Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
I meant to writeIf monetary terms is the reason for one's collecting meteorites, this is not crucial to science! -R - Original Message - From: Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net To: Thunder Stone stanleygr...@hotmail.com; countde...@earthlink.net; cdtuc...@cox.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Carl, this particular extraordinary meteorite, NWA5400, is unique BECAUSE of the TFL O-analysis. This has sounded the beckoning call for exta-ordinary analysis from the position of SCIENTIFIC value, not $$ collector value. This is where the distinction is stark. We will/should-be sure to examine the reason for specific isotope analysis when science calls for it. Right? After all, a round-trip to Earth is rare. If monetary terms is the reason for one's collecting meteorites, this is crucial to science. If someone wants to take it a step further and involve $$, it only makes sense to be sure of one's investment authenticity. -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Thunder Stone stanleygr...@hotmail.com To: countde...@earthlink.net; cdtuc...@cox.net; rickm...@earthlink.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 3:48 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Wow - this is making my head spin. It is my understanding that the O isotope data is necessary to show the relationship to the early earth-type rocks; it has to fall on the TFL. I would think this is necessary to prove a pairing to NWA 5400. Until then, it is not 100% certain. The fact that NWA 6292 IS paired to 5400 suggests that there could be more of this unique meteorite out there. Just my thoughts, Greg S. Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:31:46 -0700 From: countde...@earthlink.net To: cdtuc...@cox.net; rickm...@earthlink.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Carl and List, Carl has plaintively asked: Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? And as I was addressed..I will answer.. Carl, what you are seeing is not the demise, but the developing seriousness and maturity of the COLLECTOR market in high end meteorites. Yes, some scientist's work is not good enough (maybe thorough enough would be more artfully put) for some collectors. No, gas analysis are no more needed, I suppose, than any other parameter..it's just that isotopes are so definitive when calling a close pairing. I, for one, will spend more for a meteorite that has all the pedigree than one that lacks a fingerprint that, if known, just might make it something other than what it is purported to be. Huge mistakes have been made. I have seen criticism of a scientist's report for cause...but I have only once seen a dealer's word attempt to negate a finding of a scientist. The recent angrite argument comes to mind. And...heaven forbid... you ARE seeing meteorites bought with the intention of not only collecting them for whatever makes the buyer's nipples hard...historic and scientific importance, additional scientific study, appearance, rarity, but his additional satisfaction in acquiring an object of virtue that provides an opportunity to pay for itself and provide a haven for disposable cash. I look upon the collection, study and hunt for meteorites as the most fun I have had for my money with my clothes on in a long time. Best to you and all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Sep 27, 2010 8:58 AM To: Richard Montgomery , 'Meteorite-list List' , countde...@earthlink.net, Tom P. Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! List, Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? Well, I guess anyone or institution with a whole pristine uncut and unstudied meteorite in his collection really just has a rock. Because it could not possibly be legitimate or it would have
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
I have to agree with Greg H. on this one concerning O isotope data and pairing of 5400. Under normal conditions, the standard testing will work, but when it comes to the unusual nature of 5400 and 6292, more should be done. As NWA 6291 showed, you can not base the fact of pairing only on visual observations. Many questioned the pairing of it to the 2999 group due to the fact it was so unique from what is already a unique group among the angrite class - even though the same person did the testing on both samples. They dont look anything alike, yet are paired. I think with the large amount of 5363, some may be paired, but some may not if they were not recovered at the same time, but it will be a tough task to tell what material came from what stones unless good provenance has been kept. Paired or not, 5363 still is awesome material. I want a sample just to have because of the story that goes with it! Anyone got some that wants to trade? Send me an email off list! On a side note... Take a quick look at NWA 6291, 6292 and 6293. When is the last time you remember seeing 3 meteorites of such distinguished nature numbered together? Owning samples of all 3 made me think about this... Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Sat, 9/25/10, Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net wrote: From: Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! To: Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com, starsinthed...@aol.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Saturday, September 25, 2010, 5:06 PM Hello Peter, GregC and Tom, Peter has it right, each and EVERY suspect 'pairing' to NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed, on every stone. Most people do not know about the additional stones that 'looked' like NWA 5400, but oxygen work proved they were not paired. I even submitted samples from additional stones I sampled while in Morocco two years ago that 'looked' similar to NWA 5400, but oxygen analysis later proved them to be 'just' brachinites. NWA 5400 is one meteorite that requires these advanced analysis, no shortcuts or visual 'pairing' will cut it. As Peter pointed out, ...further studies are currently [being] made concerning NWA 5363. In other words, oxygen isotope analysis has not been completed so NWA 5363 has not been confirmed as a pairing [to NWA 5400]. The last discussion on this List during the summer months stated that. Dr. Irving had not yet received a sample of NWA 5363. But then again, which of the 30 stones, if any, were sampled and sent to him? Since we know that NWA 5363 consists of 30 (thirty) different stones totaling ~2kg, I and Dr. Irving, among others, believe that each and every stone that is considered as NWA 5363 need to be individually studied and have oxygen analysis performed, unless all 30 pieces fit neatly together as a puzzle, which they do not. As we know, visual comparisons do not make for a pairing even upon the 30 pieces where only one stone was sampled. As Dr. Irving stated, NWA 5363 will always be a suspect meteorite because of the unfinished work (no oxygen performed) and the fact that there are 30 different stones that were visually paired, tossed in a box, and then sold around the world as being paired to the one sampled NWA 5363 stone. I am not trying to further any negative discussions here, these are just the facts. If I had a stone from NWA 5363, you bet I would send a piece of that particular rock and have oxygen analysis performed, preferably by the same lab where NWA 5400 was studied. Short of that, you have, or are offering, unconfirmed stones which may or may not be paired to the NWA 5363 stone, much less NWA 5400. I will not engage into any further discussions here regarding this topic. If you have concerns about your NWA 5363 stone, contact a scientist who is willing to study your rock. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch To: Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hello Tom, Greg and list, I know that further studies are currently made concerning NWA 5363. I also know that several recent finds are - strangely - NOT paired to NWA 5400, despite the fact that they look very similar. Here you can see picts of NWA 5363 (please scroll down) and NWA 6292 (paired to NWA 5400!) http
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Shawn wrote: * Now the slight problem I have with NWA's is that you really don't know how much of that stuff is out there. That can work in your favor and against you. So lets say you found an NWA and its about 1000g and you get it tested and its a new NWN. Now you can say its rare because there is only 1000g, but do you really know that for sure? From what I have seen, its not the case, and NWAs keep getting paired with each other more time then not I think that's why I tend to stay away from NWA's for that reason and others. This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. I have seen collectors financially burned on falls many times, myself among them. I have lost more value by collecting new falls than I have collecting finds. This is why I tend to stay away from new falls. The price drops off sharply within a few months once the initial excitement disappears. I lost a small fortune on New Orleans and Claxton by letting the market determine the value by putting them up for auction with no reserves. Happy Hunting, Long live the finds because without them we would have no lunar meteorites, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Adam wrote: *** This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. *** Adam the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. As for the rest, there is data on strewn fields and correct documentation that is used to asses the fall or find. But with a NWA I find that people say that only buy my NWA because its the real deal and the pairs are inferior. The problem with that is with NWAs are collected and through out the months or year the same meteorite gets recycled back to dealers and in a since every NWA stone has to be classified cause of the collection process. Good example is NWA 2999, I think this meteorite has 2 other pairings if not more and think how many pairs it will have in a few years from now? And another good example is NWA 5400 which could have a few pairs, which are very likely. Now when people bank of there NWA as being rare cause of low TKW it seems that it this could be misleading cause of the circumstances that NWAs present to science and they way they are collected. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !Adam Hupe raremeteorites at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 09:22:26 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NEW RELEASE - The Day the Meteorite Fell in Sylacauga Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn wrote: * Now the slight problem I have with NWA's is that you really don't know how much of that stuff is out there. That can work in your favor and against you. So lets say you found an NWA and its about 1000g and you get it tested and its a new NWN. Now you can say its rare because there is only 1000g, but do you really know that for sure? From what I have seen, its not the case, and NWAs keep getting paired with each other more time then not I think that's why I tend to stay away from NWA's for that reason and others. This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. I have seen collectors financially burned on falls many times, myself among them. I have lost more value by collecting new falls than I have collecting finds. This is why I tend to stay away from new falls. The price drops off sharply within a few months once the initial excitement disappears. I lost a small fortune on New Orleans and Claxton by letting the market determine the value by putting them up for auction with no reserves. Happy Hunting, Long live the finds because without them we would have no lunar meteorites, Adam Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NEW RELEASE - The Day the Meteorite Fell in Sylacauga Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list Hello Greg S and Listers, Now the slight problem I have with NWA's is that you really don't know how much of that stuff is out there. That can work in your favor and against you. So lets say you found an NWA and its about 1000g and you get it tested and its a new NWN. Now you can say its rare because there is only 1000g, but do you really know that for sure? From what I have seen, its not the case, and NWAs keep getting paired with each other more time then not I think that's why I tend to stay away from NWA's for that reason and others. Plus it seems that every meteorite is unique in its own right and some bank off that uniqueness and rarity to pump up the price in the NWA market. But once more is found, that type isn't that rare anymore, so that's why I stick with the historic falls, cause that event can only happen once and there is a rich history and legacy to back up that meteorite. Also the NWA 5400 is speculated to have a connection with Earth. Now in my own opinion if this was the find of the century, wouldn't you think there would be more research papers written about this monumental find that some
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Pairings are found throughout, regardless if found or witnessed. It is just that falls require much less scrutiny since the find location is enough to make a pairing conclusion. The pairings are very rarely recorded for a fall after the initial entry in the bulletin. NWAs on the other hand, require much more study to determine pairings. The find locations are known for most NWA meteorites, same for any other area of mass concentrations. The Nomads and hunters go back to these same locations time and time again. Sometimes the shifting sands reveal more material. Same for dry lake beds and Antarctic finds. They are named the same way as NWAs regardless whether coordinates are given or not. They are all given serial numbers following the nomenclature. It doesn't make one rarer than the other. It could be argued that a lot of pairings are lost with time making the TKW for finds less than that of falls. It cannot be concluded that one is rarer than the other due to nomenclature alone. The TKWs given for falls are way off unless they came in as a single stone. One just needs to look at Park Forest where the weights were recorded in the Meteoritical Bulletin before the main mass and many others were found. Best Regards, Adam - Original Message From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 8:45:40 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Adam wrote: *** This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. *** Adam the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. As for the rest, there is data on strewn fields and correct documentation that is used to asses the fall or find. But with a NWA I find that people say that only buy my NWA because its the real deal and the pairs are inferior. The problem with that is with NWAs are collected and through out the months or year the same meteorite gets recycled back to dealers and in a since every NWA stone has to be classified cause of the collection process. Good example is NWA 2999, I think this meteorite has 2 other pairings if not more and think how many pairs it will have in a few years from now? And another good example is NWA 5400 which could have a few pairs, which are very likely. Now when people bank of there NWA as being rare cause of low TKW it seems that it this could be misleading cause of the circumstances that NWAs present to science and they way they are collected. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !Adam Hupe raremeteorites at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 09:22:26 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NEW RELEASE - The Day the Meteorite Fell in Sylacauga Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn wrote: * Now the slight problem I have with NWA's is that you really don't know how much of that stuff is out there. That can work in your favor and against you. So lets say you found an NWA and its about 1000g and you get it tested and its a new NWN. Now you can say its rare because there is only 1000g, but do you really know that for sure? From what I have seen, its not the case, and NWAs keep getting paired with each other more time then not I think that's why I tend to stay away from NWA's for that reason and others. This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. I have seen collectors financially burned on falls many times, myself among them. I have lost more value by collecting new falls than I have collecting finds. This is why I tend to stay away from new falls. The price drops off sharply within a few months once the initial excitement disappears. I lost a small fortune on New Orleans and Claxton by letting the market determine the value by putting them up for auction with no reserves. Happy Hunting, Long live the finds because
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
But, Shawn, Count, all.. with NWA you get material, which you couldn't afford, if you'd have to buy it in form of historics, material, where not sufficient quantities for all, collectorsscientists, are available among the historics, you get NEW material and sometimes material not to be found among historics and you get it at an all-time-in-history-rock-bottom-low-price. (See my boringly lengthy posting from yesterday on the IMCA-list) And I don't know, always this volatileness... I mean for most collectors, meteorites are more than only an episode of two or three years, NWA we have for only 10 years now, all in all I don't have the impression that a price decline of NWAs happened, to me it seems rather, that the recent years they're getting - some slowly, some faster - more expensive. And if you think on the somewhat longer run, mid-term, I think, then it won't carry weight, whether today a NWA costs a couple of dollars more or less. Btw. meteorites are much more than curios or collectibles, they are objects of current cutting-edge research. Other than with fine art, antiques, coins, books, baseball cards ect. that field isn't so concludingly closed in that respect. And really..., it is certainly not the business of the research institutes and universities, to serve as certifiers and consultants for the valuation of meteorites as commercial collectibles. They do research and science. And that is one point, which makes meteorite collecting so fascinating, that you can participate to a certain degree in the red-hot space research! Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. September 2010 17:46 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Adam wrote: *** This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. *** Adam the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. As for the rest, there is data on strewn fields and correct documentation that is used to asses the fall or find. But with a NWA I find that people say that only buy my NWA because its the real deal and the pairs are inferior. The problem with that is with NWAs are collected and through out the months or year the same meteorite gets recycled back to dealers and in a since every NWA stone has to be classified cause of the collection process. Good example is NWA 2999, I think this meteorite has 2 other pairings if not more and think how many pairs it will have in a few years from now? And another good example is NWA 5400 which could have a few pairs, which are very likely. Now when people bank of there NWA as being rare cause of low TKW it seems that it this could be misleading cause of the circumstances that NWAs present to science and they way they are collected. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p 4340 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. Same can be said for many US falls when strewnfields are likened to gold claims and the data is kept secret. The strewnfield for Whetstone is still not known publicly or even listed in the metbul. You may have 5-10 people in a small collective who know and that is it. Then take other finds where people intentionally provide wrong co ordinates to keep others from finding material (as pointed out recently on here) The world of meteorites is very secretive and the major focus for many is purely the money to be made. Its not about TKW, its not about actual rarity. Hell, Whetstone is the most common type of meteorite and yet people are asking for more per gram then an angrite sells for currently! At the end of the day, meteorites and values are more based on who has the material, who has access to the material and strewnfield and how much can be made off it. Almahatta Sitta is another great example. One dealer has it and can set the price to what they wish. When asked, they would not even give a discount for a state college to obtain a sample for study... If thats not about the money and not the science, I dont know a better example to offer. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Tue, 9/28/10, Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 11:45 AM Adam wrote: *** This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. *** Adam the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. As for the rest, there is data on strewn fields and correct documentation that is used to asses the fall or find. But with a NWA I find that people say that only buy my NWA because its the real deal and the pairs are inferior. The problem with that is with NWAs are collected and through out the months or year the same meteorite gets recycled back to dealers and in a since every NWA stone has to be classified cause of the collection process. Good example is NWA 2999, I think this meteorite has 2 other pairings if not more and think how many pairs it will have in a few years from now? And another good example is NWA 5400 which could have a few pairs, which are very likely. Now when people bank of there NWA as being rare cause of low TKW it seems that it this could be misleading cause of the circumstances that NWAs present to science and they way they are collected. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !Adam Hupe raremeteorites at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 09:22:26 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NEW RELEASE - The Day the Meteorite Fell in Sylacauga Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn wrote: * Now the slight problem I have with NWA's is that you really don't know how much of that stuff is out there. That can work in your favor and against you. So lets say you found an NWA and its about 1000g and you get it tested and its a new NWN. Now you can say its rare because there is only 1000g, but do you really know that for sure? From what I have seen, its not the case, and NWAs keep getting paired with each other more time then not I think that's why I tend to stay away from NWA's for that reason and others. This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. I have seen collectors financially burned on falls many times, myself among them. I have lost more value by collecting new falls than I have collecting finds
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
I collect meteorites that are odd in any way. It could be the type, where it was found, the shape or anything that makes it interesting to show and talk about. To me a fresh fall that's an OC may be a lot more desirable than an achondrite. Or an OC that has a very unique shape may be preferred. I have an Iron that has hammer marks on it (it was used to hammer stuff), that makes it unique to me. If you collect meteorites as investments - you need to do research and find ones that maintain the highest demand. The one thing that has always bothered me (mostly with NWA's) is the vast amount of conflicting information (ie Martian finds). I just wish there was a better way for the meteorite finds and (falls) to be properly accounted for and better documented. Greg S. Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:19:03 -0700 From: star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; photoph...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. Same can be said for many US falls when strewnfields are likened to gold claims and the data is kept secret. The strewnfield for Whetstone is still not known publicly or even listed in the metbul. You may have 5-10 people in a small collective who know and that is it. Then take other finds where people intentionally provide wrong co ordinates to keep others from finding material (as pointed out recently on here) The world of meteorites is very secretive and the major focus for many is purely the money to be made. Its not about TKW, its not about actual rarity. Hell, Whetstone is the most common type of meteorite and yet people are asking for more per gram then an angrite sells for currently! At the end of the day, meteorites and values are more based on who has the material, who has access to the material and strewnfield and how much can be made off it. Almahatta Sitta is another great example. One dealer has it and can set the price to what they wish. When asked, they would not even give a discount for a state college to obtain a sample for study... If thats not about the money and not the science, I dont know a better example to offer. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Tue, 9/28/10, Shawn Alan wrote: From: Shawn Alan Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 11:45 AM Adam wrote: *** This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. *** Adam the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. As for the rest, there is data on strewn fields and correct documentation that is used to asses the fall or find. But with a NWA I find that people say that only buy my NWA because its the real deal and the pairs are inferior. The problem with that is with NWAs are collected and through out the months or year the same meteorite gets recycled back to dealers and in a since every NWA stone has to be classified cause of the collection process. Good example is NWA 2999, I think this meteorite has 2 other pairings if not more and think how many pairs it will have in a few years from now? And another good example is NWA 5400 which could have a few pairs, which are very likely. Now when people bank of there NWA as being rare cause of low TKW it seems that it this could be misleading cause of the circumstances that NWAs present to science and they way they are collected. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !Adam Hupe raremeteorites at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 09:22:26 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NEW RELEASE - The Day the Meteorite Fell in Sylacauga Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn wrote: * Now the slight problem I have with NWA's is that you really don't know how
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Coect, Adam! In the Bulletins you have often with the classics either tkw figures from the first (single) report or from ld literature. The Blue Book, what has it for Sikhote - 27 tons. But rather 100 tons were recovered. Same with Campo, same with Canyon, same with Gibeon Gao-Guenie, there was always given 100kg, but I guess alone Carion must have collected 500kgs. It took decades until Neuvo Mercurio wasn't listed anymore with 5 but with 50kg. Also with small-tkw falls. Remember the example here on the list, where we all found for Chiang Khan rather 10kgs than the 367g from the Catalogue. ...and so on. Huh and the rareness of NWAs, Of course, there seem to be soo much and many. But that impression is deceptive. Example, take the NWA 2975-Martian-group. It has now already 15 different numbers and of course one saw many samples from these numbers offered, so that some thought, it must be a mass-Martian, simply because of its temporary presence on web. Count together the tkws - 1.3kg. A little bag full, a nothing. If you want, add some non-classifed, selfpaired samples, still a small bag and a nothing. There never was Ali Baba's treasure cave in NWA-wonderland. Just check it, how much smaller the tkws of the NWAs are than those of the historics, how few of the rarer classes really there are. It's such a fine tool, the database: http://tin.er.usgs.gov/meteor/index.php There are no myriads of tons. In fact - rareness - historics: 9 of 10 meteorites on Earth belong to the 20 largest mass irons. (In fact more, cause there the dark figure is highest) 19 CV3s out of 20 are an Allende 3 out of 4 eucrites are a Millbillillie And so on. NWAs, the rarer classes are indeed superrare. And the rarest of them, these stones with a small tkw. In a few years/decades they will be legends. Best! Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Ah! Meine guten Freunde, Martin, Shawn und alle auf der Liste. Martin said, And that is one point, which makes meteorite collecting so fascinating, that you can participate to a certain degree in the red-hot space research! You have hit the nail on the head, Martin! I, for one, collect for the thrill of having a specimen that advanced the knowledge of the cosmos and our beginnings. What would one prize more and pay more to have? A lunar brought back by an astronaut from the moon, or the lunar found in the trackless deserts of NWA and proven by all science available to be authentic...or a specimen recovered from NWA that has a classification based on a PARTIAL analysis? Of course!!! The one with the impeccable provenance of being found on the moon! What would command more of one's treasure. An Ensesheim with provenance, or a stone of the same classification from NWA? How about the first meteorite, with COMPLETE analysis, that is the first of it's kind found to be tied to the earth's early formation? Say NWA 5400? It is the research, and the science, and the rarity, that first drive the desireabilitythen the other factors of collection enter the picture to set the initial price. Please, ladies and gentlemen, don't denigrate those of us who say we collect for investment. We, in reality, support the research and the science of our learned academics with our obsession to participate by desiring to have and to hold what they have discovered. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Sent: Sep 28, 2010 9:17 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! But, Shawn, Count, all.. with NWA you get material, which you couldn't afford, if you'd have to buy it in form of historics, material, where not sufficient quantities for all, collectorsscientists, are available among the historics, you get NEW material and sometimes material not to be found among historics and you get it at an all-time-in-history-rock-bottom-low-price. (See my boringly lengthy posting from yesterday on the IMCA-list) And I don't know, always this volatileness... I mean for most collectors, meteorites are more than only an episode of two or three years, NWA we have for only 10 years now, all in all I don't have the impression that a price decline of NWAs happened, to me it seems rather, that the recent years they're getting - some slowly, some faster - more expensive. And if you think on the somewhat longer run, mid-term, I think, then it won't carry weight, whether today a NWA costs a couple of dollars more or less. Btw. meteorites are much more than curios or collectibles, they are objects of current cutting-edge research. Other than with fine art, antiques, coins, books, baseball cards ect. that field isn't so concludingly closed in that respect. And really..., it is certainly not the business of the research institutes and universities, to serve as certifiers and consultants for the valuation of meteorites as commercial collectibles. They do research and science. And that is one point, which makes meteorite collecting so fascinating, that you can participate to a certain degree in the red-hot space research! Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. September 2010 17:46 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Adam wrote: *** This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. *** Adam the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. As for the rest, there is data on strewn fields and correct documentation that is used to asses the fall or find. But with a NWA I find that people say that only buy my NWA because its the real deal and the pairs are inferior. The problem with that is with NWAs are collected and through out the months or year the same meteorite gets recycled back to dealers and in a since every NWA stone has to be classified cause of the collection process. Good example is NWA 2999, I think this meteorite has 2 other pairings if not more and think how many pairs it will have in a few years from now? And another good example is NWA 5400 which could have a few pairs, which are very likely. Now when people bank of there NWA
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hi Greg S., the Martians and the Lunars are the best documented meteorites of all and are also those meteorites, where the most research is currently done on (together with the carbonaceous ones). Martians Lunars are the last anonym meteorites of all. Find all about the lunaites here: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites_list_alumina.htm If you click in the list on the very name/number a page opens, with pictures, all members of the group, all entries in the Bulletins aand all papers and abstracts (those clickable) published about that very lunaite also the most recent ones. On top you find a short note, which points make that lunar special. Below the list of publications, you can click the chemical classification, Opening another page, where you find that particular lunar placed in the various chemical diagrams with the other lunars. Cool, isn't it? Such a website for Martians is also in progress: http://www.imca.cc/mars/martian-meteorites.htm Furthermore, here you have all Martians and Lunars and how they belong together at a glance with pics of the main masses as well as of collector-sized slices: http://www.meteoris.de/ And if nothing helps, then - like always - David Weir is your best friend: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ Conflicting information I can't remember with the Martians. Well, and there was so far only one Martian, that NWA 2975++, where, because it produced so many small pebbles, a few sold supposedly paired material for the quick buck unclassified. Well in general, not only with NWA, with the observed falls it's often the same too. That private collecting market is so fast, most material is sold and bought while the official classification process is still running. Often enough it can take 2 years, until a stone will be published in the Bulletin. And with the very tricky ones, where the classification is everything else than trivial, it can take even longer. And if classification is finished, that doesn't mean that research is finished. Of course it continues. You saw it just a few weeks back here on the list, where in an CV3 from NWA with an old 2000er number, the CAIs were measured to be 2 million years older than usually, which in turn led the scientist, to postulate, that we need a new model of chondrules and planet formation. Isn't that great? From such a desert-stinker, from NWA, where we here on the list sometimes quibble, whether 10$ a gram is adequate, or 15$ a rip-off or insist, that it has to cost 5$, there a whole new model can emanate, how World was created! Skol! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Thunder Stone Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. September 2010 19:16 An: star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; photoph...@yahoo.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! I collect meteorites that are odd in any way. It could be the type, where it was found, the shape or anything that makes it interesting to show and talk about. To me a fresh fall that's an OC may be a lot more desirable than an achondrite. Or an OC that has a very unique shape may be preferred. I have an Iron that has hammer marks on it (it was used to hammer stuff), that makes it unique to me. If you collect meteorites as investments - you need to do research and find ones that maintain the highest demand. The one thing that has always bothered me (mostly with NWA's) is the vast amount of conflicting information (ie Martian finds). I just wish there was a better way for the meteorite finds and (falls) to be properly accounted for and better documented. Greg S. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
for investment. We, in reality, support the research and the science of our learned academics with our obsession to participate by desiring to have and to hold what they have discovered. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Sent: Sep 28, 2010 9:17 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! But, Shawn, Count, all.. with NWA you get material, which you couldn't afford, if you'd have to buy it in form of historics, material, where not sufficient quantities for all, collectorsscientists, are available among the historics, you get NEW material and sometimes material not to be found among historics and you get it at an all-time-in-history-rock-bottom-low-price. (See my boringly lengthy posting from yesterday on the IMCA-list) And I don't know, always this volatileness... I mean for most collectors, meteorites are more than only an episode of two or three years, NWA we have for only 10 years now, all in all I don't have the impression that a price decline of NWAs happened, to me it seems rather, that the recent years they're getting - some slowly, some faster - more expensive. And if you think on the somewhat longer run, mid-term, I think, then it won't carry weight, whether today a NWA costs a couple of dollars more or less. Btw. meteorites are much more than curios or collectibles, they are objects of current cutting-edge research. Other than with fine art, antiques, coins, books, baseball cards ect. that field isn't so concludingly closed in that respect. And really..., it is certainly not the business of the research institutes and universities, to serve as certifiers and consultants for the valuation of meteorites as commercial collectibles. They do research and science. And that is one point, which makes meteorite collecting so fascinating, that you can participate to a certain degree in the red-hot space research! Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. September 2010 17:46 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Adam wrote: *** This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. *** Adam the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. As for the rest, there is data on strewn fields and correct documentation that is used to asses the fall or find. But with a NWA I find that people say that only buy my NWA because its the real deal and the pairs are inferior. The problem with that is with NWAs are collected and through out the months or year the same meteorite gets recycled back to dealers and in a since every NWA stone has to be classified cause of the collection process. Good example is NWA 2999, I think this meteorite has 2 other pairings if not more and think how many pairs it will have in a few years from now? And another good example is NWA 5400 which could have a few pairs, which are very likely. Now when people bank of there NWA as being rare cause of low TKW it seems that it this could be misleading cause of the circumstances that NWAs present to science and they way they are collected. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p 4340 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hello Count and other Listers :) Count said; What would command more of one's treasure. An Ensesheim with provenance, or a stone of the same classification from NWA? How about the first meteorite, with COMPLETE analysis, that is the first of it's kind found to be tied to the earth's early formation? Say NW 5400? * Count all meteorites that are given a name are all complete with an analysis, so this doesn't make NWA 5400 more special. Also if you look at it every meteorite in its own right, can be deemed as different. Look at Vesta, I wonder how many meteorites come from that asteroid and here we have variations in each meteorite from that parent body. I find collecting from a classification aspect with NWA's to be very cumbersome because of the slight variations in meteorites which some people say its rare. Now lets talk about rarity, I would take an Ensisheim over a NWA any day of the week and even if its the the first of it's kind found to be tied to the earth's early formation? as how you put it with a question mark. Now the dilemma with this unproven theory is that wouldn't the cosmic-ray-exposure age of NWA 5400 be 4 billion years old when the Earth had the catastrophic event to eject material of the planet? The oldest date with stony meteorites is about 100 million year for the CRE. I find it odd that the CRE hasn't been test yet? That in its self would prove or disprove the theory and put it at rest. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
What do you mean, am I reading this right? You assume because 1 person has a piece of a rare meteorite that it's an absolute that more of that meteorite exists? This certainly doesn't take into account single meteorite classifications at all. Are you saying the EVERY NWA ever classified has a pairing? Because that's what this sounds like. Regards, Eric On 9/28/2010 12:36 PM, Galactic Stone Ironworks wrote: So, if NWA 5400 turned up in the Hupe inventory, you can bet your bottom dollar that the same meteorite will show up in other dealer inventories under a different NWA number(s). __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hi Shawn and List, Historics and NWA's are like chocolate and peanut butter - they both have their individual virtues, but they are arguably more tasty when combined. Unless a person's collecting interest is narrowly defined (type collection, historic falls, state falls, hammers, etc), then most collections can benefit from having a broad base of specimens. Historicals are a must in my opinion because of what they represent in terms of history and cultural significance. NWA's are a must because they represent an affordable way to stock a collection with exotic types. Try shopping for a piece of Lodran or Novo Urei versus an NWA lodranite or ureilite to see what I mean. So it mainly comes down to the individual collector and what they are looking for. Some people, like myself, are chaotic collectors. My collection lacks a solid focus. I have historicals, NWA's, hammers, rare types, appealing names, and sentimental specimens. In my collection, all meteorites are welcome, regardless of historical or scientific significance. Even meteorwrongs are welcome in my collection (nice piece of Shirokovsky on the way as we speak) Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 9/28/10, Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Count and other Listers :) Count said; What would command more of one's treasure. An Ensesheim with provenance, or a stone of the same classification from NWA? How about the first meteorite, with COMPLETE analysis, that is the first of it's kind found to be tied to the earth's early formation? Say NW 5400? * Count all meteorites that are given a name are all complete with an analysis, so this doesn't make NWA 5400 more special. Also if you look at it every meteorite in its own right, can be deemed as different. Look at Vesta, I wonder how many meteorites come from that asteroid and here we have variations in each meteorite from that parent body. I find collecting from a classification aspect with NWA's to be very cumbersome because of the slight variations in meteorites which some people say its rare. Now lets talk about rarity, I would take an Ensisheim over a NWA any day of the week and even if its the the first of it's kind found to be tied to the earth's early formation? as how you put it with a question mark. Now the dilemma with this unproven theory is that wouldn't the cosmic-ray-exposure age of NWA 5400 be 4 billion years old when the Earth had the catastrophic event to eject material of the planet? The oldest date with stony meteorites is about 100 million year for the CRE. I find it odd that the CRE hasn't been test yet? That in its self would prove or disprove the theory and put it at rest. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hi Count, You said it! I couldn't agree more, It is the research, and the science, and the rarity, that first drive the desirabilitythen the other factors of collection enter the picture to set the initial price. Please, ladies and gentlemen, don't denigrate those of us who say we collect for investment. We, in reality, support the research and the science of our learned academics with our obsession to participate by desiring to have and to hold what they have discovered. Some people say they like a hammer because it hit something, other people say the meteorite should have an old story. If it's from the Moon or Mars or Earth, there will be many paired NWA's to choose from. Three cheers for the NWA's, its a collectors dream come true. Ensesheim meteorite is another LL6 chondrite stony meteorite. but if this is what you like, then enjoy it. Tim Heitz MIDWEST METEORITES http://www.meteorman.org 314-596-1435 Member IMCA-4781 International Meteorite Collectors Association - Original Message - From: countde...@earthlink.net To: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Ah! Meine guten Freunde, Martin, Shawn und alle auf der Liste. Martin said, And that is one point, which makes meteorite collecting so fascinating, that you can participate to a certain degree in the red-hot space research! You have hit the nail on the head, Martin! I, for one, collect for the thrill of having a specimen that advanced the knowledge of the cosmos and our beginnings. What would one prize more and pay more to have? A lunar brought back by an astronaut from the moon, or the lunar found in the trackless deserts of NWA and proven by all science available to be authentic...or a specimen recovered from NWA that has a classification based on a PARTIAL analysis? Of course!!! The one with the impeccable provenance of being found on the moon! What would command more of one's treasure. An Ensesheim with provenance, or a stone of the same classification from NWA? How about the first meteorite, with COMPLETE analysis, that is the first of it's kind found to be tied to the earth's early formation? Say NWA 5400? It is the research, and the science, and the rarity, that first drive the desireabilitythen the other factors of collection enter the picture to set the initial price. Please, ladies and gentlemen, don't denigrate those of us who say we collect for investment. We, in reality, support the research and the science of our learned academics with our obsession to participate by desiring to have and to hold what they have discovered. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Sent: Sep 28, 2010 9:17 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! But, Shawn, Count, all.. with NWA you get material, which you couldn't afford, if you'd have to buy it in form of historics, material, where not sufficient quantities for all, collectorsscientists, are available among the historics, you get NEW material and sometimes material not to be found among historics and you get it at an all-time-in-history-rock-bottom-low-price. (See my boringly lengthy posting from yesterday on the IMCA-list) And I don't know, always this volatileness... I mean for most collectors, meteorites are more than only an episode of two or three years, NWA we have for only 10 years now, all in all I don't have the impression that a price decline of NWAs happened, to me it seems rather, that the recent years they're getting - some slowly, some faster - more expensive. And if you think on the somewhat longer run, mid-term, I think, then it won't carry weight, whether today a NWA costs a couple of dollars more or less. Btw. meteorites are much more than curios or collectibles, they are objects of current cutting-edge research. Other than with fine art, antiques, coins, books, baseball cards ect. that field isn't so concludingly closed in that respect. And really..., it is certainly not the business of the research institutes and universities, to serve as certifiers and consultants for the valuation of meteorites as commercial collectibles. They do research and science. And that is one point, which makes meteorite collecting so fascinating, that you can participate to a certain degree in the red-hot space research! Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. September 2010 17:46 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Adam wrote
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hi Shawn, I find collecting from a classification aspect with NWA's to be very cumbersome because of the slight variations in meteorites which some people say its rare. Once I was also a relatively strict historics collector. Until I realized, that NWA will open to me a WHOLE NEW WORLD!!! Hey, I simply didn't knew, where to take it from, if I had to pay a 1000$ a gram for an Acapulco, or a couple of hundreds for a How or R, or 100+ for an CK, or some hundreds of thousands for a Calcalong. And there were many types simply unavailable. Or today, each beginner has a fat black-cruster OC of several kilos as paperweight on the desk, where should I get it then from? Even at my earliest times the Gaos were already brown :-( Now I can play around with the whole solar system or at least with the whole asteroid belt, Moon and Mars in my hands! And imagine, I need no microscope or magnifier and haven't to overstress my fantasy anymore to watch my specimens! O.k. now I don't have to my stone the story that Barney Geroellheimer Jr. from Possum Trot, AL, used it from 1953-57 as a chamber pot, until the mineral collector and medic Dr.Zampone took it as payment for a successful treatment against cholera, whose widow donated his collection later to the Smithsonian, where in 1972 the esteemed Dr.Macarius Seltsam found organic compounds in the stone and building blocks of life And so what! - if it's a rare type - and, Shawn, AT THIS PRICE!!! - I can live excellently with that. And if I do some sports and if I give up some habits, which make life liveable, then most probably I will still live to hear our desert stones of today being called by the collectors of the next but one generation: historical. ;-) Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. September 2010 21:57 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hello Count and other Listers :) Count said; What would command more of one's treasure. An Ensesheim with provenance, or a stone of the same classification from NWA? How about the first meteorite, with COMPLETE analysis, that is the first of it's kind found to be tied to the earth's early formation? Say NW 5400? * Count all meteorites that are given a name are all complete with an analysis, so this doesn't make NWA 5400 more special. Also if you look at it every meteorite in its own right, can be deemed as different. Look at Vesta, I wonder how many meteorites come from that asteroid and here we have variations in each meteorite from that parent body. I find collecting from a classification aspect with NWA's to be very cumbersome because of the slight variations in meteorites which some people say its rare. Now lets talk about rarity, I would take an Ensisheim over a NWA any day of the week and even if its the the first of it's kind found to be tied to the earth's early formation? as how you put it with a question mark. Now the dilemma with this unproven theory is that wouldn't the cosmic-ray-exposure age of NWA 5400 be 4 billion years old when the Earth had the catastrophic event to eject material of the planet? The oldest date with stony meteorites is about 100 million year for the CRE. I find it odd that the CRE hasn't been test yet? That in its self would prove or disprove the theory and put it at rest. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p 4340 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hello Eric and All, MikeG wrote: So, if NWA 5400 turned up in the Hupe inventory, you can bet your bottom dollar that the same meteorite will show up in other dealer inventories under a different NWA number(s). MikeG obviously made a hip-shot, knee-jerk uninformed comment. Considering there are plenty of single stone classifications discovered by me, Adam and other people throughtout. At least some people are finally discussing that in order to make an NWA 5400 pairing, oxygen isotope work MUST be completed, period!! This has been my argument from Day 1 when NWA 5363 was claimed as a pairing without any oxygen work being performed! People need to go back and re-read my very first announcement of NWA 5400, and then my first comments about NWA 5363. As mentioned in my last email regarding this thread, I do not feel I need to keep harping on these facts. I appreciate a few cool heads making these statements on their own, refreshing to know a few people still understand the value of patience and thorough work! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! What do you mean, am I reading this right? You assume because 1 person has a piece of a rare meteorite that it's an absolute that more of that meteorite exists? This certainly doesn't take into account single meteorite classifications at all. Are you saying the EVERY NWA ever classified has a pairing? Because that's what this sounds like. Regards, Eric On 9/28/2010 12:36 PM, Galactic Stone Ironworks wrote: So, if NWA 5400 turned up in the Hupe inventory, you can bet your bottom dollar that the same meteorite will show up in other dealer inventories under a different NWA number(s). __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3164 - Release Date: 09/28/10 02:34:00 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hi Greg and List, I wasn't trying to take a shot at anyone. But the marketplace has changed, even in the brief 3 years I have been active on it. There was a time, not long ago, that the number of stateside dealers who bought directly from the Moroccan sources could be counted on two hands - not counting buying from a wholesaler at a show like Tucson. 10 years ago, how many people were wiring money to the Moroccans for Fed-Ex packages full of meteorites that were destined for resale? I would wager that it was not very many compared to now. On Facebook alone, there are no less than 2 dozen overseas and Moroccan dealers who are selling directly to the end collector. These sellers know they can get more money for their stones by selling to a newbie dealer or end collector, than selling to a veteran dealer. I wasn't taking a shot at NWA 5400 or the Hupes. I think that nowadays, any meteorite that is offered to one dealer, is going to be offered to several dealers and collectors - to maximize profit. Our overseas friends are eager students of capitalism and they are simply applying the same lessons they have learned after years of watching their stones get sold for pennies on the dollar and then flipped onto the market of end collectors for a profit. This is happening more and more now. Speaking from personal experience, I have now processed (sliced and polished) a new NWA meteorite from 2 independent Moroccan sources. Guess what? It's the same meteorite and there is a 3rd dealer offering this same material. All 3 meteorites are exactly the same and have 3 different NWA numbers. Of course, I am making a casual pairing based on handling the material and I cannot say for certain they are exactly the same without microprobe and/or O-isotope. But from talking to these dealers, each one had no idea that other dealers were being offered the same material. Each one thought they were getting an exclusive deal. If I am an overseas source, I know I will get more money per gram for my stones if I sell them to a collector on Facebook versus selling them to a seasoned dealer like Adam or Greg. Now that this fact is well known, the genie is out of the bottle. Exclusivity for NWA finds is dead. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 9/28/10, Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net wrote: Hello Eric and All, MikeG wrote: So, if NWA 5400 turned up in the Hupe inventory, you can bet your bottom dollar that the same meteorite will show up in other dealer inventories under a different NWA number(s). MikeG obviously made a hip-shot, knee-jerk uninformed comment. Considering there are plenty of single stone classifications discovered by me, Adam and other people throughtout. At least some people are finally discussing that in order to make an NWA 5400 pairing, oxygen isotope work MUST be completed, period!! This has been my argument from Day 1 when NWA 5363 was claimed as a pairing without any oxygen work being performed! People need to go back and re-read my very first announcement of NWA 5400, and then my first comments about NWA 5363. As mentioned in my last email regarding this thread, I do not feel I need to keep harping on these facts. I appreciate a few cool heads making these statements on their own, refreshing to know a few people still understand the value of patience and thorough work! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! What do you mean, am I reading this right? You assume because 1 person has a piece of a rare meteorite that it's an absolute that more of that meteorite exists? This certainly doesn't take into account single meteorite classifications at all. Are you saying the EVERY NWA ever classified has a pairing? Because that's what this sounds like. Regards, Eric On 9/28/2010 12:36 PM, Galactic Stone Ironworks wrote: So, if NWA 5400 turned up in the Hupe inventory, you can bet your bottom dollar that the same meteorite will show up in other dealer inventories under a different NWA number(s). __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hi Alanj, list, From my files, NWA 2999 has quite many pairings. Here is my general write up for this meteorite with a compilation of its recognized pairings (updated 2009 so possibly not complete): - NWA 2999 (Morocco, Angrite), found 2004. Purchased Tagounite (G. Hupé). TKW: 1...@312 g. Angrite with plutonic texture as Angra dos Reis. Mercury origin questioned but not conclusive (Weir). (Note 1: G. Hupé had all the 12 fragments analyzed, which is a sign of a serious work) Paired with NWA 3158 (1...@681 g), NWA 3164 (4...@928 g), NWA 4569 (m...@484 g), NWA 4662 (1...@62 g), NWA 4877 (1...@1000 g), NWA 4931 (2...@2140 g) and NWA 6291 (1...@250 g). Cumulated tkw: 6...@5937 g. (Note 2. Weir suggests NWA 2836 is also paired but the Met. Bull database report the type of NWA 2836 as being LL3.7) -- Best to all, Zelimir At 17:45 28/09/2010, Shawn Alan wrote: Adam wrote: *** This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. *** Adam the difference between NWAs and all the other falls is that NWA nobody knows where the strewn fields are. As for the rest, there is data on strewn fields and correct documentation that is used to asses the fall or find. But with a NWA I find that people say that only buy my NWA because its the real deal and the pairs are inferior. The problem with that is with NWAs are collected and through out the months or year the same meteorite gets recycled back to dealers and in a since every NWA stone has to be classified cause of the collection process. Good example is NWA 2999, I think this meteorite has 2 other pairings if not more and think how many pairs it will have in a few years from now? And another good example is NWA 5400 which could have a few pairs, which are very likely. Now when people bank of there NWA as being rare cause of low TKW it seems that it this could be misleading cause of the circumstances that NWAs present to science and they way they are collected. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !Adam Hupe raremeteorites at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 09:22:26 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NEW RELEASE - The Day the Meteorite Fell in Sylacauga Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn wrote: * Now the slight problem I have with NWA's is that you really don't know how much of that stuff is out there. That can work in your favor and against you. So lets say you found an NWA and its about 1000g and you get it tested and its a new NWN. Now you can say its rare because there is only 1000g, but do you really know that for sure? From what I have seen, its not the case, and NWAs keep getting paired with each other more time then not I think that's why I tend to stay away from NWA's for that reason and others. This issue is not unique to NWA meteorites. The same thing could be said for Antarctic or other desert finds. Yes, Antarctica is a desert. The same issue applies to falls. How much Allende is really out there? Nobody knows for sure, the same can be said for Murchison. You can make the same claim for just about any fall. I have seen collectors financially burned on falls many times, myself among them. I have lost more value by collecting new falls than I have collecting finds. This is why I tend to stay away from new falls. The price drops off sharply within a few months once the initial excitement disappears. I lost a small fortune on New Orleans and Claxton by letting the market determine the value by putting them up for auction with no reserves. Happy Hunting, Long live the finds because without them we would have no lunar meteorites, Adam Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NEW RELEASE - The Day the Meteorite Fell in Sylacauga Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list Hello Greg S and Listers, Now the slight problem I have with NWA's is that you really don't know how much of that stuff is out there. That can work in your favor and against you. So lets say you found an NWA and its about 1000g and you get it tested
[meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hi Tim and List, Please, ladies and gentlemen, don't denigrate those of us who say we collect for investment No hard feelings, no denigration, of course, but I do remember that my passion for stamps began to wane when I started seeing a monetary value in my stamp collection. Money was always important when, as a youngster, I had to decide whether I should buy some new stamps from the money my parents gave me for our daily school ration of milk, a roll, and a small bar of chocolate. Very often I opted for the stamps but this was not profit-/business-oriented. The sole driving force was to acquire some more stamps that I didn't have yet and marvel at these little pieces of paper. But when I started considering them as a means to make money ... the passion, the enthusiam was gone. I don't collect meteorites for investment but for the pure joy of holding a piece from the depths of the solar system (and beyond) in my hands and study it (visually and microscopically). As for investment, most of us will know that collectibles seldom yield the financial value you have invested. When I started selling my stamps to make money, I usually got about 1/3 (only) of the monetary value indicated for these stamps in catalogues (here in Germany this was the so-called Michel Katalog for those in the know). Whether NWA 6292 is paired to NWA 5400 or whether it isn't, doesn't really bother me. The thrill (for me) is that at least one of them plots directly on the TFL, whereas run-off-the-mill brachinites do not. And, on the TFL or below, NWA or Brachina, a microscopic look at an acapulcoite, a lodranite, an angrite, a brachinite, a diogenite thin section (like NWA 6256) or a eucrite thin section like (NWA 1644 or NWA 6309) in cross-polarized light will blow your socks off - whether you like it or not. Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
- From: Galactic Stone Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com To: Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net Cc: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hi Greg and List, I wasn't trying to take a shot at anyone. But the marketplace has changed, even in the brief 3 years I have been active on it. There was a time, not long ago, that the number of stateside dealers who bought directly from the Moroccan sources could be counted on two hands - not counting buying from a wholesaler at a show like Tucson. 10 years ago, how many people were wiring money to the Moroccans for Fed-Ex packages full of meteorites that were destined for resale? I would wager that it was not very many compared to now. On Facebook alone, there are no less than 2 dozen overseas and Moroccan dealers who are selling directly to the end collector. These sellers know they can get more money for their stones by selling to a newbie dealer or end collector, than selling to a veteran dealer. I wasn't taking a shot at NWA 5400 or the Hupes. I think that nowadays, any meteorite that is offered to one dealer, is going to be offered to several dealers and collectors - to maximize profit. Our overseas friends are eager students of capitalism and they are simply applying the same lessons they have learned after years of watching their stones get sold for pennies on the dollar and then flipped onto the market of end collectors for a profit. This is happening more and more now. Speaking from personal experience, I have now processed (sliced and polished) a new NWA meteorite from 2 independent Moroccan sources. Guess what? It's the same meteorite and there is a 3rd dealer offering this same material. All 3 meteorites are exactly the same and have 3 different NWA numbers. Of course, I am making a casual pairing based on handling the material and I cannot say for certain they are exactly the same without microprobe and/or O-isotope. But from talking to these dealers, each one had no idea that other dealers were being offered the same material. Each one thought they were getting an exclusive deal. If I am an overseas source, I know I will get more money per gram for my stones if I sell them to a collector on Facebook versus selling them to a seasoned dealer like Adam or Greg. Now that this fact is well known, the genie is out of the bottle. Exclusivity for NWA finds is dead. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 9/28/10, Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net wrote: Hello Eric and All, MikeG wrote: So, if NWA 5400 turned up in the Hupe inventory, you can bet your bottom dollar that the same meteorite will show up in other dealer inventories under a different NWA number(s). MikeG obviously made a hip-shot, knee-jerk uninformed comment. Considering there are plenty of single stone classifications discovered by me, Adam and other people throughtout. At least some people are finally discussing that in order to make an NWA 5400 pairing, oxygen isotope work MUST be completed, period!! This has been my argument from Day 1 when NWA 5363 was claimed as a pairing without any oxygen work being performed! People need to go back and re-read my very first announcement of NWA 5400, and then my first comments about NWA 5363. As mentioned in my last email regarding this thread, I do not feel I need to keep harping on these facts. I appreciate a few cool heads making these statements on their own, refreshing to know a few people still understand the value of patience and thorough work! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! What do you mean, am I reading this right? You assume because 1 person has a piece of a rare meteorite that it's an absolute that more of that meteorite exists? This certainly doesn't take into account single meteorite classifications at all. Are you saying the EVERY NWA ever classified has a pairing? Because that's what this sounds like. Regards, Eric On 9/28/2010 12:36
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Mike G and Greg H and Listers, Mike G great point about how exclusivity is misconstrued with NWAs and before you know it, you have multiple pairs. Good example, NWA 2999, yeah there is a lot of pairs with that one and some say that the other pairs don't me squat and only buy the real deal. So you see that's where the problem lies with price points and collecting NWA's. I personally from a collectors stand point only collect some NWAs that I deem fit, Lunars and Mars and a couple others, but for the most part, I stay away and let the scientist do their work. But for other meteorites, I go for the historic ones and rare types with real importance, not ones that have multiple meteorite from the same parent body but with slight differences in composition. Greg H you say that O isotope is the only factor to determine pairing... your wrong there are other factors with paring meteorites. Some body told me this O isotopes don't prove that one specimen is matched with another. It is certainly possible that two separate but related meteorites will have very similar O-isotopic compositions. They also could have similar olivine Fa compositions, similar refractory lithophile abundances, etc. It is certainly very suggestive of pairing if the textures, compositions (chemical and isotopic), and CRE ages match. But more supportive would be the terrestrial residence ages, i.e., if they fell at around the same time. The best proof of pairing is if the different samples fit together. So you see there are other factors involved with pairing and I have a dieing question What is the CRE of NWA 5400? If it came from Earth 4 billion years ago that you suggested, wouldn't the CRE be around 4 billion years? I heard that the oldest CRE to this date for a stoney meteorite is around 100 million years. I find it odd that this hasn't been test when this test is simple compared to other test to prove it might have a connection to Earth. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Galactic Stone Ironworks meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 17:20:58 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi Greg and List, I wasn't trying to take a shot at anyone. But the marketplace has changed, even in the brief 3 years I have been active on it. There was a time, not long ago, that the number of stateside dealers who bought directly from the Moroccan sources could be counted on two hands - not counting buying from a wholesaler at a show like Tucson. 10 years ago, how many people were wiring money to the Moroccans for Fed-Ex packages full of meteorites that were destined for resale? I would wager that it was not very many compared to now. On Facebook alone, there are no less than 2 dozen overseas and Moroccan dealers who are selling directly to the end collector. These sellers know they can get more money for their stones by selling to a newbie dealer or end collector, than selling to a veteran dealer. I wasn't taking a shot at NWA 5400 or the Hupes. I think that nowadays, any meteorite that is offered to one dealer, is going to be offered to several dealers and collectors - to maximize profit. Our overseas friends are eager students of capitalism and they are simply applying the same lessons they have learned after years of watching their stones get sold for pennies on the dollar and then flipped onto the market of end collectors for a profit. This is happening more and more now. Speaking from personal experience, I have now processed (sliced and polished) a new NWA meteorite from 2 independent Moroccan sources. Guess what? It's the same meteorite and there is a 3rd dealer offering this same material. All 3 meteorites are exactly the same and have 3 different NWA numbers. Of course, I am making a casual pairing based on handling the material and I cannot say for certain they are exactly the same without microprobe and/or O-isotope. But from talking to these dealers, each one had no idea that other dealers were being offered the same material. Each one thought they were getting an exclusive deal. If I am an overseas source, I know I will get more money per gram for my stones if I sell them to a collector on Facebook versus selling them to a seasoned dealer like Adam or Greg. Now that this fact is well known, the genie is out of the bottle. Exclusivity for NWA finds is dead. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Bernd wrote: I don't collect meteorites for investment but for the pure joy of holding a piece from the depths of the solar system (and beyond) in my hands and study it (visually and microscopically). Bravo Bernd. It is your love for these stones that has inspired me to enrich my knowledge (and collection) of meteorites. If I were to worry about the money side of things then I am sure my passion would die. Mike Tettenborn Deutschland in zwei Wochen! __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hello Shawn and List, Shawn wrote: Greg H you say that O isotope is the only factor to determine pairing... your wrong there are other factors with paring meteorites. Some body told me this Yes, I said that oxygen IS needed to determine a pairing to NWA 5400, as was explained to me by the lead scientists. My comments have never been about any other meteorites when referring to the ongoing NWA 5400 pairing saga. Shawn wrote: ...I have a dieing question What is the CRE of NWA 5400? I do not know this answer. Samples of NWA 5400 were shipped to many different labs around the world where scientists are continuing to unlock the secrets of this most unique meteorite. Hope everyone has a great evening, for me, it is time to enjoy a pleasant meal! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: meteoritem...@gmail.com; gmh...@htn.net Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Mike G and Greg H and Listers, Mike G great point about how exclusivity is misconstrued with NWAs and before you know it, you have multiple pairs. Good example, NWA 2999, yeah there is a lot of pairs with that one and some say that the other pairs don't me squat and only buy the real deal. So you see that's where the problem lies with price points and collecting NWA's. I personally from a collectors stand point only collect some NWAs that I deem fit, Lunars and Mars and a couple others, but for the most part, I stay away and let the scientist do their work. But for other meteorites, I go for the historic ones and rare types with real importance, not ones that have multiple meteorite from the same parent body but with slight differences in composition. Greg H you say that O isotope is the only factor to determine pairing... your wrong there are other factors with paring meteorites. Some body told me this O isotopes don't prove that one specimen is matched with another. It is certainly possible that two separate but related meteorites will have very similar O-isotopic compositions. They also could have similar olivine Fa compositions, similar refractory lithophile abundances, etc. It is certainly very suggestive of pairing if the textures, compositions (chemical and isotopic), and CRE ages match. But more supportive would be the terrestrial residence ages, i.e., if they fell at around the same time. The best proof of pairing is if the different samples fit together. So you see there are other factors involved with pairing and I have a dieing question What is the CRE of NWA 5400? If it came from Earth 4 billion years ago that you suggested, wouldn't the CRE be around 4 billion years? I heard that the oldest CRE to this date for a stoney meteorite is around 100 million years. I find it odd that this hasn't been test when this test is simple compared to other test to prove it might have a connection to Earth. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Galactic Stone Ironworks meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 17:20:58 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi Greg and List, I wasn't trying to take a shot at anyone. But the marketplace has changed, even in the brief 3 years I have been active on it. There was a time, not long ago, that the number of stateside dealers who bought directly from the Moroccan sources could be counted on two hands - not counting buying from a wholesaler at a show like Tucson. 10 years ago, how many people were wiring money to the Moroccans for Fed-Ex packages full of meteorites that were destined for resale? I would wager that it was not very many compared to now. On Facebook alone, there are no less than 2 dozen overseas and Moroccan dealers who are selling directly to the end collector. These sellers know they can get more money for their stones by selling to a newbie dealer or end collector, than selling to a veteran dealer. I wasn't taking a shot at NWA 5400 or the Hupes. I think that nowadays, any meteorite that is offered to one dealer, is going to be offered to several dealers and collectors - to maximize profit. Our overseas friends are eager students of capitalism and they are simply applying the same lessons they have learned after years of watching their stones get sold for pennies on the dollar and then flipped onto the market of end collectors for a profit
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Greg H and Listers, I think the first secret about the NWA 5400 meteorite might be to unlock the CRE age, then I think that can support one theory or scratch one theory off and look at the other theories that have been present about NWA 5400. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !Greg Hupe gmhupe at htn.net Tue Sep 28 19:30:14 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] Planetary Pairings...Whoops! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hello Shawn and List, Shawn wrote: Greg H you say that O isotope is the only factor to determine pairing... your wrong there are other factors with paring meteorites. Some body told me this Yes, I said that oxygen IS needed to determine a pairing to NWA 5400, as was explained to me by the lead scientists. My comments have never been about any other meteorites when referring to the ongoing NWA 5400 pairing saga. Shawn wrote: ...I have a dieing question What is the CRE of NWA 5400? I do not know this answer. Samples of NWA 5400 were shipped to many different labs around the world where scientists are continuing to unlock the secrets of this most unique meteorite. Hope everyone has a great evening, for me, it is time to enjoy a pleasant meal! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Shawn Alan photophlow at yahoo.com To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Cc: meteoritemike at gmail.com; gmhupe at htn.net Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Mike G and Greg H and Listers, Mike G great point about how exclusivity is misconstrued with NWAs and before you know it, you have multiple pairs. Good example, NWA 2999, yeah there is a lot of pairs with that one and some say that the other pairs don't me squat and only buy the real deal. So you see that's where the problem lies with price points and collecting NWA's. I personally from a collectors stand point only collect some NWAs that I deem fit, Lunars and Mars and a couple others, but for the most part, I stay away and let the scientist do their work. But for other meteorites, I go for the historic ones and rare types with real importance, not ones that have multiple meteorite from the same parent body but with slight differences in composition. Greg H you say that O isotope is the only factor to determine pairing... your wrong there are other factors with paring meteorites. Some body told me this O isotopes don't prove that one specimen is matched with another. It is certainly possible that two separate but related meteorites will have very similar O-isotopic compositions. They also could have similar olivine Fa compositions, similar refractory lithophile abundances, etc. It is certainly very suggestive of pairing if the textures, compositions (chemical and isotopic), and CRE ages match. But more supportive would be the terrestrial residence ages, i.e., if they fell at around the same time. The best proof of pairing is if the different samples fit together. So you see there are other factors involved with pairing and I have a dieing question What is the CRE of NWA 5400? If it came from Earth 4 billion years ago that you suggested, wouldn't the CRE be around 4 billion years? I heard that the oldest CRE to this date for a stoney meteorite is around 100 million years. I find it odd that this hasn't been test when this test is simple compared to other test to prove it might have a connection to Earth. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Galactic Stone Ironworks meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 17:20:58 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Next message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi Greg and List, I wasn't trying to take a shot at anyone. But the marketplace has changed, even in the brief 3 years I have been active on it. There was a time, not long ago, that the number of stateside dealers who bought directly from the Moroccan sources could be counted on two hands - not counting buying from a wholesaler at a show like Tucson. 10 years ago, how many people were wiring money to the Moroccans for Fed-Ex packages full of meteorites that were destined for resale? I would wager that it was not very many
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Carl and List, Carl has plaintively asked: Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? And as I was addressed..I will answer.. Carl, what you are seeing is not the demise, but the developing seriousness and maturity of the COLLECTOR market in high end meteorites. Yes, some scientist's work is not good enough (maybe thorough enough would be more artfully put) for some collectors. No, gas analysis are no more needed, I suppose, than any other parameter..it's just that isotopes are so definitive when calling a close pairing. I, for one, will spend more for a meteorite that has all the pedigree than one that lacks a fingerprint that, if known, just might make it something other than what it is purported to be. Huge mistakes have been made. I have seen criticism of a scientist's report for cause...but I have only once seen a dealer's word attempt to negate a finding of a scientist. The recent angrite argument comes to mind. And...heaven forbid... you ARE seeing meteorites bought with the intention of not only collecting them for whatever makes the buyer's nipples hard...historic and scientific importance, additional scientific study, appearance, rarity, but his additional satisfaction in acquiring an object of virtue that provides an opportunity to pay for itself and provide a haven for disposable cash. I look upon the collection, study and hunt for meteorites as the most fun I have had for my money with my clothes on in a long time. Best to you and all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Sep 27, 2010 8:58 AM To: Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net, 'Meteorite-list List' meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, countde...@earthlink.net, Tom P. starsinthed...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! List, Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? Well, I guess anyone or institution with a whole pristine uncut and unstudied meteorite in his collection really just has a rock. Because it could not possibly be legitimate or it would have damage from study? I guess if it's not from De beers it couldn't possibly be a diamond? Only De Beers sells real diamonds . Right? A good investor should buy low and sell high. Anyone who buys at the top of the market may need to take another look at their investment strategies. I don't mean to be harsh. It's just I think as a collector it is not up to me to prove anything about pairing. That should be left to the Scientists. Sure you can ask questions about things but to distrust the word of a scientist on this public forum is not only insulting and degrading but could be detrimental to the hobby as a whole. Again, think about the tens of thousands of uncut stones out there in both private and public collections that are considered to be of a specific type of material. Have all or even any of these even had O isotopic studies done on them? I think maybe some at best . Calcalong Creek was totally verified and published as a Lunar meteorite prior to any O isotopic study ever being done on it at all. Just to name one. I know this because I have a copy of the abstract and there is NO mention of O isotopes. The point here is that we can and do trust our Scientists. I personally would trust them more than any dealer anytime. Also, collectors please keep in mind that there is no entity that *certifies* any of these so called meteorites as meteorites. Only that they are named. Yes, in order for the name to be approved they must have science done on them but there is no set requirement that they must have O isotopic studies. It is my understanding that all of these rocks paired with NWA 5400 all came from the same dealer and a certain dealer happened to buy just one of a box full of the same. I'm sure he wishes he had purchased them all but luckily he and De Beers are not the only sellers out there. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net wrote: Hi List. I specifically chose slices of NWA 5400 and NWA 6292 from Greg and Peter because of the O-anaysis. Highly regarded
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Wow - this is making my head spin. It is my understanding that the O isotope data is necessary to show the relationship to the early earth-type rocks; it has to fall on the TFL. I would think this is necessary to prove a pairing to NWA 5400. Until then, it is not 100% certain. The fact that NWA 6292 IS paired to 5400 suggests that there could be more of this unique meteorite out there. Just my thoughts, Greg S. Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:31:46 -0700 From: countde...@earthlink.net To: cdtuc...@cox.net; rickm...@earthlink.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Carl and List, Carl has plaintively asked: Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? And as I was addressed..I will answer.. Carl, what you are seeing is not the demise, but the developing seriousness and maturity of the COLLECTOR market in high end meteorites. Yes, some scientist's work is not good enough (maybe thorough enough would be more artfully put) for some collectors. No, gas analysis are no more needed, I suppose, than any other parameter..it's just that isotopes are so definitive when calling a close pairing. I, for one, will spend more for a meteorite that has all the pedigree than one that lacks a fingerprint that, if known, just might make it something other than what it is purported to be. Huge mistakes have been made. I have seen criticism of a scientist's report for cause...but I have only once seen a dealer's word attempt to negate a finding of a scientist. The recent angrite argument comes to mind. And...heaven forbid... you ARE seeing meteorites bought with the intention of not only collecting them for whatever makes the buyer's nipples hard...historic and scientific importance, additional scientific study, appearance, rarity, but his additional satisfaction in acquiring an object of virtue that provides an opportunity to pay for itself and provide a haven for disposable cash. I look upon the collection, study and hunt for meteorites as the most fun I have had for my money with my clothes on in a long time. Best to you and all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Sep 27, 2010 8:58 AM To: Richard Montgomery , 'Meteorite-list List' , countde...@earthlink.net, Tom P. Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! List, Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? Well, I guess anyone or institution with a whole pristine uncut and unstudied meteorite in his collection really just has a rock. Because it could not possibly be legitimate or it would have damage from study? I guess if it's not from De beers it couldn't possibly be a diamond? Only De Beers sells real diamonds . Right? A good investor should buy low and sell high. Anyone who buys at the top of the market may need to take another look at their investment strategies. I don't mean to be harsh. It's just I think as a collector it is not up to me to prove anything about pairing. That should be left to the Scientists. Sure you can ask questions about things but to distrust the word of a scientist on this public forum is not only insulting and degrading but could be detrimental to the hobby as a whole. Again, think about the tens of thousands of uncut stones out there in both private and public collections that are considered to be of a specific type of material. Have all or even any of these even had O isotopic studies done on them? I think maybe some at best . Calcalong Creek was totally verified and published as a Lunar meteorite prior to any O isotopic study ever being done on it at all. Just to name one. I know this because I have a copy of the abstract and there is NO mention of O isotopes. The point here is that we can and do trust our Scientists. I personally would trust them more than any dealer anytime. Also, collectors please keep in mind that there is no entity that *certifies* any of these so called meteorites as meteorites. Only
[meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hello Greg S and Listers, Now the slight problem I have with NWA's is that you really don't know how much of that stuff is out there. That can work in your favor and against you. So lets say you found an NWA and its about 1000g and you get it tested and its a new NWN. Now you can say its rare because there is only 1000g, but do you really know that for sure? From what I have seen, its not the case, and NWAs keep getting paired with each other more time then not I think that's why I tend to stay away from NWA's for that reason and others. Plus it seems that every meteorite is unique in its own right and some bank off that uniqueness and rarity to pump up the price in the NWA market. But once more is found, that type isn't that rare anymore, so that's why I stick with the historic falls, cause that event can only happen once and there is a rich history and legacy to back up that meteorite. Also the NWA 5400 is speculated to have a connection with Earth. Now in my own opinion if this was the find of the century, wouldn't you think there would be more research papers written about this monumental find that some people praise it to be? All I can find are 2 papers and the second paper doesn't even seem that promising. Good example is Almahata Sitta. That meteorite has been around since NWA 5400 and there is so much information and papers upon papers about this meteorite, and the research hasn't stop, but for the NWA 5400, its is a trickle, 2 papers whats up with that? Again, the evidence isnt there and a swashy thought out theory, which other theories have been brough up about the NWA 5400 and where it came from, more evidence please. But at the end of the day people have their reasons why they collect and some are drawn to classifications and others to historic falls. The good thing for any collector is to do research and learn what they are going to buy before they buy it. Also they learn alot more about meteorites in the process and gain a since of understanding of where meteorites came to be. If any one has the time, check out this link below, its a great paper written by Ursula B. Marvin, explaining the beginning of meteorites from a historical and scientific perspective. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996M%26PS...31..545M Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !Thunder Stone stanleygregr at hotmail.com Mon Sep 27 18:48:32 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Wow - this is making my head spin. It is my understanding that the O isotope data is necessary to show the relationship to the early earth-type rocks; it has to fall on the TFL. I would think this is necessary to prove a pairing to NWA 5400. Until then, it is not 100% certain. The fact that NWA 6292 IS paired to 5400 suggests that there could be more of this unique meteorite out there. Just my thoughts, Greg S. Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:31:46 -0700 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net To: cdtucson at cox.net; rickmont at earthlink.net; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; starsinthedirt at aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Carl and List, Carl has plaintively asked: Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? And as I was addressed..I will answer.. Carl, what you are seeing is not the demise, but the developing seriousness and maturity of the COLLECTOR market in high end meteorites. Yes, some scientist's work is not good enough (maybe thorough enough would be more artfully put) for some collectors. No, gas analysis are no more needed, I suppose, than any other parameter..it's just that isotopes are so definitive when calling a close pairing. I, for one, will spend more for a meteorite that has all the pedigree than one that lacks a fingerprint that, if known, just might make it something other than what it is purported to be. Huge mistakes have been made. I have seen criticism of a scientist's report for cause...but I have only once seen a dealer's word attempt to negate a finding of a scientist. The recent angrite argument comes to mind. And...heaven forbid... you ARE seeing meteorites bought with the intention of not only collecting them for whatever makes
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Carl, this particular extraordinary meteorite, NWA5400, is unique BECAUSE of the TFL O-analysis. This has sounded the beckoning call for exta-ordinary analysis from the position of SCIENTIFIC value, not $$ collector value. This is where the distinction is stark. We will/should-be sure to examine the reason for specific isotope analysis when science calls for it. Right? After all, a round-trip to Earth is rare. If monetary terms is the reason for one's collecting meteorites, this is crucial to science. If someone wants to take it a step further and involve $$, it only makes sense to be sure of one's investment authenticity. -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Thunder Stone stanleygr...@hotmail.com To: countde...@earthlink.net; cdtuc...@cox.net; rickm...@earthlink.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 3:48 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Wow - this is making my head spin. It is my understanding that the O isotope data is necessary to show the relationship to the early earth-type rocks; it has to fall on the TFL. I would think this is necessary to prove a pairing to NWA 5400. Until then, it is not 100% certain. The fact that NWA 6292 IS paired to 5400 suggests that there could be more of this unique meteorite out there. Just my thoughts, Greg S. Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:31:46 -0700 From: countde...@earthlink.net To: cdtuc...@cox.net; rickm...@earthlink.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Carl and List, Carl has plaintively asked: Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? And as I was addressed..I will answer.. Carl, what you are seeing is not the demise, but the developing seriousness and maturity of the COLLECTOR market in high end meteorites. Yes, some scientist's work is not good enough (maybe thorough enough would be more artfully put) for some collectors. No, gas analysis are no more needed, I suppose, than any other parameter..it's just that isotopes are so definitive when calling a close pairing. I, for one, will spend more for a meteorite that has all the pedigree than one that lacks a fingerprint that, if known, just might make it something other than what it is purported to be. Huge mistakes have been made. I have seen criticism of a scientist's report for cause...but I have only once seen a dealer's word attempt to negate a finding of a scientist. The recent angrite argument comes to mind. And...heaven forbid... you ARE seeing meteorites bought with the intention of not only collecting them for whatever makes the buyer's nipples hard...historic and scientific importance, additional scientific study, appearance, rarity, but his additional satisfaction in acquiring an object of virtue that provides an opportunity to pay for itself and provide a haven for disposable cash. I look upon the collection, study and hunt for meteorites as the most fun I have had for my money with my clothes on in a long time. Best to you and all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Sep 27, 2010 8:58 AM To: Richard Montgomery , 'Meteorite-list List' , countde...@earthlink.net, Tom P. Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! List, Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? Well, I guess anyone or institution with a whole pristine uncut and unstudied meteorite in his collection really just has a rock. Because it could not possibly be legitimate or it would have damage from study? I guess if it's not from De beers it couldn't possibly be a diamond? Only De Beers sells real diamonds . Right? A good investor should buy low and sell high. Anyone who buys at the top of the market may need to take another look at their investment strategies. I don't mean to be harsh. It's just I think as a collector it is not up to me to prove anything about pairing. That should be left to the Scientists. Sure you can ask questions
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hi List. I specifically chose slices of NWA 5400 and NWA 6292 from Greg and Peter because of the O-anaysis. Highly regarded science has been paired with the highly regarded reputations of all these gentlemen. The stones have earned their true IDs by the thorough rigors required, no short-cut exceptions. (This is not to dimisnish any future 'potential' confirmations though, since my emphasis is on 'confirmation' by the same studies.) -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: countde...@earthlink.net To: Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net; Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch; Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! List and those whose feet fit the following shoes, Peter is quoted by Greg as saying each and every suspected pairing to NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed. I empathically agree. When I, and other collectors, purchase a specimen of a rarity that commands a high price per gram, we select carefully a dealer that we know and trust to have accomplished a complete classification that includes gas analysis. Greg Hupe' has an impeccable reputation as, does Peter Marmet, of only offering a new and rare addition to the inventory with full provenance and analysis. Therefore, I buy from them. For my own reasons, I paid a premium price to have my pick of NWA 5400 when first offered by Hupe' and I don't like having my ox gored by opportunists and profiteers. There are standards that should be followed amongst gentlemen of commerce. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net Sent: Sep 25, 2010 2:06 PM To: Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com, starsinthed...@aol.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hello Peter, GregC and Tom, Peter has it right, each and EVERY suspect 'pairing' to NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed, on every stone. Most people do not know about the additional stones that 'looked' like NWA 5400, but oxygen work proved they were not paired. I even submitted samples from additional stones I sampled while in Morocco two years ago that 'looked' similar to NWA 5400, but oxygen analysis later proved them to be 'just' brachinites. NWA 5400 is one meteorite that requires these advanced analysis, no shortcuts or visual 'pairing' will cut it. As Peter pointed out, ...further studies are currently [being] made concerning NWA 5363. In other words, oxygen isotope analysis has not been completed so NWA 5363 has not been confirmed as a pairing [to NWA 5400]. The last discussion on this List during the summer months stated that. Dr. Irving had not yet received a sample of NWA 5363. But then again, which of the 30 stones, if any, were sampled and sent to him? Since we know that NWA 5363 consists of 30 (thirty) different stones totaling ~2kg, I and Dr. Irving, among others, believe that each and every stone that is considered as NWA 5363 need to be individually studied and have oxygen analysis performed, unless all 30 pieces fit neatly together as a puzzle, which they do not. As we know, visual comparisons do not make for a pairing even upon the 30 pieces where only one stone was sampled. As Dr. Irving stated, NWA 5363 will always be a suspect meteorite because of the unfinished work (no oxygen performed) and the fact that there are 30 different stones that were visually paired, tossed in a box, and then sold around the world as being paired to the one sampled NWA 5363 stone. I am not trying to further any negative discussions here, these are just the facts. If I had a stone from NWA 5363, you bet I would send a piece of that particular rock and have oxygen analysis performed, preferably by the same lab where NWA 5400 was studied. Short of that, you have, or are offering, unconfirmed stones which may or may not be paired to the NWA 5363 stone, much less NWA 5400. I will not engage into any further discussions here regarding this topic. If you have concerns about your NWA 5363 stone, contact a scientist who is willing to study your rock. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch To: Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hello Tom, Greg and list, I know that further studies are currently made concerning NWA 5363. I also
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
I have not seen anything recent, but last I read on here it had been confirmed already to be paired (5363) I have a couple nice slices of 5400 and I have to say that its awesome, and I will be sharing thin section images of it soon. Looking forward to seeing the 5363 images also! Hope everyone is doing good today. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Fri, 9/24/10, starsinthed...@aol.com starsinthed...@aol.com wrote: From: starsinthed...@aol.com starsinthed...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 8:12 PM Hi list, I am working on a batch of NWA 5363 (provisional) transmitted light Xpol images and the results are turning out very good. I was wondering what the current scoop on 5363 is. Any news of any other pairings than 6292? Does some one have the whole story on this? Thanks, Tom In a message dated 9/17/2010 11:31:09 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, p.mar...@sunrise.ch writes: Dear buyers of NWA 6292, dear list members, NWA 6292 IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Just got this info from Dr. A.J. Irving: Quote: I received an analysis of the oxygen isotope composition of NWA 6292, which plots on the terrestrial fractionation line, thus confirming that this specimen is paired with NWA 5400. I just updated my Achondrites fro sale page, incl. NWA 6292 (BRA): http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html Please note: Status of NWA 6292 is still provisional. Thank you, Peter Peter Marmet - IMCA #2747 Bern, Switzerland http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hello Tom, Greg and list, I know that further studies are currently made concerning NWA 5363. I also know that several recent finds are - strangely - NOT paired to NWA 5400, despite the fact that they look very similar. Here you can see picts of NWA 5363 (please scroll down) and NWA 6292 (paired to NWA 5400!) http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html ...and here are two picts of a thin section of NWA 5363: http://www.thinsections.ch/ts/LOD_-_ACAP_-_BRA.html(please scroll down) Best, Peter 2010/9/25 Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com: I have not seen anything recent, but last I read on here it had been confirmed already to be paired (5363) I have a couple nice slices of 5400 and I have to say that its awesome, and I will be sharing thin section images of it soon. Looking forward to seeing the 5363 images also! Hope everyone is doing good today. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Fri, 9/24/10, starsinthed...@aol.com starsinthed...@aol.com wrote: From: starsinthed...@aol.com starsinthed...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 8:12 PM Hi list, I am working on a batch of NWA 5363 (provisional) transmitted light Xpol images and the results are turning out very good. I was wondering what the current scoop on 5363 is. Any news of any other pairings than 6292? Does some one have the whole story on this? Thanks, Tom In a message dated 9/17/2010 11:31:09 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, p.mar...@sunrise.ch writes: Dear buyers of NWA 6292, dear list members, NWA 6292 IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Just got this info from Dr. A.J. Irving: Quote: I received an analysis of the oxygen isotope composition of NWA 6292, which plots on the terrestrial fractionation line, thus confirming that this specimen is paired with NWA 5400. I just updated my Achondrites fro sale page, incl. NWA 6292 (BRA): http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html Please note: Status of NWA 6292 is still provisional. Thank you, Peter Peter Marmet - IMCA #2747 Bern, Switzerland http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hello Peter, GregC and Tom, Peter has it right, each and EVERY suspect 'pairing' to NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed, on every stone. Most people do not know about the additional stones that 'looked' like NWA 5400, but oxygen work proved they were not paired. I even submitted samples from additional stones I sampled while in Morocco two years ago that 'looked' similar to NWA 5400, but oxygen analysis later proved them to be 'just' brachinites. NWA 5400 is one meteorite that requires these advanced analysis, no shortcuts or visual 'pairing' will cut it. As Peter pointed out, ...further studies are currently [being] made concerning NWA 5363. In other words, oxygen isotope analysis has not been completed so NWA 5363 has not been confirmed as a pairing [to NWA 5400]. The last discussion on this List during the summer months stated that. Dr. Irving had not yet received a sample of NWA 5363. But then again, which of the 30 stones, if any, were sampled and sent to him? Since we know that NWA 5363 consists of 30 (thirty) different stones totaling ~2kg, I and Dr. Irving, among others, believe that each and every stone that is considered as NWA 5363 need to be individually studied and have oxygen analysis performed, unless all 30 pieces fit neatly together as a puzzle, which they do not. As we know, visual comparisons do not make for a pairing even upon the 30 pieces where only one stone was sampled. As Dr. Irving stated, NWA 5363 will always be a suspect meteorite because of the unfinished work (no oxygen performed) and the fact that there are 30 different stones that were visually paired, tossed in a box, and then sold around the world as being paired to the one sampled NWA 5363 stone. I am not trying to further any negative discussions here, these are just the facts. If I had a stone from NWA 5363, you bet I would send a piece of that particular rock and have oxygen analysis performed, preferably by the same lab where NWA 5400 was studied. Short of that, you have, or are offering, unconfirmed stones which may or may not be paired to the NWA 5363 stone, much less NWA 5400. I will not engage into any further discussions here regarding this topic. If you have concerns about your NWA 5363 stone, contact a scientist who is willing to study your rock. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch To: Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hello Tom, Greg and list, I know that further studies are currently made concerning NWA 5363. I also know that several recent finds are - strangely - NOT paired to NWA 5400, despite the fact that they look very similar. Here you can see picts of NWA 5363 (please scroll down) and NWA 6292 (paired to NWA 5400!) http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html ...and here are two picts of a thin section of NWA 5363: http://www.thinsections.ch/ts/LOD_-_ACAP_-_BRA.html(please scroll down) Best, Peter 2010/9/25 Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com: I have not seen anything recent, but last I read on here it had been confirmed already to be paired (5363) I have a couple nice slices of 5400 and I have to say that its awesome, and I will be sharing thin section images of it soon. Looking forward to seeing the 5363 images also! Hope everyone is doing good today. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Fri, 9/24/10, starsinthed...@aol.com starsinthed...@aol.com wrote: From: starsinthed...@aol.com starsinthed...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 8:12 PM Hi list, I am working on a batch of NWA 5363 (provisional) transmitted light Xpol images and the results are turning out very good. I was wondering what the current scoop on 5363 is. Any news of any other pairings than 6292? Does some one have the whole story on this? Thanks, Tom In a message dated 9/17/2010 11:31:09 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, p.mar...@sunrise.ch writes: Dear buyers of NWA 6292, dear list members, NWA 6292 IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Just got this info from Dr. A.J. Irving: Quote: I received an analysis of the oxygen isotope composition of NWA 6292, which plots on the terrestrial fractionation line, thus confirming that this specimen is paired with NWA 5400. I just updated my Achondrites fro sale page, incl. NWA 6292 (BRA): http
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
List and those whose feet fit the following shoes, Peter is quoted by Greg as saying each and every suspected pairing to NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed. I empathically agree. When I, and other collectors, purchase a specimen of a rarity that commands a high price per gram, we select carefully a dealer that we know and trust to have accomplished a complete classification that includes gas analysis. Greg Hupe' has an impeccable reputation as, does Peter Marmet, of only offering a new and rare addition to the inventory with full provenance and analysis. Therefore, I buy from them. For my own reasons, I paid a premium price to have my pick of NWA 5400 when first offered by Hupe' and I don't like having my ox gored by opportunists and profiteers. There are standards that should be followed amongst gentlemen of commerce. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net Sent: Sep 25, 2010 2:06 PM To: Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com, starsinthed...@aol.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hello Peter, GregC and Tom, Peter has it right, each and EVERY suspect 'pairing' to NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed, on every stone. Most people do not know about the additional stones that 'looked' like NWA 5400, but oxygen work proved they were not paired. I even submitted samples from additional stones I sampled while in Morocco two years ago that 'looked' similar to NWA 5400, but oxygen analysis later proved them to be 'just' brachinites. NWA 5400 is one meteorite that requires these advanced analysis, no shortcuts or visual 'pairing' will cut it. As Peter pointed out, ...further studies are currently [being] made concerning NWA 5363. In other words, oxygen isotope analysis has not been completed so NWA 5363 has not been confirmed as a pairing [to NWA 5400]. The last discussion on this List during the summer months stated that. Dr. Irving had not yet received a sample of NWA 5363. But then again, which of the 30 stones, if any, were sampled and sent to him? Since we know that NWA 5363 consists of 30 (thirty) different stones totaling ~2kg, I and Dr. Irving, among others, believe that each and every stone that is considered as NWA 5363 need to be individually studied and have oxygen analysis performed, unless all 30 pieces fit neatly together as a puzzle, which they do not. As we know, visual comparisons do not make for a pairing even upon the 30 pieces where only one stone was sampled. As Dr. Irving stated, NWA 5363 will always be a suspect meteorite because of the unfinished work (no oxygen performed) and the fact that there are 30 different stones that were visually paired, tossed in a box, and then sold around the world as being paired to the one sampled NWA 5363 stone. I am not trying to further any negative discussions here, these are just the facts. If I had a stone from NWA 5363, you bet I would send a piece of that particular rock and have oxygen analysis performed, preferably by the same lab where NWA 5400 was studied. Short of that, you have, or are offering, unconfirmed stones which may or may not be paired to the NWA 5363 stone, much less NWA 5400. I will not engage into any further discussions here regarding this topic. If you have concerns about your NWA 5363 stone, contact a scientist who is willing to study your rock. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch To: Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hello Tom, Greg and list, I know that further studies are currently made concerning NWA 5363. I also know that several recent finds are - strangely - NOT paired to NWA 5400, despite the fact that they look very similar. Here you can see picts of NWA 5363 (please scroll down) and NWA 6292 (paired to NWA 5400!) http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html ...and here are two picts of a thin section of NWA 5363: http://www.thinsections.ch/ts/LOD_-_ACAP_-_BRA.html(please scroll down) Best, Peter 2010/9/25 Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com: I have not seen anything recent, but last I read on here it had been confirmed already to be paired (5363) I have a couple nice slices of 5400 and I have to say that its awesome, and I will be sharing thin section images of it soon. Looking forward to seeing the 5363 images also! Hope everyone is doing good today. Greg Catterton
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Just for the record, I own no 5363, 5400 or 6292. I have no dog in this fight. I do however, hate to see value by exclusion being called Science If the testing by Dr. Jambon is inadequate, then that is worth discussion, but this close the door quick so my piece of the pie retains it's value is wrong! Tom In a message dated 9/25/2010 8:34:08 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, countde...@earthlink.net writes: List and those whose feet fit the following shoes, Peter is quoted by Greg as saying each and every suspected pairing to NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed. I empathically agree. When I, and other collectors, purchase a specimen of a rarity that commands a high price per gram, we select carefully a dealer that we know and trust to have accomplished a complete classification that includes gas analysis. Greg Hupe' has an impeccable reputation as, does Peter Marmet, of only offering a new and rare addition to the inventory with full provenance and analysis. Therefore, I buy from them. For my own reasons, I paid a premium price to have my pick of NWA 5400 when first offered by Hupe' and I don't like having my ox gored by opportunists and profiteers. There are standards that should be followed amongst gentlemen of commerce. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net Sent: Sep 25, 2010 2:06 PM To: Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com, starsinthed...@aol.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hello Peter, GregC and Tom, Peter has it right, each and EVERY suspect 'pairing' to NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed, on every stone. Most people do not know about the additional stones that 'looked' like NWA 5400, but oxygen work proved they were not paired. I even submitted samples from additional stones I sampled while in Morocco two years ago that 'looked' similar to NWA 5400, but oxygen analysis later proved them to be 'just' brachinites. NWA 5400 is one meteorite that requires these advanced analysis, no shortcuts or visual 'pairing' will cut it. As Peter pointed out, ...further studies are currently [being] made concerning NWA 5363. In other words, oxygen isotope analysis has not been completed so NWA 5363 has not been confirmed as a pairing [to NWA 5400]. The last discussion on this List during the summer months stated that. Dr. Irving had not yet received a sample of NWA 5363. But then again, which of the 30 stones, if any, were sampled and sent to him? Since we know that NWA 5363 consists of 30 (thirty) different stones totaling ~2kg, I and Dr. Irving, among others, believe that each and every stone that is considered as NWA 5363 need to be individually studied and have oxygen analysis performed, unless all 30 pieces fit neatly together as a puzzle, which they do not. As we know, visual comparisons do not make for a pairing even upon the 30 pieces where only one stone was sampled. As Dr. Irving stated, NWA 5363 will always be a suspect meteorite because of the unfinished work (no oxygen performed) and the fact that there are 30 different stones that were visually paired, tossed in a box, and then sold around the world as being paired to the one sampled NWA 5363 stone. I am not trying to further any negative discussions here, these are just the facts. If I had a stone from NWA 5363, you bet I would send a piece of that particular rock and have oxygen analysis performed, preferably by the same lab where NWA 5400 was studied. Short of that, you have, or are offering, unconfirmed stones which may or may not be paired to the NWA 5363 stone, much less NWA 5400. I will not engage into any further discussions here regarding this topic. If you have concerns about your NWA 5363 stone, contact a scientist who is willing to study your rock. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Peter Marmet p.mar...@sunrise.ch To: Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Hello Tom, Greg and list, I know that further studies are currently made concerning NWA 5363. I also know that several recent finds are - strangely - NOT paired to NWA 5400, despite the fact that they look very similar. Here you can see picts of NWA 5363 (please scroll down) and NWA 6292 (paired to NWA 5400!) http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html ...and here are two picts of a thin section
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Tom amd List, Meteorites are not only a passion of mine, but an investment ..like stocks and bonds...or art works. The only way I have any protection for my investment is if dealers can be trusted to follow the same high standards when dealing in rarites. I'm not talking about paying ridiculous prices for new falls. Leave that to those who must have a specimen now...or think the total weight will remain a reported low. I'm talking about a specimen that was over two years in analysis, including oxygen studies, that gets released and then immediately someone in Morocco comes up with a box full of stones that a scientist, whom I personally don't think put out a complete analysis, says are paired. Further proof of the pudding is that the suspect pairings all get offered for sale...right now and at bargain prices for even what they are purported to be...That's opportunism and profiteering in my book. I'm not whining. I'll take my chances. I just obtained a beautiful crusted slice of Wold Cottage with superb provenance that I could ill afford, but I trusted the dealer and to me it's not only historic, gorgeous and rare, but a goood investment for my rapidly inflating American dollars. I am for standardization of classification and analysis. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Hi list, I am working on a batch of NWA 5363 (provisional) transmitted light Xpol images and the results are turning out very good. I was wondering what the current scoop on 5363 is. Any news of any other pairings than 6292? Does some one have the whole story on this? Thanks, Tom In a message dated 9/17/2010 11:31:09 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, p.mar...@sunrise.ch writes: Dear buyers of NWA 6292, dear list members, NWA 6292 IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Just got this info from Dr. A.J. Irving: Quote: I received an analysis of the oxygen isotope composition of NWA 6292, which plots on the terrestrial fractionation line, thus confirming that this specimen is paired with NWA 5400. I just updated my Achondrites fro sale page, incl. NWA 6292 (BRA): http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html Please note: Status of NWA 6292 is still provisional. Thank you, Peter Peter Marmet - IMCA #2747 Bern, Switzerland http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
Dear buyers of NWA 6292, dear list members, NWA 6292 IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Just got this info from Dr. A.J. Irving: Quote: I received an analysis of the oxygen isotope composition of NWA 6292, which plots on the terrestrial fractionation line, thus confirming that this specimen is paired with NWA 5400. I just updated my Achondrites fro sale page, incl. NWA 6292 (BRA): http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html Please note: Status of NWA 6292 is still provisional. Thank you, Peter Peter Marmet - IMCA #2747 Bern, Switzerland http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
