to play this meteorite game, going through the necessary hurdles to get your material properly classified and documented. I have to wait MONTHS Marcin, so does everyone else. If you are in a hurry and need to sell, I suggest you stick with named meteorites. We all have to take the time needed to do proper work, otherwise the meteorite business will turn into one large worthless flea-market Michael Farmer Original Message - From: "Meteoryt.net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business Hello list. I will try to answer to every questions that Mike is asking here. Anyone out there got any opinions on this? Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite. http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti. Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given this number: http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm Yes on photos they looks different. I newer see Your specimens in real, but also I never know that NWA1906 is "Your" number. But this WHY i named is as NWA1906 I will explain bottom. The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced. Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any way. Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even come close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules, multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there are clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at top, very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom, smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated. These meteorites are totally different. Yes, specimen on top I buy first, second specimen was purchased later, but both stones are THE SAME METEORITE. I not delete photos from sold slices from first specimen to SHOW that every slice, begin from endpiece have less " normall orange" matrix and more perfect chondrules matrix, and finally last slices have only perfect chondrules and no "orange" matrix. This is any kind of chondrite-rich inclusion, just a special specimen. I hope photos explain everything. I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this. I publicly answering , but I not understand why You doing this publicly. If I make a "crime" against "Your" numbers we should resolve this off-line, becouse this is case beetween us. From my side results of my answer will be the same as when this will be readed by 600 persons or only by you. What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that my stone received? What makes you think t
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
I want to comment to on the following statements made by Farmer; How do you collectors feel? You are being had, being sold rocks with cards and the expectation that it is what they say it is, and now we see that isn't the case! Your stones may be worth far less than you realize if pairings are being made by looking at the outside of a stone! I think that you have to look into each individual case. On the whole, I cannot believe that bona-fide experienced dealers are selling material without minimal testing and just piggybacking their authenticity on others' work. This is called plagiarism in certain settings and is a serious offense. However notwithstanding the economic factors of dealership, the scientific record is ill served by not doing at least minimal testing because it tends to muddy the record where a person buys a sample that may be lost from the record forever. Unclassifed samples and untested samples may be good candidates for a museum where the owner does not have the resources or inclination to devote to testing and contributing to the record. To Bill Mason who said the following about Meteorite Magazine. "Just a suggestion to consider; after all it is our most important meteorite news source. Get Real! S. Ray DeRusse and Bill Cutler www.bccmeteorites.com Mr. Farmer wrote; Michael Farmer wrote: Again Michael, first off he is selling publicly, so why should it not be discussed publicly? The damage has been done to me in public, so I see no need to try and hush this up. I know that Edwin and you are good friends, and that you depend on his stuff for sale and for your auctions, so I would suggest to you that when you have stuff listed for your upcoming Tucson auction, that you make a disclaimer that tells people who submit that they better know what they are submitting and should have the rights to use the classification. I fear that a scene will ensue if I come into your auction and find meteorites being falsely sold there using my numbers. I have spoken privately today to several people and this is a problem which is about to explode. Freeloaders are too lazy or cheap to do their own work and are mooching off of those dealers and collectors who take the time and spend their hard-earned money to make all of the analyses. I will not stand by quietly while people are mooching off of my work, and selling an item using false pairing claims. This is extremely serious business. I have more money that you know invested in my work and my stones, and I will not allow people to try and lump their stuff under my numbers. How do you collectors feel? You are being had, being sold rocks with cards and the expectation that it is what they say it is, and now we see that isn't the case! Your stones may be worth far less than you realize if pairings are being made by looking at the outside of a stone! I think it is time to demand paperwork from your dealers, classification data on stones, showing that it is what they say, or is fully classified as a pairing. That is the only way we can stop this scam, is by forcing people to show documentation to prove it is what they claim it is. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Hi Mike, The issue I made is NOT who is right or wrong. If you were to post a very similar announcement, saying you had addressed this issue with ET and was told to take a long walk off a short pier and he didn't care what you thought about what he was doing and you think collectors should be aware this is going on - THAT WOULD BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT situation. Instead, you FIRST publicly chastise him. Whatever is going on - that is a poor start at ANY attempt for remedy, regardless of the circumstances involved. You don't know what is take on the situation is - you haven't even addressed the issue with him. MAYBE there is a good explanation - MAYBE there isn't. MAYBE he looked at it one way and will change his perspective once he hears what you have to say - MAYBE he won't we don't know, because YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT. There are a good many of us who will be far more interested in ANY issue you have with any other dealer IF you report civil attempts to resolve the issue on your part met with a lack of cooperation on their part. THEN I start wondering what is going on. Then I start listening to the content. However, when it is a one way mud throwing event, all I see is mud throwing - the content is unimportant to me if the process isn't clean. Other than that, thanks for a relatively civil response on your part. Sincerely, Michael on 11/16/04 3:10 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael, you seem to leave out the obvious, he is using
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
on 11/16/04 5:06 PM, Michael Fowler at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > From what I've heard so far, I'm not likely to ever take my chances on > a dealer who does not adhere to nomcom rules. > And equally unlikely to purchase from persons who ridicule attempts to > keep the selling of meteorites from descending into an > bottomless pit of unverifiable pairings and unauthorized number > piggybacking. > My 2 cents. > Mike Fowler > Chicago -- Well, Mr. Fowler, I am strongly opposed to rape. However, I would be extremely critical of a crowd who, upon accusation of rape, a person were drug from his home, his hands cut off and hung to death in public without a trial - in fact, no opportunity to say anything at all - especially if I had known the person for over 15 years and he had ALWAYS behaved honorably. Yes, I would object to the process. I would want a trial. I would want the defendant to have representation. Perhaps you would perceive that as my being pro-rape? If anyone protests a lynching, they must be advocating for the crime for which the person is accused.Interesting perspective. Sincerely, Michael __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
Yes, I am very pleased with Marcin and Edwin and their responses. And yes, his piece is MUCH nicer looking than my NWA 1906, and it is different and it deserves to be classified and given a proper number. We all need to respect each-others work and time and money and not abuse this system. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:17 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business I think Marcin deserves our support for the honorable way he has responded to this problem. Mike Fowler Chicago PS The chondrules in the "not-NWA 1906" are georgeous!! -- Marcin of Polandmet wrote: At last: Comparing now Your photos with all specimens of NWA1906 I saw on fairs or internet and with all my specimens I must say that THIS IS NOT THE SAME MATERIAL. I make mistake. But I not do this with Bad intention. I not named my material as NWA1906 becouse this number was first I saw or becouse I wanted make anything against You Mike. I can say only "Im sorry Mike". I will right now stop selling this meteorite as NWA1906, and anyone who buy this meteorite from me and are unhappy, can return specimens with full refund. PS, Material that was sell by me as NWA1906 was also classified as NWA2289 R3-6. For compare NWA2289 R3-6 http://www.meteoriten.com/special.html For me its the same meteorite and now this cant be another mistake, but ofcourse I will not rename my rumuruti to another "good" number. -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
I don't think so Rob, falls and named meteorites are a different creature totally from the NWA flood. That amount of material, all being divided up in Morocco and sold to various people has caused this problem. The numbering system, while not perfect, is all we have. There is alot of paired material out there, but the danger lies in people lumping stones together without cutting them. Seeing individuals being sold of my NWA 2085 is a tragedy. How does one know it is paired with mine when uncut? It looks like any other chondrite on the outside, but when cut, it is a piece almost without rival, so to see uncut pieces being offered as the same thing irks me. I say show me, cut it, and lets compare, then call it the same. But back to the numbering system, it only works if people respect it, and don't start making bathroom pairings after digging through a box of rocks fresh from Morocco. I have been doing this for years, and let me tell you, just when I think something is paired with a piece I already have, more times than not when I cut it, I find a completely different rock. Michael Farmer. - Original Message - From: "Rob Wesel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business In all fairness, this "scam" and "mooching" has been the way of things for a couple hundred years now. Just because the Nom Com has imposed different naming rules on NWA meteorites does not mean that every Gao, every Murchison, every L'Aigle hasn't been sold by this mooching scam. It is not called theft in the non-NWA arena, it is called competition. Every dealer is in a glass house in this regard and blinding the real issue, a quick fix effort by the Nom Com versus really coming up with a viable mutual solution, is destructive to the dealers and collectors alike. Rob Wesel -- We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Again Michael, first off he is selling publicly, so why should it not be discussed publicly? The damage has been done to me in public, so I see no need to try and hush this up. I know that Edwin and you are good friends, and that you depend on his stuff for sale and for your auctions, so I would suggest to you that when you have stuff listed for your upcoming Tucson auction, that you make a disclaimer that tells people who submit that they better know what they are submitting and should have the rights to use the classification. I fear that a scene will ensue if I come into your auction and find meteorites being falsely sold there using my numbers. I have spoken privately today to several people and this is a problem which is about to explode. Freeloaders are too lazy or cheap to do their own work and are mooching off of those dealers and collectors who take the time and spend their hard-earned money to make all of the analyses. I will not stand by quietly while people are mooching off of my work, and selling an item using false pairing claims. This is extremely serious business. I have more money that you know invested in my work and my stones, and I will not allow people to try and lump their stuff under my numbers. How do you collectors feel? You are being had, being sold rocks with cards and the expectation that it is what they say it is, and now we see that isn't the case! Your stones may be worth far less than you realize if pairings are being made by looking at the outside of a stone! I think it is time to demand paperwork from your dealers, classification data on stones, showing that it is what they say, or is fully classified as a pairing. That is the only way we can stop this scam, is by forcing people to show documentation to prove it is what they claim it is. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Hi Mike, The issue I made is NOT who is right or wrong. If you were to post a very similar announcement, saying you had addressed this issue with ET and was told to take a long walk off a short pier and he didn't care what you thought about what he was doing and you think collectors should be aware this is going on - THAT WOULD BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT situation. Instead, you FIRST publicly chastise him. Whatever is going on - that is a poor start at ANY attempt for remedy, rega
AW: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
Basically, I would LOVE to get several stones I have classified... But in all the months on the list - no one ever answered the question WHERE. Those who have labs working on their pieces don't tell for good reason. :-) Bernhard -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Michael Farmer Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. November 2004 02:41 An: Michael Fowler; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Michael Fowler Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business Yes, I am very pleased with Marcin and Edwin and their responses. And yes, his piece is MUCH nicer looking than my NWA 1906, and it is different and it deserves to be classified and given a proper number. We all need to respect each-others work and time and money and not abuse this system. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:17 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business >I think Marcin deserves our support for the honorable way he has responded >to this problem. > > Mike Fowler > Chicago > > PS The chondrules in the "not-NWA 1906" are georgeous!! > > > -- > Marcin of Polandmet wrote: > > At last: > Comparing now Your photos with all specimens of NWA1906 I saw on fairs or > internet and with all my specimens I must say that THIS IS NOT THE SAME > MATERIAL. I make mistake. But I not do this with Bad intention. I not > named > my material as NWA1906 becouse this number was first I saw or becouse I > wanted make anything against You Mike. I can say only "Im sorry Mike". > > I will right now stop selling this meteorite as NWA1906, and anyone who > buy > this meteorite from me and are unhappy, can return specimens with full > refund. > > PS, Material that was sell by me as NWA1906 was also classified as NWA2289 > R3-6. > For compare NWA2289 R3-6 http://www.meteoriten.com/special.html > For me its the same meteorite and now this cant be another mistake, but > ofcourse I will not rename my rumuruti to another "good" number. > > > > -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Hi Michael (Blood), I don't think that I compared your plea to keep the dispute off list with ridiculing those who oppose unverified pairings and unauthorized number piggybacking. You didn't mean to do that did you? As far as cutting any ones hands off without a trial, this is a public forum, and I don't think that voicing our opinions about a serious issue is the same as a lynch mob especially when all sides have an opportunity to be heard if they so desire. I think Marcin's post was a good example of the benefit of this. Mike Fowler On Nov 16, 2004, at 7:42 PM, Michael L Blood wrote: And equally unlikely to purchase from persons who ridicule attempts to keep the selling of meteorites from descending into an bottomless pit of unverifiable pairings and unauthorized number piggybacking. My 2 cents. Mike Fowler Chicago -- Well, Mr. Fowler, I am strongly opposed to rape. However, I would be extremely critical of a crowd who, upon accusation of rape, a person were drug from his home, his hands cut off and hung to death in public without a trial - in fact, no opportunity to say anything at all - especially if I had known the person for over 15 years and he had ALWAYS behaved honorably. Yes, I would object to the process. I would want a trial. I would want the defendant to have representation. Perhaps you would perceive that as my being pro-rape? If anyone protests a lynching, they must be advocating for the crime for which the person is accused.Interesting perspective. Sincerely, Michael __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Mark, man that is the best written post I have seen in a while. My composition skills are more along the lines of President Bush, below par. Anyway, we all face a serious danger here, you look at eBay now and there are thousands of meteorite auctions on. Know you seller, and know your material, I suggest everyone new to this business, read everything they can get their hands on and look all over the internet. Knowledge is power. All of our collections could be damaged by this sort of thing. Zag looks like Kendrapara, Allende looks like Vigarano, Saint Severin is indistinguishable from Ensisheim, all are hundreds if not thousands of $$$ different in per gram value. Trust is all we have, lose it and you lose confidence in the hobby and many collectors who get burned will be gone at that first bad experience. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:06 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business I'm with Mike Farmer on this. First, to lay out the issues without any name calling is NOT mudslinging. Second, think of the following analogy. I rob a bank and get caught red handed. Someone contacts me privately and offers me a chance to return the money and my identity will never be revealed to the public. Do you think the public's interest is served? If Mr. Thompson has a good explanation, I'm sure he will make it known and each list member can make his own evaluation. Meantime I think this is a very serious business. I've invested many thousands of dollars in my meteorite collection. How am I to know if what I paid for is what I'm told it is? It is based on trust. If various dealers are claiming to be selling material that they don't have and maybe others are relying on "pairings" based on looks or an opinion where does it end? This could be just the tip of the iceberg. For example, I bought a piece of Lueders, a Silicated Iron. To me it looks a lot like a piece of silicated campo, What's the difference, they're both IAB Irons? Well, one is worth 5-10 times as much as the other. Once trust in the sellers of meteorites breaks down, it would call into question the value of all the rare material in our collections!! From what I've heard so far, I'm not likely to ever take my chances on a dealer who does not adhere to nomcom rules. And equally unlikely to purchase from persons who ridicule attempts to keep the selling of meteorites from descending into an bottomless pit of unverifiable pairings and unauthorized number piggybacking. My 2 cents. Mike Fowler Chicago -- Michael Blood wrote: The issue I made is NOT who is right or wrong. If you were to post a very similar announcement, saying you had addressed this issue with ET and was told to take a long walk off a short pier and he didn't care what you thought about what he was doing and you think collectors should be aware this is going on - THAT WOULD BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT situation. Instead, you FIRST publicly chastise him. Whatever is going on - that is a poor start at ANY attempt for remedy, regardless of the circumstances involved. You don't know what is take on the situation is - you haven't even addressed the issue with him. MAYBE there is a good explanation - MAYBE there isn't. MAYBE he looked at it one way and will change his perspective once he hears what you have to say - MAYBE he won't we don't know, because YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT. There are a good many of us who will be far more interested in ANY issue you have with any other dealer IF you report civil attempts to resolve the issue on your part met with a lack of cooperation on their part. THEN I start wondering what is going on. Then I start listening to the content. However, when it is a one way mud throwing event, all I see is mud throwing - the content is unimportant to me if the process isn't clean. Other than that, thanks for a relatively civil response on your part. Sincerely, Michael - __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] One cent ebay sale tomorrow, GREAT pieces.
I have another meteorite sale ending tomorrow, ALL items started at one cent! Some items of special note: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2285814583 Another heat-shield oriented Sikhote-alin. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2285823484 Gorgeous complete Juancheng stone, 44 grams. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2285827706 Very nice piece of DAG 476, bought from the finder. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2285821048 STUNNING piece of NWA 801, you have to see this piece to believe. over 50 more meteorites, ALL started at one cent. See all of the available items here at these two links. http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=meteorite-hunter http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=meteoritehunters Thanks Mike Farmer __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite?
Excellent Point Walter, Jerry - Original Message - From: "Walter Branch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:41 AM Subject: Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite? Hi Martin, Yes. That is why I think ALH84001 is the most important meteorite to date. Not because of the tangibles (the jury is still out) but because of the intangibles. ALH84001 made us all (meteorite enthusiasts or not) think of the origins of life and the definition of life, focused attention on rocks from space, focused attention on the planet Mars (and the upcoming Mars pathfinder mission) and heightened awareness of things outside this planet -Walter - - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jörn Koblitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Walter Branch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:48 AM Subject: Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Most important meteorite? Jörn kindly wrote: Most important meteorite: ALH 84001 or NWA 3133? I think it is difficult to say and is always biased by the personal preferences of the collector or scientist, but there is a fairly objective measure (at least for scientific importance): the number of publications on a specific meteorite. Hi Jörn and All, I struggled with this same question in my lastest column in Meteorite Magazine. I reviewed meteorite books counting the number of times particular meteorites were referenced in their historical or scientific context. My focus was on those meteorites that were instrumental in changing our collective understanding of meteorites. I narrowed the pool further based upon significant contributions compared to supporting contributions. Sure, the list of suspects could be longer, but I doubt it could be any shorter. As for ALH84001, I believe the most important contributions it has made are that ALH84001: 1) was the focus of a US Presidential p ress conference, 2) forced us to (yet again) adjust our collective understanding of evidence of life, and 3) definded a period of meteorite studies that involved widespread popular discussion that (my poetic license here) had not been seen since L'Aigle. I did not mention the particular specimens in the article here. Sorry about that, but that is what purchasing a subscription is all about Meteorite Magazine subscription info @: http://www.meteor.co.nz/ Cheers, Martin H __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Hi Mike and List This brings very good questions of authenticity. As a minor collector (meaning I only have a small collection and I'm new to this having been doing so a couple of years now), I do have to wonder about many of the stones I've aquired over the last 2-3 yrs. I've never doubted before what I bought except for once when I got a SA which refuses to etch (although this might just be an effect of remelting upon impact). I would hope the dealers whom I've bought from will consider this and reassure me that they are on the up and up and can vouch for what they sell with some form of proof. I do resell small pieces so that others can get what I've gotten, but now I see that I have no word other than what is presented to me and I sure don't have the equipment to even analyze these small fragments although I can examine thin sections on larger pieces which only tells me that I have a meteorite really and would make me cut a usually small sample and make it smaller. I would hope the world of meteorite dealers would be up front and open with what they present. Now, I can't speak for the sellers in North Africa because they only know that they have a product to sell and once they learn A sells for more than B, they will do what they've done for centuries and say B is A. This has been the way of life for the peoples of the Med for thousands of years. Makes no difference the product. So, I would prefer the major dealers to do the buying and classifying from the desert sellers and the leftovers, those common (looking) meteorites from North Africa, can then still be had for a common price which the sellers in N. Africa will establish and then the bartering begins for that price which will make both parties happy. Thats how a couple dealers do this I'm sure and they pass that on to us and clearly state they are unclassified and the implication is that they are most likely from one of the big strewn fields. Makes for great larger display pieces of complete individuals at prices I might even be able to afford one day! This has been an enlightening thread and one which I hope brings us all some benefit. Mark - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Mark, man that is the best written post I have seen in a while. My composition skills are more along the lines of President Bush, below par. Anyway, we all face a serious danger here, you look at eBay now and there are thousands of meteorite auctions on. Know you seller, and know your material, I suggest everyone new to this business, read everything they can get their hands on and look all over the internet. Knowledge is power. All of our collections could be damaged by this sort of thing. Zag looks like Kendrapara, Allende looks like Vigarano, Saint Severin is indistinguishable from Ensisheim, all are hundreds if not thousands of $$$ different in per gram value. Trust is all we have, lose it and you lose confidence in the hobby and many collectors who get burned will be gone at that first bad experience. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:06 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business I'm with Mike Farmer on this. First, to lay out the issues without any name calling is NOT mudslinging. Second, think of the following analogy. I rob a bank and get caught red handed. Someone contacts me privately and offers me a chance to return the money and my identity will never be revealed to the public. Do you think the public's interest is served? If Mr. Thompson has a good explanation, I'm sure he will make it known and each list member can make his own evaluation. Meantime I think this is a very serious business. I've invested many thousands of dollars in my meteorite collection. How am I to know if what I paid for is what I'm told it is? It is based on trust. If various dealers are claiming to be selling material that they don't have and maybe others are relying on "pairings" based on looks or an opinion where does it end? This could be just the tip of the iceberg. For example, I bought a piece of Lueders, a Silicated Iron. To me it looks a lot like a piece of silicated campo, What's the difference, they're both IAB Irons? Well, one is worth 5-10 times as much as the other. Once trust in the sellers of meteorites breaks down, it would call into question the value of all the rare material in our collections!! From what I've heard so far, I'm not likely to ever take my chances on a dealer who does not adhere to nomcom rules. And equally unlikely to purchase from persons who ridicule att
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Well, as far as the Sikhote goes, it doesnt etch because SA is a coarsest octahedrite, and the crystals can be inches across. so if you are trying to etch a small piece, forget it. You need a 3 or 4 inch slice to see any pattern at all. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "MarkF" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "meteor list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Hi Mike and List This brings very good questions of authenticity. As a minor collector (meaning I only have a small collection and I'm new to this having been doing so a couple of years now), I do have to wonder about many of the stones I've aquired over the last 2-3 yrs. I've never doubted before what I bought except for once when I got a SA which refuses to etch (although this might just be an effect of remelting upon impact). I would hope the dealers whom I've bought from will consider this and reassure me that they are on the up and up and can vouch for what they sell with some form of proof. I do resell small pieces so that others can get what I've gotten, but now I see that I have no word other than what is presented to me and I sure don't have the equipment to even analyze these small fragments although I can examine thin sections on larger pieces which only tells me that I have a meteorite really and would make me cut a usually small sample and make it smaller. I would hope the world of meteorite dealers would be up front and open with what they present. Now, I can't speak for the sellers in North Africa because they only know that they have a product to sell and once they learn A sells for more than B, they will do what they've done for centuries and say B is A. This has been the way of life for the peoples of the Med for thousands of years. Makes no difference the product. So, I would prefer the major dealers to do the buying and classifying from the desert sellers and the leftovers, those common (looking) meteorites from North Africa, can then still be had for a common price which the sellers in N. Africa will establish and then the bartering begins for that price which will make both parties happy. Thats how a couple dealers do this I'm sure and they pass that on to us and clearly state they are unclassified and the implication is that they are most likely from one of the big strewn fields. Makes for great larger display pieces of complete individuals at prices I might even be able to afford one day! This has been an enlightening thread and one which I hope brings us all some benefit. Mark - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business Mark, man that is the best written post I have seen in a while. My composition skills are more along the lines of President Bush, below par. Anyway, we all face a serious danger here, you look at eBay now and there are thousands of meteorite auctions on. Know you seller, and know your material, I suggest everyone new to this business, read everything they can get their hands on and look all over the internet. Knowledge is power. All of our collections could be damaged by this sort of thing. Zag looks like Kendrapara, Allende looks like Vigarano, Saint Severin is indistinguishable from Ensisheim, all are hundreds if not thousands of $$$ different in per gram value. Trust is all we have, lose it and you lose confidence in the hobby and many collectors who get burned will be gone at that first bad experience. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Michael Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:06 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business I'm with Mike Farmer on this. First, to lay out the issues without any name calling is NOT mudslinging. Second, think of the following analogy. I rob a bank and get caught red handed. Someone contacts me privately and offers me a chance to return the money and my identity will never be revealed to the public. Do you think the public's interest is served? If Mr. Thompson has a good explanation, I'm sure he will make it known and each list member can make his own evaluation. Meantime I think this is a very serious business. I've invested many thousands of dollars in my meteorite collection. How am I to know if what I paid for is what I'm told it is? It is based on trust. If various dealers are claiming to be selling material that they don't have and maybe others are relying on "pairings" based on looks or an opinion where does it end? This could be just the tip of the iceberg. For example, I bought a
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
Michael, Your responses have been reactionary and as crude as any I've seen. You can't polish a terd as in disguising your vested interests in a silver lining. You seem to think you can spout crap in an erudite way and it's ok. Save it for your students. Bill -- Original message -- From: Michael L Blood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > on 11/16/04 5:06 PM, Michael Fowler at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > From what I've heard so far, I'm not likely to ever take my chances on > > a dealer who does not adhere to nomcom rules. > > And equally unlikely to purchase from persons who ridicule attempts to > > keep the selling of meteorites from descending into an > > bottomless pit of unverifiable pairings and unauthorized number > > piggybacking. > > My 2 cents. > > Mike Fowler > > Chicago > -- > Well, > Mr. Fowler, I am strongly opposed to rape. However, I would be > extremely critical of a crowd who, upon accusation of rape, a person > were drug from his home, his hands cut off and hung to death in public > without a trial - in fact, no opportunity to say anything at all - > especially if I had known the person for over 15 years and he had ALWAYS > behaved honorably. > Yes, I would object to the process. I would want a trial. I would > want the defendant to have representation. > Perhaps you would perceive that as my being pro-rape? If anyone > protests a lynching, they must be advocating for the crime for which the > person is accused.Interesting perspective. > Sincerely, Michael > > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
> Meantime I think this is a very serious business. I've invested many > thousands of dollars in my meteorite collection. How am I to know if > what I paid for is what I'm told it is? It is based on trust. If > various dealers are claiming to be selling material that they don't > have and maybe others are relying on "pairings" based on looks or an > opinion where does it end? This could be just the tip of the iceberg. You can go and buy NWA1929 from oryginal mass for e.g. 40$/g or another Howardite for 80$/g or... 1kg specimen of NWA1929 from "paired" material for 4$/g from Morocco. What You will hose ? If for You is importand to have specimen from oryginal mass, Its Your good choice. For me is much more importand exact specimen/meteorite. Here is my opinion as a collector, not dealer. The best situation will be when one dealer will buy complete mass of exact meteorite. But in many cases its realy impossible so things like this will happend. > For example, I bought a piece of Lueders, a Silicated Iron. To me it > looks a lot like a piece of silicated campo, What's the difference, > they're both IAB Irons? Well, one is worth 5-10 times as much as the > other. Once trust in the sellers of meteorites breaks down, it would > call into question the value of all the rare material in our > collections!! I think that we talking here about Pairings of SAHARA material only. Offering NWA1929 from morocco source as NWA1929 is not the same as offering for example Gao as Pultusk. In first casse everyone know that this is paired material, but only one person have for this official papers, in other case its a crime. In first example You pay less for " most propably" the same material, in other You pay more for false or different material. -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- http://www.Meteoryt.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.PolandMET.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM +48(607)535 195 [ Member of: Polish Meteoritical Society ] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
Hello Mike, very sorry for the confusion. Apparently Rob Wesel showed you the large collection of specimens that I am selling and in the group there were these two specimens with your numbers on them. I bought the impact melt from Ali Hmani in Ste Marie Aux Mines, France this last June and he gave me this number saying that he had sold you your impact melt in Munich last year that you were selling slices of in Tucson. Sorry for stepping on your nomenclature toes. As for the R4, I really do have a piece with the number NWA 1906 on it, it is a substantial piece that I acquired from another dealer. Unfortunately, in the din of Denver tear down, I made a mistake and put it's label in with a whole flat of NWA 753 stones and put the NWA 753 label in with the one stone that I acquired with your NWA 1906 R4 classification on it. I regret having to admit making this mistake but hey, I am just a bag of flesh on a rack of bones and to err is human. ; Even though my initials are E.T. I am just a simple and slowly becoming senior, human. And hey, if anybody wants any, I have about 3 kilos of NWA 753 R chondrite (very nice small to medium sized individuals). And I have roughly 24 kilos of this wonderful impact melt breccia. I'll check with Ali to see if he has already gotten another NWA number from Dr. Ted Bunch and if not I'll send Ted a piece and get my own number for it. In the meantime, if anyone would like a nice loaf of bread sized and shaped individual of this IMB, I have one specimen that weighs 16 kilos. It's available for sale or trade. All you folks know that I love to trade! Sincerely and humbly, Edwin Thompson --reach me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Original message -- > Anyone out there got any opinions on this? > Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite. > http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm > This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti. > > Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given this > number: > http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm > > The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced. > Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any > way. > Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even come > close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules, > multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there are < BR>> clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at top, > very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom, > smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated. > These meteorites are totally different. > > I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this. > What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that my > stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you doing > this? > > Edwin Thompson is the one who is using a whole host of my numbers, I have > not spoken with him yet, but there is no justification for it other than > trying to pawn off unclassified meteorites as names pieces. > > This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market. > We are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do things > right. I would NEVER sell someone a me teorite that is not what it is claimed > to be. > But this is what these dealers are doing, making visual pairings to keep > from having to do their own work. > Buyer beware, it seems that the only way to get official material is to buy > from the dealer who made the official classification. > Michael Farmer > Awaiting a response from Polandmet and Edwin Thompson. > > http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
Edwin, thanks for the info, I tried to call you earlier but to no avail. This shows the larger extent of the problem. the Moroccans are trying to sell stuff, and are now using our data on new stones. See it from my point of view. I could lose alot of money this way. Whatever dealer you got the "NWA 1906" from is wrong. I have all but one slice of that here on my desk right now. So you see the dilemma. As far as the 2085, goes, again, what makes Ali think it is the same? He didn't know what it was when he sold it to me in Munich, so it seems he is hoping for more money from the next stone and called it the same as mine. Thanks for your understanding and it only helps us all to deal with this issue. I looked around the web today, and to see my NWA 1906 for sale on 3 different websites and on eBay is a little unsettling. Mike Farmer - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Farmer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business Hello Mike, very sorry for the confusion. Apparently Rob Wesel showed you the large collection of specimens that I am selling and in the group there were these two specimens with your numbers on them. I bought the impact melt from Ali Hmani in Ste Marie Aux Mines, France this last June and he gave me this number saying that he had sold you your impact melt in Munich last year that you were selling slices of in Tucson. Sorry for stepping on your nomenclature toes. As for the R4, I really do have a piece with the number NWA 1906 on it, it is a substantial piece that I acquired from another dealer. Unfortunately, in the din of Denver tear down, I made a mistake and put it's label in with a whole flat of NWA 753 stones and put the NWA 753 label in with the one stone that I acquired with your NWA 1906 R4 classification on it. I regret having to admit making this mistake but hey, I am just a bag of flesh on a rack of bones and to err is human. Even though my initials are E.T. I am just a simple and slowly becoming senior, human. And hey, if anybody wants any, I have about 3 kilos of NWA 753 R chondrite (very nice small to medium sized individuals). And I have roughly 24 kilos of this wonderful impact melt breccia. I'll check with Ali to see if he has already gotten another NWA number from Dr. Ted Bunch and if not I'll send Ted a piece and get my own number for it. In the meantime, if anyone would like a nice loaf of bread sized and shaped individual of this IMB, I have one specimen that weighs 16 kilos. It's available for sale or trade. All you folks know that I love to trade! Sincerely and humbly, Edwin Thompson --reach me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Original message -- > Anyone out there got any opinions on this? > Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite. > http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm > This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti. > > Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given this > number: > http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm > > The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced. > Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any > way. > Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even come > close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules, > multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there are > clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at top, > very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom, > smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated. > These meteorites are totally different. > > I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this. > What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that my > stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you doing > this? > > Edwin Thompson is the one who is using a whole host of my numbers, I have > not spoken with him yet, but there is no justification for it other than > trying to pawn off unclassified meteorites as names pieces. > > This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market. > We are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do things > right. I would NEVER sell someone a meteorite that is not what it is claimed > to be. > But this is what these dealers are doing, making visual pairings to keep > from having to do their own work. > Buyer beware, it seems that the only way to get official material is to buy > from the dealer who made the official classification. > Michael Farmer > Awaiting a
[meteorite-list] NWA nomenclature
Hello Mike, very sorry for the confusion. Apparently Rob Wesel showed you the large collection of specimens that I am selling and in the group there were these two specimens with your numbers on them. I bought the impact melt from Ali Hmani in Ste Marie Aux Mines, France this last June and he gave me this number saying that he had sold you your impact melt in Munich last year that you were selling slices of in Tucson. Sorry for stepping on your nomenclature toes. As for the R4, I really do have a piece with the number NWA 1906 on it, it is a substantial piece that I acquired from another dealer. Unfortunately, in the din of Denver tear down, I made a mistake and put it's label in with a whole flat of NWA 753 stones and put the NWA 753 label in with the one stone that I acquired with your NWA 1906 R4 classification on it. I regret having to admit making this mistake but hey, I am just a bag of flesh on a rack of bones and to err is human. ; Even though my initials are E.T. I am just a simple and slowly becoming senior, human. And hey, if anybody wants any, I have about 3 kilos of NWA 753 R chondrite (very nice small to medium sized individuals). And I have roughly 24 kilos of this wonderful impact melt breccia. I'll check with Ali to see if he has already gotten another NWA number from Dr. Ted Bunch and if not I'll send Ted a piece and get my own number for it. In the meantime, if anyone would like a nice loaf of bread sized and shaped individual of this IMB, I have one specimen that weighs 16 kilos. It's available for sale or trade. All you folks know that I love to trade! Sincerely and humbly, Edwin Thompson -- --reach me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fwd: FW: The Next Five Big NASA Failures (Editorial)
Note: forwarded message attached. --- Begin Message --- Title: FW: The Next Five Big NASA Failures (Editorial) For the part that is relevant to meteorites, Skip down to the 5th Failure - "Mars Sample Return": -Original Message- Subject: The Next Five Big NASA Failures (Editorial) http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-04zh.html The Next Five Big NASA Failures by Jeffrey F. Bell SpaceDaily November 15, 2004 Honolulu HI (SPX) - One of the most annoying things about NASA is that its dysfunctional management wastes a huge amount of effort on projects long after they are clearly doomed. By "effort" I don't mean just public money, but the time of lots of very intelligent people. People who are often intelligent enough to know that they are working on a lost cause. In my very first opinion column for SpaceDaily.com, I remarked that the Orbital Space Plane project was so stupid that many of the people working on it must have known that OSP was fundamentally misconceived, and doomed to be cancelled. Sure enough, it was soon cancelled, and later it turned out that many of the engineers, working for both NASA and the contractor teams, had shared my opinion, but kept quiet, and went on slaving away in their cubicles on calculations that they knew were pointless. I myself had a small taste of this Kafkaesque lifestyle in the 1980s, on a JPL mission called CRAF (Comet Rendezvous / Asteroid Flyby), which along with Cassini was the first of the projected "Mariner Mk. 2" mission family. These missions had been sold to Congress as a pair, as part of a strange policy that all NASA science missions should be grouped together in "AXAF Units", that cost about as much as that super-expensive X-ray astronomy mission. The idea was to minimize the number of separate items that would appear in the space science budget. This mission was doomed from the moment that a senior US Senator clamped down a rigid legal limit on the total cost of "CRAF/Cassini". It was pretty obvious that when the cost cap was exceeded, NASA management would cancel CRAF and keep Cassini. Cassini went to the most visually interesting place in the solar system; CRAF went to some nameless rocks and ice cubes. Cassini had a much larger international component and would cause more diplomatic complications if it were killed. And Cassini had a neat name, while CRAF was saddled with a bad acronym for its entire unhappy life. A smart friend of mine realized that the mission needed a sexy name and started an unofficial contest to select one. When this initiative was stifled by the JPL top management, everyone could see the handwriting on the wall. The last set of CRAF/Cassini publicity brochures sat undistributed for months in a big pile in a JPL hallway with a sign on top: "Do not take!" When the axe finally fell on CRAF, that whole pile of expensive full-color glossy coated-paper propaganda was pulped (except for a few I smuggled out of JPL in my briefcase). The saving grace of CRAF for me was that rank-and-file university scientists are supposed to be seen and not heard on NASA missions. At first I submitted unsolicited memos and reports about problems with the mission and possible ways to fix them. But my ideas vanished into the black hole of JPL without visible effect. All the science team members were expected to do was show up at three meetings per year. Finally a day came when I was scheduled to fly to Los Angeles for another long meeting at which nothing would be decided, and my subconscious mind revolted. That morning I walked past a fully packed suitcase standing by my front door, and went to my university office instead of the airport. When a puzzled colleague pointed out that my name was listed on the department travel schedule for that day and the next two, I had to sneak back home and pretend to have the flu. I had to pay for that unused plane ticket, but it was worth it just to have escaped those three days in the squirrel cage. With this experience, I can't even imagine what it is like to work full-time for months or years on a doomed project that is paying your rent and can't be evaded. And right now, NASA has a particularly large crop of hopeless projects that no one has the guts to cancel: ISS and Space Shuttle I've discussed some of the severe technical flaws in these programs. But the real problem is purely programmatic: The new Vision for Space Exploration calls for Shuttle to be retired in 2010 - several years before the new CEV spacecraft is ready to replace. This isn't an accident; the budget wedge for Shuttle operations is needed to fund the CEV once it leaves the viewgraph stage and starts actual hardware construction. There is no plan to handle NASA's share of the huge up-cargo and down-cargo demands of the finished ISS, except for a thin wedge labled "ISS transportation" in the famous VSE budget chart. There is no plan for a US cargo vehicle. There is no initiative to do away with t
[meteorite-list] Meteorite Article
Dear List, Here is an interesting article: MY WIFE AND I RECENTLY FOUND A STRANGE LOOKING ROCK. HOW CAN WE TELL IF IT'S A METEORITE? http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?SID=mail&articleID=000C478F-7A76-1C72-9EB7809EC588F2D7 © 1996-2004 Scientific American, Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
I agree with Mike and Adam on this one. I'm a new collector, and I certainly don't want to be sold something that isn't as advertised. I don't mind buying unclassified stuff, etc. but I want to be told (so I don't propagate any errors). I think it's an honest mistake on Marcin's part, but dealers need to be sure what they're selling, and believing a Moroccan doesn't cut it in my eyes. I think when you're sold something with a number, you need to inquire as to where it received that number. Maybe it's something they submitted or maybe it's something they traded from the person who got the number. If you got it from a hippie selling strange etching potions, you should probably get your own number or use none. Should the IMCA work on some kind of rules or guidelines for dealers to work from? I think that the dealers who put a lot of time and money into their material should push for this. It could make things easier for them in the long run. A solution may be slow in coming, but I think it's something that should be attempted sooner rather than later. As for the collectors, caveat emptor - know your buyer or just buy with little faith if you like what you see (and make sure you disclose those concerns when parting with that material). I don't mind buying admitted questionable material at a good price if it brings me some satisfaction. We all just need to do our part to keep things on the up and up. As for Mike bringing up the subject publicly before contacting the dealer, I think it's great if it saves me from making a bad purchase. Sure, I can get a refund, but it saves me time and hassle in the long run. In this instance, I think Mike did the right thing. Thanks! Wow, I agreed with Mike... ;-) Mark Bowling Vail, AZ - Original Message - From: "Meteoryt.net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I buy it from a well know Maroccan dealer AS NWA1906. Later in June I saw in > Ensisheim other persons selling THE SAME material as NWA1906 R4 and NWA2289 > R3-6. Comparing photos is not the same as comparing material in real, slice > to slice under loupe. So I was sure that I have NWA1906 and NWA2289. So I > start selling this without any BAD intention to anyone. Just another > meteorite, as other that I buy in Morocco. > > -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business
on 11/16/04 10:58 PM, minador at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I agree with Mike and Adam on this one. Hi Mark & all, SO DO I. I don't think ANYONE disagrees! I agree there must be consistent and absolutely clear identification of all material sold. I agree with all the issues brought up EXCEPT public chastisement of reputable dealers prior to personal contact for clarification. The only thing I ever disagreed with was public mud slinging prior to contact with the individuals involved. ET's post was certainly clear and understandable to me and assured me he was in no way attempting to pull a scam. I also KNOW him to be a dealer that stands behind his word 100% & for life. Mike even acknowledged ET's response as entirely satisfactory. My objection was the accusation of a scam being perpetrated by an honorable dealer. For this, I was accused of attempting to protect my self interest (of which I had none) and "polishing turds." I am flabbergasted. I really don't deal with that many dealers - Matt Morgan, Mike Farmer, Jim Strope, ET, the Hupes, Oscar & Eduardo, Eric Twelker - and a dozen others you would all recognize instantly - they ALL would rather die than sell something other than what they say it is. At least that has been my experience. Eric Olson sold me some of that Russian "pallasite" a couple of years ago - when I sent it back to him over a year later when it finally became clear it wasn't righteous, he sent me a full refund IMMEDIATELY. ANY dealer that does NOT guarantee EVERYTHING he sells to be what he claims it to be with a 100% refund FOR LIFE is, in my opinion, not someone anyone should do business with. AND NONE OF THIS MAKES IT OK TO ATTACK REPUTABLE INDIVIDUALS PUBLICLY WITHOUT ADDRESSING THEM PERSONALLY FIRST. I won't say any more on the issue. That's it - If y'all don't get the point - I give up. OK, you don't get the point. Best wishes, Michael __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
