Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites and geology

[Mr Eman via Meteorite-list]

Can't send you the answer says no mailbox. Rely if you still need am answer

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Abdelfattah Gharrad via 
Meteorite-list wrote:   Dear Lists, 
please clarify the relationship between geology and meteorites. 
Thanks,Abdelfattah.

 
|  | Garanti sans virus. www.avast.com  |

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Re: [meteorite-list] Willamette cutting question

[Mr EMan]

Hello John

Circular diamond coring bits only came into use recently. The Willamette 
donation was in the early 1900's. I can only assume that the saw method of the 
time dictated the location of the cut: large heavy frames using a wire loop 
with abrasives hand fed into the grove.  It is not like one could easily rotate 
the mass easily. 

I am happy to see the use of core sample extraction more frequently in 
sampling. However, coring has a drawback in that it is very difficult to 
lubricate and can heat up the core changing some magnetic states.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Frank's hypothesis

[Mr EMan]

It is a statistical certainty that Apollo era urine is still in lunar and 
Terran orbit Perhaps it has been freeze dried.  Would make an interesting 
micrometeorite.

Elton

--- On Tue, 9/8/09, E.P. Grondine  wrote:

> From: E.P. Grondine 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Frank's hypothesis
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 8, 2009, 10:17 PM
> Hi all - 
> 
> Theoretical physics question of the day:
> 
> Years ago I read of a stable Earth-Moon orbital path. Now
> the Earth outgasses, so some of this would appear to go into
> this orbital path. Could water accrete there in that path,
> and then return to Earth, or would the vacuum just tear any
> accretion apart again?
> 
> In any case, it looks like what Frank saw was an instrument
> artifact.
> 
> Ed

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Re: [meteorite-list] Plessite and Schreibersite. was Widmanstatten Pattern

[Mr EMan]

As the ravages of time rake through my memory...some is coming back to me.  The 
mineral Plessite is an intermediate mixture of both taenite and kamacite. It 
may be the bulk mineral in iron meteorites.  I need to find it it is also the 
composition of the iron flecks in common chondrites of does that nickel-iron 
come in various flavors?  

I am remiss for not speaking of plessite more frequently when talking about 
kamacite and taenite.

Its name even means filling ( Gr:plythos) It's German name is Fulleisen

Buchwald and Massalski named some varieties(according to Wikipedia):
* acicular plessite/Type I plessite
* black plessite/Type II plessite
* cellular plessite/Type III plessite
* comb plessite
* net plessite
* pearlitic plessite
* spheroidized plessite

My recollections are that schreibersite favors almost exclusively taenite 
boundaries( I may be mistaken again) and this is where I got insight into my 
private hypothesis that phosphorus is a critical factor in differentiating 
taenite from kamacite on the macro level.  I suspect(dangerous I know) that the 
schreibersite bands/fronts, once developed provide a catalyst zone preferential 
for taenite and/or nickel, drawing it through the laminae and stacking it 
behind the front. As the taenite builds up the front advances into the plessite 
so long as the temperature remains within the phase envelope.  Now if I can 
find that envelope...  I can't begin to theorize how schreibersite accreted to 
the band that it does when it does but it seems to have a propensity to do so.  
In ataxites schreibersite can form crystals plates instead of bands. Owing to 
its yellow brassy color my be mistaken for troilite. 

I am throwing this out in case anyone has some journal articles on the subject 
or cares to discuss the chemistry.  If and when I find the specific of past 
research I'll pass that along.  For now I want to get the Goldman pdf file and 
see what I should already know at my age.

Elton

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[meteorite-list] Antitaenite

[Mr EMan]

I see that a new mineral came and went last decade and I don't recall a 
discussion of it on the list. Course the list was may not have been around in 
1995!  It was found in Vaca Muerta. Fe3Ni. I also see that the IMA rejected it 
as a new mineral.  Passed along for your perusal from the wikipedia article: 


Antitaenite is a meteoritic metal alloy mineral composed of iron and nickel, 
20-40% Ni (and traces of other elements) that has a face centered cubic crystal 
structure. Its existence as a new mineral species occurring in both iron 
meteorites and in chondrites was first recognized in 1995.[1] There are three 
other known Fe-Ni meterotic minerals: kamacite, taenite, and tetrataenite. The 
pair of minerals antitaenite and taenite constitute the first example in nature 
of two minerals that have the same crystal structure (face centered cubic) and 
can have the same chemical composition (same proportions of Fe and Ni) - they 
differ in their electronic structures: taenite is a high magnetic moment alloy 
whereas antitaenite is a low magnetic moment alloy. This unique difference in 
electronic structure was first established in 1999[2] and arises from a 
high-magnetic-moment to low-magnetic-moment transition occurring in the Fe-Ni 
bi-metallic alloy series.[3] The same
 electronic structure transition is believed to be a causal factor in Invar 
behaviour.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] What is and isn't a Widmanstatten Pattern was Cooling rates

[Mr EMan]

I guess once again as with CCDs my education is outdated.  I see that any metal 
compound or mixture can be called an alloy. OR it has come into such common use 
the distinction between mixture and compound is obsolete when talking about 
metals.

Elton

--- On Tue, 9/8/09, Mr EMan  wrote:

> From: Mr EMan 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What is and isn't a Widmanstatten Pattern was 
> Cooling rates
> To: "Meteorite-list" , "Jeff Grossman" 
> 
> Date: Tuesday, September 8, 2009, 6:38 PM
> --- On Mon, 9/7/09, Jeff Grossman
> 
> wrote:
>  < are described as
> "alloys" in that they are composed of various metals
> combined together.>> 
> 
> I understood the distinction was that the Fe Ni formed a
> "chemical compound" not merely a mixture like copper and tin
> to make brass but even brass can form crystalline plates so
> that may be a bad example. It was my understanding that were
> it not for the mineral structure The Fe-Ni would be called
> an alloy.  Agreed that it is frequently discussed in
> terms of alloy.
> 
>  < liquid state and solidifies.>>
> 
> I stand corrected, 30 years is a lot of facts to keep in
> just one's head. I did recall correctly that there is a
> temperature range and below which all translocation stops.
> Seems off the top of my head it is 800°C.
> 
> < is controlled by the Fe-Ni-P phase diagram>>. 
> 
> I have long suspected that phosphorus was a key component
> in the process--likely as a catalyst.  The
> Schreibersite seems to exist largely at the boundaries in
> thin laminae even surrounding trolite nodules.  I look
> forward to reading Goldstein's paper.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] What is and isn't a Widmanstatten Pattern was Cooling rates

[Mr EMan]

--- On Mon, 9/7/09, Jeff Grossman  wrote:
 <> 

I understood the distinction was that the Fe Ni formed a "chemical compound" 
not merely a mixture like copper and tin to make brass but even brass can form 
crystalline plates so that may be a bad example. It was my understanding that 
were it not for the mineral structure The Fe-Ni would be called an alloy.  
Agreed that it is frequently discussed in terms of alloy.

 <>

I stand corrected, 30 years is a lot of facts to keep in just one's head. I did 
recall correctly that there is a temperature range and below which all 
translocation stops. Seems off the top of my head it is 800°C.

<>. 

I have long suspected that phosphorus was a key component in the 
process--likely as a catalyst.  The Schreibersite seems to exist largely at the 
boundaries in thin laminae even surrounding trolite nodules.  I look forward to 
reading Goldstein's paper.

Thanks again,
Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] What is and isn't a Widmanstatten Pattern was Cooling rates

[Mr EMan]

We had a metallurgist on the list a few years back that insisted Widmanstatten 
patterns were found everywhere and posted some micrographs supporting his 
assertion.  As I recall he got very ill with us when we pointed out why, what 
he had photos of, weren't Widmanstatten patterns. It was focused on a physical 
"casual" similarity not "causal" chemistry.

Once again Widmanstatten patterns aren't stress fractures nor alloy specific 
patterns. I further assert that metal in meteorites is NOT an alloy in that the 
nickel is in a specific locus within a molecule. It is therefore not a mixture 
but a compound, chemically speaking.

Widmanstatten patterns are a cross-sectional view of crystal latices that 
result from the migration of nickel atoms over eons into two distinct unusual, 
zoned, crystalline arrangements. Bandwidth is actually plate thickness. The 
migration is chemically driven while the metal is molten and only occurs in a 
specific range of temperatures. This is a subtle but distinct difference. This 
migration may even be a molecule by molecule transfer of nickel atoms which 
takes millions of years to clear out a 3mm band. This is to say a nickel atom 
may move in one side of a molecule and forces the central nickel atom to the 
face and lacking stability is ejected out the other side--maybe not, as the 
actual displacement/sorting is still an enigma.  The nickel iron content may 
assemble from a single form as it accretes and represent a move to homogeneity 
interupted when the mass ran out of thermal energy.  It may all start out as 
taenite and part of it converts to
 kamacite or vice versa. Who really knows? 

I fully believe collisions would impede if not stop the process-- not speed it 
up.  It is easy and natural to try to infer a similar pattern might be from a 
similar process but the only similarity is in low contrast photographs when the 
scale is ignored.  

Elton

--- On Sun, 9/6/09, E.P. Grondine  wrote:

> From: E.P. Grondine 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Cooling rates
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, "Steve Dunklee" 
> 
> Date: Sunday, September 6, 2009, 1:47 PM
> Hi Steve, all - 
> 
> I don't think they're due to repeated collisions. 
> 
> Suppose that we have molten iron/nickle under incredible
> compression, which is then almost instantaneously released.

> 250 parent bodies seems like a lot. Perhaps instead there
> was more differentiation within fewer parent bodies.
> 
> Ed
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Re: [meteorite-list] weird rock - meteor wrong

[Mr EMan]

Yes I do or in the local dialect "yeppers".  Silicate slag (a glass with also 
with bands of ceramic/clay) a bi-product of iron smelting which has been 
produced and disposed of-- all over Pennsylvania for at least 240 years.  It 
was a popular automotive and rail road bed filler.

This was tapped off the furnace onto a floor allowed to cool them broken up by 
workers to be hauled off.  This is (ore + flux-iron-CO2)= (silicate glass+ 
clay).
Elton
--- On Fri, 9/4/09, Mike Hankey  wrote:
> anyone know what this rock is:
> 
> http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/meteor-wrong-buy-what.jpg
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Re: [meteorite-list] Let's talk about meteorites

[Mr EMan]

--- On Thu, 9/3/09, Alan Rubin  wrote:
<> 

I think this theory has a potential fatal flaw if what we think we know about 
taenite/kamacite growth is valid.  Without an insulating blanket the molten 
pool will not exist in a molten state long enough to permit crystallization aka 
Widmanstatten patterns.  

Be it remembered that Widmanstatten pattern/crystal growth is very very slow on 
the order of 10's of degrees cooling per million years. It is difficult to 
develop a scenario that integrates a large crater on an Goldilocks Asteroid 
which works. 

Goldilocks: Not too small as escape velocity is so low there is no fall 
back/re-accretion to bury the melt; Not too large as the asteroid would have 
already differentiated into a metallic core...so it has to be just right, at 
the threshold of the larger size with sufficient gravitational acceleration to 
not just recapture ejecta but to do it rapidly enough to insulate the molten 
metal.  I envision a steeply conical deep crater which could minimize the 
amount of fall back ejecta to cover the surface. keep the pool--if in fact, 
such one exists.  This scenario also requires to nearly identical impacts; one 
down the throat of another, millions of years apart.  This tends to disfavor 
the crater floor theory on just the statistics. It would be interesting to 
locate a crater on an asteroid that fits the definition of Dewar flask. 

Popigai, here on earth had the depth and fall back to insulate a 600m melt on 
the crater floor and it only stayed molten for "a few thousand years" Not 
millions! This was a scenario that was given all benefit of favorable condition 
and still could not stay molten long enough.

I can see why this theory has some doubters.  Were we able to find a rapidly 
quenched FeNi meteorite without the Widmanstatten marker than I could see a 
scenario for this theory, but to my meager knowledge of irons I can't recall 
one. One caveat, I can not positively confirm any silicated iron (e.g. Miles) 
shows or doesn't show a pattern when etched.  Ergo, I may have made the case 
for validating or invalidating the theory.

As far as impact-induced melting and melt pockets scattered around the 
interior, meeting the insulation demands, I find much more reasonable.  A 
vignette example would be Portales Valley as it proves a process on a micro 
level indicating the possibility that it has operated on a macro level.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Wind Scorpion Meteorite Hunter

[Mr EMan]

Gosh, now I know where my ex mother-in-law got her genes!!!
Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] More eBay cancelled auctions

[Mr EMan]

To mention once again: I am fairly sure it is against eBay terms of service to 
sell an item outside of eBay once listed for the duration of the auction and 
for an additional 90 days(?)there after.  So delisting an item to sell it to 
someone else outside the ebay system for whatever reason is a violation of a 
seller's agreement with eBay.

Delisting an item because it isn't drawing a high bid is a specific violation 
as the listing was structured to avoid paying reserve auction fees if no 
reserve price was imposed.

Elton

--- On Sat, 8/29/09, Galactic Stone & Ironworks  wrote:

> FWIW, I would never cancel an auction with bids because the
> bidding was too slow or disappointing.  I may end a listing
> that has no bids at all, but never if it already has bids.  I just
> don't think it's ethical.  (unless there is a valid reason like the
> item was broken or lost)

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Re: [meteorite-list] Aussie Photographs Meteor Through Telescope: NOT

[Mr EMan]

I need to revise and extend my remarks from before.  This probably is a meteor 
in spite of our first judgments. I too piped in as an early naysayer because I 
was thinking in the film paradigm. I've rethought the image in the digital 
paradigm.

Long and boring and technical rationale:

I've looked at the photo through an image processing application where I can 
zoom down to pixels and believe I can account for some things which we casually 
dismissed before because it was not what we were used to seeing.  There is some 
actual color data in the head of the fireball when I adjust the Gamma.

1. If we assume the bulbous tip was a terminal burst not just the end of the 
exposure then there need not be an trail of equal diameter all the way back up 
the trace on the image that is the width of the "bulb". I've looked at the 
trail and it appears to have a uniform width save for the tip. The wispy 
segmented trail is a result of a fast moving object crossing many sectors of a 
Charged Coupling Device (CCD) while several passes of the frame scan program 
are going on.(my interpretation) The color data should be present all along the 
trail unless the bulb is a terminal flaring representing a several-magnitude 
flash of energy as we see in a terminal burst.

2. The tail is not as squiggly as we first thought, but seems to be an artifact 
of the CCD array and how the image information is captured.  Be it remembered 
that while film collects the entire image the entire time of the exposure, 
digital "timed exposure" imagery is the summing/melding of thousands of passes 
over the CCD sector by sector, pixel by pixel. Each pixel has to be given 
permission to purge information to make ready for the next pass. even at 
computer Hz rates this can cause a pile up of information as the data is read 
and written to storage. Some pixels simply will not be ready to receive and 
hold light data as the fireball is passing.

3. To make a timed exposure in a digital camera, the data of one pass is added 
to the data of all the cycles before it. The image data is also processed by 
several algorithms to try to accommodate a range of conditions--none of which 
are optimized for a high speed intensely bright object on a black background. 
Likewise, we have no way of determining when the meteor passed as all scan data 
is lost once added to the image file.

4. I won't delve into the full technical aspects of latency of signal and how 
the microprocessor polls the signal from each pixel on the CCD, etc. But- for 
an allegory we are all familiar with, think of how "wagon wheels" in old 
westerns appear to spin backwards on film.  It looks that way owing to a 
difference in frame rate of the film and the actual speed of the wheel's 
rotation.  A timing discrepancy in a digital frame gives rise to a "smeared 
streak" with black gaps at the spots where the data is being reset so we can 
get a "-==_ --==-_ -==-_ -==--_ -==_" for what would have been a continuous 
straight line to our eye. 

5. When we look at the "mask" of a CRT TV that hides the edge of the phosphors 
to make them appear uniform, we see a grid of black rectangles.  CCDs have a 
similar grid/blind grid. When an object crosses the screen horizontally-- 
keeping on just that row the line is straight.  Cross it diagonally and it 
looks like a series of step downs or step ups. Add in the aberration of lens 
curvature, a slight internal vibration from the drive motor, process through a 
jpg compression algorithm and you get a "squiggly" line even at normal zoom!

All in all, in light of what I remember now about digital still-frame 
photography, this is a righteous shot.

Elton

--- On Sat, 8/29/09, Rob Matson  wrote:
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Aussie Photographs Meteor Through Telescope: 
> NOT, ... Absolutely *NOT* a meteor.--Rob
> 
> http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=49164&highlight=meteor
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[meteorite-list] Calif Fireball 7-8pm local Aug 28

[Mr EMan]

I have an apparent major fireball sighting Simi Valley/ Thousand Oaks/Stockton

Just a heads up.
Elton
><<
The ball of light was white and large and had a very long trail of smoke. It 
was in the Simi Valley/Thousand Oaks area. Anyone else see it or know what it 
is?

<<
I saw the ball of light from Stockton. It was in the Southern sky right below 
the moon. It was a large ball of light and had smoke trailing. It fell straight 
down then wobbled down even further, seemed like a couple of seconds. I'm sure 
of the exact time but it was somewhere in the range of 7-8 p.m. I thought it 
was a plane crash but obviously after not hearing any news I figured it was 
something else. Wish I had my camera pointed that way, it was definitely an 
amazing sight!
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Re: [meteorite-list] Aussie Photographs Meteor Through Telescope

[Mr EMan]

IF this were a timed exposure, then the head would have been a constant 
diameter along the trail.  IMHO

Elton

--- On Sat, 8/29/09, Mike Hankey  wrote:

> From: Mike Hankey 
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Aussie Photographs Meteor Through Telescope
> To: "meteoritelist" 
> Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 2:08 AM
> http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=49164&highlight=meteor
> 
> Australian astro photographer says he snapped a pic of a
> meteor
> through his telescope. Its a 4 page thread so far, seems
> its up for
> debate. Imagine that. What do you guys think?
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hunters Sentenced- new information

[Mr EMan]

Bill  the woman was elderly and just a few weeks before had been broken in on, 
robbed and possibly beaten as I recall from early accounts.  Had this the 
trespassing happened before this robbery She would have likely offered them ice 
tea.

I agree it was a vote getting ploy for the judge and the DA.  The charges and 
bond far exceeded what would have happened in any case where local deer hunters 
walk across anothers land during hunting season.

Elton


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Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted

[Mr EMan]

The corollary--I ask because they obviously have confederates (if not actual 
members themselves) on this list-- maybe they can bring us a Mercury sample?  
Maybe Venus? Phobos?  Demos? Saturn ring tektites?

I have some glass beads, tin mirrors, iron hatchets to swap.  (It worked once 
before thought it might be worth a try).

I agree that even 20 -100 years is unlikely unless we accidentally encounter 
them in distress, I can't imagine any advanced culture with even the slightest 
knowledge of our history feeling contact with us as a prudent step in their own 
history! Ask any surviving indigneous person on any contintent.

Of course my dog is arguing that it is already occurred only we are too dim to 
recognize it.  He does this all the time and what does he know? He has not been 
to college and hasn't read but half the books I have!

Elton
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[meteorite-list] Source for sudden influx of Martian meteorites discovered

[Mr EMan]

Panoramic digital photograph reveals two meteorite hunters( possibly well 
financed IMCA members) disguised as Bedouins, in the distance collecting 
meteorites by following a US Vehicle. 

This was not detected until much later, only after processing and posting. No 
one can be sure how long this piggy backing has been going on.  Apparently the 
vehicle's make and model were discovered and followed.

Towards the last 1/3 of the sweep.



Collectors had noted the spike in new martians with dubious provnence, now we 
know.
Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Delays in processing samples

[Mr EMan]

This is a quick message to all those that have send me samples in the couple 
months-- most everyone is on the list. I've been on bed rest and haven't had 
the time to look at everything and write everyone back.  I've several hundred 
emails to look back through so if you've not gotten an answer in the next two 
weeks feel free to prod my memory.

BTW: I've a very limited quota for classification opportunities this fall 
especially if NASA's budget falls again. If you have something hot as in other 
than common chondrites, feel free to send me details and photos off list and we 
can discuss it.
Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Cease fires and Cataloging and Displaying collections was question

[Mr EMan]

--- On Wed, 8/19/09, steve arnold wrote:
People have to learn to grow up.
>  Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! 

I was unsure I'd ever see a day I'd be in agreement with you Steve. I/We 
promised to not "bash" if you would stop doing things worthy of bashing. If you 
completely refrain from talking about it and I/we will also. 

This has been a good cease fire arraignment so far so please don't push it.  
Seems to me that you would know you are pushing your luck with your other 
comments, knowing the things we have agreed to not talk about on list.  I hope 
you are not doing it to inflame those members that think you have c**d, 
l**d to, or not p**d for meteorites you b*t or that you s**d and t**k money 
for and n***r shipped or those who you may have gn f**e meteorites to for 
example.  If you are going to make comments "on list" knowing others have 
agreed to keep differences "off list" then are we to understand you are 
dropping the cease-fire? I hope not. Lets never mention them again nor give 
cause to mention them, Ok?

Lets talk about positive things we can agree on like your great meteorite 
display in the hall. Did yo make it yourself? For others--how to you keep the 
dust off?  Do you prefer clear doors?   

I like Steve's design and have been designing my own. The only other better 
display I've seen was the one made by Walter Branch which I think he sold on 
ebay meteorites and all. 

I'd like to hear how others-- including Steve of course, store and catalog 
their collection. I wish my catalog had been up to date when I had my accident 
because I am having to do a lot of paperwork after the fact proving what was 
turned into very very expensive road gravel else swept up by the road cleaner 
and taken to a landfill. I do know when I get settled I'll be photographing 
EVERY Collectible I own.  That will ensure I'll never have another calamity!

How do others maintain records for insurance purposes?

Regards
Elton
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[meteorite-list] Science comprehension: state of affiars-OT

[Mr EMan]

For a pastime I occasionally help answer questions on Yahoo Ask!. Most are by 
lazy, late, approaching deadline, homework assistance requests --but It helps 
me keep a finger on the pulse of education and learning amongst today's 
adolescents.  Occasionally there are the "navel contemplatives" but those who 
are truly stumped by the real world and are looking for a legitimate answer. 
Here is an example destined for the annals of "most astonishing".

Elton

This one is too amazing to not share:
Question:
Why do we have north and south poles?
..i want to know... i couldnt find the answer anywhere.

Actual given ANSWERS: One is satire and one is just plain hilarious.

a. When they tried to have East and West poles, the weather got really screwed 
up, and we had an ice age, or icee age.
Everybody got cold, and they voted to put the poles on the North and South 
after the civil war was done with them.
Now we have something called greenhuose gases, so they're sending all the 
blondes away to the East and West poles again.

You won't notice a difference except for where the sun goes up and down.
Oh yeah, and the tides. And we're going to lose the moon this time for sure.

But I'm just guessing.
~AND~
b. I think we do have North. I don't know if we have South.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Bob Walker

[Mr EMan]

Is someone else off their meds again or does someone dislike folks from the 
southern hemisphere in general??

I don't think you have a leg to stand on, Howard, regarding lecturing others 
about list ethics... but Bob's dealings with The Chicago person or vice versa 
are known to many and I think Bob phrased it politely given the circumstance.

Elton

--- On Tue, 8/11/09, Howard Steffic  wrote:

> From: Howard Steffic 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Bob Walker
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 5:27 PM
> 
> Was it necessary for you to post the comment about Steve
> Arnold?  YOU should be thrown off the list Michael for
> forwarding such crap to this list.  It is bad enough
> that everyone jumps down Steve's throat themselves without
> you forwarding for someone who for some reason can not post
> to the list.
>  
> Thanks for the spam.
>  
> 
> Howard Steffic 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Collector ethics... Apology

[Mr EMan]

This is a public retraction to my insinuation that Steve was acting unethically 
regarding his collection as listed on the Encyclopedia of Meteorites website.  
Steve, I apologize for all the appearance of challenging your ethics.  Please 
accept my apology for doing so. Crow was on my menu tonight.

Steve wrote me privately and if I may summarize since it was private he is 
probably a little frustrated with the situation but had no intention of 
deceiving anyone.  The meteorwongs/meteorsuspects were inadvertently uploaded a 
long time ago and Steve realized they shouldn't be there but each time he 
removed them they reappeared. This could have been when the EOM was transfered 
and used backed up files, whatever. He has tried once again to remove them from 
the data base of confirmed meteorites.

I have also written the IMCA raising a suggestion that they consider a section 
in the future EOM expansion for suspected meteorites needing an opinion of ID 
and perhaps an archive section for meteorwrongs retained as a learning tool. 

 I know many of us look at photos of other people's material when we are trying 
to see what others think of a particular "strange" specimen. Heck, for years 
that (e.g. eBay) was the only resource most of us had for knowing what "real" 
meteorites looked like. Going by written descriptions alone, as published as 
late as 15 years ago, I could make the case for classifying my '68 VW Beetle as 
an IAB silicated iron!

Again sorry for the tempest but the goal pushed forward, I hope, in keeping the 
EOM limited to confirmed meteorites.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Collector ethics... was What is this?

[Mr EMan]

I'm with Ken on this matter. I, frankly, am dumbfounded to see this material 
held out as meteorites, as I believe a member of an collectors association 
should be held to a higher standard and should police themselves more strictly 
than they police others.  

It is a breach of good taste if not a full fledged breach of ethics to 
co-mingle these specimens that in the slightest way leaves the door open for an 
inference  that these are meteorites!  Showing a "pink" swap implying a 
positive nickel test is dishonest, and at a minimum shows ignorance about the 
occurrence of false positive results in the presence of iron-- DUH.  We've been 
down this path before by other members setting up web pages lumping together 
meteor-wrongs with meteorites in some magical belief that doing so will make 
the wrongs transform into real meteorites.

Clearly the ability to set up a nice web page doesn't translate to the ability 
to identify meteorites not a license to do so haphazardly.   Not speaking for 
the other than myself, as membership qualification is the purview of any trade 
organization, but membership in such organization implies to me something above 
the novice level about meteorites.  Seems some can buy the logo and leave 
ethics at the door since membership infers a status of expertise quick ride to 
the top. I think the logo displayee owes the entire community of meteorite 
collectors a duty to be totally honest as shabby or shady implications reflects 
on the individual and it harms any student of meteorites buy presenting 
blatantly bogus specimens.  

Self-naming of suspected meteorites when the naming of meteorites is a well 
established known process is indefensible and a disservice to the public.

Makes about as much sense to me as it would be to hold out myself as a brain 
surgeon because I've see some brain photos, grew up watching M.A.S.H. and 
dissected some frog brains in biology.

I further agree that we all should really do a reasonable amount of foundation 
study before shooting baloney theories about rocks and minerals in general and 
the source of magnetism in naturally magnetic hematite nodules.

Elton 

> 
> camp acapulcoite
> camp diogenite
> camp howardite
> camp pallasite
> camp122006
> Limedale
> Mammoth Springs
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Re: [meteorite-list] Interesting crystal in meteorite - what is it?

[Mr EMan]

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Pekka Savolainen  wrote:
> To me the form of the crystal looks like typical
> plagioglace feldspar, (labradorite), (anorthosite + albite),
> /N//a/(/A//l//S//i/3/O/8)/C//a/(/A/12/S//i/208).

Agreed in principle--  Going by the semi-waxy luster, cleavage, and apparent 
crystal form this is certainly not a pyroxene and highly probable that it is a 
feldspar.  How this came into being and came to be in this meteorite present 
some intriguing --probably rare conditions to explain it.

Thanks for presenting it Gary.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another video of Pennsylvania 6JUL09 Fireball? YES!

[Mr EMan]

Hey Folks.  I calculated the PGH area camera LOS at 126 degrees and the meteor 
path is well east of that so I am not seeing a West to East path for sure and 
looks like back to a SE to NW track?

Am I missing something?
Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Chesapeake Impact Specifics?

[Mr EMan]

Ok Ok ok...  I found this article cited (but don't want to pay the $32 to 
download it):
"Ancient impact structures on modern continental shelves: The Chesapeake Bay, 
Montagnais, and Toms Canyon craters, Atlantic margin of North America by C. 
Wylie Poag, Jeffrey B. Plesciab and Phillip C. Molzera" in "Deep Sea Research 
Part II: Topical Studies in Oceanography
Volume 49, Issue 6, 2002, Pages 1081-1102
Ocean Impacts: Mechanisms and Environmental Perturbations " and it cites 23 
additional craters associated with Chesapeake Not including Tom's( River) 
Canyon.  I assume these are all subsurface.  Anyone with access to the article, 
does it have a graphic/map for this crater field or explain how they were 
located?

Looking at the cross section at Wikipedia; the breccia "pile" is 99% contained 
in the buried crater so it may be 4200ft thick and the central peak is far 
below the rim of the crater so it may be 3000ft high.  What the author failed 
to mention is that the whole structure is more than a half mile below ground 
level!

I guess all things are relative but we fail to grasp the relationships at 
times--in this case to "sea level".  Speaking of sea level which we know varies 
over time-- the new testament speaks of the "Sermon on the Mount".  Well been 
there and done that and the "Mount" is about the size of a buried school 
bus--AND it is about 400 ft below sea level--another thing not depicted 
correctly in 2000 years of bible inspired art.

Elton

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[meteorite-list] Chesapeake Impact Specifics?

[Mr EMan]

I found the below report at an "answer" site on the internet about Chesapeake 
Crater (35my) but it looks comingled with another crater's data.  The asker saw 
this on a UHaul Truck. I thought the Uhaul featured panel was the Iowa Manson 
Crater(74my).

Specifically what doesn't seem correct:

 "Apart form the main crater, there are 23 other satellite craters (around 1 
1/4 to 3 3/4 miles in diameter)."

AND:
"it contains a peak/hill 3,000 feet high its the middle, just like large lunar 
craters. The depth from the outer rim of the crater to its crater floor is 
~5,000 feet."

AND:
"Surrounding the crater is a thick ejecta blanket 4,250 feet thick, containing 
huge blocks and breccia ejected out of the crater in the moments after the 
impact."


Any idea where this data came from? and if it isn't Chesapeake which crater are 
they talking about?

Elton

Questionable Article:

The Chesapeake Bay impact structure was formed 35.7 million years ago during 
the late Eocene period. It is 52 miles in diameter. The impact structure is 
completely buried under 1000 to 1600 feet of sediment, because it is buried it 
was only discovered by seismic surveys carried out for oil & gas exploration.

The centre of the crater is buried under the town of Cape Charles, Virginia. 
Apart form the main crater, there are 23 other satellite craters (around 1 1/4 
to 3 3/4 miles in diameter).

The Chesapeake Bay impact structure is a classic peak ring impact structure, it 
contains a peak/hill 3,000 feet high its the middle, just like large lunar 
craters. The depth from the outer rim of the crater to its crater floor is 
~5,000 feet. Surrounding the crater is a thick ejecta blanket 4,250 feet thick, 
containing huge blocks and breccia ejected out of the crater in the moments 
after the impact.

The impact is associated with a 2 degree Celsius drop in temperature and a 
minor extinction event. The Chesapeake Bay impact also produced the North 
American Tektite strewn field, tektites are impact "shrapnel" ejected from the 
crater, and they can be found all along the east coast.

The Chesapeake Bay impact is the same age as the 13 mile wide Toms Canyon 
impact structure off New Jersey, and it is only a little younger then the 62 
mile wide Popigai impact structure in Siberia, Russia. The large number of 
impacts in such a short space of time, maybe due to a cometary shower. That a 
large number of comets were sent hurtling into the inner solar system from the 
Oort cloud by a close encounter with another star systems gravity field.

From: Ancient impact structures on modern continental shelves:The Chesapeake 
Bay, Montagnais, and Toms Canyon craters, Atlantic margin of North America by 
C. Wylie Poag, Jeffrey B. Plescia & Phillip C. Molzer
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[meteorite-list] I not the met-list proctologist

[Mr EMan]

Dear List

I hope the good folks on this list understand that I am not the list 
proctologist*. The claim that I am presently or recently outspoken on the list 
regarding the malcontents isn't true. If you have an issue with something I 
say, please write me directly so I can address it. Don't put it on the list 
unless you've given me a chance to address it first.

Once again, so it is absolutely clear--I AM against the list being used as a 
platform for hate and personal attack.  I AM NOT against the list being used to 
alert other members to fraud and dishonesty, especially when it is 
matter-of-factly listing the facts.

I recently addressed all sides about not letting the troublemakers govern our 
enjoyment by letting their attacks become a topic of discussion. I have written 
a few list members in private to discuss dishonest statements that continue to 
be made on list.  But other then being drawn in by proxy, I am not here to 
discuss problem personalities.

The distinction is I have elected to contact the parties directly , not ON 
LIST, and not brought the conflict to the list other then to respond on list 
when Utas selectively posted the parts from a private conversation to justify 
the violations of his own standards.  He did not answer questions as to that 
justification, but used the second post to go off on yet another bizarre tirade.

If it has gone unnoticed-- I have been attempting to abide by the list's nobler 
decorum.  Whenever I've failed, I have asked for forgiveness, admitted my 
mistakes and moved on. In years past I have challenged dishonesty and fraud. I 
do not do that anymore-- not because it was morally wrong but it did not 
contribute to the greater purpose. I try to be a person of good karma.

Yes, against my inner voice, I did post a plea for us to not even feed the hate 
mongers and those whose perverse enjoyment is satisfied by continual injection 
of their games, but to promote harmony and free discourse about meteorites 
themselves.  Unfortunately hat post triggered a flashback and has now been used 
for a private vendetta to drive more wedges in the list. Some people react 
irrationally to being asked to stop misbehaving and there is just nothing 
practical to do about it other than not feed their need to blame others.

The situation going on now it entirely the doings of Jason Utas's need to play 
out his vendetta play in front if an audience.  Jason won't address questions 
put to him and won't contact me off list.  Instead he continues to send 
deliberately false statements on list.  I have no control over his choices 
other than to fall silent and remove myself from his game. I hope the members 
understand I am not a willing player just because he is using snippets of my 
emails.  There are too many "fake facts" by Utas to refute and no one cares. 
Like me, they just want the silliness to stop. 

There is a single correction I will make, I am proud to be the 1st generation 
of joiners after the charter members formed the list we know today. I took 
meteorite 101 from the original couple dozen charter members.  I've been here 
since since nearly the beginning and am not a "new comer" who "came here just 
to find newbies to bully". 

Thanks for hearing me out.  

Elton

*Proctoligist: Medical specialist that fixes a**holes.
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Re: [meteorite-list] [off-list]<--NOT WHATS WITH THE ATTACKING

[Mr EMan]

Jason wrote: "Posting messages that were intended to be kept private to the 
list is wrong - unless they are necessary in proving a situation such as a deal 
gone wrong, or cheating having taken place,"

So Jason which of your listed situations applies to what you've just done? 

Were you drunk or has that testosterone problem flared up again? You are so 
predictable-- You attacked Tom, for posting private emails to the list and 
within 6 hours you've done the same thing. You've really let me down--I 
expected it within no more than 4 hours!  Just as predictable, you didn't have 
the guts to mail me a copy directly.

You've proved what I said about you was right on -- you are incapable of having 
a man-to-man direct discussion, so you have to enlist the entire list hoping 
someone will help take the heat off your hypocrisy. Put up or shut up.  Show me 
you've got a pair and address me directly and off list.  Stop bothering the 
list with your co-dependency crap. 

Your discourse started me reflecting.  I've 186 or so semester hours, postgrad 
Clinical psych, plus 6 months of internships with sex offenders in southern 
prisons, state mental hospitals, Alzheimer victims and Chronic DUI offenders so 
if you want to debate such content, lets form a group at yahoo and have at it 
but, this isn't the place for it. (NOTE: I have grounds a plenty to justify my 
preference for meteorites over that for humanity). Oh and you've had what...a 
self awareness class? Did you pass?

Oh! and even though you try to bait me out with false statements here, recheck 
your claims next time you do post to the list... Other than ask in a general 
way for us all to avoid list confrontations over personalities and keep to 
collecting or commerce issues (which YOU projected to be a post solely about 
Steve), I've posted nothing to the list about Steve since the temporary eulogy 
when he "left" last time. Put up or shut-- show me the specific post you ramble 
on about; I know you keep all mine in your scrapbook.  

Seems clear that now it is you doing the "Steve postings" just like he likes it 
to happen and tying to make trouble by deliberately distorting reality. Your 
post speaks for itself and you've done an excellent job of illustrating the 
validity of what I wrote (off list) to you--about you. I rest my case.  

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Possible Impact Event on Jupiter?

[Mr EMan]

Right Mark, that holds for ground impacts. The apparent diameter looks roughly 
3-5 earth diameters and I don't think we are missing a major planet.  I presume 
someone will compare this to the known sizes of Shoemaker/Levy-9 to get an 
estimate since that it the only frame of reference we have for impacts on the 
gas giants.

Elton

--- On Tue, 7/21/09, Mark Abbott  wrote:

> From: Mark Abbott 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Possible Impact Event on Jupiter?
> To: "Viagra.com" 
> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 5:39 PM
> Has anyone heard an estimate for the
> size of the impactor yet.
> 
> If I recall correctly, for an object reaching Earth's
> surface with cosmic velocity, the rule of thumb is that the
> crater diameter is 50 times the impactors diameter. I am
> guessing that factor for Jupiter's cloud layer is going to
> be much larger, being less dense.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Regarding list content

[Mr EMan]

If you are thinking about responding to the "Freebies" string please consider 
this before you make your final decision.  I love you all one way or another,  
Peace.
Elton

This is for everyone on both sides: This is not per se about the source of the 
conflict but the way the members deal with it on the list. I am not doing this 
for him or too him I am trying to get us past a no win conflict. Most of us 
here are united in a common love for the passion of meteorites only we express 
that love in different ways that seem to be in conflict. I railed against a 
particular thing here( no not fusion crust on irons) because I felt threatened 
and I felt the hobby was threatened. Something woke me up and I no longer feel 
I need to protect others that join.  Their passion will either live or die by 
their own decisions. I don't have to mentor them nor steer away from traps and 
scams. I no longer feel a need to rescue folks even when they don't want 
rescued.  that said what I am saying next will seem an oxymoron.

Regarding list discussion on a macro-level:  If folks are going to defend him 
on the list, then it is only fair that we allow on the list also a full 
disclosure of the reasons he is despised.  The personality alluded to is 
sophisticated and plays games by selectively showing bi-polar sides of his true 
nature. To defend the "good-side" without knowledge if the other side is 
disingenuous. I'd rather not even discuss either facet on the list, feeling 
anyone that wants to know the whole story is free to ask and those that don't 
are on their own to experience the hobby land mines and all

 Likewise no matter how offensive and cheated others may feel, to rage against 
the person is only feeding their reason for acting out. It took me a while to 
relearn what I already knew.  There is no way to win other than to not play his 
game.

I am sure those that only knew Dr Jekyll thought him a sweet cuddly harmless 
character too. If your opinion is that this is the sole nature of the beast 
contact me off list and I'll be happy to show you to Mr Hyde's record. It is 
just what it is and we collectively should deal with it in a fashion that 
causes the least controversy. When raged to pen off a rebuke remember if the 
person behind the other screen cannot control his illness, social reward and 
punishment has already been tried here and failed--do you really think you can 
control it--especially with all the enablers ready to step in?   As 
counter-intuitive as it seems, any attention positive or negative is rewarding 
the behavior.  I am asking everyone in the light of this knowledge to ignore 
his presence. Defending him, attacking him, enabling him, responding to 
him--yes in writing him for his freebies you are rewarding his style. If we 
really care about the list then everyone including the
 spoilers, please be totally neutral for 2 weeks at first and see if we can 
make it another 2 weeks at a time.

So I ask everyone to not feed any of the monkeys by giving them attention on 
the list.  I'd rather tolerate the occasional posting than fight in a no win 
contest. (Cage cleaning assignments have been posted)

So I will not have to ever bring this up again and violate my own admonition 
about discussing IT.  I need someone willing to provide a notarized 
statement/affidavit who was an eye witness to a specific someones presence in 
Tucson in February for a certain pending fraud case to go forward. Please 
contact me off list.

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Re: [meteorite-list] GPS Device located on my car!

[Mr EMan]

I ment to say this before  but this is IMCA business as formated and this is 
not the list for that discussion.  In fact the IMCA list is not for this 
discussion.  There are published procedures for filing a complaint against an 
IMCA member even if the complainer isn't a member.  Based on the rant I don't 
see that this likely falls under the perview of the IMCA.

Oh and for one that diss'd and downed the organization you sure do come running 
to them alot.

I am sorry for your distress, truly I am.  I know too well personally what it 
is to have a POS anger me.  All I can offer is the knowledge that you can 
choose to think about this in another way and it would not cause such a shock 
to your sensibilities.  Feel some joy in knowing it wasn't a warrantless device 
placed on your car by a scummy FBI agent that things rules are an inconvienance.

Enjoy your trip but I have to ask...
" Did you pack your lugage yourself?"
"Has anyone unknown to you had access to your luggage since you packed it?"

Elton

PS: anyone know what color Mike's Wife's airplane is?  Come on Mike it has some 
humor to it.  They wouldn't be doing this unless you were the front dog in the 
pack.

--- On Sun, 7/19/09, Michael Farmer  wrote:

> From: Michael Farmer 
> Subject: [meteorite-list] GPS Device located on my car!
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 12:51 PM
> 
> I demand a full IMCA investigation. Today while preparing
> to depart for field operations in southern Arizona, Greg
> Hupe discovered an illicit GPS tracking device placed under
> my car! Ruben, I know it was you! 
> This is an outrage, I feel so violated that the trauma may
> keep me out of the field for a few days. Sadly this will
> lead to the loss of inmportant data. 
> Below is a photo of the object discovered. Anyone with any
> information on this object please call me ASAP.
> 
> http://meteoriteguy.com/ebayauctionstockphotos/tracker.JPG
> 
> My wife will now be dropping us from her airplane into the
> hot zone. Camping at my gate is futile. 
> Michael Farmer
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Re: [meteorite-list] Apollo landers photographed from orbit--NOT

[Mr EMan]

This is the cover story that the public was given.  North Korean scientist 
according to Pravda have found these shots were photo-shopped!!!  The same 
scientists claim to have the real unencrypted photos. "They have all been 
displaced to a central location on the lunar highlands.  As many as 7 space 
vehicles abandoned on the lunar surface: 3 decent stage Lunar landers, 2 
Surveyor chassis plus at least 2 Luna landers have been found stacked into the 
shape of what appears to be a medieval catapult.  The inclination and latitude 
suggests that once every 6 weeks the apparatus is aligned on a trajectory with 
an undisclosed endpoint within the former Yugoslavia.

Inquiring Minds!
Elton


--- On Fri, 7/17/09, Darren Garrison  wrote:

> From: Darren Garrison 
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Apollo landers photographed from orbit
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 6:04 PM
> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/apollosites.html

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Re: [meteorite-list] Blackout on AZ fall information

[Mr EMan]

Shh   (whispering) does any body know what type cell phone Mike Farmer 
uses   keep it quiet but pass it along...  Anyone know what color it is???

Elton "Sherlock" Buttinski
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Re: [meteorite-list] OT(WIND Farm, ie SPAM) Meteorite Men Promotion

[Mr EMan]

I have examined some of those freebies and they are NOT meteorites... maybe 
that can be worked minds of the masses.  

Elton

--- On Mon, 7/13/09, Darren Garrison  wrote:

> From: Darren Garrison 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT(WIND Farm, ie SPAM)  Meteorite Men Promotion
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 1:34 PM
> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:12:29 +0200,
> you wrote:
> 
> >But such figures need also an eeevil counterpart,
> >To fight with - else they would be boring for the
> children...
> >
> >Any ideas?
> >
> 
> Well, Steve Arnold has his evil alternate universe
> namesake, Steve Arnold.  His
> relentless drive to purchase, then give away, every
> meteorite known to man is a
> Machiavellian plot to stymie Steve Arnold's Quest for
> Ultimate Wealth.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Astro Mikes meteor streak Photo

[Mr EMan]

Well one thing for certain this NOT the same perspective which was first 
posted.  Live an learn.

Elton

--- On Sat, 7/11/09, dean bessey  wrote:

> From: dean bessey 
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Astro Mikes meteor streak Photo
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, deanbes...@yahoo.com
> Date: Saturday, July 11, 2009, 6:59 PM
> 
> I hate to be a party pooper when everybody is all excited
> about having a photo of a meteor fall but astro mikes photo
> shown on his webpage here:
> http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/
> Is not exactly all that it is cracked up to be.
> Reporters are renouned for not properly checking their info
> in an effort to get a scoupe but somebody deserves a
> raspberry over this one and at least somebody should have
> seen this photo for what it is before newspapers started
> printing it.
> The greenish streak is a starboard (right) wingtip nav
> light, the centre red is the rotating anti-collision beacon,
> and the red streak is the port (left) wingtip nav light. The
> two brighter white centre lights are the landing lights or
> maybe white tracking lights depending on what type of
> aircraft it is. It would have been flying up the photo to
> the left of the observer. There was a slight wind making the
> pilot crab into the wind which explains the non perfect
> parellel lines.
> The photo has quite a bit of dust and mike needs his CCD
> chip cleaned.
> Basically, While he was inside waiting the the long
> exposure photo to finish an aircraft flew through his
> image.
> Cheers
> DEAN
> 
> 
>       
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[meteorite-list] Meteoroid Energy Calculations

[Mr EMan]

I just did for some "for funzies" calculations about the kinetic energy a 
meteoroid has during certain phases of flight.-- WOw!

Sorry for our metric friends I calculated results in foot pounds and US Tons.

A 5 kg stone passing into darkflight which is going around 1788.889m/s --a 
little over a mile per second but faster than a standard military 30.06 rifle 
bullet:5,900,732.17 foot-pounds --almost 6 million!

Same stone when as it drops below supersonic speeds(341.97m/s): 215,632.7 
foot-pounds  About 108 foot tons!!

At terminal velocity of 200mph or 89.44m/s that is 14,750.346 ft/lb 
or 7.5 foot-tons of compression at impact as it is converted into a meteorite.

For 1kg stone:Darkflight:1,180,146.43 Mach:43,126.54 Impact:2,950.07 ft/lb

For a .1 kg (100 gram) DF:118,014.64 Mach:4,312.65 Impact:295.01 (somewhere 
between a bullet and a record fast pitch baseball)

30kg at the ground:88,502.08--44 tons! THAT has to produce a seismic 
signature!!!

This is also why I feel the true main reason Carancus excavated a crater, was 
that at the high ground altitude the booger was large anyway and had not bled 
off all the cosmic velocity and was probably still traveling at supersonic 
speeds. Say Carancus was only 300kg it would have hit the ground delivering 
12,937,963 foot pounds of force if traveling anywhere near a supersonic 
velocity.

Calculate yourself at 

 They've a great many online calculator functions worth book marking!
Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA

[Mr EMan]

 On Thu, 7/9/09, Darren Garrison  wrote:
> >Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a gram,
> depending on how rare they are, Arnold said. 

> Three guesses which figure any property owner reading that
> is more likely to ask for...



ROTFL MSOMN ( Rolling on the floor laughing milk squirting out my nose)

Thanks I needed that Darren, great timing.

I remain baffled at what looked pretty simple plotting and aiming sent me in 
such a different direction. I don't see how so many distant observers felt and 
saw a fireball coming from an almost opposite direction from what they 
reported. Then again test results and beauty contestants show Americans are 
geographically illiterate compared to the rest of the world.

Thanks Steve for the efforts to find hard data.  This will be one for the 
books. Early on I got a feeling this fireball came in from the east coast, 
stopped, backed up and took a right and turn to the north just going by the 
blog entries I read.

Hopefully, our folks are closing in on any debris.  Speaking of debris a lot of 
dust is generated in these trails that settles to the ground after the event so 
someone please remember to sample the surfaces of felled trees, gutter spouts, 
etc. looking for micrometeorite spheres. Just one more technique and data set 
to consider which we might be able to work back from to refine trajectory.

Elton

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Re: [meteorite-list] Google Earth Kmz file for July 6 Fireball PA Version 2 available

[Mr EMan]

The "plotting" thickens

I have finished plotting the bearings from the fireball reports where bearings 
noted including correcting transcription typos. So witness locations have 
azimuth legs projected over the ground and one can see where they tend to 
overlap. In Google Earth you can turn off the lines you wish by deselecting the 
box by the file name. Track names in this case correspond to the AMS log for 
event 371 a,b,c,and so on to t.

We now have a well documented photo through a telescope in Freeland, MD thanks 
to Mike Hankey which can be viewed at  who 
happened to be taking a timed exposure of known objects. The derived Az and El 
for the track of the fireball from this location is AZ 73°, AL 63½°, and had a 
bearing toward the east-northeast horizon courtesy of Kelly Beatty at Sky and 
Telescope(TM).  We also await the specifics from a security camera in York, Pa 
in order to generate another precise azimuth. 

Some reports still do not fit the over all data and frankly there are 
information snipets a float which give credence for up to 4 different 
trajectories/ground tracks.  One which is emerging as the new leader is one 
which carried the fireball towards York, PA but we still can't make a statement 
if the it passed East, West or Over York.  That is to say that it is looking 
less likely that there was a direct East to West trajectory parallel to the 
PA/MD State Line and ending over Maryland as I previously estimated.  

Someone will announce when they have been uploaded to a website or if you need 
it tonight email me off list.

Again this is a collection of reports that have been graphically rendered to 
make them easier to evaluate. They were released to give a consolidated overlay 
on a map.  I placed a straight edge along the margins and looked for possible 
tracks where reports agreed--That is where two adjacent witness locations 
agreed that the fireball passed between them.

A final note on understanding elevations.  Generally the closer you are to a 
fireball's path the higher in the sky it will be. Those reports with low 
elevations tend to be at a much greater distance.

Regards,
Elton
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[meteorite-list] New Ad Hoc Fireball research group at Yahoo.groups

[Mr EMan]

Short gist: I felt the need for a working group /discussion platform to sort 
out the nitty-gritty details regarding a major fireball sighting. Also to give 
a sounding board/ semi-peer review for conclusions before they are released 
into cyberspace.  I hastily set up this group until something better happens it 
is not cyber empire building. I invite co-owners.  I/we need a couple fair 
minded moderators and a bunch of meteor/meteorite seasoned individuals who are 
willing to learn and share in a synergy setting.



Our goals are to bring long time experts to the table to discuss the process of 
collecting data and to assist field investigators--many newly interested with 
whatever fireball flew over their head last night-- with a positive step by 
step approach to putting together an accurate picture of the event.  This is 
not a meteorite hunting group and it is not just about finding meteorites.  I 
hope it will be a venue for consolidating fireball data for all facets of 
fireball behavior and to preserve it for future researchers.

As noted on the homepage this is a supplement to our more familiar groups not 
meant to take away from routine discussion or present day mission of any 
organizations.  It is to handle the increased flow of technical messaging that 
peaks after an event and to insure someone taps all sources of data regarding 
the fireball in question.  Eventually we hope to have guides on how to go about 
collecting information what equipment to have on hand and how to conduct a 
field interview etc. to speed the process or collecting data while the memory 
is fresh.

Any member will be able to post but if you just want to join to watch the 
mind-blowing  er numbing exchanges you are welcome to sit in the balcony. Other 
bloggers and writers are welcome to use our results in their feeds for the time 
being --but remember we will have privacy issues when it comes to private land 
owner names etc which should remain within the group.

That said we are open for business and there is certainly lots of work to go 
around don't be shy.

Regards,
Elton

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Re: [meteorite-list] Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor

[Mr EMan]

Thank you for stepping up and great work there Kelly on the elevation, I have a 
planetarium application on my computer but knocked off at 4am on trying to get 
an elevation based on a general Baltimore location on the evening and time in 
question.

Let me address several points in the broader area of having to rethink and 
rework traditional data collecting on fireballs in general and this one in 
particular.

Yes--there is some emerging data which points to a more SE-NW (as opposed to a 
E-W) trajectory than was indicated before. This could result in a fall/terminus 
back inside PA between Gettysberg and York.  If so, this raises a caution 
against accepting at face value, the reliability of self-reported fireball 
reports. As I've mentioned before, a part of the science is an on site 
interview with the witness to refine their experience with simple tools and 
confirm their true orientation.

I believe seismic data can be used to reconstruct the trajectory/ground path 
even if the thump of a fall is not detected. Given that the US Air Force has 
now made satellite data classified, we need to find and validate other data 
sources which go untapped for fireball track information. This event lends 
itself to that validation.

I am working on another fireball for which seismic data is scant but shows two 
deviations.  One consistent with the sonic boom arrival time and another approx 
30 min later consistent with a fall from altitude arriving on the ground.  
These "spikes" are in the usual capture of events such as mine blasting, truck 
accidents, train couplings, etc. which seismologist have no reason to explore.

I know that sonic boom signatures were captured by seismometers as early as the 
60's--I believe even for the Shuttle Orbiter's returns--They don't rise above 
the level of typical noise unless one matches them with the known time of the 
event across several stations. I believe the 9-11 towers collapsing rose to the 
level of earthquake energy, if memory serves.

I believe that in the normally captured --but normally discarded data, however 
weakly it is captured, is a scientifically valid signature of the ground track 
for fireballs such as these.  In this case we have reports of sound energy so 
strong that houses shook and in one case a report of a pressure change within a 
house that included slapping open exhaust fan shutters. Be it remembered that 
in the old days of unrestricted supersonic flight over land the Air Force paid 
for a lot of cracked windows.

As to this PA/MD Event something with this much energy is going to show up on 
seismograms but the seismologist that review them won't recognize as such 
because they only think in the paradigm of things which are of earthquake 
energies. We need to get them thinking above the ground.

Finally, it takes weeks to put together a working team if you are within 
academia and more so if one request the data from the private sector. I hope 
someone with connections on the list might be able to get a seismologist 
interested in making a network inquiry-- For reasons unknown to me, there 
appear to be multiple seismic network arrays and affiliations that do not talk 
to each other.

Elton



--- On Thu, 7/9/09, Kelly Beatty  wrote:
> my take: this putative fall is unlikely to generate a
> seismic signal if pieces hit the ground at terminal free-fall velocity
> (several hundred mph for really large chunks, much less for smaller ones).
 meanwhile, I've analyzed Mike Hankey's photo. assuming the
> bolide was 1:10 am local time and "falling from the sky", as reports
> indicate, then the  meteor segment in the image he took was centered at AZ 
> 73°, AL 63½°, and had a bearing toward the east-northeast horizon.
 
> clear skies,
> Kelly
> 
> 
> J. Kelly Beatty
> Senior Contributing Editor
> SKY & TELESCOPE
> 617-416-9991
> SkyandTelescope.com 
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[meteorite-list] Google Earth Kmz file for July 6 Fireball PA available

[Mr EMan]

I have exported the plots of the 16 AMS reports as well as some Non AMS reports 
of significance and most of the towns where a witness made a report from. It is 
an 8kb file that you can import into Google Earth. Should work on PC or Mac. 
Possibly iPhones. The purpose of this file is to consolidate reports to aid 
searchers in knowing the situation so they can form their own plans.  I did not 
have time to revisit each AMS report to annotate if they heard a boom, sorry 
but I'd like to get this to researchers.

Notation:
NAMS=a report gleaned from a blog  there are more but mostly repetition and 
don't add to the missing info.

371* is the AMS report set for this fireball-- in this case a thru t.
On a colored path if there is only a single bearing mentioned it is plotted as 
either 371#SE or C. Reports having an arc are 371#S for START or E for END. 
They may be different colors. There are 3-5 reports that don't plot into the 
others well and I attribute those to witnesses that erred on their own ground 
orientation. "PA FB 6Jul2009 V01.kmz" for the initial release successive 
updates will have V02, 03  etc.

Comments/Details are in the popup window when you click on a particular place 
mark. (one observer--probably ex-military, looked immediately at his computer 
screen and reports the time as 1:06) Most NAMS reports are included to show if 
there was a boom or not and weather concurrent or delayed.  Note one report of 
possible electrophonic sound.  

I can mail this out to whomever wants BUT if someone(s) can host it on their 
site and post the list the link, I'd be beholding as I am up to my behind in 
deadlines.  Remember you have to have the free application called Google Earth 
and an internet connection.

Please give me feedback as to any glitches in this file. Expert advice welcome.

BTW is anyone getting the weather and winds aloft data sets? Please let me know 
off list.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hunting in one's own "backyard"?

[Mr EMan]

I want everyone to know that this wasn't a post to dissuade anyone from 
meteorite hunting and it in no means was a dig at Richard's post.  I just took 
the opportunity to put into prespective how deep this hobby is and can be a 
life long quest for understanding. being tied into this list makes up for not 
having the time to do all the prep work.

 My frame of reference for following up fireballs is Europe and the eastern US 
which is a lot different than SW US desert and dry lake hunting--Cali, Nevada 
or Roosevelt County NM, etc. As I have already told Richard, I believe it to be 
a very different ball game out there.

I have my approach but I kinda like the way Ruben does it also. He loads up the 
dog, metal detector, video camera... points the truck in a direction and drives 
until his internal gyro says stop here. After all who has had better success?

If I recall correctly Steve Schoner, who found Glorietta Mtn spent how many 
years looking?

By all means get out enjoy.

Elton
--- On Mon, 7/6/09, Richard Kowalski  wrote:

> From: Richard Kowalski 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hunting in one's own "backyard"?
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, mstrema...@yahoo.com
> Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 5:44 PM
> 
> Thanks Elton,
> 
> I never meant to disparage those who work tirelessly
> tracking down falls and find meteorites. I know a lot is
> involved in the venture and admire the work that they do.
> Especially when their work is scientifically rigorous and
> they properly record the data from the fall as is happening
> now with the fall near Tucson.
> 
> I was curious if searching through farm rock piles might be
> a viable search method for those would-be hunters that for
> all the reasons you cite can't chase falls. There aren't
> many farms here in southern Arizona, so I wasn't planning on
> doing this myself.
> 
> While I hope to be out in the field in the not too distant
> future, I'll admit I'm way too soft to do what most of you
> do. I prefer climbing into bed after a clear night at the
> telescope. Finding 1 to 10 new Near Earth Asteroids per
> night sounds a lot easier. 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> --
> Richard Kowalski
> Catalina Sky Survey
> Lunar and Planetary Laboratory
> University of Arizona
> Tucson, AZ  85721
> http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/css/
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Re: [meteorite-list] PA July 6 Fireball Ground plot update

[Mr EMan]

I have hand plotted 16 or so AMS reports on a printed map after assigning place 
marks in Google Earth.  One might look at all the reports and wonder if they 
were looking at the same fireball. Of those, 11 are cleanly plottable, several 
have glaring holes in them but were partially plotted for backup. Two(2) 
witnesses report the fireball seen south of Baltimore and DC. e.g  I believe 
they saw the fireball but were totally misoriented on direction, their start 
and stops are going in the wrong direction. When flipped 180* they fit other 
observations,but treated skeptically in that we really don't know which way 
they were looking.  (NOTE for fireball chasers: This is where a field 
investigator goes on a ground interview and has the witness reconstruct the 
setting and he actually measures the directions with an inclinomenter and 
compass to improve the quality of the accuracy of the data)

The best preliminary "fit" ,based on AMS filed fireball reports and, NOT 
including the concentration of ear witness /sonic boom reports vic. York, PA is:

Thids fireball is inferred to have been moving close to EAST to WEST based 
on a moderately reliable passage point perpendicular to a NS gridline between 
Bel Air, MD and Fawn Grove, PA.  This is is supported by a medium confidence 
eastward sighting from West of Hagerstown, MD. 

Maximum and probable terminus: a cluster of intersecting witness reports 
suggest that the fireball was still visible and moving briskly when passing 
over a gridline generally running NS between Westminster, MD and Hanover , PA. 
More outlying reports suggest that the fireball was yet visible along a 
gridline running NS between Mt Airy, MD and Gettysburg, PA. Given the sharp 
angle in one of the available photos and comparing it to other steep trajectory 
fireballs, this likely did not make it to Hagerstown  and an incandesing 
fireball probably did not pass the gridline running through Fredrick and 
Thurmont, MD Depending on upper level winds and dark flight a meteoroid might 
travel 5 to 30 miles from extinction.  Good new for a change on Eastern US 
fireballs--  This is largely level rural farmland with generous and polite 
native population that is more genteel.  Maryland should by all demeanor have 
been a southern state.

There were mentioned in some other reports of "extinguishing immediately after 
fragmenting" which I haven't revisited.  Be it remembered this fireball was 
catching up to Earth at midnight and this would have had the effect of removing 
15-17 kps from its approach speed, reducing ablation energies and improving 
chances that it dropped a meteorite.

The ole disclaimer:  This was a shake and bake assembly of an already course 
measure of bearing--cardinal compass points vs measured degrees of azimuth. 
Seen as far away as Washington DC is from New York City. Someone with 
experience and technical judgment could plot sonic boom reports to at least get 
a maximum distance since they did not necessarily include flash to bang time.

Elton

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Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely

[Mr EMan]

Disregard the Camp David caution as I don't believe it traveled that far.

Elton

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan  wrote:

> From: Mr EMan 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely
> To: cyna...@charter.net, "metlist" 
> Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:37 PM
> 
> I agree with Darren's new info.  This is probably not
> in PA. I have started plots and this looks more like over
> Maryland's Serpentine Barrens/Belt or more southerly. Which
> may include West Virginia.
> 
> CAUTION:  This could very well be in the vicinity of
> Camp David when more info is confirmed.
> 
> Before you leave for the region you might want to see what
> we can find to narrow it down when we get sensor data. 
> Then again at least the Amish don't shoot trespassers.
> 
> Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?)

[Mr EMan]

My Bad, Peter, I thought I remembered him having to pick some of it up off the 
ground,  I didn't realize it had entered the trunk/boot.

Thanks

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, Peter Scherff  wrote:

> From: Peter Scherff 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have 
> info on these? (or specimens?)
> To: "'Mr EMan'" , "'Meteorite List'" 
> , "'Galactic Stone & Ironworks'" 
> 
> Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:19 PM
> Hi Elton,
> 
>     The photo of the car that the Neagari
> meteorite hit is still up.
> 
> http://earth.s.kanazawa-u.ac.jp/ishiwata/labo/neagariUS.html
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> -Original Message-----
> From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com]
> On Behalf Of Mr EMan
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:10 PM
> To: Meteorite List; Galactic Stone & Ironworks
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer
> Falls - Anyone have
> info on these? (or specimens?)
> 
> 
> 
> > Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite. 
> > The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning,
> in the city of
> Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his
> car and meteorite
> fragments were on and inside the boot."
> 
> Yes the claim was substantiated and an interesting thing
> about this car hit
> was that the stone was apparently spinning as it left a
> pin-wheel pattern in
> the scraped paint.  At one time there were photos on
> the web.
>  
> I believe he found the main mass lying in the street and it
> matched it to
> the the indentation in the "boot".  Yes there was a
> puncture.
>  
> Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely

[Mr EMan]

I agree with Darren's new info.  This is probably not in PA. I have started 
plots and this looks more like over Maryland's Serpentine Barrens/Belt or more 
southerly. Which may include West Virginia.

CAUTION:  This could very well be in the vicinity of Camp David when more info 
is confirmed.

Before you leave for the region you might want to see what we can find to 
narrow it down when we get sensor data.  Then again at least the Amish don't 
shoot trespassers.

Elton

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, Darren Garrison  wrote:

> From: Darren Garrison 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 3:39 PM
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:40:56 -0700
> (PDT), you wrote:
> 
> >
> >Alright you aspiring meteorite hunters on the east
> coast, a large fireball with explosions that shook houses in
> PA was reported at 1:10 am this morning! If there are
> explosions, it is close and can be found.
> >No excuses, as some of us are busy in Arizona.
> >Michael Farmer
> >
> >http://www.wgal.com/news/19966650/detail.html
> 
> More:
> 
> http://weblogs.marylandweather.com/2009/07/a_masondixon_meteor.html
> 
> A Mason-Dixon meteor?
> 
> We have been receiving reports today of a likely meteor
> over north-central
> Maryland and southern Pennsylvania early Monday morning.
> (Not the one in the
> Flickr.com image above.) 
> 
> Below are the first reports we have received. If you heard
> or saw something
> similar, around the same time, please leave a comment.
> Include the time, your
> location, which direction you saw the object or flash, a
> description of what you
> saw, and note any boom or other sound you heard, as well as
> the time lapse
> between flash and boom.
> 
> The York Dispatch:  In York County, Pa., police
> officers from Penn Township,
> Southwestern Regional and Newberry Township reported seeing
> a flash and hearing
> a boom around 1:15 a.m. Monday, July 6, according to local
> 911 centers.
> Officials in Harford County, Md. also reported seeing a
> flash and hearing a boom
> near the Mason-Dixon Line. 
> 
> Capital Gazette: An Annapolis city police officer reported
> that she and her
> partner both saw what she described as a "bright blue light
> in the sky" just
> after midnight. It was followed by "a light with a tail,
> falling from the sky,"
> according to our informant. Annapolis police reported
> hearing a similar report
> on Baltimore County police radio.
> 
> Gary Moon, reporting to The Sun's News Tips: "I heard and
> felt a deep earth
> blast similar to an earthquake, which shook my home in Glen
> Rock, Pa., early
> Monday morning. I thought I would hear MUCH more about this
> one ... nothing."
> 
> Deborah Markow, Havre de Grace: "Last night, couldn't
> sleep, went out on back
> deck, laid on lounge, eyes closed and then it was like
> someone pointed a flash
> light in my eyes it was so bright. I saw another one streak
> through the sky ...
> It was one of the most thrilling sights to behold a ball of
> fire flying through
> the sky."
> 
> I have not yet seen any meteor reports of this event on the
> American Meteor
> Society's Fireball Sightings Log, but it's early yet, and
> this fireball, coming
> in the wee hours after a long holiday, probably did not
> catch many people out
> and about.
> 
> Which makes reports like these, and yours, all the more
> important. If you saw
> this object, be sure to leave a report with the AMS, too.
> 
> But judging from the descriptions, it almost certainly was
> a fireball, which is
> simply an especially bright meteor, vaporizing with an
> impressive flash.
> 
> Here's a pretty good example on video.
> 
> They are sometimes followed by a sonic boom, which would
> explain the booming
> noises in the reports. Some fireball observers - though
> none yet for this event
> - also report a crackling or hissing sound that is
> concurrent with the meteor's
> flash and which has never been fully explained
> scientifically.
> 
> Although meteor rates begin to pick up in July, this is not
> the peak time for
> any particular meteor shower. It seems likely this was a
> "sporadic," or isolated
> meteor that just happened to be especially big and bright.
> Big ones like this
> are always unexpected, always startling to witness, and
> always a thrill.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?)

[Mr EMan]

> Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite. 
> The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, 
> Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments 
> were on and inside the boot."

Yes the claim was substantiated and an interesting thing about this car hit was 
that the stone was apparently spinning as it left a pin-wheel pattern in the 
scraped paint.  At one time there were photos on the web.
 
I believe he found the main mass lying in the street and it matched it to the 
the indentation in the "boot".  Yes there was a puncture.
 
Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Opinions on an oddball meteorite I cut open

[Mr EMan]

As I myself was out hunting meteorites today, I had another thought about your 
specimen Mike.  The nickel content of the free metal might be so high it makes 
the specimen less attractive to a magnet.

Certainly an enigma which is probably going to need lab work to resolve why it 
is so atypical.

Good Luck in finding an answer

Elton 
--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Mr EMan  wrote:

> From: Mr EMan 
> Mike, I am coming in to this midstream--but if you can't
> see chondrules BUT can see metal flakes AND it is weakly
> attracted to a ND magnet, then this is strongly suggesting
> this isn't a meteorite.  Some part of the things you've
> found don't seem to fit inside the normal wisdom.
> 
> Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Opinions on an oddball meteorite I cut open

[Mr EMan]

Mike, I am coming in to this midstream--but if you can't see chondrules BUT can 
see metal flakes AND it is weakly attracted to a ND magnet, then this is 
strongly suggesting this isn't a meteorite.  Some part of the things you've 
found don't seem to fit inside the normal wisdom.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw Wizards

[Mr EMan]

Last time I cut with a diamond blade it only would cut the nail and not the 
skin--wanna give it a try and see if thinner blades can cut skin?

Mike they make a slab holder/jig which comes in few sizes that lets you cut 
down below 10mm or so. Once you clamp the stone in the jig you clamp it in your 
saw vice. $20-30 on ebay.

Elton

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, Galactic Stone & Ironworks  wrote:

> Hi Listees and Stonecutters!
> 
> After using my saw on several occasions now, I wanted to
> share a
> recent experience and ask a related question.
> 
> While cutting a small unclassified NWA stone about the size
> of a
> walnut, my stepson showed up and started
> watching.   It made him
> extremely nervous watching me handhold the small stone
> while I cut it.
>  Apparently seeing my unprotected fingers a half-inch away
> from a
> spinning diamond blade was too much to bear.  He is
> absolutely
> convinced I am going to cut a finger off.  (Shows how
> much confidence
> he has in me!) LOL
> 
> He asked why I don't use some kind of jig or holder that
> will hold the
> stone for me.  I showed him my rock vise, which is
> made for use with
> this particular saw.  But the vise is only good for
> larger stones, or
> elongated stones.  It's not much good for holding very
> small
> acorn-sized or walnut-sized stones.  So, I bravely go
> where no fingers
> should go.  He asked what I would do if I cut off my
> finger, and I
> nonchalantly said I would drive myself to the nearest
> emergency room,
> wait my turn, get it sewed back on, and then go home with a
> big
> bandaged hand and type a one-handed email to the list about
> the
> episode. ;)
> 
> So, my question is - how do you cut very small stones on a
> 6" lapidary
> saw?  Do you hand hold them?  Do you use some
> kind of jig?  And how
> many digits do you still have on your hands?
> 
> Honestly, I am not terribly worried about it.  I am
> experienced with
> power tools and saws, so I'm not being reckless.  But
> if there is
> something I can do to make my wife and family feel better
> about it,
> I'd do it.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 10-Fingered Mike (for now)
> 
> 
> -- 
> .
> Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA)
> Member of the Meteoritical Society.
> Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network.
> Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com
> ..
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Re: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - June 29, 2009

[Mr EMan]

What is there about this that makes me think it wasn't photographed in situ?

just kidding --but as always thanks Michael for making these envy-arousing 
shots each day!

Elton

--- On Mon, 6/29/09, Rob Wesel  wrote:

> Damn
> 
> Rob Wesel
> www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
> www.facebook.com/nakhladog

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Re: [meteorite-list] Please explain this terminology.

[Mr EMan]

Remember Mike that all pieces started out as shrapnel once disintegration 
begins.  Only those the fully tumble lose all their shrapnel features. 

The maelstrom of SA's entry was punctuated buy multiple fragmentation events.  
Which as much going on and as busy as the sky was I imagine there are a wide 
range of rare but complicated combinations of features.

It is easy to see how a a roll-over lip could be found on a largely shrapnel 
piece  especially if any part resembles a shuttlecock/fin stabilized form etc.

Elton

--- On Thu, 6/25/09, Galactic Stone & Ironworks  wrote:
> This seller describes a Sikhote Alin shrapnel as having :
> "54 Gram
> Sikhote-Alin Meteorite-w/Sharp"Roll-Over Edges"
> 
> I thought a roll-over lip or edge was an orientation
> feature?  How can
> an exploded piece of shrapnel exhibit these features? 

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Re: [meteorite-list] Even More stupid media use of meteorites + Age of Man

[Mr EMan]

So... what... like a mining gang NEVER EVER pulled a prank on their mining 
engineer? 

Wind or water transported volcanic ash will date to the same age as the ash 
fall they are composed of when using Zircon and Uranium dates because 
mechanical transport doesn't reset the clock. Like most 
UFO/Atlantis/X-File-realm reports, inconvenient facts are omitted so as not to 
leave obvious doubts in the story line.

And YES it does happen in meteorites.  How many people have you helped ID a 
meteor wrong who dogmatically clung to the slimmest of unprovable and dubious 
"fact" while they ignored all evidence that showed their stone was not a 
meteorite?  ( e.g. I know it was a train that hit my dog, I saw its tracks) The 
statement that "I found this rock in my yard and it wasn't there yesterday so 
it must be a meteorite" is not ipso facto valid.  It only means that you do not 
remember seeing it there before you picked it up.

Remember the Cardiff Giant?


The Giant That Fooled the World
...the incredible tale of history's weirdest hoax

When George Hull left his weed-choked, debt-ridden tobacco farm outside 
Binghamton, N.Y., and headed west in 1868 to seek better fortune, he thought 
maybe he'd go prospecting for gold. But he never reached gold country. On the 
way, 90 years ago, he stumbled on something more precious than the yellow 
metal: human gullibility.

The result was one of the most successful scientific hoaxes in history. On a 
total investment that probably didn't top $4000, Hull netted a profit estimated 
at $30,000 to $60,000 -- a small fortune in those days.

Hull's hoax was the famous Cardiff Giant -- a 12-foot statue of a man, secretly 
made, secretly buried, and then "discovered." Hull had a fabulous 
double-barreled lie to go with it: It was either a petrified man or an ancient 
statue -- take your choice. Not only the general public, but many learned men, 
paid to see it and swallowed it whole.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] When the Moon hits your eye like a really, really, really big pizza pie

[Mr EMan]

And I chimed in to note the extreme altitude removed much of the aero-breaking 
trek through the atmosphere which other meteoroids usually experience.

Elton

--- On Tue, 6/16/09, JoshuaTreeMuseum  wrote:

> Hi Carl, Eric:
> 
> Wasn't it our own Sterling K. Webb that determined it was
> the aerodynamic shape of the Carancas meteorite that was
> responsible for the crater formation?  Something about
> the difference between a frisbee and the flat bottomed
> reentry space capsules?
> 
> Phil Whitmer 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Re: Hot Cold again was When the Moon hits your eye like a really, really, really big pizza pie

[Mr EMan]

Any "heat" hot enough to start fires that would be related to meteorites would 
have to be coming from a very large meteorite hitting the ground is from 
molecular bonds being rent in twain not from latent heat within the meteoroid 
which in stone meteorites with low heat transmisivity could chill your beer.  
Irons are better at conducting and storing heat so they might be a little more 
than just warm to the touch.

Ablation studies have shown that the heat of ablation doesn't penetrate more 
than 5mm.  And several meteorites formed a rind of frost shortly after landing. 
 

 One of the Portales Valley stones was found melted to a plastic tarp and 
warm/hot arrival was argued.  But anyone in Texas can relate to the temperature 
of a black body toasted up to cooking temperatures just by solar loading alone. 
I think one can get second degree burns between 140 and 160° F but something 
else would have to be involved to set your pants on fire. 

So in absence of good data I have to remain in the lukewarm to dang cold corner 
of the hot cold debate.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Possible new Illinois meteorite

[Mr EMan]

Joe, Interesting for sure. It looks like much like ore.  I didn't catch if it 
was magnetically attractive. However that is the reason we have anomalous 
achondirtes to search through. Like you offered please keep us informed.  Good 
Luck!

Elton

> Here is a link to see some of them sliced and polished:
> 
> http://illinoismeteorites.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?num=1243030765/18#18
> 
> Thanks,
> Joe Kerchner
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Re: [meteorite-list] Oktibbeha County Super Ataxite? ...was The tale of a falling star

[Mr EMan]

The Oktibbeha Meteorite is a "triple hitter" for unusual meteorites and 
unfortunately only a few grams are still in existence.

I believe someone asked about other meteorites which were found in entombed, in 
burial mounds, etc.   The Oktibbeha County, Mississippi meteorite found in 1857 
in a burial mound   (just West of Columbus, Mississippi in what would have 
likely been Creek Nation Territory). 

The mineral(sic)Oktibbehite was "identifed" in this find but no mineral data 
appears to exist for it. Here is the link for a descriptive mineralogy page:


Even more preplexing is the microprobe analysis from the 1960's which shows a 
Ni content of 60%.  That might be the record!

Elton
 
Here is the text:
SHORT COMMUNICATIONS
MINERALOGICAL MAGAZINE, MARCH I972, VOL. 38, PP. 623-26
The Oktibbeha County iron meteorite
TAYLOR (I857) first described the unique Oktibbeha County iron meteorite, 
whichwas found in an Indian burial mound in Mississippi. It was originally 
egg-shapedand weighed about 15o g, but was split along a fissure by a 
sledge-hammer blow,dividing it into two nearly equal parts, one of which was 
forged, while the other was subjected to chiseling, sawing, and filing. 
According to Hey (I966) about 46 g now remains. Analyses by Taylor and by Cohen 
0892) show a nickel content of about6o %, the highest recorded in a meteorite. 
Hey lists another iron of similar nickel content (La Fayette), but none now 
remains. The next highest is the Santa Catherina iron with about 34 % Ni.
Doubts have been expressed from time to time about the authenticity of the
Oktibbeha County meteorite, because of its extraordinary nickel content, 
although a natural terrestrial origin is improbable, since native nickel-iron 
(awaruite) from N. American localities contains too much nickel (74 to 77 % 
according to Palache et al., T944). Perry (I942, I944) observed phosphide 
inclusions (identified by sodium
picrate etching) in a specimen of Oktibbeha County from the American Museum of 
Natural History, New York, which resembled rhabdite (= schreibersite, (Fe, 
Ni)~P) found in ordinary iron meteorites. The identity of similar inclusions in 
a specimen from the Academy of Natural Sciences, Philadelphia (no. Ioo67), has 
now been confirmed as schreibersite by electron microprobe analysis. Fig. I 
shows scanning pictures of 'rhabdite' in this specimen, taken with the 
phosphorus Ka X-ray line. The formation of euhedral rhabdite-like schreibersite 
requires the very slow cooling typical of iron meteorites.
X-ray diffraction shows the metal to consist of large, well-oriented taenite 
(9,-nickeliron) single crystals, giving further indication of slow cooling. In 
ordinary iron meteorites rhabdite occurs as orientated needles in kamacite 
(a-nickel-iron), and is thought to have formed below 50o ~ The Oktibbeha County 
'rhabdite' probably formed at a considerably higher temperature, because 
diffusion is much slower in taenite than in kamacite at a given temperature. 
There appears to be a definite orientation relationship between the 'rhabdite' 
and the face-centred cubic taenite in Oktibbeha County, comparable with that 
existing between rhabdite and body-centred cubic kamacite in ordinary irons. 
The Philadelphia specimen consists of a slice probably passing approximately
through the centre of the original ovoid mass. At the edge the original 
schreibersite has been heated to form rounded metal-phosphide eutectoid areas. 
The microprobe scanning pictures in fig. 2 show how the heating effect 
decreases with distance from distance of a few ram. In the centre of the slice 
schreibersite is unaltered.
This effect is almost certainly due to the thermal gradient produced by 
shortlived
but intense surface heating caused by atmospheric friction, and is therefore
further evidence for the meteoritic nature of the specimen. Similar effects are 
found
in other iron meteorites.
The British Museum (Natural History) specimen (B.M. 34595) appears to be an
artificially heated piece of material originally similar to the New York and 
Philadelphia
specimens. The metal is of granular appearance in the microscope, and X-ray 
diffraction
indicates disorientated granular taenite. Small irregular areas of barely 
resolvable
metal-phosphide eutectoid distributed throughout the specimen are presumably
relics of the schreibersite in the unaltered material. There is no evidence of 
a thermal
gradient. Photomicrographs by Perry (i94z, ~944) of a specimen from Harvard
University show a similar microstructure.
Table I gives microprobe analyses of the B.M. (N.H.) and Philadelphia specimens,
together with earlier analyses. Neither the metal nor the schreibersite were 
found to
vary appreciably in composition in the Philadelphia specimen, outside the 
peripheral
heated zone. The metal in the B.M. (N.H.) specimen was only slightly variable in
composition.
TABL~ I. Analyses of the Oktibbeha Co

Re: [meteorite-list] prehistoric artifact made of meteorites

[Mr EMan]

Pierre, Here is what I have on the topic but not the details you seek perhaps.

During parts of Desert Shield, I was in Israel and visited the shop of a widow 
who's husband was an artifact broker/collector. This was right across the 
street from the US Embassy which was then in Tel Aviv. I've never found what 
became of her and her shop.

She had no information as to where and when this artifact I am about to 
describe was acquired, as she like many other citizens were packing up and 
leaving given the impending hostilities. In her possession but alas beyond the 
"strictly US Dollar cash" I had on hand, was an embellished artifact which I 
instantly recognized as a small iron meteorite about 2 inches long with 
substantial terrestrial age probably less than a 10,000 but more than 2000. 

It appeared to have been partially press or hammer forged to the extent that a 
deep pocket had been forced into the center.  The rim showed cracks and 
distortions pointing to the center pocket. The pocket itself had a perfect 
symmetry. In the pocket was a goldmetal-lined, half-cup and within the cup was 
a ruby red, dimly transparent glass(?) cabochon-like stone mounted flat face 
up. On the face was a "rampant horse" engraved into the face showing traces of 
gold leaf in the channels. I understand the horse theme dates the artifact to 
the Hellenistic Period(332-315 bce). 

The local Hellenistic Period was several hundred years after the two, three or 
four middle eastern "Iron Ages" depending on the historian.  I recall some 
discussion that the first iron age was thought made possible using a major iron 
meteorite fall and when that material was exhausted there was a break until 
terrestrial iron ore mining and smelting came of age.  I understand it is well 
established that many Damascus Steel Knives and gun barrels(?) were made from 
meteoric iron--much as most Pennsylvanian and Kentuckian Long Rifles were made 
from the Cosby Creek Tennessee iron.

I have personally seen two Georgia Tektites which had been knapped into 
scrapers. From this we can infer that humans are opportunistic and given to 
using gifts from the heavens in whatever techniclogical or artistic means they 
had.

Speaking of middle eastern artifacts, somewhere in my stored collection I have 
ordinary flint, knapped artifacts from Saudi Arabia collected during Desert 
Shield.

Owing to creation-timeline beliefs in which these artifacts fall well before 
the creation of the earth, in Saudi Logic, they simply do not exist, nor did 
any prehistoric human activity.  I forget the exact phrase they use to describe 
the inland uninhabited regions where these were found but, it too includes a 
logic that the land or the ancient tribes also do not exist. Perhaps someone 
remembers the terminology? The non-existent old ones?

This is the same slick logic-system that when confronted with cultural 
conflicts regarding US Service women driving in a country where women are not 
allowed to drive vehicles, declared them "men" for the duration thus defusing 
the conflict.  I think western politicians must have picked that trick up from 
the Saudis.


Elton

--- On Tue, 6/9/09, roche...@cerege.fr  wrote:

> From: roche...@cerege.fr 
> Subject: [meteorite-list] prehistoric artefact made of meteorites
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 6:05 AM
> (sorry for not including a subject in
> my previous post)
> dear list members
> 
> for a research project I am looking for meteorites from the
> Sahara or Dhofar* that may have been used by prehistoric
> man. If you think you have such man shaped artefact in your
> NWAs (or other collection area) please contact me off-list;
> we can expertise it.
> regards *and more generally Africa and Middle East
> -- Pierre
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Re: [meteorite-list] Military intelligence-- still an oxymoron.

[Mr EMan]

Who knows what justification was used but I've got a pretty good idea I know 
what the real reason is.  For 4 months I've had weekly phone calls with AF 
Personnel all over the globe and against all belief I very much suspected that 
something had gone dark. As to the article someone somewhere in the "Gouffment" 
will have issued a press release--tranparency and all that. Rhymes with AFLAC I 
expect.  Then again I might have prompted it by making all those Freedom of 
Information Act fireball data requests.

In the (g)olden days of fireball reports, the data was sanitized (like GPS 
signals used to be deliberately degraded) to make the data useful but to not to 
give away the collecting asset's (RID)capabilities. Dr Peter Brown used to post 
the releases but rumor has it he moved to a foreign but more meteoritically 
progressive country...Canada I think it was.

This will probably get me a visit from a "Yo'Mama Administration Homey-Land 
Dark Suit-Squad" but what the heck!... I estimate by this day and age we can 
probably count nosecone rivets during assent on the other side of the globe and 
detect when an un-named Lunatic National Leader of an un-named Northern 
Division of a divided country in Asia lights up his weed bong.

Elton


--- On Thu, 6/11/09, Fries, Marc D  wrote:
  My favorite part
> is this:
 The upshot: Space rocks that explode in the atmosphere are now classified.
> 
> Yeah, that's it.  You're not allowed to know that
> meteors exist.  Why, that makes perfect sense, and I'm sure that's exactly 
> how the rule change was phrased.
> 
> It seems more likely that someone decided that a clever
> observer could discern important details about our technical capabilities 
> from the information handed out to meteor watchers and decided to clamp 
> down.  It may be a temporary change while they review the policy, but you 
> can't tell from that magnificent piece of professional journalism.
> 
> Magnificent.
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Re: [meteorite-list] A question????? another answer Correction#1

[Mr EMan]

OOps  Popagui is spelled Popigai  and is almost the same age as Chesapeake Bay. 
 I am aware there is a lot of brecciated quartzite in the rim so it is another 
candidate for producing "Earthites" 

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] A question????? another answer

[Mr EMan]

You are too kind, Carl.  Let me address your questions inside your quote:

--- On Fri, 6/5/09, cdtuc...@cox.net  wrote:
Q: I have a few follow-up questions for you; If an Earth meteorite (terrene) 
were to return back to Earth, would we be able to identify it correctly?

A: Yes and No.  IF you look at the locations of recent major impacts(80 Million 
years or later) and consider the bedrock/ target rock-type at the launch 
origin. It narrows the filed of possible rock types.

The best candidate is Reis crater in Germany which lies on limestone.  The 
Canadian shield cluster and Popogui impacts are far too (old we think) and that 
leaves Chesapeake, Chicxulub, The un-named crater in the North Sea off Scotland 
and Wetumpka Al.  So far as I know all these excavated down to deep crystalline 
basement rock so most have a component of igneous rock mixed with the 
sedimentary kinds.  

Statistically the older the impact the more likely that any orbitally ejected 
material will have already fallen back long before mankind existed. Someone 
somewhere did a study of the physics on what sized crater had enough energy to 
eject material at escape velocity and seems like it was in the range of 5 
miles/8km someone with a better database might chime in.

Chicxulub target rocks included slates,sandstone, sulfate rocks and weathered 
lavas .  The sulfates are generally too fragile. Sandstone has a wide range of 
hardness and is more difficult to predict launch integrity and space survival. 
Quartzite remains the best candidate for launch, survival and recognition but 
Popagui in Siberia is over 200 myo(?)(Geoff Notkin knows, he fed the mosquitoes 
there one summer). The crystalline bedrocks are usually pyroxene, mica, 
feldspar, and silica(quartz) mixtures.  Earth rocks tend to have larger grain 
and clast sizes.  Certain grain sizes could only come from Earth as no other 
planet other than Venus could grow them.

That leaves a granitoid rocks and quartzite for best chance of survival and 
recognition.  A fusion crust on those: granite --white to brown with specs of 
black.  Quartzite probably a frosty clear glass coating.

When Limestone is heated it does not melt but turns into highly soluble lime 
(CaO) and Carbon dioxide ( CO2)...so there isn't a fusion crust.  It would be 
white until the first rain.

Q: That is to say would we not simply ASSume it came from the moon? As a
> moon meteorite would also have Earth air or isotopes?

A: Owing that the Earth and Moon came from the same stock we share the same 
isotope abundances so there is no isotope ratio test to differentiate them. 
Again grain size and clast sizes would be larger on material from Earth

We make new supposed Lunar meteorite discoveries with new
> materials all the time. So again I ask is there a way to be
> certain where it came from? I ask because if is not mostly
> plagioclase, it seems to me most investigators would simply
> toss it aside and say; it is not a meteorite, that is a rind
> or weathered Earth rock not fusion crust.

Yes there is so much industrial slag about even regular moon meteorites look 
like it but I will keep looking for out of place rocks.  Moon material from the 
Mares is hard to differentiate from earth basalt save for the clasts.  The 
feldspars could come from anywhere in New Hampshire, Vermont-- actually most 
all of New England, so again anyone looking would need a very trained eye.  I 
think the first identified Earthite will be the one that crashes through a roof 
and makes someone take a hard look.

Right now unless it were very very old due to an extremely large orbit that 
took 700-1300 million years to decay-- there are no candidate craters on Earth 
that are in feldspar-rich bedrock that come to mind. 

Actually Nininger(?) or someone--found a limestone object that was reported to 
be a fall and in fact he thought it to be a meteorite but it was so unlike 
anything known it was unable to prove it.  The where-a-bouts of the object is 
unknown. It is listed as a psuedo-meteorite in the Natural History (British) 
Museum's Catalog of meteorites

Q: So, another
> question would be this; if it clearly has a fusion crust
> complete with the gas bubbles would there be a way to prove
> it is in fact a genuine fusion crust???

The short answer: Cosmic ray tracks and enriched tritium from solar wind would 
be proof that the material had been in space. Fusion crust in my book is over 
rated as "proof" owing to the wide occurrence of industrial glass so widely 
spread on Earth AND poorly understood/recognized accurately as everyone claims 
fusion crust when in fact the crust is long gone and they are looking at the 
ablation surface. An ablation surface can look like water or wind-worn surfaces.

You are Welcome, Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Panspermia, Reverse Panspermia & Life In Space

[Mr EMan]

Totally agree with Mark's quote below about Panspermia. As to reverse 
contamination-- studies so far suggest launching and landing temperatures are 
sufficiently low that neither process sterilizes the cargo: Mars to Earth or 
Earth to Mars transport.

Elton
--- On Fri, 6/5/09, Mark Ford  wrote:


<< To be honest this whole Panspermia concept, has become a
bit of a religion in some circles,  how is it more likely that
 Earth was seeded by alien life than that that the Earth started life by
 itself? Earth is perfect for life, all the ingredients are or where  present, 
we haven't seen anywhere else in the universe like earth for long
 enough, so it seems sensible to assume it all started right here... 
 in a galaxy not so very far away..
 
 Mark>>
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Re: [meteorite-list] A question????? another answer

[Mr EMan]

Pete sometime let me tell you about the First Church of the Navelites.. but to 
your question

They would be called meteorites until identified as originating from the 
Earth--then the debate is opened up again.

Recently someone at NASA or in the IAU stated the new definition of meteorite 
includes any rocky object falling onto the surface of any planet should be 
regarded as a meteorite (my translation)

I recently read a calculation of the number of Earth originating rocks gone to 
meteorites on the moon and on Mars and it was a fairly high number within the 
realistic realm of being identified as such.

A further subset of missing nomenclature is what to call returning non tektite 
ejecta that may have orbited a while and get returned much later.  The Reis 
impactor is a candidate for having been able to eject rocks into orbit.  As 
I've mentioned it before, it hurled some multi-ton limestone boulders over 60 
miles up a mountain side in Austria.

A meteorite could not eject material into space from earth but an asteroid 
sized impactor most certainly has in the past.  That is the physics don't 
prohibit it.

Elton
--- On Fri, 6/5/09, Pete shu...@clearwire.net  wrote:

> From: Pete shu...@clearwire.net 
> Subject: [meteorite-list] A question?
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 12:02 AM
> We have the Martian type meteorite,
> and we have the
> Lunar meteorite and last, the asteroid 4Vesta meteorite.
> These we know where they come from.
> 
> Now the question---given enough energy, can a meteorite
> hit earth and eject debris which (maybe) land on the moon
> or Mars? What would we call such a meteorite---Earthoid,
> or maybe Earthite?
> Just contemplating my navel here.
> Pete
> 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Finally, a plausible explanation for Tunguska

[Mr EMan]

snip... "Scientists suppose that the stones used to be a part of the  
navigational system of a spaceship". 

Fracking lunatics!@ Scientist eah?

If they were engineers they would know it is not from the navigation system-- 
it is from the subspace hyperdrive anti-matter pre-mixer..DUH

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Isopropyl concentrations was Question about cutting stones on a small saw

[Mr EMan]

Hey Ed,
 The usefulness as fuel depends on the concentration of water.
Rubbing Alcohol is 70% Isopropyl 30% water. The "fuel line antifreeze"(Heet TM 
etc)is 99%. If you are using it in an alcohol stove you need the Heet vs 
Rubbing alcohol.

Not much choice: either cut in oil or water or alcohol and none are optimal for 
meteorites. IF you cut in rubbing alcohol over time the isopropyl evaporates 
which drives up the percentage of dirty water.

Elton

--- On Thu, 5/21/09, edeck...@triad.rr.com  wrote:  yes, 
steer clear of alcohol as a coolant. 
> Some folks use it all of the time and swear by it - others swear at it.  I 
> wonder though if 70% Isopropyl Alcohol (Rubbing Alcohol) is better than using 
> just distilled water?  I know of someone who was given Rubbing Alcohol to use 
> as fuel in an alcohol lamp.  He could not keep the lamp lit.  So that may be 
> a lot safer than pure alcohol.  Just a thought.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Sterling, help with some calcs please

[Mr EMan]

>From Mr Buttinsky Eman: I am a wee skeptical regarding meteorite fragments 
>from ancient impacts in general and Chixculub specifically.  There is also an 
>H4 fragment recovered in sea floor dredging which was announced as the smoking 
>gun.  Unfortunately I continue to get group postings reliably so again I am 
>out on a limb so I haven't read Keller's latest. But I am looking elsewhere 
>for this report.

Elton

--- On Wed, 5/13/09, E.P. Grondine  wrote:
> 
> Hi Sterling, all - 
> 
> Given Keller's latest KT announcements, could you give us
> some rough numbers on infra-red, blast overpressures, winds,
> and molten rock vapor from the KT impact? Given the
> kt-fossil meteorite, it seems safe to me to infer a comet
> impactor.
> 
> E.P. Grondine
> Man and Impact in the Americas
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Re: [meteorite-list] Tunguska Questions

[Mr EMan]

A couple of points related to the questions posed 

The Ries impactor is believed to have hurled multi-ton limestone sections up 
slope onto the Alps, 100km/60miles away. It was far larger than Tunguska and a 
different scenario all together save for it could have been a dead comet and 
related to the Carbonaceous meteorites.

I believe that Taggish Lake Redeux within a few months found all of this 
carbonaceous meteorite left originally on the surface had turned entirely to 
"mud".

So other than sediments it is perfectly plausible that Tunguska left no macro 
objects that survived long.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] nice"

[Mr EMan]

Ahhh   thanks! Certainly an atypical color combo for a Lunar.  Yes nice cut 
indeed!

Elton

--- On Fri, 5/15/09, habibi abdelaziz  wrote:

> From: habibi abdelaziz 
> 
> is this nwa 4734 the monzoggabro, anyway nice slices and
> nice cut.
> aziz
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Re: [meteorite-list] Nice ???

[Mr EMan]

What is this and is it bigger than a bread box?

If there are any experts or (mind readers for that matter) who've figured this 
one out please interpret "nice" in a petrographical--even dimensional context, 
Thanks.  

Elton
--- On Fri, 5/15/09, Greg Catterton  wrote: Nice

> 
> http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/jedisdiamond/DSCF1731.jpg
> http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/jedisdiamond/DSCF1732.jpg
> http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/jedisdiamond/DSCF1733.jpg
> 
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Re: [meteorite-list] 25 years ago in Memphis

[Mr EMan]

Maryville, TN  L6 fell on 28 Jan 83
That is the one that got me da fever
Elton

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Re: [meteorite-list] Angrite or not?

[Mr EMan]

Well only the Hupes can confirm provinence and I recognize the seller as a 
meteorite seller but no idea whom now might be buying meteorites on eBay and 
turning right around and selling them on eBay.  One thing probable the write-up 
was lifted from past Hupe auctions.

Elton
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[meteorite-list] Scored a Polarizing scope-- need Manual: MRH3-POL LOMO

[Mr EMan]

After 6+ years of looking for an affordable polarizing scope, I found a 
MRH3-POL LOMO Polarizing scope complete with external lamp power supply. I 
found it at non-profit thrift store in Kentucky.  I paid the full asking 
price... $20.

On the LOMO US websites they have no link and only who knows what on their 
Russian Language site.

I can't find a manual for it PDF on line or otherwise.  Does anyone have a .pdf 
for the MRH3 or 4 POL they could send me or send me to the link?  Or from a 
similar scope?

Today Google wasn't my friend.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] TAMEDAGHT PHENOMENA - more enigmatical examples

[Mr EMan]

Certainly bizarre.  Have you ruled out natural asphalt aka pitch? In pure form 
under desert sun it would be near liquid and when cold it shows a glass-like 
fracture. For it to be terrestrially formed as a conglomerate it seems 
certainly to have been reworked and consolidated from an original strown field.

Elton


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Re: [meteorite-list] Livingston mystery rock might be from space

[Mr EMan]

Looks promising...anyone know how this stacks up with the fireball sighting 
just announced?

Elton


--- On Wed, 4/22/09, Mike Groetz  wrote:

> From: Mike Groetz 
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Livingston mystery rock might be from space
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 4:01 PM
> http://www.mercedsunstar.com/livingston/story/804260.html
> 
> Livingston mystery rock might be from space
> 
> By SCOTT JASON
> sja...@mercedsun-star.com 
> 
> LIVINGSTON -- It's clear a 170-pound black boulder
> doesn't belong embedded half-a-foot into a sandy loam
> field north of Livingston.
> 
> The puzzle is whether it fell from the sky -- a meteorite
> on a collision course with Earth. Or if the giant rock was
> abandoned 10 feet off the road for some unknown reason,
> coincidentally about the same time residents saw a fireball
> burning in the Central Valley sky.
> 
> The missing piece of information should be known in a few
> weeks, if not sooner. 
> 
>  Jerry McAlwee, the self-described rock hound who found the
> boulder with a friend, hopes it's an extraterrestrial
> discovery. And even if it's not, the suspense is worth
> the time and effort.
> 
> "It's kind of a CSI-type thing," he said
> Tuesday. "If it's not a meteorite, I don't know
> how to explain some of the things (about the rock)."
> 
> For example, magnets stick to most of its surface. Part of
> its crust is melted and smooth. The grass is stained around
> it.
> 
> McAlwee, 40, lives in Sunnyvale but helps his girlfriend
> maintain five acres and a house about 100 yards from Highway
> 99. Along with a friend, Tim Mihalko, he was extending a
> fence on Sycamore Street.
> 
> Surrounded by grass, Mihalko thought he'd stumbled on a
> tree stump. As he made a closer pass with a ride-on mower,
> he realized it was a rock about the size of a microwave.
> 
> He called over McAlwee, who wasn't sure what to make of
> it. The last time he had mowed the field was early December.
> The object wasn't there. It would've mangled his
> mower blade.
> 
> After pondering a few theories, he wondered if it could be
> the remnants of the fireball seen in the night sky Dec. 27.
> 
> Several people in the state saw a tomato-green fireball
> flying northwest through the Central Valley. It sparked
> interest among meteorite hunters. A few are said to have
> spent some time scouring the area.
> 
> Meteorite researchers put the landing, if there was one,
> somewhere near the north Merced County line. No one has yet
> announced that they've discovered any pieces of it.
> 
> It remains to be seen whether this is from that event or
> some coincidence.
> 
> McAlwee sent a walnut-size sample to Eric Whichman, a San
> Diego resident who runs www.meteoritesusa.com.
> 
> Whichman said he will run preliminary tests to see if it
> contains nickel and iron, two minerals found in chondrites,
> the most-common kind of meteorite.
> 
> He'll also look for round mineral patches called
> chondrules. If both those pan out, he'll ship the sample
> to a lab for tests.
> 
> "We're taking a wait-and-see attitude,"
> Whichman said.
> 
> Based on the photos alone, he's skeptical that it's
> a meteorite. If he was forced to make an immediate judgment,
> he'd say it's not a space rock. 
> 
> If it turns out to be a meteorite, he said he'll visit
> Merced as soon as he can. 
> 
> If it's not, he still wants to spend some time looking
> for any meteorite left by the fireball.
> 
> Regardless of how this mystery turns out, McAlwee looks at
> discovering the rock with a philosophical bent.
> 
> "Everyone lives between their alarm clock and their
> next meal," he said. "It broadens your idea of
> what might be the context of reality."
> 
> In other words, between a rock and a starred space.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
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Re: [meteorite-list] GPS

[Mr EMan]

All the Rino units save for the 110(which still has the world wide city 
database) have base street maps installed and the 130 and 130/530 have both 
altimeters and have a GPS based compass. One more reason I like Rino is many 
first responders have then and one never knows when that would assist in rescue.

I believe the Rino130 also has a built-in thermometer and I do like having the 
weather radio channels built in as it is one less object to carry. Ditto for 
the GPS radio. Cell phones are good but there are a lot of remote areas which 
lack coverage--nuff said

 Once I settled on my package I stopped keeping up with GPS trends so beyond 
what I know about my preferences I am not consumer currant. Most GPS altimeter 
capabilities are based on 3D GPS. There may be some electronic altimeter units 
like found in the wristwatch models. Maybe someone else knows. I should think 
most GPS's with altimeter and topo maps also allow you to create a altitude 
profile routes. 

While very light and compact, I found the original stand alone yellow eTrex 
unit(under $100) a bit "under featured" for my needs but the blue eTrex( I 
forget the model name) improved model is a Rino 120 or 130 without the radio as 
I understand and has a worldwide database of cities making route planing easier.

As for power consumption, one never knows if their unit really meets specs so I 
just keep an ongoing supply depot of them in my truck box. I've never run the 
batteries down on any one day so can speak to operating times.

Most all newer units allow you to import and export routes and waypoints so if 
you are hunting an area with a buddy on alternate weekends you can email each 
other your tracks/waypoints.

Whichever unit you decide on, you want to pay attention to the chipset/ channel 
capability and power consumption specs.  The 12 channel receivers are fast on 
getting a fix when first powered up.  The older 2 and 4 channel recievers can 
take several minutes depending on how far you've traveled since last powerdown. 
Plus the more recent units with the  "GPS on a chip" innards allow much longer 
operating times.

As far as what I recall you've either got Magellan or Garmin basically for full 
features vs cost and I am not sure their topo map data bases are 
interchangeable. I know Garmin also sells blue(water/fishing) charts.

I dislike TomTom and most Garmin vehicle navagation systems for a sundry of 
reasons because you have to activate and reactivate the maps everytime you 
reinstall them, BTW.

I know some members here use hand-helds with larger and/or color displays and 
would be nice to know their preferences. 

Elton

--- On Sun, 4/19/09, Galactic Stone & Ironworks  wrote:

> From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks 
 
> When I said "city driving", I should have been more specific.  I don't
> need turn by turn routing and voice prompts.  I just need
> something to help me find my way back to the nearest highway if I get
> lost down a dirt road or a BLM area.  And I won't be doing any
> polling or linking up to other GPS units in the field - just something stand 
> alone for general purpose hiking/boondocking and also to document any 
> meteorite finds in-situ.  I prefer a unit with a compass and altimeter built 
> in.
 
> Does that change any recommendations?
> 
> Also, I won't need more than 10 hours or so battery
> life between charges.  Maybe 12 tops.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> MikeG
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Re: [meteorite-list] GPS

[Mr EMan]

Well  Mike, I am a fan of the Garmin Rino series 110/120/130 and 530/530(color) 
They are water proof, 5-14 mile range dual GPS and FRS/GRS radio units which 
can be slaved to a laptop GPS program and powered from either internal 
batteries or off vehicle power. You can use several map sources including 
Garmin's map set made for city/vehicle navigation. 

You can load topos on all three and they have a built in GRS/FRS radio which 
allows search party members to "poll" other members and automatically import 
their locations dynamically into your map screen.  The Rino 110 is a cheapest 
version which still polls but is a little under size memory capacity for topo 
maps but is still good for axillary members of your search party especially if 
they are, for instance, driving your vehicle to the far end of the search area 
for later link up. All units have only built-in memory--a necessity in keeping 
them water proof and none hold all the maps I'd like to have available at one 
time but you can swap them out from a Windows laptop or Mac via Parallels Widow 
emulator.

I have 4 units: a 130 with map capability plus weather radio, a 120 with map 
cap, two bright yellow 110 units plus 4 regular FRS radios so everyone in camp 
can keep in touch.

Most any time on eBay the 530/520c new are $300-400, the 130 and 120 are under 
$200 and the 110 is usually $80 or less occassionally $50! But as a dual unit 
for city navigation I don't think they are the best owing to lack of voice and 
small screen. This makes them affordable for the whole search party and 
preserves the polling feature which allows everyone to keep up with the 
location of everyone else. 

One caveat is the radio side can be an issue when traveling to certain foreign 
locations where personal two way radios are restricted.

I am sure there are oodles of other opinions but this seems to work for me and 
my situations.

Elton
--- On Sun, 4/19/09, Galactic Stone & Ironworks  wrote:
> 
> What is a good dual-purpose GPS?
> 
> I want something that has loaded Topo maps for
> prospecting/hiking use and can be used handheld.  I'd also like the ability 
> to dash mount the same GPS and use it for city driving.  Is there a good GPS 
> like this that doesn't cost more than $200 or so, maybe $250?
> 
> I'd like to keep things simple when out boondocking and
> hunting for meteorites - so one GPS is better than two, not to mention
> less batteries and chargers.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> MikeG
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Re: [meteorite-list] Wanted : Peeskill...was Micros of the following meteorites

[Mr EMan]

---Galactic Stone & Ironworks  wrote:
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Re: [meteorite-list] Questions about accretion. Part 2 UAE, Shock wave distribution proto Solar System

[Mr EMan]

There was a question regarding the sorting of elements and why for example 
common chondrules had more iron than did Carbonaceous chondrites. The reason 
for the difference also includes why we use isotope ratios to determine from 
where a parent body probably formed within the solar system.

Sometime in early solar system development there was a sustained and or 
repeated strong solar wind or mini-nova, or perhaps our own ancestral sun's 
predecessor nearby supernova, or other cosmic water hose(?) that sweep through 
the swirling matter in the proto-solar disk, significantly sorting it out by 
elemental and molecular weights. Heavier particles weren't pushed out as far as 
the lighter ones.  Thus we have heavy to light sorting of particles/ elements/ 
molecules/ solids/ gases etc from the inner rocky planets at one end to the 
giant gas planets beyond the asteroid belt and all way out to the Ort cloud.  
The sorting was not perfect but did rearrange the mixtures of elements locally. 
 Conservation of angular momentum must have broken down at some level such that 
the Oort Cloud is theorized to be more or less spherical while planetary masses 
tend to lie close to the plane of the ecliptic. (This glitch influences 
measured elemental ratios of our known
 solar system and just mentioned for those paying attention)

Thus before significant planetary accretion(first 3-5 million years?) we 
experienced a cycle of sorting that left zones of like particles to be 
accreted.  This sorting also locally affected the ratios of the individual 
isotopes of elements from a concept we know as the Universal Abundance of the 
Elements.(UAE)  (The UAE says that based on human measurements the mass of the 
universe is concentrated in the first 20 elements which incidentally were the 
main elements associated with living processes). 

 When the local Solar system abundance of the UAE was disturbed, distribution 
of isotope ratios were also skewed in the local solar system.  Ergo oxygen 
isotope studies in meteorites tell us what relative distance/radius a parent 
body formed away from the sun. 

On Earth the ratios for Oxygen: O18(Tritium)-O17(Deuterium)-O16 is something 
like 18O / 16O = 2005.20 ±0.43 ppm (a ratio of 1 part per approximately 498.7 
parts) 17O / 16O = 379.9 ±1.6 ppm (a ratio of 1 part per approximately 2632 
parts)  This ratio signature is specific to an origin in the Earth Moon 
distance and there is a different one for Mars, the asteroid belt, Jupiter, 
Saturn and carbonaceous chondrites etc.  Complications to this gradient include 
the amount of oxygen returned to earth via comets in what was known as the 
great bombardment-- back skewing the post shockwave sorting in the early sweep 
out.  

Ok we are at the end almost.  O18 being two neutrons heavier takes more latent 
energy to vaporize and results in a slight concentration of its ratio in 
seawater depending on how much extra energy is around.  The colder the climate 
the more O18 gets left behind in seawater and available for building carbonate 
seashells.  The higher the temperature trends the more gets evaporated and a 
portion of that gets preserved in paleo-ice cores.  Thus ratios differ in 
sequestrations such as in coral reefs and sea shells. This characteristic makes 
O18 content in ancient ice cores and fossil shells equivalent to a paleo 
thermometer.

Long way around answering why some classes of meteorites have more iron in them 
than others.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Questions about accretion. Part 1 Aluminium 26, and Asteroid ages

[Mr EMan]

My ISP continues to lose much of my email else send them in huge batches.

Some additional points to what was discussed thus far: 

Iron migration to the core of a heat building/holding sized body is a buoyancy 
issue and gravity driven so long as the iron remains molten.  

Accretion probably had an electrostatic component which may be an anti 
accretion force, there was some covalent molecular bonding but as strange as it 
seems the primary attractant has to be gravity  yes molecule to molecule-- 
chondrule to chondrule.  Chondrule formation is a whole other treatise not 
covered here.

After accretion:
Aluminum 26 is a radioactive isotope with half life of .73(?)million years 
which decays to Magnesium 26. The bulk occurrence of Al26 in the early solar 
system had to be ejected from a solar fission furnace. When we find magnesium 
within a crystal matrix where aluminum should be, we know it started out as an 
atom of Al26. The heat of that Al26 decay is widely believed to be the driver 
for differentiating in asteroids accreted from chondrules and non-chondrule 
particles. Except for the planetary meteorites and Impact Melt Breccias(IMB) 
all original common chondrite to achondrite parent body conversion appears to 
have taken place in the approximate 15-20 Million years starting with the 
formation of the current solar system. The first 5 million being the time when 
accretion was ongoing. 

There are two theories of H Chondrite parent body formation. Both include 
zones.  One is that there were multiple H class parents of different sizes 
yielding different petrological classes.  The other is that there were but one 
or very few H parent bodies and what started off as H3 and melted from  heat 
distributed inside to out. As the heat source ran lower and lower, the 
chondrite "cake" was left partially uncooked resulting in an "onion layer" set 
of zones with H3 on the surface and H7/achondrite toward the center(yep with an 
iron core)

Either way, there is a successive fall off of formation/cool-off ages in H 
Class formation ages and that is to be expected. H3 chondrite zones/bodies ran 
out of heat earlier than H5s so fewer chondrules were melted (thermally 
metamorphosed). As a class, H3s zones congealed a bit earlier than the other 
H4,H5,H6 zones. Because Al26 was more or less uniformly distributed, we may 
infer that H3s either came from smaller bodies which were barely large enough 
to hold some heat but not large enough to let the full melting cycle run to 
achondrite sizes. And/or They come from the crustal regions of a substantial 
sized asteroid.  Either way they were liberated in a major disruption that 
exposed them down to their cores.  From Widmanstatten studies we know that the 
cooling at the metallic core was a very slow rate of a a couple to a few tens 
of degrees per million years. I am sure somewhere someone has cross referenced 
these rates to improve on what we believe we
 know about asteroid formation ages. 

For more reading:

(See the last chart on the above link for asteroid/meteoroid formation ages)


Elton

Note that Formation age, Cosmic Ray Exposure age(CRE) are not the same. The 
formation age of meteoric material may or not be the same age as when it was 
liberated/ejected from the parent body depending if the shock was sufficient to 
reset the atomic clocks.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Suffolk man says he saw meteor hit

[Mr EMan]

Not adding an opinion but just about observation consistency.
Four points and a question:
1. Once again we are dealing with a reporter--which is a class of individuals 
that consistently scramble eye-witness interviews.
  
2. His location was very close to the Doppler echo end track.

3. Owing to how a sonic boom propagates to the side and rear of the hypersonic 
missile, if you are near dead front of objects path you tend to only get echoes 
from gound reflections unlsee the object is still super sonic when passing your 
location --ask any one that has been shot at by a super sonic round.  One may 
hear the bullet thump but don't hear the the sonic signature that nearby folks 
usually do.  Thus the old adage about not hearing the shot that hits you. 

4.  Whistling, roaring, buzzing, or wap-wap sounds--( unlike those of a sonic 
boom, bolide, or explosion,) are often reported by observers near where a 
meteorite drops.

How fortunate the tidewaters are warming up and we have some scuba divers on 
the list.

Q: Now this was a retrograde meteor correct?  Retrograde is contra earth's 
rotation and prograde is with the direction of rotation?  Simple I know but I 
am in an argument with myself and need a referee.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Banishment -OT was 2 arrested update

[Mr EMan]

--- On Thu, 4/2/09, meteorh...@aol.com  wrote:
some of this story smells a little fishy... snip.. it was reported that 
Honorable(sic) Judge Jerry M. Daniel told the  guys  "to get out of dodge.“ 

Georgia and Alabama are the only US states left where the common law of 
banishment is still legal statewide.  Dating back to King George III, thus 
predating both the US and Georgia State constitutions it has been upheld under 
common law by the US Supreme Court although certain limits are pending review.  

It is an almost obligatory addition to any sentence in Georgia where the 
defendants are not local residents and the Judge needs re-election publicity.

In Georgia, a county judge is an officer of the State court system but can't 
banish you into the rest of the state but, can banish you from the whole state 
IIRC.  Hard to enforce outside the judge's own county, and under one supreme 
court ruling it can't extend beyond the original sentence of the underlying 
sentence, it is theoretically possible to land one back in jail if caught again 
in the state and you are "notorious" in that banishment is not kept in 
state-wide records.  The new arresting officer would have to be smart enough to 
call the previous judge--and fortunately intelligence is not a requirement for 
their employment.

I know one county in Georgia where there is the Sheriff, his wife is the 
Jailer, his son is THE full time Deputy( who in Barney Fife tradition 
frequently, isn't allowed to carry a loaded gun and who's IQ is just high 
enough to not be classified as a rock).  The sheriff's daughter is the 9-1-1 
Director/dispatcher. The judge is a cousin or uncle??? The cousin mayor in the 
county seat also owns the feed store, cotton gin, gun shop,ambulance service, 
towing contract and jail food services contract.  As you can imagine NO ONE in 
20 years as ever been found not guilty. No one married into the family can get 
a divorce unless the family member wants it. This is not illegal per se for 
inbred nepotism to such a degree. In a state where it is legal to marry your 
cousin, this should surprise no outsider. Unfortunately to this day a common 
offense meriting summary execution is DWB-Driving while black or DWM --while 
Mexican.  I wouldn't be surprised if DWY wasn't a
 common offense--you know  Driving while Yankee.

Elton

  

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[meteorite-list] Daytime fireball Video vic Marseille, France

[Mr EMan]

Forwarded links from the Meteorobs list  Looks like a "fishy squishie" The 
degree symbol appears to be part of the the substitution of "?" in the 
coordinates but I can't easily jam it into any of my map programs.
43*15'57.11 N 
05*23'25.46 E

.amateur astronomer located in Marseille, France captured this with
UFO-capture software :

Coordinates : 43?15?57.11? N 5?23?25.46? E
26 meters above sea level
Cam AZ :  244?
Approx  elevation angle : 55?

Compound picture & video :






Unfortunately the date was not given. It was sometime in the past I predict 
--never can tell with UFO software.

Elton

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[meteorite-list] Steve of Chicago final message

[Mr EMan]

This is not the post anyone is expecting and it addresses everyone so please 
read to the end.  As I am the originator of the thread this is for all: from 
the pacifist who were not privy to Steve's of Illinois complete meteorite 
dealings and for the others that experienced them personally: those who may 
have purchased/received from him and got what was promised/paid for but not 
received from him/paid for but didn't get what they paid from him, etc.--for 
all those that wanted to get along rather than deal with the gritty ethics, for 
those who so passionately defended everyone's right regardless of any other 
factor, for those kind souls who made the case again and again for moderation 
by all sides, for those who were aggravated beyond speakable words at certain 
acts and, those that found the situation inconsistent with a hobby based on 
living by one's word... I have an announcement from Steve in Illinois for 
everyone and I somberly offer it.

Steve has sent word that he is gone from the list-unsubscribed as of this 
evening and out of the meteorite business. He prefers to neither send or 
receive anymore emails. He says he is keeping his word to leave.  His web-page 
no longer list meteorites for sale.  For anyone to try to erase all the 
evidence of their history on the internet is futile as that history remains in 
cached pages from here to China. Steve's business or non business will be 
between him and the legal world and further discussion about him on this list 
is moot. Ebay sales remain "caveat emptor".

I am told that those who met Steve in person found in him possessing an off 
beat charisma, not unlikeable but always within a sympathy inducing presence. 
In person; a gentle giant. Steve was possessed by a drive that always seemed to 
steer him in a way opposite from what he wanted--from what we wanted too.  I 
admire Steve's meteorite display cabinet in his home, how each specimen was 
treated with admiration and suitable display setting and that his passion was 
borne out in development of a great and sometime humorous web presence. His 
meteorites were special and not just tossed into dark drawer. For Steve's pain 
I truly feel for his loss. He and I share more in common than most know. 

As much as I empathize with his personal struggles there was the dilemma I felt 
in the sense of being wronged by the darker side Steve allowed into his life 
and those that had their collections cheated.  It is not easy to adjudicate 
between the two options of Steve being gone versus being here and dealing 
unethically with his peers; a problem he was never able to reconcile.  While it 
seemed a case of resign or face an eventual ouster because of the path he 
walked, Steve did an honorable thing and I know it was done in great personal 
pain.  I wish there had been an effective workable common ground between the 
two options but twas not to be. In honor to Art he has been one of the fairest 
souls I have ever known and possessing the patience of the Job of old testament 
lore. 

What remains that I need to reiterate is that leaving the list when the heat is 
up has been a ploy in the past. I'll have to cautiously accept that Steve's 
announcement is true and "final" for a time being. This doesn't mean any legal 
woes are over but they are no longer on topic here. As far as I believe, this 
is fair and beneficial for all involved.

In that he has resigned, I believe this merits being the final list post on the 
episode-- no matter what your feelings or passions please respect Steve's and 
my own wishes.

Respectfully,
Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Re: Wire Fraud and Steve Arnold of Chicago...was nwa 1794

[Mr EMan]

Gosh Greg..Thank you for your opinion,..again,again.again

You know I sent you a very lengthy private letter apologizing for the points of 
that post which may have suggested or may have been interpreted to suggest that 
I was attacking you. Now you show me that you can't let that go either.  I 
seems that it is either YOUR way or no way so why don't you run for an IMCA 
office..OR better still run down a member of the secret meteorite possee and 
ask to be deputized.

In my IMCA post which you have partially POSTED to the METEORITE CENTRAL LIST, 
I made the point that in the whole scheme of things, refusing to let go of this 
specific auction(-- which was purchased by an expert already taking steps so 
that the seller will be legally reviewed) was a dangerous place to go when it 
was pursued with the radicalismn of a cyber-terrorist.  That auction is not 
available to a "novice" buyer and you've missed the point. I followed 
established avenues for remedy. Please everyone note, I didn't call the 
President and CEO of eBay at his home at dinnertime to personally complain 
about a $15 specimen of dubious origin. Nor did I get a nasty gram from eBay 
telling me to cease and desist or face account loss or more. 

Unlike YOU, I did not post my feedback to Steve's Prank as a member of the 
IMCA.  I posted as a member of the meteorite central list. So we'll have to 
disagree on each others actions and just move along. Big Steve put this "Prank" 
on the list and made it a fair topic for response. Steve wanted "humor" and I 
think he exceeded expectations!!!

 Greg review your rule books and STOP posting IMCA business on the Meteorite 
Central list,please. Someone might have to report your actions and Steve 
wouldn't be the only one disinvited from an association.  Knowing you will not 
let this go, when you do bring it up elsewhere keep my quotes in context and 
don't distort them like you've done here. I perfected Trollism before you were 
born and I am as good as anyone at detecting deliberate distortions especially 
when they are of my own positions.

I am not the one who broke laws and as a citizen, it is morally acceptable to 
report illegal trade practices in China or Chicago.  I am sure if Steve has 
read all this, he is relishing the attention and he is laughing his pants 
off--(well doing something in his pants anyway) and we are all having fun even 
if not the fun he intended.

I hope you now find a reason to take any further attacks off both lists better 
yet take a chill and get on with life to handle another day. There are 12 step 
programs for those that are unable to see humor where humor is warranted.  Bad 
Boys or Bad Boz is a classic melody of satire I'm sure you've heard the song.

Elton

--- On Wed, 4/1/09, Greg Catterton  wrote:

> From: Greg Catterton 
> Subject: Re: [IMCA] Re:  Wire Fraud and Steve Arnold of Chicago...was nwa 1794
> To: "Mr EMan" 
> Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, i...@imcamail.de
> Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 5:08 PM
> your comments made toward/about me over my actions with the
> ebay scam seller ryderdude:
>  
> "So a meteorwrong gets sold to a novice that
> didn't know "sh*t from shinola" no big deal in
> the whole scheme of things.  BUT if IMCA gets a bad
> reputation by association then the entire war is lost and
> how much was it worth to try to get even with a single
> seller?
> Elton"
>  
> It is my opinion that your recent post is reflective of the
> IMCA in a far worse way then my polite and good intentioned
> actions to stop a fraudulent seller of fake meteorites on
> ebay.
>  
> Comments such as "Bad Boy Bad Boy...  whatcha gonna
> do...Whacha gonna do when they come for you...Bad Boy Bad
> Boy... " are very childish, regardless of the issues.
> I am not getting into this issue with Steves
> "joke" as I want no involvement, but I do feel the
> need to reply to your comments as they are way off base and
> DO reflect badly on you and as a member of the IMCA, it
> reflects badly on them...
>  
> You clearly state that "So a meteorwrong gets sold to
> a novice that didn't know "sh*t from shinola"
> no big deal in the whole scheme of things." and that is
> totally false.
> It is a vey big deal as we were all novices at one point
> and the novices are the future of this hobby... to allow
> them to be frauded will only hurt us in the long run.
>  
> My attempts to get ebay to stop ryderdude760 was NEVER
> about "getting even" it was to protect uninformed
> buyers (novices as you call them) who could possibly be
> turned off of this great hobby due to getting scammed with
> fake material when ebay knows about his fraud and has been
> provided p

Re: [meteorite-list] Wire Fraud and Steve Arnold of Chicago...was nwa 1794

[Mr EMan]

Someone please forward this to Steve as he has me filtered. I wouldn't want him 
to get blind-sided or miss out on all of the white knuckled anticipation and 
glee some of us will be having today as a result of his "April Fools Prank". 

I am presently in the process of reporting criminal activity by Steve Arnold 
with both the US Attorney in Chicago via the Secret Service and the Illinois 
State Attorney general via the Office of Consumer Protection. An April Fools 
"Prank" that is REAL is the best prank of all! LMAO

What Steve failed to realize in his "prank": was that 1) while so typical for 
him, the ultimate in poor taste but better yet  2) his fake "going out of 
business sale" was a violation of Illinois consumer protection law and also US 
wire fraud statutes. By his own admission, Steve knowingly used premeditated, 
false incentives, to promote commercial sales across state lines via a wire. He 
also conducted a sale under the guise of "going out of business" and will will 
likely be forced to complete that sale within 30 days limit and/or cease 
business in that field as I understand the law.--plus penalties, fines, and 
costs-- he knows the routine.

People that bought from him in good faith, had a reasonable expectation that 
Steve was going "out of business" and that his inventory would no longer be 
available nor would he be competing with other dealers.  These are published 
statements in public.  There is also some evidence that Steve has been using 
unemployment payments to purchase inventory for an unlicensed and illegal 
enterprise which makes him ineligible for those payments and liable for 
repayment.  You have no idea how much satisfaction I am getting from knowing 
that his own arrogant behavior has done himself in and that his payback will 
hit him in a most appropriate way. 

Steve, as I write, I am waiting on a call back from the Illinois Attorney 
General's Office to file complaints on the fake GOB sale. Tomorrow, I, am 
meeting with a US Secret Service Agent (who handles wire fraud and not the 
FBI--go figure) to make the case for wire fraud. Don't worry you'll probably 
only get probation or diversion for a first offense--but wait this isn't a 
first offense is it? 

Oh Dratt--since you used a computer in the fraud they can make you never ever 
use a the internet again..depending on the victim impact statements made--if it 
goes to trial and not bargained out. So we'll soon be assured that it is your 
VERY last post!  Sounds like a win/win!!!

As to the REAL Steve Arnold of Chicago(Technically Elgin but what's a little 
exageration from sSteve-- I've long considered behaviors like this to be those 
of a slimy, lying, lowlife parasite who'll always be one--but that is my 
personal opinion and while that isn't illegal in itself, it has lead him once 
again into legal problems. (Remember a certain FAKE corporation?)

Steve's selling meteorites to buy a casket for his mother-in-law was pretty 
slimy especially when he went to visit her on vacation 6 months later(you 
know--one of the vacations he reported hourly to the list about?)...but this is 
even slimier.  For a person that "loves the hobby and all the friends there 
(sic)" he sure does slime them with regularity.

Bad Boy Bad Boy...  whatcha gonna do...Whacha gonna do when they come for 
you...Bad Boy Bad Boy... (he'll probably make the case for an insanity defense 
and walk free).

Elton

PS: Be ready for the Steve Arnold: Need to Raise Bail! Meteorite Sale--IF he 
has any to sell as they are evidence in his illegal activities and should be 
seized for 18 months till his state trial comes up.

--- On Wed, 4/1/09, Sean T. Murray  wrote:

> Ok - it's official - that is the worst April Fool's
> hoax.  Ever. Next year you should claim to have an incurable disease,
> and then tell us it's not true.  It'll be a gas.
> 
> Unless... maybe Steve #1's saying that last week was a
> prequel to April fools, IS his april fools joke...Only time
> will tell.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "steve arnold"
 
> Hi again list,and no ad.I see there is only 398 grams of
> NWA 1794.But I see there is also more material out there.Did
> they find more later,and if they did,what is the latest
> TKW?Also last week was a prequel to this day.APRIL
> FOOL'S DAY!!I am going no where.Have a great day and
> keep finding our passion.
> 
> Steve R.Arnold No#1!,Chicago!
> 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Strange surface feature

[Mr EMan]

I'd ask for my money back!!! lol  You've ruled out mica and that is good. If it 
were mica it is immediate proof that this isn't a meteorite. Google up: 
"specular hematite". See where that takes you.

Had it been magnetic and not so shinny, I would have considered this a possible 
separation along kamacite and taenite lamallae/bands. But it isn't and that 
loops back to hematite.

Since this is a tumbled weathered surface, true clues are obscure. Photos are 
exceedingly difficult to make an ID by unless the specimen has distinctive 
features which are unique to that mineral species. Specular hematite is sort'a 
one of those that is distinctive.

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Odd meteorite.

[Mr EMan]

Yes actually but I'll let you decide when and where to announce it if we are 
right.
Elton


--- On Thu, 3/26/09, Meteorites USA  wrote:

> From: Meteorites USA 
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Odd meteorite.
> To: "meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com" 
> 
> Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 2:05 PM
> Anyone have a clue?
> http://www.meteoritesusa.com/odd-meteorite.htm
> 
> Photos, links and articles on other meteorites similar to
> this would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Specifically I'm looking for info on SPECIMEN #UNWA001
> 
> You can reach me at: 904-236-5394 or contact via email...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- Regards,
> Eric Wichman
> Meteorites USA
> http://www.meteoritesusa.com
> 904-236-5394
> 
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Re: [meteorite-list] One of the best of the 2008 TC3 articles

[Mr EMan]

Hello Larry,  I was the one that put "dust bunnies" in the discussion mix 
whilst discussion space weathering color changes to meteoroids.  

I was using it generically and did not limit it to particles which were neutral 
in charge and gravitationaly emplaced. I was thinking in terms that there are 
particles that are magnetic/polarized/ionized and are buzzing about the 
asteroid on or near the surface.  I am comfortable that TC3 was not likely a 
major dust collector.

We are in further agreement that the quality of the spectral measurements have 
yet to be explained/validated publicly.  Given "chondridic pallesite" 
proclaimations by novice but "credentialed" researchers in the past I'd like to 
know that more than a few novice eyes were looking over the researchers work.

Someone asked earlier about nanodiamond formation re: Carbonaceous Chondrites.  
I wanted to point out for listeners that Urelites and some CCs already contain 
nanodiamonds and impact is not necessary for nanodiamond to be found on the 
terrain.

Elton


--- On Wed, 3/25/09, lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu  wrote:

> From: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] One of the best of the 2008 TC3 articles
> To: cyna...@charter.net
> Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 7:24 PM
> Hi everone:
> 
> As someone who has studied asteroids, this is great news.
> 
> Only two comments:
> 
> 1. I am a little concerned with the classification of the
> "asteroid" as F. The spectral range is not perfect and I wonder what the 
> uncertainty of the spectrum is (might be very poor quality at the longer 
> wavelengths).

> 2. I do not think that 2008 TC 3 was "dusty." It
> was tumbling in space and spinning once ever 50 to 100 seconds. An object 
> this size is not going to have a dusty surface!
> 
> my two cents
> 
> Larry

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Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crusted "Meteoroids"

[Mr EMan]

A Caveat is we don't know how many are captured to finally disintegrate, how 
many are consumed by the sun, and how many are slung from the solar system via 
gravity assist.  

On the other hand...18,379,846.7 Angels can dance on the head of a pin but not 
all at once.  This represents the erosion of the pin head to zero mass assuming 
an ablation of 6,867,891 atoms per step starting with an iron pin of .2 grams.  
Ok the real point is I doubt there is enough data to even estimate but dang 
sure sounds good.

I see from the trends of the past few weeks that "fusion crust" remain one of 
the most mistaken concepts in our hobby so time for another treatise on fusion 
crust. But not now...

Elton




--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Meteorites USA  wrote:

> From: Meteorites USA 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crusted "Meteoroids"
> To: "meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com" 
> 
> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 1:52 PM
> Anyone remember this one? ;)
> 
> THE GREAT DAYLIGHT FIREBALL OF 1972
> 
> This grazing of our atmosphere would cause fusion crust.
> This means that the Great Fireball is a meteoroid with
> fusion crust.
> 
> Over Jackson Wyoming:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5EztnIdHc
> Over Canada: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaxagBP0IoY
> http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090302.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Daylight_1972_Fireball
> Earth Grazing Asteroids (PDF):
> http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc1994/pdf/1142.pdf
> 
> Fusion Crusted Meteoroids.
> 
> The video shows a great example of it and science knows
> that this happens. How often it happens and how many are
> there is the question? If this happens once every 10,000
> years (hypothetical) then that would mean there may be
> hundreds of thousands if not millions of them out there.
> 
> ---
> 1 Every 10,000 years
> 100 Every 1 Million years
> 1000 Every 10 Million Years
> 10,000 Every 1 Hundred Million Years
> 100,000 Every 1 Billion Years
> ---
> 
> That's if you count just Earth. There are 7 other
> planets out there not counting Pluto. Keeping in  mind the
> likelyhood of a meteoroid crossing the orbit of a planet at
> a shallow enough angle, are Neptune's, Uranus' and
> Saturn's, Jupiter's, Mars', Venus', and
> Mercury's atomospheres thick enough to bounce a
> meteoroid off of and create fusion crust? And if so could we
> safely say that there's hundreds of thousands if not
> millions of fusion crusted meteoroids and asteroids out
> there floating around? I would venture to "guess"
> that it might happen a bit more than once every 10,000
> years. The odds are good that it happens far more often.
> Think about it for a second. What's the likelyhood that
> it would be caught on tape if it happened only once every
> ten thousand years? We see daylight fireballs many times per
> year, how many of those are Earth-Grazing meteoroids or
> asteroids and never burn up completely?
> 
> Can we agree that 70% of the meteorites that actually
> strike Earth land in the oceans since water covers 70% of
> the planet. Furthermore, since we only occupy a small
> percentage of available land mass then that leaves a HUGE
> amount of land that is either uninhabited or inhabited by
> native peoples that have no contact with the outside world.
> Meaning that any meteor fireball that passes over or impacts
> in these areas are NOT ever reported. I know we can make
> educated guesses about how many times this might happen
> based on observations from many points on our planet that we
> actually occupy.
> 
> Isn't there hard data out there on these types of
> actual Earth-Grazing meteoroids and asteroids? The ones that
> actually enter our atmosphere and then leave to go flying
> back out into our solar system. Based on that data
> couldn't you make "an educated guess"?
> Can't we take data from these events and figure the time
> between them and estimate a number, then divide that number
> into say 4.5 billion years? (If you figure the Earth and
> solar system is that old, which by the way is a guess too,
> albeit an educated one) I'm sure there will be people to
> argue this point to the end of time.
> 
> Still think there aren't many fusion crusted meteoroids
> out there?
> 
> 
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[meteorite-list] How The Earth Was Made:The Great Lakes--Shattercone?

[Mr EMan]

Nice series but they take a few minor liberties with accuracy to explain some 
things. Towards the last 20 minutes when the tall, white-haired older scientist 
starts talking about the depth of Lake Superior...Well right around the time he 
is going to take a submersible down to the floor some 13,000 ft below he shows 
a reddish rock the narrator says are striations due to glacial action but the 
glimpse I got sure looked like a shatter cone. So be on the look out and let me 
know your opinion.

Not telling the whole ending but research turned up a failed rift zone in Lake 
Superior that exposes a deep basalt chimney.  This may be the source for basalt 
meteor-wrongs coming out of Michigan which arises on the list every few years.

They did not allude to any impact related melting when the glacial lakes 
breached dumping several million cubic ft of water and so scoured out channels 
in a matter of hours.

Elton

PS: I've had extensive email server issues and am not receiving much of 
anything off-list or on  I did check the archives and  what I might have been 
inclined to say has already been said so just--God Speed
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Re: [meteorite-list] STONE Artificial Meteorite Experiments wasArtificial Lunar Meteorites?

[Mr EMan]

> Dave Gheesling wrote:
> "...Meteorites don't enter our atmosphere attached
> to spheres, and presumably that artificial contraption may
> have made for a different-than-typical result"
> Dave
> www.fallingrocks.com

I totally agree, Dave.

Yet again I am not getting all the original post but in regard to Dave's quote 
...  This was recently raised on the list with out-of-context examples 
suggesting that fusion crust is not what colors meteorites black, Fusion crust 
does not always form, yada yada.  The example cited was the ESA experiment 
series called STONE( 1-7?). (and BioPan).(Not acronyms apparently-- just 
project names)

In acquiring knowledge there is always a risk in knowing how to Google without 
yet having fundamental understanding of the subject matter to compare and 
contrast. That is ok as we were all ignorant of the world once in our past. 
Wisdom and more knowledge are acquired in time and mediates that 
disconnect-hopefully.

STONE/BioPan was a series of experiments to ascertain effects on various 
rocks(sedimentary,metamorphic,and igneous of various chemical/mineral 
composition*) in an artificial, re-entry setting to study the survivability of 
fossils, organic chemicals and living bacterial life forms(BioPan). It was NOT 
an ablation/fusion crust experiment per se.  In fact the samples were attached 
on the shadow area behind the return capsule at a point known as the stagnation 
zone.  This is an area out of the slipstream where maximum heating is 
concentrated without full evaporating air flow**.  This design was a compromise 
to preserve the 15mm thin samples while still exposing them to maximum heating 
them to around 2000degC. Much ablation did occur however and the sample most 
resembling a meteorite was lost entirely(basalt).  The next closest sample was 
"micro-fossil infused, olivine sand" cemented together with gypsum which has a 
lower melting/disintegration point than the
 samples it held in place--much of this sample was lost as well. In all the 
coverage I was only able to locate two "sample" photos with only one having a 
before and after view.

My opinion: the experiment was an add-on to an existing mission and was rushed 
for funding approval and launch date-- like most orbital experiments. This 
resulted in an ill thought through design that most any geology/chemical 
undergrad major could predict the failures of. I'll omit specific for now.

Bottom line is, while it seems on the surface to be a "meteorite experiment" it 
was not in a strict sense. Parts were insightful and did tend to confirm what 
was already know through meteorite internal heating research. One has to glean 
from these results those which are applicable to meteorite science and to 
discard those results stemming from compromised design and the limitations of 
of an experimental package. 

Elton
 
Footnotes: 
* One rock sample was dolomite which on heating, outside a pressure vessel, 
doesn't "melt/fuse" but sublimates carbon dioxide and leaves milk of magnesia 
and quicklime behind.  No fusion crust should have been predicted and no fusion 
crust was seen-- only a white powder "film"--who'd a guessed?

The high-feldspar-containing sandstone sample did melt but the "fusion crust" 
was largely composed of the fibers from the holding fixture. Next time I 
recommend quartzite which is feldspar depleted.

**I believe there ARE implications for understanding flight mark features on 
the back of oriented meteorites as they too have stagnation zones. e.g bubbles, 
froth etc.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Dam Hammer a Mulligan

[Mr EMan]

This is like the problem I have with calling skin, bone, and blood an "organ" 
because it technically meets the definition of organ in that it is an 
assemblage of cells that serve a common function.

Speaking of Blood, I am glad I am not the one having to catalog all the sub 
categories.  I can see it now, a handbook like Rules of Golf which includes 
every conceivable situation and a jury of three old meteorite geesers 
deliberating case by case-- Each category being named after the fist notorious 
finder of a particular case(e.g A Mulligan where if it missed the road you get 
to pick it up and drop it over your shoulder or off set it by the length of 
your metal detector).  Aye that be an Arnold, A Farmer, or a Garcia...

Elton


--- On Wed, 3/18/09, cdtuc...@cox.net  wrote:
> I thought a damn is a man made structure? A bridge is more
> than a road as well? Not just a road but a structure. A road
> becomes a structure when it is a bridge.  STRUCTURE seems to
> be the key word here. Carl
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Re: [meteorite-list] Peekskill and UFOs ..was Hammer Juancheng etc

[Mr EMan]

I wish I had had you hear last week to explain this to some new friends of 
mine,Matthias.

I don't know if anyone recalls this but soon after Peekskill hit there was a 
elaborate web page espousing that Peekskill was shot specifically into 
Michele's car by aliens to send a message about the upcoming end of the world 
in 2000 (which I now assume was postponed till Dec 2012).  Seems the author had 
deciphered a cosmic puzzle via her license plate numbers through an elaborate 
list of references and azimuths  etc.--this to demonstrate how accurate they 
could steer objects over UFO-ology class space time voids.  

I have long-since always placed aluminum foil and thick mud over my 
license(registration) plate to defeat Alien detection and avoid such a fate.  
"I explained this over and over to the officer,I says to Your Honor, but he 
insisted I tell it to you personally"... I should be out in time for Tucson.

Elton


--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Matthias Bärmann  wrote:
snip
"That reminds me of old German God Thor (or Donar), closely
related to old Greek Zeus, old roman Jupiter tonans, old Celt Taranis,
using a stony (sic!) thunderbolt as a weapon, thrown vehemently via lightning 
from sky to earth.
 
 All these prominent guys: did they waste their time by throwing just for fun? 
Of course not. At least they  t r i e d  to hit someone or something."

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Re: [meteorite-list] Iridium (+ Osmium ? + Technetium ?) measuring and testing

[Mr EMan]

Hello Darren The original post never made it to my mail box. To the original 
posters questions about metal detectors:

One of the points to be made is that a metal detector only detects free metal 
not elements.  It is a "field test" and searching for specific elements is a 
"lab test'
 
 As they say on the American TV Game Show-- Family Feud --"gudanzer"! my I 
say--"gudlinks".
Elton

--- On Sun, 3/15/09, Darren Garrison  wrote:
 
> >A- measuring on the field/ meteorite finding/ first testing:
> >I read often that finders/hunters use magnets. What
> about a metal detector measuring Iridium ?
> >or is Iridium detection too close to other elements, or too small in content 
> >to be singled out ? and what about Osmium ? or Technetium ?
> >
> >B- testing
> >How is Iridium (or Osmium, or Technetium) analysed and
> tested ? Is there any non-invasive way to test one or more of
> them, to keep the meteorite "as is" ?
> 
> I was sitting here trying my best to remember the name of a
> type of measurement used to find very small amounts of atoms in materials (as 
> is often the case) it
> wasn't coming to me.  Fortunately I remembered it being
> described in a book by Walter Alverez called T. rex and the Crater of 
> Doom,searched down my copy and was reminded that it is "neutron activation 
> analysis".  Good book on the
> detective work behind the discovery of the iridium (and
> other rare element) concentrations at the K/T boundary.  You should try to 
> get your hands on a copy. You can preview big chunks of it on Google Books:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=kkHhl67ixwEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=rex+and+the+crater+of+doom#PPA66,M1
> 
> Use the right-hand search window to search for
> "neutron activation analysis" in
> the book.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_activation_analysis
> 
> As for technetium, I wouldn't hold my breath about
> finding much of it.  Very
> short half life, both in human terms for some isotopes
> (hours to days) and in cosmic terms (at most a few million years, a blink of 
> the eye in the age of a
> meteorite).  The amount (from some googling) produced
> naturally by uranium decay and neutron absorbtion in molybdenum seems to be 
> vanishingly small.  Doesn't
> look to be much to be a mesurable amount to picked up from
> the solar wind (though this article is pretty old)
> http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdataupload/upload/insa/INSA_1/20005aca_407.pdf
> 
> Here's an article touching on the decay products of
> technetium in meteorites:
> 
> http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/jnrs/paper/JN63/jn6325.pdf
> 
> and another:
> 
> http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1877.pdf
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Re: [meteorite-list] (AD) 2 METEORITES FORSALE

[Mr EMan]

--- On Sun, 3/15/09, geo...@aol.com  wrote:
> I personally don't object to his many ads...he's
> got some  real bargains  there. Now if others would post just as good 
> bargains, I'd be  favorable towards them too.  :O) 
> GeoZay  

 Caveat Emptor George-- For several sellers there are a fair amount of reports 
of:
1) meteorites never shipped after being paid for, 
2)specimens bought and never paid for and, 
3)switching junk material out and selling it for more valuable and better known 
material with faked provenience. 

Even with a copy of a data card from a reputable prior owner you've no way of 
knowing you were getting what was offered.  Ever wonder how a seller can 
dispose of material costing $50 a gram for $5 a gram, else give it away for 
advertising and still be in business? Offers that are concluded at well below 
market value can't go on year after year unless something fishy is going 
on--such as what is being advertised really isn't what is actually on the 
table. For me "Gosh I umm  I mixed up data cards  aaah h  I got mixed up, 
I'll never do it again" are smoke screens for scammers 99% of the time.

I'd only buy if there was no chance it could be misidentified( Millillibillie, 
SA, Gao complete stone  etc. and It was no more than 30% of the published 
purchase price.  Some sellers always publish their purchase price just in 
advance of posting it to ebay.

Elton

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[meteorite-list] Chiemgau--an unsung hammer

[Mr EMan]

Chiemgau in Southern Germany contains a 4500yo crater field which was largely 
brought to scientific light just this decade and largely investigated by what 
we fondly know as "amateurs" --quiet capable and serious amateurs I might add. 
These appears to be a perfect marriage of amateur and academic cooperation.

Their thoroughness is a hallmark to achieve in future investigation.
Documentation for this crater field is top notch and has been presented in 
detail at this website.



The PDF file at this link is deserving of book status and contains amongst 
other things, photos of bone and hair samples suggesting the Chiemgau impactor 
was indeed a very large hammer.



Are any of the CIRT members also members of this list?  IF so please speak up 
and take a bow!!

Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas Bull

[Mr EMan]

Hello George, List
I believe Carl pointed out that the translated term "Bull" does not necessarily 
mean bovine but could be any male animal. I don't know if ewe included all 
female animals and not just a female sheep. So the bull reference could be 
referring to the llama.

In blast/overpressure testing I am directly familiar with, goats and less so 
sheep, have an aorta "defect" which makes them highly susceptible to shock that 
doesn't affect humans.

Elton

--- On Sun, 3/15/09, geo...@aol.com  wrote:
> >>Does anyone know whether shock  waves crated by an
> object the size of  
> Carancas could have been  sufficient to have killed a
> nearby bull?<<

 I feel comfortable in thinking that the Carancas shock waves could have been  
sufficient to kill a bull if it was of close proximity. 
GeoZay  
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteoroids Before Meteorites

[Mr EMan]

Let me discuss this another way.  Carl I believe that you really didn't mean to 
say that the color of a space weathered meteoroid's surface is the reason it is 
black when it reaches the ground.  Ordinary chondrites arrive mostly 
blackish/charcoal-gray because of a melted film of magnetite and high iron 
silicates which forms black glass--Not because of their pre-entry colors which 
are moot once ablation begins. 

External color before entry has practically nothing per se to do with color 
after entry. Color before entry was what was being discussed and the reasoning 
behind that has already been posted.  Fusion crust has to do with composition 
which is why the link you provided leads to a false impression about normal 
fusion crust colors and how they relate to matrix colors.

 The "fusion" crust of a sandstone meteorite would hardly be typical. Seems to 
me that you are mixing up fusion crust color and meteoroid matrix colors. If 
not please explain how West was black already and now is white inside If 
you really believe the crust in space is the same crust after entry then I 
encourage you to do some more reading about how much of a meteoroid is lost due 
to ablation.

Elton

--- On Fri, 3/13/09, cdtuc...@cox.net  wrote:

> From: cdtuc...@cox.net 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteoroids Before Meteorites
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, "Eric Wichman" 
> 
> Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 3:40 PM
> Eric,
> This is a very interesting question to me because ; How do
> we know what color these west rocks were prior to entering
> our Atmosphere?Maybe we don't? As seen in the video of
> the fall it looks to me that something came apart in
> mid-air. But maybe those are represented by only the broken
> ones found on the ground. What if the complete stones
> actually came in black? It is not a stretch to imagine that
> because we simply do not know the answer. There is no way we
> could know. Before you think I'm crazy consider the only
> bit of information we know for a fact was done by the
> Europeans called "stone6".
> http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Stone_6_Artificial_Meteorite_Shows_Martian_Impactors_Could_Carry_Traces_Of_Life_999.html
> In this experiment none of the rocks turned black. Some of
> the rocks in fact did not change colors at all. and the ones
> that did, changed to a creamy white crust. 
> So, who is to say these rocks are not already black while
> traveling through space. The evidence here actually leans in
> that direction. Maybe these rocks were already coated with
> black crust and that is what protects them from evaporation
> when they travel through our atmosphere. 
> Again, this may sound silly but if you look at the evidence
> from this study and you acknowledge the fact that the things
> we do see in space are in fact already dark it does make you
> wonder. Maybe our atmosphere is not the reason they are
> black after all? Something else comes to mind, We have all
> seen pictures of meteors traveling through our atmosphere
> and then back out again. Wouldn't those accumulate crust
> and then continue on there journey? ???.
> Carl Esparza
> IMCA  5829
> Meteoritemaxa
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