[meteorite-list] NWA 4925 Martian
Hi Folks, Well, Mr Postman has just called and delivered unto me my fantastic 1.234g absolutely perfectly prepared slice of NWA 4925, the new Shergottite from Martin and Stefan. I don't, if ever, rave about my new additions to my collection but this has to be bigged up as we say in our 'hood (sorry something's must have come over meexcitement I think!) This is a most beautiful meteorite indeed - apart from the fact that it is the largest of any of the Martians or Lunars in my collection, a veritable paving slab indeed, the colourings within this rock is a sight to behold! As much as I love Zagami, it is relatively featureless to look at, but this new NWA is a kaleidoscope! Polished to perfection, this will take pride of place in my collection. I really can only start to appreciate the efforts required by ALL of you meteorite finders and the fact that due to your efforts, li'l ol' me can actually have a piece of the planet Mars in my lounge! It can sometimes take a piece of rock like this to make one stand back and TRULY appreciate what it ACTUALLY is...I can physically hold a piece of rock from another World. I know I am stating the obvious, but I am a little over excited! No matter how long I have been collecting space rocks, sometimes it takes a piece of this rarity to know that it is a tribute to all of you hard working folks who find this material, analyse it, learn from it and that I can have the privelege of owning a piece of Mars, for real! Yep, I'm raving I know that but dammit! I'm really excited! I look forward to doing school talks and wielding this piece and talking them through it. So, if you do not have any of this particular NWA - then get onto Martin Altmann or Stefan Ralew NOW and buy some! Look at the prices! Would you have ever believed that one could get a Martian specimen for less than $1000 per gram?!! Martin Stefan - I truly truly appreciate the specimen more than you will ever know. I am blown away. I am going to sign off now - I need a lie-down with my Martian! Best regards, Dave IMCA #0092 Sec. BIMS www.bimsociety.org __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on, Where you still today will find the old estimations of Nininger, Krinov and so on - although really everyone knows, that many tons more were recovered. But also with modern falls - just take Chiang Khan, which we recently had here - the Catalogue is unnecessarily improper. I mean it's no secret that the geological survey of Thailand immediately found a few days after the fall a big chunk, which is in the university of Bangkok - but the MetSoc didn't noticed it, additionally the Catalogue lists a larger piece at UCLA and finally Oliver Alge's finds - he spent all in all a whole year in the strewnfield, receiving specimens from the locals, digging up a few by himself - had hundreds of interviews with eyewitnesses, compared the stones with others from collections and institutes - so he did by far more than any scientist - but his finds never will find their way into the tkw, as he has no degree in geology or mineralogy hanging on the wall, so he can't make an scientific publication - but as Jeff told, MetSoc doesn't accept anything else than that as evidence. Or take Kainsaz. Now we know all, that the Russian hunters found still quite some amounts until 1999. We know it, but the collectors in hundred years from now? And again, we're talking about falls from 100 or 200 years ago, when such a system of survey wasn't established - tracking back a specimen is fine, but we don't know with most falls the initial point. We don't know how many stones felt, how many the locals took home, how many greedy dealers acquired like today and sold to private collectors and ended up in institutes. Well and then to expect from dealers, that they should track back each specimen they sold in a manner, which neither the museums, nor the MetSoc was and is able to do - is certainly a little bit much. Let's ask Zelimir, how much time he spent for his collection of the whereabouts of Ensisheim specimens and then let's ask the professional dealers how much working time they spend already now, to supply the collectors and institutes with always new old and new meteorites. And on the other hand it would be a matter of price. Theoretically, only theoretically, a dealer could let throw each historical specimen into a microprobe and could do the same with a specimen in a famous museums collection and could compare the values, to improve the authenticity, but whether the collector would pay then the costs, if a 100 or 200$ piece would cost then 1000$, I doubt. The dealers have to rate the provenience and to compare with other specimens, they have a lot to loose. Buying meteorites is to a certain degree a matter of trust,
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Martin, I understand your points, and I am not tracking back meteorites in the hope of getting something for nothing. I am doing by best to track back specimens that are selling for hundreds of dollars per gram, and I am making my best effort to ensure that I don't get burned. Let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only one email for me to find out that the information that I was given about where a dealer had obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect. That information came from another dealer with an excellent reputation. Regarding other samples, I have contacted dealers who had no idea where they obtained the specimens from - not even the names of the other dealers, never mind museums. Bottom line - based on what I confirm or don't confirm, then I can decide whether I want to make the purchase of a rare specimen. It's just being an educated consumer. And the dealer with the good names who worked hard for those names are usually the ones that are the most happy to answer all the questions, and in most cases, have some sort of records. That's one of the reasons why they are good dealers in my opinion. For me, tracking back samples is also fun. Sometimes it leads to a dead end, but sometimes it leads to fantastic information about who donated the sample you just purchased to a museum. Some collectors are interested in this; others not. What is the minimum amount of information that a dealer should have in my opinion? At the very least, he or she should have some receipt or record of where he or she obtained the sample (that is, at a minimum, a record of the last transaction). I don't think this is expecting too much. And what you say is true. When buying from dealers with good reputations, it's likely not much tracking is necessary to obtain a comfort feeling about the sample. However, with certain dealers, or unknown dealers, it's important to track and confirm some information to decide whether to purchase the specimen or not. And unfortunately, with some dealers and very rare specimens, checks with museums are certainly not out of the picture. And meteorite collecting is very similar to autograph collecting where each letter is unique. And establishing the authenticity and provenance is always important. I'm talking about collecting letters of about 100 to over 200 years old of famous scientists, and those letters can sell for several hundred to several thousands of dollars. And in the autograph field, attempts to track back letters, and asking questions dealers about provenance are considered part of the norm. There are also good dealers you can trust - again, the ones that usually supply the most information. And there are other dealers where you have to be careful. But no one takes any real issue with questions and attempts to track back a letter. And it really should be no different for meteorite collecting. So to repeat again - let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only one email for me to find out that the information that I was given about where a dealer had obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect. Just my two cents! Mark Grossman - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin A. wrote: Point 1: And on the other hand it would be a matter of price. Theoretically, only theoretically, a dealer could let throw each historical specimen into a microprobe and could do the same with a specimen in a famous museums collection and could compare the values, to improve the authenticity, but whether the collector would pay then the costs, if a 100 or 200$ piece would cost then 1000$, I doubt. Point 2: The dealers have to rate the provenience and to compare with other specimens, they have a lot to loose. Buying meteorites is to a certain degree a matter of trust, from the side of the collectors. From side of the dealer it is a matter of his reputation. Point 3: If this isn't sufficient for a collector, then he simply shouldn't buy any historic specimens, then he should collect desert meteorites, where the provenance is of less than secondary importance and the value is determined solely by the material itself. Hello Martin, The above three points express the essence of this issue as well as demonstrate the potential for an exponential evolution of the problem. So let's carry the implications of your points forward one more step: Point 1: if you overtly tie price to provenience, an instantaneous dilution of the trust between buyer and seller will occur now and throughout the future. Imagine the choice between two 25g slices of Ensisheim. One at $250 and one at $5000. They look similar, and once purchased, can be claimed to be Ensisheim by the owner. The next sale or trade of the specimen carries the weight of Ensisheim because those involved have chosen to believe it is Ensisheim regardless of its past. While this problem is alive and well with smaller pieces, once the gram size (of this locality anyway) exceeds 10g, the specimen has increased its importance as a representative of Point 2: Overtly Tying provenience to dealer is even worse. I believe this very discussion is addressing this very question, and while there will always be a large factor in the equation for dealer reputation, if the meteorite dealing landscape becomes as wild as used car lots, then much of the novice and intermediate collecting market will be wiped out. Yes, I know there is degree of this anyway, but imagine Dealer Bob's Used Meteorites, buyer beware and a 10-day warranty on provenience. Compare that to Bob The Meteorite Man's specimens that come with stories, pictures, and a lifetime warranty on authenticity. Point 3: Interesting idea. One or two more logical steps and local rocks would make good collecting objects. Followed by concrete, asphalt, and charcoal briquettes since many hot desert specimens still require a considerable degree of trust of both science and seller. The point of all of this is that there is a growing and documented situation where the authenticity of rare material is in doubt. And there are very few collectors who have experience with the material in question, and I believe it is important for those very collectors to be involved in this conversation. Cheers, Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin All, This is a very important issue, and hopefully it will be picked up by IMCA or some other organization willing to take it to some level (or levels) of objectivity. The litany of points along the slippery slope of tracking provenance make this a somewhat complicated issue, but complicated does not equal impossible. It is absolutely absurd for offers such as the top two below to be made over eBay with zero evidence to support provenance and an apparent lack of response to requests for the same. M. Altmann also contributed some excellent points. IMCA BOD, are you ready to roll? Much more important than the question of an orientation rating system, this is a great opportunity for you to establish some kind of framework around which to blow the whistle with credibility when something stinks like left out fish... Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dark Matter Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:32 PM To: Mike Bandli Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Mike and all, I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving statement that This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are the auction links. http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_ W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971 1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some pictures: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by its low selling price. Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an Nininger quote to back up its provenience. Other thoughts? Martin On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full refund and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk - deazombie Duh ! Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability to spell correctly and use proper grammar. BE __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
One thing which I think the IMCA could do to give a lead here is some kind of new collectors' guide. I joined about a year ago, not long after I started collecting, as I correctly worked out that I'd want to trade on some of my specimens at some point, and wanted to do as much as possible to 'get it right'. I think more by luck than judgement, my records meet the 'minimum level' Mark G talks about - I log source and month of purchase, I keep all CoAs, I also keep a photo of each specimen - taken from the eBay sale, dealer's web site, wherever I've obtained it from. Despite this I know there are a couple of mistakes for some of my earliest entries. It may seem obvious to those who've been in the game for a while, but I had to figure this out for myself - I didn't find any advice on record-keeping. If I hadn't taken these steps from day one then my collection would be substantially less valuable, but more to the point the whole chain of provenance would have been broken while the material was under my stewardship. I think we all have a part to play when it comes to authenticity; some kind of summary from IMCA to new members could go a little way to addressing these points. As ever, just my 2p worth... Dave Gheesling wrote: IMCA BOD, are you ready to roll? Much more important than the question of an orientation rating system, this is a great opportunity for you to establish some kind of framework around which to blow the whistle with credibility when something stinks like left out fish... Dave -- Mark's Meteorite Pages: http://meteorites.cc __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Dear Mark, dear Dave, and All, Actually, we (the IMCA Board of Directors) have been watching these auctions, and discussing all sorts of implications during the last few weeks. However, we can't do much if the seller is no IMCA member. If it was an IMCA member we would have taken immediate action - be assured of that. So, what do we learn: buy from IMCA members or from established dealers who are willing to answer all your questions regarding the provenance of their samples. If the seller refuses to answer your legit questions, or doesn't listen to your concerns, just don't buy. And, as Mark suggested, please keep as many records of your purchases as possible, and don't be afraid of asking questions. We might come up with something better, and kind of a collector's guide in the future (thanks for bringing that up in the first place), but - as I wrote above - we're still discussing all of the implications and facetts of this complicated issue. If you have suggestions, and ideas, we're more than willing to listen to you, and we are all watching this discussion with great interest. All the best, Norbert Classen President IMCA Inc. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- One thing which I think the IMCA could do to give a lead here is some kind of new collectors' guide. I joined about a year ago, not long after I started collecting, as I correctly worked out that I'd want to trade on some of my specimens at some point, and wanted to do as much as possible to 'get it right'. I think more by luck than judgement, my records meet the 'minimum level' Mark G talks about - I log source and month of purchase, I keep all CoAs, I also keep a photo of each specimen - taken from the eBay sale, dealer's web site, wherever I've obtained it from. Despite this I know there are a couple of mistakes for some of my earliest entries. It may seem obvious to those who've been in the game for a while, but I had to figure this out for myself - I didn't find any advice on record-keeping. If I hadn't taken these steps from day one then my collection would be substantially less valuable, but more to the point the whole chain of provenance would have been broken while the material was under my stewardship. I think we all have a part to play when it comes to authenticity; some kind of summary from IMCA to new members could go a little way to addressing these points. As ever, just my 2p worth... Dave Gheesling wrote: IMCA BOD, are you ready to roll? Much more important than the question of an orientation rating system, this is a great opportunity for you to establish some kind of framework around which to blow the whistle with credibility when something stinks like left out fish... Dave -- Mark's Meteorite Pages: http://meteorites.cc __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi again, no of course, I didn't meant that this way. Tracking back specimens, to find out through whose hands and collecions they travelled, is a fascinating detective work and the very sample will gain the more information about one can find out. I only wanted to make the point, that e.g. a label of a museum or of a famous collector is per se not a proof whether a specimen is that, what is written on the very label or not to a greater extend, as if the label would have be painted by a good dealer - and that the tkws given in the official records don't exclude the possibility of the existence of further pieces of the very fall. What I see some more critically is the distrust a few collectors have and the fear - as mentioned - to be burnt. I think, colleting meteorites is one of the safest field of collecting of all. Meteorites are a so extremely rare collectibles, that you have only two handful of dealers and also a very limited number of specialized collectors, who are selling. Almost everyone knows everyone in meteoritics. Especially those dealers, who constantly and frequently offer rarest historic falls and finds are always the same. For many years. And on the other hand, many collectors own samples of historic material to compare, not so few have even a scientific background and access to analysing devices. As told, crucial for dealing with meteorites is the mutual trust and the reputation. Do you really think, that a professional dealer would risk to destroy this relation to his collectors and the reputation in the scene, in trying to burn the clients in selling a cheap meteorite as a similar looking historic fall? The risk that it will be revealed is high. Who would buy from him in future? And would his most important customers, spending their money for remarkable specimens of superrare historic finds and falls, still buy then from him? He would be ruined. Additionally the collector has another safety through IMCA, which will take action, if such a case happens and the seller is a member of IMCA. And thirdly - in which field of collection, do you have an independent, non-commercial institution, which is not interested in the field of private collecting at all, but which despite is trying to document and to approve everything and all objects of that field of collecting, as it does the MetSoc? Take the art market. There if someone had studied something in that direction, he has to pass an exam, and then he's allowed to call himself a certified and authorized expert and then he's writing his certificates for the paintings - and then it's authentic. If he's not experienced enough, if he had a bad day, if he simply made an error - bad luck for the buyer. But how are the meteorites produced today, which will be the historical ones of tomorrow? The dealers go to Morocco, there in their very own interest, they have to tell the meteorites apart from terrestrials, as else they would loose their investment and likewise the hunters, who spend a lot of funds for their expeditions - these people are true experts for meteorites, but that's not enough - no they have to hand their finds in to a few recognized labs, where the crème de la crème of meteorite scientists of the world put them through their paces and at the end it still has to pass the central institution of approval and then it's a meteorite (and a collectible). I don't know, but I don't know any field of collecting, where everything is so strictly handled like with meteorites. And what I meant with ebay and not so reliable sellers, is, that if my appendix soon would explode I wouldn't necessarily go to a barber, but rather would consult a surgeon. That specimens should have a standardized passport, and also the dividing and subdividing should be documented in this way, was suggested several times here. Well, one could introduce that, but then, you all have to buy first more meteorites, that the dealers could afford to employ a secretary... Well and in principle (today I write this word to often) you're facing that problem also in selling meteorites to non-specialized collectors. You often here: How can you prove, that this piece is a real meteorite and that it is a sample from that find or fall. One can. Take the 10$ Sikhote-Alin individual, or the 5$ Nantan crumb, cut off a piece, go to a lab with a microprobe and let measure the Ni, Ga, Ge, Ir, Au values - pay 1000$+, which it costs to run the microprobe. Then you have probably the 100% safety - but if the people would pay 1010$ instead of 10$...I really don't know. Another point would be the sharks, Rob talked about Go in a shop, ask there, where they got their goods they are selling from, as you expect that the meteorite dealers should do, well, I guess, a few would be tempted to try to buy from the supplier of the shop then... Thoughts, are only thoughts... Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Mark
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on, Where you still today will find the old estimations of Nininger, Krinov and so on - although really everyone knows, that many tons more were recovered. But also with modern falls - just take Chiang Khan, which we recently had here - the Catalogue is unnecessarily improper. I mean it's no secret that the geological survey of Thailand immediately found a few days after the fall a big chunk, which is in the university of Bangkok - but the MetSoc didn't noticed it, additionally the Catalogue lists a larger piece at UCLA and
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
The offerings in question all revolve around a single dealer - Bob Evans. It's no secret that his ethics have come under scrutiny recently (and in the past). I know there are members of our community investigating some of his past and recent offerings and I sincerely hope they present their data to us when finished. I don't own or know enough about Bailystok or Andover to comment on them, but when another collector and I checked the provenance behind Bob's 'Zulu Queen,' we discovered that it was not true. It is now unclear if it is really Zulu Queen, as I have been unable to extract any more data from him. There are others out there reading these threads that may be hesitant to post. I would encourage you to be a part of this discussion. It is these very issues that can potentially hurt our collections and hobby. Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: Dark Matter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 8:32 PM To: Mike Bandli Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Mike and all, I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving statement that This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are the auction links. http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_ W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971 1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some pictures: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by its low selling price. Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an Nininger quote to back up its provenience. Other thoughts? Martin On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full refund and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk - deazombie Duh ! Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability to spell correctly and use proper grammar. BE __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi, Norbert ( All), I realize that IMCA is doing this now as it relates to members within the group, and this is a wonderful start. My sense is that you, as a Board of Directors, could perhaps take some of the discussion which has unfolded here and develop a deeper and more objective approach to establishing certain standards which wouldn't be so dependent upon glittering generalities such as a dealer's reputation (outside of IMCA, could a high eBay feedback rating be perceived to be a good reputation, for example?), the willingness to accept returns and the like. To suggest only one possible idea out of countless, while it might be expensive to have a specimen formally registered with IMCA, I also imagine it could well add to the value of the specimen itself (and, therefore, that in at least some cases to start there would be a market for this if the market's perception of increased value in the specimen was higher than the cost of acquiring such a registration). Individuals which have been well cataloged in recent falls (Svend Buhl's terrific catalog of the Bassikounou fall comes to mind) would easily be logged into such a system, and in the event specimens were cut it would also be possible (at least at the outset) to track slices which came from certain parent individuals, etc. Anyway, the point is that the IMCA is currently in a unique position to put some teeth into the matter, and this dialogue has been a great start. Even if a seller is outside of IMCA (which I presume most if not all shady sellers would be, by design), these standards might prove to be applicable in legal disputes, etc, going forward... All best, and thanks for your service via IMCA, Dave -Original Message- From: Norbert Classen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:35 PM To: 'Mark Crawford'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Dear Mark, dear Dave, and All, Actually, we (the IMCA Board of Directors) have been watching these auctions, and discussing all sorts of implications during the last few weeks. However, we can't do much if the seller is no IMCA member. If it was an IMCA member we would have taken immediate action - be assured of that. So, what do we learn: buy from IMCA members or from established dealers who are willing to answer all your questions regarding the provenance of their samples. If the seller refuses to answer your legit questions, or doesn't listen to your concerns, just don't buy. And, as Mark suggested, please keep as many records of your purchases as possible, and don't be afraid of asking questions. We might come up with something better, and kind of a collector's guide in the future (thanks for bringing that up in the first place), but - as I wrote above - we're still discussing all of the implications and facetts of this complicated issue. If you have suggestions, and ideas, we're more than willing to listen to you, and we are all watching this discussion with great interest. All the best, Norbert Classen President IMCA Inc. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- One thing which I think the IMCA could do to give a lead here is some kind of new collectors' guide. I joined about a year ago, not long after I started collecting, as I correctly worked out that I'd want to trade on some of my specimens at some point, and wanted to do as much as possible to 'get it right'. I think more by luck than judgement, my records meet the 'minimum level' Mark G talks about - I log source and month of purchase, I keep all CoAs, I also keep a photo of each specimen - taken from the eBay sale, dealer's web site, wherever I've obtained it from. Despite this I know there are a couple of mistakes for some of my earliest entries. It may seem obvious to those who've been in the game for a while, but I had to figure this out for myself - I didn't find any advice on record-keeping. If I hadn't taken these steps from day one then my collection would be substantially less valuable, but more to the point the whole chain of provenance would have been broken while the material was under my stewardship. I think we all have a part to play when it comes to authenticity; some kind of summary from IMCA to new members could go a little way to addressing these points. As ever, just my 2p worth... Dave Gheesling wrote: IMCA BOD, are you ready to roll? Much more important than the question of an orientation rating system, this is a great opportunity for you to establish some kind of framework around which to blow the whistle with credibility when something stinks like left out fish... Dave -- Mark's Meteorite Pages: http://meteorites.cc __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
I know Jay, but I can't explicitly write names here, I'm a dealer and some could misunderstand it and think, that I would pursue a certain intention. So I rather write about barbers and surgeons... In fact one could express it also less complicate with the simple, but nevertheless true words of my uncle Alex Seidel: Know your dealer. :-) Martin PS: And if you don't know any dealers yet, buy strictly IMCA. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Wendy Piatek Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 18:40 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Martin Altmann Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Other thoughts? Hi Martin, Here are my thoughts and opinion. This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! The word or bothers me. It's a hedge. This statement should NEVER appear on a meteorite sale listing, be it auction, retail or whatever. Either it is a meteorite, or it isn't and if the seller isn't sure, the seller should say so. Think about it. It is certainly acceptable to offer a refund for various reasons, but it is not acceptable to offer a refund because the meteorite you are selling is not really a meteorite, or the meteorite which claim it to be. How much sense does that make? None! IMHO, anyone who buys a meteorite under those circumstances is asking for trouble. Either it is a meteorite or it is not and if you are not 100% sure it is what you claim it is, then you don't need to be presenting it as such and selling it as such. I am astounded anyone would buy a meteorite with that disclaimer. I am just now beginning to build back up my collection. Only reputable dealers and sources will get my money and I certainly won't be spending money on auctions or retailers where I have to prove authenticity to get a refund. The onus is not on the buyer to prove it is a meteorite, it is on the seller. BTW, Martin, nice to see you writing on the list again. How is Big Sky Country? -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: Dark Matter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Mike and all, I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving statement that This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are the auction links. http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ250229711253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some pictures: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by its low selling price. Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an Nininger quote to back up its provenience. Other thoughts? Martin On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Jay All, While I have not been directly affected by what you've mentioned below -- at least as far as I know...IF this has been happening, how the hell can anyone know with certainty how deep the iceberg runs?! -- I'm fully in support of either helping the IMCA tackle this with more substance or establishing a group of collectors who have enough at stake in this arena to take it on separately. The integrity (dual meaning) of this field is absolutely, positively priority #1. I hope you get many more responses from others who have more experience and expertise than do I... Sincerely, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wendy Piatek Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:40 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Martin Altmann Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Norbert and all, I fully understand and appreciate the IMCA dilemma. However, the scope of the specimens in question has now moved into both into the collections of IMCA members and IMCA dealers. Therefore, I believe this is now a serious IMCA issue since we have a digital paper trail. Cheers, Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Ditto. -Original Message- From: Dark Matter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Mark Crawford; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Norbert and all, I fully understand and appreciate the IMCA dilemma. However, the scope of the specimens in question has now moved into both into the collections of IMCA members and IMCA dealers. Therefore, I believe this is now a serious IMCA issue since we have a digital paper trail. Cheers, Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Martin, and All, Yes, we are aware of that - and that's our major concern. We've also been doing some independent research on the specimens/meteorites in question, and if you would like to add to our database, please contact us on or off list. Kind Regards, Norbert -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Hi Norbert and all, I fully understand and appreciate the IMCA dilemma. However, the scope of the specimens in question has now moved into both into the collections of IMCA members and IMCA dealers. Therefore, I believe this is now a serious IMCA issue since we have a digital paper trail. Cheers, Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Jay and all, I am not sure where this all started or where it will end but I think Jay has brought up a slightly different issue here. Let me say up front I do not know about Zulu Queen or any of these other rare meteorite in question. I do know how I feel about knowingly allowing a person of VERY questionable character to be a part of our community. It is almost like we are taking part in the charade if we knowing allow a shady Charterer to be part of this list. Now I am not speaking of any person in particular, because I have no personal knowledge of any of the dealings in question here. I am simply responding to the whole idea if there is such a person amongst us, the very least we can do is ban them from the list and I hope we can take much more aggressive action to either slow down the shady deals or end them if that is possible. On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Wendy Piatek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Greetings List Members, On June 24th 2004 there were some claims made against the person in question. Apparently there was a lawsuit against this seller. I have stayed clear of him ever since, though I never dealt with him. I suggest people look up the archives and do their own reading and decide for themselves. It may be the issue was resolved but I guess my feeling is how it got to that point in the first place. Best! --AL Mitterling Wendy Piatek wrote: Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on, Where you still today will find the
[meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit
Yes, there was a lawsuit against Bob Evans brought by me. It was in regards to a trade that was partially done, where I sent material and only received a partial trade, then Evans went quiet. No contact for many months. Eventually, I posted about it and received many replies that he has done this before. His modus operandi is usually to go quiet and not communicate. Which is what he's doing now. He did not show in court, I received a default judgment by the judge. Evans did not appeal and a judgment was issued. I spent the money to have the judgment filed in Illinois and a lien filed against his house. At this time he can not purchase or sell, or inherit real property until the judgment is paid. It is collecting 8% interest at this time. If I recall my contract law correctly, selling NWA junk as Zulu Queen would be 'Misrepresentation' as well as Unjust Enrichment. Selling Zulu Queen that he didn't know was NWA junk is simply 'Mutual Misunderstanding'. Good luck in proving he had prior knowledge it was NWA junk. This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. -mt Original Message From: AL Mitterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:36 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Greetings List Members, On June 24th 2004 there were some claims made against the person in question. Apparently there was a lawsuit against this seller. I have stayed clear of him ever since, though I never dealt with him. I suggest people look up the archives and do their own reading and decide for themselves. It may be the issue was resolved but I guess my feeling is how it got to that point in the first place. Best! --AL Mitterling __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hello All, Norbert wrote:[Yes, we are aware of that - and that's our major concern. We've also been doing some independent research on the specimens/meteorites in question, and if you would like to add to our database, please contact us on or off list.] Just be sure if it is still related to all the posts to keep it public and not start off list debates. Some of us like to hear the end of the story. Thank you! Dave, even if a seller is outside of IMCA does not imply he/she is a shady seller. Just write to the list and ask about this person. Some very successful dealers are not members of the IMCA. It would be wonderful if the IMCA will take a stand of getting misrepresentations cleared up though. And I do believe this is already happening like Norbert mentioned. But then again would we have heard of it if it wasn't for Mike Bandli asking questions? It is good information if this problem is made aware to all of us and not kept it secret between some members. And last if someone does have been mislead and the person is not a member of the met-list or the IMCA, I still hope the info would be listed on the sites, so we will all be aware of the dealings. With best regards, Moni _ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit
This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. Well said, McCartney. -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit Yes, there was a lawsuit against Bob Evans brought by me. It was in regards to a trade that was partially done, where I sent material and only received a partial trade, then Evans went quiet. No contact for many months. Eventually, I posted about it and received many replies that he has done this before. His modus operandi is usually to go quiet and not communicate. Which is what he's doing now. He did not show in court, I received a default judgment by the judge. Evans did not appeal and a judgment was issued. I spent the money to have the judgment filed in Illinois and a lien filed against his house. At this time he can not purchase or sell, or inherit real property until the judgment is paid. It is collecting 8% interest at this time. If I recall my contract law correctly, selling NWA junk as Zulu Queen would be 'Misrepresentation' as well as Unjust Enrichment. Selling Zulu Queen that he didn't know was NWA junk is simply 'Mutual Misunderstanding'. Good luck in proving he had prior knowledge it was NWA junk. This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. -mt Original Message From: AL Mitterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:36 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Greetings List Members, On June 24th 2004 there were some claims made against the person in question. Apparently there was a lawsuit against this seller. I have stayed clear of him ever since, though I never dealt with him. I suggest people look up the archives and do their own reading and decide for themselves. It may be the issue was resolved but I guess my feeling is how it got to that point in the first place. Best! --AL Mitterling __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Moni All, Thanks for your comments, Moni. IF MY COMMENTS HAVE IN ANY WAY SUGGESTED THAT ALL NON-IMCA SELLERS ARE SHADY, THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY IN NO WAY THE INTENDED INFERENCE ON MY PART! Many such dealers are friends of mine, and for whatever reason (s) I have acquired most of my collection outside of IMCA dealers. I am only a collector (not a dealer), but I trade or sell excess material from time to time and believe that even considering my IMCA membership (# 5967) that they carry much, much greater clout and presence of reputation than do I. The Gemological Institute of America (GIA) has become so significant that, for all intents and purposes, it is impossible for a dealer to trade domestically in, say, diamonds without being a member of the same. IMCA does not have that clout yet, and it is no shortcoming or discredit to them that this is the case because IMCA is so much younger an organization. Perhaps matters such as these -- and their responses to them -- will change that over time... All best, Moni, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Moni Waiblinger Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:07 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hello All, Norbert wrote:[Yes, we are aware of that - and that's our major concern. We've also been doing some independent research on the specimens/meteorites in question, and if you would like to add to our database, please contact us on or off list.] Just be sure if it is still related to all the posts to keep it public and not start off list debates. Some of us like to hear the end of the story. Thank you! Dave, even if a seller is outside of IMCA does not imply he/she is a shady seller. Just write to the list and ask about this person. Some very successful dealers are not members of the IMCA. It would be wonderful if the IMCA will take a stand of getting misrepresentations cleared up though. And I do believe this is already happening like Norbert mentioned. But then again would we have heard of it if it wasn't for Mike Bandli asking questions? It is good information if this problem is made aware to all of us and not kept it secret between some members. And last if someone does have been mislead and the person is not a member of the met-list or the IMCA, I still hope the info would be listed on the sites, so we will all be aware of the dealings. With best regards, Moni _ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh _getintouch_042008 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit
What are the rules of the list and what would be necessary in order to expel someone. Certainly there is enough questions concerning this character to warrant some action.. Personally I don't want to read another email of Bob pointing out another ebay scammer. In my opinion he is extremely bad for this field. There have been other characters with similar practices that have come and gone. What got rid of them? Does anyone know what could be done to notify ebay of his practices in order to limit him from ebay listings? In other words what department/ email address would one write? I don't want to see another questionable meteorite sold to some unsuspecting soul thinking they got something that is not represented. Jay - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit Yes, there was a lawsuit against Bob Evans brought by me. It was in regards to a trade that was partially done, where I sent material and only received a partial trade, then Evans went quiet. No contact for many months. Eventually, I posted about it and received many replies that he has done this before. His modus operandi is usually to go quiet and not communicate. Which is what he's doing now. He did not show in court, I received a default judgment by the judge. Evans did not appeal and a judgment was issued. I spent the money to have the judgment filed in Illinois and a lien filed against his house. At this time he can not purchase or sell, or inherit real property until the judgment is paid. It is collecting 8% interest at this time. If I recall my contract law correctly, selling NWA junk as Zulu Queen would be 'Misrepresentation' as well as Unjust Enrichment. Selling Zulu Queen that he didn't know was NWA junk is simply 'Mutual Misunderstanding'. Good luck in proving he had prior knowledge it was NWA junk. This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. -mt Original Message From: AL Mitterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:36 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Greetings List Members, On June 24th 2004 there were some claims made against the person in question. Apparently there was a lawsuit against this seller. I have stayed clear of him ever since, though I never dealt with him. I suggest people look up the archives and do their own reading and decide for themselves. It may be the issue was resolved but I guess my feeling is how it got to that point in the first place. Best! --AL Mitterling __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Shade Tree Dealer
List, Greetings, I am new to the collecting of these extertrestial gems. All of my collection is of the micro to ~5 grams size. I suppose that if a monetary value were to placed on it, it would maybe reach $1K. To set there and delibertly take money from someone is a thing which in the Old West would lead to a very quick necktie party. IMO, someone playing to their trust in them and in fact lying to them is guilty of thieft, for when you lie you have stolen both trust and the truth, neither of which is something everyone relies on to keep things on the up and up. It's sorta like my Doctor giving me my Phenumonia shot and about 8 hours later my arm wants to fall off. I call him up and ask is this a normal thing? He answered Yes. I asked Why didn't you tell me this would happen? He said You didn't ask Seems to me that's kinda important to know. You can bet your little bippie I'll ask from now on!!! On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Wendy Piatek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim I have one of those Claretin. Is is a valid meteorite or do I pitch it in the delete basket? Makes me glad that I didn't take him up on the Micro Ensisheim at $50. It's safe to say I may not be purchassing any more from that source, bonifides not withstanding. I am a firm believer in word of mouth advertising pro or con and enough has been said to raise my BP, which is something my Doctor would skin me alive if I let it happen. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit
Walter All, Agreed, though nice might easily be taken to include with integrity. As it stands today, McCartney is correct to say good luck proving that [so-and-so] had prior knowledge they were selling NWA junk as something of significant provenance. Again, were IMCA to establish enough power over time by virtue of the value of their authority, they would be able to deny membership to sellers who could not or would not provide proper evidence of provenance for certain types of specimens. Maybe a pipe dream, maybe not. But playing nice, it seems to me, does not include sitting on the sidelines only to watch something which may be detrimental to this field unfold (and for which apparently zero counter-evidence has been provided after repeated requests) without question by SOMEone or SOME body of authority. Of course this is just one guy's opinion... Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Walter Branch Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:13 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. Well said, McCartney. -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit Yes, there was a lawsuit against Bob Evans brought by me. It was in regards to a trade that was partially done, where I sent material and only received a partial trade, then Evans went quiet. No contact for many months. Eventually, I posted about it and received many replies that he has done this before. His modus operandi is usually to go quiet and not communicate. Which is what he's doing now. He did not show in court, I received a default judgment by the judge. Evans did not appeal and a judgment was issued. I spent the money to have the judgment filed in Illinois and a lien filed against his house. At this time he can not purchase or sell, or inherit real property until the judgment is paid. It is collecting 8% interest at this time. If I recall my contract law correctly, selling NWA junk as Zulu Queen would be 'Misrepresentation' as well as Unjust Enrichment. Selling Zulu Queen that he didn't know was NWA junk is simply 'Mutual Misunderstanding'. Good luck in proving he had prior knowledge it was NWA junk. This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. -mt Original Message From: AL Mitterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:36 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Greetings List Members, On June 24th 2004 there were some claims made against the person in question. Apparently there was a lawsuit against this seller. I have stayed clear of him ever since, though I never dealt with him. I suggest people look up the archives and do their own reading and decide for themselves. It may be the issue was resolved but I guess my feeling is how it got to that point in the first place. Best! --AL Mitterling __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin and all, Jay is correct on this, as far my own situation and to my postings. You can add Mooresfort to the list of samples that Bob Evans has offered for sale (offered to me privately, not on eBay), and for which the information he supplied was not verified by the source he quoted. The source he quoted was a highly respected meteorite dealer who said he never had any Mooresfort samples. Mark Grossman - Original Message - From: Wendy Piatek [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean you see it in these cases, which might be
Re: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit
Hi McCartney, I do not care for the phrase you used NWA junk No real meteorite is junk. I could care less where a meteorite lands as long as it was legally obtained. I am a sample person, along with hundreds of other collectors who collect by type including NASA ans many instatutions. My main concern is that all samples be laboratory confirmed as to its rarity by type, not where or when it fell. My problem with Bob Evans stemmed from his self-proclaimed pairings and stolen descriptions. I argued continually with him and Stan for several months and it seemed very few cared. Now, lab work is greatly appreciated and reputable dealers would never dream of borrowing others numbers and descriptions. As far as rare or historical falls are concerned, I generally avoid them as I have been taken for several thousand on such deals. Kapoeta, in particular sold to me by a well-known and respected dealer at the time now stands out. This left an indelible scare on my mind. It changed my habits and turned me into a type collector instead of accumulating historical material. Please do not call any meteorite Junk as I find it disrespectful. Adam Cartney Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, there was a lawsuit against Bob Evans brought by me. It was in regards to a trade that was partially done, where I sent material and only received a partial trade, then Evans went quiet. No contact for many months. Eventually, I posted about it and received many replies that he has done this before. His modus operandi is usually to go quiet and not communicate. Which is what he's doing now. He did not show in court, I received a default judgment by the judge. Evans did not appeal and a judgment was issued. I spent the money to have the judgment filed in Illinois and a lien filed against his house. At this time he can not purchase or sell, or inherit real property until the judgment is paid. It is collecting 8% interest at this time. If I recall my contract law correctly, selling NWA junk as Zulu Queen would be 'Misrepresentation' as well as Unjust Enrichment. Selling Zulu Queen that he didn't know was NWA junk is simply 'Mutual Misunderstanding'. Good luck in proving he had prior knowledge it was NWA junk. This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. -mt Original Message From: AL Mitterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:36 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Greetings List Members, On June 24th 2004 there were some claims made against the person in question. Apparently there was a lawsuit against this seller. I have stayed clear of him ever since, though I never dealt with him. I suggest people look up the archives and do their own reading and decide for themselves. It may be the issue was resolved but I guess my feeling is how it got to that point in the first place. Best! --AL Mitterling __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] record keeping
List, Well when I started putting together my little collection, I had no idea the strict record keeping would be just so neccessary. Thankfully I have all the specimen cards for that will be the only way for the past to be traced. If neccessary, I will make a folder and transfer all my Emails reguarding every purchase to that folder. (If anyone needs help in moving email to a seperate folder from Windows, let me know and I can show you how to move to non email programs folders). I will save every Ebay page in HTML format. I'll even go so far as to save thepackaging it comes in. Pete IMCA 1733 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD - ebay: Bruderheim, stunning LL3's, eucrite, rumurutite, historic falls, ...
Hi All, I have 12 auctions ending in about one day: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZpema9 If you need more info concerning provenance, please ask! Thank you, Peter Peter Marmet Bern, Switzerland IMCA #2747 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/ ebay: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZpema9 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MCcartney Taylor
Listen MCcartney, You little know it all prick. Did you do any lying in court ? Based on the paper work you did indeed. This cant be discussed here any further and you know it. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] MCcartney Taylor
Now this is class. First you rip him off. You don't show up to court. He wins. You don't pay up. And you have the gall to name call. You need to just crawl back in your hole and leave the meteorite community. We will be much better off.. This will not go away this time. Your silence again just shows your guilt. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Bob Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 4:08 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] MCcartney Taylor Listen MCcartney, You little know it all prick. Did you do any lying in court ? Based on the paper work you did indeed. This cant be discussed here any further and you know it. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] MCcartney Taylor
Your day to prove the case has long gone. The court has all my documentation and I stand by it. I gave you many opportunities to solve this issue before I went to the met list with the problem. You didn't even respond to emails or ebay messages. Foolishly, you didn't even respond to the lawsuit. You brought it all upon yourself by your own actions. You have, with your email, help establish your character. Thank you. -mt IMCA 2760 Original Message From: Bob Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 3:08 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] MCcartney Taylor Listen MCcartney, You little know it all prick. Did you do any lying in court ? Based on the paper work you did indeed. This cant be discussed here any further and you know it. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit
Hi Dave, and All, You wrote: Again, were IMCA to establish enough power over time by virtue of the value of their authority, they would be able to deny membership to sellers who could not or would not provide proper evidence of provenance for certain types of specimens. Maybe a pipe dream, maybe not. We actually do that on a regular basis, already. We are getting about four membership applications or more per week, and only about one is approved by a majority vote by the IMCA Board of Directors. Some applications don't even make it to voting as many applicants fail to list recommending members, or just fill in names of members who never heard about them. So yes, we check the reputation of each and every applicant, we check their eBay auctions and website sales (if any), and we often discuss their behaviour on the list (if they are posting here), and other things prior to voting. Of course, that doesn't mean that we can check everything, and sometimes we receive complaints about our members that are always taken very seriously by the IMCA Board of Directors. There have been a few cases in which we had to expell members for various reasons, and I think most of you are aware of that. So it's not just a dream - the IMCA is very real and functioning; I just wish that more people would be aware of that. In any case, be assured that some people would have no chance to get into our Association - we're certainly not blind, and we are very well aware of what's going on. All of you good guys and gals are most welcome, of course. So, if you are a honest dealer, and if you are no IMCA member, thus far, why not? All the best, Norbert Classen President, IMCA Inc. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Walter All, Agreed, though nice might easily be taken to include with integrity. As it stands today, McCartney is correct to say good luck proving that [so-and-so] had prior knowledge they were selling NWA junk as something of significant provenance. Again, were IMCA to establish enough power over time by virtue of the value of their authority, they would be able to deny membership to sellers who could not or would not provide proper evidence of provenance for certain types of specimens. Maybe a pipe dream, maybe not. But playing nice, it seems to me, does not include sitting on the sidelines only to watch something which may be detrimental to this field unfold (and for which apparently zero counter-evidence has been provided after repeated requests) without question by SOMEone or SOME body of authority. Of course this is just one guy's opinion... Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Walter Branch Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:13 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. Well said, McCartney. -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit Yes, there was a lawsuit against Bob Evans brought by me. It was in regards to a trade that was partially done, where I sent material and only received a partial trade, then Evans went quiet. No contact for many months. Eventually, I posted about it and received many replies that he has done this before. His modus operandi is usually to go quiet and not communicate. Which is what he's doing now. He did not show in court, I received a default judgment by the judge. Evans did not appeal and a judgment was issued. I spent the money to have the judgment filed in Illinois and a lien filed against his house. At this time he can not purchase or sell, or inherit real property until the judgment is paid. It is collecting 8% interest at this time. If I recall my contract law correctly, selling NWA junk as Zulu Queen would be 'Misrepresentation' as well as Unjust Enrichment. Selling Zulu Queen that he didn't know was NWA junk is simply 'Mutual Misunderstanding'. Good luck in proving he had prior knowledge it was NWA junk. This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. -mt Original Message From: AL Mitterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:36 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Greetings List Members, On June 24th 2004 there were some claims made against the person in question. Apparently there was a lawsuit against this seller. I have stayed clear of him ever since, though I never dealt with him. I suggest people look up the archives and do their own reading and decide for themselves. It may be the issue was resolved but I guess my feeling is how it got to that point in the first place. Best! --AL Mitterling __
[meteorite-list] Re foul language
To: Bob Evans Subj: Foul Language I say this on list because I beleive that I'm speaking for the majority of the list. Please keep your foul language off the list. If you must (and it appears you do) use this type of language then take it off list. I don't want my grandkids (six years old) to come visiting and see the likes of that on my computer. Pete IMCA 1733 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit
Hello Norbert All, I absolutely realize that the IMCA does a lot of wonderful things today and hope that my suggestions weren't taken in any other way. Most of what I've said has been forward looking by design, and given the great start that the IMCA is off to it is that organization which is best positioned to tackle some of these bigger issues to an even greater extent in the future. I was honored to be accepted as a member and hope that everything I do in the arena is in keeping with the terrific standards which you have established. Thanks, Dave -Original Message- From: Norbert Classen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Walter Branch'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit Hi Dave, and All, You wrote: Again, were IMCA to establish enough power over time by virtue of the value of their authority, they would be able to deny membership to sellers who could not or would not provide proper evidence of provenance for certain types of specimens. Maybe a pipe dream, maybe not. We actually do that on a regular basis, already. We are getting about four membership applications or more per week, and only about one is approved by a majority vote by the IMCA Board of Directors. Some applications don't even make it to voting as many applicants fail to list recommending members, or just fill in names of members who never heard about them. So yes, we check the reputation of each and every applicant, we check their eBay auctions and website sales (if any), and we often discuss their behaviour on the list (if they are posting here), and other things prior to voting. Of course, that doesn't mean that we can check everything, and sometimes we receive complaints about our members that are always taken very seriously by the IMCA Board of Directors. There have been a few cases in which we had to expell members for various reasons, and I think most of you are aware of that. So it's not just a dream - the IMCA is very real and functioning; I just wish that more people would be aware of that. In any case, be assured that some people would have no chance to get into our Association - we're certainly not blind, and we are very well aware of what's going on. All of you good guys and gals are most welcome, of course. So, if you are a honest dealer, and if you are no IMCA member, thus far, why not? All the best, Norbert Classen President, IMCA Inc. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Walter All, Agreed, though nice might easily be taken to include with integrity. As it stands today, McCartney is correct to say good luck proving that [so-and-so] had prior knowledge they were selling NWA junk as something of significant provenance. Again, were IMCA to establish enough power over time by virtue of the value of their authority, they would be able to deny membership to sellers who could not or would not provide proper evidence of provenance for certain types of specimens. Maybe a pipe dream, maybe not. But playing nice, it seems to me, does not include sitting on the sidelines only to watch something which may be detrimental to this field unfold (and for which apparently zero counter-evidence has been provided after repeated requests) without question by SOMEone or SOME body of authority. Of course this is just one guy's opinion... Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Walter Branch Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:13 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit This is a small sandbox we play in. Play nice. Well said, McCartney. -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] The Bob Evans Lawsuit Yes, there was a lawsuit against Bob Evans brought by me. It was in regards to a trade that was partially done, where I sent material and only received a partial trade, then Evans went quiet. No contact for many months. Eventually, I posted about it and received many replies that he has done this before. His modus operandi is usually to go quiet and not communicate. Which is what he's doing now. He did not show in court, I received a default judgment by the judge. Evans did not appeal and a judgment was issued. I spent the money to have the judgment filed in Illinois and a lien filed against his house. At this time he can not purchase or sell, or inherit real property until the judgment is paid. It is collecting 8% interest at this time. If I recall my contract law correctly, selling NWA junk as Zulu Queen would be 'Misrepresentation' as well as Unjust Enrichment. Selling Zulu Queen that he didn't know was NWA junk is simply 'Mutual Misunderstanding'. Good luck in proving he had prior knowledge
[meteorite-list] AD: Special - NWA 4925 New Mars - to take thirds Last Call
Now back to innocent meteorites: Dear collectors, The premiere of our new Martian was a full success, the reviews about the material were unanimously positive, from highly delighted to enthusiastic. So we want to thank all for having accepted that offer so vividly. In fact we sold more then expected and planned (and actually as we liked to at that price) - but no way out, as we promised that the 400$/g will be available until this Sunday. Stefan had to prepare two series of slices more, additionally to those from the initial special-page; more than half of the stone will have been gone in slices after this week. Therefore, as announced in the first ad, we will double the price to a well justifiable average of 800$/g from Monday on and again, we'd ask you not to be angry, if we can't give it away later at the price of this week anymore. Here now, if you weren't sure yet, whether to take advantage of the offer, the very last specimens from the 3rd series: A last fullslice, category: from Center piece to Mars of my Life, and seven partial slices, some with an extra portion of the crispy light weathering rind. http://www.chladnis-heirs.com/special-nwa4925.html All the Best! Martin Stefan Chladni's Heirs Munich - Berlin Fine Meteorites for Science Collectors __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Dear Moni, and All, And last if someone does have been mislead and the person is not a member of the met-list or the IMCA, I still hope the info would be listed on the sites, so we will all be aware of the dealings. The IMCA will certainly do so as soon a we have solid proof. That's not always that easy in cases of alleged misrepresentation of specimens, and we are not in the position to accuse anyone of fraud or misrepresentation unless we have such proof. Unfortunatelly, sometimes we only have strong suspicions, or pieces of circumstantial evidence... In the case in question we are still in the process of investigating the facts - we contacted museums and collectors that could have served as sources of said specimens, for example. And we learned that even Museum and University records are often not reliable or complete. Take Bialystok, for instance: we found that the Museum of Berlin sold/traded out some 30g of Bialystok, but when, and to whom? The current curator had no answer to this, and so there could be quite a bit real Bialystok around... I just mentioned Bialystok because Martin already mentioned it in a previous email. There are other examples, and cases that we checked into, but I won't tell our findings in public as long as the seller in question is reading all of this, and could misuse that information. You see our dilemma? So, if you want to contribute to our investigation - we are always open for your input. Last but not least, be assured that we will keep you up to date, and that we will tell you the end of the story, if we ever come to an end. All the best, Norbert Classen President, IMCA Inc. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Hello All, Norbert wrote:[Yes, we are aware of that - and that's our major concern. We've also been doing some independent research on the specimens/meteorites in question, and if you would like to add to our database, please contact us on or off list.] Just be sure if it is still related to all the posts to keep it public and not start off list debates. Some of us like to hear the end of the story. Thank you! Dave, even if a seller is outside of IMCA does not imply he/she is a shady seller. Just write to the list and ask about this person. Some very successful dealers are not members of the IMCA. It would be wonderful if the IMCA will take a stand of getting misrepresentations cleared up though. And I do believe this is already happening like Norbert mentioned. But then again would we have heard of it if it wasn't for Mike Bandli asking questions? It is good information if this problem is made aware to all of us and not kept it secret between some members. And last if someone does have been mislead and the person is not a member of the met-list or the IMCA, I still hope the info would be listed on the sites, so we will all be aware of the dealings. With best regards, Moni _ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh _getintouch_042008 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Norton's RFS Hardcover Help
I am hoping someone out there with the hardcover edition of Norton's RFS can scan the Bruderheim image on page 164 (assuming it is the correct image and it is the same page as the soft-cover) so I can compare it to my specimen. Thanks in advance! Mike Bandli __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NWA 4925 Close-Up
I forgot in the last email to present a fine photo, Bernd Pauli made of his slice, and which he allowed us to show - many thanks, Bernd! It excellently summarizes the characteristics of NWA 4925! http://www.chladnis-heirs.com/NWA%204925x16-03.jpg (16x magnification) Best! Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 4925 Close-Up
Great close-up, Martin! Is the colour accurate? Pete From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:39:03 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 4925 Close-Up I forgot in the last email to present a fine photo, Bernd Pauli made of his slice, and which he allowed us to show - many thanks, Bernd! It excellently summarizes the characteristics of NWA 4925! http://www.chladnis-heirs.com/NWA%204925x16-03.jpg (16x magnification) Best! Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Enter today for your chance to win $1000 a day—today until May 12th. Learn more at SignInAndWIN.ca http://g.msn.ca/ca55/215 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Norton's RFS Hardcover Help
In a message dated 4/12/2008 4:33:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am hoping someone out there with the hardcover edition of Norton's RFS can scan the Bruderheim image on page 164 (assuming it is the correct image and it is the same page as the soft-cover) so I can compare it to my specimen. Thanks in advance! Mike Bandli - I have both the hard cover and the soft cover editions. The picture of the Bruderheim on page 164 is exactly the same. You might want to compare your specimen to the pictures on the Encyclopedia of Meteorites: _http://encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com_ (http://encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com) I hope this helps. Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice-President of IMCA _www.IMCA.cc_ (http://www.IMCA.cc) **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp0030002850) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 4925 Close-Up
Bernd Pauli made it. The colours fit well. It's the most colourful Martian I ever saw. Especially the large phenocrysts, the blobs, they are zoned or rimmed, and inside they have different colours, depending on their oxidation, from dark grey-brown to a very tasty screaming orange, especially in or close to the light weathering rind, as you can observe also in the pictures on the special-page. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Pete Pete Gesendet: Sonntag, 13. April 2008 01:01 An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 4925 Close-Up Great close-up, Martin! Is the colour accurate? Pete From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:39:03 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 4925 Close-Up I forgot in the last email to present a fine photo, Bernd Pauli made of his slice, and which he allowed us to show - many thanks, Bernd! It excellently summarizes the characteristics of NWA 4925! http://www.chladnis-heirs.com/NWA%204925x16-03.jpg (16x magnification) Best! Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Enter today for your chance to win $1000 a daytoday until May 12th. Learn more at SignInAndWIN.ca http://g.msn.ca/ca55/215 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Norton's RFS Hardcover Help
Thanks to those who sent pics! Unfortunately, it is the same image with the incorrect caption/image. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Bandli Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 3:33 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Norton's RFS Hardcover Help I am hoping someone out there with the hardcover edition of Norton's RFS can scan the Bruderheim image on page 164 (assuming it is the correct image and it is the same page as the soft-cover) so I can compare it to my specimen. Thanks in advance! Mike Bandli __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Question
Anybody ever heard of American Meteorite Laboratory? Pete __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question
http://www.minrec.org/labels.asp?colid=360 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Shugar Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 7:46 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Question Anybody ever heard of American Meteorite Laboratory? Pete __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Mark and all, Speaking of Mooresfort: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/May/Accretion_Desk.htm Cheers, Martin On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Mark Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can add Mooresfort to the list of samples that Bob Evans has offered for sale (offered to me privately, not on eBay), and for which the information he supplied was not verified by the source he quoted. The source he quoted was a highly respected meteorite dealer who said he never had any Mooresfort samples. Mark Grossman __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - April 13, 2008
http://www.rocksfromspace.org/April_13_2008.html **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp0030002850) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
