[meteorite-list] Tucson Photos, Mayhem Birthday Bash Meteorite Auction
Hello List Here some photos from the Eleventh Annual Meteor Mayhem Birthday Bash Harvey http://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonaviking/sets/72157623244741849/ and Tucson Meteorite Auction 2010 Tonight http://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonaviking/sets/72157623369310888/ Only have time to post a few, more coming soon. Enjoy Arizona Keith __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD - Sunday Only 30%-OFF Tucson Sale
Hi Folks! If any of you have access to Facebook, check out Gary Fujihara's and John Humphries' photo galleries. As Aziz said in a prior posting, they are both doing a great job of posting photos and updates of the Tucson show. Thanks to Arizona Keith as well for sharing his photos here on the List. It's the next best thing to being there for us shut-ins. For those collectors who are stuck at home, I am offering a 30% discount on *everything* in my store - no exceptions. Just use the coupon code tucson at checkout to get the discount. (minimum order is $10) - the coupon code is case sensitive, so type it exactly as shown. http://www.galactic-stone.com This sale is only good until midnight tonight (12:00am EST). Thanks for looking and enjoy the show! MikeG -- Mike Gilmer http://www.galactic-stone.com http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)
Hello Shawn, please don't use that article from Schmitt any longer, because it is incorrect and misleading. Schmitt writes (with a quotation, where he left out the most important words), that the UNESCO convention of 1970 would include meteorites. And inanother place: This Convention, ratified by over 90 states, provides for tracking and retrieving from reciprocating states, cultural property including meteorites. That is wrong. Full stop. The point about Switzerland is wrong too. Huh, would have to rummage my old emails, I once occupied myself with that Schmitt-topic... A here it is one o them (see below)... (Perhaps I should add, that also technically the UNESCO convention can't protect anything, because - as given in the text of the convention - it has to be ratified by each nation first, and each nation individually has to create an individual list of items of their national heritage. Only if that has happened and if meteorites are found in the individual national heritage lists (like e.g. in Australia) the convention is effective). And anyway, other meteorite laws... In most constitutional countries personal property belongs to the strongest personal rights and is especially protected. In such countries od rule of law, disappropriation (with ot without compensation) by a state or to limit the use of a property (like e.g. to forbid to sell to other countries) is grave intervention of the individual personal rights, which, if done, requires a especially strong resons, usually the pubic weal or interest. You know, cases of land dissapropriation for building a highway ect. In most of these constitutional nations, legislation and judicature are separated. So not the law is decisive - a judge or a court have to decide. Furthermore such constitutional countries do have a interdiction of arbitrary laws, laws made for only a single case are not effective. Such laws can exist, but a court has to decide and it is also possible to proof them by a court, whether they are constitutional or not. So. If e.g. a country like Switzerland or Denmark, where only every 30 or 80 years a meteorite falls, would have a special meteorite law (which they don't have), it would be highly doubtful, whether that law would be valuable. And if a country has a law, which allows a disappropriation by or a right of preemption by (like Switzerland has) or a compulsory sale of a meteorite to the state, because it is an object of high public or scientific importance or interest, this interest has to be justified and proven. Switzerland e.g. would have most probably difficulties to do that. If one sees, that the state wasn't willing to preserve the historical Bally-meteorite-collection, the most important meteorite collection of Switzerland and that no single public institute took advantage from the preemption to buy it, when it was liquidated a few years ago, or if one keeps in mind, that no official efforts to find the meteorite of the Lake Constance fireball were undertaken (e.g. in Romania the state was hunting for the last fireballs) and if one sees, that Switzerland made no use of that very law with the large rock crystal, found in Switzerland by commercial rock hunters, but will buy it from them for several millions, than a Suisse court most probably would state, that a meteorite isn't of the necessary importance, the law requires. Or in other words, a confused meteoricist can have as many laws for meteorites as he wants, whether these laws are valid at all or in the very individual case - in most constitutional countries will have to decide a judge. I'm convinced, that in some countries, the meteorite laws are in that respect somewhat problematic, to express it politely. Problem is, that most of these people who are producing meteorites in finding them, are to civilized to waste their time with such rubbish, to fight in court for stones, and so theses laws never were proven, whether they are valid or constitutional at all. Anyway, as doubtful some meteorite laws, I think meanwhile most see, that meteorite laws in general have a very negative effect. In Australia e.g.the strain to science is so high, that first voices appear, to revise the laws, that finally again meteorites will be found there again. Here a suggestion to revise the laws from Pickard of the Bathurst observatory. http://www.arts.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/88073/bathurst-observator y.pdf Perhaps, in the end, in my eyes that laws debate isn't a discussion about ethics, as it sometimes is imposed. Yesterday I googled for the Chinese law for protection of cultural relics, whether meteorites could be afflicted too. (You know, China asks everywhere its fossils back). There I stumbled by chance over a Presidental Decree from the Philippines of 1974 (!) - who would ever known, that since 36 years meteorites, tektites, the rizalites, Anda-tektites from the Philippines are cultural property... A decree from the dictator Marcos. I highly
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Phil, Martin , List, Not to beat a dead horse here but, we all understand the way things are now. In this link I provided earlier and again below there are particular events that occurred that may effect the outcome of this new case. Please read link again and click on the past precedence they link to. One is the Pierson V. Post case. ( this is highlighted in the article) In this case the court ruled the way most of us would expect. Surprisingly when the ruling was challenged in the supreme court. The decision was reversed! OMG, This case is about possession and is probably what John Lennon meant when he said; Possession isn't nine-tenths of the law. It's nine-tenths of the problem. . Please take particular note of the boxed area which quotes the exchange between the Doctor and his landlord. The doctor says he called the landlord and told him he plans to hand the meteorite over to the Smithsonian. He goes on to say that the landlord gave him PERMISSION to do so. I may be old school but once the landlord Ok' d the hand over he gave up ownership. Verbal agreements are legally binding. Obviously the landlord later realized he had made a mistake so, had his brother try to reclaim it but the fact is once you give something away you NO longer own it. Period. Sorry but please re-read this article linked here.' http://brightcoast.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/meteorite-law-are-tenants-lost-in-space/ So, you see there are issues that clearly need pursuing but, Please all due respect to Indians today but as a kid we used to call this Indian Giving. Sorry about that I would never use this term today but thought it would make the point that you cannot take back something you previously gave away. Sorry, if you are of sound mind at the time you just cannot. No matter how bad you feel about it later. The meteorite has already changed hands. Maybe. Only the courts can decide now. Actually as already noted by another list member maybe they should divide it three ways and be done with it? Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Phil Whitmer prairiecac...@rtcol.com wrote: When you acquire clear title to a piece of property, you also get landowners rights. These rights are written into the state constitutions or the bill of rights. You own everything above, below and on your land. Once a meteorite enters your air space, you own it. Anyone who tries to take it can be charged with theft, here in Indiana, felony theft. If I was the landowner in the Lorton case, I would file felony theft charges against whoever stole my property. Since there are no specific laws pertaining to meteorites, the courts would decide the cases by legal precedent. This was all worked out by the time of the Hodges meteorite case in 1954. If you think the landowners rights are unconstitutional, and you want to defy precedent, lots of luck to you and your lawyers, as you sue for ownership of someone else's property. There's no way these rules are changing anytime soon, especially not for meteorites. Phil Whitmer I am an uninformed reader but, where can I find these Meteorite Laws? I usually only carry a copy of the Federal Regulations Title 43 Part 8360, that allows me to remove mineral specimens from public lands, should I run into an agent who is not familiar with the law. But, I am not familiar with Meteorite Laws. I know that Michelle Knapps had no trouble claiming and selling the Peekskill meteorite. Just need to know where to find these said new laws.. Thanks! Miss seeing everyone in Tucson. Had to have a Knee tune up after tromping around Egypt. Dennis __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tucson Meteorite Auction 2010
...I second that request. Any news folks? Does anyone have a list of hammer prices that would be willing to check on a few lots for me. Please. Ryan Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com wrote: Lister, I am wondering how the Tucson Meteorite Auction 2010 is going and if anyone knows what the selling prices are going for the auctioned meteoirtes? http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/TucsonAuction10.html Shawn Alan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
The doctor says he called the landlord and told him he plans to hand the meteorite over to the Smithsonian. He goes on to say that the landlord gave him PERMISSION to do so. I may be old school but once the landlord Ok' d the hand over he gave up ownership. Verbal agreements are legally binding. Obviously the landlord later realized he had made a mistake so, had his brother try to reclaim it but the fact is once you give something away you NO longer own it. Period. Sorry but please re-read this article linked here.' Hi Carl and Phil, Carl, you are assuming that the doctor is telling the truth. I have seen no proof in those articles that the landlord has ever given any such permission. He probably did, but we can't assume that just because the doctor said so. When you acquire clear title to a piece of property, you also get landowners rights. These rights are written into the state constitutions or the bill of rights. You own everything above, below and on your land. I'm sorry, but you are not correct, Phil. Some (many? most?) states in the U.S. don't grant you the mineral rights under your house/business. You have to purchase that separately (if this is allowed in your state, county or municipality). In Colorado, you don't own the mineral rights under the house you just bought, unless you get that specified in the title. That wouldn't be relevant for a meteorite that just fell, but I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows that everything below your house is not necessarily owned by you. A friend of mine researched this 5 or so years ago and that is what he found here in Colorado. I've heard from a few others in other states who said the same thing. Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:40 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Phil Whitmer Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Phil, Martin , List, Not to beat a dead horse here but, we all understand the way things are now. In this link I provided earlier and again below there are particular events that occurred that may effect the outcome of this new case. Please read link again and click on the past precedence they link to. One is the Pierson V. Post case. ( this is highlighted in the article) In this case the court ruled the way most of us would expect. Surprisingly when the ruling was challenged in the supreme court. The decision was reversed! OMG, This case is about possession and is probably what John Lennon meant when he said; Possession isn't nine-tenths of the law. It's nine-tenths of the problem. . Please take particular note of the boxed area which quotes the exchange between the Doctor and his landlord. The doctor says he called the landlord and told him he plans to hand the meteorite over to the Smithsonian. He goes on to say that the landlord gave him PERMISSION to do so. I may be old school but once the landlord Ok' d the hand over he gave up ownership. Verbal agreements are legally binding. Obviously the landlord later realized he had made a mistake so, had his brother try to reclaim it but the fact is once you give something away you NO longer own it. Period. Sorry but please re-read this article linked here.' http://brightcoast.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/meteorite-law-are-tenants-lost-i n-space/ So, you see there are issues that clearly need pursuing but, Please all due respect to Indians today but as a kid we used to call this Indian Giving. Sorry about that I would never use this term today but thought it would make the point that you cannot take back something you previously gave away. Sorry, if you are of sound mind at the time you just cannot. No matter how bad you feel about it later. The meteorite has already changed hands. Maybe. Only the courts can decide now. Actually as already noted by another list member maybe they should divide it three ways and be done with it? Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Phil Whitmer prairiecac...@rtcol.com wrote: When you acquire clear title to a piece of property, you also get landowners rights. These rights are written into the state constitutions or the bill of rights. You own everything above, below and on your land. Once a meteorite enters your air space, you own it. Anyone who tries to take it can be charged with theft, here in Indiana, felony theft. If I was the landowner in the Lorton case, I would file felony theft charges against whoever stole my property. Since there are no specific laws pertaining to meteorites, the courts would decide the cases by legal precedent. This was all worked out by the time of the Hodges meteorite case in 1954. If you think the landowners rights are unconstitutional, and you want to defy precedent, lots of luck to you and your lawyers, as you sue for ownership of someone else's
[meteorite-list] AD: New Meteorites Listed - Oriented Irons and Stones Plus More
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
Hi Carl, You do have a good point here. I wish the Gov would let us hunt on Fed land without needing to get permits because there are a lot of us who would do the right thing and give the found meteorites to them. I want to find meteorites just for the thrill of it, so I would still do it even if I couldn't keep what I found. And maybe the Gov would let me keep one if I found a bunch. Or maybe not. But in any case, letting meteorites erode away is pointless. Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: cdtuc...@cox.net [mailto:cdtuc...@cox.net] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:40 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Bob Loeffler Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Bob, Thank you for the response. That is fair to say but the problem with Federal land is that it is illegal to pick the stuff up without a permit. So, the collection has to be for the government. if you don't pick it up it will rot and then nobody will ever get a chance at it. During the mapping of Gold Basin. Nobody wanted to bother to collect the material on into the federal land because they could not keep it. 100% of the meteorites found on Federal area of the gold basin strewnfield had to be given to the smithsonian museum. If you look at the map it is very much lighter on the federal owned section. Today you will get into big trouble if caught hunting there. But when on state land you are allowed to pick stuff up. that's all I'm saying. Why do they differ? State land meteorites get picked up and preserved. Federal meteorites get to rot. There must still be tons of meteorites yet to be found but never will be due to these stupid laws. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Bob Loeffler b...@peaktopeak.com wrote: Hi Carl, I hate the fact that the Gov. gets to claim treasures found on fed. land. The fed. land belongs to all of us. Gold basin material found on Fed. land all went to the smithsonian. If you don't want the Fed Gov to get the treasures that are found on Fed land, who should get them? Even you said that the treasures belong to all of us, but if you find something and take it home (and either keep it or sell it), the rest of us don't get to share in the ownership or joy of what you found. So then that is not fair because it should belong to all of us, right? So, the Gov puts the treasure in a museum so all of us can see it. All of the people now have a partial ownership/interest in it, not just one or two people. BTW, I don't work for the Gov. and didn't get paid by anyone to say anything. :-) This is just what I think this law is trying to do. I could be wrong. Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:45 PM To: Adam; George Blahun Jr Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' George. Just one moment here. What if the rightful owner of the glasses never claims them? you have no idea who left them. Could have been a visitor asking for directions. Who owns them? The landlord??? Nobody is not the right answer here. Also, Nobody wants your tree but the key is that it is yours! What if you are leasing the tree in a business that sells the fruit? Who is responsible then? The owner of the tree or you because you are in legal control of it. Just asking. In the case of the contractor. Well, he did discover the treasure inside the wall. What most would have done is haul it off into the truck as he was contracted to do and never mention it ( haul away the debris) . What he did do is tell the home owner and she wanted all of it. This case ended in all of her relatives learning of it and the sum was divided many ways between all of them. She got greedy and lost more than she gained . I love this case because greed did not prevail. Her greed cost her mucho dineros . As a side note the contractor did the right thing but it came down to. No good deed goes unpunished. As much as I hate to say that. I was an Architect/contractor and I know most of my subs would have simply hauled away the envelope with the rest of the debris, medicine cabinet and all. Plus she was lucky the envelope had her relatives name on it because it might have belonged to a previous home owner. all of this played out in court. which is why I want to see this in court. I hate the fact that the Gov. gets to claim treasures found on fed. land. The fed. land belongs to all of us. Gold basin material found on Fed. land all went to the smithsonian. That is why the strewn field looks so bottom heavy. Take care and thank you.. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax George Blahun Jr k...@att.net wrote:
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
I had a business law professor in college say that the law looks for someone to pay regardless of whether a person is actually responsible. It may not win in court, but I'll bet the legal argument for someone being hit by a meteorite in a doctor's office would be something like, there is an implied guarantee of safety when entering the building. Hi George, I never thought of it that you and you may be right. Hopefully that won't happen to anyone... because that would hurt! :-) Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: George Blahun Jr [mailto:k...@att.net] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:29 PM To: Bob Loeffler Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Bob: You make a good point, but I think liability laws, which vary state to state are pretty complex. Hopefully, as you suggested some actual legal opinion will be offered. I had a business law professor in college say that the law looks for someone to pay regardless of whether a person is actually responsible. It may not win in court, but I'll bet the legal argument for someone being hit by a meteorite in a doctor's office would be something like, there is an implied guarantee of safety when entering the building. George No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2664 - Release Date: 02/04/10 00:35:00 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
hey Bob, I have since spoken briefly with Twink about this collection around the lake. As an authority on Gold Basin, Twink was kind enough to share with me the facts. I might have this right? I think she said that after the initial giving to the Smithsonian of the first 20% of meteorites collected at the lake. People were able for a short time to keep their finds. This was great because it contributed to the very fine work of mapping that Jim , twink, Kring and others did. This has since ceased to be the case and it is now again illegal to collect under that particular permit. Even though all of the whole find area is all actually of Federal land. I think she said that the Lake area has special restrictions that the southern area does not have ? . So, if I understand this correctly. You may keep a percentage of finds as long as you get the proper permits. Good luck with that! Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Bob Loeffler b...@peaktopeak.com wrote: Hi Carl, You do have a good point here. I wish the Gov would let us hunt on Fed land without needing to get permits because there are a lot of us who would do the right thing and give the found meteorites to them. I want to find meteorites just for the thrill of it, so I would still do it even if I couldn't keep what I found. And maybe the Gov would let me keep one if I found a bunch. Or maybe not. But in any case, letting meteorites erode away is pointless. Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: cdtuc...@cox.net [mailto:cdtuc...@cox.net] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:40 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Bob Loeffler Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Bob, Thank you for the response. That is fair to say but the problem with Federal land is that it is illegal to pick the stuff up without a permit. So, the collection has to be for the government. if you don't pick it up it will rot and then nobody will ever get a chance at it. During the mapping of Gold Basin. Nobody wanted to bother to collect the material on into the federal land because they could not keep it. 100% of the meteorites found on Federal area of the gold basin strewnfield had to be given to the smithsonian museum. If you look at the map it is very much lighter on the federal owned section. Today you will get into big trouble if caught hunting there. But when on state land you are allowed to pick stuff up. that's all I'm saying. Why do they differ? State land meteorites get picked up and preserved. Federal meteorites get to rot. There must still be tons of meteorites yet to be found but never will be due to these stupid laws. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Bob Loeffler b...@peaktopeak.com wrote: Hi Carl, I hate the fact that the Gov. gets to claim treasures found on fed. land. The fed. land belongs to all of us. Gold basin material found on Fed. land all went to the smithsonian. If you don't want the Fed Gov to get the treasures that are found on Fed land, who should get them? Even you said that the treasures belong to all of us, but if you find something and take it home (and either keep it or sell it), the rest of us don't get to share in the ownership or joy of what you found. So then that is not fair because it should belong to all of us, right? So, the Gov puts the treasure in a museum so all of us can see it. All of the people now have a partial ownership/interest in it, not just one or two people. BTW, I don't work for the Gov. and didn't get paid by anyone to say anything. :-) This is just what I think this law is trying to do. I could be wrong. Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:45 PM To: Adam; George Blahun Jr Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' George. Just one moment here. What if the rightful owner of the glasses never claims them? you have no idea who left them. Could have been a visitor asking for directions. Who owns them? The landlord??? Nobody is not the right answer here. Also, Nobody wants your tree but the key is that it is yours! What if you are leasing the tree in a business that sells the fruit? Who is responsible then? The owner of the tree or you because you are in legal control of it. Just asking. In the case of the contractor. Well, he did discover the treasure inside the wall. What most would have done is haul it off into the truck as he was contracted to do and never mention it ( haul away the debris) . What he did do is tell the home owner and she wanted all of it. This case ended in all of her relatives learning of it and the sum
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong)
Martin/List Stated by Martin.. Hello Shawn, please don't use that article from Schmitt any longer, because it is incorrect and misleading. Here is the misleading article link http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=0plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_GIFclassic=YES Martin I am glad you think its misleading I guess when you read the article you also read the part where Schmitt wrote about General Comments on Find Ownership where he stated... The above illustrations indicate the wide range of rules about ownership of meteorite between countries. Each legal system is unique, but in general terms in most places the landownerer of the place of find owns the meteorite. http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=3plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_GIFclassic=YES He further goes on and in his conclusion and states. Meteorite ownership law varies widely. http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=5plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_GIFclassic=YES By the quotes I can infer that Schmitt has suggested that these LAWS vary from country to country and from state to state so people might want to check with their local laws on property rights. Lastly, Martin you stated So we should avoid the term ethics, in the meteorite laws debate.. O should we? I am confused by your should state. I thought this website is set up for discussions on meteorites? I think in the future you might want to consider your choice of words directed to the list. The article by Schmitt, I will continue to post as a reference when law topics come up or when you decide to publish an article in Meteorite Planetary Science that debunks Schmitts Article. Thank you Shawn Alan [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong) Martin Altmann altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Feb 7 11:12:32 EST 2010 Hello Shawn, please don't use that article from Schmitt any longer, because it is incorrect and misleading. Schmitt writes (with a quotation, where he left out the most important words), that the UNESCO convention of 1970 would include meteorites. And inanother place: This Convention, ratified by over 90 states, provides for tracking and retrieving from reciprocating states, cultural property including meteorites. That is wrong. Full stop. The point about Switzerland is wrong too. Huh, would have to rummage my old emails, I once occupied myself with that Schmitt-topic... A here it is one o them (see below)... (Perhaps I should add, that also technically the UNESCO convention can't protect anything, because - as given in the text of the convention - it has to be ratified by each nation first, and each nation individually has to create an individual list of items of their national heritage. Only if that has happened and if meteorites are found in the individual national heritage lists (like e.g. in Australia) the convention is effective). And anyway, other meteorite laws... In most constitutional countries personal property belongs to the strongest personal rights and is especially protected. In such countries od rule of law, disappropriation (with ot without compensation) by a state or to limit the use of a property (like e.g. to forbid to sell to other countries) is grave intervention of the individual personal rights, which, if done, requires a especially strong resons, usually the pubic weal or interest. You know, cases of land dissapropriation for building a highway ect. In most of these constitutional nations, legislation and judicature are separated. So not the law is decisive - a judge or a court have to decide. Furthermore such constitutional countries do have a interdiction of arbitrary laws, laws made for only a single case are not effective. Such laws can exist, but a court has to decide and it is also possible to proof them by a court, whether they are constitutional or not. So. If e.g. a country like Switzerland or Denmark, where only every 30 or 80 years a meteorite falls, would have a special meteorite law (which they don't have), it would be highly doubtful, whether that law would be valuable. And if a country has a law, which allows a disappropriation by or a right of preemption by (like Switzerland has) or a compulsory sale of a meteorite to the state, because it is an object of high public or scientific importance or interest, this interest has to be justified and proven. Switzerland e.g. would have most probably difficulties to do that. If one sees, that the state wasn't willing to preserve the historical Bally-meteorite-collection, the most important meteorite collection of Switzerland and that no single public institute took advantage from the preemption to buy it, when it was liquidated a few years
[meteorite-list] Gold Basin strewn field correction on a post by Carl Esparza
No Carl, you do not have this right at all. What I told you the other night is that Jim Kriegh, John Blennert and I turned in all of our first several hundred specimens to Dr. Kring at the U of A. These were found on BLM land where the field was discovered while hunting for gold. Dolores Hill and Dr. Kring went through these one by one, bagged and labeled them, as Dolores can attest. Twenty per cent of these went to the Smithsonian. The rest were eventually given back to us by Dr. Kring except for a few that the University needed for classification. John, Jim and I also donated several to the University of Arizona Mineral Museum which they still own. As all of us discovered different meteorites in the same strewn field, they were also examined, classified and returned to us except for the slices kept by the U of A for classification. It was a year later that Dr. Kring obtained for Jim Kriegh a permit to hunt on the Lake Mead Recreation Area and Jim, John and I hunted there for a while and were honored to do so. Dr. Kring was interested in knowing whether the strewn field covered the Recreation Area. When we found Gold Basin meteorites at various points even overlooking Lake Mead and walked over lots of flat land and into canyons on both sides of the road into the Recreation area it was obvious that yes, the field extended to Lake Mead. All of these finds on the Lake Mead Recreation area were turned over to Dr. Kring who in turn sent them to the Smithsonian as that had been in the agreement in order to get the permit to hunt on the Recreation area. We had hunted briefly at various spots just to see where they occurred. Jim Kriegh did not ask for the permit to be extended since the information that Dr. Kring needed had been verified. Once the press release came out from the University of Arizona in January 1998, anyone was free to hunt on the original BLM area and we enjoyed many hunts with many of you who became our good friends. Meeting all of you who did hunt with Jim Kriegh or who met him at the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show is what made him the happiest and made the find worthwhile to him. Jim was also pleased to have donated his time for the mapping and scientific information his find afforded the meteorite world. Twink Monrad __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Dawn Journal - January 30, 2010
http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_1_30_10.asp Dawn Journal Dr. Marc Rayman January 30, 2010 Dear Plausible Dawniabilities, Patiently and reliably continuing with its interplanetary voyage, Dawn is now flying in a new configuration and, from the perspective of those readers who may be on Earth, in a new direction. The spacecraft still spends most of its time gradually changing its orbit around the Sun by thrusting with its ion propulsion system. The probe is outfitted with 3 ion thrusters, assigned the heartwarming names thruster #1, thruster #2, and thruster #3. (The nomenclature and locations of the units were divulged in a log shortly after launch, before such information could be distorted and used unethically by others.) The ship only uses 1 thruster at a time. All 3 were tested during the 80-day initial checkout phase of the mission, and when the interplanetary cruise phase commenced in December 2007, it was thruster #3 that was responsible for pushing the spacecraft away from the Sun. It performed flawlessly, but engineers plan to share the workload among the thrusters over the course of the 8-year mission, so thruster #1 was called into action in June 2008. By that time, stalwart #3 had been operated in space for 158 days. (For those readers who have just returned from an enjoyable excursion back to that log, the apparent discrepancy between the 158 days of operating time given here and the 149 days presented there is not an error. The smaller value is the operating time in the interplanetary cruise phase. Thruster #3 had accumulated about 9 days of operation during the initial checkout phase.) Thruster #1 was in service until this month. Although it remains in excellent condition, engineers transmitted instructions in December for the spacecraft to reconfigure for use of a different thruster after its weekly communications session on January 4. By that time, #1 had thrust for almost 318 days. With its famously efficient use of xenon propellant, all that maneuvering consumed only 84.6 kg (187 pounds), yet it imparted 2.2 kilometers/second (4900 miles/hour) to the spacecraft. Now it is #2?s turn. It had barely more than 1 day of total running time in space prior to this month, having been used only for some tests in November 2007 and April and May 2009. Now 2010 will be its year to shine (with a lovely blue-green glow). In addition, as we will see in the next log, for the entirety of the mission, thruster #2 will have the distinction of providing the greatest acceleration to the spacecraft of any of the thrusters. There is much more to the ion propulsion system than the thrusters. As explained in more detail in an earlier log, the system also includes 2 computer controllers and 2 units that draw as much as 2500 watts from Dawn's solar arrays and converts the power to the currents and voltages the thrusters need. Controller #1 and power unit #1 are used for both thruster #1 and #3, so those electrical devices have already worked extensively during the mission, although most of their operation still lies ahead. For now, though, controller #2 and power unit #2 are in charge. Although thruster #2 and its associated components have spent most of their time in space unpowered, they all are now performing just as smoothly as the other ion propulsion system elements did when they were in use. Most of the artistic depictions of the spacecraft in flight happen to show it using thruster #2, the one nearest the main antenna. So the next time you see such an image, probably even at the top of this very page, you might consider that it is very much the way the spacecraft would look right now if you could see it. Of course, Dawn is much too far from Earth to be seen by human eyes, even aided by the most powerful telescopes. But it has recently come nearer to the planet than it had been for nearly 2 years. As we have discussed in many logs (see, for example, November 2008), Earth and Dawn move independently through the solar system. Just as the hands of a clock sometimes move closer together and sometimes farther apart, Dawn and Earth sometimes approach each other and sometimes separate. Some readers may not be at all surprised that even as the probe is receding from the Sun well over 2 years after launch, blazing a trail through the asteroid belt, constantly changing its own orbit (unlike most spacecraft, which coast most of the time, just as planets do), it is no farther from Earth than it was just 5 months after launch. They are excused from reading the material below. Others, however, may find this discussion helpful in thinking more about why this occurs. It is not important for the mission, but it may be satisfying for those who wish to direct a metaphorical gaze to the distant craft. Unlike clock hands, Dawn does not travel in a circular path. Following the initial push away from Earth by the Delta rocket that carried it from Cape Canaveral into space, its orbit around the Sun
Re: [meteorite-list] Gold Basin strewn field correction on a post by Carl Esparza
Twink, Thank you so much for setting the record straight. I am sure that everyone enjoyed your corrected information. I know I did. thanks again. And thanks for the cake at the auction last night. You are wonderful. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Larry Twink Monrad larrytwinkmon...@comcast.net wrote: No Carl, you do not have this right at all. What I told you the other night is that Jim Kriegh, John Blennert and I turned in all of our first several hundred specimens to Dr. Kring at the U of A. These were found on BLM land where the field was discovered while hunting for gold. Dolores Hill and Dr. Kring went through these one by one, bagged and labeled them, as Dolores can attest. Twenty per cent of these went to the Smithsonian. The rest were eventually given back to us by Dr. Kring except for a few that the University needed for classification. John, Jim and I also donated several to the University of Arizona Mineral Museum which they still own. As all of us discovered different meteorites in the same strewn field, they were also examined, classified and returned to us except for the slices kept by the U of A for classification. It was a year later that Dr. Kring obtained for Jim Kriegh a permit to hunt on the Lake Mead Recreation Area and Jim, John and I hunted there for a while and were honored to do so. Dr. Kring was interested in knowing whether the strewn field covered the Recreation Area. When we found Gold Basin meteorites at various points even overlooking Lake Mead and walked over lots of flat land and into canyons on both sides of the road into the Recreation area it was obvious that yes, the field extended to Lake Mead. All of these finds on the Lake Mead Recreation area were turned over to Dr. Kring who in turn sent them to the Smithsonian as that had been in the agreement in order to get the permit to hunt on the Recreation area. We had hunted briefly at various spots just to see where they occurred. Jim Kriegh did not ask for the permit to be extended since the information that Dr. Kring needed had been verified. Once the press release came out from the University of Arizona in January 1998, anyone was free to hunt on the original BLM area and we enjoyed many hunts with many of you who became our good friends. Meeting all of you who did hunt with Jim Kriegh or who met him at the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show is what made him the happiest and made the find worthwhile to him. Jim was also pleased to have donated his time for the mapping and scientific information his find afforded the meteorite world. Twink Monrad __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Upheaval Dome
All: I just updated my web-site to include my report on explorations of the Upheaval Dome in Utah. http://ottawa-rasc.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Odale-Articles-UpheavalDome FYI Chuck __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD - Superbowl deals
Hi to all. I know many are getting ready for the big game, Im hoping for a Colts victory. I thought I would toss an offer out to you all. I have an awesome .31g Karoonda with museum provenance listed on ebay currently. From now until the end of the game, I will offer it to the first person who wants it for only $225 including shipping! Great deal for someone wanting more then just a speck, and with great provenance! Also, 15% off any ebay item currently listed on ebay, until the game is over if the sale is off ebay. First come basis. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Tucson super bowl
Anyone have any good suggestions on where to watch the superbowl in Tucson __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong)
Hi Shawn, I was referring to the UNESCO convention of 1970, which indeed is a different kettle of fish, than regional states or federal laws, like in the Lorton case. Whether landowner, landlord, lodger, finder, keeper is the owner. Nevertheless that UNESCO-thing is a more serious one, cause in case, it says what a owner is allowed to do with his property or not, and hence would be affect the free meteorite trade of collectors, scientists, nations. Furthermore the UNESCO-convention if applied on meteorite could lead also to stricter regional laws, cause the clercs, politicians or whoever could get the impression, that meteorites would be cultural items. (Look, China e.g. made laws for fossils, which vitually are making all fossils property of the state and if there is a private ownership, the owner is allowed only to sell to the state). And Schmitt is suggesting of the UNESCO convention automatically protecting ALL meteorites (of those 90 countries which had ratified, when he published his article). And that is simply not true - you have only to read the fulltext of the convention. Meteorites aren't mentioned at all, neither they seem to meet the definition of cultural heritage, given there. And the only case they are indeed protected by the UNESCO convention is: A) if they are part of a scientific collection B) if they are listed explicitely in the individual national catalogues of items of the cultural heritage, with each signing nation has to make. And, Schmitt fully forgets the UNIDROIT convention. It is very dangerous for most countries, to declare meteorites as heritage, and it would be a great disservice, if they would do so. Why? Here weg go: http://www.unidroit.org/English/conventions/1995culturalproperty/1995cultura lproperty-e.htm See? If meteorites are cultural heritage by means of the 1970 convention, then they would be also subject to the UNIDROIT convention. And then it can happen, that the day will come that Australia, Algeria, China, Oman, Argentina.. will knock on the door, to say: Give us our meteorites back. As they are doing already with artefacts, aboriginal stuff, with fossils, with art, with archaeological items ect. And then we would have to dissolve the great collections, especially in the meteorite poor countries. We would have to dissolve London, Vienna, Paris, New York, partially also the Smithonian collection... Because for the most meteorites from the last 200 years, they all simply have no proof, that they were once legally exported. Simple theoretical example: A meteorite shower, called Pultusk. The village museum of Pultusk hasn't any nice Pultusks. If UK would have meteorites in their heritage lists, the village museum could address quickly to the ministry, to make an affair of states out of the case. Pultusk - shortly after it felt, Mr.Krantz was travelling there, a mineral dealer, and hunted and bought stones from the locals, as many as he could get. Just like the meteorite dealers of our times, no difference. Krantz took them home to Bonn, Germany and sold them to quite all big collections of these times. The curator would have to rummage the archives of the London collection, and if he's lucky he will find an old invoice, or a budget notation, but a proof, that the Pultusks in the London collection were once legally removed from Poland or from Germany - he or she won't find? Why? Because before (and of course also after) the foofaraw with Australia and Canada began, no scientist, no curator, no dealer, no collector cared for export papers for meteorites - because nobody could have the idea, that once in future, papers for something like - and don't forget, we're taking about really whack objects, where still today almost nobody globally seen is interested in - one once would need papers! That is a problem, fully ignored, but nevertheless real. Therefore I think it's not so good, to spread that Schmitt article around. O.k. a normal curator will be well aware of the problem, but past showed, that it isn't granted that all are really normal Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Sonntag, 7. Februar 2010 21:34 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong) Martin/List Stated by Martin.. Hello Shawn, please don't use that article from Schmitt any longer, because it is incorrect and misleading. Here is the misleading article link http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M% 26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=0plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCR EEN_GIFclassic=YES Martin I am glad you think its misleading I guess when you read the article you also read the part where Schmitt wrote about General Comments on Find Ownership where he stated... The above illustrations indicate the
[meteorite-list] tucson day 4
Good morning list.Well 4 days are in the book and it's time to get ready to wrap up what will probably be my last show for a couple of years.It is raining here on this Sunday morn. Yesterday was another great day. It was sunny and 70 degree's! I met up with a few newbies I had not met with. Linton Rohr and Eric Fisler and his very nice family. Yesterday I bought 3 more new meteorites for the collection. I got another Sikhote-Alin from Mike Farmer. It is a super nice 200 gram piece. I even have a picture to prove I bought it. I got a 7 gram part slice of the new witness fall from Ecuador,DUALE that Mike Farmer found. And finally my biggest purchase of the show, a 32 gram full thick slice of Pena Blanca Springs aubrite I had been looking for a nice piece for years. We pretty much stayed around the inn suites all day till around 5 pm. We then went to dinner and on to the auction. There were about 80 auctions and some nice material but nothing to blow your nose at. I got the 2 items I wanted. A 14 gram slice of Park Forest and a 9 gram part slice of Nwa 3161. The really interesting item of the show was how Count Diero toke over the auction for Mike Blood. He showed what it really means to be a real auctioneer. Way to go Count! The show ended about 9:50 pm. We said our good byes and went home for the night. For me this was probsbly my best show. I come home with 11 new meteorites and $600. I pretty much stood my my guns,OOOPPPS! Sorry,such a touchy subject these day :) I bought and traded for what I really wanted. And a II thanks to Jim Strope. Tomorrow at home I'll have a wrap up from day 5 and start putting pics up on my website. It has really been a pleasure to meet so many nice people this year at one of the best shows ever.Greeting from rainy tucson and have a great day. Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! chicagometeorites.net/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] tucson day 4
I got another Sikhote-Alin from Mike Farmer. It is a super nice 200 gram piece. I even have a picture to prove I bought it. Prove it Steve! Send me a photo!! ;-) MJ Thumbed On My BlackBerry -Original Message- From: steve arnold stevenarnold60...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 07:41:47 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] tucson day 4 Good morning list.Well 4 days are in the book and it's time to get ready to wrap up what will probably be my last show for a couple of years.It is raining here on this Sunday morn. Yesterday was another great day. It was sunny and 70 degree's! I met up with a few newbies I had not met with. Linton Rohr and Eric Fisler and his very nice family. Yesterday I bought 3 more new meteorites for the collection. I got another Sikhote-Alin from Mike Farmer. It is a super nice 200 gram piece. I even have a picture to prove I bought it. I got a 7 gram part slice of the new witness fall from Ecuador,DUALE that Mike Farmer found. And finally my biggest purchase of the show, a 32 gram full thick slice of Pena Blanca Springs aubrite I had been looking for a nice piece for years. We pretty much stayed around the inn suites all day till around 5 pm. We then went to dinner and on to the auction. There were about 80 auctions and some nice material but nothing to blow your nose at. I got the 2 items I wanted. A 14 gram slice of Park Forest and a 9 gram part slice of Nwa 3161. The really interesting item of the show was how Count Diero toke over the auction for Mike Blood. He showed what it really means to be a real auctioneer. Way to go Count! The show ended about 9:50 pm. We said our good byes and went home for the night. For me this was probsbly my best show. I come home with 11 new meteorites and $600. I pretty much stood my my guns,OOOPPPS! Sorry,such a touchy subject these day :) I bought and traded for what I really wanted. And a II thanks to Jim Strope. Tomorrow at home I'll have a wrap up from day 5 and start putting pics up on my website. It has really been a pleasure to meet so many nice people this year at one of the best shows ever.Greeting from rainy tucson and have a great day. Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! chicagometeorites.net/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Mark Bostick?
Hello Everyone, Can somebody tell me, whatever happened to meteorite collector and dealer Mark Bostick? -Walter Branch _ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] funny commercial
Okay, so, http://www.spike.com/video/bud-light/3334612 Enjoy! Elizabeth __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] OT Fw: more interesting than a debate about firearms
Linton Rohr wrote: IMO, the 2010 gem show is considerably more interesting than a debate about firearms. Absolutely, Geoff! It's a damn shame to have this nonsense on the list during the big event of the year. Linton - off to the show... Quite true, except maybe for this type of gun: :-) :-) Potato Cannon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpAJOPzKK-M Test of my biggest potato cannon with 800 gram ammo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdFK5eVmZ3o Potato Gun Explosions at 250 mph! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpbtlK5E1QQ When potatoes are outlawed, we will use onions instead. Yours, Paul H. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] funny commercial
Elizabeth: Bud Light Planetarium??? Thanks, Larry Okay, so, http://www.spike.com/video/bud-light/3334612 Enjoy! Elizabeth __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] funny commercial
Yes, clearly the name is wrong... but there is a reason why I posted it to the list... Clear Skies! Elizabeth On Sun, 7 Feb 2010, lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu wrote: Elizabeth: Bud Light Planetarium??? Thanks, Larry Okay, so, http://www.spike.com/video/bud-light/3334612 Enjoy! Elizabeth __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Marketing Meteorites as Investments
Hi Folks, Someone with expertise in this area, please weigh in on this. It has always been my understanding that if a person offers a product or service and language is used that describes the product/service as an investment, then the securities and exchange laws come into play. If one offers an investment (be it gold, a market account, etc), then a can of legal worms is opened, correct? This is why we don't hear of meteorites being offered as investments.or is it? Just curious. Best regards and happy huntings, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer http://www.galactic-stone.com http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong)
Martin, I like your insight but to ignore or suggest what should be placed on the list even though it pertains to meteorites is wrong from this statement you made That is a problem, fully ignored, but nevertheless real. Therefore I think it's not so good, to spread that Schmitt article around. O.k. a normal curator will be well aware of the problem, but past showed, that it isn't granted that all are really normal http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=0plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_GIFclassic=YES Thank Shawn Alan [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong) Martin Altmann altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Feb 7 18:53:51 EST 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong) Next message: [meteorite-list] Dawn Journal - January 30, 2010 Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi Shawn, I was referring to the UNESCO convention of 1970, which indeed is a different kettle of fish, than regional states or federal laws, like in the Lorton case. Whether landowner, landlord, lodger, finder, keeper is the owner. Nevertheless that UNESCO-thing is a more serious one, cause in case, it says what a owner is allowed to do with his property or not, and hence would be affect the free meteorite trade of collectors, scientists, nations. Furthermore the UNESCO-convention if applied on meteorite could lead also to stricter regional laws, cause the clercs, politicians or whoever could get the impression, that meteorites would be cultural items. (Look, China e.g. made laws for fossils, which vitually are making all fossils property of the state and if there is a private ownership, the owner is allowed only to sell to the state). And Schmitt is suggesting of the UNESCO convention automatically protecting ALL meteorites (of those 90 countries which had ratified, when he published his article). And that is simply not true - you have only to read the fulltext of the convention. Meteorites aren't mentioned at all, neither they seem to meet the definition of cultural heritage, given there. And the only case they are indeed protected by the UNESCO convention is: A) if they are part of a scientific collection B) if they are listed explicitely in the individual national catalogues of items of the cultural heritage, with each signing nation has to make. And, Schmitt fully forgets the UNIDROIT convention. It is very dangerous for most countries, to declare meteorites as heritage, and it would be a great disservice, if they would do so. Why? Here weg go: http://www.unidroit.org/English/conventions/1995culturalproperty/1995cultura lproperty-e.htm See? If meteorites are cultural heritage by means of the 1970 convention, then they would be also subject to the UNIDROIT convention. And then it can happen, that the day will come that Australia, Algeria, China, Oman, Argentina.. will knock on the door, to say: Give us our meteorites back. As they are doing already with artefacts, aboriginal stuff, with fossils, with art, with archaeological items ect. And then we would have to dissolve the great collections, especially in the meteorite poor countries. We would have to dissolve London, Vienna, Paris, New York, partially also the Smithonian collection... Because for the most meteorites from the last 200 years, they all simply have no proof, that they were once legally exported. Simple theoretical example: A meteorite shower, called Pultusk. The village museum of Pultusk hasn't any nice Pultusks. If UK would have meteorites in their heritage lists, the village museum could address quickly to the ministry, to make an affair of states out of the case. Pultusk - shortly after it felt, Mr.Krantz was travelling there, a mineral dealer, and hunted and bought stones from the locals, as many as he could get. Just like the meteorite dealers of our times, no difference. Krantz took them home to Bonn, Germany and sold them to quite all big collections of these times. The curator would have to rummage the archives of the London collection, and if he's lucky he will find an old invoice, or a budget notation, but a proof, that the Pultusks in the London collection were once legally removed from Poland or from Germany - he or she won't find? Why? Because before (and of course also after) the foofaraw with Australia and Canada began, no scientist, no curator, no dealer, no collector cared for export papers for meteorites - because nobody could have the idea, that once in future, papers for something like - and don't forget, we're taking about really whack objects, where still today almost nobody globally seen is interested in - one once would need papers! That is a problem, fully ignored, but nevertheless real. Therefore I think it's not so good, to spread that
Re: [meteorite-list] Mark Bostick?
Hi Walter, Last I heard was that Mark had to pull out of meteorites to care for someone, an elderly parent or sibling maybe. Oh, by the way, when you mentioned your three year accident anniversary, I thought I'd tell you that before the accident, I bought a smooth oriented Sikhote-Alin from your collection. After the accident, I thought of sending it back to you, but instead I put it in my center desk drawer. Whenever I needed a pen I opened the drawer, saw the SA and thought about you and your daughter. I think we both had and raised our kids while on this List, and I remember discussion child rearing with you back at the turn of the century. Our daughters are about the same age, and if you and your daughter no longer need my daily drawer thoughts, I'd be happy to send the SA to your daughter to continue her meteorite collecting. Best, Martin On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net wrote: Hello Everyone, Can somebody tell me, whatever happened to meteorite collector and dealer Mark Bostick? -Walter Branch _ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mark Bostick?
I was the highest bidder on a postcard from him on eBay but I never received it, nor got a response from him when I inquired about it (July 2008). After I heard about his personal ordeal, I just wrote it off and hoped his life would get back to normalcy. I haven't heard anything since then. I hope he is well. Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dark Matter Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:43 PM To: Walter Branch Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mark Bostick? Hi Walter, Last I heard was that Mark had to pull out of meteorites to care for someone, an elderly parent or sibling maybe. Oh, by the way, when you mentioned your three year accident anniversary, I thought I'd tell you that before the accident, I bought a smooth oriented Sikhote-Alin from your collection. After the accident, I thought of sending it back to you, but instead I put it in my center desk drawer. Whenever I needed a pen I opened the drawer, saw the SA and thought about you and your daughter. I think we both had and raised our kids while on this List, and I remember discussion child rearing with you back at the turn of the century. Our daughters are about the same age, and if you and your daughter no longer need my daily drawer thoughts, I'd be happy to send the SA to your daughter to continue her meteorite collecting. Best, Martin On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net wrote: Hello Everyone, Can somebody tell me, whatever happened to meteorite collector and dealer Mark Bostick? -Walter Branch _ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2671 - Release Date: 02/07/10 00:22:00 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Gold Basin strewn field correction on a post byCarl Esparza
Hi Twink! Thanks for the detailed explanation. I hope you had (or are having) a great Tucson show. Bob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Larry Twink Monrad Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:58 PM To: cdtuc...@cox.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Gold Basin strewn field correction on a post byCarl Esparza No Carl, you do not have this right at all. What I told you the other night is that Jim Kriegh, John Blennert and I turned in all of our first several hundred specimens to Dr. Kring at the U of A. These were found on BLM land where the field was discovered while hunting for gold. Dolores Hill and Dr. Kring went through these one by one, bagged and labeled them, as Dolores can attest. Twenty per cent of these went to the Smithsonian. The rest were eventually given back to us by Dr. Kring except for a few that the University needed for classification. John, Jim and I also donated several to the University of Arizona Mineral Museum which they still own. As all of us discovered different meteorites in the same strewn field, they were also examined, classified and returned to us except for the slices kept by the U of A for classification. It was a year later that Dr. Kring obtained for Jim Kriegh a permit to hunt on the Lake Mead Recreation Area and Jim, John and I hunted there for a while and were honored to do so. Dr. Kring was interested in knowing whether the strewn field covered the Recreation Area. When we found Gold Basin meteorites at various points even overlooking Lake Mead and walked over lots of flat land and into canyons on both sides of the road into the Recreation area it was obvious that yes, the field extended to Lake Mead. All of these finds on the Lake Mead Recreation area were turned over to Dr. Kring who in turn sent them to the Smithsonian as that had been in the agreement in order to get the permit to hunt on the Recreation area. We had hunted briefly at various spots just to see where they occurred. Jim Kriegh did not ask for the permit to be extended since the information that Dr. Kring needed had been verified. Once the press release came out from the University of Arizona in January 1998, anyone was free to hunt on the original BLM area and we enjoyed many hunts with many of you who became our good friends. Meeting all of you who did hunt with Jim Kriegh or who met him at the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show is what made him the happiest and made the find worthwhile to him. Jim was also pleased to have donated his time for the mapping and scientific information his find afforded the meteorite world. Twink Monrad __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2671 - Release Date: 02/07/10 00:22:00 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Survival in the first hours of the Cenozoic.
Robertson D. S., M. C. McKenna, B. T. Owen, S. Hope and J. A. Lillegraven, 2004, Survival in the first hours of the Cenozoic. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 116, no. 5/6, pp. 760-768. Abstract at: http://bulletin.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/116/5-6/760 PDF file at: http://webh01.ua.ac.be/funmorph/raoul/macroevolutie/Robertson2004.pdf Yours, Paul H. P. S. Who Dat ?? We Dat !!! :-) :-) Saints roll, beat Colts 31-17 http://www.indystar.com/article/20100207/SPORTS03/100207014/Manning-s-magic-ends New Orleans 31, Indianapolis 17 http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/game/Saints_Colts/2010/02/07 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mark Bostick?
Hi Bob, Walt and List, I bought 2 postcards and some Willamette shale fragments from Mark about a year ago. Everything went as planned and I was happy with my end. I haven't dealt with him since, nor heard from him. Best regards, MikeG On 2/7/10, Bob Loeffler b...@peaktopeak.com wrote: I was the highest bidder on a postcard from him on eBay but I never received it, nor got a response from him when I inquired about it (July 2008). After I heard about his personal ordeal, I just wrote it off and hoped his life would get back to normalcy. I haven't heard anything since then. I hope he is well. Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dark Matter Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:43 PM To: Walter Branch Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mark Bostick? Hi Walter, Last I heard was that Mark had to pull out of meteorites to care for someone, an elderly parent or sibling maybe. Oh, by the way, when you mentioned your three year accident anniversary, I thought I'd tell you that before the accident, I bought a smooth oriented Sikhote-Alin from your collection. After the accident, I thought of sending it back to you, but instead I put it in my center desk drawer. Whenever I needed a pen I opened the drawer, saw the SA and thought about you and your daughter. I think we both had and raised our kids while on this List, and I remember discussion child rearing with you back at the turn of the century. Our daughters are about the same age, and if you and your daughter no longer need my daily drawer thoughts, I'd be happy to send the SA to your daughter to continue her meteorite collecting. Best, Martin On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net wrote: Hello Everyone, Can somebody tell me, whatever happened to meteorite collector and dealer Mark Bostick? -Walter Branch _ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2671 - Release Date: 02/07/10 00:22:00 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Mike Gilmer http://www.galactic-stone.com http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] 400,749 views, Thank You!
Hi List, Over the last ten days or so there have been so many people that thanked me for putting up meteorite related videos on youtube. No. Thank you for watching! Thanks to everyone who (over the last two years) has clicked on one of my youtube videos! Because of you my videos have climbed to over 400,000 views and 298 subscribers. In case anyone cares, here are the total views and subscribers for for both of my channels - MrMeteorite and Meteorfight. Channel Name: Views Subscribers MrMeteorite: 26,439 21 Meteorfright:374,310 277 Total: 400,749 298 -- Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u#p/u __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 400,749 views, Thank You!
Great Job Ruben! Keep it up. Regards, Eric On 2/7/2010 8:49 PM, Ruben Garcia wrote: Hi List, Over the last ten days or so there have been so many people that thanked me for putting up meteorite related videos on youtube. No. Thank you for watching! Thanks to everyone who (over the last two years) has clicked on one of my youtube videos! Because of you my videos have climbed to over 400,000 views and 298 subscribers. In case anyone cares, here are the total views and subscribers for for both of my channels - MrMeteorite and Meteorfight. Channel Name: Views Subscribers MrMeteorite: 26,439 21 Meteorfright:374,310 277 Total: 400,749 298 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Upheaval Dome
Very interesting, Chuck. Thanks for sharing. I made a visit to the crater this past summer and found it fascinating. The Canyonlands National Park staff still refers to the creation of the crater as under debate, but I was rooting for the impact theory. So, is it settled then? Sounds like it. Oh. Nice aerial photos, as well! Linton - Original Message - From: Charles O'Dale codale0...@rogers.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 2:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Upheaval Dome All: I just updated my web-site to include my report on explorations of the Upheaval Dome in Utah. http://ottawa-rasc.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Odale-Articles-UpheavalDome FYI Chuck __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2673 - Release Date: 02/07/10 07:22:00 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] tucson day 4
Safe travells Steve, and all for that matter! It was a nice show - and great to meet everyone! I picked up some great specimens and books. I'm looking forward to next year (another week or so for the locals though...). Clear skies, Mark B. Vail, AZ - Original Message From: mich...@rocksfromspace.org mich...@rocksfromspace.org To: Steve Arnold stevenarnold60...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sun, February 7, 2010 6:02:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] tucson day 4 I got another Sikhote-Alin from Mike Farmer. It is a super nice 200 gram piece. I even have a picture to prove I bought it. Prove it Steve! Send me a photo!! ;-) MJ Thumbed On My BlackBerry -Original Message- From: steve arnold stevenarnold60...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 07:41:47 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] tucson day 4 Good morning list.Well 4 days are in the book and it's time to get ready to wrap up what will probably be my last show for a couple of years.It is raining here on this Sunday morn. Yesterday was another great day. It was sunny and 70 degree's! I met up with a few newbies I had not met with. Linton Rohr and Eric Fisler and his very nice family. Yesterday I bought 3 more new meteorites for the collection. I got another Sikhote-Alin from Mike Farmer. It is a super nice 200 gram piece. I even have a picture to prove I bought it. I got a 7 gram part slice of the new witness fall from Ecuador,DUALE that Mike Farmer found. And finally my biggest purchase of the show, a 32 gram full thick slice of Pena Blanca Springs aubrite I had been looking for a nice piece for years. We pretty much stayed around the inn suites all day till around 5 pm. We then went to dinner and on to the auction. There were about 80 auctions and some nice material but nothing to blow your nose at. I got the 2 items I wanted. A 14 gram slice of Park Forest and a 9 gram part slice of Nwa 3161. The really interesting item of the show was how Count Diero toke over the auction for Mike Blood. He showed what it really means to be a real auctioneer. Way to go Count! The show ended about 9:50 pm. We said our good byes and went home for the night. For me this was probsbly my best show. I come home with 11 new meteorites and $600. I pretty much stood my my guns,OOOPPPS! Sorry,such a touchy subject these day :) I bought and traded for what I really wanted. And a II thanks to Jim Strope. Tomorrow at home I'll have a wrap up from day 5 and start putting pics up on my website. It has really been a pleasure to meet so many nice people this year at one of the best shows ever.Greeting from rainy tucson and have a great day. Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! chicagometeorites.net/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
