Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Law/Export and Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds
Is there a map that shows the areas of what is covered under NWA? If not, I think it would be useful to have one, not only for talking to people about meteorites but also for anyone who sells or collects NWA material. Being able to show where and what NWA is would go a long way. As for the laws - I am not sure I know enough to offer an answer. It is something I am currently researching however. From what I have seen, Algeria seems like a place that is not export friendly (not too safe either!) and would require export permits to legally own, just as Canada, Australia, Argentina, Brazil and many other countries. Does anyone know more about this or have a site/page set up on meteorite laws and exporting? I think it would be a good resource to have available. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman jgross...@usgs.gov wrote: From: Jeff Grossman jgross...@usgs.gov Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara x finds To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 11:52 AM Parts of Algeria are included in the definition of NWA. As for export laws, you tell me! Jeff On 12/19/2010 11:34 AM, Greg Catterton wrote: Thanks for the info Jeff. I have a couple questions... Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined as Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding countries. If this is the case, how do recent Lunars like NWA 2996, 4483 and 5151 become NWA stones when they were found in Algeria? Given export laws (however foolish they are) shouldnt these require export permits to own like Canadian and Argentina falls since Algeria does not allow export? Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov wrote: From: Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara x finds To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 7:44 AM There are several issues and a misconception here. Misconception: The Nomenclature Committee (NomCom) does not change the names of meteorites once they are accepted, except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g., the Gao/Guenie nomenclatural nightmare). To do so would cause endless confusion. All of the Nova meteorites were named that way when they were initially published in the Bulletin. The Sahara series, which were collected and so-named by the Labenne family, predates the NWA series by several years. In the late 1997, the Sahara meteorites were being sold under this name, several groups of scientists wanted to publish on them, and the NomCom had to figure out what to do about their names. The choices were to accept these names, convince the Labennes to rename them, or to rename them ourselves for the official announcement. For several reasons, Sahara was accepted. First, the names were already coming into widespread use, and renaming them would cause a mess. Second, it was understood that the coordinates would be released, perhaps in five years, once the area was hunted out (this never happened, but I still hope it will). The vote to establish the NWA series came in 2000, when it became clear that the Saharan nomenclature problem was growing in magnitude. It seems possible that, had the Labenne meteorites appeared after this date, NomCom would have insisted that they all be called NWA. But probably not: we thought that Tunisia, eastern Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined as Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding countries. Given all of this, probably the ideal names for the Labenne meteorites would have been Sahara 001 - Sahara xxx, but what was done was done. Jeff On 12/18/2010 2:25 PM, Greg Catterton wrote: Many will provide false information or not any at all to keep the location secret. There is a discussion elsewhere currently about a finder lying about the location to secure the material available. Algeria has laws preventing the export of meteorites, yet there are new ones coming out everyday. Even recent Lunars from there are accepted and sold. All one has to do is simply say NWA. Berduc was the same way, many were transported outside the country and claimed to have been found elsewhere. I have seen many others questioned about locations and even know of one person who has outright lied about where a stone was recovered to
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Law/Export and Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds
Hi Greg and List, I wouldn't expect to see Algeria follow the same route as Canada or Australia with permitting. The Algerian government is only a step or two better than the Taliban, so I wouldn't expect a militant regime to accommodate the bureaucracy of international meteorite trading. The situation in Chaco province with Campo is far different than the dangerous border between two countries which have gone to war in the past (Algeria and Morocco) and a region that is currently experiencing an active violent insurgency (the alliance of Al-Qaeda in Maghreb and the local GSPC). Some areas of the Sahara are war-zones and that complicates everything. Best regards, MikeG On 12/19/10, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote: Is there a map that shows the areas of what is covered under NWA? If not, I think it would be useful to have one, not only for talking to people about meteorites but also for anyone who sells or collects NWA material. Being able to show where and what NWA is would go a long way. As for the laws - I am not sure I know enough to offer an answer. It is something I am currently researching however. From what I have seen, Algeria seems like a place that is not export friendly (not too safe either!) and would require export permits to legally own, just as Canada, Australia, Argentina, Brazil and many other countries. Does anyone know more about this or have a site/page set up on meteorite laws and exporting? I think it would be a good resource to have available. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman jgross...@usgs.gov wrote: From: Jeff Grossman jgross...@usgs.gov Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara x finds To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 11:52 AM Parts of Algeria are included in the definition of NWA. As for export laws, you tell me! Jeff On 12/19/2010 11:34 AM, Greg Catterton wrote: Thanks for the info Jeff. I have a couple questions... Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined as Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding countries. If this is the case, how do recent Lunars like NWA 2996, 4483 and 5151 become NWA stones when they were found in Algeria? Given export laws (however foolish they are) shouldnt these require export permits to own like Canadian and Argentina falls since Algeria does not allow export? Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov wrote: From: Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara x finds To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 7:44 AM There are several issues and a misconception here. Misconception: The Nomenclature Committee (NomCom) does not change the names of meteorites once they are accepted, except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g., the Gao/Guenie nomenclatural nightmare). To do so would cause endless confusion. All of the Nova meteorites were named that way when they were initially published in the Bulletin. The Sahara series, which were collected and so-named by the Labenne family, predates the NWA series by several years. In the late 1997, the Sahara meteorites were being sold under this name, several groups of scientists wanted to publish on them, and the NomCom had to figure out what to do about their names. The choices were to accept these names, convince the Labennes to rename them, or to rename them ourselves for the official announcement. For several reasons, Sahara was accepted. First, the names were already coming into widespread use, and renaming them would cause a mess. Second, it was understood that the coordinates would be released, perhaps in five years, once the area was hunted out (this never happened, but I still hope it will). The vote to establish the NWA series came in 2000, when it became clear that the Saharan nomenclature problem was growing in magnitude. It seems possible that, had the Labenne meteorites appeared after this date, NomCom would have insisted that they all be called NWA. But probably not: we thought that Tunisia, eastern Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined as Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding countries. Given all of this, probably the ideal names for the Labenne meteorites would have been Sahara 001 - Sahara
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Law/Export and Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds
Did someone say NWA meteorite map...? http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/meteorite-map-saharan-desert-nwa-map-suitable-for-framing :) On 12/19/10, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote: Is there a map that shows the areas of what is covered under NWA? If not, I think it would be useful to have one, not only for talking to people about meteorites but also for anyone who sells or collects NWA material. Being able to show where and what NWA is would go a long way. As for the laws - I am not sure I know enough to offer an answer. It is something I am currently researching however. From what I have seen, Algeria seems like a place that is not export friendly (not too safe either!) and would require export permits to legally own, just as Canada, Australia, Argentina, Brazil and many other countries. Does anyone know more about this or have a site/page set up on meteorite laws and exporting? I think it would be a good resource to have available. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman jgross...@usgs.gov wrote: From: Jeff Grossman jgross...@usgs.gov Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara x finds To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 11:52 AM Parts of Algeria are included in the definition of NWA. As for export laws, you tell me! Jeff On 12/19/2010 11:34 AM, Greg Catterton wrote: Thanks for the info Jeff. I have a couple questions... Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined as Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding countries. If this is the case, how do recent Lunars like NWA 2996, 4483 and 5151 become NWA stones when they were found in Algeria? Given export laws (however foolish they are) shouldnt these require export permits to own like Canadian and Argentina falls since Algeria does not allow export? Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov wrote: From: Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara x finds To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 7:44 AM There are several issues and a misconception here. Misconception: The Nomenclature Committee (NomCom) does not change the names of meteorites once they are accepted, except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g., the Gao/Guenie nomenclatural nightmare). To do so would cause endless confusion. All of the Nova meteorites were named that way when they were initially published in the Bulletin. The Sahara series, which were collected and so-named by the Labenne family, predates the NWA series by several years. In the late 1997, the Sahara meteorites were being sold under this name, several groups of scientists wanted to publish on them, and the NomCom had to figure out what to do about their names. The choices were to accept these names, convince the Labennes to rename them, or to rename them ourselves for the official announcement. For several reasons, Sahara was accepted. First, the names were already coming into widespread use, and renaming them would cause a mess. Second, it was understood that the coordinates would be released, perhaps in five years, once the area was hunted out (this never happened, but I still hope it will). The vote to establish the NWA series came in 2000, when it became clear that the Saharan nomenclature problem was growing in magnitude. It seems possible that, had the Labenne meteorites appeared after this date, NomCom would have insisted that they all be called NWA. But probably not: we thought that Tunisia, eastern Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined as Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding countries. Given all of this, probably the ideal names for the Labenne meteorites would have been Sahara 001 - Sahara xxx, but what was done was done. Jeff On 12/18/2010 2:25 PM, Greg Catterton wrote: Many will provide false information or not any at all to keep the location secret. There is a discussion elsewhere currently about a finder lying about the location to secure the material available. Algeria has laws preventing the export of meteorites, yet there are new ones coming out everyday. Even recent Lunars from there are accepted and sold. All one has to do is simply say NWA. Berduc was the same way, many were transported
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Law/Export and Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds
There is no map. Jeff On 12/19/2010 12:05 PM, Greg Catterton wrote: Is there a map that shows the areas of what is covered under NWA? If not, I think it would be useful to have one, not only for talking to people about meteorites but also for anyone who sells or collects NWA material. Being able to show where and what NWA is would go a long way. As for the laws - I am not sure I know enough to offer an answer. It is something I am currently researching however. From what I have seen, Algeria seems like a place that is not export friendly (not too safe either!) and would require export permits to legally own, just as Canada, Australia, Argentina, Brazil and many other countries. Does anyone know more about this or have a site/page set up on meteorite laws and exporting? I think it would be a good resource to have available. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov wrote: From: Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara x finds To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 11:52 AM Parts of Algeria are included in the definition of NWA. As for export laws, you tell me! Jeff On 12/19/2010 11:34 AM, Greg Catterton wrote: Thanks for the info Jeff. I have a couple questions... Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined as Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding countries. If this is the case, how do recent Lunars like NWA 2996, 4483 and 5151 become NWA stones when they were found in Algeria? Given export laws (however foolish they are) shouldnt these require export permits to own like Canadian and Argentina falls since Algeria does not allow export? Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov wrote: From: Jeff Grossmanjgross...@usgs.gov Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara x finds To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 7:44 AM There are several issues and a misconception here. Misconception: The Nomenclature Committee (NomCom) does not change the names of meteorites once they are accepted, except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g., the Gao/Guenie nomenclatural nightmare). To do so would cause endless confusion. All of the Nova meteorites were named that way when they were initially published in the Bulletin. The Sahara series, which were collected and so-named by the Labenne family, predates the NWA series by several years. In the late 1997, the Sahara meteorites were being sold under this name, several groups of scientists wanted to publish on them, and the NomCom had to figure out what to do about their names. The choices were to accept these names, convince the Labennes to rename them, or to rename them ourselves for the official announcement. For several reasons, Sahara was accepted. First, the names were already coming into widespread use, and renaming them would cause a mess. Second, it was understood that the coordinates would be released, perhaps in five years, once the area was hunted out (this never happened, but I still hope it will). The vote to establish the NWA series came in 2000, when it became clear that the Saharan nomenclature problem was growing in magnitude. It seems possible that, had the Labenne meteorites appeared after this date, NomCom would have insisted that they all be called NWA. But probably not: we thought that Tunisia, eastern Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined as Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding countries. Given all of this, probably the ideal names for the Labenne meteorites would have been Sahara 001 - Sahara xxx, but what was done was done. Jeff On 12/18/2010 2:25 PM, Greg Catterton wrote: Many will provide false information or not any at all to keep the location secret. There is a discussion elsewhere currently about a finder lying about the location to secure the material available. Algeria has laws preventing the export of meteorites, yet there are new ones coming out everyday. Even recent Lunars from there are accepted and sold. All one has to do is simply say NWA. Berduc was the same way, many were transported outside the country and claimed to have been found elsewhere. I have seen many others questioned about locations and even know of one person who has outright lied about where a stone was recovered to keep from paying the land owner the share
