[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Hi Listees, On a lighter and much more important note... "...Some leading astronomers are quite confident that mankind will make contact with intelligent alien life within two decades..." http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/08/humans-predicted-to-make-contact-with-an-extraterrestrial-civilization-within-two-decadesa-galaxy-cl.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-524673/Humans-make-contact-aliens-decades-say-astronomers.html I have a couple questions I've not really seen asked on this list in the two years I've been a member. Though I suspect it's probably because most believe it's not meteoritic. It does have a relationship to meteoritics simply because of the direction the science is headed. No I'm not talking Panspermia (though I'm not convinced that's not possible) I'd like to pose the questions anyway because I think they are directly related to meteorites and WHY we study meteorites. Who here believes in aliens? (sorry had to do it) lol Seriously... Who here believes that sometime in the near future we will discover, or be discovered by another life form? Now the next question... Assuming that we do find life out there in the next couple decades. Do you believe that extraterrestrial life will be intelligent or non sentient microbial lifeform? Carbon based or some other unknown form of life? Hope I didn't open a can of worms here... Naaa, Let's open that can and feast on the innards! It truly is related to meteorites... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA www.meteoritesusa.com www.Spacifieds.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Eric: It's my belief that We Are Alone! There's nobody out there. Life and intelligence is a singularity, a miracle, call it what you will, it only happened once, here on good old Planet Earth. We are the Seed that will spread throughout the Universe by Space Migration. It's our manifest destiny and a matter of survival. Nobody knows how or why it happened, it just did. It was either God or chance, take your pick. There are those who claim otherwise, but they have yet to provide even the thinnest shred of evidence. Those who make extraordinary claims must provide some extraordinary evidence to back it up. And they never do! Not one person abducted by ETs has ever grabbed an alien cellphone or anything else to prove they were aboard an intergalactic space ship. The argument for aliens goes something like this: "Well there's billions and billions of galaxies, one of them has to harbor life. It just has to! You know, a billion monkeys typing for a billion years, and one of them writes a Shakespearean Sonnet or the Book of Genesis, whatever. I think they will just type gibberish for eternity. Life doesn't just pop up all over the place. It can never be created in the laboratory. It's impossible to make live stuff out of dead stuff! (Except for that one time.) This argument puts a lot of faith in Chance and the Laws of Probability. Might as well say Yahweh or Brahma did it. Evolution guided by chance and probability, how is that any different from chaos and total randomness? And why do the aliens always appear in trailer parks and never at Houston Control, NAU, or the JPL? Now if I could see one bit of hard evidence, I would change my mind in a minute. Just my dos pesos, Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
To all listees pondering the Eternal Verities: Just because the Universe is really big is not an argument that there is Life out there. The Ocean is really big, but that's not an argument for the existence of a Loch Ness monster or any other species of pleisosaur. I have to actually see a unicorn before I'll believe that they exist. I'm Old School, I have to actually see a visible light photograph of just one of these supposed googols of Earth like planets. All I've heard is pure speculation, forumulae, projections of our loneliness, (there has to be someone out there!) extrapolations, computer models, mathematical probabilities, etc. Still waiting on the evidence! Not proof, just a simple tiny shred of evidence. One simple SOS in Morse Code on any one of the billions and billions of channels monitered by Seti. One peer reviewed, in focus, well lit, properly exposed photograph of an actual flying saucer. One little tiny fossil in a meteorite. Anything! Closer to home, I'm still waiting for anything at all from the Mars probes. Just one incontrovertible shred of evidence where all the scientists go: "Yes, there's life on Mars!" Until I see this evidence I have to conclude that on the closest planet that was once very Earth like, there is no sign of life. If we can't even find it on Mars, which should have been teeming with life, which should have left tons of evidence which should have been found by now, then I must conclude that the Universe is a vast lifeless place. The only life that I can verify by empirical evidence is right here on this planet. You can do all the thought experiments you want, in your imagination you can populate the entire vast Universe with bacteria, or Star Trek/Star Wars like critters, whatever you like, it's all pure speculation. All that we know for sure is that is Life here on Earth. Plenty of it. The problem is nobody knows where it came from. Nobody is really sure even what it is. Can someone tell me what the Life Force is that differentiates living things from inanimate objects? Is it Chi?, Ki? Prana? What the heck is it? Did it originate here on Earth. (I think it did.) If it did, then how did that first coacervate of organic molecules become alive in the first place? How did it know how to assemble a strand of self replicating RNA? At exactly what point did the Life Force enter this assemblage of non living stuff? Don't even get me started on the Miracle of Intelligence/Consciousness! As if anyone knows what that little voice in your head is! This should be pretty simple stuff to figure out, even for a young, dumb species like homo sapiens. After all, it happened right here on our home planet just a few billion years ago right under our noses. People will tell you otherwise, but we don't have a clue as to what life is or how it got started. Until these basic questions about the origins of life on our own planet are answered I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves by believing in aliens. Little green men or tall gray men, I have to see one to believe in them. Dos mas pesos, Phil Whitmer Nota bene: Of course I could be completely wrong and Dr. Edgar Mitchell could be completely right! __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Darren: That's funny! But realistically, the percentage is much lower if you figure in the complete lack of evidence for life on the Moon, Mars, all the other planets and their moons, the Sun, all the asteroids, all the comets, and any other stuff that might be hanging around the edges of the Solar System. If there is no evidence for life anywhere in the entire Solar System, (that I know of), even on such a life friendly place as Mars, then maybe life doesn't just pop into existence just because conditions are right. Maybe it is just a one time thing. I wish I could afford to be cryogenically frozen like Walt Disney and wake up in a few million years to find out! Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Mike: OK, now I believe in the tall gray men from outer space men, now prove to me the existence of little green men! LOL, Phil __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
The Drake Equation is a prime example of mental masuturbation. It proves absolutely nothing. How can an equation prove anything when none of the variables are known with any certainity? As Rob points out, one zero nullifies the whole silly thing. How about Ne; the number of known Earth like planets supporting life=0. If you want dumb equations, the creationists have a bunch of them that proves there is exactly one planet that supports life. I can make up an equation that proves the existence of mermaids, bigfoot, Nessie, unicorns, dragons, what imaginary being do you want to believe in? I'll write a formula to prove it's existence. I'll be easy, because I already know that life begets life. The Drake Equation misses the key concept in the alien debate; mainly how does abiogenesis occur? How does non living matter become alive? Once we figure out the mechanics of this most basic problem, then we can extrapolate about whether this seemingly miraculous event could happen more than once. If you're going to believe in spontaneous generation on other planets, you had better understand how it happened here first. Someone has to explain to me how those left handed isomer amino acids from meteorites organized themselves into living, self replicating DNA. (See this thread is related to meteorites!) Crichton summed it up best at a lecture at Caltech : The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. [...] As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from "billions and billions" to zero. An expression that can mean anything means nothing. Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless... And puhleez, don't give me that stupid absence of evidence argument, it didn't hold water when Rumsfeld used it for imaginary WMDs, and it doesn't justify the belief in phantasmagorical alien creatures. Mental masturbation is fun, but don't confuse it with real science! From the Urban Dictionary: Mental masturbation: 1. The act of engaging in useless yet intellectually stimulating conversation, usually as an excuse to avoid taking constructive action in your life. 2. The act of engaging in intelligent and interesting conversation purely for the enjoyment of your own greatness and individuality. Subjects range from obscure lp's to cultural movements in preindustrial societies. Either delivered through grand monlogues or subtle conversation orientation, it links large words and random references resulting in nothing acually being communicated. 3. Overly intensive self gratifying procrastination, thought and contemplation for a subject not necessarily warranting such effort. 4. The pretense of superior knowledge or intelligence by claiming conjecture, theory, feeling or opinion as fact. 5. The act of engaging in impractical/nonproductive mental exercise / thinkings / writings / etc., through which a practitioner only comforts oneself mentally. Such acts don't lead to any constructive results what so ever in the real world; some might even imagine oneself being transformed into superman, or simply the opposite sex, etc. In short, it's just bs/crap. Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Kirk, We all know the Universe is really, really big. Maybe even infinite, maybe infinite plus one, maybe even double dog infinite. What does that have to do with abiogenisis? Why don't you tell me how life got started here on Earth, (that would be real science), then we'll move on to whether or not aliens exist. (That would be idle speculation). Let's use this line of reasoning: the oceans are really really big, not infinite, but really big. At the bottom of the Marianas Trench lives a society of mermaids, mermen and sea serpents. How do I know this? Because the oceans are really big! The Earth is also really big, so somewhere on the vast Tibetan Plateau lives: Bigfoot! Size doesn't matter, it's not a valid argument. Beliefs without evidence can take you anywhere you want to go. Ghosts? Doppelgangers, why not? Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Dear Phil, and Exobio-Scepticists, I wouldn't give too much on whatever Crichton has to say - how about doing some real homework, and studying books written by scientists first? Read, e.g., "Vital Dust" by Nobel Prize winner Christian de Duve who answers most of the basic questions on how "it happened here first". De Duve, who's everything else but a romantic dreamer and certainly not the kind of guy who's wasting his time with mental masturbation, comes to the conclusion that life must be kind of a "cosmic imperative" instead of a weird exception. But do me a favour, don't use the shortcut, i.e. don't Google it up, and avoid reading online summaries on Wikipedia and other sites - read the book from page 1 to 543, it's really worth the effort. After that you might want to re-read the studies on Murchison and other carbonaceous chondrites which do not only prove to contain a smorgasbord of various cosmogenic amino acids, but also nucleobases (the building blocks of RNA and DNA), water, and many other ingredients of life (as we know it), in addition to all the astronomic studies about planetary nebulae, the presence of water, PAH's, methane, and other carbon-based molecules in protoplanetary discs etc. pp. ... If you're still sceptic after all of that you might want to take a final step, look into the mirror and ask yourself if it's just your own bias that stops you from seing the obvious. I hope you don't take this as an offense as it sure isn't ment as one, but as someone who studied philosophical anthropology and the history of science it always takes me by surprise how many educated people don't understand the full consequences of the Copernican Shift. Don't get me wrong, of course they do "know" that Earth isn't the flat center of our solar system, galaxy, or universe. However, most did just exchange their geocentric view for a slightly modified anthropocentric view where man is still that special, unique, and most exquisite being: the Pride of Creation. And, of course, that also requires that life is unique, and restricted to that small planet Earth: the Cradle of Humanity. But, how scientific is that? It's pure human hubris, pitiful self-importance, IMHO. Don't get me wrong: I don't believe in aliens contacting us anytime soon - this is a enterily different affair and mainly a matter of time and space - but to deny the probability of life somewhere else in the universe is as stupid as the idea that planets around other stars are rare and exceptional (something that was often believed up to the late 20th century, also for obvious reasons), and as short sighted as Newton's assertion that meteorites can't come from space. Today we do know better. Don't we? My two CM2's, Norbert Classen -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Phil Whitmer Gesendet: Freitag, 28. August 2009 16:40 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted The Drake Equation is a prime example of mental masuturbation. It proves absolutely nothing. How can an equation prove anything when none of the variables are known with any certainity? As Rob points out, one zero nullifies the whole silly thing. How about Ne; the number of known Earth like planets supporting life=0. If you want dumb equations, the creationists have a bunch of them that proves there is exactly one planet that supports life. I can make up an equation that proves the existence of mermaids, bigfoot, Nessie, unicorns, dragons, what imaginary being do you want to believe in? I'll write a formula to prove it's existence. I'll be easy, because I already know that life begets life. The Drake Equation misses the key concept in the alien debate; mainly how does abiogenesis occur? How does non living matter become alive? Once we figure out the mechanics of this most basic problem, then we can extrapolate about whether this seemingly miraculous event could happen more than once. If you're going to believe in spontaneous generation on other planets, you had better understand how it happened here first. Someone has to explain to me how those left handed isomer amino acids from meteorites organized themselves into living, self replicating DNA. (See this thread is related to meteorites!) Crichton summed it up best at a lecture at Caltech : The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. [...] As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from "billions and billions" to zero. An expression that can mean anything means nothing. Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless... And puhleez, don't give me tha
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Hi Eric: All those really smart people you mentioned and countless others could all put their heads together in one huge conference call and between them, they still could not figure out something so simple as how abiogenisis actually works. A simple basic question: how does non living matter become alive? So yes, you're absolutely right, humans are ignorant. And they are so arrogant as to project their beliefs onto the whole universe, without the thinnest shred of evidence to back it up. I live in a fact and evidence based world. Now, if the tinfoil hat wearing crowd wants to believe in aliens, flying saucers, alien abduction, crop circles, then I say open up your closed mind and go for it! As for me I never once believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. Sad, I know. One of the consequences of living in a reality based world. And I know, it's fun to dream and imagine, but without facts and evidence, it's just the sound of one hand clapping. Just the facts, ma'am, Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Norbert, Maybe you could just sum it up for me in a nutshell and explain the principles and mechanics of non living matter suddenly becoming alive. I admit, I'm way too dumb to figure it out. In a paragraph, explain abiogenisis for me. My basic point is, humans are too stupid to figure out how life got started here on Earth. Then in their ignorance and arrogance, they start claiming there is other life that spontaneously generated on some other planet long ago and in a faraway galaxy. So will someone please address this basic point and explain the origin of life to me? I'm not the one making extraordinary claims with nothing to back it up. Norbert, you seem like a really smart guy, so tell me how did life start here on Earth? Once I understand that, then I will be much more open to the idea that life just randomly pops up all over the place. It seems to me really arrogant to claim to know something,( life exists on other planets), when I 'm just stating the obvious: We have no evidence of this. Phil Whitmer Oh, and will everyone please stop knocking Crichton, I loved Jurassic Park! __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Darren, Of course I'm fixated on the origin of life, that's what this thread is about isn't it? Nobody knows what life is or how it got started here on our own home planet, so how could we possibly know it exists elsewhere? Just because we want it to does not make it so. And I'm still waiting for the slimmest most slender thread of evidence to back up those claims. I've heard nothing but conjecture based on beliefs. Your belief in alien life forms sounds religious to me, like you have faith in something you know ain't so. Just like Carl Sagan. Carl really really wanted to believe in aliens, but he was so smart, he knew that without evidence, you just couldn't go there. Seti is one of the most noble experiments undertaken by mankind. When they detect that repeating sequence of prime numbers, then I will go there and take my place among the true believers. The probabality of life popping into existence out of non living matter is the smallest unit of measure above zero. Just think about it, it's not alive, poof!, it's alive. To believe this extremely unlikely, some would say stastically impossible thing, just happens over and over requires more faith than I can muster. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I'll say it till the day I die and my atoms return to the cosmic dust from whence they came. Just show me the money. Yours in religiousity, Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Darren, list, Ubi defecerit ratio, ibi est fidei aedificatio. (in short: 'where reason fails, there faith constructs'.) Augustine, Sermon 247 On a different subject: what do I have to expect to pay per gram for a 200g-300g fully crusted Bassikounou H5 meteorite? Cheers Werner & Sandra Schroer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Hi Darren, I'm back to join the circle jerk! Please note: the following are just my personal beliefs and I will completely recant it all upon being provided credible evidence that I'm full of hooey. So I'm a stupid Yahwehist? You're telling me to believe in alien beings that live up in the heavens without providing a single shred of evidence for their existence? Are they like angels? I'm not making any extraordinary claims about the existence of any kind of god or other extraterrestrial life form, as you are. Martin hit the nail on the head, you're trying to convert me to your religion. Just have faith, you say, you don't need evidence, you backward tribal animist ancestor worshipper. Come join the New Religion! Believe all it has to say, even when it oversteps its limits. Show me some evidence I say, and I get the freakin' Drake Equation?!? Believe in the Drake Equation, for it is Holy Writ chime in the chorus of True Believers. It surely proves there is life out there. The Drake Equation is some ink scribbled on some paper, it's not magical runes. The Book of Genesis is some ink scribbled on paper. I have faith in neither one. I fart in the general direction of the drake equation. You want a real equation? How about E=mc2. Now that one's got some gut to it! Science can only take you so far. It's fine for predicting when comets will appear, it's piss poor for explaining how life began. Even Darwin wouldn't touch that hot potato! He knew the limits of science. It's limited by the analog computing power of the human brain. You step outside those bounds, then you've got a religion. When you try to take science too far, and arrogantly state that you no longer need evidence for your beliefs, how is this any different from say, a Cargo Cult? At this point, nobody knows what life is or how it started. The human mind seems to want to take everything back to a single point. The entire Universe started as a single point. Not two or three or a googol, just one. If you believe the mitochondrial DNA evidence, the entire human race can be traced back to a single African woman. All life seems to have started from one single coacervate that miraculously figured out the whole permeable membrane, DNA, RNA protein thing. I haven't heard that there were other coacervates, just that single one. Really, what would the chances be of two coacervates with the same double helix, membrane etc. No, I don't believe in partial life. It's all or nothing. That single coacervate with it's double helical strands of amino acids was an assemblage of organic compounds one second, the next it just popped into life. And then the horse race began. This is what I was taught in high school back in my youth during the hunting gathering days. Now, if ever there was a miracle, this was it! And I mean that in a non religious sense. As far as I can tell there were 2 other miracles just like it. The Universe miraculously popped into existence (there's no other way to describe it), and human intelligence popped into existence. Things so incredibly rare they never happened before and will never happen again. I'm always astounded when people act like life popping into existence is no big deal. Yeah, shit just happens! Happens all the time, you just need the right building blocks, the right reducing atmosphere, etc. In fact, I've heard that the laws of physics require it! It's no big deal, it pops up all the time. Are you kidding me? Life popping into existence is the most astounding, incrediburgable, tremendous, awesome, strange, weird and statistically unlikely thing that ever happened! This unbelievable singularity only happened once as far as I can see. Now you might believe it's just a casual byproduct of the right building blocks being in the right place at the right time. NOT! Building blocks are to life what tubes of paint are to a Van Gogh painting. Harold Urey showed the path to travel with his famous experiment back in the 50's. But you know what? In all the time since then, not one single living thing has ever been created in a lab. Not even close. Not even a virus (OK they might be partially alive, but is anyone proposing a virus as the original life form?) So this thing that just casually happens all on its own all over the place, can't be produced in a lab? Why the heck not? We don't have the technology or the equations and formulae and the proper building blocks to do this? What exactly is the problem? Darren, your religion is failing me, I don't think I'll convert. And furthermore, this thing called life which just has to happen when conditions are right, never happened on Mars! Not a speck of life detected. Maybe there are microbes living deep in the mantle that live off the absorbtion of hydrogen, but again, just conjecture with nothing to back it up. So it appears not only did life never arise on Mars, it seem like it's to
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Bob: What do you mean when you say there was no evidence for the composition of the stars? It was right there in the form of meteorites, but people then were a lot dumber than today. All those dummies had to do was analyse a meteorite and they would know what the sun was made of. This isn't that far fetched, because back in the olden days a leading theory of meteorites was that they were thrown off the sun. So that one's pretty obvious. And as far as Urey's Earth like planet is concerned, well guess what? It's right next door and it's as dead as a doornail. Unless I missed the headlines?: News Flash: Life Found on Mars! The absence of life on Mars is a huge blow to the quasi religious belief in aliens. Oh, and I'm being self serving by pointing out the stupidity of mankind? Compare the War Department budget with NASA's. I rest my case. I'm just saying that people shouldn't go around saying they know what they don't know. Again, I'm not the one positing the existence of phantasmagorical outer space aliens. I know what I don't know, (Did Rumsfeld say that?) In other words, I know I'm dumb, and that almost makes me smart. Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Eric, No, there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it's guarded by a leprechaun riding a unicorn. And I don't need any evidence to prove it either!!! Because as we all know, anything is possible if you just want to believe it badly enough! ;) Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Bob: You're right, I stand corrected. I collect old encylopedias, reading them is fascinating. I think it was one from the 1860's where they were talking about the current consensual theory of meteorites being thrown off the sun. I was confusing that with some other historical meteorite reading I was doing. My point was the evidence was there right under their noses, they just didn't know it! And I do believe people get dumber and smarter. Just look at the Dark Ages. It's not like Diogenes didn't figure out that meteorites were from outer space just through pure deductive reasoning, same way Democritus did with the theory of atoms. Another hobby is the study of ancient Greek philosophers, those dudes figured out just about everything, and without technology to speak of. I believe we are currently entering another Dark Age of sorts, the majority of people are getting dumber, while a tiny minority are getting smarter. As evidence of this assertion, I give you prime time TV! Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Darren, Yes they were fools. See my reference to Democritus and Diogenes. These men and the other Greek Classical Philosophers, weren't fools. (With the possible exception of Aristotle.) They pretty much laid the groundwork for everything we know today, and they did it in the 5th Century BC. And they didn't need no stinking mass spectrometer to do it either. It was pure brain power. Btw, your arguments are starting to deteriorate into personal attacks. Funny, but still personal. I expected more from you. Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Eric, I'm sorry you feel that way, I was just using Pro Lifer logic. I tried to use humor instead of a personal attack. I'm starting to tire of being called stupid and ignorant because I won't go along with the consensual reality consensus around here which is: I believe in Little Green Men and I don't need no stinking evidence to back it up! The main argument I've gotten is this: I'm really smart and I believe in Little Green Men from Outer Space without a shred of evidence to back it up; you don't so you must be really dumb! I really expected with all the astrophysicists, exo biologists, astronomers, math and physics whizzes, NASA scientists, and the rest of this ragtag group of misfits, I would get some solid answers. I got nothing but the idiotic drake equation (to show my derision, I refuse to capitalize it). I'm starting to get a sense of a lemming mentality. I know I'm in way over my head, I got a D- in second semester calculus for chrissakes! (Though I did get a B in advanced probability theory.) So I can't argue theoretical physics very well. What I do have is a modicum of common sense, which tells me there are no Little Green Men. Now can we please drop this and get back to a juicy discussion of the latest escapades of our favorite meteorite dealers? Where in the hell is Enrico Fermi when you really need him? Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
- Original Message - From: "Phil Whitmer" To: Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 7:26 AM Subject: Alien Contact Predicted G'Day GeoZay: Yes, humans are living contradictions! I've now taken the stance that life and intelligence are so improbable, that I don't believe they exist at all. I've embraced the Descartian viewpoint. None of us really exist, we're just a Matrixian fantasy in the mind of Brahma. (Not Brahman, Brahma). Does that mean we don't have to pay our taxes? Phil Whitmer I never claimed that life does not exist elsewhere, I'm just saying I don't believe it without any supporting evidence.<< Doesn't this sentence contradict yourself? GeoZay __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted
Hi Greg, all - "Its my thoughts, as I said before that any intelligent life we encounter will actually come to us.I do think that they would be far more advanced and most likely be machine/robot that would actually visit us rather then the actual beings that created them. If they have the ability to create advanced AI and travel space at the speed (as we know it)it would take to reach us, surely we would be far behind them and comperable to the gap between humans and apes. With that in mind, would they really bother to make contact with such a self destructive species like us? Would they even see us as a lifeform worth contacting?" I wonder, would they talk to a Mac and snub a PC? ho, ho, ho :P) Seriously, no machine has ever been given any desires and sense of self, and hence we have no AI. Returning to meteorites (and isn't about time) I am quite curious as to why the form in ALH84001 is so widely dismissed by so many on the list. Continuing my earlier rant, the US is the world's leader in the stupidity industry - I know you may find this hard to believe, but World Explorers Club and Adventures Unlimited Press, Ancient American, NEXUS, Atlantis Rising and the von Daniken folks are all a well connected international mailing list media distribution operation. Write me for a free copy of "Amazing Stories", how it all came to be, if you want one. "Whales speak French on the bottom of the ocean" "I'd rather believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that rocks fall from the sky." "Man did not walk on the Moon. The whole thing was faked by NASA." E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Eric, It's 5:00 in the morning. Couldn't you wait until the afternoon to talk about aliens? :D Carl _ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
If they are truly intelligent, they won't talk to us ! Andre Bordeleau From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] on behalf of Meteorites USA [e...@meteoritesusa.com] Sent: August 24, 2009 7:42 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted Hi Listees, On a lighter and much more important note... "...Some leading astronomers are quite confident that mankind will make contact with intelligent alien life within two decades..." Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA www.meteoritesusa.com www.Spacifieds.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
I would have to agree. I do think aliens exist, but if they are able to travel to us, they are so far advanced, we are not much more to them then ants infesting this planet. If we do come across aliens or another intelligent race, I think it will most likely be machine/robot with AI and not a "flesh and blood" being. Any alien life will most certainly be a great deal more advanced then we are and will know to stay away from us due to how we are as a species. Just my 2 pennies. Greg C. --- On Mon, 8/24/09, DEBORAH ANNE K. MARTIN wrote: > From: DEBORAH ANNE K. MARTIN > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted > To: "meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com" > > Date: Monday, August 24, 2009, 11:39 AM > If they are truly intelligent, they > won't talk to us ! > > Andre Bordeleau > > From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com > [meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] > on behalf of Meteorites USA [e...@meteoritesusa.com] > Sent: August 24, 2009 7:42 AM > To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted > > Hi Listees, > > On a lighter and much more important note... > > "...Some leading astronomers are quite confident that > mankind will make > contact with intelligent alien life within two decades..." > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > www.meteoritesusa.com > www.Spacifieds.com > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Phil, I'm sure you saw this article a few months ago: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/4629672/AAAS-One-hundred-billion-trillion-planets-where-alien-life-could-flourish.html Mike Hankey http://www.mikesastrophotos.com On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Phil Whitmer wrote: > Eric: > > It's my belief that We Are Alone! There's nobody out there. Life and > intelligence is a singularity, a miracle, call it what you will, it only > happened once, here on good old Planet Earth. We are the Seed that will > spread throughout the Universe by Space Migration. It's our manifest > destiny and a matter of survival. Nobody knows how or why it happened, it > just did. It was either God or chance, take your pick. There are those who > claim otherwise, but they have yet to provide even the thinnest shred of > evidence. Those who make extraordinary claims must provide some > extraordinary evidence to back it up. And they never do! Not one person > abducted by ETs has ever grabbed an alien cellphone or anything else to > prove they were aboard an intergalactic space ship. > > The argument for aliens goes something like this: "Well there's billions and > billions of galaxies, one of them has to harbor life. It just has to! You > know, a billion monkeys typing for a billion years, and one of them writes > a Shakespearean Sonnet or the Book of Genesis, whatever. I think they will > just type gibberish for eternity. Life doesn't just pop up all over the > place. It can never be created in the laboratory. It's impossible to make > live stuff out of dead stuff! (Except for that one time.) > > This argument puts a lot of faith in Chance and the Laws of Probability. > Might as well say Yahweh or Brahma did it. Evolution guided by chance and > probability, how is that any different from chaos and total randomness? > > And why do the aliens always appear in trailer parks and never at Houston > Control, NAU, or the JPL? > > Now if I could see one bit of hard evidence, I would change my mind in a > minute. > > Just my dos pesos, > > Phil Whitmer > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Hi Phil and friends, Absence of evidence doesn't imply evidence of absence. While I tend to be skeptical about such things, I think bacteria-like creatures might be fairly common in the galaxy. Evolution would cause them to diversity and perhaps find the same pathway to multicelluarity like life on Earth did so long ago. Once you've got a multicellular organism, the sky's the limit. In time larger life forms would thrive, each adapted to and very intelligent in its particular environment. Whether or not they get to making spaceships, I think the odds are much smaller but not zero. It took life on this planet over 3 billion years to create a spacefaring species. If we could have seen the earliest life forms as they wriggled among the rocks, who would have guessed we'd be where we are today? So I think it's possible there are intelligent, space-roaming species out there, just not a lot of them. Bob On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Phil Whitmer wrote: > Eric: > > It's my belief that We Are Alone! There's nobody out there. Life and > intelligence is a singularity, a miracle, call it what you will, it only > happened once, here on good old Planet Earth. We are the Seed that will > spread throughout the Universe by Space Migration. It's our manifest > destiny and a matter of survival. Nobody knows how or why it happened, it > just did. It was either God or chance, take your pick. There are those who > claim otherwise, but they have yet to provide even the thinnest shred of > evidence. Those who make extraordinary claims must provide some > extraordinary evidence to back it up. And they never do! Not one person > abducted by ETs has ever grabbed an alien cellphone or anything else to > prove they were aboard an intergalactic space ship. > > The argument for aliens goes something like this: "Well there's billions and > billions of galaxies, one of them has to harbor life. It just has to! You > know, a billion monkeys typing for a billion years, and one of them writes > a Shakespearean Sonnet or the Book of Genesis, whatever. I think they will > just type gibberish for eternity. Life doesn't just pop up all over the > place. It can never be created in the laboratory. It's impossible to make > live stuff out of dead stuff! (Except for that one time.) > > This argument puts a lot of faith in Chance and the Laws of Probability. > Might as well say Yahweh or Brahma did it. Evolution guided by chance and > probability, how is that any different from chaos and total randomness? > > And why do the aliens always appear in trailer parks and never at Houston > Control, NAU, or the JPL? > > Now if I could see one bit of hard evidence, I would change my mind in a > minute. > > Just my dos pesos, > > Phil Whitmer > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted
Hi all - A long way from meteorites, but not so far from impactors. If they ever set up a NEO detecting radar on the Moon, then the same facility could be used to pick up the equivalent of "I Love Lucy" reruns from a galaxy far, far away. I think that the ratings will be phenomenal. Well, that's it - my joke for the month. E.P. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
That is just hogwash in my opinion---the Drake Equation proves that life MUST exist elsewhere. Even the SETI scientists agree that LIFE is probably abundant! Absence of Evidence is NOT Evidence of Absence!! Kirk.. - Original Message - From: "Phil Whitmer" To: Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:17 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted Eric: It's my belief that We Are Alone! There's nobody out there. Life and intelligence is a singularity, a miracle, call it what you will, it only happened once, here on good old Planet Earth. We are the Seed that will spread throughout the Universe by Space Migration. It's our manifest destiny and a matter of survival. Nobody knows how or why it happened, it just did. It was either God or chance, take your pick. There are those who claim otherwise, but they have yet to provide even the thinnest shred of evidence. Those who make extraordinary claims must provide some extraordinary evidence to back it up. And they never do! Not one person abducted by ETs has ever grabbed an alien cellphone or anything else to prove they were aboard an intergalactic space ship. The argument for aliens goes something like this: "Well there's billions and billions of galaxies, one of them has to harbor life. It just has to! You know, a billion monkeys typing for a billion years, and one of them writes a Shakespearean Sonnet or the Book of Genesis, whatever. I think they will just type gibberish for eternity. Life doesn't just pop up all over the place. It can never be created in the laboratory. It's impossible to make live stuff out of dead stuff! (Except for that one time.) This argument puts a lot of faith in Chance and the Laws of Probability. Might as well say Yahweh or Brahma did it. Evolution guided by chance and probability, how is that any different from chaos and total randomness? And why do the aliens always appear in trailer parks and never at Houston Control, NAU, or the JPL? Now if I could see one bit of hard evidence, I would change my mind in a minute. Just my dos pesos, Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:17:30 -0400, you wrote: >destiny and a matter of survival. Nobody knows how or why it happened, it >just did. It was either God or chance, take your pick. This is what is known as a false dichotomy. There is at least one more option than "god" or "chance"-- that some types of molecules or systems of molecules have the ability to make copies of themselves. That is a unquestionable fact-we call those systems of molecules "life." The question is, how unlikely is it that the first molecules capable of copying themselves - AT ANY DEGREE OF CRUDENESS-would form? Even the crudest degree of copyability opens a molecule up to the selective forces of natural selection-out of the variety of copied molecules, some will be better able to reproduce themselves than others. The building block molecules from which organisms are formed are common as dirt in the universe, present in comets, meteorites, vast interstellar clouds-everywhere. So we know that the raw materials of life are very common. And we know that life exists here. So the key question is, how often are conditions met where the molecules can, out of the trillions on trillions of interactions in an abiotic environment, combine to form molecules capable of providing a template for their own replication? My gut feeling is that-- in a very, very, very large universe, where it is every day becoming more obvious that planets are very common byproducts of stellar formation-there are millions, billions, trillions of planets with at least some type of life. And since there was a selective advantage for nucleated cells and multicellularity to evolve on Earth, I see no reason to think that a big chunk of life-bearing planets haven't done the same. >Might as well say Yahweh or Brahma did it. Evolution guided by chance and >probability, how is that any different from chaos and total randomness? Evolution is not guided by chance. Genetic mutations are random. Evolution is guided by natural selection, differential reproductive success. Natural selection and probability are the opposite of chance and randomness. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 04:42:34 -0700, you wrote: >Who here believes that sometime in the near future we will discover, or >be discovered by another life form? Utterly unknowable. Let's rephrase the question in a more Earthbound way. What are the chances that, in the near future, you and I will run into each other on the street? To make a reasonable prediction about that, you would have to know how far I live from you, know how often I travel and to where, know what I look like, etc. You know none of those things, so you have no way whatsoever to make any sort of meaningful prediction-even within orders of magnitude-- of the chances of you and I running into each other. We know nothing about where other intelligent species might be. We have no idea how or how fast they travel, if they are around and do travel. And we don't even know what communications from an alien would look like if we saw it-maybe aliens ARE beaming interstellar messages, but we either lack the technology to sense them or the knowledge to recognize them. It is an angels dancing on the head of a pin question. >Do you believe that extraterrestrial life will be intelligent or non >sentient microbial lifeform? Life on Earth for most of its history has been microscopic. I would bet finding germs is more likely than finding Germans (or space Sweeds, your choice.) > >Carbon based or some other unknown form of life? Carbon molecules are the most versatile and stable at temperatures in which Life As We Know It lives. Silicon based life would be much less likely (but possibly more likely at low temperatures.) Check out Peter Douglas Ward's book "Life As We Do Not Know It." __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Thanks Darren for your response. Sorry in advance for the long email, but I couldn't stop typing... ;) The alien question is obviously meant to get some discussion going on this topic which I feel hasn't been discussed enough on-list. (but who am I) I think there are a few reasons why as it's relates so personally with some people belief systems. Of which I am respectful. The biggest question in life is where do we come from. The next biggest is why are we here? But those questions are vague and answers would be subjective and interpretive at best, based on people's personal and religious beliefs. Rather I would ask the question in simpler terms related more toward an opinion based inquiry. Though that opinion can be scientific and educational in nature. Having said that I have to disagree with your statement and would like to answer your question: "...What are the chances that, in the near future, you and I will run into each other on the street? ..." Pretty good actually. This is a small planet. We're in the same field of science, though maybe not directly related, there are certain locational environmental, and educational commonalities. Those are simply, Location - Earth, name North America and The United States to be specific. Don't know what state you're in, but it's not physically far. Environment - Land. We all and both live on land and our method of travel is common. Education - We're in the same field. Study of meteorites. Whether that be scientific or enthusiastic. Now the only things missing is a meeting place of sorts. It has to be somewhere that's of common interest to us both. Hmmm... Where could that possibly be? The chances of us passing each other on the street are VERY likely considering we both have a shared interest AND there is very good likelihood that you would be at an industry related show. The Tucson or Denver show perhaps. I'm assuming of course that you might go to the Tucson or Denver show. ;) Now a problem arises from this. I don't know what you look like. So technically speaking we "could" pass each other on the street, and I would not know you from the next guy. But if we could communicate, or I was looking for something that would make it clear it was you I could not only locate you, but communicate. This could be an argument against my own statements but I don't think it is, simply because, we don't know what aliens look like either. Therefore how would we know when we saw them. We could walk right by, and never know it. This view is also flawed in that it "assumes" extraterrestrial life may be intelligent. Which I would like to believe is possible. If alien life is intelligent, and has equal or greater technological advancement and capabilities, we would most likely assume that if they are carbon based and have the same understanding of the same physics, geology, and chemistry of our universe, maybe just maybe we might meet in the middle. It's a long shot but maybe not as long as we think. It's assuming lots of things. But I can tell you an unarguable fact. We exist. That simple fact when viewed from a perspective outside ourselves and our known universe, it's very easy to see that the question is not IF there is life out there. But that the chances that there is NOT intelligent life out there is so infinitesimally small as to be a non-issue. There are countless billions of stars (not unlike our Sun) in our Milky Way Galaxy alone. 100 billion or more according to some scientific estimates. I cannot fathom that large of a number. 1 billion is 999,999,999 plus 1 times 100 equates to 100 Billion stars! That's how many stars are thought to be in just ONE galaxy in our known universe. There are millions of galaxies out there. Our universe is bigger than we ever thought. My argument is two fold. That life exists here and we are but 1 small solar system in a galaxy that has hundreds of millions if not billions of solar systems. I don't have the mathematical skill necessary to figure the probabilities and the Drake equation is Greek to me. But I'm smart enough to figure out, that if we think we're the only intelligent life form in the universe, we are the most arrogant and ignorant aliens in the universe. My second point is that I don't NEED to know what you look like to know you exist. Your email to me is evidence of life. It's like a footprint in the sand. If you were traveling the universe, and found a footprint on a planet or moon we have never been to, would it not be safe to assume that is proof enough that there is in fact life. The question however wasn't just about evidence. It's about intelligent contact. We as human beings can see and hear, we know enough about the human body, and millions of other life forms to realize that carbon based lifeforms are most likely in our solar system, and quite possibly in other solar systems as well. The laws of physics says so. This is the
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
only 1000 years later, we (now they) send out their own colony ship to repeat the process. Every 1000 years, every planet repeats the procedure with another colony in another direction. In a mere 6,000,000 years, humanity inhabits 5,000,000 planets stretching over the entire Milky Way Galaxy. Obviously, no other species has done this in the last few billion years or they'd be thick as fleas on a dog. Or maybe it's been done over and over, 129 times by 129 intelligent species, and each species has become extinct every single time, utterly vanished and all their vast monuments with them. Maybe we are ready to be Number 130. Maybe not. Maybe every intelligent species destroys itself shortly (a few thousand years) after achieving technological prowess. Get smart. Start fiddling with the Universe. Blow yourself up. Or wipe yourself out. Or poison your world and fall back into savagery. Screw things up beyond fixing. Maybe it's inevitable for every critter with a brain a bit too big for its appetites. Maybe we're just lost in time. No human can even vaguely conceive of what a billion years is like. Even a mere one million years is too great a stretch. A million years ago, there were no humans. 100,000 years ago there were no humans. 10,000 years ago we knew about as much about the Universe beyond the Earth as the dog of today. The Sea of Stars is vast and the Ocean of Time is deep. And we woke up about 1/2500th of the life of the cosmos ago. That we have listened to the stars for any word from another intelligent species for 40-50 years and are desparate because we have no message in our Inbox yet shows we have the attention span of a gnat. Unless, of course, we expected the interstellar equivalent of Top 40 radio. Hold your complaints (and your conclusions) for a century (or two... or five), then get back to me. We'll do lunch. As for "Whoopie! The Universe Is Ours!" I'd hold off a bit before you run the Human Pan-Galactic Federation flag up and salute it. It's a little too early to celebrate. You'll find a lot of interesting discussion of these issues in the URL above at Google Books and this excellent summary of the problem, by David Brin, "The Great Silence" (free download): http://www.brin-l.com/downloads/silence.pdf Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Phil Whitmer" To: Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:17 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted Eric: It's my belief that We Are Alone! There's nobody out there. Life and intelligence is a singularity, a miracle, call it what you will, it only happened once, here on good old Planet Earth. We are the Seed that will spread throughout the Universe by Space Migration. It's our manifest destiny and a matter of survival. Nobody knows how or why it happened, it just did. It was either God or chance, take your pick. There are those who claim otherwise, but they have yet to provide even the thinnest shred of evidence. Those who make extraordinary claims must provide some extraordinary evidence to back it up. And they never do! Not one person abducted by ETs has ever grabbed an alien cellphone or anything else to prove they were aboard an intergalactic space ship. The argument for aliens goes something like this: "Well there's billions and billions of galaxies, one of them has to harbor life. It just has to! You know, a billion monkeys typing for a billion years, and one of them writes a Shakespearean Sonnet or the Book of Genesis, whatever. I think they will just type gibberish for eternity. Life doesn't just pop up all over the place. It can never be created in the laboratory. It's impossible to make live stuff out of dead stuff! (Except for that one time.) This argument puts a lot of faith in Chance and the Laws of Probability. Might as well say Yahweh or Brahma did it. Evolution guided by chance and probability, how is that any different from chaos and total randomness? And why do the aliens always appear in trailer parks and never at Houston Control, NAU, or the JPL? Now if I could see one bit of hard evidence, I would change my mind in a minute. Just my dos pesos, Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Hi Rob, List, Thanks for the reply Hmmm. Where to start... "...Yes, it's a lot of rolls of the dice. But it still does not equate to certainty that the right conditions for life will emerge in more than one location at roughly the same time..." Probability need not be compared to certainty. We're not talking about certainty. You certainly exist physically. Philosophy is not certainty. Philosophically speaking one could argue that I'm not really writing this write now. Logically though I know I am, just as you can reasonably assume that I wrote it because you're reading it. This argument is infinite in it's scope, and our human minds are limitless as to the philosophical axioms we can provide. Our truths are what our personal beliefs make them out to be. And our beliefs are taught and created. They are not natural, nor are they certain. We're talking about probability of intelligence and evidence of life. Not proof of thought or knowledge based on philosophical debate. "...Infinitesimally small and zero are very far apart, mathematically..." I don't really know how small infinitesimal actually is... Mathematically speaking. ;) "...The universe is large (not to mention growing), but it is nevertheless finite..." Really? Is there proof of it's limited scope? We can only see so far... Every few years we can see further. Observationally speaking I'd like to see if someone can prove that there is an end to the the universe. If it is in fact expanding then it's infinite, since we don't know if it will ever stop expanding. WE simply don't know, but we can make educated guesses based on current knowledge. That knowledge though, changes over time. "...and we can only interact with a small fraction of it. So the size of the entire universe isn't really germane to the question -- you must restrict the statistics to our *observable* universe. It's still a huge number of galaxies each containing billions to hundreds of billions of stars" Exactly my point. Even though we have to restrict our knowledge to the observable universe. That's enough for now. We've got the "space" for lack of a better term, to study, and the chances of finding life in the "reachable" universe is much more likely than our slim chance of finding something at our observational limits. My statement: "..."...if we think we're the only intelligent life form in the universe, we are the most arrogant and ignorant aliens in the universe"..." "... I have little doubt of the truth of the last 11 words above. ;-)..." Very true... ;) "...Be that as it may, there is as yet no evidence to show that life exists..." Yet! ;) However, I was referring to the probability of contact with that life and not the probability of life itself. "...However, I would not be in the least bit surprised if evidence *is* found for primitive ET life (within our solar system) sometime this century. That alone would be a remarkable discovery..." Again, I agree that there is ancient life fossilized and preserved in material floating around in our solar system right now. It most likely came from our own planet though when Earth got smacked by ancient comet and asteroid impacts. The holy grail and largest challenge facing science of course is finding life, or evidence of life that's not from our own world. If we even do find a microbial lifeform in a space rock. How are we to know it didn't originate from our own planet? "...As for intelligent ET life, I'm not holding my breath. The number of star systems that are close enough to even know WE exist as an intelligent species number fewer than 20,000. Without our radio/TV/EM noise, there is no way to distinguish our planet as being "noteworthy". ..." Again, it's simply a matter of numbers and being in the rigt place at the right time. Which could be considered luck but I would argue that luck doesn't exist. Preparation proves luck doesn't exist. When we study, research and question our known universe, that's when we learn. Create an hypothesis and prove it scientifically. I only wish I had the tuiition to study at university. I would love it! I would devour the information and knowledge like a kid in a candy store. Our existence in my opinion may not be solid proof of extraterrestrial life, but I can say this unequivocally. Given the infinite vastness of our universe our very existence proves it's possible! The question is not if we will find life, but when it will be found, and what that life form will be. Regards, Eric Matson, Robert D. wrote: Hi Eric, But I can tell you an unarguable fact. We exist. Actually, this "fact" is indeed arguable from a philosophical standpoint, since your proof of existence involves the senses of the very entities you are trying to prove exist. So I'm afraid this sort of circular reasoning does not strictly hold up to logic. We may or may not exist, and there is probably no way to k
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
As always, a great post, Sterling!
> From: sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net
> To: prairiecac...@rtcol.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:04:05 -0500
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
>
> Phil, Eric, List
>
> We are "the only life" in the Universe, you say? Well, Phil,
> The Universe, meaning the part within our particle horizon,
> contains 10,400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 cubic
> light years. That is one hell of a lot of closet space! For it to
> be empty of life is a terrible waste of space, as Carl Sagan said.
>
> There are a vast host of theories offered to explain why we
> haven't found anybody. It is an old paradox. Enrico Fermi, who
> was not only a genius but a very practical man, gave voice to
> the problem in 1950, at a lunchtime conversation with Teller
> and other assorted geniuses, all of whom agreed that there must
> be alien life. Fermi interrupted with, "So? Where are they?" By
> extention, you can ask, "Why haven't we heard from them?"
>
> Because there are so many answers proposed to explain
> the absence of aliens, here are some of those answers in
> shorthand form, but you can figure them out.
>
> They Are Here (The UFO Theories):
> 1 They Are Here and They Call Themselves Hungarians
> 2 They Are Here and Are Meddling in Human Affairs
> 3 They Were Here and Left Evidence of Their Presence
> 4 They Exist and They Are Us - We Are All Aliens!
> 5 The Zoo Scenario: We're Pets.
> 6 The Interdict Scenario: Contact Is Forbidden
> 7 The Planetarium Hypothesis: The Universe Is An Illusion
> 8 They Exist, Are VERY Advanced, and We Call Them God
>
> They Exist But Have Not Yet Communicated ("They're Out There!"):
> 9 The Stars Are Too Far Away
> 10 They Have Not Had Time to Reach Us
> 11 A Percolation Theory Approach -- We're In a Place They Didn't Go To
> 12 Bracewell-von Neumann Probes Are All They Send
> 13 We Are Solar Chauvinists; Their Planets Are Not Like Ours
> 14 They Stay at Home . . .
> 15 . . . and Surf the Net
> 16 They Are Signaling But We Do Not Know How to Listen
> 17 They Are Signaling But We Do Not Know at Which Frequency to Listen
> 18 Our Search Strategy Is Wrong
> 19 The Signal Is Already There in the Data
> 20 We Have Not Listened Long Enough
> 21 Everyone Is Listening, No One Is Transmitting
> 22 Berserkers
> 23 They Have No Desire to Communicate
> 24 They Develop a Different Mathematics
> 25 They Are Calling But We Do Not Recognize the Signal
> 26 They Are Somewhere But the Universe Is Stranger Than We Imagine
> 27 A Choice of Catastrophes: Intelligent Life Always Destroys Itself
> 28 They Hit the Singularity
> 29 Cloudy Skies Are Common
> 30 Infinitely Many ETCs Exist But Only One Within Our Particle Horizon:
> Us
>
> They Do Not Exist ("We're The Only Ones!"):
> 31 The Universe Is Here for Us
> 32 Life Can Have Emerged Only Recently
> 33 Planetary Systems Are Rare
> 34 We Are the First
> 35 Rocky Planets Are Rare
> 36 Continuously Habitable Zones Are Narrow
> 37 Jupiters Are Rare
> 38 Earth Has an Optimal "Pump of Evolution"
> 39 The Galaxy Is a Dangerous Place
> 40 A Planetary System Is a Dangerous Place
> 41 Earth's System of Plate Tectonics Is Unique
> 42 The Moon Is Unique
> 43 Life's Genesis Is Rare
> 44 The Prokaryote-Eukaryote Transition Is Rare
> 45 Toolmaking Species Are Rare
> 46 Technological Progress Is Not Inevitable
> 47 Intelligence at the Human Level Is Rare
> 48 Language Is Unique to Humans
> 49 Science Is Not Inevitable
> *from
> http://books.google.com/books?id=-vZ0BVSHix4C&dq=webb+where+is+everybody%3F+download&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=eDqTSva8GYXWsgOgguXJDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#v=onepage&q=&f=false
>
> Some of these answers have already been shot down
> since the above book listed them. Planets, it turns out are
> NOT rare. Neither are Jupiters.
>
> We are NOT signalling and advertising our presence to
> the Galaxy. Why should anyone else? We (humans) have
> only done so once, when Frank Drake sent a signal to Tau
> Ceti one night for half an hour without consulting anybody.
> Everyone was horrified and jumped all over him. Now, there
> are Federal regs that, in effect, make it a crime to try to talk
> to Alien Civilizations. Too dangerous. So why would we think
> that "they" would signal us? Unless they are so powerful they
> have no reason to be afraid of anybody, in which case I suggest
> we don't answer if they ring our doorbell.
>
> Suppose, just supp
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:04:05 -0500, you wrote: >22 Berserkers Now you're making me want to reread the classics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_%28Saberhagen%29 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:24:10 -0400, you wrote: >Until I see this evidence I have to conclude that on the closest planet that >was once very Earth like, there is no sign of life. If we can't even find >it on Mars, which should have been teeming with life, which should have >left tons of evidence which should have been found by now, then I must >conclude that the Universe is a vast lifeless place. Having a whole two data points, Earth and Mars, given life on Earth and no life on Mars, I must conclude that 50% of all potentially habitable planets have life! __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
The corollary--I ask because they obviously have confederates (if not actual members themselves) on this list-- maybe they can bring us a Mercury sample? Maybe Venus? Phobos? Demos? Saturn ring tektites? I have some glass beads, tin mirrors, iron hatchets to swap. (It worked once before thought it might be worth a try). I agree that even 20 -100 years is unlikely unless we accidentally encounter them in distress, I can't imagine any advanced culture with even the slightest knowledge of our history feeling contact with us as a prudent step in their own history! Ask any surviving indigneous person on any contintent. Of course my dog is arguing that it is already occurred only we are too dim to recognize it. He does this all the time and what does he know? He has not been to college and hasn't read but half the books I have! Elton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Why does everyone always assume aliens are super intelligent? based on the earth model >99.999% of all life in the universe (if there is any other) is actually not intelligent. There is a massive difference between, intelligent life, semi-intelligent life, and basic 'life'. Add up all the life forms that have existed on earth in 3+ billion years (it's a really rather large number), and consider that just 2 or 3 of those trillions and trillions of life forms actually invented a way of communicating over large distances (i.e. using radio waves), and it took billions of years for that to happen, that in itself is a mind boggling ratio. That's exactly why we haven't received any communication from aliens. A) There are [very] few planets with life, far fewer that can actually communicate b) The distances are just too vast. c) Based on our own human civilization we are not even sending out carefully directed messages, just mass radio pollution, - as someone else said maybe the only other intelligent planet is just listening!) My Guess is life is actually very rare, semi intelligent life is very, very, very rare, and intelligent life is just us (maybe plus or minus a remote planet or two somewhere very far away...) Mark CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email i...@ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
ouldn't be enough we
found 20 years ago other planets orbiting other suns...
...well, that all isn't so good for our ego, real masochists we are, if you
ask me.
Well and there are two diametrically opposed reactions.
Some say, please let be someone out there, and let it be microbes,
because that huge mess is to hard and depressing to endure for us alone.
And the others say, please let be there no other life, we had already to
give up so much, don't take away the last thing, which makes us unique and
special, cause else we wouldn't know, what the sense of that all should be.
Or so?
"Life goes on without life"
Sings Martin, the kitchen-philosopher.
PS: And we are always so impatient.
Would be a great success,
if firstly SETI,
will find the Yeti.
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Pete
Pete
Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. August 2009 06:07
An: sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net; prairiecac...@rtcol.com;
meteoritelistmeteoritelist
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
As always, a great post, Sterling!
> From: sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net
> To: prairiecac...@rtcol.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:04:05 -0500
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
>
> Phil, Eric, List
>
> We are "the only life" in the Universe, you say? Well, Phil,
> The Universe, meaning the part within our particle horizon,
> contains 10,400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 cubic
> light years. That is one hell of a lot of closet space! For it to
> be empty of life is a terrible waste of space, as Carl Sagan said.
>
> There are a vast host of theories offered to explain why we
> haven't found anybody. It is an old paradox. Enrico Fermi, who
> was not only a genius but a very practical man, gave voice to
> the problem in 1950, at a lunchtime conversation with Teller
> and other assorted geniuses, all of whom agreed that there must
> be alien life. Fermi interrupted with, "So? Where are they?" By
> extention, you can ask, "Why haven't we heard from them?"
>
> Because there are so many answers proposed to explain
> the absence of aliens, here are some of those answers in
> shorthand form, but you can figure them out.
>
> They Are Here (The UFO Theories):
> 1 They Are Here and They Call Themselves Hungarians
> 2 They Are Here and Are Meddling in Human Affairs
> 3 They Were Here and Left Evidence of Their Presence
> 4 They Exist and They Are Us - We Are All Aliens!
> 5 The Zoo Scenario: We're Pets.
> 6 The Interdict Scenario: Contact Is Forbidden
> 7 The Planetarium Hypothesis: The Universe Is An Illusion
> 8 They Exist, Are VERY Advanced, and We Call Them God
>
> They Exist But Have Not Yet Communicated ("They're Out There!"):
> 9 The Stars Are Too Far Away
> 10 They Have Not Had Time to Reach Us
> 11 A Percolation Theory Approach -- We're In a Place They Didn't Go To
> 12 Bracewell-von Neumann Probes Are All They Send
> 13 We Are Solar Chauvinists; Their Planets Are Not Like Ours
> 14 They Stay at Home . . .
> 15 . . . and Surf the Net
> 16 They Are Signaling But We Do Not Know How to Listen
> 17 They Are Signaling But We Do Not Know at Which Frequency to Listen
> 18 Our Search Strategy Is Wrong
> 19 The Signal Is Already There in the Data
> 20 We Have Not Listened Long Enough
> 21 Everyone Is Listening, No One Is Transmitting
> 22 Berserkers
> 23 They Have No Desire to Communicate
> 24 They Develop a Different Mathematics
> 25 They Are Calling But We Do Not Recognize the Signal
> 26 They Are Somewhere But the Universe Is Stranger Than We Imagine
> 27 A Choice of Catastrophes: Intelligent Life Always Destroys Itself
> 28 They Hit the Singularity
> 29 Cloudy Skies Are Common
> 30 Infinitely Many ETCs Exist But Only One Within Our Particle Horizon:
> Us
>
> They Do Not Exist ("We're The Only Ones!"):
> 31 The Universe Is Here for Us
> 32 Life Can Have Emerged Only Recently
> 33 Planetary Systems Are Rare
> 34 We Are the First
> 35 Rocky Planets Are Rare
> 36 Continuously Habitable Zones Are Narrow
> 37 Jupiters Are Rare
> 38 Earth Has an Optimal "Pump of Evolution"
> 39 The Galaxy Is a Dangerous Place
> 40 A Planetary System Is a Dangerous Place
> 41 Earth's System of Plate Tectonics Is Unique
> 42 The Moon Is Unique
> 43 Life's Genesis Is Rare
> 44 The Prokaryote-Eukaryote Transition Is Rare
> 45 Toolmaking Species Are Rare
> 46 Technological Progress Is Not Inevitable
> 47 Intelligence at the Human Level Is Rare
> 48 Language Is Unique
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
>>That is just hogwash in my opinion---the Drake Equation proves that life >>MUST exist elsewhere. Not quite - Actually most sensible values for the drake equation (and subsequent improved variants) come up with surprisingly low values, given the scale and size of the universe! In fact it's quite easy to get values of 1! yes Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but evidence of absence is evidence of absence! If we search and find no other life in our own solar system, it lowers the odds somewhat, since the earth is so perfect for life, yet the similar sized planets that are very nearby are totally sterile (it seems so far). Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Becky and Kirk Sent: 24 August 2009 22:10 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted That is just hogwash in my opinion---the Drake Equation proves that life MUST exist elsewhere. Even the SETI scientists agree that LIFE is probably abundant! Absence of Evidence is NOT Evidence of Absence!! Kirk.. - Original Message - From: "Phil Whitmer" To: Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:17 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted > Eric: > > It's my belief that We Are Alone! There's nobody out there. Life and > intelligence is a singularity, a miracle, call it what you will, it only > happened once, here on good old Planet Earth. We are the Seed that will > spread throughout the Universe by Space Migration. It's our manifest > destiny and a matter of survival. Nobody knows how or why it happened, it > just did. It was either God or chance, take your pick. There are those > who claim otherwise, but they have yet to provide even the thinnest shred > of evidence. Those who make extraordinary claims must provide some > extraordinary evidence to back it up. And they never do! Not one person > abducted by ETs has ever grabbed an alien cellphone or anything else to > prove they were aboard an intergalactic space ship. > > The argument for aliens goes something like this: "Well there's billions > and billions of galaxies, one of them has to harbor life. It just has to! > You know, a billion monkeys typing for a billion years, and one of them > writes a Shakespearean Sonnet or the Book of Genesis, whatever. I think > they will just type gibberish for eternity. Life doesn't just pop up all > over the place. It can never be created in the laboratory. It's impossible > to make live stuff out of dead stuff! (Except for that one time.) > > This argument puts a lot of faith in Chance and the Laws of Probability. > Might as well say Yahweh or Brahma did it. Evolution guided by chance and > probability, how is that any different from chaos and total randomness? > > And why do the aliens always appear in trailer parks and never at Houston > Control, NAU, or the JPL? > > Now if I could see one bit of hard evidence, I would change my mind in a > minute. > > Just my dos pesos, > > Phil Whitmer > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email i...@ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Drake says: N = R x Fp X ne X fl X Fi X fc X L my reckoning: 1 = 1 X 30% X 0.1 X 40% X 40% X 29% X 1000 Where R = The number of stars in a similar class to ours born each year Fp = Percentage of stars that for planets Ne = Number of planets for each star that have the right conditions for life Fl = Percentage of planets with suitable conditions for life to exist, which start life Fi = Percentage of planets with life that go on to develop intelligent life Fc = Percentage intelligent planets that develop communication technology L = Number of years each civilization survives for (in a communicable state) :. So no supprise we 'aint heard from no ET... (and imho, I'm being fairly optimistic about planets forming life supporting conditions) Mark > Eric: > > It's my belief that We Are Alone! There's nobody out there. Life and > intelligence is a singularity, a miracle, call it what you will, it only > happened once, here on good old Planet Earth. We are the Seed that will > spread throughout the Universe by Space Migration. It's our manifest > destiny and a matter of survival. Nobody knows how or why it happened, it > just did. It was either God or chance, take your pick. There are those > who claim otherwise, but they have yet to provide even the thinnest shred > of evidence. Those who make extraordinary claims must provide some > extraordinary evidence to back it up. And they never do! Not one person > abducted by ETs has ever grabbed an alien cellphone or anything else to > prove they were aboard an intergalactic space ship. > > The argument for aliens goes something like this: "Well there's billions > and billions of galaxies, one of them has to harbor life. It just has to! > You know, a billion monkeys typing for a billion years, and one of them > writes a Shakespearean Sonnet or the Book of Genesis, whatever. I think > they will just type gibberish for eternity. Life doesn't just pop up all > over the place. It can never be created in the laboratory. It's impossible > to make live stuff out of dead stuff! (Except for that one time.) > > This argument puts a lot of faith in Chance and the Laws of Probability. > Might as well say Yahweh or Brahma did it. Evolution guided by chance and > probability, how is that any different from chaos and total randomness? > > And why do the aliens always appear in trailer parks and never at Houston > Control, NAU, or the JPL? > > Now if I could see one bit of hard evidence, I would change my mind in a > minute. > > Just my dos pesos, > > Phil Whitmer > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email i...@ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email i...@ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
This is an urban legend. Walt Disney was cremated. Andre Bordeleau From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] on behalf of Phil Whitmer [prairiecac...@rtcol.com] Sent: August 25, 2009 1:58 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted Darren: That's funny! But realistically, the percentage is much lower if you figure in the complete lack of evidence for life on the Moon, Mars, all the other planets and their moons, the Sun, all the asteroids, all the comets, and any other stuff that might be hanging around the edges of the Solar System. If there is no evidence for life anywhere in the entire Solar System, (that I know of), even on such a life friendly place as Mars, then maybe life doesn't just pop into existence just because conditions are right. Maybe it is just a one time thing. I wish I could afford to be cryogenically frozen like Walt Disney and wake up in a few million years to find out! Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Seems to me that the Mars rovers have pretty much proved that at one time Mars probably supported life based on their findings and observations---and that is right in our own back yard! Kirk. - Original Message - From: "Phil Whitmer" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:24 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted To all listees pondering the Eternal Verities: Just because the Universe is really big is not an argument that there is Life out there. The Ocean is really big, but that's not an argument for the existence of a Loch Ness monster or any other species of pleisosaur. I have to actually see a unicorn before I'll believe that they exist. I'm Old School, I have to actually see a visible light photograph of just one of these supposed googols of Earth like planets. All I've heard is pure speculation, forumulae, projections of our loneliness, (there has to be someone out there!) extrapolations, computer models, mathematical probabilities, etc. Still waiting on the evidence! Not proof, just a simple tiny shred of evidence. One simple SOS in Morse Code on any one of the billions and billions of channels monitered by Seti. One peer reviewed, in focus, well lit, properly exposed photograph of an actual flying saucer. One little tiny fossil in a meteorite. Anything! Closer to home, I'm still waiting for anything at all from the Mars probes. Just one incontrovertible shred of evidence where all the scientists go: "Yes, there's life on Mars!" Until I see this evidence I have to conclude that on the closest planet that was once very Earth like, there is no sign of life. If we can't even find it on Mars, which should have been teeming with life, which should have left tons of evidence which should have been found by now, then I must conclude that the Universe is a vast lifeless place. The only life that I can verify by empirical evidence is right here on this planet. You can do all the thought experiments you want, in your imagination you can populate the entire vast Universe with bacteria, or Star Trek/Star Wars like critters, whatever you like, it's all pure speculation. All that we know for sure is that is Life here on Earth. Plenty of it. The problem is nobody knows where it came from. Nobody is really sure even what it is. Can someone tell me what the Life Force is that differentiates living things from inanimate objects? Is it Chi?, Ki? Prana? What the heck is it? Did it originate here on Earth. (I think it did.) If it did, then how did that first coacervate of organic molecules become alive in the first place? How did it know how to assemble a strand of self replicating RNA? At exactly what point did the Life Force enter this assemblage of non living stuff? Don't even get me started on the Miracle of Intelligence/Consciousness! As if anyone knows what that little voice in your head is! This should be pretty simple stuff to figure out, even for a young, dumb species like homo sapiens. After all, it happened right here on our home planet just a few billion years ago right under our noses. People will tell you otherwise, but we don't have a clue as to what life is or how it got started. Until these basic questions about the origins of life on our own planet are answered I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves by believing in aliens. Little green men or tall gray men, I have to see one to believe in them. Dos mas pesos, Phil Whitmer Nota bene: Of course I could be completely wrong and Dr. Edgar Mitchell could be completely right! __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Phil, > Little green men or tall gray men, I have to see one to believe in them. Here is the evidence you seek: http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/steve-arnold-with-alien.jpg I hope that clears things up for you. Mike Hankey http://www.mikesastrophotos.com On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 1:24 AM, Phil Whitmer wrote: > To all listees pondering the Eternal Verities: > > Just because the Universe is really big is not an argument that there is > Life out there. The Ocean is really big, but that's not an argument for the > existence of a Loch Ness monster or any other species of pleisosaur. I > have to actually see a unicorn before I'll believe that they exist. I'm Old > School, I have to actually see a visible light photograph of just one of > these supposed googols of Earth like planets. All I've heard is pure > speculation, forumulae, projections of our loneliness, (there has to be > someone out there!) extrapolations, computer models, mathematical > probabilities, etc. Still waiting on the evidence! Not proof, just a > simple tiny shred of evidence. One simple SOS in Morse Code on any one of > the billions and billions of channels monitered by Seti. One peer reviewed, > in focus, well lit, properly exposed photograph of an actual flying saucer. > One little tiny fossil in a meteorite. Anything! Closer to home, I'm still > waiting for anything at all from the Mars probes. Just one incontrovertible > shred of evidence where all the scientists go: "Yes, there's life on Mars!" > Until I see this evidence I have to conclude that on the closest planet that > was once very Earth like, there is no sign of life. If we can't even find > it on Mars, which should have been teeming with life, which should have > left tons of evidence which should have been found by now, then I must > conclude that the Universe is a vast lifeless place. > > The only life that I can verify by empirical evidence is right here on this > planet. You can do all the thought experiments you want, in your imagination > you can populate the entire vast Universe with bacteria, or Star Trek/Star > Wars like critters, whatever you like, it's all pure speculation. All that > we know for sure is that is Life here on Earth. Plenty of it. The problem > is nobody knows where it came from. Nobody is really sure even what it is. > Can someone tell me what the Life Force is that differentiates living > things from inanimate objects? Is it Chi?, Ki? Prana? What the heck is it? > Did it originate here on Earth. (I think it did.) If it did, then how did > that first coacervate of organic molecules become alive in the first place? > How did it know how to assemble a strand of self replicating RNA? At exactly > what point did the Life Force enter this assemblage of non living stuff? > Don't even get me started on the Miracle of Intelligence/Consciousness! As > if anyone knows what that little voice in your head is! > > This should be pretty simple stuff to figure out, even for a young, dumb > species like homo sapiens. After all, it happened right here on our home > planet just a few billion years ago right under our noses. People will tell > you otherwise, but we don't have a clue as to what life is or how it got > started. Until these basic questions about the origins of life on our own > planet are answered I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves by > believing in aliens. Little green men or tall gray men, I have to see one to > believe in them. > > Dos mas pesos, > > Phil Whitmer > > Nota bene: Of course I could be completely wrong and Dr. Edgar Mitchell > could be completely right! > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Phil, Here is the proof you are looking for: http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/proof-aliens-exist.jpg Mike Hankey http://www.mikesastrophotos.com On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Phil Whitmer wrote: > Mike: OK, now I believe in the tall gray men from outer space men, now > prove to me the existence of little green men! > > LOL, > Phil > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted-- books
I've recently been downloading science books from a huge number available on a web site (http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/science_books) and have picked out some that are either directly about the possibilities of extraterrestrial life (both pro and con) or are about exoplanets in general. I've archived them together here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/dyap00 Of course, you probably won't want to read whole books from your computer screen, but these can give you a sampling for what you can look for in a book store or library (toss a few coins the author's way, I'm sure they need it.) List of books in the archive: A Decade of Extrasolar Planets Around Normal Stars Exoplanets- Detection, Formation, Properties, Habitability Extrasolar Planets - Formation, Detection and Dynamics Extrasolar Planets Fitness of the Cosmos for Life Habitable Planets for Man If the Universe is Teeming With Aliens Where Is Everybody? Just 6 Numbers-- the Forces that Shape the Universe Life Everywhere Life in the Universe Lonely Planets-- The Natural Philosophy of Alien Life Prebiotic Evolution and Astrobiology Rare Earth-- Why Complex Life is Uncommon in the Universe Terraforming-- the Creating of Habitible Worlds The Crowded Universe-The Search for Living Planets The New Worlds Extrasolar Planets The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence The Search for Life Continued __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
> 47 Intelligence at the Human Level Is Rare Yes, it seems to be pretty rare on earth as well __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
> From: Becky and Kirk > Seems to me that the Mars rovers have > pretty much proved that at one time Mars probably supported > life based on their findings and observations Really? I don't see that at all. Maybe it was the way you worded it but it being damper there 4Ga ago than it is now does not consitute proof of supporting life IMHO. Rob McC __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Hello all, ok I already saw little green men. Also red ones. They seem to be intelligent as they predict whether cars on the street will stop or not. Oh, it seems I saw them at traffic lights So maybe aliens who look at us will have a different point of view what life is. However, I do much agree to Sterlings post. BTW On spiegel.de I found this http://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Inc-UFO-01-Detector/dp/B000796XYQ/ Joachim __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
> > >>That is just hogwash in my opinion---the Drake > Equation proves that > life > >>MUST exist elsewhere. > ERRMM! So what happens to the result if just one of the many factors happens to have a value of zero? __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Rob, Astronomers have now concluded that there are over 100 Trillion galaxies in the known Universe with EACH galaxy averaging over 1 billion stars---and this is an estimate!! You seem to be underestimating the size of our Universe. There is no way any of Drake's final values could be zero. Do you disagree with the SETI scientists and astronomers and the findings thru the HUBBLE telescope?? Kirk.. - Original Message - From: "Rob McCafferty" To: Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted >>That is just hogwash in my opinion---the Drake Equation proves that life >>MUST exist elsewhere. ERRMM! So what happens to the result if just one of the many factors happens to have a value of zero? __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:40:09 -0400, you wrote: >The Drake Equation is a prime example of mental masuturbation. It proves >absolutely nothing. How can an equation prove anything when none of the >variables are known with any certainity? As Rob points out, one zero >nullifies the whole silly thing. How about Ne; the number of known Earth >like planets supporting life=0. Nope, the number of known Earthlike planets supporting life=1. The Earth is remarkably Earthlike. See: http://xkcd.com/384/ >Crichton summed it up best at a lecture at Caltech : Crichton? You mean Michael Crichton? The same Michael Crichton who made sience the boogeyman in all of his books, and scientists as evil, amoral Dr. Frankensteins who Get Theirs In The End? Michael Crichton has done nothing but harm to the name of science and scientists. I credit Michael Chrichton as far as I can throw his casket. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Hi Phil, List, Humanity's arrogance is only outweighed by it's ignorance. You say NO... I say prove it. I say possible... You say not! There's more evidence that there IS than proof there's NOT. A closed mind knows nothing and agrees with nothing but itself... An open mind however realizes that possibilities are endless. It's a damn good thing you weren't one of the Wright brothers. ;) Or DaVinci, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Tesla, Edison, Plato, Alexander The Great, Hannibal, Constantine, Archimedes, Fibonacci, Pythagoras, Herodotus, Lincoln, Kennedy, Washington, Roddenberry, Lucas, Spielberg, or countless others. Hundreds and thousands of other very important people to the evolution of human thought and innovation, philosophically, militarily, scientifically, and theoretically have contributed greatly to the advancement of humanity. With curiosity and the gall to actually think openly without boundaries we wouldn't be able to believe we could fly, or give serious thought to the possibility of life elsewhere. You're missing the whole REASON behind the belief which drives the study that ultimately results in discovery. How dare we actually think... ;) How silly of us humans... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA Spacifieds.com P.S. "... I can make up an equation that proves the existence of mermaids, bigfoot, Nessie, unicorns, dragons,..." "...'ll write a formula to prove it's existence..." Go for it! It would be an exercise for the unimaginable. ;) Phil Whitmer wrote: The Drake Equation is a prime example of mental masuturbation. It proves absolutely nothing. How can an equation prove anything when none of the variables are known with any certainity? As Rob points out, one zero nullifies the whole silly thing. How about Ne; the number of known Earth like planets supporting life=0. If you want dumb equations, the creationists have a bunch of them that proves there is exactly one planet that supports life. I can make up an equation that proves the existence of mermaids, bigfoot, Nessie, unicorns, dragons, what imaginary being do you want to believe in? I'll write a formula to prove it's existence. I'll be easy, because I already know that life begets life. The Drake Equation misses the key concept in the alien debate; mainly how does abiogenesis occur? How does non living matter become alive? Once we figure out the mechanics of this most basic problem, then we can extrapolate about whether this seemingly miraculous event could happen more than once. If you're going to believe in spontaneous generation on other planets, you had better understand how it happened here first. Someone has to explain to me how those left handed isomer amino acids from meteorites organized themselves into living, self replicating DNA. (See this thread is related to meteorites!) Crichton summed it up best at a lecture at Caltech : The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. [...] As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from "billions and billions" to zero. An expression that can mean anything means nothing. Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless... And puhleez, don't give me that stupid absence of evidence argument, it didn't hold water when Rumsfeld used it for imaginary WMDs, and it doesn't justify the belief in phantasmagorical alien creatures. Mental masturbation is fun, but don't confuse it with real science! From the Urban Dictionary: Mental masturbation: 1. The act of engaging in useless yet intellectually stimulating conversation, usually as an excuse to avoid taking constructive action in your life. 2. The act of engaging in intelligent and interesting conversation purely for the enjoyment of your own greatness and individuality. Subjects range from obscure lp's to cultural movements in preindustrial societies. Either delivered through grand monlogues or subtle conversation orientation, it links large words and random references resulting in nothing acually being communicated. 3. Overly intensive self gratifying procrastination, thought and contemplation for a subject not necessarily warranting such effort. 4. The pretense of superior knowledge or intelligence by claiming conjecture, theory, feeling or opinion as fact. 5. The act of engaging in impractical/nonproductive mental exercise / thinkings / writings / etc., through which a practitioner only comforts oneself mentally. Such acts don't lead to any constructive results what so ever in the real world; some might even imagine oneself being transformed into superman, or simply the opposite sex, etc. In short, it's just bs/crap. Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/lis
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
"Let's use this line of reasoning: the oceans are really really big, not infinite, but really big. At the bottom of the Marianas Trench lives a society of mermaids, mermen and sea serpents. How do I know this? Because the oceans are really big!" That spoofed proof by contradiction is flawed for my taste . Mermaids and mermen have not been found in exactly one place initially, and initial conditions matter. Life exists, even if we could only do a better job defining it. Furthermore, Sea Serpents are common, maybe not fitting a weirdly crafted fantasy definition, but definitely present IMO. And the Mariana Trench is not so huge, it's smaller than Missouri. Our curiosity to do thought experiments would seem peculiar and useful to humans unless overused to the point of scientific blindness. But even the blindsighted may have more insight than the career skeptics enforcing equally unsubstantiated views (the "Show-Me State" mentality) and offering little except their advice and demanding solutions in return (Show me burnt dinosaurs!). Luckily, it takes all kinds. While skepticism is crucially important, trial and error is, too. Luckily for us there is no skeptic at every juncture of evolution shooting down ideas before testing. Just look at your own attempt to refute Drake's equation and reliance on the urban dictionary to impose a point. The ability to conceptualize and frame a problem mentally has resulted in advan cement since before the prehistoric rotating bone in 2001: a Space Odyssey. Translation: IMO, flatly calling the equation BS is wrong, questioning the assumptions of those who religiously preach it and slapping them in the face every now and then is fine. Well, if the Universe were infinite, and a Drake factor 0, then ∞ * 0 = 1, so I guess that settles that, life is unique :-) Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Phil Whitmer To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Aug 28, 2009 11:01 am Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted Kirk, We all know the Universe is really, really big. Maybe even infinite, maybe infinite plus one, maybe even double dog infinite. What does that have to do with abiogenisis? Why don't you tell me how life got started here on Earth, (that would be real science), then we'll move on to whether or not aliens exist. (That would be idle speculation). Let's use this line of reasoning: the oceans are really really big, not infinite, but really big. At the bottom of the Marianas Trench lives a society of mermaids, mermen and sea serpents. How do I know this? Because the oceans are really big! The Earth is also really big, so somewhere on the vast Tibetan Plateau lives: Bigfoot! Size doesn't matter, it's not a valid argument. Beliefs without evidence can take you anywhere you want to go. G hosts? Doppelgangers, why not? Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list meteorite-l...@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:49:07 -0400, you wrote: >still could not figure out something so simple as how abiogenisis actually >works. A simple basic question: how does non living matter become alive? You seem really fixated on this point. Are you, I ask out of curiosity, working from a religious basis that assumes life was "created" and we are the only life in the universe? Because, otherwise, I see no reason to be so sure that abiogenisis is such an impossibility. We know that, on the only world that we know of that currently has plentiful liquid water and abundant energy, life not only started, but it seems to have started as soon as it was possible-- there has been life on Earth for most of it's history. Now, which seems to be a more rational inferance based on that? One, that abiogenesis is so improbably rare that it has been unlikely to have taken place more than once in all the vastness of the universe, or two, that "life" is a naturally-occuring chemical process that can happen any time the conditions are suitable? Simply knowing the exact steps by which abiogenesis could/probably did take place (which will probably be known within a few decades) doesn't come any closer to "proving the existance of aliens" than not knowing it-- because we still wouldn't not know the exact chemical mixture of the oceans of other Earth-like planets. You aren't arguing that there is likely only one rocky planet covered with liquid water in all of the universe, are you? __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Dear Norbert, well stated. As a scientist and the retired Chief of the Exobiology Branch at NASA Ames, where much work has and is being done on ET organic chemistry, I agree with your assessment, although much of the cosmogenic organics are abiotic. However, with the right environment the abiotic " soup" could lead to biotic-life building blocks. Remember, Harold Urey and others did this back in the 1950's. Ted On 8/28/09 9:46 AM, "Norbert Classen" wrote: > Dear Phil, and Exobio-Scepticists, > > I wouldn't give too much on whatever Crichton has to say - how about doing > some real homework, and studying books written by scientists first? Read, > e.g., "Vital Dust" by Nobel Prize winner Christian de Duve who answers most > of the basic questions on how "it happened here first". De Duve, who's > everything else but a romantic dreamer and certainly not the kind of guy > who's wasting his time with mental masturbation, comes to the conclusion > that life must be kind of a "cosmic imperative" instead of a weird > exception. But do me a favour, don't use the shortcut, i.e. don't Google it > up, and avoid reading online summaries on Wikipedia and other sites - read > the book from page 1 to 543, it's really worth the effort. > > After that you might want to re-read the studies on Murchison and other > carbonaceous chondrites which do not only prove to contain a smorgasbord of > various cosmogenic amino acids, but also nucleobases (the building blocks of > RNA and DNA), water, and many other ingredients of life (as we know it), in > addition to all the astronomic studies about planetary nebulae, the presence > of water, PAH's, methane, and other carbon-based molecules in protoplanetary > discs etc. pp. ... > > If you're still sceptic after all of that you might want to take a final > step, look into the mirror and ask yourself if it's just your own bias that > stops you from seing the obvious. I hope you don't take this as an offense > as it sure isn't ment as one, but as someone who studied philosophical > anthropology and the history of science it always takes me by surprise how > many educated people don't understand the full consequences of the > Copernican Shift. Don't get me wrong, of course they do "know" that Earth > isn't the flat center of our solar system, galaxy, or universe. However, > most did just exchange their geocentric view for a slightly modified > anthropocentric view where man is still that special, unique, and most > exquisite being: the Pride of Creation. And, of course, that also requires > that life is unique, and restricted to that small planet Earth: the Cradle > of Humanity. But, how scientific is that? It's pure human hubris, pitiful > self-importance, IMHO. > > Don't get me wrong: I don't believe in aliens contacting us anytime soon - > this is a enterily different affair and mainly a matter of time and space - > but to deny the probability of life somewhere else in the universe is as > stupid as the idea that planets around other stars are rare and exceptional > (something that was often believed up to the late 20th century, also for > obvious reasons), and as short sighted as Newton's assertion that meteorites > can't come from space. Today we do know better. Don't we? > > My two CM2's, > Norbert Classen > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Phil > Whitmer > Gesendet: Freitag, 28. August 2009 16:40 > An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted > > The Drake Equation is a prime example of mental masuturbation. It proves > absolutely nothing. How can an equation prove anything when none of the > variables are known with any certainity? As Rob points out, one zero > nullifies the whole silly thing. How about Ne; the number of known Earth > like planets supporting life=0. If you want dumb equations, the > creationists have a bunch of them that proves there is exactly one planet > that supports life. I can make up an equation that proves the existence of > mermaids, bigfoot, Nessie, unicorns, dragons, what imaginary being do you > want to believe in? I'll write a formula to prove it's existence. I'll be > easy, because I already know that life begets life. The Drake Equation > misses the key concept in the alien debate; mainly how does abiogenesis > occur? How does non living matter become alive? Once we figure out the > mechanics of this most basic problem, then we can extrapolate about whether > this seemingly miracu
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:07:32 -0400, you wrote: >My basic point is, humans are too stupid to figure out how life got started >here on Earth. Now that, is unmitigated BULLSHIT. The fact that a question has not been fully answered yet does NOT necessiate that a question is unanserable. More is becoming known about how life could have begun with each passing year-- and will likely have good, solid answers in time. Science is still young-- the wonder isn't that there are still questions for which answers have not been found, but that so many answers HAVE been found in the past 2 or 3 centuries. Maybe YOU are too stupid to figure it out, but that doesn't mean that there aren't smarter people than you working on it. >there is other life that spontaneously generated on some other planet long >ago and in a faraway galaxy. Are you denying that spontaneous generation happened on Earth? Because it seems pretty clear that you are making religious arguments, not scientific ones. You seem to think that you are being rational and scientific, but you aren't. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:13:40 -0400, you wrote: >nothing but conjecture based on beliefs. Your belief in alien life forms >sounds religious to me, like you have faith in something you know ain't so. I don't have "belief in alien life forms"-- I simply do not have a conviction that the conditions under which life can form are so utterly rare that there will not be more than one example in all of the universe. > >The probabality of life popping into existence out of non living matter is >the smallest unit of measure above zero. Just think about it, it's not >alive, poof!, it's alive. This only proves the profound depth of your ignorance. Are you really suggesting that people think a full, living cell spontaneously generated? More than ever, I'm thinking you are a creationist. You sure use plenty of their retoric. "Life" is a fuzzy term-- it is easy to look at extremes and pick if they are alive or they are not. An elephant? Alive. A brick? Not alive. But there is not a sharp transition between life and non-life. Is a virus alive, or not? There are well educated scientists who argue on both sides of that. What about a prion? It is capable of converting other proteins to it's own malformed shape. Is a prion alive? You want to understand what scientists think about the origin of life? Stop your own mental masturbating and pick up a few books, because you are sorely ignorant in the area. I will ask you point blank, and if you don't answer, then you have answered it with your silence: Do you think life began naturally on Earth, or do you believe it was "created?" Because, if the latter, there is no longer room for science-based discussion. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Come on, Darren. Phil only has to return: Science is the new religion. And he wouldn't be that wrong. "Nobody knows what life is" he writes. Big thing, if I ask my cat, she says: eating, sleeping and a sparklet of magic, stupid! If there is life out there, I rather would ask, will we ever know about? Gosh, I read of travels to other stars, of mankind colonizing other worlds... My doubts I have. Our own experiences are, that so far no culture or civilization existed long enough, to be able to manage such gigantic endeavours. Some hundred thousands years we were sitting in trees, in the plains, in caves. Raise and fall. How long lasted Babylon, Egypt, how long the Roman Empire... USA, French Revolution just happened 200 years ago. Civilizations grow and they fall in pieces. Even in the so short history of human existence they were so far nothing more than flickering bubbles. Wherefrom that optimism? Homo erectus? 2.000.000 my? Sapiens 120.000 years? And we have 50 years of television advertising. And half of us are still sitting in caves. I guess, we are somewhat to impatient, aren't we? Let's meet in 300,000 years, then we can continue to call us names like creationist or conehead. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Darren Garrison Gesendet: Freitag, 28. August 2009 21:37 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:13:40 -0400, you wrote: >nothing but conjecture based on beliefs. Your belief in alien life forms >sounds religious to me, like you have faith in something you know ain't so. I don't have "belief in alien life forms"-- I simply do not have a conviction that the conditions under which life can form are so utterly rare that there will not be more than one example in all of the universe. > >The probabality of life popping into existence out of non living matter is >the smallest unit of measure above zero. Just think about it, it's not >alive, poof!, it's alive. This only proves the profound depth of your ignorance. Are you really suggesting that people think a full, living cell spontaneously generated? More than ever, I'm thinking you are a creationist. You sure use plenty of their retoric. "Life" is a fuzzy term-- it is easy to look at extremes and pick if they are alive or they are not. An elephant? Alive. A brick? Not alive. But there is not a sharp transition between life and non-life. Is a virus alive, or not? There are well educated scientists who argue on both sides of that. What about a prion? It is capable of converting other proteins to it's own malformed shape. Is a prion alive? You want to understand what scientists think about the origin of life? Stop your own mental masturbating and pick up a few books, because you are sorely ignorant in the area. I will ask you point blank, and if you don't answer, then you have answered it with your silence: Do you think life began naturally on Earth, or do you believe it was "created?" Because, if the latter, there is no longer room for science-based discussion. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Blah blah blah---OK---we agree to disagree! No one knows for sure butsimple life probably started as a soup on Earth made from carbon and amino acids being brought here by comets, asteroids & meteors. The rest is the handi-work of progressive evolution, Earth energies (lightning) and the Divine! That is what I believe! Try to prove differently! Also---no one knows the truth about the singularity or what existed before the BIG BANG. Do you? Open your mind man! Kirk - Original Message - From: "Phil Whitmer" To: Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:40 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted The Drake Equation is a prime example of mental masuturbation. It proves absolutely nothing. How can an equation prove anything when none of the variables are known with any certainity? As Rob points out, one zero nullifies the whole silly thing. How about Ne; the number of known Earth like planets supporting life=0. If you want dumb equations, the creationists have a bunch of them that proves there is exactly one planet that supports life. I can make up an equation that proves the existence of mermaids, bigfoot, Nessie, unicorns, dragons, what imaginary being do you want to believe in? I'll write a formula to prove it's existence. I'll be easy, because I already know that life begets life. The Drake Equation misses the key concept in the alien debate; mainly how does abiogenesis occur? How does non living matter become alive? Once we figure out the mechanics of this most basic problem, then we can extrapolate about whether this seemingly miraculous event could happen more than once. If you're going to believe in spontaneous generation on other planets, you had better understand how it happened here first. Someone has to explain to me how those left handed isomer amino acids from meteorites organized themselves into living, self replicating DNA. (See this thread is related to meteorites!) Crichton summed it up best at a lecture at Caltech : The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. [...] As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from "billions and billions" to zero. An expression that can mean anything means nothing. Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless... And puhleez, don't give me that stupid absence of evidence argument, it didn't hold water when Rumsfeld used it for imaginary WMDs, and it doesn't justify the belief in phantasmagorical alien creatures. Mental masturbation is fun, but don't confuse it with real science! From the Urban Dictionary: Mental masturbation: 1. The act of engaging in useless yet intellectually stimulating conversation, usually as an excuse to avoid taking constructive action in your life. 2. The act of engaging in intelligent and interesting conversation purely for the enjoyment of your own greatness and individuality. Subjects range from obscure lp's to cultural movements in preindustrial societies. Either delivered through grand monlogues or subtle conversation orientation, it links large words and random references resulting in nothing acually being communicated. 3. Overly intensive self gratifying procrastination, thought and contemplation for a subject not necessarily warranting such effort. 4. The pretense of superior knowledge or intelligence by claiming conjecture, theory, feeling or opinion as fact. 5. The act of engaging in impractical/nonproductive mental exercise / thinkings / writings / etc., through which a practitioner only comforts oneself mentally. Such acts don't lead to any constructive results what so ever in the real world; some might even imagine oneself being transformed into superman, or simply the opposite sex, etc. In short, it's just bs/crap. Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:59:47 -0400, you wrote: I will not give you any more of my time other than to say that you are very, very poorly educated in both biological sciences and rational thinking. You think in simple, simplistic black and white terms (life is all or nothing) and you are blind to the fact that your rants about "life being almost impossible" have absolutely no more sound basis than claims that "life is a common byproduct of a wet, warm world." You take the fact that solid answers have not yet been reached based on limited data from early knowledge in a young science and draw the irrational conclusion that no answers will ever or can ever be reached. You deliberately distort the reasoning of your "opponents" on the issue in the attempt to construct a straw man that you can strike down. Your thinking is irrational, illogical, and most likely unsalvageable, and I don't think you will have to worry about anyone else attempting to argue with you. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Phil, Urey's experiment was fewer than 60 years ago and we've barely scratched the surface on Mars. You seem willing to give up so easily. Science succeeds through persistence and persistence takes time. How many centuries has humankind wanted to fly? Hundreds, thousands of years? It finally happened in the 20th century. Back in the 1700s there were astronomers who said we'd never, ever be able to learn the composition of the stars. The stars were so far away that they'd be forever inaccessible. Let's take your perspective and apply it to someone from that era. They may very well have said something like this: "I know you think it's possible to determine a star's composition but show me just one shred of evidence, one bit of information and I'll believe you. In the meantime, as far as I'm concerned, the only things we'll ever be to analyze are what I can see and touch here on planet Earth." That pillar of certainly fell with a thud when the first spectroscope was invented. There are many things that once seemed impossible to understand that are now commonplace and predictable. Rather than touting how ignorant science is on the subject, it might help to keep an open mind. Even now scientists have seen short strands of RNA molecules make copies of themselves in the lab. With time and the development of new tools and approaches to the issue of life's origin, we may soon have an answer. In the meantime, making a big deal of our current ignorance comes off -- at least from my perspective -- as gloating and self-serving. Best regards, Bob On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Phil Whitmer wrote: > Hi Darren, > > I'm back to join the circle jerk! Please note: the following are just my > personal beliefs and I will completely recant it all upon being provided > credible evidence that I'm full of hooey. > > > > So I'm a stupid Yahwehist? You're telling me to believe in alien beings > that live up in the heavens without providing a single shred of evidence > for their existence? Are they like angels? I'm not making any extraordinary > claims about the existence of any kind of god or other extraterrestrial life > form, as you are. Martin hit the nail on the head, you're trying to convert > me to your religion. Just have faith, you say, you don't need evidence, you > backward tribal animist ancestor worshipper. Come join the New Religion! > Believe all it has to say, even when it oversteps its limits. > > Show me some evidence I say, and I get the freakin' Drake Equation?!? > Believe in the Drake Equation, for it is Holy Writ chime in the chorus of > True Believers. It surely proves there is life out there. The Drake Equation > is some ink scribbled on some paper, it's not magical runes. The Book of > Genesis is some ink scribbled on paper. I have faith in neither one. I fart > in the general direction of the drake equation. You want a real equation? > How about E=mc2. Now that one's got some gut to it! __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Phil, List, Your skepticism is only outweighed by your unbound and pure contempt for anything other than your own absolute belief in nothing but what you see before your eyes. The only problem is your eyes are slammed shut! You're not a doubter or a skeptic. Doubters and skeptics believe in shades of gray. Yes is white, No is black, and doubt is somewhere in between but leaves room for anything on either end of the spectrum. Wait... The visible spectrum isn't really shades of gray at all is it? It's color. It's wonderful, joyous, vivid and absolutely beautiful color of almost infinite shades and tones. On either end of that spectrum are waves of invisible energy that is unseen yet can be felt and measured. These waves extend far beyond the visible, and even beyond the measurable. Though ALL humans on this earth can see this visible light. Those who can't are blind or have their eyes clamped shut. You've been hoodwinked by your own closed mind. To your comment regarding life in the universe. "...This unbelievable singularity only happened once as far as I can see..." How I ask, do you know this when in fact your eyes don't see and your ears don't hear? Open your eyes... Open your mind... Listen... Learn. You don't know it all. Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Phil, Back in the olden days (pre-18th century), meteorites from the sun was not a leading theory. They were generally understood as being formed by things like fire, earthly vapors and lightning. This is yet another example of how ignorance was gradually transformed into understanding by quizzical folks like Chladni and Howard. They tackled the question of meteorite composition with open minds and chemical analysis. Also, while meteorites contain many elements found in the sun, they lack hydrogen gas, which comprises 94 percent of the sun's material. By no means were people "dumber" in the past. Their attempts to solve the problems of their time got us to where we are today. Let's hope the humans of the year 3000 will look back on our efforts with some measure of appreciation as well. Bob On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Phil Whitmer wrote: > Bob: > > What do you mean when you say there was no evidence for the composition of > the stars? It was right there in the form of meteorites, but people then > were a lot dumber than today. All those dummies had to do was analyse a > meteorite and they would know what the sun was made of. This isn't that far > fetched, because back in the olden days a leading theory of meteorites was > that they were thrown off the sun. So that one's pretty obvious. > > > > And as far as Urey's Earth like planet is concerned, well guess what? It's > right next door and it's as dead as a doornail. Unless I missed the > headlines?: News Flash: Life Found on Mars! The absence of life on Mars is > a huge blow to the quasi religious belief in aliens. > > Oh, and I'm being self serving by pointing out the stupidity of mankind? > Compare the War Department budget with NASA's. I rest my case. I'm just > saying that people shouldn't go around saying they know what they don't > know. Again, I'm not the one positing the existence of phantasmagorical > outer space aliens. I know what I don't know, (Did Rumsfeld say that?) In > other words, I know I'm dumb, and that almost makes me smart. > > > Phil Whitmer > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 19:37:50 -0400, you wrote: >were a lot dumber than today. All those dummies had to do was analyse a >meteorite and they would know what the sun was made of. Yes, cuse the lack of forsight of medieval, Renaissance and Victorian scientists for not running meteorite samples through their mass spectrometers, neutron activation analizers, and ion microprobes! What fools they were! http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa030303a.htm "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." --Isaac Newton "If I can't see much of anything, it is because I'm standing below the testicles of dwarves." --Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Phil, This is the last response on this subject I will make to you directly. An intellectually appropriate response to your responses would be simply. _... Eric Phil Whitmer wrote: Eric, No, there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it's guarded by a leprechaun riding a unicorn. And I don't need any evidence to prove it either!!! Because as we all know, anything is possible if you just want to believe it badly enough! ;) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Phil, Right pure brain power in the 5th century B.C. Had the Greeks not fallen to the forces of that day, and progressed, I think Mankind would have gone to the moon a thousand years ago. Our species had to have a few hard knocks before we here in America did it. Brain power though, look at Einstein? In his early 20's without any scientific equipment at his disposal he tied together the observations of those that did and came up with the theories of Relativity, and also electromagnetism. Studying his life-- It just blows me away, and demonstrates the power of the human intellect. But the subject at hand... I cannot accept that this Universe in all its vastness has only us here on earth as the only intelligent species. Considering what certain meteorites reveal regarding the universal proliferation of biologic prerequisite compounds, we being the only ones would be nothing less than miraculous. Then again, alien beings might very well be aware of us, and might just eradicate us as a universal nuisance. Did not Steven Hawking give a warning about our desire to contact alien beings? He pointed out that our own history shows what happens when an advanced civilization meets one less advanced.In this regard, how many of you remember that old Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man"-- Could very well be the truth. I f you have not seen "To Serve Man", it can be viewed on the Internet. Steve Schoner IMCA #4470 Message: 14 Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 21:41:05 -0400 From: "Phil Whitmer" Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted To: Message-ID: <1fedb40f4027b171cf36c27c8...@whitmerjbqtim1> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Darren, Yes they were fools. See my reference to Democritus and Diogenes. These men and the other Greek Classical Philosophers, weren't fools. (With the possible exception of Aristotle.) They pretty much laid the groundwork for everything we know today, and they did it in the 5th Century BC. And they didn't need no stinking mass spectrometer to do it either. It was pure brain power. Btw, your arguments are starting to deteriorate into personal attacks. Funny, but still personal. I expected more from you. Phil Whitmer Lose up to 20 lbs in one month with a new diet. Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.mybluelight.com/TGL2341/fc/BLSrjpdf49qh7iwzuEO5ZG5p8MtoRlsGvswfkGnRxW2NTYT555XGtoWQMbm/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
I think that this has been a interesting topic. Its my thoughts, as I said before that any intelligent life we encounter will actually come to us. I do think that they would be far more advanced and most likely be machine/robot that would actually visit us rather then the actual beings that created them. If they have the ability to create advanced AI and travel space at the speed (as we know it)it would take to reach us, surely we would be far behind them and comperable to the gap between humans and apes. With that in mind, would they really bother to make contact with such a self destructive species like us? Would they even see us as a lifeform worth contacting? Would we remind them of how they were many many years past in their history? Would they have concern over what impact they would have on us and our religous system? Would we be not much more then a nice mold patch on a college kids 3 week old pizza science experiment? Greg C. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
>>I never claimed that life does not exist elsewhere, I'm just saying I don't believe it without any supporting evidence.<< Doesn't this sentence contradict yourself? GeoZay __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
Since the subject is still dragging on, I noticed that there are a few very cheap copies of Life As We Do Not Know It available-- I would strongly reccommend this book for anyone interested in current scientific ideas on life, what it is, and where it might be found. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0670034584&sts=t&x=54&y=9 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted
On a related, and lighter note, I hope that this link to the 8/30/2009 "Shoe" comic generates a smile or two on the list... http://www.gocomics.com/shoe/2009/08/30/ Ed - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted I never claimed that life does not exist elsewhere, I'm just saying I don't believe it without any supporting evidence.<< Doesn't this sentence contradict yourself? GeoZay __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.1.0.447) Database version: 6.13150 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.1.0.447) Database version: 6.13150 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted
>>"I'd rather believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that rocks fall from the sky."<< Wasn't it former president Andrew Jackson that said this? GeoZay __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted
I think it was George Wallace.:-) Kirk... - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted "I'd rather believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that rocks fall from the sky."<< Wasn't it former president Andrew Jackson that said this? GeoZay __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted
It was Thomas Jefferson, but it wasn't. That's how the story evolved over time, but apparently he said something more like: "A cautious mind will weigh well the opposition of the phenomenon to everything hitherto observed, the strength of the testimony by which it is supported and the errors and misconceptions to which even our senses are liable. It may be very difficult to explain how the stone you possess came into the position in which it was found, but is it easier to explain how it got into the clouds from whence it is supposed to have fallen?" I can't remember the source for this quote, though I have it on file somewhere from back when I put together a framing of my collection piece with the Jefferson/Benjamin Silliman tale. Fun story... Best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Becky and Kirk Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 7:50 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted I think it was George Wallace.:-) Kirk... - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted >>>"I'd rather believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that rocks > fall from the sky."<< > > Wasn't it former president Andrew Jackson that said this? > GeoZay > > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted
>>Supposedly attributed to my ancestor, Thomas Jefferson<< Well...I knew it was one of those Presidential old farts. :O) geoZay __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:58:59 -0400, you wrote: >"A cautious mind will weigh well the opposition of the phenomenon to >everything hitherto observed, the strength of the testimony by which it is >supported and the errors and misconceptions to which even our senses are >liable. It may be very difficult to explain how the stone you possess came >into the position in which it was found, but is it easier to explain how it >got into the clouds from whence it is supposed to have fallen?" > Becomes: >"I'd rather believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that rocks > fall from the sky." Some things never change: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1623#comic __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted
Thomas Jefferson. -- From: Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 7:42 PM To: Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien contact predicted "I'd rather believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that rocks fall from the sky."<< Wasn't it former president Andrew Jackson that said this? GeoZay __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens!
the fastest reproducing micro organism has a reproduction rate of once every ten minutes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe this reproduction rate if there was one change in dna every ten minutes would result in just shy of 53 billion different combinations in a billion years. different combinations of dna. the oldest life on earth is 3.5 billion years ago but the change to multi cellular organisms was only about 1 billion years ago with stromatolites. the human genome has 4 to the 3 billionth power of genetic combinations in its dna and a reproduction rate of once every 9 months. as species become more complex the reproduction rate decreases. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html 4 to the 3 billionth power is way over the possible 52 billion combinitations assuming one change every ten minutes which we all know is impossible. the only possible explaination of the complexity of the human genome and other forms of life on earth is that life could not possibly have formed on earth. there has not been enough time! even at one surviable change every ten minutes. at one change every ten minutes it would still take over 2 billion years. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1658283.htm I know I don't have all the answeres but it's hard to ignore real science of reproduction rates as compared to our dna. and the amount of time it takes for reproduction to occure. In short we are the aliens! eve a great day! Steve --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Phil Whitmer wrote: > From: Phil Whitmer > Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted > To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 10:01 AM > Kirk, > > We all know the Universe is really, really big. Maybe even > infinite, maybe infinite plus one, maybe even double dog > infinite. What does that have to do with abiogenisis? Why > don't you tell me how life got started here on Earth, (that > would be real science), then we'll move on to whether or not > aliens exist. (That would be idle speculation). > > Let's use this line of reasoning: the oceans are > really really big, not infinite, but really big. At > the bottom of the Marianas Trench lives a society of > mermaids, mermen and sea serpents. How do I know this? > Because the oceans are really big! The Earth is also > really big, so somewhere on the vast Tibetan Plateau > lives: Bigfoot! Size doesn't matter, it's not a valid > argument. Beliefs without evidence can take you > anywhere you want to go. Ghosts? Doppelgangers, why > not? > > Phil Whitmer > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens!
I forgot to mention the extinction events happeninmg every 100k years or so. which would require species evolved from one celluar organisms to man in less than a million years. with observed reproduction rates of all species on earth this is just not possible! and to make this meteorite related we must have been dropped here from a meteorite lol :) cheers Steve --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Steve Dunklee wrote: > From: Steve Dunklee > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! > To: "Phil Whitmer" , > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 11:41 AM > the fastest reproducing micro > organism has a reproduction rate of once every ten minutes. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe > > this reproduction rate if there was one change in dna every > ten minutes would result in just shy of 53 billion > different combinations in a billion years. different > combinations of dna. > the oldest life on earth is 3.5 billion years ago but the > change to multi cellular organisms was only about 1 billion > years ago with stromatolites. > the human genome has 4 to the 3 billionth > power of genetic combinations in its dna and a reproduction > rate of once every 9 months. as species become more complex > the reproduction rate decreases. > > http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html > > 4 to the 3 billionth power is way over the possible 52 > billion combinitations assuming one change every ten minutes > which we all know is impossible. > the only possible explaination of the complexity of the > human genome and other forms of life on earth is that life > could not possibly have formed on earth. there has not been > enough time! even at one surviable change every ten minutes. > at one change every ten minutes it would still take over 2 > billion years. > > http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe > > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1658283.htm > > I know I don't have all the answeres but it's hard to > ignore real science of reproduction rates as compared to our > dna. and the amount of time it takes for reproduction to > occure. > In short we are the aliens! > eve a great day! > Steve > > --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Phil Whitmer > wrote: > > > From: Phil Whitmer > > Subject: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted > > To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 10:01 AM > > Kirk, > > > > We all know the Universe is really, really big. Maybe > even > > infinite, maybe infinite plus one, maybe even double > dog > > infinite. What does that have to do with abiogenisis? > Why > > don't you tell me how life got started here on Earth, > (that > > would be real science), then we'll move on to whether > or not > > aliens exist. (That would be idle speculation). > > > > Let's use this line of reasoning: the oceans are > > really really big, not infinite, but really big. At > > the bottom of the Marianas Trench lives a society of > > mermaids, mermen and sea serpents. How do I know > this? > > Because the oceans are really big! The Earth is > also > > really big, so somewhere on the vast Tibetan Plateau > > lives: Bigfoot! Size doesn't matter, it's not a > valid > > argument. Beliefs without evidence can take you > > anywhere you want to go. Ghosts? Doppelgangers, why > > not? > > > > Phil Whitmer > > __ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
Citation needed! I think your numbers are off by a large factor again. The last large extinction event I heard about (except the human influence today) was 65 million years ago and a lot of multicellular species survived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event /Göran Steve Dunklee wrote: I forgot to mention the extinction events happeninmg every 100k years or so. which would require species evolved from one celluar organisms to man in less than a million years. with observed reproduction rates of all species on earth this is just not possible! and to make this meteorite related we must have been dropped here from a meteorite lol :) cheers Steve __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
This answer only deals with evolution and no meteorites. Just delete it and you will not have missed any meteoritic information. Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about the existence of aliens but you are making a few mistakes. - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years doesn't add up to 53 billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The real number is 53000 billions. That is only for one cell. You have to add in the diversification that a planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How many microbes inhabit this planet? Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 billion years there should be 2^53 cells, more than enough that some should give rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in the DNA strain. When life got more complex it invented sex to speed up development by mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's true purpose!) :-) Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give rise to complex multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers like you did. Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe while my numbers puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes (biomass). The truth lies somewhere in between but I leave that for the biologists to work on. - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there is 4^30 combinations of the human genome. If you change too much of the genome it isn't a human any longer. Just change 5% percent and you could end up with a chimpanzee. A bit further and you have a mice. Even yeast shares a lot of genes with humans. More than half of the human DNA seems to be made up of junk. Repeated expressions, inactive parts left overs from evolution and remains of viruses. Whenever a complex being is reproducing it will change a lot of different base pair, not only one. As a proof, look at the divergence between chimpanzee and humans. 5 million years created a 5% difference between our species. If we take a simplistic view and translate that into base pairs even though it isn't that easy to compare. (It is moved parts, added sequences, removed sequences and changed parts.) we have an approximately difference of 5% of 3 billion, or 150 million base pairs over 5 million years, or 30 base pairs per year (15 per specie). Not that big a number at all. So I don't find any problems with the reproduction rates compared to the complexity of our DNA. Btw I believe there is life in other places of the universe but that is only a belief. I have no proof of existence or absence. The only thing I know is that we soon have the tools to detect traces of life if it exists in our stellar vicinity and that the scientific debate following a possible find will make the meteorite list seem dull. :-) /Göran Steve Dunklee wrote: the fastest reproducing micro organism has a reproduction rate of once every ten minutes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe this reproduction rate if there was one change in dna every ten minutes would result in just shy of 53 billion different combinations in a billion years. different combinations of dna. the oldest life on earth is 3.5 billion years ago but the change to multi cellular organisms was only about 1 billion years ago with stromatolites. the human genome has 4 to the 3 billionth power of genetic combinations in its dna and a reproduction rate of once every 9 months. as species become more complex the reproduction rate decreases. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html 4 to the 3 billionth power is way over the possible 52 billion combinitations assuming one change every ten minutes which we all know is impossible. the only possible explaination of the complexity of the human genome and other forms of life on earth is that life could not possibly have formed on earth. there has not been enough time! even at one surviable change every ten minutes. at one change every ten minutes it would still take over 2 billion years. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1658283.htm I know I don't have all the answeres but it's hard to ignore real science of reproduction rates as compared to our dna. and the amount of time it takes for reproduction to occure. In short we are the aliens! eve a great day! Steve __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination... On behalf of amusement park operators every- where, I strenuously object to this comment... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Göran Axelsson" To: Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) This answer only deals with evolution and no meteorites. Just delete it and you will not have missed any meteoritic information. Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about the existence of aliens but you are making a few mistakes. - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years doesn't add up to 53 billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The real number is 53000 billions. That is only for one cell. You have to add in the diversification that a planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How many microbes inhabit this planet? Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 billion years there should be 2^53 cells, more than enough that some should give rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in the DNA strain. When life got more complex it invented sex to speed up development by mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's true purpose!) :-) Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give rise to complex multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers like you did. Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe while my numbers puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes (biomass). The truth lies somewhere in between but I leave that for the biologists to work on. - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there is 4^30 combinations of the human genome. If you change too much of the genome it isn't a human any longer. Just change 5% percent and you could end up with a chimpanzee. A bit further and you have a mice. Even yeast shares a lot of genes with humans. More than half of the human DNA seems to be made up of junk. Repeated expressions, inactive parts left overs from evolution and remains of viruses. Whenever a complex being is reproducing it will change a lot of different base pair, not only one. As a proof, look at the divergence between chimpanzee and humans. 5 million years created a 5% difference between our species. If we take a simplistic view and translate that into base pairs even though it isn't that easy to compare. (It is moved parts, added sequences, removed sequences and changed parts.) we have an approximately difference of 5% of 3 billion, or 150 million base pairs over 5 million years, or 30 base pairs per year (15 per specie). Not that big a number at all. So I don't find any problems with the reproduction rates compared to the complexity of our DNA. Btw I believe there is life in other places of the universe but that is only a belief. I have no proof of existence or absence. The only thing I know is that we soon have the tools to detect traces of life if it exists in our stellar vicinity and that the scientific debate following a possible find will make the meteorite list seem dull. :-) /Göran Steve Dunklee wrote: the fastest reproducing micro organism has a reproduction rate of once every ten minutes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe this reproduction rate if there was one change in dna every ten minutes would result in just shy of 53 billion different combinations in a billion years. different combinations of dna. the oldest life on earth is 3.5 billion years ago but the change to multi cellular organisms was only about 1 billion years ago with stromatolites. the human genome has 4 to the 3 billionth power of genetic combinations in its dna and a reproduction rate of once every 9 months. as species become more complex the reproduction rate decreases. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html 4 to the 3 billionth power is way over the possible 52 billion combinitations assuming one change every ten minutes which we all know is impossible. the only possible explaination of the complexity of the human genome and other forms of life on earth is that life could not possibly have formed on earth. there has not been enough time! even at one surviable change every ten minutes. at one change every ten minutes it would still take over 2 billion years. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1658283.htm I know I don't have all the answeres but it's hard to ignore real science of reproduction rates as compared to our dna. and the amount of time it takes for reproduction to occure. In short we are the aliens! eve a great day! Steve _
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? LOL! Isn't science fun? Steve --- On Mon, 8/31/09, Sterling K. Webb wrote: > From: Sterling K. Webb > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off > topic) > To: "Göran Axelsson" , > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 1:10 PM > > That humans have turned sex into > an amusement park is just an abomination... > > On behalf of amusement park operators every- > where, I strenuously object to this comment... > > > Sterling K. Webb > --- > - Original Message - From: "Göran Axelsson" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:11 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we > are the aliens! (off topic) > > > This answer only deals with evolution and no meteorites. > Just delete it > and you will not have missed any meteoritic information. > > Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about the > existence of > aliens but you are making a few mistakes. > > - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years doesn't > add up to 53 > billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The real > number is > 53000 billions. > That is only for one cell. You have to add in the > diversification that a > planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How many > microbes inhabit > this planet? > Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 billion > years there > should be 2^53 cells, more than enough that > some should give > rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in the > DNA strain. > When life got more complex it invented sex to speed up > development by > mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans have > turned sex > into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's true > purpose!) > > :-) > > Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give rise > to complex > multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers like > you did. > Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe while > my numbers > puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes (biomass). > The truth lies > somewhere in between but I leave that for the biologists to > work on. > > - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there is > 4^30 > combinations of the human genome. If you change too much of > the genome > it isn't a human any longer. Just change 5% percent and you > could end up > with a chimpanzee. A bit further and you have a mice. Even > yeast shares > a lot of genes with humans. > More than half of the human DNA seems to be made up of > junk. Repeated > expressions, inactive parts left overs from evolution and > remains of > viruses. > > Whenever a complex being is reproducing it will change a > lot of > different base pair, not only one. As a proof, look at the > divergence > between chimpanzee and humans. 5 million years created a 5% > difference > between our species. If we take a simplistic view and > translate that > into base pairs even though it isn't that easy to compare. > (It is moved > parts, added sequences, removed sequences and changed > parts.) we have an > approximately difference of 5% of 3 billion, or 150 million > base pairs > over 5 million years, or 30 base pairs per year (15 per > specie). Not > that big a number at all. > > So I don't find any problems with the reproduction rates > compared to the > complexity of our DNA. > > Btw I believe there is life in other places of the universe > but that is > only a belief. I have no proof of existence or absence. The > only thing I > know is that we soon have the tools to detect traces of > life if it > exists in our stellar vicinity and that the scientific > debate > following a possible find will make the meteorite list seem > dull. > > :-) > > /Göran > > > Steve Dunklee wrote: > > the fastest reproducing micro organism has a > reproduction rate of once every ten minutes. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe > > > > this reproduction rate if there was one change in dna > every ten minutes would result in just shy of 53 > billion different combinations in a billion > years. different combinations of dna. > > the oldest life on earth is 3.5 billion years > ago but the change to multi cellular organisms was only > about 1 billion years ago with stromatolites. > > the human genome has 4 to the 3 billionth > power of genetic combinations in its dna and a reproduction
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
gee when was the last time any human had 53 reproductions in one year? even the swine flue and other organisms have only recorded viable changes in genome " and im realy just guessing here" since it only covers germs that cause sicknesses. of about once every three months. there is something else going on for a recoverey from an exstinction event from the KT boundry to occure in only 65 million years. The material above and below the KT boundry is layered with tectonic events that are about an inch to 3 inches thick. the boundry material has layers between 1 and 4 thousandths of an inch. If we use the amount of layers rather than the thickness of the material to measure the elapsed time. then the recovery time from the extinction event to the time when the reefs recovered again was was a lot longer than the growth rate of limestone from a reef. the .25 to .5 inch KT boundry material with thousands of layers may represent hundreds millions of years, before life returned again on earth. if what happens today is any indication of the past, then life recovered on land, a long time before the ancient ocean reefs started to deposit limestone agaain. giving plenty of time for the vast diversity of genetic material in land animals . have a great day Steve > From: Steve Dunklee > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off > topic) > To: "Göran Axelsson" , > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, "Sterling K. Webb" > > Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 6:08 AM > How many licks does it take to get to > the center of a tootsie pop? > LOL! > Isn't science fun? > > Steve > > > --- On Mon, 8/31/09, Sterling K. Webb > wrote: > > > From: Sterling K. Webb > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact > Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) > > To: "Göran Axelsson" , > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > That humans have turned sex into > > an amusement park is just an abomination... > > > > On behalf of amusement park operators every- > > where, I strenuously object to this comment... > > > > > > Sterling K. Webb > > > --------------- > > - Original Message - From: "Göran Axelsson" > > > To: > > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:11 AM > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact > Predicted/we > > are the aliens! (off topic) > > > > > > This answer only deals with evolution and no > meteorites. > > Just delete it > > and you will not have missed any meteoritic > information. > > > > Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about > the > > existence of > > aliens but you are making a few mistakes. > > > > - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years > doesn't > > add up to 53 > > billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The > real > > number is > > 53000 billions. > > That is only for one cell. You have to add in the > > diversification that a > > planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How > many > > microbes inhabit > > this planet? > > Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 > billion > > years there > > should be 2^53 cells, more than enough > that > > some should give > > rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in > the > > DNA strain. > > When life got more complex it invented sex to speed > up > > development by > > mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans > have > > turned sex > > into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's > true > > purpose!) > > > > :-) > > > > Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give > rise > > to complex > > multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers > like > > you did. > > Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe > while > > my numbers > > puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes > (biomass). > > The truth lies > > somewhere in between but I leave that for the > biologists to > > work on. > > > > - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there > is > > 4^30 > > combinations of the human genome. If you change too > much of > > the genome > > it isn't a human any longer. Just change 5% percent > and you > > could end up > > with a chimpanzee. A bit further and you have a mice. > Even > > yeast shares > > a lot of genes wit
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
Not "any human"... it's the "human race" and as a specie I think we had more than 53 reproductions last year. You know, there are more than 6.7 billions of us now. Every reproduction is mixing genes from two different individuals. That is how you speed up evolution by inventing sex. "the .25 to .5 inch KT boundry material with thousands of layers may represent hundreds millions of years" No! Not all species were extinct, just a lot of them. And the fact that we are here now just 65 million years later plainly disproves that it would represent "hundreds millions of years". We don't need to count layers or sediment thickness. Just read the radioactive decay clocks and you will have the age. You are throwing out numbers that is plain wrong again. /Göran Steve Dunklee wrote: gee when was the last time any human had 53 reproductions in one year? even the swine flue and other organisms have only recorded viable changes in genome " and im realy just guessing here" since it only covers germs that cause sicknesses. of about once every three months. there is something else going on for a recoverey from an exstinction event from the KT boundry to occure in only 65 million years. The material above and below the KT boundry is layered with tectonic events that are about an inch to 3 inches thick. the boundry material has layers between 1 and 4 thousandths of an inch. If we use the amount of layers rather than the thickness of the material to measure the elapsed time. then the recovery time from the extinction event to the time when the reefs recovered again was was a lot longer than the growth rate of limestone from a reef. the .25 to .5 inch KT boundry material with thousands of layers may represent hundreds millions of years, before life returned again on earth. if what happens today is any indication of the past, then life recovered on land, a long time before the ancient ocean reefs started to deposit limestone agaain. giving plenty of time for the vast diversity of genetic material in land animals . have a great day Steve From: Steve Dunklee Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) To: "Göran Axelsson" , meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, "Sterling K. Webb" Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 6:08 AM How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? LOL! Isn't science fun? Steve --- On Mon, 8/31/09, Sterling K. Webb wrote: From: Sterling K. Webb Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) To: "Göran Axelsson" , meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 1:10 PM That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination... On behalf of amusement park operators every- where, I strenuously object to this comment... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Göran Axelsson" To: Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) This answer only deals with evolution and no meteorites. Just delete it and you will not have missed any meteoritic information. Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about the existence of aliens but you are making a few mistakes. - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years doesn't add up to 53 billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The real number is 53000 billions. That is only for one cell. You have to add in the diversification that a planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How many microbes inhabit this planet? Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 billion years there should be 2^53 cells, more than enough that some should give rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in the DNA strain. When life got more complex it invented sex to speed up development by mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's true purpose!) :-) Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give rise to complex multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers like you did. Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe while my numbers puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes (biomass). The truth lies somewhere in between but I leave that for the biologists to work on. - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there is 4^3
[meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted: A Rotifer's Point of View ( A Re-Post)
Kirk wrote: "Try to prove differently!" Probably once again time to post *this* :-) Sky & Telescope, August 1984, p. 111: A Rotifer's Viewpoint The members of the Little Puddlian Philosophical Society were engaged in a debate about the possibility of life outside of Little Puddle. The chief advocate of the unrivaled fitness of their environment for life, a medium-sized male rotifer named Philo, was speaking. This he accomplished by wiggling three of his many cilia, producing sound waves in the water of Little Puddle. "It is obvious that life is impossible outside the confines of Little Puddle," he argued. "The environment we inhabit is optimally designed for life. Its water remains at about the same temperature at all times, whereas even a small change would be lethal to us. The balance of acidity and alkalinity is exactly right for living things because of the small amounts of nitrates and phosphates dissolved in the water. The mud at the bottom of the Puddle contains just the right amount of sulfate to furnish an essential element of our metabolism. There are periodic infusions of liquid into Little Puddle containing small amounts of dissolved carbon compounds which we use in constructing our bodies. Furthermore, the lower forms of life that inhabit our Puddle and form the basis of our food supply also depend on these same conditions. How could the beneficial methane-producing bacteria exist without the mud that shields them from the outer oxygen and gives them the raw materials for their metabolism? Where would the algae that live on the surface of Little Puddle go if the Puddle were much greater in extent, so that the surface was much farther from the mud-cushioned bottom? There may be other environments in the universe, but it is impossible to imagine any form of life that could be adapted to the differences that exist between them and Little Puddle." "We rotifers are so well adapted to Little Puddle," he continued, "that in any environment which did not possess all of the same qualities in exactly these proper amounts, rotiferian life could not exist. Since we are an essential part of the ecology of Little Puddle, if we could not survive in another environment, neither could the whole Puddlian biosphere." "The conclusion is inescapable," he stated. "Life is only possible in Little Puddle, or in other identical Puddles. The rest of the universe is barren." Another rotifer rose to second Philo and extend his argument. "Since that is so," said the second, "it must be that the whole universe is designed to ensure the existence of our home. Were there no depression in the surrounding rock, Little Puddle would not have formed, and we would not be here to appreciate it. If the water were to freeze at a slightly higher temperature, Little Puddle would ice over and the nutrient rain that fructifies it could not get down to us. By using a new idea that I call the 'rotiferic principle,' I can demonstrate that the laws of nature must be exactly what they are and no different. Otherwise there would be no rotifers here to know about them. For example, if the heat necessary to vaporize water were slightly lower, then after the Big Rain created it, Little Puddle would have evaporated before the many hours that were needed for the first generation of rotifers to emerge from their eggs." "So," he concluded, "but for the providentially high value of the heat of vaporization of water, the universe would be empty of any life that could philosophize about it." The listeners applauded this dazzling display of the power of rotifer reasoning, as did all the other inhabitants of Little Puddle, with the exception of a few insects on its surface who bad seen some of their fellows eaten by a passing frog. Meanwhile, outside of Little Puddle, 10^30 living beings followed their life-styles in a variety of Earth environments, oblivious to the rotifer's proofs of their nonexistence. Reprinted from Life Beyond Farth, William Morrow and Co. Inc. Copyright1980 by Gerald Feinberg and Robert Shapiro. Cheers, Bernd __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
