Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 15

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry for the late reply - it's spring break, and the rocks don't find
themselves.

It's hard to disagree with *common sense*.  Unfortunately, Mark has already
made at least a few pretty bad *common sense* pairing mistakes that I'm
pretty sure have put misrepresented material into circulation.  Like this
one <https://i.imgur.com/dqkqk05.jpg>, where Mark decided that an
unclassified ~CV3 was paired with another dealer's published CR2.  And this
one <https://i.imgur.com/A0y83Tj.jpg>, where Mark decided that a CV3 was
paired with what sure looks to me like an unpaired carbonaceous chondrite.
More on these meteorites below.

Mark mentioned some of our past conversations.  I agree: they were pretty
crazy, but I wouldn't say it's because of anything *I* said.  I guess it's
a good thing I saved them all, and can share them with you.

Let's get right to it.

In mid-January of 2023, I let John Humphreys know, in private, that some
“Erg Chech 003" "CR2” slices he was offering on eBay looked to be swapped
with a ~CV3.  John's one of the few dealers I would trust to handle an
issue like that honestly and quickly.  Given the texture of the stone and
its abundant CAIs, it couldn't have been a CR2.  Not possible.  A photo of
the material speaks for itself <https://i.imgur.com/dqkqk05.jpg>: a real
specimen of Erg Chech 003 is on the right.  To his credit, John immediately
pulled the slices he'd listed.  I had no way of knowing it at the
time, but Mark
had sold John this unclassified meteorite as the published CR2 Erg Chech 003
<https://imgur.com/a/47qmQK7>.  Unfortunately, by the time I'd messaged
John about the problem, some amount of the ~CV3 had already been sold on by
a few of the dealers who routinely distribute Mark's material, and you can
still find some of those unclassified ~CV3 slices in circulation as CR2s /
Erg Chech 003
<https://5dhealingcrystals.com/products/pallasite-meteorite-erg-chech>.
Not great.

Had I said nothing, there's no reason to think anyone else would have
caught the misrepresented material, and the rest of that ~CV3 would have
been sold as the CR2.  Mark keeps telling people I'm often wrong, but...he
admitted to the problem in private and refunded John
<https://i.imgur.com/lUWiP9q.png>.  Hm.

I would add: I don't blame John Humphreys for what happened with the fake
Erg Chech 003.  It's not reasonable to expect everyone to be able to ID a
carbonaceous chondrite by sight, especially based on just a few small
slices.  Someone classifying and selling new, unclassified meteorites has a
greater burden of responsibility than someone who thinks they're buying a
documented meteorite from a reputable dealer.  Ultimately, Mark was the one
who put those specimens into circulation labelled as something they
weren't.  It should have been safe for John to trust him.

This "Erg Chech 003" ~CV3 is also a perfect example of Mark's ‘*rules for
thee but not for me*.’  Mark argued in his email that Benzaki Mohamed's use
of Jason Whitcomb's NWA number was different from Taza, Jikharra 001, etc.,
because Whitcomb's CK was "*probably a single person classification with
low total known weight. Anyone with common sense can see that this is
different from huge finds*."

Well, let's look up Erg Chech 003
<https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=74840>.  How many tonnes
is it?  It has a TKW of...just 1.1 kilograms.  Oh.  That's...really small.
And it's owned by...two dealers who often collaborate with each other.  Not
Mark.  So...not only did Mark use someone else's DCA number from a small
find -- he screwed up the pairing when doing it and put misidentified
material into circulation.  ...I guess "common sense" rules only apply to
everyone else.  Not Mark Lyon.

Let's turn the clock back to January 2023 for a moment.  When I first
notified John about the issue with the fake Erg Chech 003, I had no idea
the material had even come from Mark.  How could I?  Erg Chech 003 wasn't
even "his classification."  I didn't know it yet, but John had forwarded my
messages to Mark, letting him know I was the one who had raised the issue.

I'd never put two and two together before, but, after reviewing our
correspondence, it's like a switch flipped within about a week of my
messaging John about the issue.  As far as I can tell, Mark didn't like the
idea of being 'corrected,' and that's when he decided that he didn't like
*me*.  After a few unwarranted, aggressive interactions on Facebook
that same month, Mark went after me in private.  It was *weird*.  He called
me a bunch of names, and a liar a dozen or so times.  I responded by simply
calling out his empty insults and asking him what he thought I'd lied
about.  He never did give me an answer.  After a few days of that strange
back and forth, I think it became apparent to him that he wouldn't get a
rise out of me.  He cracked and wrote this:

https://imgur.com/a/mVVnmF

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 15

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Hello Jason,

As long as material is described accurately, I don't care what you do.  I
only butted in here because it annoyed me to see you attacking a Moroccan
seller who is probably selling accurately paired material, while you’re
openly doing the same thing with other meteorites.  Glass house + throwing
stones, not cool.

I'm saying that it *should* be fine for you to buy and sell HaH 346 and
Jikharra 001 as those meteorites as long as you've accurately IDd them.
But not if you're going to tell other people they can't do the same thing.
That's the rub.

Your points -

1 & 4)  Why does it matter where you got your HaH 346?  It didn't matter to
you where Benzaki got his NWA 15758.

Your posts didn't address the origin of Benzaki Mohamed's CK in any way, or
whether or not his material is paired with NWA 15758.  Based on everything
you've shared here, you don't know or care about whether or not Benzaki's
material is paired with yours.  Your concern is "your NWA number" and
protecting that investment. I can empathize with that, but your #1 and #4
bullet points don't agree with your actions:

Did you ask Benzaki where his material had come from before you sent that
public complaint?  No.  Did you confirm that it came from a different
finder, the same place, or a different place?  No.  When it came to
'protecting  your NWA number,' none of that mattered.  Sure, the onus is on
him to show it's paired, but you didn't give him a chance.

You were preemptively trying to avoid any possible / probable pairings to
'protect your investment.'  I understand your motivations, and think many
dealers would take your side, but it's ethically questionable, at best.
TKWs affect meteorite values, and if you're aware of significant pairings,
(main) masses, etc., and you hide that information from your customers,
that's dishonest.  Sure, new things can turn up, but what if a dealer sold
you a "main mass," and you later found out that they were aware of a larger
specimen all along?  Would you care?  Would you be annoyed?  What would you
think?

...Is what you're doing here any different?

You asked me what I would do.  I sold some NWA 15364 (nakhlite) a while
back.  When describing it, I said: "Northwest Africa 15364 is one member of
a large pairing group including, but not limited to: Hassi Messaoud 001,
Bir Moghrein 002, Qued Mya 005, NWA 13368, NWA 13669, NWA 13764, NWA 13786,
NWA 14369, NWA 14962, and NWA 15200.  The published total known weight of
these finds is approximately 4.3 kilograms.  It is probable that additional
pairings will be approved in the future."  That was ~as accurate as I could
describe the meteorite's pairings and TKW, to the best of my ability.  I
spent a bit of time looking at the analytical data for each of them in the
Bulletin, finding photos of each of them, and trying to make sure I got it
right.  I guess I could have omitted mentioning the pairings, to make my
pieces seem more rare?  Would that be honest?  I'd say no.  But a few
dealers are definitely doing that with some of those pairings...

It hurts collectors.  Last week, I saw someone comment on a Facebook post,
excited because he'd purchased multiple pieces of the above nakhlites.  He
thought he'd bought pieces of different meteorites, not pieces of paired
stones.  He seemed disappointed to learn otherwise.  It's great for the
sellers, not so good for collectors.  And it's not a new issue.  The first
similar instance I remember was in an ancient met-list thread back in the
early 2000s, when someone tried to sell a meteorite paired with NWA 869.
NWA...900ish, if I recall...  It's probably been 15 years.  Hmmm...

http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com/2004/nov/0989.html

http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com/2004/nov/1120.html

http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com/2004/nov/0961.html

My email doesn't go back that far, had to find it on Google.  NWA 900 is
another 869 pairing, but the problem was NWA 904.

I've never really sat down and thought about it, but a significant part of
the NWA market is based on dealers pleading or feigning ignorance about
pairings and TKWs to collectors.  It's ~accepted conduct, and it’s
totally unethical.  Dean Bessey called it out back in 2004, and nothing's
changed.

2 & 5)  We're talking about scientific descriptions of rocks.  Little rocks
are rocks.  Big rocks are rocks.  Size doesn't matter.

Unfortunately, larger finds and falls are widely distributed, tend to get
less scrutiny, and get mislabeled often.  Those three big meteorites you're
using as examples are some of the biggest problems, because they're such
large finds.  Sure, it can be fun: I couldn't tell you the number of
interesting things I've pulled out of lots of "NWA 869" over the years.
And you should keep an eye out for the fresh L3s in shipments of HaH 346.
Many of them still have skid-marks, and there's nothing quite like a W0
type-3.  If you're on Facebook, you've probably seen the multi-k

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 15

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Hello Jason,
To be consistent, you should remove the HaH 346 and NWA 869 specimens you
have listed for sale on your website.  Those classifications were submitted
by other dealers; your stones are unclassified individuals from DCAs with
no evidence of their find locations, etc.
On your "featured" page, you also have a specimen listed as a "likely
Jakharra 001 Pairing."  Similar issues aside, relying on that standard, it
should be okay for Benzaki Mohamed to call his specimens "likely NWA 15758
pairings."
Regards,
Jason

On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 7:09 AM humboldt bay jay via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Thank you Benzaki Mohamed for swiftly reaching out to me.  I appreciate
> your attention to this matter.  All is good.
> Best regards to everyone,
> Jason Whitcomb
>
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 10:29 PM <
> meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
>> Send Meteorite-list mailing list submissions to
>> meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> meteorite-list-ow...@meteoritecentral.com
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Meteorite-list digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>1. Meteorite Picture of the Day (p...@tucsonmeteorites.com)
>>2. Re: Very sad news (Ruben Garcia)
>>3. Re: Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 14 (humboldt bay jay)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 00:35:54 -0700
>> From: 
>> To: 
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
>> Message-ID: 
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>>
>> Thursday, Mar 14 2024 Meteorite Picture of the Day: HAH 346
>>
>> Contributed by: J?r?me de Creymer
>>
>> http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=03/14/2024
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:17:06 -0700
>> From: Ruben Garcia 
>> To: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de
>> Cc: Meteorite Mailing List 
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Very sad news
>> Message-ID:
>> > jxhjti60uojwdgvdoreuf4jfjd7paim...@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi Bernd,
>>
>> I've know John for a very long time. This is very sad indeed. Thank you
>> for
>> posting this.
>>
>> Ruben Garcia
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 4:03?PM bernd.pauli--- via Meteorite-list <
>> meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear List,
>> >
>> > It is my sad duty to inform you that John Blennert has passed away :-(
>> >
>> > John, rest in peace!
>> >
>> > Bernd
>> > __
>> > Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> https://pairlist2.pair.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/attachments/20240313/55acab68/attachment-0001.htm
>> >
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 22:53:43 -0700
>> From: humboldt bay jay 
>> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 14
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> caat9en4eebof8m_4p5anuoo9wo9+_qqv1e9-1mbjdnj6yvh...@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Benzaki Mohamed,
>> Since you have never reached out to me about my classification, Nwa 15758
>> CK6, I politely request that you do not use this name. I invested time and
>> resources into having it analyzed and if you wish to sell your material as
>> a named meteorite I suggest you do the same. Thank you in advance.
>> Jason
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 10:29?PM <
>> meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Send Meteorite-list mailing list submissions to
>> > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>>

[meteorite-list] Meteorites for Sale

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello List,
This is a black Friday sale!  Please inquire many sizes available and I
will be happy to send you pictures.

Beautiful unclassified chondrites, all showing features of orientation.
$0.25/gram.

NWA 16102- (1 of 21) meteorites classified as an LL6- melt breccia.
Beautiful matrix.  $1/per gram.

World class eucrite melt!  NWA 14016. Most beautiful eucrite I have ever
seen.  $1.5/gram.

Thanks, and if you have any questions please let me know.

Jason Phillips
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[meteorite-list] Meteorites for Sale

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello Everyone,
I have a few, some very unique, pieces for sale.  If you have any questions
or would like pictures please let me know.

Thanks,
Jason Phillips

Available for your collection:
- Quitovac, Mexico complete stone 1299 gram- $1.15/gram
- Quitovac, Mexico complete 49.1 gram slice- $1.50/gram
- El Milhas 001 lunar slice 24.7 grams.  Red crystal visible in a crack.
$35/gram.
- Esquel 1.45 grams. $75/total
- Malvern Lake with 4 labels 18.3 grams  $9/gram
- Bechar 010 lunar fragments up to 3 grams  $10/gram (yes lunar for $10!)
- NWA 14370 Eucrite several sizes $1.25/gram
-  Taoudenni Diogenite great black crystal.  68.1 grams. $3/gram, others
available.
- NWA 11953 503 gram Eucrite endcut.  $1.60/gram
- NWA 11721 R3 polished slice 77 grams $3/gram
NWA 11721 R3 complete stone 823 grams $1.70/gram. Other sizes available.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Another in the curious tektite series

[jason utas via Meteorite-list]

Those are skin splits, not contacts.  Its surface had cooled to form a
skin, interior was still molten / plastic.  See Nininger & Huss (1967):

https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.157.3784.61

http://www.tektites.co.uk/stretch.html



On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 9:19 AM Thomas Harris iMac via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> I always enjoy the irregular shapes in tektites because the standard
> dumbbells, teardrops and spheroids are exactly that, standard.
>
> This is a 5 cm irregular or fragment-form Australasian tektite from Viet
> Nam with what appears to have smeared indentations from low speed
> contact(s), presumedly with other equally soft-skinned tektites.  This is
> problematic because the through-body re-heating above glass temperature and
> plastic deformation don’t happen with aerodynamic heating and ablation.  At
> the very least the skin of this tektite seems to have been reheated after
> solidification, retaining fine surface texture outside of the smear
> channels.  If this is ascent-phase after solidification, that is a large
> displacement from the source location for collision with multiple other
> tektites.  If this is descent-phase, why are tektites on converging
> trajectories after the better part of an hour or more to solidify before
> reentry?
>
> The highly ‘platy' coarse morphology relative to any spheroidal protomorph
> makes the formative process quite puzzling.
>
> When the Indochina region is considered as probable source for this distal
> impact ejecta glass, it directly disagrees with a first principles
> suborbital analysis of ablated tektites, which shows the source region must
> like across eastern North America per Harris (2022) and Davias, Harris
> (2022).
>
> https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FqenhEGuGrY
>
>
> Thomas “Tim” Harris
> Email: thsharr...@icloud.com
> Engineering Scientist
>
> Brooklyn NY USA
> 718 344 6016
>
> Web:
> Google Scholar T. H. S. Harris
> 
> Research Gate 
>
>
> Cintos.org  Survey: US LiDAR
> by M. E. Davias
> https://cbaysurvey.cintos.org
>
>
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Times Magazine 20 Year Anniversary Issue

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello Jim and Paul!
Congratulations on this major accomplishment.  No meteorite editorial has
made it even half this time, thank you both for the wonderful content and
the labor of love this magazine is!

Take Care,
Jason

On Sun, May 15, 2022, 11:37 PM Paul Harris via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> The May issue of Meteorite Times is now up.  It's hard to believe that
> this is our 20 year anniversary issue.  Our first issue was in April
> 2002 back when Meteorite Times was monthly. We'd like to give a special
> thank you to all of the writers over the years who have contributed
> articles to Meteorite Times. And a special thank you to Martin Horejsi,
> James Tobin, John Kashuba, and Mitch Noda for their continued article
> support.
>
> With the May issue we have a new web hosting company providing better
> performance and as our old template was not being supported anymore I
> have created a new template using Elementor with an updated look but
> same layout functionality. If anyone notices any errors or strange
> behavior please contact me off list.
>
> https://www.meteorite-times.com/
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Paul and Jim
>
> __
> RARE CANYON DIABLO METEORITE
> Bonhams Natural History auction on May 17 offers 50+ lots of stellar
> planetary meteorite specimens, including a complete Canyon Diablo example
> with superb regmaglypts. Browse the auction and register to bid online.
> Link:  https://www.bonhams.com/auction/27482/lot/3386/
>
> __
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RARE CANYON DIABLO METEORITE
Bonhams Natural History auction on May 17 offers 50+ lots of stellar planetary 
meteorite specimens, including a complete Canyon Diablo example with superb 
regmaglypts. Browse the auction and register to bid online.
Link:  https://www.bonhams.com/auction/27482/lot/3386/

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[meteorite-list] Looking for Libyan Desert Glass

[Jason Herrin via Meteorite-list]

Hi all,

We are looking for a couple of small, ugly pieces of Libyan desert glass
with reasonable documentation for scientific investigation. No fakes please.

Thanks,
Jason Herrin
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[meteorite-list] ISO polymict or metal-rich ureilites

[Jason Herrin via Meteorite-list]

Hi all,

We are looking for a few small slices of polymict ureilites and/or
ureilites containing abundant metal or any amount of sulfides. We have a
slight preference for more recent finds (5-digit NWA's and unnamed), some
of which might not yet be recognized as polymict.

Thank you and happy collecting,
Jason Herrin
jasonscotther...@gmail.com
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EXTREMELY RARE MARTIAN AND LUNAR MAIN MASS METEORITES
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/27190/
Coming to auction in Bonhams’ Meteorites Online sale.  Browse 90+ lots of 
superb planetary meteorite specimens & impact memorabilia, including rare main 
mass Martian and Lunar meteorites.

Bid online May 18-28 at Bonhams : Meteorites Online
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/27190/
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[meteorite-list] ISO Ivory Coast tektites

[Jason Herrin via Meteorite-list]

Hi all,

We are currently looking for Ivory Coast tektites to purchase. Please
contact me if you have some "legit" specimens for sale.

We are looking for some particular textural characteristics for study, so
macro and enev backlit (lightbox) photos are appreciated.

Thank you,
Jason Herrin




*Location:  Singapore (GMT+08:00)Email: jasonscotther...@gmail.com
Handy: +65 91788069*
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[meteorite-list] Ad: Saratov slices with weird inclusion

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello Everyone,

AD: Crazy Saratov Inclusion

Saratov is a really interesting 102 year old fall, but after cutting a
thick slice, I purchased from Allan Lang almost 20 years ago, I found
something that makes it even better.  We went through all the research and
we were not able to find anywhere that talks about these "Howardite looking
inclusions".  I can't say what they are, but they are really interesting!
I have a few slices with this crazy inclusion to sell and they are
$9/gram.  I also have a few small slices without the inclusion for
$7/gram.  If you have any questions please let me know.

Jason Phillips
Rocks from Heaven Collection
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Re: [meteorite-list] Modern Burnishing

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

The photo of Haig shows concave depressions, not bulbous lumps. It’s not
good photo perspective.

The closest visual match to this stone would be something like Patos de
Minas (the octahedrite), but comparing a relatively fresh desert stone with
fusion crust — to a fissured, decomposing iron from a much more wet climate
doesn’t make sense.

Consensus when this NWA surfaced on Facebook was that it was a broken
oriented stone, ‘creatively’ altered to disguise the damage.

Without a real forensic assessment, I would not feel at all comfortable
calling it natural.  It may technically be “art.”  I don’t think the
bidders in these auctions know or care either way.

Jason

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:42 PM Paul Gessler via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Want everyone's opinion / on this highly unusual morphology.
> I don't doubt it is a real meteorite at all just that one side looks
> altered
> or is HUGELY UNIQUE
> Christies is currently selling it and gives a cryptic explanation for its
> shape as "Modern burnishing"
> What the hell does that mean exactly?
> they also mention it could be naturally ventifacted.???
>
> Either way I have never seen anything quite like it in the meteorite world.
>
> Anyone else have an explanation ... please chime in on this.
>
>
> https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/deep-impact-lunar-rare-meteorites/evoking-sculpture-ken-price-exotic-meteorite-morphology-nwa-13203-38/82821
>
> Thanks
> Paul Gessler
>
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[meteorite-list] AD: Saratov Specimens

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello Meteorite Efficietados,

For Sale:

Saratov, Russia Synonyms: Belaya Gora, Donguz, Saratow

Fall: September 6, 1918
Coordinates: 52°33'N, 46°33'E
Chondrite, type L4

Saratov is one of the most underrated falls, having landed on earth a
little over a century ago.  This fall occurred on September 6, 1918, at
15:00 hours UT.  A brilliant fireball appeared over Ryazan, Russia.
Seconds later many atmospheric detonations were heard throughout the
surrounding countryside. Startled by a bright flash, peasants all over the
northern area of Saratov Oblast looked up to what appeared to be a group of
fireballs to the west in a shallow arc. The sighting was followed by what
was described as “a powerful roar”, perceived by some as the Last
Judgement.  Several stones totaling 328 kg were recovered near Belaya Gora
and Donguz.

The 2492 gram and 360 gram specimens came from Wayne Walton collection,
famous NASA researcher who worked with the lunar rocks from the Apollo 11
and 14 missions.  Both of these specimens have hand painted collection
numbers.

The second 360 gram piece is from the collection of Allan Lang.  This
specimen is a beautifully fusion crusted thick slice.

Numerous research articles have been done with Saratov centered around
nobel gases, chondrule porosity, shock metamorphism, and several other
features of this very interesting meteorite.

Price for the large specimen is $2.50/gram and the two smaller specimens
are $3.50/gram.  Please contact me for pictures or if you have any
questions.


Thanks,

Jason Phillips

Rocks from Heaven Collection
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[meteorite-list] Wanted: Buying Collections

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello Everyone,
I am interested in purchasing a collection, if your desire for everything
meteorites has faded and you are thinking of getting out of the hobby
please let me know and we can talk.

Thanks,
Jason Phillips
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Adam,
Since you keep suggesting that it was Greg's doing, and not yours...

"The Hupé Collection" self-paired a medium and a fine octahedrite.
Different bandwidths, different structures, different types of
inclusions.  One was a fresh, sculpted, fusion-crusted iron.  The
other was a round, weathered lump.  The photos on ebay were enough to
tell they were different.  "The Hupé Collection" said they were the
same.

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=17885

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=33524

These mistakes are surfacing on the POD, from well known collectors who
*trusted you.*  With "Hupé Collection" labels that are *wrong.*

That is indefensible.

You never even reached out to Bernd and the other buyers to let them
know of the mistake, after you knew of it?  Or did Bernd miss your
email?

In response, you're "accusing me" of...making 100% certain that my
samples were what they were, via SEM.  Most of the material that I
didn't keep went to labs, and they were presumably grateful to get NWA
7034 at less than a third of what other sellers were charging.

None of my material was misrepresented.  Not one milligram.

Pointing out that I *got it right* isn't exactly a good rebuttal.
Especially when you're okay with other scientists doing nothing more
than *eyeballing* your own stones to claim they're paired.  I
literally did more to verify my NWA 7034 than you did to verify your
NWA 1110.

Oh, and the Nom. Com. essentially did away with type specimen
requirements for paired DCA meteorites some time ago.

Read the rules.  Section 7.1 (g).

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/docs/nc-guidelines.pdf

If you want to get a new piece of [anything paired] approved, all you
need is data.  No type specimen is required.

You say that self-pairing is bad.  I point out that you messed it up.
In response, you point out that I paired some material correctly, as
though it's somehow the same or worse.  And you push "rules" that
no one follows -- and that don't even exist.

It's still -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

Jason


On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 7:30 PM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
> Spoken by a true pioneer in self-pairing and piggy-backing,
>
> Anybody for any self-paired and piggy-backed Black Beauty?
>
>
>
>
> On 6/25/2018 1:40 AM, Jason Utas via Meteorite-list wrote:
>
> Please note that the slice pictured is NWA 3200, not NWA 860. Someone made a
> mistake and “self-paired” two completely different iron meteorites.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 1:00 AM Paul Swartz via Meteorite-list
>  wrote:
>>
>> Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: NWA 860
>>
>> Contributed by: Bernd Pauli
>>
>> http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=06/24/2018
>> __
>>
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>> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
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>> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
>
> __
>
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>
>
>
> __
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Please note that the slice pictured is NWA 3200, not NWA 860. Someone made
a mistake and “self-paired” two completely different iron meteorites.

Jason


On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 1:00 AM Paul Swartz via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: NWA 860
>
> Contributed by: Bernd Pauli
>
> http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=06/24/2018
> __
>
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[meteorite-list] AD - Norton County, Alt Bela, Potter, Old Woman, Abbot, Zaragoza, Belmont, Pampa & more! eBay Listings Ending soon! The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection

[Jason Baker via Meteorite-list]

Good Afternoon All!

We are having an end of the month blowout on some hard to find Meteorites from 
the Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection!  These are NAMED meteorites, not 
unclassified!

These have rarely been available online before and will be ending, sold and 
then gone forever!  Don’t wait, check it out and pick up some great deals.  
Make an offer, you never know how generous Dr. Piatek may be feeling!  They all 
gotta go!

eBay - http://stores.ebay.com/jaypiatekmeteoritecollection

For example:  Bellsbank, Braunau, Ingella Station, Willamette, Norton County, 
Pinon, Old Woman, Salaices, Bonita Springs, Lost Creek, Shergotty, Thunda, Dho 
700, Bendego, Sandia Mountains, Zaragoza, Elenovka, Whitecourt, Melrose, Caddo 
County, Zagora, Sombrerete, Abbott, Ellis County, Alt Bela, Ybbsitz, Zacatecas, 
Grady, Roy, Yilmia, Ute Creek, Valle de Allende, Sacramento Mountains, Beaver 
Harrison, Whitecourt, Chico, Ladder Creek, Bruderheim, Spade, Wells, Happy 
Canyon, Wagon Mound and many many more!

For up-to-date listings at: - 
http://stores.ebay.com/jaypiatekmeteoritecollection

Please hurry, once they’re gone, it’s gone!

Best Regards,

Jason S. Baker
Collection Curator
Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection

Also Find Our Group on Facebook!  -
Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection  - 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/325877447578318/

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[meteorite-list] price of tektites?

[Jason Herrin via Meteorite-list]

Hi all,



We are looking for somebody with expertise in valuation of large (>1kg)
tektite specimens.



Thanks,

Jason Herrin
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[meteorite-list] AD: Quitovac, Mexico

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Happy New Year Everyone,

I have a new meteorite to offer to our wonderful collecting community.
Quitovac, Mexico was found by gold hunters while metal detecting, with
some of the stones being found 12 inches below the surface.  Most all
of the specimens retain a beautiful crust with some showing flight
features.  There is only one individual for sale, the endcut main
mass, two crusted fragments, and some slices.  Some of the slices show
more weathering and are a darker color matrix (as seen in picture 3),
but all show fresh metal.

Price:
Individual/Crusted Fragments: $3/gram
Endcuts: $2.50/gram
Slices: $3-$3.50/gram
Weathered fragments with no crust: $2/gram


Individual and Crusted Fragments:
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Quitovacinduals_zpscu7biubo.jpg

Endcut Main Mass:
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Quitovacmainmass_zpspsk7ql7v.jpg

Slices:
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Quitovacslice_zpsgezoxqjp.jpg

Thanks,
Jason Phillips
Rocks from Heaven
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

We've had this discussion before, Adam.  You're gaslighting.

The pairing rules are very clear and can be read in section 4.2 (a) and (b)
of this link: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/docs/nc-guidelines.pdf

Key statements:
1) "a single (collective) name may be given in cases where fragments fit
together or similar-looking fragments are found within a few meters of each
other"
2) "Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense collection areas may
be considered paired with each other or with another formally named
meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence, including geographic data that
are consistent with the meteorites being part of a single fall."

When you buy a bag of "NWA 1110" from a dealer in Morocco, you have no idea
where they're from or if they were actually picked up in the same place.
Every single fragment needs to get its own NWA number and needs to be
analyzed.  Type specimen, etc.  Unless the fragments physically fit
together and/or you have an in-situ photo showing them sitting together on
the ground, you're breaking Nomenclature Committee guidelines.

You can't just "pair" a pile of stones by looking at them, or by having
someone else look at them.  You can have them all analyzed and show that
they're internally *identical.*  Doesn't matter.  They all need their own
NWA numbers and type specimens.

And don't just think this applies only to planetaries.  You bought a 20
kilogram sack of "NWA 869?"  Every single stone needs to be cut and
analyzed if you're going to sell it as NWA 869.  Except...you can't even do
that.  Even if they are all analyzed and all fall in the range of L3.8-6,
like NWA 869, each fragment will still need its own NWA number because you
still don't have any proof of where they were found.

Those are the rules, and you've broken just as many of them as anyone
else.  These are guidelines written for scientists, by scientists.  This is
how stones are recovered and dealt with in places like Antarctica.  Every
detail of a stone's recovery is meticulously recorded, and every
(sub-gram!) fragment is analyzed.  The only people I know who have followed
such guidelines are the hunters in DCAs like Skip Wilson, who actually
record every single stone they find.

You -- and every other collector and dealer -- have played by different
rules.  Even the IMCA has bought into a different set of rules that protect
dealer interests: they say that you can't use "another meteorite dealer's
NWA number," but once you get a stone analyzed, you're allowed to
"self-pair" anything you want to that analysis, essentially without
scrutiny.  This has led to a fair amount of misrepresented material in
circulation, from "NWA 869," to the mix-and-match Martian and Lunar
pairings of recent years.

Nomenclature Committee guidelines haven't been followed since NWA
meteorites were in the single digits, by you or anyone else.  As John Shea
said before, pairing material at one's discretion is only as reliable as
the dealer doing it.

Jason







On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

>
> Thank you for the last word and the concern for my reputation.  These
> piggy-backing and self-pairing debates have gone on long before you became
> in interested in meteorites.
>
> My advice, since you are a member, is to read the IMCA bylaws which are
> all about authenticity and adhering to Meteoritical Society rules which do
> not support piggy-backing and self-pairing.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2017 10:20 AM, Martin Goff wrote:
>
>> Adam,
>>
>> I am more than comfortable with my reputation and what I have
>> contributed to the world of meteorites. I don't need to blow smoke up
>> my arse or have the need to constantly have others prop up my fragile
>> ego. As for your opinion of me, well it's quite obvious I could not
>> care a jot what your opinion is, it is meaningless to me as it is to
>> most! (a fact that is backed up by all of the messages I've had in
>> private :-)) And as for calling you out,  whether on this list or on
>> Facebook, how you can state that that is 'behind your back' just shows
>> your levels of paranoid delusion! This list and facebook are both
>> public forums and I am more than happy to speak my mind on either!
>>
>> And as for the rest of your garbled message, if it was actually
>> coherent, readable and understandable then I might be able to
>> reply..
>>
>> But, as Johannes says folk are here to talk about meteorites so I
>> won't bore them by responding further. However I'm more than sure that
>> you'll want to have the final word and cement your reputation as
>> someone who is losing the plot by clambering onto your rickety soapbox
>> and 

[meteorite-list] AD - Norton County, Alt Bela, Potter, Old Woman, Abbot, Zaragoza, Belmont, Pampa & more! Ebay Listings Ending soon! The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection

[Jason Baker via Meteorite-list]

Good Afternoon!

Some hard to find Meteorite selections from the Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection 
will be Ending in the next few days!

eBay - http://stores.ebay.com/jaypiatekmeteoritecollection

Also Find us on Facebook!  Our Group-   Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection  - 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/325877447578318/


Norton County 117.37g Aubrite FELL Feb 1948 (from IOM) -  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Norton-County-117-37g-Aubrite-FELL-Feb1948-JayPiatekMeteoriteCollection-IOM-/322667595040<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Norton-County-117-37g-Aubrite-FELL-Feb1948-JayPiatekMeteoriteCollection-IOM-/322667595040>
Potter 54.30 L6 brecciated Nebraska USA 1941 (from IOM) -  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Potter-54-30-L6-brecciated-Nebraska-USA-1941-JayPiatek-MeteoriteCollection-IOM-/222628972980
Old Woman 174g IIB California USA (from USNM) - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-Woman-174g-IIB-California-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-USNM-/322441045824
Belmont H6 5.31g Spring 1958 Wisconsin (from IOM) -  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Belmont-H6-5-31g-Spring-1958-Wisconsin-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-IOM-/222620120123
Shergotty 1.05g ASHE-B Bihar India 1865 FALL/FELL (Martian) -  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shergotty-1-05g-ASHE-B-Bihar-India-1865-FALL-FELL-JayPiatek-MeteoriteColl-Mars-/222617226027
Sacramento Mountains 96.37g IIIA 1890 New Mexico USA - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sacramento-Mountains-96-37g-IIIA-1890-New-Mexico-USA-JayPiatek-MeteoriteCollectn-/222418331376
Zaragoza 3,195g IVA 1950s Spain complete slice - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zaragoza-3-195g-IVA-1950s-Spain-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-iron-slice-cmplt-/222488230301
Abbott 26.8g H3-6 1951 New Mexico USA (from TCU) - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Abbott-26-8g-H3-6-1951-New-Mexico-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-TCU-/222420570958

Ellis County 130g H6 Ellis Co Kansas USA 1948/1949 - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ellis-County-130g-H6-Ellis-Co-Kansas-USA-1948-1949-JayPiatek-MeteoriteCollection-/222382182453
Alt Bela 33g IID 1898 Severomoravsky Czech Republic - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alt-Bela-33g-IID-1898-Severomoravsky-Czech-Republic-Jay-Piatek-MeteoriteCollectn-/222390904053


Plus Markova, Hardtner, Indian Valley, Grady, Roy, Thunda, Yilmia, Ute Creek, 
Colomera, Valle de Allende, Naryilco, Beaver Harrison, Pampa, Gaines County 
Park, Clovis, La lande, Bruderheim, Spade, Wells, Happy Canyon, Wagon Mound and 
many many more!

For up-to-date listings at: - 
http://stores.ebay.com/jaypiatekmeteoritecollection


Please watch closely and come back often.  Thank You!

Best Regards,

Jason S. Baker
Collection Curator
The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
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[meteorite-list] tektites wanted

[Jason Herrin via Meteorite-list]

Hi all,

We are looking for (legitimate) specimens of Belize and Western Canada
impact glasses.

Best regards,
Jason
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[meteorite-list] AD: Newest Lunar Meteorite

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello List,
In the majority of my 20 years of collecting I never thought it would
be possible for collectors to own a lunar meteorite like we have been
availed with, in the recent finds, over the past couple of years.
Myself and two other collectors recently had Dr. Irving classify this
specimen that turned out to be a lunar feldspathic regolith breccia,
very reminiscent of the early DaG 262 and DaG 400.  I am able to say,
to the best of my knowledge, that I am offering this specimen for the
lowest cost for a classified lunar meteorite ever.  The specimen is a
beautiful endcut weighing 316 grams.  If you have any questions please
let me know and if you are interested in this specimen please contact
me so we can discuss it.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/lunar316_zps7ijqgstr.png

Sincerely,
Jason Phillips
www.rocksfromheaven.com (educational site)
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[meteorite-list] AD: Santa Apolonia Meteorite

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Santa Apolonia, Mexico
Truly a rare iron that was released from a long term collection. These
specimens were cut and polished by Marlin Cilz. This meteorite was
discovered in 1872. While the original name was Santa Apolonia meteorite,
decades later Nininger used the names Nativitas meteorite and Tlaxcala
meteorite. This meteorite is rarely represented in collections and it is
even more rare to see a specimen of pure iron for sale. If you have any
questions please ask.   Available specimens are 4.32 grams and 2.66 grams.


4.32 grams

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Santa%
20Apolonia2_zpsqbxrwmbw.jpg


2.66 grams

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Santa%
20Apolonia1_zpsqvof3i8i.jpg


Have a great day,

Jason Phillips

Rocks from Heaven

www.rocksfromheaven.com (education site)
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Re: [meteorite-list] Sad News :-(

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello Dana and Everyone ,
I am so sad to hear this, he was such a fine man and always so happy to see
you.  I remember one time years ago when Rob Wesel and I were in looking at
the fluorescent minerals room at the Tucson gem show and Larry came in
behind us and told the guy he was our father.  ET's room will not be the
same.

Praying for his loved one's,
Jason

On Dec 9, 2016 1:16 PM, "Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list" <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> We convey our condolences to his friends and family.
>
> Great and pleasant person!, We are sorry to hear the very sad news.
> Here is a link to a good image of Larry that we found online,
> http://www.peaktopeak.com/comets/2010/showauction/2010_auction_011.JPG
>
>
> Sincerely
>
> Adam and Zann
>
>
> __
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] From the dailybruin.com - Couple loans unexpected find to UCLA Meteorite Gallery

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Some additional photos:

(1) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DSCN8994.jpg

(2) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DSCN8992.jpg

(3) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DSCN8991.jpg

(4) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DSCN8990.jpg


As it is currently displayed (through glass):

(L) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_2949.jpg

(R) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_2950.jpg


Jason

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Art via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Great news for UCLA ... Marvin, John, Nick, and Jason mentioned in this
> article about the Eltrich's awesome find.
>
>
> http://dailybruin.com/2016/06/27/couple-loans-unexpected-find-to-ucla-meteorite-gallery/
>
> -Art
>
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[meteorite-list] Position Announcement: Postdoctoral Fellow - Tektites

[Jason Herrin via Meteorite-list]

Hi all,



The Earth Observatory of Singapore seeks a Postdoctoral Research Fellow to
study the origins of the Australasian tektite strewnfield. The project
involves a combination of field and laboratory work.



More information can be found here:

http://www.earthobservatory.sg/careers/research-fellow-earth-science



Cheers,

Jason Herrin

Nanyang Technological University, Singapore
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[meteorite-list] AD: Tissint 2.28 grams

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello Meteorite Enthusiasts,
I have an incredible specimen from the 2011 Tissint fall for sale or
trade. As you know this is classified as Shergottite martian meteorite
and it is one of five witnessed falls from Mars. This specimen is a
2.28 gram complete individual with around 90% black crust, and there
is no weathering on this specimen at all. This specimen comes from the
Macovich collection of meteorites. If you have any questions please
let me know and I am interested in all offers.


http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/20160416_104524_zpskc1ih1fd.jpg


Take Care,
Jason Phillips
Rocks from Heaven Collection
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite or Space related license plates

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello Ruben and List,

Florida plates   SPC ROX

Take Care,
 Jason Phillips

On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 7:32 PM, J Sinclair via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> Rubin and List,
>
> We have a truck at work with the tag STARLAB
> I think Harlan Trammel had MARSROX
>
> Many of the tags in Alabama had "Stars Fell On Alabama" as a theme.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars_Fell_on_Alabama#/media/File:2002_Alabama_License_Plate.jpg
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Ruben Garcia via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've been wondering something for a while.
>>
>> I know Mike Farmer. Jim Schwade, Geoff Notkin and myself all have
>> meteorite or space related license plates.
>>
>> Jim Schwade and myseld have METEORS in our respective states.
>>
>> Honestly, I don't see them very often - not even in Tucson during the gem 
>> show.
>>
>> Who else has one and what is it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rock On!
>>
>> Ruben Garcia
>> http://www.MrMeteorite.com
>> __
>>
>> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
>> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> __
>
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> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] 1996-2016 meteorite collectors / dealers

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello List,
For me it was 1997, I remember pining over the NEMS catalog for hours
and making lists of my dream locations.  My first piece was a 107 gram
Gibeon slice, which I still treasure today.  Looking back it is
amazing how that simple $80 purchase has completely changed my life,
so many more pieces, great adventures and wonderful friends.  What
things of beauty and wonder we are able to enjoy!

Take Care,
Jason Phillips

On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 8:11 PM, J Sinclair via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> 20 years.
>
> I noticed while looking at Matt Morgan's web site, he writes
> "established in 1996"
> The Meteorite Exchange site says "Impacting the Meteorite World Since 1996"
>
> Did anyone else start collecting in '96. If not then... when? and why?
> Many dealers and collectors were active before '96 and many more after.
>
> In August 1996 I read on the front page of the local NC (Greensboro
> Daily News) newspaper that NASA had found a possible life form in a
> Martian meteorite found in Antarctica - Allan Hills 84001. This was
> announcing there was life elsewhere in the Universe.
>
> I figured people would want meteorites. I was already selling gems and
> minerals at shows and had seen meteorites for sale in Tucson and
> Denver. I had meteorites before the end of the year. The fist ones
> were mailed from a dealer in Mexico - Tolucas, then Gibeon from the
> S.African dealers Karl and Clive. Next was Esquel from Bob Haag. I
> nearly sold out the first show I offered meteorites.
>
> It was ALH 84001 that started it for me. How about the rest of you?
>
> See you in Tucson.
>
> John
> MeteoriteUSA.com
> __
>
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> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
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[meteorite-list] Trade: Portales Valley slice

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

Hello List,
I am offering up for trade a beautiful Portales Valley, New Mexico
slice.  This meteorite fell to earth on June 13, 1998 and gave us a
glimpse into the true beauty that lies in the stars above us.  In my
opinion Portales Valley, metal rich slices, are the most beautiful
meteorites I have ever seen, and this slice is no exception.

Information about this slice:
Dimensions are: 146mm x 89mm x 5mm
Weight: 175 grams
Coordinates will be provided as well as the finders name.
This specimen was cut at the University of Arizona on their wire saw.
This particular specimen is the high metal variation and has an
abundance of metal throughout.
The stability of this specimen is perfect.

 
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/c0d1d6ae-5df1-47af-b090-45df911e0671_zpskv6dj4e1.jpg

If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.

Take Care,
Jason Phillips
Rocks from Heaven
www.rocksfromheaven.com
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[meteorite-list] AD: Meteorites for Sale

[Jason Phillips via Meteorite-list]

/1967.  These complete individual specimens are beautiful as
well as fresh and some of them even show the orangish clay that is so
common on some specimens from Australia.  The weights on these
specimens are: 16.6 grams, 14 grams, 14.6 grams, and 12.3 grams.  The
price on these is $6/gram.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/IMG_00741_zpsd2c720fd.jpg


18.  Millbillilie, Australia-  Here we have one of the most important
meteorite falls.  It fell in 1960 and is classified as an Eucrite.
This individual specimen shows the characteristic orangish clay
staining and is a beautiful piece.  It weighs 20.9 grams and is priced
at $8/gram.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/IMG_0075_zps29ab180d.jpg


19.  Camel Donga, Australia-  Here we have a complete individual with
beautiful black shiny fusion crust that weighs 14.3 grams.  Tiny
delicate flow lines are present in the crust of this specimen.  It is
an excellent example of what a fresh eucrite should look like.  It is
priced at $10/gram.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/IMG_0071_zpsfa639dde.jpg


20.  Allende, Mexico- We have a beautiful polished endcut showing
abundant chondrules, which are so characteristic of this rare CV3 fall
from 1969.  It is 13.5 grams and comes housed in a really neat vial.
The price is $8/gram.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/IMG_0042_zps80e4299d.jpg


21.  Zagami, Nigeria-  This is a small fragment (size of a large
pepper flake) of crust that broke off of my collection slice.  This is
a rare witnessed fall from Mars.  Price is $10.


22.  Dhofar 019, Oman-  This is a thin part slice of an incredible
Martian meteorite that was only available on the market for a short
period of time.  This meteorite shows the normal greenish interior of
Martian meteorites however, it also has very unique orangettes that
are areas of orange matrix.  This specimen weighs 0.18 grams and the
price is $175.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/IMG_00901_zps11a17544.jpg


23.  Arriba, Colorado-  A very rare, minimally represented in
collections, L5 find from the United States.  This meteorite was found
in 1936 and the specimen at hand weighs 0.14 grams.  This unique
offering is priced at $75.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/IMG_00551_zpscd008f71.jpg


24.  Dhofar 007, Oman-  A beautiful thin slice has fusion crust
present.  This Eucrite displays good surface area with a weight of
0.63 grams.  The price on this specimen is $15.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/IMG_0056_zps9fa87ff6.jpg


25.  Boriskino, Russia-  Offered here is an extremely rare
classification (CM2), only outdone by the fact that it is almost
impossible to obtain a piece of this meteorite.  This rare specimen is
a witnessed fall from 4/20/1930.  This specimen is offered for $100.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/IMG_0053_zps9187acda.jpg


26.  Claxton, Georgia-  We have a .098 gram part slice with a patch of
fusion crust.  Claxton is a witnessed fall from 12/10/1984 with a very
low total known weight of 1,455 grams.  Claxton is classified as a L6
chondrite.  The price of this specimen is $50.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/IMG_00411_zps4a7d14a7.jpg



 All specimen will be shipped USPS at the buyers expense. All are
guaranteed as stated. If you have any questions please feel free to
contact me.

Thanks,

Jason Phillips

Rocks From Heaven

www.rocksfromheaven.com (educational site)

AD (1/2)
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[meteorite-list] AD: Kermichel, Augusta County, Alt Bela, Bendego (non-ox), Copiapo, Moonbi more! Ebay Listings Ending! Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection

[Jason Baker via Meteorite-list]

It's Friday!

Some hard to find Meteorite selections from the Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection 
will be Ending in the next few days!

Also Find us on Facebook!  Our Group-   Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection  - 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/325877447578318/


eBay - http://stores.ebay.com/thejaypiatekmeteoritecollection/


(LAST SPECIMEN!)  Kermichel 2.36g L6 Morbihan France 1911 - TCU-   - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kermichel-2-36g-L6-Morbihan-France-1911-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-TCU-/221547426153

(LAST SPECIMEN!)  Augusta County 14.96g IIIAB Virginia USA 1858 -  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Augusta-County-14-96g-IIIAB-Virginia-USA-1858-IRON-JayPiatek-MeteoriteCollection-/221542110649

Bendego (non-oxidized) 48g IC Bahia Brazil 1784 - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bendego-non-oxidized-48g-IC-Bahia-Brazil-1784-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221545927801

Alt Bela 33g IID 1898 Severomoravsky Czech Republic - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alt-Bela-33g-IID-1898-Severomoravsky-Czech-Republic-Jay-Piatek-MeteoriteCollectn-/321518409644

Copiapo 81.23g IAB-MG Atacama Chile 1863 - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Copiapo-81-23g-IAB-MG-Atacama-Chile-1863-JayPiatek-MeteoriteCollection-END-PIECE-/221541690122

Moonbi 5.52g IIIF 1892 NewSouth WalesAustralia - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moonbi-5-52g-IIIF-1892-NewSouth-WalesAustralia-JayPiatekMeteoriteCollection-/321516377788


Indian Valley, Lunar, Hunter, Thunda, Ellis County,  Bruderheim, Plains, Adams 
County, Arriba, Happy Canyon,  Estacado and many more! 

For up-to-date listings at:  
http://stores.ebay.com/thejaypiatekmeteoritecollection/


Please watch closely and often.  Thank You!

Best Regards,

Jason S. Baker
Collection Manager
The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
Indianapolis, IN
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[meteorite-list] AD: Guffey, Hoba, Moonbi, Fairfield, Zacatecas Bruderheim more! Ebay Listings Ending! Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection

[Jason Baker via Meteorite-list]

Good Afternoon!

Some difficult to find Meteorite selections from the Jay Piatek Meteorite 
Collection will be Ending in the next few days!

Jay Piatek has been lowering prices and reviewing each and every offer 
submitted for some of his listings, 
and has given some unbelievable deals.   So get it now or make an offer!

Find us on Facebook!  Our Group-   Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection  - 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/325877447578318/



eBay - http://stores.ebay.com/thejaypiatekmeteoritecollection/

Zacatecas 11.64g L6 Morbihan France 1911 - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zacatecas-1969-538-04g-IIIB-Zacatecas-Mexico-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221535085023

Hoba 14.7g IVB 1920 Grootfontein Namibia  - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hoba-14-7g-IVB-1920-Grootfontein-Namibia-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-IRON-/221535269109

Bruderheim 243.16g L6 FELL Mar 4 1960 Canada - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bruderheim-243-16g-L6-FELL-Mar-4-1960-Canada-JayPiatek-Meteorite-Collection-IOM-/221530901347

Guffey 95.26g IRUNGR Park Co. Colorado USA 1907 - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Guffey-95-26g-IRUNGR-Park-Co-Colorado-USA-1907-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221535832270

Fairfield 9.57g IAB 1982 Ohio USA Butler Co - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fairfield-9-57g-IAB-1982-Ohio-USA-Butler-Co-IRON-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221529958569

Moonbi 5.52g IIIF 1892 NewSouth WalesAustralia - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moonbi-5-52g-IIIF-1892-NewSouth-WalesAustralia-JayPiatekMeteoriteCollection-USNM-/221536002372

Augusta County 14.96g IIIAB Virginia USA 1858 - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Augusta-County-14-96g-IIIAB-Virginia-USA-1858-IRON-JayPiatek-MeteoriteCollection-/221533415897?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item33946ba9d9


Thunda, Ellis County,  Plains, Adams County, Arriba, Happy Canyon,  Estacado 
and many more! 


For up-to-date listings at:  
http://stores.ebay.com/thejaypiatekmeteoritecollection/


Please watch closely and often.  Thank You!
Regards,

Jason S. Baker
Collection Manager
The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
Indianapolis, IN
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[meteorite-list] AD: THUNDA, Indian Valley, Fairfield, Kermichel, Bruderheim, Turtle River, Hope Creek more! Ebay Listings Ending! Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection

[Jason Baker via Meteorite-list]

Good Afternoon Everyone.

Some difficult to find Meteorite selections from the Jay Piatek Meteorite 
Collection will be Ending in the next few days!

Jay Piatek has been lowering prices and reviewing each and every offer 
submitted for some of his listings, 
and has given some unbelievable deals.   So get it now or make an offer!


http://stores.ebay.com/thejaypiatekmeteoritecollection/


Kermichel 11.64g L6 Morbihan France 1911 - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kermichel-11-64g-L6-Morbihan-France-1911-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-TCU-/221529953744

Indian Valley 25.67g IIAB Virginia USA 1887 - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Indian-Valley-25-67g-IIAB-Virginia-USA-1887-IRON-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221523176323

Bruderheim 243.16g L6 FELL Mar 4 1960 Canada - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bruderheim-243-16g-L6-FELL-Mar-4-1960-Canada-JayPiatek-Meteorite-Collection-IOM-/221522169557

Fairfield 9.57g IAB 1982 Ohio USA Butler Co - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fairfield-9-57g-IAB-1982-Ohio-USA-Butler-Co-IRON-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221529958569

Turtle River 64g IIIB 1953 Minnesota USA - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turtle-River-64g-IIIB-1953-Minnesota-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-IRON-/221529691547

THUNDA 35.14g IIIA 1881 Queensland Australia - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THUNDA-35-14g-IIIA-1881-Queensland-Australia-JayPiatek-MeteoriteCollection-IRON-/221526651553

Valle de Allende 40.5g L4 Chihuahua Mexico 1983 - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valle-de-Allende-40-5g-L4-Chihuahua-Mexico-1983-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221528308112

Hope Creek 39g LL6 Summer 1998 Alaska USA - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hope-Creek-39g-LL6-Summer-1998-Alaska-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221529692267

Kimble County 32.9g H6 1918 Texas USA - 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kimble-County-32-9g-H6-1918-Texas-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-USNM-/221504008403


Augusta County, Ellis County,  Plains, Adams County, Arriba, Happy Canyon,  
Estacado and many more! 


For up-to-date listings at:  
http://stores.ebay.com/thejaypiatekmeteoritecollection/


Please watch closely and often.  Thank You!
Regards,

Jason S. Baker
Collection Manager
The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
Indianapolis, IN
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[meteorite-list] AD: THUNDA, Indian Valley, Fairfield, Kermichel, Bruderheim, Turtle River, Hope Creek more! Ebay Listings Ending! Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection

[Jason Baker via Meteorite-list]

Good Afternoon Everyone.

Some difficult to find Meteorite selections from the Jay Piatek Meteorite 
Collection will be Ending in the next few days!

Jay Piatek has been lowering prices and reviewing each and every offer 
submitted for some of his listings, 
and has given some unbelievable deals.   So get it now or make an offer!


http://stores.ebay.com/thejaypiatekmeteoritecollection/


Kermichel 11.64g L6 Morbihan France 1911 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kermichel-11-64g-L6-Morbihan-France-1911-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-TCU-/221529953744

Indian Valley 25.67g IIAB Virginia USA 1887
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Indian-Valley-25-67g-IIAB-Virginia-USA-1887-IRON-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221523176323

Bruderheim 243.16g L6 FELL Mar 4 1960 Canada
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bruderheim-243-16g-L6-FELL-Mar-4-1960-Canada-JayPiatek-Meteorite-Collection-IOM-/221522169557

Fairfield 9.57g IAB 1982 Ohio USA Butler Co
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fairfield-9-57g-IAB-1982-Ohio-USA-Butler-Co-IRON-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221529958569

Turtle River 64g IIIB 1953 Minnesota USA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turtle-River-64g-IIIB-1953-Minnesota-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-IRON-/221529691547

THUNDA 35.14g IIIA 1881 Queensland Australia
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THUNDA-35-14g-IIIA-1881-Queensland-Australia-JayPiatek-MeteoriteCollection-IRON-/221526651553

Valle de Allende 40.5g L4 Chihuahua Mexico 1983
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valle-de-Allende-40-5g-L4-Chihuahua-Mexico-1983-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221528308112

Hope Creek 39g LL6 Summer 1998 Alaska USA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hope-Creek-39g-LL6-Summer-1998-Alaska-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221529692267

Kimble County 32.9g H6 1918 Texas USA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kimble-County-32-9g-H6-1918-Texas-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-USNM-/221504008403


Augusta County, Ellis County,  Plains, Adams County, Arriba, Happy Canyon,  
Estacado and many more! 


For up-to-date listings at:  
http://stores.ebay.com/thejaypiatekmeteoritecollection/


Please watch closely and often.  Thank You!
Regards,

Jason S. Baker
Collection Manager
The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
Indianapolis, IN
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[meteorite-list] Fwd: AD: Trade diamonds for meteorites

[Jason Phillips]

Hello All You Natural History Collectors,
As most of us do, I have dabbled in fossils and gems over the years
with meteorites always being my primary focus.  Well, I have some
diamonds (cut and faceted) that I am going to offer up for trade for
meteorites.  This is a great chance for you to diversify your natural
history collection or get some great diamonds for that special person
in your life.  My preference is to trade all 5 diamonds as one lot.
Contact me and we can discuss trade options and values.

1. 1.02 carat oval cut  I1 clarity and G color, great fire.
2. 0.69 carat princess cut VS1 clarity and M color, beautiful stone.
3. 0.47 carat pear cut  SI2 clarity and G color, EGL certified with
laser etching on girdle (can only be seen under a microscope).
4. 0.20 carat round brilliant cuts  I1 clarity and Blue in color.
This is a matched pair with a total weight of 0.40 carats.

Thanks and Take Care,
Jason Phillips
Rocks from Heaven
www.rocksfromheaven.com
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[meteorite-list] AD: Trade Diamonds for Meteorites

[Jason Phillips]

Hello All You Natural History Collectors,
As most of us do, I have dabbled in fossils and gems over the years
with meteorites always being my primary focus.  Well, I have some
diamonds (cut and faceted) that I am going to offer up for trade for
meteorites.  This is a great chance for you to diversify your natural
history collection or get some great diamonds for that special person
in your life.  My preference is to trade all 5 diamonds as one lot.
Contact me and we can discuss trade options and values.

1. 1.02 carat oval cut  I1 clarity and G color, great fire.
2. 0.69 carat princess cut VS1 clarity and M color, beautiful stone.
3. 0.47 carat pear cut  SI2 clarity and G color, EGL certified with
laser etching on girdle (can only be seen under a microscope).
4. 0.20 carat round brilliant cuts  I1 clarity and Blue in color.
This is a matched pair with a total weight of 0.40 carats.

Thanks and Take Care,
Jason Phillips
Rocks from Heaven
www.rocksfromheaven.com
__

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[meteorite-list] AD: Ransom, Howardite more! Ebay Listings Ending SOON! Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection

[Jason Baker]

Good Afternoon Everyone.

After attending the Tucson Rock  Mineral show this year.   Dr. Piatek wants to 
give great deals on some difficult to find Meteorites.  

Jay Piatek has been lowering prices and reviewing each and every offer 
submitted for some of his listings, and has given some unbelievable deals.   

So give it a chance, and make an offer!



Some selections from the Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection will be Ending in the 
next few days!

Marlow 2.0g L5 Oklahoma USA Feb 1936
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marlow-2-0g-L5-Oklahoma-USA-Feb-1936-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-Chondrite-/221378223668

Eads 1.2g H4 1975 Colorado USA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eads-1-2g-H4-1975-Colorado-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-Stone-Chondrite-/221378228485

Warburton Range 36.8g IVB 1963 Western Australia
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warburton-Range-36-8g-IVB-1963-Western-Australia-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221378891161

Jalu 6.5g L6 Nov 1 2000 Hammadah al Hamra Libya
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jalu-6-5g-L6-Nov-1-2000-Hammadah-al-Hamra-Libya-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221380730627

Lamont 3.5g MES 1940 Kansas USA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lamont-3-5g-MES-1940-Kansas-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-Mesosiderite-/221378878322

Acme 3.3g H5 New Mexico 1947 USA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acme-3-3g-H5-New-Mexico-1947-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221378872290

Brownfield (1937) 7.8g H3.7 Jan. 1937 Texas USA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brownfield-1937-7-8g-H3-7-Jan-1937-Texas-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221380837097

NWA 1929 417g HOW Howardite 2001
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NWA-1929-417g-HOW-Howardite-2001-JayPiatek-Meteorite-Collection-Vesta-/221381403465

NWA 2651 9g URE slice w/ rare Pyroxene inclusion
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NWA-2651-9g-URE-slice-w-rare-Pyroxene-Inclusion-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221375688754

Baquedano 68.6g IIIB 1932 Atacama Chile IRON
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baquedano-68-6g-IIIB-1932-Atacama-Chile-IRON-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-HTF-/221375032029

Ransom 302g H4 1938 Kansas USA  ASU Provenance
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ransom-302g-H4-1938-Kansas-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-ASU-Provenance-/221375506987

Fremont Butte 191.6g L4 Colorado USA 1940
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fremont-Butte-191-6g-L4-Colorado-USA-1940-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221375033106

 Hunter, Hugoton,  Arapahoe, Estacado and many more! 


For up-to-date listings at:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/jaypiatekmeteoritecollection/m.html



Please watch closely and often.  Thank You!
Regards,

Jason S. Baker
Collection Manager
The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
Indianapolis, IN
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Re: [meteorite-list] Possible chelyabinsk scam?

[Jason Utas]

Hello Graham,
I purchased that stone several months ago, corresponded briefly with
the seller, sent the money, and never heard back.  Paypal refunded the
full amount ~40-45 days later, after I filed a case.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Graham Ensor graham.en...@gmail.com wrote:
 Has anyone seen this Cheliabinsk meteorite around before?...I believe
 it is a scam...any thoughts anyone.
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151226609728?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

 Graham
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fraud from Portugal?

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
In all fairness, that Ourique does look ~ok.  H-chondrites with
similar regolith textures are around, but not common, and those pieces
look fresh enough.

The Chaves does look a bit funny, but it's also very small.  If the
seller says the specimen came from Corey, I'd double-check with Corey.
 If you check the Meteoritical Bulletin page's photos, you'll see at
least one piece that was sold by Jorge Gonçalves, and which appears to
be an L5 chondrite.  I'd be worried, but Corey should know what he
sold.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 I will provide the provenance at the time of sale. Micheal, I will let the 
 seller know that you think he is a scammer even though his reputation is 
 excellent and he considers you a friend.  For all I know, you probably 
 provided him with the piece.  That is the problem with falls, a few bad 
 apples have ruined it for the rest of us by introducing doubt into the market.


 The meteorite fall bubble burst a few years ago and non-fall bubble a long 
 time before that.  It took me years to unload my North American find 
 inventory, most of which came from TCU and I was lucky to break even.  I was 
 barely getting a dollar a gram for the material even though its provenance 
 was spotless.

 I enjoy meteorites and still contribute to the community any chance I get.  
 If I need some write-offs, I will be sure to flood the market.

 Best Wishes and Good Luck to all those selling at the Tucson Show.

 Adam




 - Original Message -
 From: Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fraud from Portugal?

 Well there you go, less than 20 kg recovered and thus clearly a fraud.
 Please identify the scammer for us all.
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:18 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I bought a chunk for $1.12/gram from a reputable dealer on eBay over two 
 years ago according to my notes.  Maybe I got a break but he states that 20 
 kilograms was claimed but there is well over 40 kilograms available.


 In any case, I do not collect falls partly because there is a lot of fraud 
 and switches going on.

 Adam




 - Original Message -
 From: Dennis Miller astror...@hotmail.com
 To: Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 Cc: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Adam 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:58 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fraud from Portugal?

 Blood auctions: 2007 $10.00/gm
 2010 $22.75/gm
 Dennis

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 11, 2014, at 8:33 AM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:

 Ourique has never sold for $1 gram, unless fake.

 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:

 He is crazy asking $1,800.00 for a piece of Ourique, a very common H4 
 which normally sales for $1.00 /gram the last time some was put up on eBay.






 
 From: Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com
 To: Met-List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:07 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fraud from Portugal?


 I have a feeling that the fraudster from Portugal may be at it again. He 
 is listing under the name nrscc and has some rare items for sale. No 
 provenance, few details, ...

 Let me know your thoughts so we can stop this if in fact a fraud.

 http://www.ebay.com/sch/nrscc/m.html


 Mendy Ouzillou
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Re: [meteorite-list] Ad: Ebay auctions Ending Soon - North American Meteorites

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
Analyzed San Bernardino Wash is on the left.  An unclassified stone
being called San Bernardino Wash is on the right.  Both specimens have
approximately the same weight/surface area (~10-11 grams).

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/comparison.jpg

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:

 For those collectors with an interest in North American meteorites,
 I would like to bring your attention to some 3-day eBay offerings (ending 
 soon):


 http://www.ebay.com/sch/bolide*chaser/m.html

 Hope you enjoy the images,
 Bob V.
  bolide*chaser 

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[meteorite-list] AD : Santa Rosa, Emery, Milly Milly, Ransom, Kulnine, Howardite more! Ebay Listings Ending SOON!

[Jason Baker]

Good Afternoon Everyone.

For those who may not be able to attend the Tucson Rock  Mineral show this 
year.   
Dr. Piatek wants to give you a fun little sale to keep in the spirit of this 
event and also offer some impossible to find Meteorites.  Even for Tucson!   

Listings will end this weekend, and may possibly never be re-listed!

Some more rare selections from the Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection will be 
Ending in the next few days!


NWA 1929 417g HOW Howardite 2001 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NWA-1929-417g-HOW-Howardite-2001-JayPiatek-Meteorite-Collection-Vesta-/221368703334

Hyattville 6.2g L6 April 2008 Wyoming USA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hyattville-6-2g-L6-April-2008-Wyoming-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221368633048

Santa Rosa 50.6g IC Boyaca Colombia 1810
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Santa-Rosa-50-6g-IC-Boyaca-Colombia-1810-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221368633047

Emery 63.6g MES-A3 1962 S Dakota USA Mesosiderite
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emery-63-6g-MES-A3-1962-S-Dakota-USA-Mesosiderite-JayPiatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221365059059

NWA 2651 9g URE slice w/ rare Pyroxene inclusion
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NWA-2651-9g-URE-slice-w-rare-Pyroxene-inclusion-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221364229349

Kulnine 28.2g L6 Victoria Australia Jan. 1886
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kulnine-28-2g-L6-Victoria-Australia-Jan-1886-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221367985231

Milly Milly 31.6g IIIA 1921 Western Australia
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Milly-Milly-31-6g-IIIA-1921-Western-Australia-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221367469997

Baquedano 68.6g IIIB 1932 Atacama Chile IRON
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baquedano-68-6g-IIIB-1932-Atacama-Chile-IRON-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-HTF-/221365470264

Ransom 302g H4 1938 Kansas USA  ASU Provenance
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ransom-302g-H4-1938-Kansas-USA-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-ASU-Provenance-/221364988776

Fremont Butte 191.6g L4 Colorado USA 1940
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fremont-Butte-191-6g-L4-Colorado-USA-1940-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221365405082

Piedade do Bagre 30g IRUNGR Brazil 1922
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Piedade-do-Bagre-30g-IRUNGR-Brazil-1922-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-RARE-/221364229279


Lamont, Hunter, Hugoton, Jalu, Arapahoe, Estacado and many more! 

For up-to-date listings at:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/jaypiatekmeteoritecollection/m.html


Please watch closely and often.  Thank You!
Regards,

Jason S. Baker
Collection Manager
The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection 
Indianapolis, IN
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Re: [meteorite-list] LINK

[Jason Utas]

One finds those odd black lumps in the desert with some regularity
(lot 37).  I always assumed they were heavily weathered globs of tar
from telephone poles, baked into odd shapes by the sun.  Typically not
quite as hard as rock when pressure is applied, chip conchoidally
revealing a glassy black texture.  Low density.  Higher concentration
closer to roads...

Nice piece of chalcedony (lot 34) being offered as a UFO token as
well.  Won't say the stuff isn't cool or something like that, but with
a close examination, I don't know how may of these things are U or
F.  Definitely Os, though.  How much is a pyrite nodule worth if
it's supposedly from a UFO (lot 35)?  Does that count as some sort of
'provenance?'

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Some people need to lighten up.  The Blood auction is supposed to be fun.  
 What better place than Tucson to offer these extraterrestrial marvels?


 UFOology is hot right now with over a dozen series devoted to the subject on 
 the cable TV channels.  Viewers cannot get enough of it. UFO material from 
 the 50's and 60's is among the top performing  items in the collectables 
 sector right now.  A decade ago, it was dinosaurs.

 It doesn't matter if you believe in it or not; Some of this material has 
 proven to be an excellent investment.

 Take this sketch of a flying saucer being offered up on eBay for instance:

 RARE RAY HARRYHAUSEN EARTH VS THE FLYING SAUCERS UFO SKETCH SIGNED ART
 AUTOGRAPH http://r.ebay.com/qwUlkI

 A mere $21,000.0 and it could be yours. It looks like there have been 5 
 offers on it.  I think the witness sketch in the Blood auction is way more 
 exciting and there is no minimum bid.

 Then there is Lot 37 which attracted the attention of the scientific 
 community.  It is made of 100% pure Enstatite aligned in sharp microscopic 
 shards which could not occur naturally.   It even looks oriented.  It is 
 informally referred to as the Puckerite for obvious reasons.  It doesn't 
 get more alien looking than this!


 You can cut and paste this link into  a browser if you want to know more 
 about Enstatite



 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enstatite

 Do not forget there is a specimen labeled as the Tucson meteorite in this 
 collection of artifacts!

 Tucson, with all of it wackiness and oddities, is the perfect place for this 
 kind offering.

 Adam







 - Original Message -
 From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net
 To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 4:54 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] LINK

 OOOPS


 http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/AuctionTucson2014.html


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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Ad: North American meteorite - San Bernardino Wash (L5)

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bob,
I'm confused.  I addressed that.  You're saying that, because they're
L5's, they are paired, despite the fact that they look different?

Over 1/10 meteorites found is L5.  Seriously.  Almost 5,000 approved
meteorites are L5s, out of ~48,000 total approved meteorites.  If you
find a meteorite and you keep looking, there's a ~1/10 chance that the
next (new) meteorite you find will be an L5.

The requirements are clear.  ...[A] single (collective) name may be
given in cases where fragments fit together or similar-looking
fragments are found within a few meters of each other.

[S]imilar-looking fragments are found within a few meters of each other.

I don't really understand why you'd try to claim a pairing.  Could
they be paired?  Maybe.  If you're arguing for the *possibility,* I
won't argue with you.  There's a very small, but indisputable, chance.
 Seems illogical to hedge your bet on it since they look so different,
though.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:48 AM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:
 I started to write a reply but then I realized that I was just repeating
 what I wrote earlier.
 So, I'll just reprint it here:

 But, to directly answer your question, I would have to refer you to my
 latest Meteorite-Times article:
 http://meteorite-recovery.tripod.com/2014/jan14.htm
 for my description of how a cluster of obviously-paired fragments found at
 SBW had such a variation in looks,
 that it prompted me to sample a number of them and to actually have two of
 those fragments classified.
 For your convenience, I'll show them here:

 Pinto Mountains --(L6 S3 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.3% n=16; low-Ca pyroxene
 Fs20.3Wo1.5 n=17)-- 1955 stone
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W3 Fa24.6+/-0.6% (n=7) -- (UCLA
 type-specimen) -- 2010 stone
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S1 W3 Fa24.0+/-0.2% (n=24)
 -- 2012A fragment
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.4% (n=14)
 -- 2012B fragment

 'Nuff said.
 Bob V.


 On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:51 PM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Helo Bob, All,

I agree, they definitely look different.

 'Nuff said.  You could assume microclimates, but I wouldn't start
 putting forth a hypothesis like that without something substantial
 like argon data to tie the two stones together.  The Meteoritical
 Bulletin is clear on pairing:

 http://meteoriticalsociety.org/?page_id=59

 a) Level of scrutiny. Sequential names comprising a prefix and numeric
 suffix will be given to new meteorites without checking for possible
 pairings, although a single (collective) name may be given in cases
 where fragments fit together or similar-looking fragments are found
 within a few meters of each other.

 b) Pairing groups. Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense
 collection areas may be considered paired with each other or with
 another formally named meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence,
 including geographic data, that is consistent with the meteorites
 being part of a single fall. The evidence must be evaluated by the
 Committee. All approved members of a pairing group will be named with
 a geographic prefix plus a number in the same way as are unpaired
 meteorites; special type-specimen requirements will apply to newly
 paired meteorites (section 7.1f). If two or more numbered meteorites
 with formal names are subsequently determined to be paired, their
 names should not be changed. Pairing groups may be referred to
 collectively by the lowest specimen number, the most widely studied
 mass number or the largest mass number (e.g., the EET 87711 pairing
 group).

 To emphasize the important part, a single (collective) name may be
 given in cases where fragments fit together or similar-looking
 fragments are found within a few meters of each other.

 They look different and weren't found within meters; the necessary
 evidence clearly isn't there.  Anything else is guesswork.

 Regards,
 Jason


 On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com
 wrote:


 Yes Jason,
 I agree, they definitely look different.
 But what has me puzzled is something that is not all that apparent in our
 images.  The exterior of our two stones.
 Your stone has a very well-preserved exterior (even though your interior
 is a uniformly-colored W3), whereas,
 my exterior (which is not visible in the image) is gone, actually eroded.
 Yet somehow, my stone's interior
 is less weathered than your stone (my stone was classified as W1).
 I wonder, if the interior of my stone were to weather to a W3, just how
 much it would look like your stone?


 But, to directly answer your question, I would have to refer you to my
 latest Meteorite-Times article:
 http://meteorite-recovery.tripod.com/2014/jan14.htm
 for my description of how a cluster of obviously-paired fragments found at
 SBW had such a variation in looks,
 that it prompted me to sample a number of them and to actually have two of
 those fragments classified.
 For your

Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Ad: North American meteorite - San Bernardino Wash (L5)

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bob, All,
We were thorough.  The type specimen consisted of a slice and end-cut
from 1) the first stone, and 2) the largest fragment from the second
cluster.  We took samples of each.  The two cut stones looked
~identical, inside and out (-- and unlike your stone).  All of the
smaller fragments looked ~the same, and, yes, rather different from
the fragment pictured in the Picture of the Day or the slice you sold
on Ebay.  I don't have the stones at my apartment, but will post some
photos on our website at some point in the near future.

Why is it, now, incumbent upon me to submit a request to the NomCom for SBWash 
002 and for the formation of a DCA?

Because, to quote you, I agree, they definitely look different.  Of
course, there's no requirement that you get your new find(s)
classified; that is entirely up to you.  We haven't had ~99% of our
finds classified.  They're ordinary chondrites and there's just no
point.

You do go on to say in your new email that they DO look similar.  I
only agreed that they weathered differently.

That's definitely not what you said at first, but let's assume you
misspoke.  Your stone looks different.  The exterior looks friable and
weathered, and the interior looks porous and fresh.  You can't account
for additional porosity with weathering (typically) unless you oxidize
and remove most of the metal, producing vugs.  Since the more porous
rock is the fresh one, I think we can safely say that this isn't the
case.  And porous meteorites tend to weather more quickly than less
porous ones.

Sure, it's not a laboratory analysis, but any experienced meteorite
collector could tell you as much.  Since this is all somewhat
qualitative, I would simply point out that there is discord amongst
experts, and the prudent thing to do is to get the stone analyzed.

That said, I'm currently selling some fragments of NWA 7034 on our
website.  I still don't have analytical data on any of them.  I
clearly state this on my website.  I also purchased the fragments from
a prominent and well-regarded Moroccan meteorite dealer as NWA 7034,
and the pieces came from a larger fragmented find that has been
analyzed and submitted by the person who purchased it.  And they look
identical to the known finds, which are a distinctive off-black
breccia with white/light clasts and nearly unique spherical
inclusions.

Some dealers harped at me for selling it without getting a piece
analyzed, but do you know what no one did?  No one said they looked
different.  Because they look like NWA 7034.  It was also the highest
price per gram I've ever paid for a meteorite, by ~800%, but that
doesn't prove anything.

 my fragments (which come from a single, several meter-wide patch
formed by a splatter-impact) DO LOOK LIKE all the other stones
recovered from the San Bernardino Wash.

Since I don't think you've seen the exterior of our specimens, I find
this statement highly presumptive.  Regardless, it is incorrect.
There's always the slight possibility that we're dealing with a
heterogeneous L-breccia like Gold Basin, but...prudence.

I will disagree on one other thing.  A mistake has been made.
Personally 'pairing' distinctive stones that come from the same place
and look identical is one thing (e.g. Jbilet Winselwan, Taza, NWA
7325, etc.), but you sold a slice of a meteorite that doesn't *appear*
to be paired to a given meteorite -- as that particular meteorite.

Since at least two other distinct chondrites have been found in the
area (Zulu Queen/Dale Dry Lake and Pinto Mountains), that seems odd to
me.  And it's against Meteoritical Bulletin pairing guidelines, but
you've ignored the repeated references I've made to those, so I guess
I'll stop pointing it out.

Choose to get your finds analyzed or don't, as you prefer, but I
wouldn't try to justify self-pairing meteorites that don't look to be
paired.  Regardless of guidelines, common sense should come into play.

Since no one else is chiming in, it's hard to say whose view is
prevalent, but I have the feeling that most would err on the side of
caution in this case.  If nothing else, one couldn't be blamed for it.

FYI, I think folks are going to start complaining about this thread soon...

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:


 Apparently, you’re not the only one confused.  I’ve been discussing this 
 topic with some
 other people and they find this confusing, as well, and all have the same 
 question:
 Why did the NomCom give you 1 name, instead of numbering each of the stones 
 that Bob Perkins, Gary Crabtree,
 and Fred Mason found?  These were all recovered over a wide area inside the 
 San Bernardino Wash.

 I’m not saying that you did anything wrong (in fact, in my article I praised 
 your informative submission to the Meteoritical Bulletin),
 and it is probably unfair to ask you a question about the NomCom and why they
 didn’t require that a DCA be formed, but it certainly

[meteorite-list] Fwd: Ad: North American meteorite - San Bernardino Wash (L5)

[Jason Utas]

Helo Bob, All,

I agree, they definitely look different.

'Nuff said.  You could assume microclimates, but I wouldn't start
putting forth a hypothesis like that without something substantial
like argon data to tie the two stones together.  The Meteoritical
Bulletin is clear on pairing:

http://meteoriticalsociety.org/?page_id=59

a) Level of scrutiny. Sequential names comprising a prefix and numeric
suffix will be given to new meteorites without checking for possible
pairings, although a single (collective) name may be given in cases
where fragments fit together or similar-looking fragments are found
within a few meters of each other.

b) Pairing groups. Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense
collection areas may be considered paired with each other or with
another formally named meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence,
including geographic data, that is consistent with the meteorites
being part of a single fall. The evidence must be evaluated by the
Committee. All approved members of a pairing group will be named with
a geographic prefix plus a number in the same way as are unpaired
meteorites; special type-specimen requirements will apply to newly
paired meteorites (section 7.1f). If two or more numbered meteorites
with formal names are subsequently determined to be paired, their
names should not be changed. Pairing groups may be referred to
collectively by the lowest specimen number, the most widely studied
mass number or the largest mass number (e.g., the EET 87711 pairing
group).

To emphasize the important part, a single (collective) name may be
given in cases where fragments fit together or similar-looking
fragments are found within a few meters of each other.

They look different and weren't found within meters; the necessary
evidence clearly isn't there.  Anything else is guesswork.

Regards,
Jason


On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:


 Yes Jason,
 I agree, they definitely look different.
 But what has me puzzled is something that is not all that apparent in our 
 images.  The exterior of our two stones.
 Your stone has a very well-preserved exterior (even though your interior is a 
 uniformly-colored W3), whereas,
 my exterior (which is not visible in the image) is gone, actually eroded. Yet 
 somehow, my stone's interior
 is less weathered than your stone (my stone was classified as W1).
 I wonder, if the interior of my stone were to weather to a W3, just how 
 much it would look like your stone?


 But, to directly answer your question, I would have to refer you to my latest 
 Meteorite-Times article:
 http://meteorite-recovery.tripod.com/2014/jan14.htm
 for my description of how a cluster of obviously-paired fragments found at 
 SBW had such a variation in looks,
 that it prompted me to sample a number of them and to actually have two of 
 those fragments classified.
 For your convenience, I'll show them here:

 Pinto Mountains -- (L6 S3 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.3% n=16; low-Ca pyroxene 
 Fs20.3Wo1.5 n=17)-- 1955 stone
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W3 Fa24.6+/-0.6% (n=7) -- (UCLA type-specimen) 
 -- 2010 stone
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S1 W3 Fa24.0+/-0.2% (n=24)
 -- 2012A fragment
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.4% (n=14)
 -- 2012B fragment


 This just might be a case of (very) micro-environments acting immediate to 
 where each fragment is found, that is causing all of these differences.

 I'm open to any and all other explanations,
 Bob V.





 On Monday, January 20, 2014 2:48 PM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 Hello Bob, All,
Just home from a hunt, haven't had the opportunity to reply until now.
I don't have photos of the other stone/fragments, but I do have a few
photos of SBW#1 on hand:

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/DSCN7095.jpg

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/DSCN7101.jpg

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/comparison.jpg

Is there any evidence for pairing beyond equilibrated L?  As you can
see, that slice looks a bit different.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com



On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:
 For those collectors with an interest in North American meteorites,
 I would like to bring your attention to an eBay offering (ending soon) of a 
 classified find from the California Mojave Desert:
 San Bernardino Wash (L5)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/221353605398


 This under-appreciated meteorite promises to become better-known now that
 additional field-work and research results are starting to appear on the 
 Internet:

 https://www.google.com/#q=San+Bernardino+Wash+L5+meteorite+strewn-field

 Although the study of this area is too early to determine the possible TKW 
 of this meteorite,
 it certainly will not rival Gold Basin (L4/6), but it promises to be the 
 next Trilby Wash.
 The specimens that I am offering are the remaining slices from

Re: [meteorite-list] Ad: North American meteorite - San Bernardino Wash (L5)

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bob, All,
Just home from a hunt, haven't had the opportunity to reply until now.
 I don't have photos of the other stone/fragments, but I do have a few
photos of SBW#1 on hand:

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/DSCN7095.jpg

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/DSCN7101.jpg

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/comparison.jpg

Is there any evidence for pairing beyond equilibrated L?  As you can
see, that slice looks a bit different.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:
 For those collectors with an interest in North American meteorites,
 I would like to bring your attention to an eBay offering (ending soon) of a 
 classified find from the California Mojave Desert:
 San Bernardino Wash (L5)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/221353605398


 This under-appreciated meteorite promises to become better-known now that
 additional field-work and research results are starting to appear on the 
 Internet:

 https://www.google.com/#q=San+Bernardino+Wash+L5+meteorite+strewn-field

 Although the study of this area is too early to determine the possible TKW of 
 this meteorite,
 it certainly will not rival Gold Basin (L4/6), but it promises to be the next 
 Trilby Wash.
 The specimens that I am offering are the remaining slices from the samples 
 used to determine pairing.
 These two classifications confirmed their pairing to the SBW(L5) 
 type-specimen held at UCLA.
 I will only be offering additional specimens for auction until the cost of 
 this lab-work has been defrayed.
 But, as usual, I will continue to accept requests for samples by any 
 interested researchers.

 Thank you for your interest,
 Bob V.
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Re: [meteorite-list] KATOL (L6) is official

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
Krinov discussed the depressions with raised rims observed on Sikhote
Alines and concluded that they were not impact marks, but were instead
formed when volatile inclusions (relative to Fe-Ni) reached the
surface of the iron and boiled out.  I have seen a few with remnants
of what might be tiny impactors in the center/floor of the pit, but I
do think that they are most likely 'bubbles'...not to burst anyones'
bubbles.

https://picasaweb.google.com/107508108525239417569/Irons?authkey=Gv1sRgCJ6DmIe53MKuGg#5549869672083631618

It would make sense for a chondritic-derived iron to have more
volatile inclusions than a typical iron, so the abundant pits on
Michael's iron make sense.

If what Jeff said is true, Katol would be analogous to other primitive
achondrite groups that show depletions in siderophiles and other more
volatile minerals with increasing degrees of reduction and
recrystallization (e.g. acapulcoites/lodranites, winonaites,
etc.)...though Katol would be more comparable to those groups'
volatile-enriched counterparts, which have yet to be recognized in our
collections.  I don't know that one could determine the origin of the
poikilitic grains in this rock, but, the meteorite has experienced a
significant degree of macroscopic segregation (e.g. there are some
irons, some stones that are ~50/50, and some stones that are
non-magnetic).  If we were talking about typical impact-derived,
ragged metal grains, it would be one thing, but that doesn't appear to
be the case.  Since siderophile enrichment and depletion can happen
without complete recrystallization (e.g. Leedy and some other FeS
depleted chondrites), that in itself isn't a great argument, but those
rocks don't exhibit the same degree of metamorphism or heterogeneity.
And they probably don't exhibit the other anomalies noted by Jeff.

https://picasaweb.google.com/107508108525239417569/NewFallTS?authkey=Gv1sRgCPjn9avbhp2TrwE#5941037918280051250

Field of view is ~4cm.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Graham Ensor graham.en...@gmail.com wrote:
 I think it is almost totally nickel iron and the marks are flow lines
 and small impact pits similar to those you find on Sikhote Alin...

 Graham

 On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 8:30 PM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Or perhaps the sphericals are vesiculation of fusion crust? I agree
 with Jim, it would be nice to see some BSE images.

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Beautiful oriented and flow lines! I assume all the circular and
 spherical shapes are chondrules peeking through the fusion crust?

 Thanks for sharing Mike!

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Jim Wooddell
 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net wrote:
 Thanks Jeff!

 Would love to see a polished window image as well as some BSE images now!
 Maybe Laurence or whoever has them can share!

 If this thing is going to have a paper published we may have to wait!


 Jim






 On 1/1/2014 11:35 AM, Jeff Grossman wrote:

 Mike's photo in posted in the database now.

 Jeff

 On 1/1/2014 1:19 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:


 --
 Jim Wooddell
 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net
 http://pages.suddenlink.net/chondrule/

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Re: [meteorite-list] KATOL (L6) is official

[Jason Utas]

The lab data you (Carl) mention suggests only L, nothing more.  No
one's arguing with that.  We had that data months ago.

As I understand it, not one chondrule was observed optically in Katol;
they were found only when examining BSE images.  This would have ruled
out a chondritic classification prior to the widespread use of SEM's.
And the fact that we're discussing this now is relevant; no other
type 6 chondrite has been metamorphosed to this extent (literally
invisible chondrules, unless you have a multi-million dollar piece of
equipment at your disposal).

Since this meteorite doesn't texturally resemble any known L's, having
been melted and slowly cooled to a poikilitic texture, deeming it an
L6 is pigeonholing it.  Larger-scale heterogeneities resulted in 140
gram iron meteorites and 200+ gram literally metallic-iron-free
meteorites with glossy Ca-rich fusion crusts.  Such things aren't
usually glossed over when classifying a meteorite.

It's just like calling Al Haggounia 001 an aubrite, EL6/7, or EL3.
Just because you can justify a classification with a few parameters
doesn't make it an accurate descriptor of a meteorite.  Which of those
classifications is best?  EL3.  Is it right?  No.  That stone doesn't
texturally resemble any other (enstatite) chondrites of any kind.
It's anomalous.

Rather like Katol.

Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:03 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Hi Mike,

 No doubt an interesting meteorite! I guess I should qualify it by
 saying the oxygen and the olivine and pyroxene geochem data are garden
 variety EOC. I guess looks can be deceiving -- yet another testimony
 to lab data being the blind taste test.

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com 
 wrote:
 Carl, the huge metal nodules, the large green crystals throughout the 
 matrix, very odd meteorites, everyone who looked at it thought it was an 
 achondrite, including many scientists.
 I've never seen an L6 with white matrix and some pieces nearly green with 
 crystals.
 Not your garden variety L6 for sure.
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPad

 On Dec 31, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:

 Super write-up by Laurence Garvie, but strange that there was so much
 mystery surrounding what turns out to be garden variety L6, albeit a
 nice fresh fall. I wonder why people thought it was achondrite-ung?
 Oxygen and geochem are unequivocal EOC, no mystery at all.

 Carl Agee
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Jim Wooddell
 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net wrote:
 Nice GeoChem data.  Interesting to see the XFR data included.


 Happy New Year!

 Jim Wooddell




 On 12/31/2013 8:14 AM, karmaka wrote:

 Dear list members,
  Katol is officially listed as an L6 in the Bulletin now!


 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=Katolsfor=namesants=falls=valids=stype=containslrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmblist=Allrect=phot=snew=0pnt=Normal%20tablecode=58500
  Happy new year 2014 to all of you!
  Martin
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 -
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 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3658/6963 - Release Date: 12/31/13



 --
 Jim Wooddell
 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net
 http://pages.suddenlink.net/chondrule/


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Re: [meteorite-list] KATOL (L6) is official

[Jason Utas]

Hello Carl, All,
The low standard deviation on Fa and Fs denotes a high degree of
equilibration, not just 5 or 6.  Five or above would be more
accurate.  The nearly absent chondrules and high Wo are at [or beyond]
type 6.  If you're a researcher who believes in type 7 chondrites,
since not all do.

Based upon similar observations, one would simply call Al Haggounia
001 an aubrite, or an EL3 if one were lucky enough to find an
unequilibrated chondrule.  The textural observations would be
irrelevant.  If we looked at other meteorites in a similar fashion,
subgroups and textural designations would disappear.

Since nomenclature blows back and forth, this is something of a
semantic argument; as I understand it, the poikilitic shergottite
you recently analyzed would have been a lherzolite only a few years
ago, and no amount of discussion then or now would have changed that.
And there is of course variation in analyses.  NWA 5205 is paired with
NWA 5421 and our NWA 6501.  Which was supposedly paired with NWA 6283.
 Very distinctive material, with classifications ranging from LL3.2 to
LL3.7 to H3.6.

But you did note that the shergottite was poikilitic.  So is Katol.
This stone has been metamorphosed in a unique way for a chondrite, and
its classification required a much greater degree of attention because
of that.  But the result does not reflect that.  Just like Al
Haggounia 001, the aubrite.   It's odd, and I do think that
'pigeonholing' is the right term to use here.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Mike, Andy, Jim,

 I don't have bias one way or another in the case of Katol, but looking
 at the data in the write-up this is a clear-cut L6 chondrite -- no
 ambiguity. There are chondrules albeit highly equilbrated, the
 olivines are L6, the pyroxenes are L6, the oxygen isotopes are
 L-chondrite. If there were no chondrules, high Wo and OC-type olivine
 and pyroxene, then one could make the case for type 7. I'm just going
 by the numbers given in the write-up, I haven't looked at this beyond
 a quick glance in hand specimen, not an achondrite -- period.

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 I was also under the impression that this was transitional likely between L
 chondrites and primitive achondrites.
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Dec 31, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Andy Tomkins rockdo...@gmail.com wrote:

 With great respect and just to be a little bit controversial...  With a high
 wollastonite content in the opx like that, sparse remnant chondrules and
 many of the other features, perhaps this might be a L7? An example of why
 there needs to be a clearer definition of what defines Type 6 from Type 7?

 Andy Tomkins

 On Wednesday, 1 January 2014, Andy Tomkins wrote:



 On Wednesday, 1 January 2014, Carl Agee wrote:

 Hi Mike,

 No doubt an interesting meteorite! I guess I should qualify it by
 saying the oxygen and the olivine and pyroxene geochem data are garden
 variety EOC. I guess looks can be deceiving -- yet another testimony
 to lab data being the blind taste test.

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 wrote:
  Carl, the huge metal nodules, the large green crystals throughout the
  matrix, very odd meteorites, everyone who looked at it thought it was an
  achondrite, including many scientists.
  I've never seen an L6 with white matrix and some pieces nearly green
  with crystals.
  Not your garden variety L6 for sure.
  Michael Farmer
 
  Sent from my iPad
 
  On Dec 31, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 
  Super write-up by Laurence Garvie, but strange that there was so much
  mystery surrounding what turns out to be garden variety L6, albeit a
  nice fresh fall. I wonder why people thought it was achondrite-ung?
  Oxygen and geochem are unequivocal EOC, no mystery at all.
 
  Carl Agee
  *
  Carl B. Agee
  Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
  Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
  MSC03 2050
  University of New Mexico
  Albuquerque NM 87131-1126
 
  Tel: (505) 750-7172
  Fax: (505) 277-3577
  Email: a...@unm.edu
  http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/
 
 
 
  On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Jim Wooddell
  jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net

[meteorite-list] AD: McKinney, Kaufman, Peetz, Miles, Kaffir, Piedade do Bagre many low number NWA 400-800's ending soon on eBay!

[Jason Baker]

Greetings  

Thank you in advance for looking at the meteorites ending soon on eBay from the 
Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection. 

Please let me know if you have any questions.


eBay listings
http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=_ssn=jaypiatekmeteoritecollection_sop=1


Listed Auctions:

McKinney 48.6g L4 Texas USA 1870 slice Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
http://www.ebay.com/itm/McKinney-48-6g-L4-Texas-USA-1870-slice-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221327130721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3388200061

Kaufman 50g L5 Texas USA 1893 slice Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kaffir-c-31-5g-L6-Texas-USA-1980-end-piece-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221330090903?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item33884d2b97

Miles 44.5g IIE Queensland Australia 1992 Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Miles-44-5g-IIE-Queensland-Australia-1992-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-iron-/221331791587?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3388671ee3

Piedade do Bagre 30g IRUNGR Brazil 1922 Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Piedade-do-Bagre-30g-IRUNGR-Brazil-1922-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-iron-/221330161399?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item33884e3ef7

Deelfontein IAB-MG 2.27g Cape Province 1932 Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deelfontein-IAB-MG-2-27g-Cape-Province-1932-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221327211278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3388213b0e

NWA 2388 11.3g CK6 slice 2004 Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection SUPER RARE CK6!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NWA-2388-11-3g-CK6-slice-2004-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-SUPER-RARE-CK6-/221330197374?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item33884ecb7e

Peetz 37.9g L6 Colorado USA January 1937 slice Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Peetz-37-9g-L6-Colorado-USA-January-1937-slice-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-/221330798001?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item338857f5b1

NWA 401 PROV 7.14g end piece 2001 Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NWA-401PROV-7-14g-end-piece-2001-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-provisional-/221331284263?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item33885f6127

NWA 800 1.3g R4 end piece 2001 Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection Rumuruti
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NWA-800-1-3g-R4-end-piece-2001-Jay-Piatek-Meteorite-Collection-Rumuruti-low-wgt-/221331296151?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item33885f8f97

 
And many many more!

 



Regards,
Jason S. Baker
Collection  Manager
The Jay Piatek Meteorite Collection
745 Beachway Drive
Indianapolis, IN  46224-7700
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[meteorite-list] AD: Meteorites for Sale

[Jason Phillips]

Hello List,

I am continuing to sell off a few older collections that have been in
my collection for a long time. Today I am offering some very nice
specimens.


1. Whitecourt, Canada- This 12.92 gram specimen was obtained during my
trip with Rob Wesel and Mike Bandli to the crater. It was sold by Mike
Bandli and has been through several collections before ending up back
in mine. This specimen shows many of the great features that the
Whitecourt meteorite is known for. The price of this specimen is $85.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0525_zps68a629af.jpg

2. Gebel Kamil, Egypt- This is a complete Ataxite specimen weighs in
at 94.50 grams. This is a beautiful specimen with orientation
features. Both specimen cards are present. This specimen is $70.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0523_zps3e63bedd.jpg

3. Unclassified North West Africa specimen from my old stock that I
obtained many years ago. This specimen displays a beautiful desert
varnish and is a nice display piece. It weighs in at 284 grams and
comes with a collection card. The
price of this specimen is $35.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0658_zps8a4b2e4e.jpg

4.  Dronino, Russia- This is a 23 gram slice of the rare
classification Ataxite.  This specimen comes with 3 labels and in a
riker style mount.  There is a touch of rust on the face of this
specimen, but it does not take away from the beauty.  The price is
$15.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0662_zps5972d3cc.jpg

5.  Mundrabilla, Australia-  This beautiful 13.6 gram endcut was
perfectly prepared by Mirko and displays one of the nicest etches I
have ever seen.  This specimen comes in a riker style mount and has
two collection cards.  The price of this
specimen is $35.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0664_zps34cb4b99.jpg

6.  Henbury, Australia- This excellent individual displays orientation
features and weighs in at 4.42 grams.
This specimen comes with two collection cards and comes in a membrane
box.  The price of this
specimen is $20.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0663_zps1725c1f4.jpg

7.  Taza (NWA 859), Morocco-  This specimen is and endcut that is
etched on the face and displays beautifully.  It weighs 4.8 grams and
comes with three collection labels and is mounted in a membrane box.
The price of this specimen is $15.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0660_zps37346174.jpg

8.  Seymchan, Russia-  This 24.50 gram slice is etched on both sides
and makes a beautiful display.  It comes with three collection labels.
 The price of this specimen is $25.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0661_zps3e3dc5ac.jpg

9.  Muonionalusta, Sweden- This is an etched slice with crust that
weighs 48.6 grams.  This specimen comes with three collection labels
and comes in a riker style mount.  The price of this specimen is $35.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0666_zpsff37beb1.jpg




All specimen will be shipped USPS at the buyers expense. All are
guaranteed as stated. If you have any questions please feel free to
contact me.

Thanks,

Jason Phillips

Rocks From Heaven

www.rocksfromheaven.com (educational site)

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[meteorite-list] AD: Meteorites for Sale

[Jason Phillips]

Hello List,

I am continuing to sell off a few older collections that have been in
my collection for a long time. Today I am offering some very nice
specimens.

1. Whitecourt, Canada- This 12.92 gram specimen was obtained during my
trip with Rob Wesel and Mike Bandli to the crater. It was sold by Mike
Bandli and has been through several collections before ending up back
in mine. This specimen shows many of the great features that the
Whitecourt meteorite is known for. The price of this specimen is $85.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0525_zps68a629af.jpg

2. Gebel Kamil, Egypt- This is a complete Ataxite specimen weighs in
at 94.50 grams. This is a beautiful specimen with orientation
features. Both specimen cards are present. This specimen is $70.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0523_zps3e63bedd.jpg

3. Unclassified North West Africa specimen from my old stock that I
obtained many years ago. This specimen displays a beautiful desert
varnish and is a nice display piece. It weighs in at 284 grams and
comes with a collection card. The
price of this specimen is $35.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0658_zps8a4b2e4e.jpg

4.  Dronino, Russia- This is a 23 gram slice of the rare
classification Ataxite.  This specimen comes with 3 labels and in a
riker style mount.  There is a touch of rust on the face of this
specimen, but it does not take away from the beauty.  The price is
$15.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0662_zps5972d3cc.jpg

5.  Mundrabilla, Australia-  This beautiful 13.6 gram endcut was
perfectly prepared by Mirko and displays one of the nicest etches I
have ever seen.  This specimen comes in a riker style mount and has
two collection cards.  The price of this
specimen is $35.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0664_zps34cb4b99.jpg

6.  Henbury, Australia- This excellent individual displays orientation
features and weighs in at 4.42 grams.
This specimen comes with two collection cards and comes in a membrane
box.  The price of this
specimen is $20.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0663_zps1725c1f4.jpg

7.  Taza (NWA 859), Morocco-  This specimen is and endcut that is
etched on the face and displays beautifully.  It weighs 4.8 grams and
comes with three collection labels and is mounted in a membrane box.
The price of this specimen is $15.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0660_zps37346174.jpg

8.  Seymchan, Russia-  This 24.50 gram slice is etched on both sides
and makes a beautiful display.  It comes with three collection labels.
 The price of this specimen is $25.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0661_zps3e3dc5ac.jpg

9.  Muonionalusta, Sweden- This is an etched slice with crust that
weighs 48.6 grams.  This specimen comes with three collection labels
and comes in a riker style mount.  The price of this specimen is $35.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0666_zpsff37beb1.jpg




All specimen will be shipped USPS at the buyers expense. All are
guaranteed as stated. If you have any questions please feel free to
contact me.

Thanks,

Jason Phillips

Rocks From Heaven

www.rocksfromheaven.com (educational site)
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Re: [meteorite-list] Looking for Happy meteorite goodness

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
Gao, Chergach, Pultusk, and other ordinary chondrites often have their
impact melt portions ignored when being characterized.  Chelyabinsk
would be the most recent obvious example of this -- LL5 S4 W0
Except, when you read the petrographic description:

...A significant portion (1/3) of the stones consist of a dark,
fine-grained impact melt containing mineral and chondrule fragments.
Feldspar is well developed and practically isotropic. No high-pressure
phases were found in the impact melt. There are black-colored thin
shock veins in both light and dark lithologies.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=57165

We collectors see impact melt and think it's cool, but it's secondary
information for the classification, I think.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:35 AM, Jim Wooddell
jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net wrote:
 On 10/30/2013 6:02 AM, Marc Fries wrote:

 Let  me try that again with a more accurate Subject line...
 Hi Marc!

 Looking at the pictures and the lack of information in the bulletin, this
 one would be worthy of another stab at classification!  Happy (b) and (c)
 could use some new work too!



 Jim




 On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Marc Fries wrote:

 Howdy all

  I'm looking for a meteorite to buy or borrow for a scientific study.
 Does anyone have a piece of Happy(a)?  It is listed as an H3 but appears to
 be an impact melt, at least in part.  Please contact me off-list at
 mfri...@hotmail.com

 Cheers,
 Marc Fries



 --
 Jim Wooddell
 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net
 http://pages.suddenlink.net/chondrule/


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Re: [meteorite-list] Katol news

[Jason Utas]

Hello Mike,
The data and thin sections I've seen suggest that it is a completely
recrystallized rock with a generally chondritic composition.

Such meteorites have been previously classified as primitive
achondrites, type-7 chondrites, and metachondrites.  I believe the
distinction between these groups is semantic, though most
researchers seem to have opinions regarding the use of particular
names.  Examples of some accepted chemical groups of these meteorites
are acapulcoites/lodranites, winonaites, and possibly 'primitive
enstatite achondrites.'

Basic mineralogy did not rule out an L or H chondrite protolith, so it
could be the first witnessed fall of a thoroughly metamorphosed
ordinary/H chondrite, but it is not an H5.

http://www.geosocindia.org/abstracts/2013/feb/p151-157.pdf

The features noted in the above paper as chondrules could potentially
represent relict chondrules, but I have yet to see anything that I
would deem a chondrule remnant in the (several) thin sections I've
examined...or those images.

American and other scientists are currently working on the stone in
order to classify it.

Regards,
Jason




On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Galactic Stone  Ironworks
meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi List,

 Last night I heard something puzzling.

 A collector/scientist that I know says that he read a paper published
 by GSI that claims Katol is an H5 chondrite.  I asked him for a link
 to the paper or more info on it, and I am still waiting to hear back
 on that.

 In the meantime, this has me wondering.  I have seen a lot of H5
 chondrites over the years.  I have seen fresh H5 falls and weathered
 H5 NWA stones.  I have never seen an H5 (or any H-chondrite) that
 resembles Katol.  I have a hard time believing that this meteorite is
 an H.  The pieces I have seen (many, ranging in size from crumbs to 2+
 grams, whole and fragments) do not look like chondrites at all.  I
 have heard reports of specimens that have chondrules, but I have not
 seen any.  I also heard reports of a specimen that is entirely metal
 and another one with crystalline inclusions.  If those reports are
 credible, and based on the green matrix and crystalline texture, then
 I doubt this is an H-chondrite.

 Does anyone have a link to this GSI paper or more info about it?

 Best regards,

 MikeG

 --
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 Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
 Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
 Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
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Re: [meteorite-list] Possible Ancient Meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Hello Roman, All,
I'm no expert, but...

The vertical view of the vessel is triangular because the pottery
fragments of the lower portion came from a much larger vessel --
probably a bowl or two-handled vessel of some sort, given its apparent
diameter and the thickness of some of the fragments.  The glazed and
delicately-formed lip and neck appear to be from a completely
different vase -- a nice one, at that.  The handle is a bit odd, not
sure about it.

The first question that came to mind after seeing the images is Why
would anyone glue pieces of a large pot together in the form of a much
smaller one?

Upon closer inspection, I began to wonder why an archaeologist would
glue mismatched pieces of glass or glazed pottery, painted and scored
terracotta, and other ceramics of greatly differing thicknesses
together into a triangular shape that (crudely) mimics an amphora's
shape...albeit with one handle.

I'm surprised that anyone carbon-dated the site, given that the
pottery and details of other artifacts are often deemed suitable for
dating purposes.

I had too many questions after reading the provided description.
Sure, pass the fellow along to an expert...

Jason

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Anne Black impact...@aol.com wrote:
 Hello Roman,

 It is really quite simple.
 Since he is in Phoenix AZ, he should go straight to Arizona State University
 (ASU) they have an archaeology department and some of the top meteorite
 experts.
 Perfect place to get answers to all his questions.


 Anne M. Black
 www.IMPACTIKA.com
 impact...@aol.com



 -Original Message-
 From: Roman Jirasek r...@meteoritelabels.com
 To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thu, Sep 12, 2013 8:00 pm
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Possible Ancient Meteorite


 I had an archaeologist email me today asking about custom labels, and also
 if I could help with identifying a possible ancient meteorite he found this
 year.

 I received permission to send this question to my fellow colleagues which
 may
 have more insight into this topic. Read below, or click on link to see his
 photos...
 http://www.meteoritelabels.com/Ancient.htm

 Cheers,
 Roman Jirasek
 www.meteoritelabels.com

 Copied email follows

 I am an Archaeologist and recovered a meteorite in 2013, on private
 property in Sparta Greece. This meteorite was found inside an ancient vase,
 and was buried with human remains. We dated this site to approximately, 220
 BCE to 130 BCE, but have not yet carbon dated the item.

 I do not know of any meteorite falling on or near Sparta Greece.  Since the
 meteorite was found inside an honorary vase, we suspect it was held in high
 regards, and more than likely to remember a battle.

 The only battle recorded that had a meteorite that fell during the battle;
 was with ancient Turkey and the Spartans.

 It actually stopped the battle for two days, thinking it was a sign from the
 gods. Many of the Spartans recovered portions of the meteorite is a sign of
 victory from the God of Mars.

 I have enclosed a picture of the meteorite. Can you tell me? Of any
 meteorites that fell prior to 220 BCE, since we know that was the earliest
 date, since the meteorites was buried with the hoplite soldier.  We assume
 the meteorite obviously fell before that date.

 This would help us, with dating the find.

 Additionally  what would the selling price be if it were to be sold. The
 meteorite?

 Thank you

 Douglas Roth.
 Phoenix, Arizona.
 Sparta archaeology.

 Yes, it is fine to forward the info and pics.

 I don't have any dir links, but can be found, on face book for Douglas
 Rothman Scottsdale, or ancient history on face book for archeology travel
 and tours.

 Douglas Rothman.





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Re: [meteorite-list] Largest Piece So Far of Chelyabinsk Meteorite Found - Is there a photo?

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
The 3.4kg stone was recovered in March or April -- that's when the
first media photos surfaced.  Despite its early recovery, it does seem
to be somewhat weathered; Novato may help to explain that.  The
impact-melted portions of that meteorite showed significant rusting
after only 10 days in the field, while the rest of the meteorite
looked quite fresh.  I'd personally wait for bigger chunks; if a
several-hundred pounder did made it to the lake, it means that
fragments of all sizes in-between (and perhaps larger) should exist
(and will eventually be found?).  That said, the 3.07kg stone is a
beaut, and finding a nicer one would be tough regardless of what comes
to light.  We'll see...
Regards,
Jason


www.fallsandfinds.com


On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Hello Anne and Lister

 That's a nice piece, it looks like it was recovered a few ... few days or 
 months after the fall. Hows much is that bad boy going for?

 As for the big hunk of rock at the bottom of  Chebarkul Lake, I do to wonder 
 how much will be salvageable and worthy for science and if science can learn 
 how water can deteriate meteorites in water? I also wonder if anyone from the 
 list for fun has taken a NWA XXX stone and dropped it in water and watched 
 what happened to the stone over time?

 Shawn Alan
 IMCA 1633
 ebay store
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html
 http://meteoritefalls.com/



 - Original Message -
 From: Anne Black impact...@aol.com
 To: photoph...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Friday, September 6, 2013 3:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Largest Piece So Far of Chelyabinsk Meteorite 
 Found - Is there a photo?

 Hello Shawn and List,

 Since the finder of that 3.4 kg Chelyabinsk is the one who sent the
 picture to me and since he still wants to sell it, I am sure he won't
 mind if I publish the picture again. And here it is:
 http://www.impactika.com/CH-3400.jpg

 And BTW I have the second largest:  3070kg.

 As for the one at the bottom of the lake, after that many months in the
 water, I really wonder what it will look like.

 Anne M. Black
 http://www.impactika.com/
 impact...@aol.com


 -Original Message-
 From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com
 To: Meteorite Central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Fri, Sep 6, 2013 12:54 pm
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Largest Piece So Far of Chelyabinsk Meteorite
 Found - Is there a photo?


 Hello Listers,

 I saw that some one had found a 3.4kg Chelyabinsk and its been
 suggested it the
 largest one found so far? Is this true, and are there any photos of it,
 I have
 tried to look for some and cant find any images of the new main mass.
 Lastly,
 its been said by the Russian authorities that there is a 600kg stone at
 the
 bottom of Chebarkul Lake, if recovered, I wonder what that will do to
 the price
 of the Chelyabinsk in the open market?

 Shawn Alan
 IMCA 1633
 ebay store
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html
 http://meteoritefalls.com/
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[meteorite-list] AD: Large Chelyabinsk

[Jason Phillips]

Hello List,
I am selling a museum quality specimen of Chelyabinsk, one of the
greatest falls in the history of meteorites.  As you have seen,
specimens over 500 grams are almost non-existent, especially those
that contain the dual lithology (IMB and LL5 chondrite material) that
is so beautiful in slice form.  This specimen appears to contain the
dual lithology, and weighs in at 510 grams with ~98% crust (primary
and secondary).  The documentation supporting this find is historic
and will only add to the long term value of this specimen.
Accompanying this specimen is a copy of the original letter from the
finder, the exact coordinates of this find (which is very rare for
this fall), and shipping paperwork.  The find coordinates have been
submitted to Svend Buhl for submission into his wonderful work on the
Chelyabinsk fall, and buyer's name will also be given to Svend for
this find.  If the buyer chooses to make slices, these would most
likely be the largest slices on the market, therefore commanding a
true premium.  I am open to discussions on this specimen, but I am
confident in saying this piece is available for the lowest price
offered on the open market, as far as I have been able to see, and the
documentation is outstanding.  Please contact me with any questions,
and enjoy the photos.


http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Chelyabinsk/SANY0541_zpse08304cf.jpg
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Chelyabinsk/SANY0540_zps27d6a1cc.jpg
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Chelyabinsk/SANY0539_zps0d28b670.jpg
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Chelyabinsk/SANY0538_zpsfbc581c3.jpg
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Chelyabinsk/SANY0537_zpseec749b1.jpg
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Chelyabinsk/SANY0536_zpsddeac714.jpg
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/Chelyabinsk/SANY0535_zps7f3bb184.jpg


Take Care,
Jason Phillips
Rocks from Heaven
www.rocksfromheaven.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

[Jason Utas]

Woah, rude and condescending.  I don't think I've ever told anyone
that a public list post 'wasn't their business.'

Anyway, I'd like to point out the following:

1) Since you're claiming a record based on the difference between the
two (a slice versus a slab), a formal definition must be made.  E.g. a
slice becomes a slab when the thickness becomes __% of the specimen's
cross-sectional area.  Or something like that.  If you don't even know
what criteria define a slice, you can't reasonably claim that
someone made the largest one.

Which is clear when you consider the obvious: Marlin may hold a
'larger record,' having cut a larger/thicker slice in the past.  Or a
NASA technician might hold the record, from a slice/slab cut in the
70's, or later.  Which brings me to my next point.

2) Since we're talking about the largest slice ever *cut,* later
subdivision shouldn't matter.  Cutting a slice is a technical
operation, the difficulty of which is not altered by later subdivision
of the specimen.  If we're talking about the largest slice *in
existence,* that's a different record.

3) The definition of the record also relies upon the definition of
largest.  You've made it clear that NWA 5000 is less dense than the
Apollo sample in question, so your self-serving definition of
largest relies upon the surface area of a slice, not its weight.
Meteorites' value is most often determined by their weight, so this
seems a little odd to me.

I'm glad you were able to find and state (later) that the slice cut
from NWA 5000 is currently, definitively thicker than the one cut from
Apollo sample 61016.  New information is always nice.

That said, the dimensions you quote are the current ones, so one would
need to look into the largest slice/slab ever *cut* at NASA, if that's
what the record is for.  Either way, Marlin would hold the record for
cutting the 3kg slice (not the 1.1 kg slice) if he does hold the
record.  You might as well be fair about it.

4) Shawn makes a fair point that is somewhat tangential; cutting a
large pallasite, iron, or chondrite is probably more difficult,
rendering this an odd record to make note of.  While lunar slabs of a
kilo or two may not be common, meteorite slices of this size are
abundant.  I wouldn't necessarily call one of them a token, but a
Campo slab of that size or weight would probably cost hundreds of
dollars, and would be a more difficult cutting and preparation job.
And then there are the Fukang, Seymchan, Mundrabilla, and Cape York
slices, often in excess of a meter in at least one dimension.  Much
more difficult to do.

Seems like a publicity stunt to me, which I have no problem with, but
you should probably iron out the details first.

Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:39 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 We are talking about a Moon rock here and yes, there are official world 
 records involved.


 1,116.78 grams, a token?  What planet are you from?


 Dislodged pieces of the Moon are the most coveted of all according to the 
 Smithsonian.  Most Americans consider the NASA Apollo collection of Moon 
 rocks more valuable than the gold in Fort Knox.  I think they represent one 
 of mans greatest achievements and are a national treasure but this is just my 
 opinion.  Some may think the missions to the Moon were just trivial and the 
 rocks brought back are just tokens.


 Adam



 - Original Message -
 From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com
 To: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com; Meteorite Central 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 11:26 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

 Interesting...

 I didn't know there was a lunar world record slice contest. I mean 1,116.78 
 grams - 238mm X 218mm X 14mm of NWA 5000 would

 be nice to have. But there are many other meteorite slices or whole slices

 that make the 1,116.78 look like token.

 Also its seem this record is for whole slice, a slice is a slice :)

 I wonder what is the world record slice :) I have seen some beautiful Brenham 
 slices at Bonhams auctions and those suckers were big.

 Any whos, if the slice is cute to make it smaller, then wouldn't it make the 
 world record void?

 At any rate, I wish I had that in my collection :) great job.


 Shawn Alan
 IMCA 1633
 ebay store
 http://stores.ebay.com/imca1633ny?_rdc=1
 http://meteoritefalls.com/
 




 From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!


 Hello Adam,
 Your statements confuse me.  At what point is a slice no longer a
 slice, but a slab, and at which point does later subdivision of a
 slice/slab render it not worthwhile to record the original
 slice/slab's weight for purposes of deeming it a record-breaking cut

Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
I hate to rain on the parade, but I'd do some research before making
'record-breaking' claims.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/61016.pdf

I don't know how much the largest slabs of Apollo material weigh(ed),
but they were/are sizable.  And I don't even know if the huge slabs in
the above document were/are the largest they cut.

This isn't my project, so I don't feel particularly inclined to ask
NASA how large their largest slices of lunar material weigh(ed).

Either way the old record probably goes to NASA. Marlin could hold a
new record having cut a 1.1 kg slice, but that's questionable given
the photos in the above article, if nothing else.

Regards,
Jason


www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net wrote:
 Hi Mike,

 I am glad you asked for images of the Northwest Africa 5000 complete slices,
 here are a few to get you started and I can share more as time allows...
 http://www.naturesvault.net/meteorites/nwa5000.html

 The sequence of slices liberated from the original 11.528 kilo mass start
 with CS1 (the 'Ambassador' slice), then CS2, CS3, and so forth to CS6. The
 slice on today's Meteorite Picture of the Day is CS3. Side 'b' of each slice
 goes deeper into the mass and the surface area of the slices become even
 larger than the previous slice.

 The 483.89 gram 'Mona Lisa of Moon Rocks' slice will start its world tour at
 the 2013 Ensisheim Show this Friday and continue on to the Sainte Marie aux
 Mines show if it is still available. I will also be bringing a selection of
 smaller slices that are gorgeous!

 If you are going to the Ensisheim Show, or are still contemplating it, this
 complete slice of NWA 5000 looks incredibly better in person as attempts to
 capture its beauty by mere photos are very difficult.

 I hope to see you all there!

 Best Regards,
 Greg

 
 Greg Hupé
 The Hupé Collection
 gmh...@centurylink.net
 www.NaturesVault.net (Online Catalog  Reference Site)
 www.LunarRock.com (Online Planetary Meteorite Site)
 NaturesVault (Facebook, Pinterest  eBay)
 http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
 http://pinterest.com/NaturesVault
 IMCA 3163
 
 Click here for my current eBay auctions:
 http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault



 -Original Message- From: Galactic Stone  Ironworks
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 5:06 PM
 To: Adam Hupe
 Cc: Adam
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!


 Hi Adam,

 I think I speak for many on the List when I say this :

 PHOTOS!  And LOTS of them.  Every angle.  High-res.  Close-ups of
 interesting clasts.  Inquiring minds wanna see eye candy.  :)

 Best regards,

 MikeG

 --
 -
 Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
 Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
 Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
 Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
 Blog - http://www.galactic-stone.com/blog
 -


 On 6/17/13, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:



 A big congratulations should go out to Marlin Cilz who prepared five new
 NWA
 5000 complete slices.  He broke a world record which I previously held for
 5-1/2 years for preparing the single complete slice known as the
 Ambassador.  I never disclosed the record while I held it but it is for
 producing the world's largest Moon rock slice.  It is doubtful that
 anybody
 will break Marlin's new record anytime soon,

 The record.is:

 NWA 5000 Complete Slice:
 1,116.78 grams - 238mm X 218mm X 14mm

 My brother, Greg and I would have never had Marlin produce a slice this
 big
 hadn't it been for a custom order.

 Marlin did a world class job of preparing these slices and I wanted to
 thank
 him publicly.


 Adam Hupe
 The Hupe Planetary Collection





 
 From: valpar...@aol.com valpar...@aol.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 12:00 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day


 Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: NWA 5000

 Contributed by: Greg and Adam Hupe

 http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp
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 Visit

Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

[Jason Utas]

Hello Adam,
Your statements confuse me.  At what point is a slice no longer a
slice, but a slab, and at which point does later subdivision of a
slice/slab render it not worthwhile to record the original
slice/slab's weight for purposes of deeming it a record-breaking cut?

It seems like you're using a very specific definition of complete
slice to deem this a record-breaking event.  Though, not knowing the
weight of the largest slice/slab of 61016 (or other lunar samples), I
find such proclamations...odd.

As to who cares? -- apparently you do, since you're making the claims.

I'm all for publicity, but if one's going to make claims regarding
quantitative numbers, one should be able to back them up -- and
probably have the weights of the largest previously cut Apollo sample
slices/slabs on hand to support it.  Eyeing a photo and saying it
looks like it weighs less doesn't quite cut it.

I can speak for Marlin's fine work, and have no doubt he did a fine
job on the slices.  But that's beside the point.

Regards,
Jason



www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Jason,


 I looked at the link and what you are calling a complete slice is a slab.  If 
 we are going for the world record slab cut, then Marlin still has it.

 The largest slab cut from NWA 5000 was as follows:

 3,538 grams
 238mm X 219mm X 52mm

 Of course, this slab was subdivided into five of the worlds largest Lunar 
 complete slices which was the intent from the beginning.  Just like NASA 
 always intended to subdivide the 61016 slab for testing.  I would estimate 
 the 61016 slab to be less than half the size and weight of the NWA 5000 slab 
 that Marlin produced.

 Who cares?  Marlin did a wonderful preparation job and is to be commended on 
 a new world record!


 Adam









 - Original Message -
 From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 To: Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net
 Cc: Galactic Stone  Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com; Adam Hupe 
 raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Meteorite-list 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 3:49 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

 Hello All,
 I hate to rain on the parade, but I'd do some research before making
 'record-breaking' claims.

 http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/61016.pdf

 I don't know how much the largest slabs of Apollo material weigh(ed),
 but they were/are sizable.  And I don't even know if the huge slabs in
 the above document were/are the largest they cut.

 This isn't my project, so I don't feel particularly inclined to ask
 NASA how large their largest slices of lunar material weigh(ed).

 Either way the old record probably goes to NASA. Marlin could hold a
 new record having cut a 1.1 kg slice, but that's questionable given
 the photos in the above article, if nothing else.

 Regards,
 Jason


 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net wrote:
 Hi Mike,

 I am glad you asked for images of the Northwest Africa 5000 complete slices,
 here are a few to get you started and I can share more as time allows...
 http://www.naturesvault.net/meteorites/nwa5000.html

 The sequence of slices liberated from the original 11.528 kilo mass start
 with CS1 (the 'Ambassador' slice), then CS2, CS3, and so forth to CS6. The
 slice on today's Meteorite Picture of the Day is CS3. Side 'b' of each slice
 goes deeper into the mass and the surface area of the slices become even
 larger than the previous slice.

 The 483.89 gram 'Mona Lisa of Moon Rocks' slice will start its world tour at
 the 2013 Ensisheim Show this Friday and continue on to the Sainte Marie aux
 Mines show if it is still available. I will also be bringing a selection of
 smaller slices that are gorgeous!

 If you are going to the Ensisheim Show, or are still contemplating it, this
 complete slice of NWA 5000 looks incredibly better in person as attempts to
 capture its beauty by mere photos are very difficult.

 I hope to see you all there!

 Best Regards,
 Greg

 
 Greg Hupé
 The Hupé Collection
 gmh...@centurylink.net
 www.NaturesVault.net (Online Catalog  Reference Site)
 www.LunarRock.com (Online Planetary Meteorite Site)
 NaturesVault (Facebook, Pinterest  eBay)
 http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
 http://pinterest.com/NaturesVault
 IMCA 3163
 
 Click here for my current eBay auctions:
 http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault



 -Original Message- From: Galactic Stone  Ironworks
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 5:06 PM
 To: Adam Hupe
 Cc: Adam
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!


 Hi Adam,

 I think I speak for many on the List when I say this :

 PHOTOS!  And LOTS of them.  Every angle.  High-res.  Close-ups of
 interesting clasts.  Inquiring minds wanna see eye candy.  :)

 Best regards,

 MikeG

Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bill, Brandon, All,
Given the seller, I'm surprised anyone would consider it without a
very good photographic record of provenance.  Could be Mifflin: looks
better than most of the H-chondrite misrepresented material that was
going around.  But the same seller recently sold off-looking Nuevo
Mercurio and Chelyabinsk, and has a documented history of mixing
things up.
Wouldn't touch it, myself.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:41 PM, bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com wrote:
 That slice seemed reasonable. I'm surprised it didn't sell.


 
 From: b1dunov...@aol.com
 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 09:52:09 -0500
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

 All,

 I wondered if anybody might offer some input or opinions on a 8.26g slice of 
 Mifflin currently for sale on eBay.

 http://tiny.cc/tugmyw

 Great price if as stated.. but is it or not?

 Thanks,
 Brandon D.
 IMCA# 9312
 __

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Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bill, Brandon, Mendy, all,
Honestly, this slice doesn't look bad.  If you compare the breccias:

(real, from a stone found by Sonny Clary)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MUSEUM-QUALITY-CRUSTED-FULL-SLICE-MAGNIFICENT-MIFFLIN-METEORITE-L5-12-57-GMS-/200687083720?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item2eb9e1e0c8

(?)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MIFFLIN-L5-METEORITE-8-26g-BEAUTIFUL-CRUSTED-SLICE-WITNESSED-FALL-4-14-2010-/271220743348?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3f26041cb4nma=truesi=jHrsL50utK2qqpfbNFqr9%252BcmQSM%253Dorig_cvip=truert=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It looks good.  The textures are close, if not identical.  But, we
know the same seller sliced and sold an unclassified NWA L/LL as
Amgala (proven via photographic comparison of sister slices by another
list-member).  And, we know the variety of NWAs available.  It would
be tough to find a match this good.  But not impossible.

Mendy suggested Ash Creek -- they're close, but the brecciated portion
of Ash Creek is almost always a lighter grey color and the
unbrecciated lasts look a little more homogenous (makes sense, since
Ash Creek is an L6 and Mifflin's an L5).  Definitely discernible in a
line-up of photos.

Meh.  If I really wanted a slice of Mifflin, I'd probably buy this
slice.  But I'd scrutinize the hell of out of it, ask him for his
source, and verify provenance as far as I could with photos, weights,
invoices, etc.  Not a purchase I'd personally consider.  But it is
cheap - if it's real.

Jason



www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Bill,

 To Jason's point, is this past auction Ash Creek, Mifflin or something else: 
 http://bit.ly/13FM9Aw?

 Compare this Ash Creek to the present Mifflin being discussed.


 Mendy Ouzillou


 - Original Message -
 From: bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com
 To: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

 Let's forget the seller for the moment. Why is this not Mifflin and what
 other material do you think it could be?

 Thanks,
 Bill

 --
  Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:15:43 -0700
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay
  From: meteorite...@gmail.com
  To: parkforest...@hotmail.com
  CC: b1dunov...@aol.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

  Hello Bill, Brandon, All,
  Given the seller, I'm surprised anyone would consider it without a
  very good photographic record of provenance. Could be Mifflin: looks
  better than most of the H-chondrite misrepresented material that was
  going around. But the same seller recently sold off-looking Nuevo
  Mercurio and Chelyabinsk, and has a documented history of mixing
  things up.
  Wouldn't touch it, myself.
  Regards,
  Jason

  www.fallsandfinds.com


  On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:41 PM, bill kies
 parkforest...@hotmail.com wrote:
  That slice seemed reasonable. I'm surprised it didn't sell.


  
  From: b1dunov...@aol.com
  Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 09:52:09 -0500
  To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
  Subject: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

  All,

  I wondered if anybody might offer some input or opinions on a 8.26g
 slice of Mifflin currently for sale on eBay.

  http://tiny.cc/tugmyw

  Great price if as stated.. but is it or not?

  Thanks,
  Brandon D.
  IMCA# 9312
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  Meteorite-list mailing list
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Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

[Jason Utas]

To answer Bill and Mike,
That smaller slice looks good for Ash Creek to me, and the larger
(supposed Mifflin) looks about right to me as well.  Yes, they're
similar, but...a little different.

The original Lonestar Meteorites fellow was somewhat obscure,
definitely on the up-and-up.   But, John Bryan Scarborough switched
his ebay handle to a similar name some months ago.  Documented
misrepresented material has included Deport, Ash Creek, Mifflin, and
Oum Dreyga.  Off-looking specimens that were never analytically
verified have included several others.

Even experienced, well-regarded dealers make mistakes from time to
time, but at some point it's just a bit much...

Jason


www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 The fact that the label is for Springwater seems to be a problem to me.
 I also think it is more likely Ash Creek.
 Who is Lonestar meteorites? Wasn't that a known scammer?
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 13, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello Bill, Brandon, Mendy, all,
 Honestly, this slice doesn't look bad.  If you compare the breccias:

 (real, from a stone found by Sonny Clary)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MUSEUM-QUALITY-CRUSTED-FULL-SLICE-MAGNIFICENT-MIFFLIN-METEORITE-L5-12-57-GMS-/200687083720?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item2eb9e1e0c8

 (?)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MIFFLIN-L5-METEORITE-8-26g-BEAUTIFUL-CRUSTED-SLICE-WITNESSED-FALL-4-14-2010-/271220743348?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3f26041cb4nma=truesi=jHrsL50utK2qqpfbNFqr9%252BcmQSM%253Dorig_cvip=truert=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 It looks good.  The textures are close, if not identical.  But, we
 know the same seller sliced and sold an unclassified NWA L/LL as
 Amgala (proven via photographic comparison of sister slices by another
 list-member).  And, we know the variety of NWAs available.  It would
 be tough to find a match this good.  But not impossible.

 Mendy suggested Ash Creek -- they're close, but the brecciated portion
 of Ash Creek is almost always a lighter grey color and the
 unbrecciated lasts look a little more homogenous (makes sense, since
 Ash Creek is an L6 and Mifflin's an L5).  Definitely discernible in a
 line-up of photos.

 Meh.  If I really wanted a slice of Mifflin, I'd probably buy this
 slice.  But I'd scrutinize the hell of out of it, ask him for his
 source, and verify provenance as far as I could with photos, weights,
 invoices, etc.  Not a purchase I'd personally consider.  But it is
 cheap - if it's real.

 Jason



 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Bill,

 To Jason's point, is this past auction Ash Creek, Mifflin or something 
 else: http://bit.ly/13FM9Aw?

 Compare this Ash Creek to the present Mifflin being discussed.


 Mendy Ouzillou


 - Original Message -
 From: bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com
 To: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

 Let's forget the seller for the moment. Why is this not Mifflin and what
 other material do you think it could be?

 Thanks,
 Bill

 --
 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:15:43 -0700
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay
 From: meteorite...@gmail.com
 To: parkforest...@hotmail.com
 CC: b1dunov...@aol.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

 Hello Bill, Brandon, All,
 Given the seller, I'm surprised anyone would consider it without a
 very good photographic record of provenance. Could be Mifflin: looks
 better than most of the H-chondrite misrepresented material that was
 going around. But the same seller recently sold off-looking Nuevo
 Mercurio and Chelyabinsk, and has a documented history of mixing
 things up.
 Wouldn't touch it, myself.
 Regards,
 Jason

 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:41 PM, bill kies
 parkforest...@hotmail.com wrote:
 That slice seemed reasonable. I'm surprised it didn't sell.


 
 From: b1dunov...@aol.com
 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 09:52:09 -0500
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

 All,

 I wondered if anybody might offer some input or opinions on a 8.26g
 slice of Mifflin currently for sale on eBay.

 http://tiny.cc/tugmyw

 Great price if as stated.. but is it or not?

 Thanks,
 Brandon D.
 IMCA# 9312
 __

 Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Misabled/ poorly advertized meteorites

[Jason Utas]

Hm.  I said as much when I saw the Bondoc label on facebook some days
ago.  My comment describing the issue with the label has since been
removed by Martin.

The labels are computer-printed (notice the bottom of every g
missing on the Bondoc label) and the font and underlining is wrong for
AML labels.  The pictured labels even use the typical European  , 
instead of a  .  when describing the weights of the specimens [
xxx,x grams ].  And then there's the glossy paper...

Painfully obvious fakes, probably made in Europe given the punctuation.

I wonder where they came from...and why my observations were not only
ignored, but erased.

Jason



www.fallsandfinds.com


On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 I'm pretty sure the piece sold as Estherville is not a meteorite as well. It 
 certainly does not match up with my other Estherville pieces.
 I would like to know where this material originated. The labels are fake, and 
 I am highly disappointed that this stuff has entered the market.

 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPad

 On May 31, 2013, at 9:24 PM, Jeff Kuyken i...@meteorites.com.au wrote:

 Hi Mike, all,

 As an Aussie, I can say with 100% absolute certainty that this isn't
 Murchison. It's not even close. In fact, I'm actually wondering it's a
 meteorite at all as it looks more like some type of porphyritic rock. The
 only meteorite I have seen that looks even remotely like this would be a CV3
 dark inclusion. But the rectangular fragment on the back side doesn't bode
 well for a chondritic meteorite either. It would be easier to tell
 in-person.

 Cheers,

 Jeff


 -Original Message-
 From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael
 Farmer
 Sent: Saturday, 1 June 2013 12:52 PM
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Misabled/ poorly advertized meteorites

 Martin,

 I am sorry but this IS NOT Murchison, and the Estherville IS NOT
 Estherville.
 I emailed you regarding the Murchison and the fact that the photos clearly
 show an NWA type old carbonaceous chondrite only minutes after you posted to
 the list, and got no response.
 Anyone who has ever laid eyes on Murchison knows that it does not have
 desert varnish on the outside, nor white chondrules and CAI's on a CV3
 matrix.
 I feel sorry for whoever got burned on that one. You advertised the low
 price, I guess it is low because it is not Murchison.

 anyone reading this, feel free to speak up and tell us how this Murchison
 looks compared to real Murchison.
 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_004.JPG
 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_003.JPG
 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_001.JPG


 I bought the Estherville which you claim is from American Meteorite
 Laboratory.
 I assumed since you advertised and showed a label that it was real, I was
 reading my email on an iphone while at the Laboratory in ASU, I showed the
 photo of the Murchison to the people in the lab who just laughed.
 My spider senses were not in order obviously because I went ahead and paid
 for the Estherville. I received it today, and it is NOT Estherville, I am
 pretty certain it is not a meteorite. The crust looks fake, or slaggy. I
 have more than 50 pieces of Estherville all from British Museum and
 Smithsonian, and this isn't close. Furthemore the lable is nothing more than
 a printed piece of paper laminated.
 I have the Nininger and Huss collections of meteorites books, and
 Estherville under Nininger is #42, Huss is H230. Again, some homework on my
 part would have caused me to not purchase this piece, but the price was good
 and I thought it would sell fast (I bought it in seconds). It is a firm
 reminder that something too cheap to be true, isn't!

 You piece has no number on the stone (
 Nininger and Huss both would have matched the number on the label and
 painted it on the stone).
 And the AML number on the fake label is not matched up to their normal
 numbers (yours is (2) 680.501. This is not a Nininger or Huss number

 You claim in your email (attached with this one below for all to read), that
 these pieces have their passports IE American Meteorite Laboratory labels
 as provenance, yet you deliver to me a fake printed laminated label done on
 a computer.
 Martin, this is NOT PROVENANCE, this is pretty much outright FRAUD!

 I know you have been doing meteorites for a while, and I know Murchison is
 easily one of the easiest meteorites to identify, so I have to question what
 is going on when such a false piece can pass the hands of such an
 experienced seller?
 This Estherville is not an Estherville, it is not a Nininger or Huss piece
 as advertised, and I do not think it is even a meteorite.
 I put in a request for refund via paypal, and now I am making the same
 request publically.
 I don't know where you got these but you got burned.

 I will deliver it by hand

Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described

[Jason Utas]

If you take Bondoc, the specimen numbers are absolutely consistent with all
the numbers of the Huss-Bondocs offered by Geoff Notkin, or at Arnaud in the
Tricottet Collection or on Murray’s fine new collection site or those Peter
Marmet showed us.

Yes, but the rear (and cut face of it) look like slag compared to
other Bondocs on the market.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0_nkw=bondoc+meteorite_sacat=0_from=R40

There are a variety of textures, but none so porous, and the knobbly
back and metal distribution look rather like slag.  Such observations
are not conclusive, but...meh.

I'd return or ditch the material.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi Mike and all,


 it’s really always sad, to experience, what internet did to some, regarding
 communication, couth and manners.
 As told yesterday to you, as you are obviously not content with the
 specimen, we offered you to send in back and to refund you.
 Your temper and your readiness to doom and damn each and everyone in public,
 as soon as an opportunity shows up, is legendary on that list here,
 as the archives tell manifold and that behavior caused so many new
 collectors to turn their backs on to their new hobby, when they read your
 endless flame wars here on the list, because they had imagined meteorite
 collecting more august than to witness brawls on the fish-market.

 Here you can observe a difference about Andi’s and my notion of the
 meteorite scene, we never took advantage in trying to badmouth you, when you
 sold e.g. a “Bensour” of 85g to S.A. which landed with your label at M.V.,
 who asked you again and you identified it without doubts as Bensour, but
 after he cut it, it turned out to be H and rather a Bassikonou.

 To the specimens.
 They originally stem from an old private collection from Hungary. A
 collection from pre-desert times.
 As you might remember even from the times, when you were still peddling with
 your little bag with your sales inventory from client to client,
 in former times, the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s – the idea of
 “pedigree”-collecting wasn’t born yet, the fascination emanating from the
 specimens  themselves, the fact that they were meteorites, was for the
 collectors overwhelming enough, so that they did not need the little
 extra-boost of having a written note, from whom they had acquired them
 (because they knew it anyway). Hence they were proud on the specimens as
 they were now their specimens, so they wrote their own labels and threw
 often the labels of the sellers/source away.
 I don’t know how many specimens you acquired from private collections of
 these times, but you will agree, that the majority of such specimens comes
 without any label or they come with the label of the collector, and we at
 least had dozens of cases, where the old original label was preserved, but
 where the collector had cut off the part with the name of the dealer or the
 museum.
 Here with these two specimens of Estherville and Bondoc, it was a luck, that
 the labels – why the collector enlarged and laminated once them we don’t
 know, maybe for his collection filing box – gave the hint, where the
 collector once had acquired them from.
 They were Huss specimens. And Huss at that time wasn’t the glorified
 successor of Nininger, he was nothing else than a dealer for his
 contemporaries, just like today, a Hupe, a Haiderer or a Cottingham for us.

 If you take Bondoc, the specimen numbers are absolutely consistent with all
 the numbers of the Huss-Bondocs offered by Geoff Notkin, or at Arnaud in the
 Tricottet Collection or on Murray’s fine new collection site or those Peter
 Marmet showed us.
 Btw. none of these is listed in the both Huss-catalogues, none of these got
 a number painted on the surface by Huss.
 (We would have expected you to know that, as U.S.-expert)

 As told, we are convinced of the authenticity of the specimens, as well as
 those esteemed list members, who had them already in their hands.
 And as it is our policy, we offer always a return to our private buyers.
 So thank you Anne, Jeff and Mike for your efforts, to keep the “Market”
 clean, but we don’t see yet any reason for hysteria.
 (Aside from the likeliness, that we after 33 years of meteorite collecting
 and 10+ years meteorite dealing, would have nothing better to do,
 than to forge Esthervilles and Bondocs and to fake a legend, to sell them at
 those cheapest prices we did).

 However, and there you most probably will agree,
 we see no sense in a written theoretical discussion here on the list, but
 like it the sober way.
 You’ll bring the Estherville to Ensisheim, we got so many requests for that
 very specimen and there are so many experts,
 who will identify it as that, what it is, that we won’t be in no way
 reluctant or shy to show the specimen to each and everyone,
 who wants.
 Therefore we will adjourn the further theatre

[meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust

[Jason Utas]

 and not other L/LL
chondrites.  Either way, something novel is going on.

Regards,
Jason


www.fallsandfinds.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust

[Jason Utas]

Hola,
Looking at his pagethe Buzzard is red to a much lesser extent.
Good observation, though -- it makes sense that H's would still show
at least some hematite presence, if that is was causes the red
coloration.

The first link in my last email goes against what you say above.  Note
that the pictured stone has a black, frothy rear and a reddish
shield-shaped front.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi,

But, then...why don't H chondrites usually form such red fusion crusts?

 But they do,
 the example on Svend's page is a Buzzard Coulee, and in literature you read
 it about Pultusk.

This list seems to have a short memory.

 Well, the specialty here, is that a colour variation in the crust, if found
 only on one side, can be used as criterion for orientation. Most of the
 examples shown here, underline, that stones must have had at least a longer
 phase of stable flight, because it is indicated by the lipping around the
 edges of these sides. (Which identify the coloured sides as backsides).

 Best,
 Martin


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[meteorite-list] AD: Meteorites for Sale

[Jason Phillips]

Hello List,

I am going to be selling off a few older collections over the next
several months, along with some older NWA stock that I personally
obtained over the years. Today I am offering some very nice specimens.

1. Claxton, Georgia- This specimen is a .156 gram polished part slice
that Adam Hupe did an excellent job preparing several years ago. It
come with all 3 labels and a membrane box. Price is $80.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0529_zpsae970c64.jpg

2. Whitecourt, Canada- This 12.92 gram specimen was obtained during my
trip with Rob Wesel and Mike Bandli to the crater. It was sold by Mike
Bandli and has been through several collections before ending up back
in mine. This specimen shows many of the great features that the
Whitecourt meteorite is known for. The price of this specimen is $120.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0525_zps68a629af.jpg

3. Gebel Kamil, Egypt- This is a complete Ataxite specimen weighs in
at 94.50 grams. This is a beautiful specimen with orientation
features. Both specimen cards are present. This specimen is $90.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0523_zps3e63bedd.jpg

4. Unclassified North West Africa specimen from my old stock that I
obtained many years ago. This specimen displays a beautiful desert
varnish and is a nice display piece. It weighs in at 374 grams. The
price of this specimen is $50.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0519_zps659c0543.jpg



5. NWA 6947, Morocco- This fragmented specimen weighs in at 955 grams.
I obtained all of the material from this find and it was classified by
Tony Irving back in 2011. What makes this material unique is the
interior has a reddish tint to it and when cut it appears to be
bleeding. The price on this specimen is $70.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/SANY0511_zps24d862db.jpg



6. Gibeon, Namibia- This is a part end cut specimen weighing in at
36.3 grams that has been etched and is beautiful. It will come with
all 3 specimen cards, and the Riker mount.

http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w589/jnbran/3179fca8-ab0f-49ed-8c9c-4d373b45aa5e_zpsd71733e2.jpg



All specimen will be shipped USPS at the buyers expense. All are
guaranteed as stated. If you have any questions please feel free to
contact me.

Thanks,

Jason Phillips

Rocks From Heaven

www.rocksfromheaven.com (educational site)
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[meteorite-list] New Fall in Namibia!

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
This turned up today:

http://www.hitradio.com.na/9-5-2013-nachrichten-am-abend/

This morning around 4:00 clock is a meteorite about 10km outside of
Outapi toward Onesimus, pitched region in northern Namibia in the
Omusati. The meteorite is the size of a tennis ball. According to
eyewitnesses, Olaff Marais, a white light lit up the night sky. It was
heard a loud roar and then a bang. There were no persons injured or
property damaged. The police have cordoned off the crash site wide
area. You can find pictures on the hit radio Namibia Facebook page.

Looks good.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
What Mendy said is correct.
There is a $1 million minimum in online sales in the current draft
(indisputable fact), and some politicians have suggested raising it to
$10 million.  In other words, unless you gross over a million dollars
in online sales, you will not have to collect or pay this tax.

http://www.extremetech.com/internet/154397-us-senate-inches-closer-to-approving-historic-internet-sales-tax-bill

[You can find better sources online, but this ^ summarizes things
pretty well.]

Adam's point is somewhat moot, as sales tax is nothing new for most
brick-and-mortar businesses.  And we have only one such meteorite
store in existence, to my knowledge (Steve Arnold's shop in Arkansas).
 I'm not certain as to how businesses like this would have to deal
with the new internet tax, but since in-state online sales are already
taxed (even from small independent, online-only sellers), I can't see
this as being very important.  The $1,000,000 online sales minimum
might apply to tangible businesses as well.  I'm not sure; that would
take some looking into.

Unless meteorite dealers make more than $1,000,000 per year in online
sales, they can relax.  I'm not a fan of this bill, but it will not
affect my selling much.  I might buy some more run-of-the-mill things
at tangible stores if this goes into effect, but there's no real risk
of people doing that with meteorites.  If anything, this will probably
encourage me to buy from smaller, independent sellers online.  Thanks
to the million dollar minimum, they will still be tax-free.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Don't let politicians fool you.  They are talking about taxing at the 
 point-of-sale, meaning where the item is shipped from.  In this case, 
 possibly somebodies living room or garage!  If you own a brick and mortar 
 Meteorite Store, you are already expected to collect these taxes including 
 100% of sales online. There is no one million dollar annual sales exemption.  
 There aren't too many dealers that own a storefront so at this point in time, 
 they are alright but this could change very shortly.


 Just like the Affordable Healthcare Act is the largest tax increase in U.S. 
 history and it was sneakily forced upon American citizens.  Just wait until 
 2014.  A lot of people who simply cannot afford healthcare will be fined on 
 top of the massive tax increases.

 Adam





 - Original Message -
 From: Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com
 To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Met-List 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 1:47 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

 Adam,


 Very timely post. I just read the following article (http://reut.rs/ZBTsVY). 
 Regardless whether the bill passes or not, the impact on almost ALL meteorite 
 dealers is nil. Here is the key excerpt from the article, It would also 
 exempt merchants with online annual out-of-state sales of $1 million or less.

 I am personally on my way to $1M in sales this year and will gladly pay the 
 extra tax when I reach my goal. I have till December 31 to sell another 
 $995,000.  Wish me luck. ;-)

 Mendy Ouzillou



 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes


Not only do we need to worry about eBay's new flawed international shipping 
ideas causing an increase in oversees shipment prices, we have to worry about 
a domestic increase in sales taxes so we have problems on both fronts.

Yes, our wonderful government (the senate) think that it is time that all 
online sellers should become tax collectors for their respective states.  
Those who host websites may be the first to start collecting around 10% in 
states sales taxes from every sale.

We need leadership more than ever in these financially depressed times.  Big 
government and the Post Office think that raising prices and taxes 
substantially is the solution during a depression?  Hello, Is there anybody 
at the helm?  Where is the Commander With A Few Teeth when you need some 
form of leadership?


Raising taxes and fees during a depression is kicking somebody when they have 
already been knocked down.

Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

[Jason Utas]

Hello Jim, Michael,
I'll be frank: I do not believe that the majority of meteorite hunters
and especially locals would have reached out to submit their find data
had not an official/NASA online tally been published.

At the very least, I think we can all agree that you would have
collected *as much* data as did Dr. Jenniskens.  Many locals clearly
wanted nothing to do with private meteorite hunters, and the
importance of SM numbers was only realized when the stone
weights/locations/finder's names were published on the NASA-affiliated
website.

We all appreciate the work you put into it, and you probably did as
good of a job as you could have, but the locals in the field were very
excited about being involved with a NASA/SETI project, and that helped
to drive many of the submissions.

With regards to Novato:

Without Dr. Jenniskens' efforts (published fireball trajectory
estimates and his description of what to look for), Novato #1 would
not have been recognized, and we do not know whether or not any of the
subsequent finds would have been made.  The entire fall could easily
have been missed.

Instead, thanks to the newspaper articles about the fireball (with
information from Dr. Jenniskens), Novato #1 was recovered.  Once we
had that data point, we knew where to look.  It also gave us greater
incentive to look in general.  It's much harder to motivate getting
out to hunt when you're *pretty sure* rocks made it to the ground, but
know little else about where they might be.  You wind up spending less
time in the right areas, etc.

His subsequent outreach efforts subsequently yielded Novato #6.

I think that would make him indirectly one of the most successful
hunters of the strewn-field.  He was responsible for the discovery of
Novato stones #1 and #6, and the information he published indirectly
led to the recovery of...everything else.

Stanfield will be another case of a poorly documented fall unless the
coordinates are eventually made 'public' on Galactic Analytics.  I'm
not saying there are rules that must be adhered to or anything like
that, but the way things are generally being done is unscientific.  If
data is being lost, it's a shame.  That's about it.  I don't think
anyone can argue with the fact that it's nice to see the data at some
point, and to make a strewn-field map.  If it's an important fall like
Sutter's Mill, it helps to recover more, too.

Also, Dr. Rubin pointed out he was the one the distributed with was
sent to him, not Peter.

The sample was forwarded to Dr. Rubin from the sample obtained by Dr.
Jenniskens, I believe -- from Novato #1.  Not sure exactly what you
mean.

Regards,
Jason


www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Jim Wooddell jimwoodd...@gmail.com wrote:
  Jason,

 And keep in mind I was the one maintaining the filed data field for
 the Garmin GPS  (gdp) files daily on the project and GE KMZ for finds.
  Not all meteorites found have SM numbers.  Can not speak for that
 process for Novato.
 While I agree 100% that it's nice to have field datalord knows
 I've go through hell with the Franconia project, Stanfield is a
 perfect example of this process not working.  Has no really useful
 field data in regards to assigned numbers.  It simply is not working
 as data is withheldso only those hunters know what their finds
 are.  Nothing but bragging rights and I am not saying there is
 anything wrong with bragging rights.
 That said, no one needs to or has to comply to these rules.  They are
 unofficial.  You and I might never know about finds in the field.
 Hunters want to delay public information as long as they can for have
 better chances of finding stones for themselves.  We see thisand I
 am not complaining, just pointing it out.  So in the real world, it is
 not working.

 Also, Dr. Rubin pointed out he was the one the distributed with was
 sent to him, not Peter.

 Jim


 On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Galactic Stone  Ironworks
 meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote:
 Just a small correction, not to blow my own horn, but to clear up a
 misconception in Jason's post.

 7) Re: Jim's comments about find numbers (and apparently bragging
 rights) -- No.  Without the 'consortium,' publicly posted numbers,
 etc. we would have much less of an idea of where/how many of the
 Sutter's Mill meteorites were recovered.  The majority of the
 information shared on the SETI website would not be known, the strewn
 field would be poorly known (relative to now), etc.  And the fall is
 now well-documented, and the information is publicly shared.  That's
 worth a heck of a lot.

 This is not 100% true.  I was tracking and tallying the finds before
 the official page went online.  I still have hundreds of emails from
 the public and finders who contacted me to share info.   I was in
 touch with Dr. Jenniskens early on and he told me he was tracking the
 finds also, so we agreed to share data.  At that point, I stopped
 collecting or archiving find coordinates and asked

Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

[Jason Utas]

Hello Jim, All,
As others have said -- it probably depends on the state.  At least
here in CA, paying sales tax is required for only online sales to
buyers within CA.  Ebay/Paypal have always enforced those taxes on me
when I've bought things.

Anne has just said something similar about Colorado.  Gary seems to
have it a bit tougher in Hawaii.  I don't know how it works elsewhere.

I can't see how this new law would hurt small sellers, though.  Since
only the companies making more than a million per year will have to
charge/pay taxes on inter-state sales, if anything, it gives an
advantage to the folks selling under that range.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Jim Wooddell
jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net wrote:
 I have to disagree with the brick and mortar comment.  any legitimate 
 licensed business, whether it is you in your office living room or your car, 
 is generally require to collect sales tax, or in Arizona, the transaction 
 privilege tax.  I think the only reason a lot of people get away with not 
 paying the tax, is that many states do not take the time to audit.  it is 
 costing them millions of dollars per year.
 Jim

 Jim Wooddell - Mobile

 Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:

Don't let politicians fool you.  They are talking about taxing at the 
point-of-sale, meaning where the item is shipped from.  In this case, 
possibly somebodies living room or garage!  If you own a brick and mortar 
Meteorite Store, you are already expected to collect these taxes including 
100% of sales online. There is no one million dollar annual sales exemption.  
There aren't too many dealers that own a storefront so at this point in time, 
they are alright but this could change very shortly.


Just like the Affordable Healthcare Act is the largest tax increase in U.S. 
history and it was sneakily forced upon American citizens.  Just wait until 
2014.  A lot of people who simply cannot afford healthcare will be fined on 
top of the massive tax increases.

Adam





- Original Message -
From: Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com
To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Met-List 
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Cc:
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

Adam,


Very timely post. I just read the following article (http://reut.rs/ZBTsVY). 
Regardless whether the bill passes or not, the impact on almost ALL meteorite 
dealers is nil. Here is the key excerpt from the article, It would also 
exempt merchants with online annual out-of-state sales of $1 million or less.

I am personally on my way to $1M in sales this year and will gladly pay the 
extra tax when I reach my goal. I have till December 31 to sell another 
$995,000.  Wish me luck. ;-)

Mendy Ouzillou



 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes


Not only do we need to worry about eBay's new flawed international shipping 
ideas causing an increase in oversees shipment prices, we have to worry 
about a domestic increase in sales taxes so we have problems on both fronts.

Yes, our wonderful government (the senate) think that it is time that all 
online sellers should become tax collectors for their respective states.  
Those who host websites may be the first to start collecting around 10% in 
states sales taxes from every sale.

We need leadership more than ever in these financially depressed times.  Big 
government and the Post Office think that raising prices and taxes 
substantially is the solution during a depression?  Hello, Is there anybody 
at the helm?  Where is the Commander With A Few Teeth when you need some 
form of leadership?


Raising taxes and fees during a depression is kicking somebody when they 
have already been knocked down.

Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

[Jason Utas]

 Adam,
You're not telling the truth.

SMALL SELLER EXCEPTION.-A State is authorized to require a remote
seller to collect sales and use taxes under this Act only if the
remote seller has gross annual receipts in total remote sales in the
United States in the preceding calendar year exceeding $1,000,000. For
purposes of determining whether the threshold in this sub­section is
met-

1) the sales of all persons related within the meaning of subsections
(b) and (c) of section 267 or section 707(b)(1) of the Internal
Revenue Code of 1986 shall be aggregated; or
2) persons with 1 or more ownership relationships shall also be
aggregated if such relationships were designed with a principal
purpose of avoiding the application of these rules.

http://www.marketplacefairness.org/bill-text/

This also clears up the issue of whether or not a brick-and-mortar
store would have to accrue a total of $1,000,000 in sales -- versus
$1,000,000 in exclusively internet sales -- before being forced to
pay/charge taxes on online purchases.  It's internet-only.  In other
words, if your business grosses ~$1,500,000 in in-store sales, but
only sells $500,000 of merchandise online, you still wouldn't have to
pay any online sales tax.  Unless your state has preexisting
provisions that require you to do so.

Furthermore, the enforcement of this tax policy will be up to the
states.  In other words, they can choose to enforce it (or not) as
they see fit.

I'd read the document; it's only five pages.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com wrote:
 Adam,
 You're not telling the truth.
 
 SMALL SELLER EXCEPTION.-A State is authorized to require a remote
 seller to collect sales and use taxes under this Act only if the
 remote seller has gross annual receipts in total remote sales in the
 United States in the preceding calendar year exceeding $1,000,000. For
 purposes of determining whether the threshold in this sub­section is
 met-

 1) the sales of all persons related within the meaning of subsections
 (b) and (c) of section 267 or section 707(b)(1) of the Internal
 Revenue Code of 1986 shall be aggregated; or
 2) persons with 1 or more ownership relationships shall also be
 aggregated if such relationships were designed with a principal
 purpose of avoiding the application of these rules.
 
 http://www.marketplacefairness.org/bill-text/

 This also clears up the issue of whether or not a brick-and-mortar
 store would have to accrue a total of $1,000,000 in sales -- versus
 $1,000,000 in exclusively internet sales -- before being forced to
 pay/charge taxes on online purchases.  It's internet-only.  In other
 words, if your business grosses ~$1,500,000 in in-store sales, but
 only sells $500,000 of merchandise online, you still wouldn't have to
 pay any online sales tax.  Unless your state has preexisting
 provisions that require you to do so.

 Furthermore, the enforcement of this tax policy will be up to the
 states.  In other words, they can choose to enforce it (or not) as
 they see fit.

 I'd read the document; it's only five pages.

 Regards,
 Jason

 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Jason Wrote:

 *
 I can't see how this new law would hurt small sellers, though.  Since
 only the companies making more than a million per year will have to
 charge/pay taxes on inter-state sales, if anything, it gives an
 advantage to the folks selling under that range.
 *

 Don't be so naive. This bill allows states to make all sellers collect taxes 
 on their behalf and there is no real one million dollar exclusion: read the 
 small print.  Just like the Affordable Healthcare Act was supposed make 
 healthcare affordable.  Instead it was just one massive deceptive tax 
 increase that will punish those who can least afford healthcare with fines.

 I have no idea why the feds are involved in state business in the first 
 place.  It is all driven by weak politicians who are being pressured by 
 large companies like Amazon who want online market share.

 At least here in Nevada, there are no state corporate taxes.

 Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

[Jason Utas]

Hello Greg,

After getting turned down a few times, I started asking a few
questions of the landowners who said they were committed to only
NASA coming onto their land.

Turns out a few private hunters whose names I won't mention decided to
say that they were working with NASA, and they told landowners not to
let (other) private hunters on their land.

Kind of made sense after I recalled that we'd run into one of the two
men earlier in the field, and his truck had a NASA sticker in the
window.  Before he recognized me, he told me he was working with NASA,
but I hadn't thought anything of it.

I suppose Dr. Jennisken's team could have been doing similar things,
but that wasn't the impression I got in the field.  The stories about
NASA being so tough was largely being told by one of the
aforementioned two hunters.

Go figure.

Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net wrote:
 All,
 re: Navato, Sutter's Mill...

 I feel that the efforts of one individual purposely 'attempted' to drive a
 huge wedge between the private sector and the land owners starting at
 Sutter's Mill (I was not at Navato to witness first hand this, but read
 about it!!). During that meteorite event, that tactic worked initially but
 the stamina and longevity of private funds and professionalism fueled
 further local resident recoveries and financial motivation to find the
 Sutter's Mill stones yet to be discovered.

 To further challenge the antic's of the 'NASA' representative, I believe the
 PRIVATE sector donated a greater portion of the specimens being studied
 around the world as we speak!!

 My only issue is when one 'pro' distorts the truth to a point where the
 unknowing believe it true because it comes from a 'NASA' representative!!

 Greg

 -Original Message- From: Jason Utas
 Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 9:15 PM
 To: Jim Wooddell ; Michael Gilmer ; Meteorite-list

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

 Hello Jim, Michael,
 I'll be frank: I do not believe that the majority of meteorite hunters
 and especially locals would have reached out to submit their find data
 had not an official/NASA online tally been published.

 At the very least, I think we can all agree that you would have
 collected *as much* data as did Dr. Jenniskens.  Many locals clearly
 wanted nothing to do with private meteorite hunters, and the
 importance of SM numbers was only realized when the stone
 weights/locations/finder's names were published on the NASA-affiliated
 website.

 We all appreciate the work you put into it, and you probably did as
 good of a job as you could have, but the locals in the field were very
 excited about being involved with a NASA/SETI project, and that helped
 to drive many of the submissions.

 With regards to Novato:

 Without Dr. Jenniskens' efforts (published fireball trajectory
 estimates and his description of what to look for), Novato #1 would
 not have been recognized, and we do not know whether or not any of the
 subsequent finds would have been made.  The entire fall could easily
 have been missed.

 Instead, thanks to the newspaper articles about the fireball (with
 information from Dr. Jenniskens), Novato #1 was recovered.  Once we
 had that data point, we knew where to look.  It also gave us greater
 incentive to look in general.  It's much harder to motivate getting
 out to hunt when you're *pretty sure* rocks made it to the ground, but
 know little else about where they might be.  You wind up spending less
 time in the right areas, etc.

 His subsequent outreach efforts subsequently yielded Novato #6.

 I think that would make him indirectly one of the most successful
 hunters of the strewn-field.  He was responsible for the discovery of
 Novato stones #1 and #6, and the information he published indirectly
 led to the recovery of...everything else.

 Stanfield will be another case of a poorly documented fall unless the
 coordinates are eventually made 'public' on Galactic Analytics.  I'm
 not saying there are rules that must be adhered to or anything like
 that, but the way things are generally being done is unscientific.  If
 data is being lost, it's a shame.  That's about it.  I don't think
 anyone can argue with the fact that it's nice to see the data at some
 point, and to make a strewn-field map.  If it's an important fall like
 Sutter's Mill, it helps to recover more, too.

 Also, Dr. Rubin pointed out he was the one the distributed with was

 sent to him, not Peter.

 The sample was forwarded to Dr. Rubin from the sample obtained by Dr.
 Jenniskens, I believe -- from Novato #1.  Not sure exactly what you
 mean.

 Regards,
 Jason


 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Jim Wooddell jimwoodd...@gmail.com wrote:

  Jason,

 And keep in mind I was the one maintaining the filed data field for
 the Garmin GPS  (gdp) files daily on the project and GE KMZ for finds.
  Not all meteorites found have SM numbers.  Can not speak

Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
1) I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill.  Dr.
Jenniskens went through the work of obtaining the type specimen and he
should be able to work on it as he sees fit.  If that delays the
publication of the meteorite for a few months, it doesn't matter.
Doing so does not adversely affect anyone or anything, in any way.

2) Carl -- I think the difference here is that the stone has had all
of the work necessary for approval completed, but it is being held up
so that Dr. Jenniskens can oversee the additional work that is being
done.  If he had given the type sample to UCLA earlier on, he might
not have been able to accommodate sample requests (and he has been
very forthcoming with doing so), so I think it's less a matter of
control as one of opportunity.  Many of the studies that have been
performed on the rock are not often done on equilibrated ordinary
chondrites.  It's still valuable information, but not data that is
usually included in a Meteoritical Bulletin writeup.

Which isn't to say that UCLA is not capable of doing the same,
butnone of this matters.  The stone will be approved and UCLA will
get their type specimen.  Since Dr. Rubin already received a small
sample in order to describe the stone petrographically, he is included
in the consortium and will be a co-author in any publications turned
out by it (thus rendering Michael Farmer's most recent criticism
somewhat moot).  Since Dr. Jenniskens did put in a lot of trajectory
calculation/outreach/recovery effort, I don't see why he's not
entitled to work on the specimen first.

3) The destructive work mentioned by some in a negative light includes
many studies outlined here:

http://asima.seti.org/n/

Stuff like Ar-Ar dating, raman spectroscopy, and other studies require
the dissolution or otherwise destruction of small portions of the
meteorite.  It's standard procedure.  Most of those kinds of studies
aren't performed on your average equilibrated chondrite fall, though,
so...be glad that it's happening with this one.  More of this kind of
information could help us better understand the histories of these
bodies in the solar system.

So for those of you saying that SETI/Dr. Jenniskens is doing things
they can't or shouldn'tthey're not.  They're just organizing
things.

4) Having met with Lisa Webber and Glen Rivera a few times after they
handed N#1 over to Dr. Jenniskens, I don't think Richard Montgomery's
statement holds any water, either.  They seemed genuinely happy to
provide the stone for analysis. I can't see how or why that would have
changed in the time since then, since they had already handed over the
stone and clearly expected ~20+ grams to go to an institution.

5) Some people seem to not like Dr. Jenniskens.  I loaned them N#5 for
non-destructive work and picked it up in person last Friday night.
SETI's pretty cool, and they seem to be doing good work, most of it
pertaining to asteroids, near-Earth/Earth-crossing bodies, Mars, and a
variety of other things.  This kind of thing is really right up their
alley.

6) Michael Mulgrew's recent comment makes no sense to me.  Every
meteorite must be studied to some extent prior to publication, or it
could not be published.  Some meteorites require O-isotope analyses,
some require trapped gas analyses, and others require only a few
mineralogical data points and a petrographic description.  Where to
draw that line can be somewhat arbitrary, but one must be careful.
There was some confusion a few years ago because O-isotope data was
not obtained on a new NWA acapulcoite, and it was classified as an
winonaite.  Later pairings were worked on more thoroughly.  Novato is
a little different because we all know it's an L6, but still.  The
write-up in the bulletin will reflect the variety of analyses
performed on the rock, I'm sure.  Since most folks wouldn't go through
the trouble of doing this much work on an L6, I'm glad that someone is
organizing it.

7) Re: Jim's comments about find numbers (and apparently bragging
rights) -- No.  Without the 'consortium,' publicly posted numbers,
etc. we would have much less of an idea of where/how many of the
Sutter's Mill meteorites were recovered.  The majority of the
information shared on the SETI website would not be known, the strewn
field would be poorly known (relative to now), etc.  And the fall is
now well-documented, and the information is publicly shared.  That's
worth a heck of a lot.

How many of you checked the SETI website for updates while hunting for
SM or N?  Yeah.  Useful.

Really not sure where all of the criticism is coming from.  This
meteorite isn't lost.  It's not in limbo.  It's being studied and will
be approved.  This should be done with in a few months.  A scientist
wants to do a thorough job on it.  Sounds good to me.

Regards,
Jason



On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 I seem to think this is a control issue. Someone wants total control over the 
 meteorite. Sad

Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

[Jason Utas]

Hello Michael, Carl,
Michael: You're assuming far too much about his motives.
Carl: I think he's figured that out by now.  The delay still doesn't
affect anyone in a tangible way.
Regards,
Jason



On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 I'm just saying that in the scientific world the same bullshit seems to be
 happening as in the private sector. Everyone is guarding their territory and
 all for self gain. I am in Russia and I've
 been hunting more than a week and haven't seen scientist one out here in the
 mud. But I am sure I will hear crying when I am selling Chelyabinsk back
 home. I have already spread it throughout the world via donations and sales
 so all can work as they see fit without a boss overseer.
 At least I can admit it:)
 Mike

 Sent from my iPhone

 On May 2, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:

 Jason
 People can take as much time as they please before submittal for
 classification. All I am saying is that no science on it can be published at
 LPSC or MetSoc if it is not classified. Also the name Novato hasn't been
 approved.
 Carl Agee

 On May 1, 2013 11:50 AM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello All,
 1) I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill.  Dr.
 Jenniskens went through the work of obtaining the type specimen and he
 should be able to work on it as he sees fit.  If that delays the
 publication of the meteorite for a few months, it doesn't matter.
 Doing so does not adversely affect anyone or anything, in any way.

 2) Carl -- I think the difference here is that the stone has had all
 of the work necessary for approval completed, but it is being held up
 so that Dr. Jenniskens can oversee the additional work that is being
 done.  If he had given the type sample to UCLA earlier on, he might
 not have been able to accommodate sample requests (and he has been
 very forthcoming with doing so), so I think it's less a matter of
 control as one of opportunity.  Many of the studies that have been
 performed on the rock are not often done on equilibrated ordinary
 chondrites.  It's still valuable information, but not data that is
 usually included in a Meteoritical Bulletin writeup.

 Which isn't to say that UCLA is not capable of doing the same,
 butnone of this matters.  The stone will be approved and UCLA will
 get their type specimen.  Since Dr. Rubin already received a small
 sample in order to describe the stone petrographically, he is included
 in the consortium and will be a co-author in any publications turned
 out by it (thus rendering Michael Farmer's most recent criticism
 somewhat moot).  Since Dr. Jenniskens did put in a lot of trajectory
 calculation/outreach/recovery effort, I don't see why he's not
 entitled to work on the specimen first.

 3) The destructive work mentioned by some in a negative light includes
 many studies outlined here:

 http://asima.seti.org/n/

 Stuff like Ar-Ar dating, raman spectroscopy, and other studies require
 the dissolution or otherwise destruction of small portions of the
 meteorite.  It's standard procedure.  Most of those kinds of studies
 aren't performed on your average equilibrated chondrite fall, though,
 so...be glad that it's happening with this one.  More of this kind of
 information could help us better understand the histories of these
 bodies in the solar system.

 So for those of you saying that SETI/Dr. Jenniskens is doing things
 they can't or shouldn'tthey're not.  They're just organizing
 things.

 4) Having met with Lisa Webber and Glen Rivera a few times after they
 handed N#1 over to Dr. Jenniskens, I don't think Richard Montgomery's
 statement holds any water, either.  They seemed genuinely happy to
 provide the stone for analysis. I can't see how or why that would have
 changed in the time since then, since they had already handed over the
 stone and clearly expected ~20+ grams to go to an institution.

 5) Some people seem to not like Dr. Jenniskens.  I loaned them N#5 for
 non-destructive work and picked it up in person last Friday night.
 SETI's pretty cool, and they seem to be doing good work, most of it
 pertaining to asteroids, near-Earth/Earth-crossing bodies, Mars, and a
 variety of other things.  This kind of thing is really right up their
 alley.

 6) Michael Mulgrew's recent comment makes no sense to me.  Every
 meteorite must be studied to some extent prior to publication, or it
 could not be published.  Some meteorites require O-isotope analyses,
 some require trapped gas analyses, and others require only a few
 mineralogical data points and a petrographic description.  Where to
 draw that line can be somewhat arbitrary, but one must be careful.
 There was some confusion a few years ago because O-isotope data was
 not obtained on a new NWA acapulcoite, and it was classified as an
 winonaite.  Later pairings were worked on more thoroughly.  Novato is
 a little different because we all know it's an L6, but still.  The
 write

Re: [meteorite-list] [met-list] Fwd: sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bob, All,
Metal protrusions like that are common on cleaned irons.  They are
usually slivers of fresh metal formerly surrounded by oxide that are
exposed via cleaning.

Since we have no evidence that Baygorria is or ever was actually
distinct from Campo del Cielo, I wouldn't be so bold as to say that
the original mass was a distinct meteorite.  It might have been, but
you assert it as though it's fact.  I would disagree without
additional evidence.

I agree.  Self-pairing when there's any question of the material being
different is a no-no.

Regards,
Jason

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Except that I can't remember if we identified the protrusion.

 Long ago I remember someone suggesting that it might be a mineral inclusion 
 that is differentially resistant to weathering, like silicates, or carbides, 
 like the cohenite in this image:
 http://www.mindat.org/photo-8081.html

 But then the ID of the iron meteorite, itself, was brought into question.
 In recap, here is what we know:
 Baygorria and Uruaçu are actual iron meteorites that are
 compositionally similar to Campo del Cielo, but are not at all similar 
 structurally.
 Uruaçu is a schreibersite-cohenite-rich IAB that is older than Campo.
 Uruaçu was found in Brazil; is unrelated to Baygorria (Uruguay) or Campo.

 Baygorria was found as a single mass (80 kg) that was cut into slices and the 
 largest remaining mass (40kg) was donated to a university. Individual 
 meteorites sold as 'Baygorria' are nothing more than Campo del Cielo from 
 Argentina.
 These bogus whole irons need to be relabeled as Campo del Cielo.
 Even 'Baygorria' slices are suspect Campo unless it can be proven that 
 provenance originated from the university or from Mr. J. Escomel, Roque Gra 
 Seras 914, Montevideo 11300, Uruguay.
 Anything less would be considered self-pairing which we now know is a 
 slippery-slope.

 Just my way of throwing dirt on the grave of the dead horse.
 Bob V.


 --- On Fri, 3/8/13, Art Jones art.jo...@iscs.com wrote:

 From: Art Jones art.jo...@iscs.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd:  sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
 To: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com, Meteorite-list 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, altm...@meteorite-martin.de 
 altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 Date: Friday, March 8, 2013, 1:34 PM
 Guys,

 I think the horse is way past dead on this one, let's end
 the thread.

 Thanks, Art


 ++
   - Original Message -
   From: Randy Korotev koro...@wustl.edu
   To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
   Cc:
   Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:41 PM
   Subject: [meteorite-list]
 sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
  
   I recieved a well prepared letter
   from a fellow with a question that
   I can't begin to answer.
   Maybe someone on the list has
   seen this kind of thing before.
  
   He bought a Baygorria (Iron, IAB complex)
   from a dealer 3 years ago.
   He picked it up recently to find
   a metal protrusion sticking out
   of the thing that was sharp enough
   to prick his thumb.
   Here's a jpg of his scanned photo.
  
   http://meteorites.wustl.edu/baygorria.jpg
  
   What's happened here?
  
   Randy Korotev
   St. Louis
  
  
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[meteorite-list] Fwd: sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Martin,

Please don't compare my knowledge about meteorites to Jorge's behavior.

Eric nailed this one on the head.

I have a degree in geology insofar as I am currently taking structural
geology to complete the degree.  For all intents and purposes, I am as
qualified as anyone with a relevant degree, having taken mineralogy,
petrology, and field-mapping, the only required courses that involve
mineral and rock identification.  Most scientists who study
meteorites, regardless of their degree, would not be qualified to
visually pair any meteorites in the fashion that Adam described for
his NWA 4880 specimens.

I suppose you could try to hold me to the arbitrary you don't have
the degree on your wall yet, but I'll have it in two months.  You're
just attacking me ad nauseam.  I don't get it.

So, what constitutes an expert in such things?  Perhaps someone with
fifteen years' experience with meteorites?  Someone who can look at an
auction like Jorge's, see the texture of the crust, and know that it's
not right?
Perhaps someone who has done that sort of thing
several times?  I know there are other folks around who could
discriminate between the relevant meteorites in those situations,
but...I don't know any well-known 'scientists' who could.

I've put photos of one of the NWA 7034-paired fragments on facebook.
Painfully obvious that it's the same stuff.  If you don't think it's
enough proof, by all means take it to the IMCA.  If they ask me to
change the wording of anything, I suppose I'll have to.

Until then, please stop quoting the rules to me.  You were removed due
to ethics violations, remember?  Or did you resign before you could
get booted?

I forget.

Jason


On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 11:39 PM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi Jason,

 Uff, slowly you seem to understand, what others smarter than we both got
 already from the 1st posting on.

 I say:

 - Your material has a different status than NWA 2975 and NWA 7034,
 especially a lower collector's (and therefore monetary)
   value.

 - You present your material in a way, which makes a possible buyer believe,
 that they are either part of the very stone(s)
   to which classifiers and the Meteoritical Society designed the numbers NWA
 2975 and NWA 7034, or that they were confirmed by a professional meteorite
 scientist to be paired to them.

 - As long as you don't own a degree in that field and as long they don't
 undergo the formal classification and acceptationprocedures of the
 Meteoritical Society, you're not allowed to call them formally paired to
 these numbers, but you have to make it unmistakably clear, that this is only
 your personal guess.

 - It is good business practice to use the same conventions, how to label and
 name such material, like they are established among your dealers and
 collectors colleagues.

 - The way you present and describe your material breaks the binding rules of
 the International Meteorite Collectors Association, to which you agreed to
 abide as a member.
 In particular those, quoty quote:

 If members wish to sell or trade meteoritic specimens, then those items
 must be 'actually and exactly what is claimed.' (Merriam-Webster-Dictionary)
 Our members agree to adhere to the highest standards of meteorite
 identification and proper labelling practices.

 (...)

 I agree that it is the sole responsibility of each member to accurately
 describe meteoritic material for sale, trade or other related transactions
 without providing any misleading or false information.

 and especially (...)

 I agree that unclassified 'meteorites' purchased on eBay or other avenues
 from unknown sellers might not be meteorites. I will not sell or trade any
 meteorites I may have found (or any questionable meteoritic material) unless
 I first obtain verification from a meteorite expert.

 And especially:

  Verified but unclassified material should be specified as such.
 Meteoritical Society guidelines will prevail in the circumstance of
 meteorite naming and pairing

 (- mean point, therefore the brackets, would be, to remind you, that for you
 the way that Mr. Jorge authenticated his pseudo-Chelyabinsk wasn't
 sufficient - but nothing else did you with your Martians, i.e. to trust your
 source and to inspect them personally. There is the danger for you, to loose
 credibility in attacking others..)


 And see,
 Especially the last point regarding the Code of Ethics of IMCA makes it so
 comfort for both of us,
 cause we don't have to discuss, whether those procedures are necessary or
 meaningful or which properties of your material made you think to be able to
 verify it or whether evil Martin doesn't like your nose or whether your
 material is authentic ect.pp.
 that's all not of interest,

 of interest is, if you fulfill the formalities the IMCA set for you (and the
 standard of the MetSoc and the standard among collectors, dealers, hunters,
 researchers) in appraising your material.

 To me it seems not so.
 To you

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Martin, Adam,

Unless you've analyzed every single fragment of NWA  (4880, or
whatever else) that you've sold, you or someone else is guilty of
self-pairing without analytical data.  Having one stone analyzed
doesn't do any good.  I've seen slices from the official NWA 7034
stone, and several complete pairings.  If I were the dealer who had
had the stone analyzed, I would be able to self-pair the fragments and
no one would care.  If I'd donated a few grams, you wouldn't be
jumping on my back.  And the other ten or so fragments would be
untested and fine by your standards, regardless of what they looked
like.

So...this isn't about authenticity.  It's about getting me to donate a
few of the ten grams I had to science.  Which, normally, I would say
is a worthy goal.  In this case, it still is.  Probably more-so due to
the 'special-ness' of the material.  But, other dealers raised the
price to the point that buying even ten grams from Morocco stretched
my budget, so...I'd prefer to sell material for half of what other
folks are offering it for, which in turn makes it easier for me to
break even and keep some.

Part of the issue I have with these threads is that you don't seem to
give a darn about the science.  You're just attacking *me.*

Some of the folks at Berkeley wanted to run a sample for their
research.  A smaller fragment works for their purposes (argon dating
or for atmospheric data, I'm not sure).  So, you can rest assured that
this material will be analytically confirmed soon enough.  It doesn't
take 20% to do that.

--

Adam.  I would point out that we purchased NWA 3200 from you as a
pairing to Tafrawet [NWA 860].  The pattern looked different, so we
bought all of the still-available slices on ebay and gave some to
UCLA.  New iron.  We tried messaging the other buyers about it, but
only one ever responded.  Don't know if the other buyers ever figured
it out.

And someone else reminded me off-list of some slices of NWA 869 sold
back in the day as a new meteorite.  The disgruntled buyers only
realized it later, having paid more for their new...apparent pairing.
Not that folks aren't still analyzing pieces of NWA 869 -- not to
mention selling other meteorites as paired stones.  But, no seasoned
dealer would make such a rookie mistake, right?  It's easy to
self-pair such easily recognizable stones, despite never having sent
one in for analysis.

Which reminds me: none of this is new.

http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com/msg24653.html

http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com/msg24503.html

To which I'll say the following.  The NWA 7034-paired material I have
came from the same area and from the same source as did much of the
other pairings.  My source traveled directly to the find site to
obtain it.  That, paired with its appearance, is good enough for me.
You used the same argument for your NWA 1110/1068 pairings several
years ago.

--

Jason



On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 11:39 PM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi Jason,

 Uff, slowly you seem to understand, what others smarter than we both got
 already from the 1st posting on.

 I say:

 - Your material has a different status than NWA 2975 and NWA 7034,
 especially a lower collector's (and therefore monetary)
   value.

 - You present your material in a way, which makes a possible buyer believe,
 that they are either part of the very stone(s)
   to which classifiers and the Meteoritical Society designed the numbers NWA
 2975 and NWA 7034, or that they were confirmed by a professional meteorite
 scientist to be paired to them.

 - As long as you don't own a degree in that field and as long they don't
 undergo the formal classification and acceptationprocedures of the
 Meteoritical Society, you're not allowed to call them formally paired to
 these numbers, but you have to make it unmistakably clear, that this is only
 your personal guess.

 - It is good business practice to use the same conventions, how to label and
 name such material, like they are established among your dealers and
 collectors colleagues.

 - The way you present and describe your material breaks the binding rules of
 the International Meteorite Collectors Association, to which you agreed to
 abide as a member.
 In particular those, quoty quote:

 If members wish to sell or trade meteoritic specimens, then those items
 must be 'actually and exactly what is claimed.' (Merriam-Webster-Dictionary)
 Our members agree to adhere to the highest standards of meteorite
 identification and proper labelling practices.

 (...)

 I agree that it is the sole responsibility of each member to accurately
 describe meteoritic material for sale, trade or other related transactions
 without providing any misleading or false information.

 and especially (...)

 I agree that unclassified 'meteorites' purchased on eBay or other avenues
 from unknown sellers might not be meteorites. I will not sell or trade any

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Hello Michael, Martin, Adam,
On the contrary, in this case, scores of stones have been recovered of
each meteorite, and it is no longer reasonable to donate samples of
each.

I know for a fact that the both of you (Martin, Adam) haven't analyzed
each and every stone that you've bought that was paired to NWA 2975,
so where is the line drawn?  If you haven't analyzed every piece, I'm
assuming that you have some way of analytically confirming the
authenticity of every fragment you've offered, given your statements.

Should I give a lab a single fragment to analyze, and assume the rest
are real because the lab has confirmed it?  If that's the case, I
would gladly sell the fragment in the lot I purchased that wasn't
paired with NWA 7034 -- as NWA 7034.  After all, the lot of fragments
would be paired with NWA 7034 via analysis.

Or did you donate samples from each Tissint that both of you bought?
I know at least Martin sold quite a bit of it, but I have the feeling
that he didn't donate 20% of his acquisitions.  Adam, I assume you
bought some.  Since the stones *could* have been similar finds, why
didn't you follow the procedure with that meteorite?

Or is that meteorite so obviously all 'the same' that it wasn't done?
When can someone decide that?

No, I'm sorry, guys.  If it's one or two stones and they could be
distinct meteorites, sure.  NWA 2975 was thousands of small stones,
and we can all recognize the fusion crust, shock veins, and
maskelynite grains.  NWA 7034 and pairings have a brecciated texture
just as unique.  And since I already have analytical data confirming
the 2975 (and will soon have the data on the 7034 pairing), I get the
cheap shots from you dealers, but...eh.  I get it.

You're not even questioning the material, either of you.  You're just
saying that I need to donate the 20% tax despite the fact that the
stones are all obviously paired to their respective rocks.

I both disagree with you two -- and think this is BS because you're
attacking me for things I've said to you in the past.

Jason

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Michael Bross elemen...@peconic.net wrote:
 Dear Martin, Jason and List

 First, Martin, I love your highly spirited answer to Jason.
 Jason, as Martin says (and respects you)... you both should smoke
 the peace pipe...

 I am following this list because I love meteorites,
 although I am barely buying any... maybe I will in the future.
 (I love pallasites... but sooo expensive...)

 This is a great back and forth exchange which gets to the core
 of some really technical but real aspect of dealing with classifying,
 selling etc...

 So... hope you solve your momentary quarrel

 Cheers
 Michael B.  (a meteorite fan from France)


 --
 From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 6:28 PM
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 Hiho Jason,

 not at all, I haven't any likely NWA 7034 at hand (nor would I have
 original
 NWA 7034 at hand, to compare), neither any leftover of NWA 4766 an
 official
 NWA 2975 pairing, whereof all stones were looked through by a meteorite
 scientist.
 (and anyway, how could you think that about me, tststs shame on you.
 Anyway
 I was out of biz for more than a year now, due to a disease and it will
 take
 a while until my little star will raise again to sparkle between the stars
 of the splendid Northern constellation of the FC Meteorite House).

 (I hadn't cost you a customer, it was his free decision.
 He asked in the forum, I told him, that also for me your description is
 not
 100% clear
 and that he should ask you about the status of your material.
 And as he was a newer collector, I told him the difference between
 unclassified and classified material in the view of a collector. Told him,
 when his concern is only about the material itself, he could take
 advantage
 of your offer (as I trust in your abilities), but if he wants to get the
 number out of the media, it would be normal to take in account a higher
 price and to buy from a seller offering original NWA 7034,
 and that this with decision nobody could help him, but that he has to make
 it.)

 Hey, but now back to the beef.
 Jason, I have I an idea, which is also more comfort, as we don't have to
 argue then anymore.

 What do you think about the idea, that we both in your case file a formal
 complaint to the IMCA?
 Formal complaint, cause else IMCA doesn't occupy themselves with a case.
 I mean, they must know better than we, how to interpret their CoE.
 And then we wait for their decision.

 No worries, there will be no harm to you.
 Either they will say, correct your descriptions and commend how to do so
 and
 ask you to avoid something similar in future
 Or they will say, the complaint is baseless, it's o.k. like you did it
 (and
 you won a crate of beer from me at the nextTucson show).

 Shall we?
 Martin

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Martin, All,

Personal jibes aside...

Certainly -- I'll let others decide if this is enough information, and
they're more than welcome to buy a sample to have it tested.  I have
no doubt that everything I'm offering is authentic, but everything I
offer is of course backed by a full money-back guarantee.  One that I
will actually honor.

I find it perhaps most amusing that you're not even saying that the
samples I'm offering aren't paired with NWA 7034 or NWA 2975.  If you
are well familiarized with meteorites, I'm certain that you can tell
that they're paired as well, from the photos alone.

An analysis wouldn't tell you as much, nor would it prove the
authenticity of most of the fragments that I am offering.  Only a
visual examination would do as much, unless you advocated polishing a
side of each specimen and analyzing each one individually -- but such
a burden of proof has *never* before been asked of any meteorite
dealer.

NWA 7034 and pairings are not just a breccia, as you describe them.
The general texture of the breccia, as I have said before, is unlike
any other meteorite or rock that I have ever seen in a geology or
petrology class here at Berkeley.  The angular, yet very fine-grained
nature of the breccia is reminiscent of a few lunar meteorites that I
have seen, but is generally much more homogeneous and contains much
more shock-darkened fine-gained matrix.

In short, I'm not really sure what you're getting at.  You don't seem
to be questioning the authenticity of the material Im offering.  In
fact, all you seem to be saying is that I should donate 20% so that I
will analytically prove that one of fragments I purchased is indeed
paired with NWA 7034 (or NWA 2975) -- despite the fact that this would
say nothing about the authenticity of the other fragments (something
I've mentioned several times, but that you have ignored repeatedly).

You don't even address the issue of Tissint or other NWAs that
apparently do not require laboratory testing in order to deem
meteorites paired.  For some reason, you're singling me out for
these two meteorites.

I'd like to hear about why that is.  After all, have you noticed the
self-paired NWA 2995 on ebay, currently offered by a European dealer
(or at least there as of a week or so ago)?  It looks authentic to me
(and is relatively cheap, to boot) so I have no problem with it.

I think that's where we differ in opinion.  Ultimately, I value
authenticity highly and trust my judgement, which has been confirmed
by analytical work on numerous occasions.  So, it's good enough for
me.

And it beats blindly selling 15 or so fragments of something as real
just because one specimen has been analyzed.  Though I expect data on
the 7034 pairing soon enough (another fact you continue to ignore), so
I really don't get what your point is.  It doesn't take 20% of a
meteorite to confirm a pairing, and the 2975 I'm offering was
confirmed to be the same age and to share the same exposure history
via argon dating.  Per your analogy, they're a Porsche as much as any
other Porsche is.  Same stuff.

Getting tired of saying the same things again and again.

Jason






On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi Jason,

 you're often too hasty (and somewhat egocentric) to discuss a simple
 argumentation soberly.

 I say nothing else than
 that the advertisings of your material, in particular of your unclassified
 alleged NWA 7034-pairing and the unclassified supposed NWA 2975 pairings,
 are misleading or at least apt to lead to misunderstandings for the
 collectors.

 In that sense, that they raise the impression, that your material was
 decided by a professional meteorite scientist (in the meaning of the CoE) to
 be officially paired to the numbers/meteorites NWA 2975 and NWA 7034
 and not only grouped to them by your personal inspection/opinion.
 Hence a case of the so-called self-pairing.

 All I suggested to you, was to give the collectors/buyers clear and
 sufficient information, that they can make their decisions, whether they
 like to buy or not.
 Hence to make it clear, that based on your own and personal observations,
 those samples you are offering shall be paired to the numbers you refer to.

 Why shall this be so difficult?
 Here you freely stated, that it was you, who scrutinized each sample and
 that you decided them to belong to NWA 7034,
 because you used a microscope and because you once had a few grams of Jay
 Piateks original 7034 inspected. And in the NWA 2975-case, because those
 stones would be easily to recognize.

 So just write it there.
 And leave it to the people, if that kind of analysis is sufficient for them.

 (I for my own for instance think, that I haven't that gift and experience to
 be able to decide or to identify, whether such tiny microfragments are a
 certain meteorite, especially not, when it's a breccia and I have only some
 photos, a written description and the remembrance of minor quantities I took

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Ahhh, now I get it.  Before I could have seen it as simple concern.
Now I'm guessing you purchased some more material paired with NWA
7034, hope to sell it in the future, and are attacking my material
accordingly.

So now I'm not allowed to have my own opinion?  Wow, Martin.  I heard
from some others (including a well-regarded scientist) that my last
email raised some good points.  You've got something else coming if
you think I'm going to start taking your word as gospel, especially
given your history.

So you're the fellow who cost me a buyer by telling him that he should
pay three times more for a chip from an analyzed rock.  Well, shoot.
Thanks for letting me know. I'll be sure to have your back next time.

Re: everything else/the IMCA:

Authenticity is something I take very seriously, and not just with
other peoples' rocks.  I'm as critical of my samples as I can be, and
donating a ~2 gram fragment from my lot of NWA 7034-paired material
would not guarantee the authenticity of the smaller fragments.  Only
close scrutiny -- or probing each one individually would do that, and
that sort of analytical requirement has never been in place for the
IMCA or elsewhere.

I've already pointed out that I skirt directly referring to the stones
as NWA 7034 on the website, so your rehashing the you're using
someone else's number is getting old.  I do say these fragments are
paired.  They are.  You also disregard the fact that pieces are being
worked on and that, even if I had 20% of my lot of fragments analyzed,
per convention, most of the fragments wouldn't be directly tested.
You wouldn't be attacking my credibility, and I could sell as many
similar-looking terrestrial rocks as I wanted -- in peace.

So your rules don't ensure authenticity in this case.  What does
ensure authenticity is the fact that I looked at each fragment with a
microscope, searching for those small, angular white clasts unique to
this meteorite.  It's very distinctive: I've taken mineralogy and
petrology and never seen a terrestrial rock like it.  It does resemble
a few lunar meteorites grossly but is generally much more
fine-grained.

Just as the IMCA doesn't require each dealer to analyze NWA
869/801/978/753/etc., a stone from this find of many should be exempt
from individual analysis.  If you're going to go so far as to require
each dealer to analyze his or her own material, I don't see why you
wouldn't require that every chip or fragment that they buy then must
be analyzed.  Never mind the fact that this lot of fragments came from
the exact same source as some of the larger stones that have since
been put on the market.

It simply doesn't make sense.  But, I've already said this.  You just
ignored it.  Same goes for most of the rest of my last email.

I'll let you know about the results from the analysis here at school
if you're so curious.  As I said, we already confirmed the NWA 2975
analytically, so forgive me if I don't take the time to respond to
your repetitive points.

Never mind the fact that I probably shouldn't be taking advice on how
to stay in the IMCA from someone who got himself removed as you did.

Jason

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Yes, Yep, Yeah Jason!

 You forget always, how old I am..  A more proper answer would have been:
 Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I'll correct it.

 I remember that in my active time in the IMCA-board such cases like yours
 were the most common complaints filed against members. The solution isn't a
 big thing, usually the board commended to the indicted to use those simple
 terms:
 An unclassified in a prominent position and  likely and possible.

 You know, you have to give to the potential buyer the proper information as
 a base for him to make his decision.
 Your stones are unclassified according the guidelines of the Meteoritical
 Society and the Code of Ethics of the IMCA,
 Regarding the latter you have to indicate that.

 Whether a collector or buyer concedes to you sufficient experience and
 competence to identify your samples by your own correctly, you have simply
 to leave to him.

 I wouldn't have wrote that, if not already a case had happened, showing that
 your advertizing of the possible 7034 pairing can be misleading.
 After the fuss in media around NWA 7034 a not yet so experienced German
 collector found your offerings and was convinced to get a true part of the
 original NWA 7034 stones.

 You've to put yourself in the position of the various collectors, not all
 are content with the intrinsic properties of the material itself, to some it
 adds a lot to such a sample, to print out the articles from the media and to
 be able to show his specimen to others while pointing on a photo in these
 articles, being able to say, from this very stone my sample was taken from.

 Also you will confess, if asked by a collector, which stone he shall choose:
 That one from an unnumbered group, not listed in the Bulletin

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Hello Martin, All,

No, no, no, and no.

I do not directly refer to the NWA 7034-paired material on my website
as NWA 7034.  I merely state that it is paired material.  In the case
of 7034, I scrutinized even the smallest fragments and volunteered a
fragment for destructive analysis here at school.  One of the
fragments I received was not the same material as NWA 7034, and it is
set aside.  Admittedly, the sample for work is not 20% of the weight
of the lot of fragments.  But , since I'm not self-assigning an NWA
number, the rules have been followed.

Standard practice would dictate that I donate 20% of the lot of
fragments to science, which would not necessitate cut samples from
every fragment I have.  If I didn't know what I were doing, and
donated a ~2 gram fragment from the ~10 gram lot, most of the smaller
pieces *could* be terrestrial crap, but the meteorite would be
analyzed, approved, and you would (I assume) not be questioning it.

While you may not examine prices carefully, a few weeks ago, the
standard price for NWA 7034 was $20,000-30,000 per gram for pieces
less than a half gram or so.  Only pieces in the gram+ range were as
little as $10,000 per gram.

I started my pricing at $10,000 per gram and went down to $5,000 per
gram for larger pieces.  My prices were a fraction of the advertised
price for these stones, and unless other dealers have dropped their
prices by ~50% or more, my prices are still lower.

So, yes, my specimens are priced at a fraction of what other specimens
are (or were) priced at.  I haven't looked around in the past week or
so, but I assume that's still true.  Since I paid just over five times
as much per gram for this material as I have for any other meteorite
from NWA, I think that's fair.

Why donating 20 grams or 20% of the material would enable me to raise
prices by 50% to 300% is beyond my comprehension, though.

I donated a fragment of the NWA 2975 lot to destructive research at UC
Berkeley; it was mechanically destroyed, and the maskelynite crystals
were removed for several Ar dating runs (which did agree with the
conclusions reached by other dating methods for NWA 2975).

Of course, since those stones could also have come from different
locations, in theory, I would need to cut or break each one to confirm
it, right?  Even the ones that weigh 0.1-0.2 grams.

By and large, I try to be reasonable with such things.  Where do you
draw the line between a large find like Taza or NWA 869 and something
like NWA 2975?  NWA 801?  Each of these meteorites are now examples of
large finds with hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals on the
market.  As such, I thought NWA 2975 would be a fine name to use.
Everyone knows it, the stones are easily recognizable, and there is
already much of it in labs waiting to be studied.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/mmc/NWA2975.pdf

I accurately describe TKW's to the best of my knowledge and describe
things as fully as I can on my website so that there is no potential
for misinformation.

The vast majority of our stones are individually analyzed.  The only
stones on the website that have not been analyzed -- yet, that I would
be willing to say have an official number on our website -- are NWA
2975.  It's too common and easily recognizable to bother.

Regards,
Jason

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:

 Hi Jason,

 no offense, but only a remark.
 You're always pretty fast, when it's about blaming sellers to be dishonest
 or fraudulent.
 In my personal opinion that doesn't fit directly well together with some
 offerings on your webpage.
 For instance some of the Martians,
 there it is not directly clear for the reader,
 whether the specimens, which you reckon to be paired to black beauty - NWA
 7034 are parts of the original stones, which were numbered or whether they
 will be still classified and will receive an own NWA number or whether they
 were told by a scientist to be paired and remain unnumbered or whether it's
 your personal opinion based on your experience.

 Same to some extent with the obviously unclassified stones, where you use
 the number NWA 2975 (which was one single stone) in the menu side bar.

 In my eyes that is problematical.
 It seems to be a classical self-pairing, which should be a no-go for
 IMCA-members.

 But especially it's somewhat not so fine for the not yet so experienced
 collectors,
 as they often are not aware, that such unclassified stones will have later
 in case they want to swap or trade them once, do have a remarkably lower
 collector's and trade value - thus a lower monetary value than their
 officially recognized and numbered comrades.

 Neither the latter is evident for the naïve beginner, if he reads your
 prices.
 The unclassified ones, which you relate to NWA 7034 cost around 10,000$/g on
 your pages and also the supposed NWA 2975-pairing are not different in price
 than the specimens sold by more professional collectors and dealers, who
 took

Re: [meteorite-list] Oriented Meteorites?

[jason utas]

Hello Brandon, All,
Oriented typically means that it is evident that a stone attained
stable flight for at least the later portion of a given meteorite's
ablative time spent falling to Earth.

However, this sort of thing can be somewhat subjective, and it is a
greyscale ranging from not at all oriented to very much so.

Not so much [shield-shaped, minor froth on trailing face]:

http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Katol/complete/72.678/DSCN2719.jpeg
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Katol/complete/72.678/DSCN2717.jpeg
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Katol/complete/72.678/DSCN2714.jpeg

Very much so:

http://www.fallsandfinds.com/page9.php

Generally, if a meteorite's crust shows flow-lines, I'll call it
flight-marked.  If it has a shape that denotes stable aerodynamic
flight, then it's at least somewhat oriented.

But many sellers don't seem to be able to tell the difference between
oriented meteorites and:

1) Broken stones, especially if sand-blasted.  If you take a round,
fusion-crusted stone and break it in half, you get a heat-shield
shape.  But not an oriented stone.  Especially common with NWA's.
Corner chips off of larger stones often exhibit convex surface of
crust and concave broken faces.

2) Fusion crusted stones that show no sign of orientation, but are
shaped kind of like a heat-shield.  Similar to above, but atmospheric
break.  The broken face fuses over, and an oriented shape results.
But, no flow lines or evidence of lipping or thicker crust on trailing
face of stone.

3) Stones that show vague traces of orientation, if any.  Sometimes, a
dealer calls a meteorite oriented and...I just don't get it.

Not much else to say...it really is a greyscale, and, while I wouldn't
call orientation subjective, someone else might deem flow-lines
enough evidence to call something oriented, regardless of shape.

Regards,
Jason


 From: Brandon D. b1dunov...@aol.com
 Date: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:04 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Oriented Meteorites?
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Hello Everyone,

 I have a question I'm sure can be answered here to my satisfaction.

 What defines an Oriented meteorite? I've noticed a trend starting where
 people have begun calling any meteorite with a rounded edge oriented or
 slightly oriented.

 What truly defines an oriented meteorite? I have dozens of shields with
 radial flowlines and bullet shaped stones and irons, so I see orientation,
 but what's the true criteria?

 Thank you ahead for any replies.

 Best,
 Brandon D.
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Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[jason utas]

Hello Mike, All,
Good catch.  Uruacu's something else, while Baygorria is Campo, along
with Las Palmas and a few other newbies supposedly from...other
places.
Gotta love globalization...
Jason

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 Uruacu could hardly be more different than Campo. Jason, are you confusing 
 Baygorria with Uruacu? I saw Adam mention Baygorria (which is a total scam to 
 claim campo under another name).
 Uruacu from Brazil is an extremely stable iron. It is old, but amazingly when 
 cut is perfect and so have yet to see a piece that rusts on a cut surface.
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 28, 2013, at 11:31 PM, jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello Adam, All,

 Actually, Uruacu does appear to be distinct from Campo del Cielo.
 Uruacu appears to be a much older meteorite that has weathered in
 different conditions, and many individuals show cohenite when cut -- a
 mineral I have never seen in Campo del Cielo.  Generally speaking,
 Campos run the full range from freshly-fusion crusted to rusty lumps,
 and everything in-between.  But, Campo fell within the past ~5,000
 years, so we're talking about rapid weathering in a wet environment
 (also why it's a ruster).  Uruacu fell in a drier area, and most
 individuals exhibit a much more uniform covering of shale that does
 not readily flake off due to rusting.  They seem to have fallen much
 longer ago, and are generally more weathered due to the fact that
 they've been around for longer.  Uruacu generally resists rusting
 better.

 It would be like comparing Sikhote Alin to Henbury.  No Henburies I
 know of rust, but, by and large, they're not as fresh as most
 Sikhotes.  But some Sikhotes appear to have fallen into swampy areas
 and look pretty bad -- and rust.  It's hard to mix the two up.

 The trouble is that I've also seen Campos sold as Uruacu, which
 complicates things.  Uruacu is a very old fall.  Even some reputable
 dealers have been selling specimens of new Campo (crust,
 regmaglypts) as Uruacu.  Very different.  I assume this is due to
 dishonest suppliers.

 There's a stunning, fairly large Uruacu for sale at the moment.  Not
 mine, but I wonder if this will bring it out of the woodwork.

 Regards,
 Jason

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com



 Isn't Baygorria another meteorite with a fake provenance?  Basically a
 cleaned up Campo with a delaminated section protruding after a
 not-so-careful makeover.  I would just tell him to seek first aid so he
 doesn't catch the dreaded Lawrencite disease.

 Adam




 - Original Message -
 From: Randy Korotev koro...@wustl.edu
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:41 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 I recieved a well prepared letter from a fellow with a question that I can't
 begin to answer.  Maybe someone on the list has seen this kind of thing
 before.

 He bought a Baygorria (Iron, IAB complex) from a dealer 3 years ago. He
 picked it up recently to find a metal protrusion sticking out of the thing
 that was sharp enough to prick his thumb.

 Here's a jpg of his scanned photo.

 http://meteorites.wustl.edu/baygorria.jpg

 What's happened here?

 Randy Korotev
 St. Louis

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Re: [meteorite-list] A reply note for JASON concerning my Chelyabinsk Meteorites for sale on EBAY

[jason utas]

Jorge,

1) I am not selling any material from this fall, nor do I plan to.

2) So much of the material you're selling in your ebay account is so
painfully misrepresented that I fear no threat from you.  You're
either woefully ignorant, or a cheat.  Either way, you have no grounds
to be threatening anyone who points this out.

Written proof is worth as much as the person who's writing it, which
means nothing in your case.

You sell common NWA's as meteorites from Oman, Burkina Faso, and the
Atacama, have already sold a piece of an H-chondrite as Chelyabinsk
material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelyabinsk-RUSSIA-2013-Meteor-Event-1-20gr-Very-Rare-Meteorite-Specimen-/321079087502?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item4ac1ce118e

To say nothing of the mislabeled Canyon Diablo, Sikhote Alin, and
several smaller specimens of rare falls that you've listed in recent
months that have consisted of caliche-encrusted fragments of NWA
meteorites.  At any given point, I'd say about a third to a half of
your non-NWA material is misrepresented (or perhaps accidentally
mislabeled, but the end result is the same).

You're trying to make money off of the people in our community by
deceiving us.  I wouldn't expect mush sympathy here.

Jason


 From: Jorge M. Gonçalves galeriaco...@gmail.com
 Date: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:22 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] A reply note for JASON concerning my Chelyabinsk
 Meteorites for sale on EBAY
 To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Subject: A reply note for JASON concerning my Chelyabinsk Meteorites
 for sale on EBAY

 As far as I'm concerned and for your information I'm the only one
 showing  written proof from the Russian seller with my meteorites
 being sold on Ebay, as far as I know all the other Chelyabinsk Russian
 Meteorite pieces for sale on Ebay don't come with any written proof
 showing any or similar authenticity.

 Just because I don't actively participate on this list does not mean
 I'm not attentive to all the messages and content being sent forth
 from all its registered members.


 Sincerely yours,

 Jorge
 GALERIACORES METEORITE COLLECTION
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Re: [meteorite-list] JASON, be carefull what you say about my meteorites on the Meteorite List, I am warning you...

[jason utas]

Jorge,
The small fragment you've already sold and the 19g stone you currently
have for sale are both H-chondrites.
Chelyabinsk is an LL5.
I would suggest refunding the buyer of the 1.20 gram fragment you've
already sold and pulling the 19 gram stone.
Maybe I'll try writing some Russian labels for my Bassikounou's and
listing them for $20+/g.  They'll have labels, right?  That means they
must be authentic.
Jason


 From: Jorge M. Gonçalves galeriaco...@gmail.com
 Date: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:51 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] JASON, be carefull what you say about my
 meteorites on the Meteorite List, I am warning you...
 To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Jason, I was asked by the owner of the METEORITE LIST not to write any
 offensive language or insult any one publicly on this list but
 apparently you don't respect that policy.

 All I said is that my Russian meteorite specimens on Ebay come with a
 card of authenticity from the Russian seller. Before you start
 accusing me of anything please ask someone to interpret the card for
 you. The name of the seller and his respective residence is on that
 card  and to me that is all the written proof I need.

 Jorge



 2013/2/28 jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com

 Jorge,
 1) I am not selling any material from this fall, nor do I plan to.
 2) So much of the material you're selling in your ebay account is so
 painfully misrepresented that I fear no threat from you.  You're
 either woefully ignorant, or a cheat.  Either way, you have no grounds
 to be threatening anyone who points this out.
 Written proof is worth as much as the person who's writing it, which
 apparently means nothing in your case.
 Jason

 On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:18 AM, Jorge M. Gonçalves
 galeriaco...@gmail.com wrote:
  You've got some nerve to come on the Meteorite List and start exalting
  your
  specimens from Russia and condemning my own. Pardon my language
  expression,
  but who the fuck do you think you are???  As far as I'm concerned I'm
  the
  only one showing  written proof from the seller, as far as I know all
  the
  other pieces don't come with any written proof showing any authenticity.
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Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[jason utas]

Hello Adam, All,

Actually, Uruacu does appear to be distinct from Campo del Cielo.
Uruacu appears to be a much older meteorite that has weathered in
different conditions, and many individuals show cohenite when cut -- a
mineral I have never seen in Campo del Cielo.  Generally speaking,
Campos run the full range from freshly-fusion crusted to rusty lumps,
and everything in-between.  But, Campo fell within the past ~5,000
years, so we're talking about rapid weathering in a wet environment
(also why it's a ruster).  Uruacu fell in a drier area, and most
individuals exhibit a much more uniform covering of shale that does
not readily flake off due to rusting.  They seem to have fallen much
longer ago, and are generally more weathered due to the fact that
they've been around for longer.  Uruacu generally resists rusting
better.

It would be like comparing Sikhote Alin to Henbury.  No Henburies I
know of rust, but, by and large, they're not as fresh as most
Sikhotes.  But some Sikhotes appear to have fallen into swampy areas
and look pretty bad -- and rust.  It's hard to mix the two up.

The trouble is that I've also seen Campos sold as Uruacu, which
complicates things.  Uruacu is a very old fall.  Even some reputable
dealers have been selling specimens of new Campo (crust,
regmaglypts) as Uruacu.  Very different.  I assume this is due to
dishonest suppliers.

There's a stunning, fairly large Uruacu for sale at the moment.  Not
mine, but I wonder if this will bring it out of the woodwork.

Regards,
Jason

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com



 Isn't Baygorria another meteorite with a fake provenance?  Basically a
 cleaned up Campo with a delaminated section protruding after a
 not-so-careful makeover.  I would just tell him to seek first aid so he
 doesn't catch the dreaded Lawrencite disease.

 Adam




 - Original Message -
 From: Randy Korotev koro...@wustl.edu
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:41 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 I recieved a well prepared letter from a fellow with a question that I can't
 begin to answer.  Maybe someone on the list has seen this kind of thing
 before.

 He bought a Baygorria (Iron, IAB complex) from a dealer 3 years ago. He
 picked it up recently to find a metal protrusion sticking out of the thing
 that was sharp enough to prick his thumb.

 Here's a jpg of his scanned photo.

 http://meteorites.wustl.edu/baygorria.jpg

 What's happened here?

 Randy Korotev
 St. Louis

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[meteorite-list] Chelyabinsk on Ebay

[jason utas]

Hello All,
These auctions' photos show freshly fallen ordinary chondrites.  All look good:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/.a./m.html?item=300868095223rt=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2562

http://www.ebay.com/sch/ablipih/m.html?item=121072639061pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c307ddc55rt=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2562

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=160979414962pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0_sacat=0_from=R40hash=item257b1eefb2_ssn=malkki2006_nkw=meteorite+chelyabinsk_nkwusc=meteorite+chelybinsk_rdc=1

http://www.ebay.com/sch/gogig/m.html?item=121073304718pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c3088048ert=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2562

http://www.ebay.com/sch/alexanches/m.html?item=251236221505pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3a7ed88241rt=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2562

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelyabinsk-Russia-meteorite-fragments-/221194267252?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item338034aa74



BUT, BE CAREFUL!



Bassikounou or Chergach:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelyabinsk-RUSSIA-2013-Meteor-Event-19-00gr-Very-Rare-Meteorite-Specimen-/321081034359?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item4ac1ebc677

[Generally, I'd stay way from all of this seller's auctions.  Much
misrepresented material, nothing anyone can do about it.  Their
smaller Chelyabinsk pieces look a little funky as well -- I'd assume
Bensour or similar, but do not have any proof beyond appearance.]

River rock:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/02-15-13-Russia-Chelyabinsk-meteorite-fragment-6-g-Rare-Alien-Shaped-NR-/300868377874?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item460d271d12

Road gravel (light rock with tar on exterior):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelyabinsk-meteorite-VERY-RARE-/251232951607?pt=UK_Collectables_RocksFossils_Minerals_EHhash=item3a7ea69d37

Sketchy auction showing a few photos of stones also pictured in a news
release, with a photo of a cut...something that doesn't really look
like a meteorite in the last photo:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meteorite-from-Chelyabinsk-15-02-13-/230935960665?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item35c4db1c59

If I wanted to buy one of the first pieces of this meteorite (why/why
not?), I'd place a bid on something in the links above the 'be
careful' note.  I can't vouch for the sellers, but if you pay via
paypal, you should be fine thanks to their pretty solid buyer
protection.  That said, we may be looking at a Gao-sized event, so
~$20/g might be a bit much.  But, they're small, pristine, complete
stones from a fall, so you probably won't do too badly.

As you will.

Regards,
Jason

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Tom Randall tommy2...@hvc.rr.com wrote:


 I have bought a number of meteorites from the good folks on THIS 
 meteorite list. eBay is fine, the BUYER has to know the seller. They need to 
 do their homework or they run the risk of getting ripped off.  It's no 
 different than any other sale.

   KNOW YOUR SELLER folks, don't trust people you don't know.  ASK AROUND. Ask 
 people on this list. Ask ME. ASK!
 Point people to this meteorite list.

   If ANY of that Russian meteorite gets on the market you can bet I'll be 
 buying it from someone on THIS list. If affordable of coarse!

 Regards!

 Tom

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Re: [meteorite-list] AD - Black Beauty

[jason utas]

Hello Carl,
On the contrary, the only reason I included the statement regarding
ethylene glycol was because I was informed by a customer that at least
some of the material on the market had been cut with synthetic
lubricant.  S/he made a point of purchasing specimens that had not
been 'messed with' after making inquiries.

And, yes, that statement applies.  Perhaps not to the material from
the 320 gram stone, but the vast majority of the material I have seen
for sale has come from other sources.

I've only seen a few grams of slices from Mr. Piatek's stone, but it
does not surprise me that you would have curated it well.

Though I will say that it was a bit steep.

Regards,
Jason

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Hi Jason,

 I looked at your link. I think you need to revise it since it contains
 false information about the cutting of Black Beauty (NWA 7034) -- at
 least if you are referring to the 320 g main mass that is at the IOM?
 The cutting was done with distilled water -- NOT ethylene glycol
 (antifreeze). Also, stating in your link that our samples were messed
 with seems to be a rather unusual way to describe cutting with a fine
 diamond wire.

 If you want to know anything specific about Black Beauty, I would be
 happy to talk to you about it and how to identify it in hand sample
 and nature of the reduced carbon -- my team has been studying this
 meteorite with numerous lab techniques since August 2011.

 PS: the Science Article print version will be on newsstands Feb. 15.

 Carl Agee

 --
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/

 On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 3:24 AM, jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello All,
 I just finished the page for some fragments of the unique water and
 soil-bearing Martian regolith breccia paired with NWA 7034 and a few
 other stones.
 Please see our website for available specimens.

 http://www.fallsandfinds.com/page88.php

 Thanks!
 Jason

 IMCA 7630
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Re: [meteorite-list] Ka tol Main Mass

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
For a few photos:

http://www.fallsandfinds.com/page71.php

If you're curious about the classification, just find me at Tucson.
Will be in town all this weekend with slices, complete stones, etc.
Regards,
Jason

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Brandon b1dunov...@aol.com wrote:
 I do second that Mike. I am curious what the mass looks like given the only 
 real pictures are from the Indian media and GSI.

 Brandon D.

 On Jan 31, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Galactic Stone  Ironworks 
 meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote:

 Got any photos?  I'm not in the market to buy, but I'm curious what
 the big stone looks like.  :)

 Best regards,

 MikeG

 --
 -
 Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
 Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
 Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
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 RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
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 On 1/31/13, Me Teor m3t30r1t3...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Listees

 The main mass from the Ka tol fall is available for viewing and purchase at
 the HTCC in Tucson.
 Please email me if interested.

 Thanks

 M.E

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Re: [meteorite-list] New 4.4g Cold find

[Jason Utas]

Grey interior is still looking into the (ridiculously) thick fusion
crust.  H5/6.
Regards,
J



-- Forwarded message --
From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New 4.4g Cold find
To: wahlpe...@aol.com


Abundant bumps on front are due to metal flakes  - probably H5/6 S? W1/2
Beauty, congrats.
J

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:45 AM,  wahlpe...@aol.com wrote:
 Hi All,

 I found a  4.4g oriented meteorite. It looks like a weathered OC but on a
 closer inspection the back side shows a frothy brown fusion crust with a
 dark interior.Could this be normal weathering for chondrite? I would hate to
 cut it and find out that it is only a OC and ruin the oriented meteorite. On
 a long shot maybe a Impact Melt or CC chondrite?

 Sonny


 http://www.nevadameteorites.com/nevadameteorites/New_Cold_Find.html
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Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bull Update - The NWA OC Rush Part Two, Electric Boogaloo

[jason utas]

Hello Mike, All,

With my most recent batches of submissions, I noticed that the more
interesting classifications were/are often held up due to insufficient
analytical justification (according to the folks in charge of
approving classifications).  Equilibrated OC's all went through in a
matter of days or weeks, and the more interesting stones are...still
held up.

So when a list of equilibrated OC's like that comes up with ~10
missing numbers -- and all of the stones appear to have been submitted
by the same owner at the same time via the same classifying
institution -- you can be fairly certain that there are interesting
classifications still in the works.

Regards,
Jason

 From: MikeG meteoritem...@gmail.com
 Date: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:44 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Met Bull Update - The NWA OC Rush Part Two,
 Electric Boogaloo
 To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Hi Bulletin Watchers,

 18 new OC approvals, all from the NWA dense collection area.  Nothing
 too much to get excited about here, from a collector standpoint.  But,
 we have seen a definite increase in approvals in recent months (or so
 it seems), and the number of official meteorites continues to climb.
 The Saharan Gold Rush may be arguably over or well past it's peak, but
 the classification process will be sorting these out for years to
 come.

 Link - 
 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=sfor=namesants=falls=valids=stype=containslrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmblist=Allrect=phot=snew=1pnt=Normal%20tabledr=page=0

 Best regards,

 MikeG

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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

[jason utas]

Hello Adam, All,
You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to
fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about
it and is unconstitutional.

I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might*
logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects.  It
shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules
versus making an entirely new rule(s).  Calling it twisting is just
misleading.  I address this in my last email, which you apparently
replied to without reading.

Or saying anything, really.  The rest of what you say seems baseless
to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making
these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are.
Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution.

As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find
their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/

You're being a little too dramatic for my taste.

If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land
they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for
keeping track of *their* meteorites.  This all rings too much of the
recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land.

http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/

Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by
citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking.

You should read my last email.  It really does address the
antiquities aspect of things.

And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM
resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining
permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from
BLM land, it  means that you're making money from finding them.  Most
such things require permits.  It does seem inconvenient to me, so I
can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but
taking it this far just seemsa bit much.

I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite
hunter should care about these laws.  Apparently the limit is 10 lbs
per year, not 25.  But how much Franconia do you really want?

Jason

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile
 Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago.
 Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard.
 Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper
 way to go about it and is unconstitutional.  The word meteorite
 couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago.  Now
 this has all changed.


 The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now
 be considered a criminal.


 Freedom isn't for free,

 Adam



 - Original Message -
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

 Hello All,
 I'd like to point out a few things:

 As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do
 not affect me.  These new rules primarily affect the commercial
 interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on
 public land and sell their finds.   A precious few people publish any
 information on their more 'important' finds.  It often takes years for
 such information to reach the public, if it does at all.

 Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the
 past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of
 knowledge.  I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there
 are more.  They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't
 find photos online.   Not for fear of the government claiming them,
 but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in
 the field.

 Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that
 kind of information.  And now his finds are being touted as examples
 of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite
 the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of
 us Southwest hunters.  [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding
 large meteorites?  Seems unlikely, doesn't it?]  That said, such a law
 won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm
 still not seeing the point of supporting either side.

 *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance.  Seems
 like a qualitative judgement to me.

 Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites.  But, as a group, our
 primary interest isn't the advancement

Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

[jason utas]

Hello Jodie,
You're nit-picking terminology more than anything else.  They may not
own the land, but it's under their jurisdiction.  A policeman may
not own his sidearm, yet you being a citizen, are still not allowed
to use his publicly owned property.  He has jurisdiction over it.

The above analogy is funky because the sidearm serves a purpose for
the policeman, whereas the meteorite simply holds scientific and
monetary value.  But when I see spectacular meteorites like the 300
pound main mass of Glorietta Mountain diced and sold for personal
profit, I believe that constitutes misuse of public property.  And
since we're talking about meteorites that belong to the public, my
opinion is a valid one.

Why do you think I included the references to the local Occupy the
Farm idiots over here in Berkeley?  They decided that UC-managed land
was as good as theirs, and that they could do what they want with it.

That's not how public property works.

If it's owned by the federal government and managed by the BLM,
the BLM gets to set the rules.  You may not like the way that the BLM
runs things, but the system was put in place by politicians we, the
people, voted into positions of power.  In this case, it sounds like
many meteorite dealers have a special interest (e.g. meteorite
hunting/selling) and care about policies that the BLM is enacting --
policies that the population at large does not care about.  If the
minority is loud enough, they might change things to the way they want
them to be.  If they can't manage that, well, this is a democracy.

Our government may not own anything at all, but I'm glad that they
have the power to manage large areas of land, because corporations
and private citizens are not capable of responsibly keeping many areas
of land -- and especially areas of natural interest -- safe *or*
clean.  We know that for a fact.

And organizations like the BLM need money to do that.  Since the
permits mentioned in the BLM regulations are only necessary for those
who will profit from exploiting resources on land managed by BLM land
(selling meteorites), I see no problem with the regulations.  What's a
$100(?) permit compared with the sale value of ten pounds of
meteorites (4,510 grams) from the American Southwest?  Nothing.

I'm all for smaller government and less bureaucracy, but all of this
libertarian stuff is getting on my nerves.  The BLM serves a purpose,
and, as best I can tell, you're pissed off because of a few
incompetent employees.  That's not a good reason to simply forego any
oversight on vast tracts of American land that would no doubt be
abused immediately without oversight...and are abused, regardless, but
to a lesser extent.  I've spent more time in the desert than most, and
know that much firsthand.  If you want to reform the BLM, that's a
whole different issue.

Regards,

Jason



On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:17 AM, Jodie Reynolds
spacero...@spaceballoon.org wrote:
 Hi Jason,

 The BLM's land?!?!?!

 Would you explain to me how _they_ acquired such real property? How
 they maintain it?  How they staff their offices?  How their
 employees go about eating?

 I'm clearly out of the loop - I was kinda under the impression that
 the group We assigned to manage land couldn't actually _own_ any land
 since buying, maintaining, staffing, enforcing, [...],
 it would require your money, Adam's money, and my money.  I know I
 didn't authorize their actions.  I suspect Adam didn't authorize
 their actions.  So now we need a disclosure of precisely who did, and
 precisely what public hearings in the interest of the public to which they are
 SERVANTS decided this would be the case.

 And that's the ultimate point:  The BLM doesn't OWN _any_ land.  We
 The People can boot the entire lot of their leech-like and utterly
 worthless hineys out to the street any time
 we decide to defund them.  Along with the rest of our alleged
 masters who exist only to serve us.

 Please don't fall into the trap of believing our government can own
 diddly-squat - that's the root of the issue here - they've
 overstepped the authority that WE have given them and need to be
 reminded of such.  Many of the People seem to have also forgotten who
 actually runs this joint.  They need to be reminded of who the
 masters actually are.

 Warmest Regards,

 --- Jodie



 Monday, December 3, 2012, 12:38:53 AM, you wrote:

 Hello Adam, All,
 You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to
 fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about
 it and is unconstitutional.

 I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might*
 logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects.  It
 shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules
 versus making an entirely new rule(s).  Calling it twisting is just
 misleading.  I address this in my last email, which you apparently
 replied to without reading.

 Or saying anything, really.  The rest of what you say

Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

[jason utas]

Adam...with all due respect...

You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the
gullible one.  I just told you how a system like that might operate
based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I
have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school.

This isn't rubbish someone told me.  It's the nature of the beast when
misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game.
Sinister motives almost never come into play.  Such decisions are
often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for
twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand
that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing
commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by
proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by
amending an existing one.

And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician
might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon
it.  You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it
sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but
personal bias to back it up.

Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed
down your throat.  We live in a democracy, though.  It happens.  I'm
paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which
I voted against.  C'est la vie.

Re: Peter

One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the
sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a
black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of
science.

Doubt it.  The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold
are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc.  It's the odd other meteorite that
makes its way to the market.  New falls are really what's at risk here
-- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs.  For most dealers,
though, I can't see this as being an issue.  Since most stones are
already being sold privately, it doesn't matter.  If worst came to
worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given
stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM
regulations that apply to finders.

In short, there's no need for the development of a black market,
even if people wish to be unscrupulous.  I think these new laws are
silly, but that's about it.  I have the feeling that others are using
such strong language because they do fear later amendments that aren't
so easy to get around, but...I'll fight that battle if and/or when it
arises.

I believe that a “free market” for meteorites encourages people to
hunt for meteorites.

Perhaps.  Most hunters in the Southwest seem to hold onto their finds,
by and large, but many do not.  That said, this does not change the
free-market nature of meteorites in the US.  If people follow the
rules, it will simply attach a nominal fee to hunting on BLM land
(and, theoretically, one could hold off on getting a permit until
after finding something in order to guarantee no unnecessary loss of
fees).

The more people hunting the more meteorites found. The
more meteorites found the more meteorites that can be studied by scientists.

Right, but conjecturing that fewer meteorites will be found with the
new regulations seems odd to me.  I'd be amazed to hear of anyone on
the list planning to hunt less based on the new regulations.

Perhaps the terms of the
permit could be something along the lines of a $100 onetime fee that would
allow the hunter to hunt on BLM managed land. If the permits require
environmental impact statements and/or large fees none will be sought or
issued.

Of course.  I'm guessing the ease of getting a permit will be along
the lines of a hunting permit, but there's really no way to know that
without trying to get one.  Since the selling permit wouldn't raise
the collection limit or allow industrial hunting equipment, it seems
unlikely that they would required EOR-type material.  The only likely
disadvantage I see is that hunters with a commercial/meteorite vending
permit will be more likely to have to pay taxes on their sales...if
they weren't already doing so.

Jason



 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com




 I have never sold a single piece I have found on federal land and this
 is not what it is about for me. I do not see how I am being overly
 dramatic when our rights are being trampled by people who watch too
 much television, believe everything they read on the net and are
 clueless.  You have much to learn if you think the government
 bureaucrats are out to protect you.  It is all about careers, power
 and money for those who push pencils behind a desk.  It is rare these
 days to find a bureaucrat that actually wants to serve his base
 without alternative motives.

 A very few regulations are a good

Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

[jason utas]

 when they turn up (e.g. Old Woman).  SoI'm not seeing
the difference between then and now -- unless you sell your finds and
don't like the idea of getting/renewing a permit every year.  Even
though, if you fall into that category, you're taking meteorites that
legally belong the the BLM off of public land and selling them for
your own profit.

If it's a counter-argument the dealer population wishes to put forth,
then fine.  But they should at least call it what it is.  Meteorite
dealers make money by trading in a scientifically valuable commodity,
and protecting their right to sell meteorites found on public land in
the US is of course high on their list of interests.

It's a special interest.

--

Other things -

--

Martin - please stop using Australia as an example.  We've gone over this:

Primarily:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dNthXb8AJ5cJ:six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2011-January/072151.html+cd=1hl=enct=clnkgl=us

And (scroll to my message):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:UaGbL6qt2gsJ:six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2010-December/072063.html+cd=1hl=enct=clnkgl=us

--

Adam - ambiguously bringing up stones like Kalahari 009 as examples of
mismanagement (private or public mis-management?) is odd.  Since the
stone was found by a private party, if anything, it shows that
individual people aren't likely to be responsible curators of
meteorites.  Having personally seen some prime examples of personal
*and* institutional mistreatment of meteorites, pointing out
individual examples doesn't accomplish much more than pointing
fingers.

I personally don't see why it's a horrible fact that Kalahari 009
wasn't studied as much as it could have been *when it was found.*  We
haven't lost any information or scientific capability.  Just time.
Science isn't running out of time.

Conversely, the meteorite could have been cut up and sold, with only a
small portion of it going to science.  Which outcome is better is
entirely a matter of opinion.

--

Richard brought up the 300 lb Glorietta Mountain siderite as an
example of a wonderful meteorite that was brought to light by the
private sector.

I believe it is a perfect example of both sides of the issue.  A large
(historic?) meteorite of significant size was found on public land.
It probably would never have been found without private sector effort.

It was then cut (almost entirely) and sold for profit.  The largest
known mass of a large American meteorite that theoretically belonged
to the American public and probably should have gone to a museum, was
instead...well, it's gone.  I hope you enjoy the photos.  The finder
wasn't wrong to do that -- it was entirely his prerogative.  He owned
it.  But I believe that these new laws may be partly intended to keep
such things from happening.

Whether you see that as good or bad depends on your values, but I'd
like to share my own.

Would that meteorite ever have been found without the private sector?
None of us can say, but it does seem unlikely that it would have
happened in the near future.  But we do know one thing for sure --
that monolithic meteorite is *gone,* and you can be certain that it's
not coming back.  Ultimately, the specimen was a source of income for
a meteorite hunter, and the sum of what we have to show for it now is
a bunch of slices scattered around the world -- that I can't tell
apart from Seymchan.

--

Most of the large American meteorites discovered on public and private
land in the past few decades (that have surfaced) have been cut and no
longer exist.  They were cut for profit.  There's a very long list.

I like to think that there's a reason we really appreciate the
Smithsonian and AMNH to see large rocks.  We enjoy seeing photo albums
from various museums' collections on Facebook.  Big rocks from outer
space are great for outreach and education.  And they're intact, so if
anyone ever wants to do research on them in any way, shape, or form in
the future, they're available for that.

We're the reason that so few of these rocks are being preserved,
despite the fact that we admire them.  Isn't it odd?

The only reason that I feel I might oppose these new regulations now
is because there's the chance that if they're passed, they *could* be
made more stringent in the future.  However, since the current wording
doesn't affect me, I don't mind it.

All of this adamant nay-saying seems a bit much.

Jason



 From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 4:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Hi Fred,

 Artifact would imply that your legislative authorities do believe in the
 existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and Jupiter.
 Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate some more
 modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library of Congress

Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - 3 New African Approvals (Acfer and NWA)

[jason utas]

Hello MIke,
Perusing the data, I noticed the following phrase in the description
of the EL5: Opaque phases are mainly kamacite and troilite, almost
completely weathered to iron oxides.  --  And yet, the stone was
deemed W1?
Might someone qualified be willing to comment on this?  I'm confused.
Regards,
Jason




 From: MikeG meteoritem...@gmail.com
 Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 11:17 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - 3 New African
 Approvals (Acfer and NWA)
 To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Greetings Bulletin Watchers,

 3 new approvals - an EL5, CV3, and L5.

 Link - 
 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=sfor=namesants=falls=valids=stype=containslrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmblist=Allrect=phot=snew=1pnt=Normal%20tabledr=page=0

 Best regards,

 MikeG


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