Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Hi Chris, List I for one, certainly appreciate your opinions. I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge and abilities. I'm glad you're willing to share the things you do with the List. I would miss it if you didn't. If I haven't thanked you before for the things you share, I will now. Thank you. And I mean that sincerely. List, hopefully we have reviewed at least my original post about the use of the rods all we need to. I have had someone contact me who did not elaborate but their wish was for me to stop please. I presume they are wanting fewer emails. I intend to respect that wish at least on this topic. I don't know exactly where the thread is off to now. Because I don't think some of what I see now being brought up actually pertains to my first post exactly. I believe I will have to relinquish responsibility for the thread at this juncture. I will apologize now for any headaches the number of emails to this point has caused anyone. However I must admit, I have enjoyed the discussion immensely. Thanks all, Mike in CO On Oct 14, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Here we go again with bitching about OT everything is always off topic when I comment on it. The topic was diving rods to find meteorites ...correct??? So my input on an experience with them is considered off topic??? How about this I drop this bitch fest lame list out of my email and then I wont have to read threads full of people complaining about OT all the time. Some folks on here should really go out more and live a little, then they wouldn't be so grumpy. Since this email is technically OFF TOPIC, I'll end it now. It's been nice talking to SOME of you. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO From: joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:43:27 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) OK, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to take Michael Murray up on his original proposition that started this crazy thread. I'm going to make some divining rods like Warren's dad made. Then I'll bury a 10 kilo Odessa meteorite a foot underground. I will then see if it shorts out the Earth's magnetic field enough to affect the electro-chemical reactions in my brain producing a muscular twitching resulting in the crossing of the magical rods. I will have 3 other people try it that don't know where the meteorite is buried for a sort of triple blind experiment. I will disguise the hole so they can't see it. I'll report back the results. This groundbreaking experiment will settle this silly argument once and for all. (Notice how I brought the thread back to the subject of meteorites!) Phil Whitmer --- Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Warren, Are you aware that your name (sans souci) means no worries or carefree, cheerful and unbothered by the trivia of life, one who lives in a buoyant and untroubled manner? Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Warren Sansoucie warren3...@hotmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Here we go again with bitching about OT everything is always off topic when I comment on it. The topic was diving rods to find meteorites ...correct??? So my input on an experience with them is considered off topic??? How about this I drop this bitch fest lame list out of my email and then I wont have to read threads full of people complaining about OT all the time. Some folks on here should really go out more and live a little, then they wouldn't be so grumpy. Since this email is technically OFF TOPIC, I'll end it now. It's been nice talking to SOME of you. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO From: joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:43:27 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) OK, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to take Michael Murray up on his original proposition that started this crazy thread. I'm going to make some divining rods like Warren's dad made. Then I'll bury a 10 kilo Odessa meteorite a foot underground. I will then see if it shorts out the Earth's magnetic field enough to affect the electro-chemical reactions in my brain producing a muscular twitching resulting in the crossing of the magical rods. I will have 3 other people try it that don't know where the meteorite is buried for a sort of triple blind experiment. I will disguise the hole so they can't see it. I'll report back the results. This groundbreaking experiment will settle this silly argument once and for all. (Notice how I brought the thread back to the subject of meteorites!) Phil Whitmer --- Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:06:53 -0500, you wrote: Are you aware that your name (sans souci) means no worries or carefree, cheerful and unbothered by the trivia of life, one who lives in a buoyant and untroubled manner? So-- his name is essentially Warren Peace? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric On 10/14/2010 12:04 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: No, I'm sure he believed it. People read horoscopes all the time, as well. That doesn't mean they work. People fool themselves into believing all sorts of crazy stuff. The fact that our brain finds patterns where none exist is the source of superstition! Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Years ago, an employee of the local utility company told me his foreman always kept a pair of dowsing rods in his tool truck. He said he didn't know how or why they worked, and didn't care, they were just practical to use. At the time I thought he was b'sing me. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO From: c...@alumni.caltech.edu To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:44:53 -0600 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Ouija boards work the same way. But hey... if your dad can really do this, I don't know why he isn't out claiming Randi's prize money. It should be easy pickings. My own conclusion is that the method works great for finding water pipes when you already know where they are. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Warren Sansoucie warren3...@hotmail.com To: c...@alumni.caltech.edu; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:53 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
OK, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to take Michael Murray up on his original proposition that started this crazy thread. I'm going to make some divining rods like Warren's dad made. Then I'll bury a 10 kilo Odessa meteorite a foot underground. I will then see if it shorts out the Earth's magnetic field enough to affect the electro-chemical reactions in my brain producing a muscular twitching resulting in the crossing of the magical rods. I will have 3 other people try it that don't know where the meteorite is buried for a sort of triple blind experiment. I will disguise the hole so they can't see it. I'll report back the results. This groundbreaking experiment will settle this silly argument once and for all. (Notice how I brought the thread back to the subject of meteorites!) Phil Whitmer --- Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Now see Chris, Your own issue is your reliance on the accepted for it's sake. ;) Instead of reading the words and taking them at face value, you ignore the meaning and content of the quotes, and focus on and question the origin. (dubious origin?) Typical political BS... Deflection of meaning and attention by discrediting the source. That's elementary political strategy 101, nothing more than a weak attempt to shift the focus of the debate. What's more foolish? My quoting quotes of great inventors, or your ignoring of the meaning by attacking the source of the quote? Hmmm. Frankly it doesn't matter where the quote comes from, nor does it matter who said it. What matters is the meaning behind the words. Yet you totally ignore that to try weakly at proving your own point by deflecting attention. Shame on you... Instead of understanding, you ignore it and call me a fool... ;) lol If the institutionally correct method means we rely only on the empirically evidenced and accepted, without looking at everything with an open mind, maybe we should all give up now and burn all books and shut down the internet. Dark ages anyone...? Your philosophy (on this) is the fallacy of appeal to authority you complained about last night. You are guilty of your own accusation of dependence on that accepted authority, which is the same thing. You're forgetting the most basic tenet of science, even though you try to lean on it by saying It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted but what you fail to realize is just because it's NOT accepted (yet) doesn't mean it's not possible. Of course doubt and skepticism is part of it, but people should not ignore the forest for the trees. It's not cliche because it's silly, it's cliche because it's true. Free the mind of the individual and scientific advancement is natural. People tend to stop trying if they listen to people who tell them it's unaccepted. If people didn't try, we'd have nothing. Regards, Eric P.S. I'm not referring to divining or dowsing. I'm referring to the philosophy of science, learning and knowledge in general. On 10/14/2010 12:44 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Hi All, Nuts! I can't believe all this talk about divining rods lately. So, I made myself a pair from wire clothes hanger, following Warren's instructions and went out to my side yard. My front and back yard are compeltely cemented over. I made it out about 3 feet and the rods crossed over. WTH!! I doubled back and they crossed over at the same spot! I walked over the entire yard and came back at the same spot. Yep, they crossed over! I can't wait till my sons come home so they repeat this experiment. Carl2 Warren wrote: While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:14:05 -0700, you wrote: So, I made myself a pair from wire clothes hanger, following Warren's instructions and went out to my side yard. My front and back yard are compeltely cemented over. I made it out about 3 feet and the rods crossed over. WTH!! I doubled back and they crossed over at the same spot! I walked over the entire yard and came back at the same spot. Yep, they crossed over! I can't wait till my sons come home so they repeat this experiment. To have a truly objective test, I'd propose the construction of some sort of rig that holds rods (which are precisely straight and bent to exactly 90 degrees) exactactly perpendicular to the surface, then moved at a slow, steady, speed in a precisely level track. Some sort of powered, rolling device with good shock absorbers, or something machine-guided across level, tight wires. In other words, a setup that precludes any twitches, movements out of level, changes in accelration, or any other subconcious factors that would cause a low-friction system to move and can't be eliminated by a human holding it. A real experiment attempts to eliminate all variables execpt for the one variable being tested for-- in this case, testing for movement caused by buried objects and NOT by movement on the part of the person (or machine) holding the rods. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Einstein was talking about the missing variable in all of our equations, even ones that he devised and later confounded him. It is the bread of our queries. Imagine not questioning our assupmtions. I'm not even commenting on dousing here. This is worthy of a new topic, but here I am commenting within this thread. How many of us here are willing to acknowledge that everything we know now isn't finite? If we reject concepts as unquestionable, the world is still flat, stones don't fall from the sky, and we know everything already. Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric On 10/14/2010 12:04 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: No, I'm sure he believed it. People read horoscopes all the time, as well. That doesn't mean they work. People fool themselves into believing all sorts of crazy stuff. The fact that our brain finds patterns where none exist is the source of superstition! Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Years ago, an employee of the local utility company told me his foreman always kept a pair of dowsing rods in his tool truck. He said he didn't know how or why they worked, and didn't care, they were just practical to use. At the time I thought he was b'sing me. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Hi Darren, I'd like to say first off that I don't subscribe to dowsing. I do like your logic. But, what IF one of the variables you eliminate has a direct negative effect on the conclusion? Also, I like your testing method. Though maybe a plastic rail might work better than metal wire, and there is some flex over a span of distance in the wire which could cause unwanted movement. Also, aren't wires metal? Wouldn't that variable effect the results of finding metal with the dowsing rods? I know this is kind of silly, but, if we're to find an iron meteorite with dowsing rods, I would think the entire experiment area needs to be metal-sterile. Or am I wrong? Eric On 10/14/2010 3:32 PM, Darren Garrison wrote: On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:14:05 -0700, you wrote: So, I made myself a pair from wire clothes hanger, following Warren's instructions and went out to my side yard. My front and back yard are compeltely cemented over. I made it out about 3 feet and the rods crossed over. WTH!! I doubled back and they crossed over at the same spot! I walked over the entire yard and came back at the same spot. Yep, they crossed over! I can't wait till my sons come home so they repeat this experiment. To have a truly objective test, I'd propose the construction of some sort of rig that holds rods (which are precisely straight and bent to exactly 90 degrees) exactactly perpendicular to the surface, then moved at a slow, steady, speed in a precisely level track. Some sort of powered, rolling device with good shock absorbers, or something machine-guided across level, tight wires. In other words, a setup that precludes any twitches, movements out of level, changes in accelration, or any other subconcious factors that would cause a low-friction system to move and can't be eliminated by a human holding it. A real experiment attempts to eliminate all variables execpt for the one variable being tested for-- in this case, testing for movement caused by buried objects and NOT by movement on the part of the person (or machine) holding the rods. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
